Eliza Filby: Hard Work Is a Lie, This Is What Rich People Never Tell You

28:23You know what I mean? And they're like, no, but they're still going to have to what? Well, I mean, I'm not saying that they won't have to do anything, but people like to make it seem as if they're not giving them anything. You know, one of the more honest people, funny enough about this, was Bill Gates. Bill Gates said, I'm not giving my kids, they're not inheriting anything. And people were like, whoa, what do you mean? He said, yeah, I'm giving all my money away. And they were like, whoa, what an asshole. what and bill gates was like let me let me ask he said if what i have given you with my name and with my network cannot earn you money then you don't deserve the money that i have because he he understood and understands fundamentally yeah but the inheritance goes beyond the checkbook do you know what i mean he's like i can get you into any room i can get you talking to anybody you're only thinking what's the bank account what's the bank account and so now when when you say that i actually wanted to go like to go to india i wonder if places like india are almost more honest about it because people will say i'm from a good family and things are going to go and we're going to keep this going and you're like oh you're passing it down they're like you're damn straight we are yeah do you know what i mean yeah yeah 100 there's no like hiding and there's no it's like no the lady i was i was interviewing she was like my dad was saving for my wedding and my education since, you know, basically my birth.

29:43And there's no shame in that. There is absolute pride in that. And I think that you're right. It's the openness that is there. I do think there's another element to this in American culture that's quite unique to American culture, which is quite a legal driven culture and litigious. And so therefore, you know, 41 % of Gen Zers and millennials have prenups in the US, right? And they're binding in a way that they're not in the UK. and what do you mean what do you mean not in the uk like they're they are they're sort of they're sort of binding we have a different okay legal system but prenups are incredibly important here and what a prenup does is it forces a conversation before you get married and so that culture of openness i think is also because the lawyer's going come on what's going on here what are we going to do what are we going to do and and i think why prenups have become so important and not just the kind of, you know, sort of things that celebrities do anymore, is because of the way the inheritocracy and the bank of mum and dad has changed marriage.

30:50So what's happened is, is it used to be, so there's this whole theory in sociology called assortative mating, right? Which is where, you know, the idea is that you marry someone similar to you. Yes. And in the 90s, when more and more women started going to university, what happened was, was that graduates started to partner up with graduates. Yes. And it was no longer the nurse marrying the doctor, the secretary marrying the boss. Women used to marry up. Now they were marrying their intellectual equal, right? What's happened in the last 10 years is not so much graduates marrying graduates, but one individual with the bank of mum and dad marrying another individual with the bank of mum and dad.

31:32So you're getting this sort of Jane Austen-like sort of marriage culture where if there is a divorce, it's not the son and daughter's money at stake. It's the mom and dad's. The bank of mom and dad. The bank's the mom and dad who are fighting for their cash back. So prenups become really, really important in an inheritocracy. Yeah, because you, have you seen, one of my favorite genres on TikTok is people discovering, why do you look so shocked? I'm a man of the world, Eugene. I've invited you many times and you've refused my DMs. So on TikTok. I'm on TikTok. You can follow me. No, you know, one of my favorite genres on TikTok is, like, I forget how I stumbled on it once, but it was people discovering that the person they're dating actually has inherited like a shit ton of money.

32:24or is in like line. To inherit. Yo, it is to what you just said now, you have not seen people's minds more broken by the knowledge that the person they're with is basically a pseudo prince or princess that they didn't understand. Wow. And then they'll go, hey guys, so I just discovered that the person I'm with is like the heir to whatever fortune or their parents own this mega company or they're worth whatever million dollars and whatever. And they go, we've been splitting the rent and we've been no and they both start working out yeah yeah and they both live like a trashy life they're both like struggling then they find out the other person was cosplaying the struggle and they were really in the struggle do you know what I mean and it's different eating dry bread the two of us if we both don't have money but when you find out that I was just you know what I mean you know when I after high school I worked in a student campus area in a CD store that tells you how old I am.

33:25And I would see a mixture of white and black kids who would be hanging out together because they go to the same university together. But I could see in their lifestyles outside of school that they were not the same. Others went to the township and others went to the suburbs. And that inequality of what some people have, that leg up in South Africa is very huge. But also it's been weaponized as well as to make other races look like they're being lazy or they're not being, what's the word? Or industrious, yeah. Like you're not working hard enough. They know how to use their money properly. Yeah.

33:53So until I was doing something with an insurance company that explained how most of the fortune that the Afrikaners had was built, was built through insurance. So the first, first generation. Yes, first, first generation after having a fight with the English, moving, the Boers moved. Yeah. They started having farms. Those farms were not making as much money. So they decided to start co-ops. And then they started to have insurance companies that they built. then they would put money. So the deal was the first generation to get the payout mustn't use the payout. Oh, interesting. They must use the payout to help the land and to help the kids.

34:31And then only the third one can spend the money. Yes, but by that time they already own the farm and they've used the money from the first insurance payout to make the farm viable. You've paid it forward, yeah. Then there's banks. Then they can finance from the banks and then from there from the farms they move to the cities and then that's how the houses in the suburbs were financed and the watercloves and the Cape Town and all of that. So by the time they have children in the 80s and the 90s, those children already have a grandfather that owned a farm and the dad that owns a house in Water True for Kems Bay.

35:00And then they go to school with us and then your parents are from the township. And it looks like there's something that they did wrong with their money. Meanwhile, it was just the leg up that the other were afforded to pay a minimal amount every month to guarantee that when the one passes away, a lump sum comes your way. Oh yeah, that's the biggest one. And I feel like insurance has been the biggest scam of them all to help people get rich. And a lot of black people in South Africa don't know that you can actually use insurance that way to build generational wealth. Yeah, one generation dies and from their death, you get like this beautiful rebirth.

35:32And again, like to your point, I like that you said it, not good or bad, but it's interesting how many people don't realize what mechanisms some people use to make sure that the next generation has a slingshot. So it's like your generation will die. And like if it was a game of Monopoly, the next generation gets to start with a free roll of the dice. Like they get a free six. And you're like, oh, we all started on zero. It's like, yeah, but your parents gave you a six. You know what I mean? But you write a bit about this in your book about what your mom called the black tax. Yes. And how she had to sort of support and fund her family.

36:07Other parts of her family. And I was listening to a podcast with Michelle Obama and she was referring to the fact that when she entered the White House, everyone like family, extended family, friends were like, tap, tap, help me out, help me out. There was an expectation. And she was like, she had to really hold firm and say, no, I'm A, not as rich as you think I am. And B, I have to, you know, make our family supported and good before we can then extend the help. It's one of the hardest things anyone will experience. And we know it as the black tax, but I'm sure in other cultures you can experience it as well.

36:51if you come from a group of people who have been oppressed for a very long time yeah there is a good chance that none of them have had the opportunity to accrue wealth yeah because wealth compounds right if you are on zero and your cousins are on zero and your grandparents everyone's on zero everyone's on zero everyone's on zero you are starting from scratch right the issue though is like the person who's next to you who goes oh i'm also on zero we went to the same school it's like no they aren't on zero because their first paycheck their family has no claim to it yeah because they don't need to have a claim to it do you know how liberating it is to earn a paycheck and your parents aren't calling you to say hey can you can you help us pay this off and and can you help us and and and that's something you also get into in the book is like we forget that an inheritance isn't necessarily what you get in terms of credit it's also what you get in terms of debt.

37:49Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. One thing I loved about how Trevor explained your book to me was it's almost the same as I hate it when an athlete who's naturally gifted and has all the opportunities in the world tells someone else who's not as athletic that they can do anything they put their mind to. You're still mad that guy told you you can dunk. Kill this thing. Who told you you can dunk? It was him actually. You can do it Eugene. Put your mind to it. 40 years later That's right It's the idea that we're all starting From the same point in the race We're not We're not And so the sort of pretense of that I wanted to kind of literally lift the lid on I would love to also get some To hear some research about how Advice is given Depending on the group of people it's given to For example I have a big gripe with how For example black people would be given Advice Again in insurance That say a funeral cover would be 120 ,000, 120 rand and it will cover you for 80 ,000 rand.

38:51But life cover is 250 rand and will cover you for 2 million rand. Right. But that advice will not be given to that person because they think short term, the bank will lose, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see what I'm saying? So most advice is also tailored to the kind of people that it's given to to sort of preserve also the generational wealth that props up these institutions. I know, just what wealth band you are at. Yes. Oh, definitely. Depends what risk you can take. Oh, definitely. what mechanisms you can pull, you know, the kind of advice that you get, you know, and it is. There's a different bank division that phones you.

39:24Right. Most people don't know that like there's different banks in your bank. All of a sudden, one day, if you earn enough money, someone else phones you and goes like, hey, let's talk to you about, and you're like, wait, where were you all along? And they're like, well, now you make money. And I'm like, well, I don't need you now because I make money. Why didn't you call me when I was trying to make money? well I mean I had that kind of scenario and I write about it in the book because you know being a woman there is a sort of still this perception that you know your husband is the breadwinner and I went um with my husband to go and see a financial advisor we were told to go by my in-laws because we need to sort out our money I was six months pregnant and you know immediately as I walked through that door the two financial advisors went to shake my husband's hand and kind of just sort of looked at my bump and went, when are you due?

40:14Is that kind of like, that's what you do? That's what you do. And the meeting was just like, literally, none of it directed at me. It was like, I didn't exist. And we came out of that interview and I said to my husband, I was like, we are not going with them. Like, even if we need a financial advisor, like I do not want to ever encounter those men again. And I was like reflecting on why and A, they had not obviously credited me as someone that was capable of earning or out-earning. Or even being part of the decisions. Understanding financial advice and being, thank you, being part of the decisions.

40:51I do the weekly household budget, but I'm not making the investment, the big investment decisions. And it's like, that's so short-sighted because now you are seeing what I'm calling the great gender wealth transfer because we talk about the money going from the parents to the kids. Well, quite often it doesn't go from the parents to the kids. It goes from the patriarch to the matriarch. It goes to the mum. Oh, wow. So the average, you know, the average spousal transference of wealth in the U.S. is 1.4 million. So those women are inheriting, on average in the U.S., 1.4 million, right? And women actually use their money very differently to men.

41:31You can, you know, obviously there's exceptions and nuance in that, But women are more likely to give their money during their lifetime. Yes. Men are more likely to give it at the point of death. Yeah, in a while. Women are more likely to take less risk in investments, more likely to invest in like ESG sort of investments. Right, right. And consider the wider sort of community, you know, think very differently about money to men. And there's a whole generation of women who are inheriting a lot of money who are kind of ignored by the financial services industry. And then below that, you've got Gen X, millennials and Gen Z, young women out earning a lot of young men now, a lot of single female investors and homeowners.

42:19like to ignore like more than half the population when it comes to financial advice is madness and you're right it's not just about gender it's about you know racial categories and just like the way that financial advice is a privilege for the top top tier in society i think that reminded me of um that reminded me of the the the part in your book where you're talking about the history of it all, like the origins, the backstory.

42:50A lot of people are trying to make sense of the world they live in today because they've been told a story that doesn't seem to pan out. It's not gelling. Yeah. So in the UK, if you're in London, it seems like things are going well. As soon as you leave London, you're like, whoa, what is happening here? And those numbers are deceiving. Oh, the GDP of the UK is still, and it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. One company can be the GDP of an entire nation. It doesn't mean the people in that nation actually have the money. GDP is deceiving, right? In the US, people are having a tough time and they go, but I'm doing everything.

43:23I'm working. I'm getting an education. Why is this not working out? And then you travel around the world and the stories are the same, South Africa, Australia with houses, et cetera. This is where the backstory I found was so important because you took a step back and you talked about the boomer generation and what they inherited or what they experienced at that time that they didn't realize they were experiencing. Just like walk us through that because I know my mind was blown when you broke it down step by step where you went, I think it was like their values, their education and... Yeah, so I mean the baby boomers, and let's be clear, that's a Western term, right?

43:59There was a baby boom in the US, there's a baby boom in Europe, slight baby boom in Japan, Australia, Canada. So we're talking, we're not talking about a global phenomenon here, right? That's really important. It's that generation born after the Second World War had the advantages and also the struggles, let's not forget, of that post-war period. But there is an exceptional and phenomenal period of great social mobility and wealth. So in that generation were the key beneficiaries of that. so they were had access to widening education of course they had access to particularly in the us the opening up of of the college degree and greater accessibility they had so the best educated generation in history that had access to the professions at a time when there wasn't the globalization yes of threat yes profession so if you were a college educated baby boomer who went into the professions and bought a house and got a really good pension and were quite savvy with your money, you've got a lot to pass down.

45:09So that trajectory, right? And let's remember, we're not talking about all baby boomers. We're talking about, you know, but quite a fair chunk of them experienced that period of meritocracy. I would say from really 1945 to 1979, you know, that the Thatcher and Reagan and the sort of neoliberal push is a different story. And they benefited from that. But let's be clear, there was a widening of participation in education, greater access for women and men. And then you had this massive explosion of assets and investments in the 1980s. And that has benefited them ever since. And so you've got the democratization of property owning, property ownership, and investments.

45:57And so the wealth, the access to opportunity they had, and then the access to invest and build that wealth is unprecedented and I would argue unrepeatable. And exceptional, truly exceptional. It's a moment in time. I was trying to explain it to my younger brother. And so we're discussing this and we're going through it. I mean, he's 21. So we're having this conversation, right? and he's like what do you think went wrong and you know i'm reading your book and i'm trying to and the analogy i used for him was i was thinking of video games if you if you play a video game and you get like early access sometimes what you can do is you can play the game before it comes out and i think now they've patched it in most games but what you could do is you could actually build up your stats before the game comes out so you could get all the good skins as they call them you could get all the good weapons you could get all the tools if it was like a building game you could get the houses you could build you could just build out far ahead yeah you're far ahead and then when everyone else got access they came into the game and they could not catch you now for instance like fifa was a good example i remember when we used to play fifa you would own a player in the game but you got to like buy them before the game came out so the prices were lower and then when everyone else came into the game now they had to buy the players from you but because there's more people you could charge higher amounts for the for the thing and when i I said it to my brother this way.

47:20He was like, oh, damn. He's like, wait, so this is, I was like, yeah, this is how it is. You know what I mean? Because they experienced this explosion at a time. And again, not fault. You know, you don't even make it fault in the book. It's just they experienced this explosion. Yeah. And that sets a trend in place that the next generations then have to deal with. So what you have is, and the sort of way of thinking about it is, when millennials sort of came of age in the aftermath of the financial crisis, certain things became cheap. Food, no longer cheap, but food and eating out specifically used to be, you know, was cheap.

47:56Right? Buying a coffee, avocado on toast, all of that. It became really cheap. Food used to be really expensive. It used to be a fair, much higher chunk and proportion of your income that you spent on food. What else became cheap? Travel. You know, the democratization of travel in the 21st century has been wonderful. Nothing but benefits, right? Except for the climate. What else became cheap? Tech, of course, and that universalization of the smartphone, laptop, whatever. But what became expensive? And this is the key thing. The things that were cheap for baby boomers became really expensive for millennials, their kids.

48:33So what became expensive? Healthcare in the US, of course. Education, both public college and private. And across the UK and really across the world, the cost of education goes up. Housing, of course, both renting and buying. That's the critical thing. It's both renting and buying. And so, and childcare. I shouldn't forget childcare because it's become extraordinarily expensive. So what weirdly, as millennials became adults, the big things in life, health, education, housing, childcare, became really, really expensive. And unattainable. But what became cheap was eating out, technology, travel, the three things that are synonymous with millennials.

49:20It wasn't that we loved all that avocado and coffee. The economy was literally encouraging us to indulge in those things. That's an amazing way to say, yeah. Discouraging us unless you had the bank of mom and dad. So unless you had the bank of mom and dad, you don't have access to housing, affordable healthcare, affordable education, affordable childcare. And so it's a two-part story. Number one is the baby boomers had this phenomenal experience. Again, some, not all, of access to assets, professional workplaces, investment in their pensions and wealth. And the second part of the story is millennials didn't.

50:02So their parents, those that could pass the money down. And they've been incredibly generous. And I was speaking to an economist when I was writing the book and he said to me the way I see it is they've been brilliant parents but bad citizens damn say that again say brilliant parents but they've gifted yeah as much as they can but bad citizens because ultimately it's been created and contributed to this widening inequality yeah wow good parents and bad citizens Don't go anywhere, because we got more What Now after this.

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52:18Is it still worthwhile to advise kids to get a higher education to study to become a lawyer? For example, because I was telling you, my daughter said she wants to be a lawyer. And I was like, I don't know what to tell you. But maybe study something that you enjoy.

52:35You're going to be doing it for a long time I'm just loving your dad Obviously every moment is happening in time And then there's the cliche of asking your parents What should I study? And they're like, become a lawyer Especially like African password Doctor, lawyer, engineer And I'm picturing you just like Hey, maybe just do something you like Things are tough out there because I'm the worst so it's a full 180 it's a full 180 yes because I'm the worst person to ever carry advice I mean what do I do for a living you know like I started for this I'm picturing you in Braveheart now you're just like there on your horse and you're riding along and you're like hey look guys hey they might take our land hey hey they might take everything hey let's just enjoy ourselves we're here now I'm through charge

53:32I think it's good advice But it is a question I think a lot of parents share though What advice do you give Oh my goodness If the hatches have been battened down Like what happens now So one of the things that I wanted to kind of make clear in the book Was that I was on that track Not to become a lawyer But to become an academic So I was the first person in my family to graduate And my dad was like education, education, education and he was all kind of all in, all in. And also I came of age when it was all about girls getting into education, you know. And actually, as soon as those doors were open, girls started to out, out, out, out.

54:12Destroyed us in class. Totally. Absolutely demolished us. Because we were really conscientious and good at exams. But anyway, I digress. The point is, is that then I like stayed. I did a BA and then a master's and then a PhD. And I was like, I'm on track. I'm doing everything I'm told to do. And by 31, I had a PhD. I was earning£10 ,000 a year, so about$12 ,000, I think. A year? A year. I had a PhD. I had a part-time cleaning job, which involves some quite heinous toilet cleaning. Men's or women's bathrooms? Both. Which were the worst? Both men's. Come on. You see? You see? This is what I said the other day.

54:55And then they looked at me like I was crazy. I looked at you like you were crazy. Not everyone looked at me like I was crazy. Yes, my logic. I said. People looked at, I'm sorry, people looked at me like I was crazy. Let me answer the question. I'm getting to a point. Okay, put a pin in it. Put a pin in it. Bathrooms and nipple babies. The point I want to make there, because by the way, there's, you know, my dad, his last job was as a cleaner, but there's nothing more demoralizing than thinking I've spent 10 years in education and this hasn't got me anywhere what and the only place that got me somewhere was the fact that my parents had helped support me wow so I'd like I was like hang on a minute when it was all said and done I'm like yeah when when it was all said and done the only way I could stay in London mum and dad the only way that I could basically be like you know sort of survive in London was the supplement and support that my parents were giving me at the time and he was like, you're following your passion though, aren't you?

55:55Good on you, love. You're having a good time, isn't it? I was like, I've gone wrong here. And actually the people around me that were doing well without the bank of mum and dad were the lawyers. Because actually if you look, if you track, we're doing this on our team, we're tracking different professions and what wages have kept pace with house prices and education costs and healthcare and childcare. And it's lawyers. It's not bankers. It's not engineers. And it's definitely not doctors. It's lawyers. Even in the US where doctors are certainly paid more than the UK. So lawyers are, you know, the demons of capitalism, always the bankers, right?

56:40We always bash the bankers. Those lawyers get away with it because they are getting paid very, very well, particularly obviously the ones in the big law firms. But they have their wages of outpaced house prices in the UK and the US. And that is something I don't think is talked about enough. So I think actually, go back to the law plan because I think that was a good idea. Am I staying there? Oh, wait, wait, I'm going to throw a curveball at you. Because she came up with it. I'm just going to throw a curveball just from the tech side. Don't forget that the legal space is seeing the greatest replacement of entry-level jobs by AI.

57:12so tell your daughter to study law but also tell her to become an expert no no no tell her that she should have experience in a law firm by the time she's trying to go to a law firm that is a problem which is impossible but that's the curve ball is the things that worked when we were in building our professions not working now so law actually is uniquely exposed particularly younger lawyers are exposed to to ai you know and i think because a lot of that work is like checking documents and grunt work and really totally be done by you know um an hour with the lm so so yeah you're absolutely right so you know i think maybe it's so hard i said i i you know i have two kids one's eight one's four and i just think again and again and again what skills do they need not what career path are they going to take because they're going to have multiple careers there's no way what they're doing at 21 is what they're going to be doing at 75 and they will have to work till 75 because that's just a fact because i ain't supporting them no but because because the economy is changing but like i think we fixate on this like become this become this be an engineer be a doctor because that was It's not safe before.

58:38It's not safe. What do we say now to our kids? You need skills and you need to be agile. You need to learn not what to learn, but how to learn so that you can go away. And if you need to career pivot, you can go away, concentrate, work that out and pivot. What we don't have is an education system that creates those learners. It puts you on a track. You're this. You're in that department. You're in that school. You're on that, you know, route to career. And actually what we all need to do, not just Gen Alpha, not just Gen Z, but also millennials, right? Is just be really, really sort of agile and be prepared to like pivot, switch, learn, upskill, upgrade, change direction.

59:26That agility was there before. You know, my grandfather had about 10 different careers. Yeah. And I wouldn't even have called them careers. and gambling on the side. And the only one that got in my house was gambling. Which is a career. It is a form of career. It is a form of career. But it's interesting when you say that, it makes me realize that part of the thesis of your book becomes even more clear when you look at it through that lens. Could it be that we have defined society by an exceptional moment in time? That is not the norm. Yeah. Right? So to what you just said, your grandfather, your great-grandfather, et cetera, these people had every job possible.

1:00:03And if you had the privilege of talking to someone who was way older than you, they'd say that. They'd go, I worked as a milkman. And my grandmother, she's like, I worked as a seamstress and I did this and I did that and I did that. But we're not that old and we have those stories as well. This is true. But it became, ironically, a byproduct of poverty became our gift because we couldn't become a banker. Our parents couldn't send us to become an anything. So all you had to do was hustle in that way. And you just learn to be agile and do what you can do. but it makes me wonder if we have based the entire view we have on the world on an exceptional moment in time so in this moment in time post world war ii post the world reconstructing itself this new influx of wealth this new rebuild then you will be an engineer because there's so much engineering that needs to be done you will be a banker because there's so much new banking that's going to be done.

1:00:57You can be something because there's so many new things. But as soon as entropy is reached, you're not going to see these big jumps anymore in the same way. So being becomes a lot less attractive, it seems like you're saying. Yeah. And that's in reference to what job we do. You could also apply that theory to how we live and who we live with. Because like the US, for example, you know, one in six households in the US is now multi-generational. Okay, that's three generations living under one roof Okay, that's double what it was in 1970 So we have moved, you know, ever more towards multi-generational households Which was more the norm That was the norm People forget that The norm, exactly One family, two people in one house is a crazy thing when you think about it actually Do you know what I mean?

1:01:48Yeah And so now it feels like we're just going back to what was before this anomalous moment in time Like live with your grandparents Live with your grandchildren Live with your To your point of like childcare I sometimes wonder If the cost of childcare Has shot up The way it has Because people don't live With grandparents Yeah lack of access To someone who can help you Yeah there never used to be A babysitter when we were Like that concept I only knew from TV Genuinely I don't know about you Did you ever hear Babysitter Babysitter was not a thing Because the people Who babysat Were the people Who lived in the house With you But also to be fair A lot of things in our community were not normal and they didn't have titles.

1:02:26Like, for example, there was no adoption in black families. Yeah, there was no such thing. Like your cousin would just live with you and never leave. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you'd find out now he's part of your family, but... Those moments were the worst when you found out oftentimes because they had the biscuits that were apportioned for you previously. But why was there so much guilt in giving him all the things that were yours? What do you mean? Exactly the biscuit story. Yeah. Like there would be this, oh man, you know, he's going... They would do that. Yeah. They would do that. And then now that would build resentment.

1:02:52Because now you'd see your inheritance slipping through your fingers. Because you're like, yo, you remember your grandmother's tin of biscuits. That was your inheritance. And then now all of a sudden you've got to share this with somebody else. The will has been changed. Let me tell you something, man. I still have scars. I share, but I still have scars. But that's a really important point to sort of like... We refer to how families look now. We're talking about the rise of multi-generational households, but also rising divorce and remarriage and blended families really complicates inheritance.

1:03:32Tell us more. Well, I interview one girl in the book and she came from a, she was a product of a divorce. That was how she phrased it. And her father had remarried and had married a woman who had two children. So they became his stepchildren. and there was so much in her sort of expression and voice and tone that was resentful that she knew that because essentially her relationship with her dad had become distant and his relationship with his stepchildren had become close. The money, you know, and she wasn't being materialistic. I was, you know, she was really careful to caveat that, but she was kind of like, you know, they'll get what is essentially mine.

1:04:20Damn. Yeah. And that's, you know, one example. I interviewed another guy who was saying, you know, the problem I have is that my first marriage, my children are now entering their 30s and wanting help with the house. My second marriage, my kids are going through school. So I've got like these competing priorities just in the age gap of my two families. Still help that's needed though. Yeah. And then society will tell you that one group is a failure because of that. So they'll go, well, the ones in school, you should be helping them because they need to get through school. And the ones with the house, I mean, they've got to get out there and they've just got to work.

1:04:56And society basically tells people that they're failing and their families are failing. When in fact, it's just a lack of inheritance that's basically making you make these decisions. Yeah, you put that so well. And I think you're right because in a capitalist economy, there is a right way of doing things and becoming a success, particularly in a capitalist economy that is driven by social media and comparison culture in which we have these images thrust into our eyes every second. I got a message after I published the book actually from a man in his mid-30s. And he said to me, thank you for writing this because I always felt that I'd let the system down.

1:05:45Damn, that I'd let the system down. Right. And he said, reading your book made me realize that the system let me down. Ooh. And because he hadn't had access to the bank of mom and dad, because he hadn't, you know, succeeded in education, because he, you know, he had this sense of this very pervasive sense of being a failure in modern, you know, categorization. and and i think you know that is such a powerful thing to to to sort of compute and and realize and it it is it is quite defeating to say you know your parents will determine your future yeah but it's also empowering to know that that's the system that's what i mean that's what i mean at least you know that's what i mean about the honesty of it all so to like to go back to the US one.

1:06:33I always bristled when I would hear people say. What? Bristled. He's pulling out the fine china tonight. Bristle away my friend. Bristle away. That's a great word. Yeah, like a little hedgehog or porcupine. When I would hear people say the phrase self-made I don't know why it got me. It still gets me till this day. So when I heard it, it was the one that stuck out to me was Kylie Jenner. She had done an amazing job with her beauty brand. It was whole thing. And they went, the youngest self-made billionaire. And I went, I'm not discrediting anything that she's done, but she's not self-made. And they're like, what do you mean?

1:07:13Self-made. Then I was like, no, no. She inherited everything from her family. And I'm not, again, I'm not saying she's not good at business. And I'm not saying that she didn't do well and didn't fit. No, no, no. But you cannot tell me that she didn't inherit what Kim Kardashian had worked to build by building her piece of the empire. You get in the door a lot easier and a lot quicker when you're Kim Kardashian. and then Kim Kardashian inherited from her parents. Yes. Do you know what I mean? So if you're coming from a world where you're of the Jenners and you're of the Kardashians, you've inherited something.

1:07:42And again, there's nothing wrong with that, but there's an inheritance. Jeff Bezos, self-made in his garage. What they don't tell you, is like hundreds of thousands came from family members that enabled him to start these businesses in a garage. And fail, and start, and fail. Yes, Mark Zuckerberg, same thing. People go, he just dropped out and he started. Guys, you can't just drop out of school and start these companies. You can try and maybe you will succeed and be an anomaly. But then his story also involves a bank of mom and dad injecting cash. It actually makes me laugh because in venture capital, there's a phrase, friends and family round.

1:08:19Oh, they love that. Yeah, they call it that. What is it? They call it the friends and family round. So before you ask investors that you don't know, ask investors that you do, your friends and family round. So you have different rounds of funding, right? When you start the company. And then they go, start with the friends and family round. But they call it a round. As if it's, you know, it now makes it that you're not just asking them. This is a round of funding, of course. And then to your point and what you said about a generation paying the next generation, go back and look. Google it, use AI, whatever you want to do.

1:08:55Look at how much each of these family members then got when the companies would IPO. because that's another way where you can give an inheritance back to your parents. You come from a wealthy family or you have access to wealth because of your family, right? You start this company. You take a few hundred thousand dollars. Still working hard. You lose a bit of it. You lose all of it. They give you some more. You go back in. You do it again. Things go well. They go well. They go well. They get even better. Next thing you're launching a company. It's an IPO. So, before the company lists on a stock exchange for everyone else to buy the shares, once again, there's a loophole that allows you to give friends and family shares before the thing lists.

1:09:40And now you can give them shares to a company at a price that basically is not going to exist. It doesn't exist yet. and that little investment that your dad or your mom or your dad-in-law or your mom-in-law gave you now balloons and look what you've done. Do you know what I mean? So it becomes the pre - four skins. I mean that's one way to think of it. Skins, not four skins. but I need to get it before. So it's a four. This is true. I love that. This is true. I don't think anyone who's playing video games would call them. Four skins. They are skins. There are skins in video games. Yes, but if you get the skins before.

1:10:18Before the game comes out Are they not for skins Yeah For skins Therefore they are Skins from before So you're for skinning I'm willing to accept this as a term Many rich people Are for skinning Are for skinning And so by for skinning They make sure That they're able to erect A larger fortune Got you To penetrate the market more That's exactly what it is So good Sorry We're so sorry We'll cut ourselves out of this podcast We're so sorry You've got a PhD You don't deserve this back to the toilets look at everything you've done we've taken you back to the toilets brilliant but it is that you know what i mean and and to your point that's what i mean by the honesty is like if we're honest and we're not making it good or bad it just makes it a little more it just makes it easier yeah to to navigate just tell me that your parents had that or acknowledge it's again it's not about fixing or not fixing but it's nice to know it speaks to exactly what your your writer said the one who wrote your letter who studied something you you are basically essentially lifting the veil on what people have been so ashamed to admit and it makes other people admit even better so in south africa there was a huge debate about people who say they're self-made or this term that they've pulled themselves up with their bootstraps oh yeah they love someone said you have to have boots first yeah how about that you had boots yeah for you to pull straps.

1:11:43And by the way, you can't pull yourself up by your boots. Have you tried? Try and lift yourself up by your bootstraps. See what happens. No boots for me. It is impossible. You on the other hand. It is impossible. Puss in boots. There, there, there. There, he did it. You know, actually, I like that Eugene, no, I like that Eugene brought that up because I think to what that man said to you in your writing, I feel like I have failed the system. You tackle this in a beautiful and poignant way. You make us see a generation of men now who have been framed as just like losers, basement dwellers, angry at society for no reason.

1:12:21Yeah, but when you break it down, you go, what else could you be? If you are failing and the system's telling you that you are failing because it's your fault, what would you be if not angry and completely, because you're disillusioned, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, I think the manosphere has many causes, but I think the sort of economic disfigurations are one really core element, particularly how men have suffered in the last 20 years economically, right? And, you know, one of the fastest growing demographics in the US is female breadwinners. You know, young women, young GNZ women in major cities across the US are out earning young men.

1:13:07You know, we know they're outperforming men at university in education. And it's really interesting. We did some data asking people, do you think we live in an heritocracy? Yeah. And the gender breakdown was so revealing because men were, particularly affluent men that were receiving the help from the bank of mum and dad, were most likely to say, yes, we absolutely do. But least likely to admit it. Oh, wow. Publicly. Publicly, yes. Oh, wow. So there's this sort of weird sort of scenario that women are much more likely to say, I got help from my parents than men. Men are much more likely to lean on a kind of self-made narrative.

1:14:02However, you know, sort of airbrushed. Yeah. And I think it pierces at the heart of this perception of what masculinity is all about, which is you are the breadwinner. You bring home the bacon. You did it yourself. You create the financial security that enable women to do what they need to do and, you know, and breed, breed, breed. You know, we are still so far from that being, you know, countered in society. It's so pervasive. And, you know, I remember when, you know, my husband and I, we've, I call us, we have a seesaw marriage. At one point he was earning more and then another point I was earning more.

1:14:43And so I've been a breadwinner and it's really interesting how people reacted to it. What did you notice?

1:14:53You're carrying a lot. That's what they say to you. Yeah, you're carrying the children, you're carrying the domestic burdens, but you're also carrying the financial burdens. Okay, let's just box your husband as not performing. Wow. The assumptions made, well, the reality was, was that he was doing most of the childcare, and it wasn't childcare because it's his kids. He was doing most of the domestic chores. He was being a father. I think you spend too much time with us now. I know, you've corrupted me. Oh, my God. But, you know, he was doing everything that, you know, a traditional housewife. He was being a partner.

1:15:34Right. He was being a partner. But it's incredible how we still, after 40 years of feminism, unable to accept that in society. Yes. And that's what we talk about all the time as we go. It's not about us defining. I mean, society will always shift these roles and they'll gradually move here and there. Some people would argue some traits are masculine, some are feminine. But you as a person may contain more, regardless of your gender. You may be more masculine in some things and more feminine as they've been defined. Yes. Put that aside for a second. We take for granted what it does to a society when the stories we're telling people don't match up with the realities.

1:16:14So to your point exactly, if we're telling young men these stories, then there's no reprieve in their minds. They're going, I suck, I fail, I this, I this. And then someone pops in the manosphere and goes like, hey, hey, hey, before you judge yourself, let me give you someone else to judge. Let me give you someone else to hate. Let me give you something else to be angry at. And that's a powerful outlet because then you go, deep down, I think it's me. But they've said it's not me, it's these things. But they don't point you to the thing that it is. And then to your point with women, it's the exact opposite.

1:16:47They go, I mean, he can't pay your rent. And I mean, is he going to support you and your family? And is he going to, I mean, you've got to be with a high value man. And you fail and you hear people using these terms as if human beings are only defined by their economic value. And I know people are all experiencing the pressure of the environment we're in, but we're also not able to be honest about it because the thing itself isn't honest. But I mean, to just add a counter argument. Yeah, go, please. If you look at all the data, women want high value men. Like the whole marry a guy in finance phenomenon is a consequence of an economy where it used to be you could survive on a male breadwinner salary.

1:17:27Right. Now you need two salaries. Yeah, completely. two salaries. So you actually need more than ever, you know, men to step up and to provide, particularly if the woman wants children. And obviously we are talking about heterosexual normative relationships here. There is a lot of variance and dynamics here. Of course there are, and difference. But it is quite telling that women are very economically driven when looking for a mate. No, I don't think it's a counter. I think it's exactly what I'm saying. Maybe I wasn't clear enough that's exactly what i mean right and i'm saying so okay i'll you know there's a story that always sticks with me when i think when i read you know when i'm reading economics i'm trying to understand the world um when i when i went on tour and i did shows in india one of the biggest things that strikes you in india is how close the wealth inequality gap is now i come from south africa we we have one of the highest genie coefficients in that the gap between the rich and the poor is one of the widest in the world and it's ever expanding right but because of the legacy of apartheid they've done a good job of obscuring it yeah you go to cape town they've built walls that hide it from you when you drive from the airport till you get to the mansions you know you you're in the city in johannesburg you can avoid it on the highways and you can get you can get to where you need to get to without yeah with minimal disturbance to your emotional well-being in terms of seeing how far you may or may not be from somebody else right america does it as well and it's done it for years different parts of the world have it in different ways and that's where the whole like you come from the suburbs or from the that's sort of what it was in india it's crazy how and i haven't been everywhere so please don't get me wrong this is not a blanket statement but where i went you'd be shocked at how one minute you'd be driving through as they call them the slums of india and the next thing you know there'd be a mega mansion that is one of the most beautiful buildings you've ever seen in your life.

1:19:22That close? Close. I mean, literally, not figuratively. You know when people go, a stone's throw away? Literally a stone's throw, right? And I'm with the taxi driver in the car and I said, whose house is that? And he said, that's Mr. Ambani's house. I was like, oh, Mr. And he's like, the Ambani family and they've done, and I look at it up and I'm like, wow, this building cost a few billion dollars or something. It's one family. Now I immediately apply my thinking I'm like oh you must feel terrible And this man said something fascinating He said no it's amazing I said good for them They make India proud Look at what they've done It's great to see them They're building a name all over the world We're all proud of the Ambani's And I was like huh And I said well like How does it feel for you though And he said no He said I come from a different family And he said for me and my family He said like for my caste We're not going to get there But I'm just working hard to get to the next place and now maybe in like a you know in a way that I shouldn't have I pitied him but then I realized he didn't pity himself because he was working in my opinion with a more honest reflection of what his situation was he was like oh no no no I never thought that I'm going to get there because of my family lineage so my goal is just to keep growing this thing but that's not our path and he had a peace to him that I think many people have been robbed of in the world again I'm not saying people should or shouldn't be in a downtrodden position I'm not saying that yeah but I went what would happen if somebody could say yeah I'm living in my mom's basement and I'm a 24 year old guy but my family didn't have much of an inheritance and the system has let me down and because I didn't have these things I can't go but I don't have the shame anymore because I understand that I'm in it it's not in me yeah you know what I mean and you're so you're so hit brilliant point which is it's all about expectation yes Mo Gaudet you know the of course yes yeah brilliant he has this whole theory about happiness and it's all based around expectation yes whether they're met or unmet or surpassed and and you know the guy that wrote to me and said the system has failed me had higher expectations.

1:21:35He's experienced a downward social mobility. Yes. And he had high expectations because he watched what had happened to potentially his peers and ultimately potentially even what had happened to his parents. Yeah. And so his expectations were a degree would get me this. I would have access to a house. I would have a certain sort of measure of success in this system. And it's those, yeah, unmet expectations that you didn't, you know. Yeah, it's the story that they're telling you over. And there was a book that I read that changed the way I saw it even in sports. They were like, you know, people talk about, oh, what's the best way to get into the NBA?

1:22:20And what's the best way? Well, you know, it's hard work and training. You've got to do this. And they're like, you know what? One of the best ways to get into the NBA or into the Premier League or into any of the top sports league in the world. You know what one of the best ways is? No. have parents who are athletes have a father or a mother who played sport at the highest levels you have a better chance of getting into that sport at the highest levels because to what you said earlier even beyond access which they can very big give you just the physical inheritance that they've given you genetic yeah like we we take this for granted so people will tell you all I work hard and I worked hard.

1:22:58Yeah, you did. I'm not saying you didn't. But did your dad play basketball at a high level? Yes. And did your mom? Oh, wow, look at that. Both parents played basketball at a high level and you're now in the NBA. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now after this. Exterior Remodels, Inner Monologues, brought to you by Power. The house looks good. Like, really good. That siding? Stunning. The roof? Elevated. Windows, I mean, wow. The process? Smooth. The neighbors? Jealous. Choose Power Home Remodeling and remodel how you think about remodeling. Schedule your free quote on windows, siding, roofing, and doors at powerhomeremodeling.com.

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1:24:51You know what? What I think a lot of people are not telling about the story of inheritance is how every measurable inheritance now was at some point a humble beginning. Like your grandfather winning. He didn't win a mansion, but that house became a legacy for your family. And I think now for our generation, because of, like you said, expectations that we put on ourselves, unmet ones, we're also adding what society we sort of think is expecting from us, depending on who we are, what we are, what we've studied and what we look like, based on also what we see on social media as well. Ah, yeah. There's some people who won't buy a one-bedroom flat because they think to themselves, I'm a surgeon, why would I live in a one-bedroom flat?

1:25:30But years and years ago, someone bought that one-bedroom flat and bought another one, another one, another one, and now 50 years later, the expectation of also, I think it's, I'm yet to read the book, but I hope there is a part that speaks to how we can, there was a quote that I read somewhere that said, poverty is a disease of pride because it stops you from asking for help. It stops you from starting small And it also stops you from getting paid small So you can build on something else So once you cure that I think a lot of things will be solved Expectations met And also just knowing that starting small Is something that you can use To build a legacy for your family And I do think if you look at people in their 20s I'm in my 40s I look at them and I'm like You are in your what?

1:26:1540s! I'm here midlife You're looking good in 40s! Yeah, hey, look tell you what sorry i couldn't help it no but you look at gen z right they're in their 20s and they are they are becoming like financially educated investing yeah however randomly in certain things like they are fully aware that you cannot live by salary alone that dream has died and they are fully aware of how exposed they are to ai they are fully aware that a college degree isn't the access and the entry point to opportunity that it was 20 years ago. They're so much savvier, whereas I think millennials are still, I call them the in-betweeners.

1:26:59They're like caught between two centuries, right? They're still sort of like hankering after the 20th century dream and sort of trying to sort of navigate the 21st century. And whereas true 21st century kids that have also grown up with, you know, a smartphone in their pocket since they were 13, you know, social media that yes, creates comparison, the thief of joy, but also creates aspiration. Yeah. You know, and you're not just defined by your immediate circle, your immediate community, you're on your phone seeing what's possible. Right. And, you know, that creates frustration. But unfortunately, that possibility might be out of reach.

1:27:35Yes. But it also, it does widen your world in a way that we did not have. Completely. Completely. I agree with that. You know, and it makes you think, I think. differently and bigger and I and I think it maybe is is diluting for that generation the narrative of of this is the path to success become a lawyer you know how do you how do you think it adversely affects women like specifically because you know we we we will now especially talk about like young men and I think one of the reasons I do it is because I go when young men are angry that's when shit pops off do you know what i mean like revolutions and and militias and rebel groups is groups of men who have had no like isis was one of the best examples right the u.s goes into afghanistan and that whole region there's a power vacuum it's all young men who now have no jobs they've lost families they have no hope and because of that someone corrals them all up and says we'll give you money we'll give you women and we'll give you purpose ride with us and all of a sudden you have this mini army that takes years to now counteract and the only way people counteract is by killing it as opposed to going back to its source and so it's easy to focus on that because it's almost more threatening yeah but when we look at women it almost feels like on an emotional level it's it's destabilizing it almost feels like in heritocracy at times butts up against some of the freedoms that feminism promised Right.

1:29:10Like choosing when to have your child, choosing how many children to have. Some of these become luxuries that you inherit because you did or didn't have parents that could give it to you. I know it's ironic, really, because feminism, certainly in the in the US in the 70s, was about freeing the woman from the family, you know, and enabling and the kitchen sink and, you know, kind of, you know, widening opportunities and access for women. and if you look at millennial women there and I'll tell it through one of the stories I I demonstrate in the book I spoke to to one girl who was she was she had a joint bank account with her mother and not one with her partner she wasn't married to him but they'd been together over 15 years right so her financial ties were with her mother and they had property together and they'd very much open dialogue and relationship with money with her mother.

1:30:14But she was very clear that she wanted complete separate finances from the partner. And the reason I tell that story and her as an illustration is that for the daughters of the feminist pioneers, the millennial women, they found greater financial security in the bank of mum and dad than a male partner. Not always true. I generalize hugely here and there's really important nuance. But I think one of the frustrations I see with a lot of my female friends and a lot of the narrative around motherhood in particular is what were all those feminist baby boomer women doing when they were raising their sons?

1:31:01Like, why don't they know how to change your nappy? Why don't they know how to... And actually the truth is, millennial dads are changing more nappies, pushing more prams, more school runs than any other generation of dads before them. It's not because they love their children more than any other generation of fathers before them. It's because the economics of marriage have fundamentally changed. Women have stepped up in the economic contribution to the household because they've had to, but also because they wanted to, right? But men have had to step up on the care front. And I see it, I see modern masculinity in a really positive sense being redefined around fatherhood, right?

1:31:39The public demonstration of the father, you know, father of girls, you know, father, right? It's a really positive sort of narrative around fatherhood. I see less positivity and public demonstration around elder care and looking after aging parents and people in our families. Because we're living in an aging society, right? We have fewer and fewer children. We have a ticking time bomb of an aging society and within families who historically has always done the elder care looking after the parents. We know predominantly women. So just brilliant that fathers have stepped up looking after kids. Now we need sons to change as many catheters as they're changing nappies for their babies.

1:32:24Balance it out on the other side. Because all of those hard-earned career opportunities that millennial women have done and succeeded in will be seriously under threat as their parents age and they have to look after their parents. Yeah, it's also one of those problems that has so many different prongs sticking out of it that you realize you have to just push each one in to finally get to a solution. So one of them to what you're saying is the system. if people are ashamed to live in a multi-generational family they're less likely to do that i don't know about you but i've definitely heard people say uh yeah i gotta look after my gran or there's like a little there isn't you know what i mean to your point there isn't a chest out there's somebody like oh no i look after my grandmother there's no elder care influences yeah that's true mom influences there's no elder care influences it's not it's not seen as a positive.

1:33:18And then to the second side of it, it's what you said. Populations are declining. Generations are getting older. But we don't seem to ask, in my opinion, a core question. Everyone goes like, birth rates are declining. And I see all these things that are like, could it be microplastics? It could be the microplastics. And I'm like, all right, maybe it is. I'm not a biologist. I don't know. Maybe it is. I do find it interesting though, that birth rates are not declining everywhere in the world in the same way, at the same clip. If you look at where capitalism has gone and how it's gone and how people live, more importantly, it's interesting that in poorer places where people are living like a more sustenance life, their birth rate is pretty high still.

1:34:06You know what I mean? They're still having the kids. They're still growing populations. Although it's declining at quite a rapid rate. But not even close. I'm saying like if we account for the micro, let's say we account, I'm not even saying it's microplastics. Let's say we account for that, the decline across the globe. Africa is still growing at a rate that many places in the world aren't. And I'm not saying that it is or isn't. I just wonder how much or how less likely you are to have kids in a world where you go, I do not have the resources to have these kids. Like when are you going to have your kids?

1:34:41How many conversations have we had with people Who have frozen their eggs But haven't had the kids And you go like well why aren't you having the kids They're like well I can't afford them right now But I know that I want the kids in the future So I'm going to freeze my eggs now So that I can have the kids When I have the money to have the kids And when I have the man who can help me afford To have the kids And if you look at how many times the word afford Comes into the equation You realize we've warped Part of what I believe Is a very natural thing and that is you just have kids because you are having sex.

1:35:12And we're not having frozen babies. No, they won't be frozen. Oh, they themselves. Yeah, they themselves won't be. You thaw them. But I mean, I think the conversation around fertility as a mother who had babies late, I was a geriatric mother, right? That's an official medical term. Yeah, but it's like a young age. What is the age for geriatric? I think it's 36. It's wild that they use geriatric for that. So I was a geriatric mother. You're talking to a geriatric mother here. Thank you for your service. Yeah. I breed for the world. But women historically have never had control over their fertility.

1:35:54And in some places and in different, obviously, you know, different conversations, even in this country, around controlling one's fertility and birth rights. it's a really sensitive and complex issue that deserves attention and nuance because you're absolutely right the economic um constraints and and burdens of having children now are at completely odds with perhaps what our grandfathers and grandmothers and certainly our great grandfathers having children used to be a net benefit because they used to earn money and come back and give it And spread it to the family, right? Having as many children, actually, you'd create this sort of mini economic empire.

1:36:39You're creating your inheritance. Right. Oh, wow. Now, really since the 1980s, when children started to live at home longer, now parenting is a 30-year financial commitment. With the most expensive years after 18, right? And that's how we... You think about the language we use around parenting. We invest in our children. It's an economic commitment here, right? So the way that parenting has gone is women are having fewer children. They're having them closer together. That's really important. And they're having them much later in life. And that is a product to a large degree of choice, right? Because as soon as you start educating women to tertiary level, the birth rate declines massively and they have children later.

1:37:24It's about choice. But it's also about economic burdens and the complexities of trying to find a partner. And I use gender neutral terms there deliberately, right? Because families come in many forms. And also you're seeing increasing number of women. I have many friends that are chosen single mothers that are choosing to make a child on their own steam. So the model of what a family looks like, the model of how women procreate looks like, just all looks very different. But to speak to the political point, which I think is mentioned too often, too casually, which is, you know, childcare is too expensive.

1:38:07You know, healthcare is too expensive. Education, too expensive. The economics of parenthood has become more expensive. But people had a lot more children in a lot tougher economic time. During wars. Exactly. Exactly. It's not economics, just economics, nor is it state support either. Because if you look at Scandinavia, for example. They've got some of the lowest birth rates in the world. They've got some of the best provisions in terms of paternity leave, childcare, but the lowest birth rates as well. So what we're really talking about here, which is something that no one really, I think, fully addresses, which is we've given women better options.

1:38:43This is about individualism. And you're saying we should take them away. And this is about choice. No. Okay, just making sure. It's from your tone. I was like, damn, this is going to be a spicy take. We've given women too many options. Time to take them away. We've given women options. No, that's what I was like. And do you know what? Guess what? When women are given the choice. I want to be a glitch. I was not here. Women's rights were being taken away. The point is, is that when women are given the choice, having 10 children is not what they do with their life. Right? Wow. So, you know, and I think that we have to also have a genuine conversation, a much more positive one.

1:39:20But when you have kids, it's all about sacrifice. It's a thankless task. They don't thank you. The whole point of having a child is, you know, you build it within you and you let it go. You literally push it out of you and you spend the next 20 years trying to push it out into society, hopefully, so that they can have enough resilience and independence and savviness to not, you push them out of the pride. You literally, and that's, you know, I think it's really interesting if you look at how inheritance operates in nature, is, you know, there is that sort of, let's push the kids out of the pride.

1:39:57But actually, there are other examples in nature where, you know, inheritance, material inheritance actually is a fact of life. So woodpeckers inherit trees. No. Ants inherit mounds. Yeah. Squirrels. Inherit the nuts. Yes. These nuts. Sorry I couldn't help I couldn't help it Eugene I apologize that you were caught in the crossfire I apologize that you were caught in the crossfire I am so sorry for this My friend is here I can't let him get away with that I can't let him get away with that I apologize You have inherited our friendship And I apologize for that But that's an interesting way to think of it So which one do you think is most natural For us as humans then If different animals have different inheritances, what's most natural for humans?

1:40:48Is there any literature on this? In an economy that feels fragile, it's keeping close. Okay. Yeah. Okay. When it feels danger, when it feels full of danger, full of uncertainty, fragile existence, you keep your babies close. Yes. You know, and that's why you have the situation where one in four Gen Zers take their parents to job interviews. One in four Gen Zers take their parents to job interviews. For support. Wow. For support. Or also to get them a job. Maybe the parents are actually going and the kids are having to tag along. But you're seeing a process of what I call extended adolescence. It used to be you became an adult, 18, then it was 21.

1:41:34Now it's more like 30. So what happens in the future? Because we got all these promises. I would see all these news headlines and I would see all these stories where they'd go, millennials will be the greatest inheritance generation of a lifetime. There will be trillions of dollars that because of what the parents have earned, they will. Is that still true? Is there going to be this massive boom that everyone experiences if they are the children of the boomers? I mean, inheritance is not a guarantee, right? I mean, you've got the contingency issue around elder care and that being social care being incredibly expensive.

1:42:11All the inheritance could be wiped out. You've got, as I said, the complication around blended families. You've got the fact that most millennials will inherit in their 60s. So it ain't going to them. It's probably going to go to their kids. So the intergenerational unfairness trickles down the generations, I suspect, is how it will roll. because, and it will happen differently in different countries. I mean, in the UK, for example, the tax system encourages you to give early while you're still alive. Don't wait until death. Like you'll lose it to the tax man, 40%. So give it away in life. In the US, it is slightly different.

1:42:49And Trump's amended it so that more people in the US give at the point of death, which means that millennials really inherit it a lot later. And so it may fund their retirement because they're perhaps not putting enough into their pensions that... So now it might skip a generation where it was, I guess, at some point meant to be like the next generation. Yeah, but I mean, these things are so fraught with uncertainty. Who knows what governments do? Who knows policies will change? You know, the affordability of various things in our lives will change. That's what I think is really important, what you were saying about earlier, is the script is so unclear for the 21st century.

1:43:27It really is. The education, the jobs, the path, the family unit, the various sort of expectations we had feel so sort of not abandoned, but just like irrelevant. It feels like there's three distinct conversations that are happening at the same time then. So you have the Gen Z who are, as you said, on the cusp of this new era, technology, AI, social, just a whole new world that hasn't even been defined yet and keeps changing every day. You have the boomer generation that is nearing the end of their journey, but no one knows where their wealth will go, when it goes, if it goes. And then you have the millennials, the sandwich generation who are stuck in between.

1:44:17Is there a way that each group should think? There's one more. generation. So in between the, so millennials, that's worth saying, Gen Z are those born from, and these are arbitrary date ranges, but really 1990, 1996 to about 2010. That's Gen Z. After that is Gen Alpha. And before that is millennials, 1981 to 1996. Before that is Gen X. No one really talks about them because they're actually there's not as many of them but that's those born from from 1966 to 1980 and what's interesting about them so they are generally speaking the parents of gen z okay boomers 1945 to 1965 right the parents depending on when the mother gave birth the parents of millennials now what's interesting is boomers have a lot more money than gen x gen x were the generation that really suffered the most during the financial crisis.

1:45:15We talk about millennials suffering. Actually, they were too young. It was the assets that were vulnerable were those owned by Gen X. But in America, you now have Gen Xs trying to push their kids through college, support them with everyday cost of living bills, potentially help them with a down payment on a house. They are putting twice as much money into their kids than they are their retirement. They're hedging their bets on their children. And they are not as rich as the boomers. Potentially hedging their bets on their kids. I like that. But there is a sort of that forgotten generation who are sort of entering their 60s, you know, 70s now who are actually quite vulnerable.

1:45:56So how do we think of inheritance then? You know, to go back to the premise of the book, you know, an inheritocracy. We're always told that we aim to and we live in meritocracies. You work hard and things will work out for you. And, you know, in the UK, they got rid of the monarchy so that everyone could be equal and everyone could work their best and get their best. And in America, they said, we have no monarchy. You just work your best and you will get the best. And this message really, for the most part, has permeated the globe. It's the story that everyone tells. Work hard and you will be rewarded.

1:46:31We hear about oligarchies. monogarchies, you know, we hear about, you know, straight up monarchies and oppression, but in an inheritocracy, how do you think that we should think about it? You know, because as you said in the beginning, it's not good or bad. You're always going to inherit something. So how do we then think about it in a way that will help as many people as possible because then society as a whole moves forward? That's such a great question, which I think is beyond me but I'll try I think the most important thing is to be open about it um you know generally speaking in a theotocracy and an autocracy and a meritocracy and a democracy they're quite open about what the system is they really are in an inheritocracy we need to be open not open is a kleptocracy because that one you have to call the police inquisition yes no no no I think um being open about it but then i was i was i think one of the major failures of the book is that i don't offer any solution there's no like what do we do with this information do we do we do we all become lawyers do we all like oh my god um you know just build generational wealth do we tax everything and everyone do we you know kill aspiration in the process like what is it that we need to do and the one conversation I had with an economist in the UK I think came to the right sort of conclusion which is you have to make you have to you don't want to kill inheritance you don't want to kill that aspiration of building generational wealth it's a really positive thing and it's a huge drive for a lot of people but you want to make it matter less.

1:48:29You want to build a system that makes inheritance matter less. So what levers do you need to pull in the economy? How does the education system need to change? How do you need to make nepotism not be the sort of key mechanism of access to power? What is it that needs to be done as individuals? Because there's always a point about individual responsibility in this. as communities, as professions, you know, but also in terms of governance and government. You know, what I'm realizing now as I speak to you is that there are so many ways that people have acquired a lot of wealth that they've passed down.

1:49:14And it speaks to a point that you raised earlier, that some people are ashamed to say where their wealth comes from. And I think there should be a book about how people have gotten their wealth in the first place. You know, in South Africa, obviously we have our history. in many countries they have sugar cane plantation owners, cotton farm owners, slave laborers. And now we're seeing what's happening in Nepal with kleptocracy and people stealing just generally from the public purse and their children having a great time in Soho. So I think there's a lot to be said about what inheritance is and what wealth is.

1:49:43But I think what the previous generations from us did is what we could learn is inherit their values because those values are the ones that generated the wealth that we generally are enjoying now, you know, and how to use money, what family is, what investments to make, and how to keep the family structure together. And I think, shame, they tried very hard to try and do that. But what they gave in education took less and gave them less grandchildren. There's an old sort of saying that the first generation makes it, the second generation sustains it, and the third squanders it. And it's really interesting.

1:50:18When I was writing the book, the difference I discovered talking to a first gen wealth, someone that had made the money and someone that had inherited the money, like literally, and was then passing it on. So if you've been an heir and then you will be

1:50:41someone that shares their wealth, you have a greater understanding of that responsibility of wealth, but potentially the shame that comes with that wealth, but also none of the drive that was with the builder of the wealth. Oh, wow. And it goes back to just a full circle moment on the Nepo babies. Yes. Because actually there is huge burden of inheriting wealth and really difficult weight to carry if you're, you know, not just carrying the family business or potentially the family wealth. Yeah. You know, sons of footballers. That's a really heavy, you know, legacy to pass forward. And you can also carry the family shame and guilt.

1:51:29Yeah. If you trace where the wealth came from. Yeah, huge. Oh, damn. Huge. Yeah, don't do that. Yeah. Don't follow the money. Never follow the money.

1:51:41Yeah, I don't know. Do you have a view on Nepo babies in general? I think it's really interesting how we are living culturally in an heritocracy. not just economically. So dynasties have become huge. Whether we're talking about the Kardashians, they were obviously the first. But, you know, Beyonce and Blue Ivy, whether we're talking about the Beckhams, whether we're talking about the Kennedys. Yeah, there's always been political dynasties. But I think you're like getting cultural dynasties. Social media creates the lineage. And actually it's been around long enough now that those babies are now like mini adults.

1:52:17You're right. And like you're seeing them literally grow up. Yeah, everyone's getting the deals now and doing the work. So you're seeing the next gen. And actually there's huge economic reward in being a family brand. Right. And so I feel like, I feel like in a way, the whole sort of like phenomena of Nepo babies is partly because of the sort of culture facilitating it and tech facilitating it. But it's also because we can maybe relate to them in a way that we maybe don't admit. Because a lot of us are Nepo babies to some degree. Yeah, no, I agree. You know, that TV show Succession was ostensibly about, you know, the billionaire class with their quiet luxury and their, you know, family infighting about who was going to run the family business.

1:53:05But actually, maybe we could relate to that more than we'd like to think or would have thought. because actually it was about families and money. Yeah. Which have become more and more prevalent. Yeah. Who gets the house, who gets the car, who gets the land, who gets, I mean, even small things like the closet or the, you know what I mean, like furniture. We take for granted how many things are assigned value and like where the inheritance goes. Even last names are inheritance. Oh yeah, that's very true actually. Yeah, because it opens or closes doors in some cases. never thought of it like that so I love the fact that your mom called you Trevor because there was no association yeah my mom wanted me to she just wanted something unique and random because of what Eugene is saying yeah so my mom thought at a time when a name bore it came with it especially like in in South Africa but like your name was generally your African name was a name that that meant something to the family and my mom felt like it was an inheritance of an expectation you know and so some you know like her her name is which means the one who has to give back and that's pretty much the role she played in the family you know she was the one who had to give back um and i think a lot of people have these stories where they go like oh yeah my name is that meaning but i laugh with her now and i go the irony is it became that she gave me trevor because she's like what a random crazy name that means nothing in her world and she's like i'll give him this name because i don't want him to have the expectation of being normal of being normal and then look at my life so in a way she still gave me the thing without it's i was laughing with her saying you can't avoid it all you can do is try and aim it in the direction you wish for it to go yeah because by doing that i spent my whole life being surrounded by kids who were like yeah but what's your name name then i was like trevor then they're like hey man no one's named trevor what's your name name then i was like trevor they're like hey yo you're in a safe place tell Tell us your name.

1:55:06Gabriel. No, really. And so I love that Eugene said that. It's like even your last name can be an inheritance. But this has been a great way to think about it. Like make a world where the inheritance is less important. It'll always be there, but less important. That's why I love football, Eugene. I'm trying to get him into football. But one of my favorite stories. Can I tell you? One of my favorite stories. Did I say it right? Do you know what? Yes. Yes. So one of my favorite stories is the story of Lionel Messi. Yes. Right? Arguably the greatest footballer to ever do it. When Messi was first scouted, he was seen as a prodigious talent.

1:55:47Very early on, scouts saw him and said, this boy has the potential to do things we've never seen before. However, they all noted in their scouting reports that his body was going to hold him back. They said he's too small. He's just not strong enough. He's just not big enough. We're worried. In fact, at some stage in his life, Messi wasn't growing. I think it was like a growth deficiency that he was experiencing. So he wasn't growing at the same rate as his peers. Didn't they also give him a nickname to that effect as well? I don't know, actually. The Flea. Oh, there you go. Yeah, but in Spanish.

1:56:19There you go. Could have been a little chicharone, but don't take my word for it. Messi now goes on this journey. He struggles as this young kid, super talented. but the game of football changes to your point and as Messi matures and he's like 15 16 17 the system that he's playing in starts to value kicking the ball on the ground more than kicking it up in the air and now being the tallest biggest strongest person doesn't define your success on a football pitch and all of a sudden Messi has the opportunity to become the greatest where if he came around we don't know 10 years earlier 20 years earlier it might have just ended as you are not big enough to play football and so in in that way I don't think they planned it in that in such a beautiful way but it is amazing to see what a system can do if you change it so that your inheritance is less important more people can join the game and right now we may be missing out on some of the greatest talents of a generation because they haven't inherited the tools that the system currently requires and i feel like and as a mother and as parents like i grapple with that all the time like what what is going to be valuable when he's out into the world i'm pretty sure the educational system, education system that he's in is not necessarily nurturing those skills.

1:57:52No, almost no way. And you can't really predict them either. That's what I find is difficult. I mean, we know in the age of AI to be the most human you can be, full of character, full of great communication skills, full of humor, you know, it is going to be hugely valuable. We going to be anything delivered by a human. That is like a given. So if you can be the most human you can be, we know that's going to have some currency, right? But beyond that, no idea, no idea. And as a mother, I feel that in an age where everything feels quite fragile and your urge to create certainty and safety is I've never felt so inadequate.

1:58:48Wow. And that was just literally, I came from having a really deep conversation with my husband about like, what are we going to do about schools? What's the right avenue? Because what I did doesn't necessarily work anymore. Right. I'll tell you something. 17 years in, the biggest lesson is we, as a parent, you look at the world and you look at your child as interacting. If they were an animal, you think of them as being in this big, bad jungle. Meanwhile, you don't realize that by what you've given them, what they've inherited from you, your life circumstances, they actually live in a game farm where all the animals are curated and controlled and they interact with the world according to how they behave.

1:59:34So the way they are And what they have Will determine In a big bad world Who they interact with So they'll never find themselves On the wrong side of town Because of how they grew up Automatically That stops them From going to the other end So what you must give To your kids More than anything And kids are very slick Because they don't do What you tell them to do They do what you do Yeah yeah So monkey see monkey Do situation with them Yeah yeah So they look at your values More than anything else How you treat people Which car you like Which neighbourhood you like how often you're on your phone.

2:00:05Do you watch the news or do you watch magazine shows? Do you prefer walking or do you prefer driving? And you'll see that as you get older and they get older, they'll start emulating the life that you've created. And if you're certain enough that you've created a life that you would be willing to pass on to them, they'll definitely inherit that. So all what we're giving now to our children, the guideline. Such high stakes, such high pressure. Do as I do. Yeah, it's, I think, and like coming back to where we started this conversation, when I was with my father in the last couple of weeks of his life And I wanted to soak up so much of that, who he was, what he believed in, his values.

2:00:47He was such a unique character. I just wanted to sort of envelop it as much as I possibly could as he lay there basically dying and desperate to kind of carry it on. and actually that's why I went into therapy because I knew I'd end up fucking up my kids trying to do that because the worst thing you can do as a parent is try to sort of carry the family legacy down because it's full of expectation and quite often warped values and and yeah and and actually being free from my inheritance has been what I've spent the last four years doing and And writing that book was about essentially working out the journey my parents had had, the journey I have had, and putting that to bed so that my kid doesn't have that inheritance.

2:01:43He can have much more freedom. You're doing a good job. Thanks. I feel a bit emotional. I can't think of a better way to end the conversation. This was amazing. Thank you. Thank you for, yeah, I mean, wow. I feel like we benefited more than we ever thought of. Can't wait to see if you do write another book. I can't wait to see what it'll be. No pressure right now. Don't say anything at all. We'll leave it right here. Thank you, Eugene. Thank you so much, Eliza Philby. I'm blessed that I inherited both of you for this conversation.

2:02:20Great. Thank you, y 'all. You're amazing. Thank you. Thank you. That was such fun, guys. Thank you so much. Thank you. I learned so much. Wow. Wow, that was really cool. You are deep and funny. Bless you. Deep and funny. Yeah, you are deep and funny. What a great combination.

2:02:39This episode is presented by Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods Market has everything you need for the holidays, whether you're a guest or hosting the big dinner. Whole Foods Market has convenient and cost-friendly finds that'll delight everyone at your table, plus great gift ideas, all of which follow the Whole Foods Market's strict ingredient standards. Shop for everything you need at Whole Foods Market, your holiday headquarters.

2:03:06What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Parduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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