John Oliver: Why Everything is a Scam: FIFA, Mergers, & Information Literacy

30:31My friend, do you understand how hard... There's so many things you can... So Eugene, I should give you a bit of context. Eugene A doesn't believe in football. Nope. Wait, hold on. I'm more interested in this than I use the underwater scooter. You don't believe in the concept of it? No, because I think football fans basically like other men. Because if they really love football, they would watch women's football too. But because they appreciate just watching men only play football. This argument is flawed on so many levels. Take it there. It's over for you. Take it away. What are you talking about?

31:10Also add in the fact that he also thinks it's all a scam. It's all rigged. Yeah, yeah. It's all like manufactured. It's all acted. He thinks we're watching WWE. People have been groomed from childhood. They've been put on these camps to kick this ball. They promised jerseys. Other people are being co-opted into the scam It's a world The World Cup's coming Nobody wants this shit right now America's gearing up That World Cup of ours Bought It was just for Medina Oh The World Cup was bought And that gold No For the whole spirit No no no no no no The World Cup Every World Cup is bought FIFA is a criminal organisation So first take At least we agree there First scam Yes And then So I'm getting on your argument Saying FIFA is a criminal organisation Then I'm getting off.

31:56And you are driving that argument off into crazy town. Remember. And also, it's very hard for me to admit this because I did a show called Countdown 2010, which was a magazine show for four years and I traveled the world. Yeah, you hyped us up for it. He hyped up the whole country for the World Cup. Four years attending huge sporting events, Euro Cup, CAF Africa Cup of Nations, everything, I was there. What I took away home was my salary and the fact that all of this is a scam. Oh, all of it is a scam. But the World Cup, FIFA as an organization, I have to think of it in terms of crime. You can't really think of them as a sporting organization.

32:33The sport is somehow immune from their fuckery. So I was even seeing that Zoran Mamdani had that, he had released that video. The one about ticket prices. No, was it the one just saying like FIFA, like choose the game over greed? And that was the first time with Mamdani, I'm thinking, who do you think you're talking to? If I was FIFA... He's the game over greed. But Infantino, the head of it, was just going to... I choose greed. I've always chosen greed. I've not... I've not chosen anything ever. There's no moral compass that you can appeal to here. Nothing points north in my soul. So yeah, FIFA is a terrible organization that happens to produce the best imaginable product.

33:16But those two things can't... It's like a drug organization making the best drugs. The greatest cocaine. And the worst thing is when I saw this one documentary where they spoke about the football, the ball itself, that every ball for the World Cup has a name. Or the Jaboulani, yeah. That's true. And it has its own idiosyncrasies. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And I was like, you see now. No, you don't. Someone who played a World Cup eight years ago kicked a ball that's not similar to a World Cup ball now. That's true. So you don't... Because cricket, the ball is the same. You are right about FIFA and you are wrong about football.

33:46Okay. Football is the beautiful cocaine that the Sinaloa cartel produces. It is the most beautiful thing that has ever existed. This explanation sounds better with a British accent. Well, we both have one of those. Oh, yeah. Apparently, to a FedEx driver. Yeah, to a FedEx driver, it's all the same. Oh, Johnny from Joburg here.

34:11Oh, man. But you also, do you remember, I mean, I'm sure you remember. Do you remember the piece Where you were talking To racist white South Africans Yes Oh my god Oh man you took it there Oh Oh yes Best import Let me tell you something Oh export yeah John Oliver talking to racist White South Africans And them rolling with him Yes But you know what They loved him I was what I was Of course There is something about me They like But the interesting thing is With that interview What I wanted to do Was get the ugliness Out in the open In a short space Right And so it's difficult because there is, as you well know, a polish to racism in South Africa.

34:51A real patina of dignity around the horror. So I wanted to get under this guy's skin. And I got, Louis Theroux had done some pieces in South Africa. And so one of the producers of The Daily Show had worked with Louis Theroux. So I'd asked him, hey, can you ask, is there anything, how does he get to the id of this ugliness? How do you get through all of the poise? Yeah, the pretense. Exactly. And he said, as a British person, the one knife you have is make some glib remark about the Boers and the Boer War, and all of a sudden things will change. So, like, he's sitting down in his chair and, like, he seems very confident, very media practiced.

35:34I made some comment as they're putting his thing and just the eyes change. It's like, oh, there's the human being That I came here to talk to Because the relationship between British people Or English people and Afrikaners Is quite dicey Because there's a term that they have For someone who's half Afrikaans Half British Called a salty Because you know what that means? Salty dick Yeah So it means one foot is in Africa And then the other foot is in Europe And your penis is in the ocean Which always threw me off Because I was like If you look at where you're standing I was going to say that doesn't On the map It never made sense to me Johnny from Joburg is like, yeah It never made sense to me.

36:11It's a slightly sandy right testicle. Yeah, it never made sense to me. It never made sense. Geographically, I know it's not the main problem with that term, but it doesn't seem it works on any real geographic level. That would make my Michael Jackson comment of it. But it worked. And it got you. He was immediately spiky, and it was easier to coax out the ugly. He was less poised. I always wondered when I watched you doing your pieces, I was just like, because I didn't know you at all as a person. I always remember thinking, is this how this guy is? Yeah. It's not how I am. Because I think naturally, I'm kind of non-confrontational.

36:49But in those pieces. But you love stirring shit. I love stirring shit up. You really love stirring shit. That's exactly it. I love stirring shit up more than I love being a human being. So all of a sudden, you have this excuse to be the worst version of yourself that secretly you love more than the other parts. and you get to go full sociopath. That's what Nazi officers used to say. It's the uniform. I get to be a totally different person. It's something about the Hugo Boss tailoring. Oh, man. Yeah, because you... I'm a Louis Vuitton purse. You just like... It's not me. It just makes me evil. It's that jacket.

37:27Wait, but did you know that you... So you loved that part of the job. Yes, I loved that. Did you know that you would love the hosting part of the job before you hosted, before you guest hosted? No, I was terrified of it. So John, he did this, a similar version of that conversation that he pinged on you was that he called me at home and I'm in my apartment and he said, hey, I'm going to, that movie that I've been writing, I'm going to be able to direct it. I'm going, oh, that's great. This feels like a conversation. I don't know. This can't be the first call. You're just calling everyone you know to say you're excited.

38:04So he talks about when he's going to do it over the summer. I'm like, oh, okay, great. Yeah, so what? And he went, and could you host the show for me? I went, yeah. Because he'd given me everything, I think I was just hardwired. I would say yes to everything he said. You need something from me, I will do it. Whatever that thing is, criminal or not, I'll do it. So I said yes, like it's nothing. put the phone down and then thought whoa boy what have i just agreed to and that was terrifying so then i for the month before he left i've shadowed him much more closely to work out exactly what the day is like right the parts of the day that i didn't see yes just as a writer and a correspondent on that show what things need to happen so you get a fuller understanding of what mistakes do you need to fix earlier in the day otherwise you're gonna be living inside them for the rest of the day i tell you because it's it's literally that's something people don't understand about making the daily show or like you know a version of last week tonight which is has a different process but it's it's the that first block yes that you that you start building on defines everything that's right everything everything cascades after that that first block so if you put that block just a little skew it's downhill from there by the time you get to block 100 at 5 p.m you're like why is this thing falling over and touching the ground and you're like oh it's that first block and if you didn't catch the first block early enough now you're there five trying to be like how many blocks can we go back before we can yo that's so what you learned right was a different way to look at that room than that first day that oh yeah yeah for sure what you're really you're thinking is why is this why why don't we do why is everyone so serious yeah why aren't we worrying about what the color of the blocks are yeah oh you don't want to worry about you can change the color of a block in a second yeah that's what what i realized was being in rewrites what good and bad you realize you can write jokes at the last second you can't fix part of the story quickly no otherwise you're in big big big trouble were you shocked at how much fact-checking went into making an episode of the daily show not really because i assumed like if to take big swings you're gonna have to have a system that can back you up.

40:19Otherwise, you're just not going to be able to do it for long in a country as litigious as America. So I wasn't that surprised. I certainly loved it. I loved that part of the process. And I think what we've done on our show is extrapolate that out now. So it's not just chods in a room basically just drowning in people's opinions, thinking, I'll tell you how much of this you can actually say, and then an hour later we'll have an answer for you. We have a much bigger scaled out research department now so that they can spend weeks before the writers get anywhere near a story to work out what can you say.

40:58And then you can craft the story from those ingredients. And then you can craft jokes from that story. I've always wondered why you like stirring the shit that you like stirring. because I, just because you are a shit stirrer does not necessarily mean that you choose to stir shit in every cup. Does that make sense? Why is it in the cup? Anyway. Well, I feel like that's like more shit stirry. If you're doing it in like a toilet, it's just weird. You know what I mean? I do love the feeling of trouble. Yeah, you do. But a specific type of trouble is what I've noticed. Like, maybe it's just me, but you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

41:33When I think of John Olive, I go like political shit stirring. I'm like a little bit, but not so much. But when you get into like corporate... Yeah. Yeah, you listen. I love it so much. You're a guy who almost maybe became corporate. If it wasn't for comedy, maybe you would have been in corporate, right? No, I would not. Never, never. Never. I couldn't survive in that world. I couldn't do it. That was not for me. What was the plan? There was no real plan. Did you study anything? I studied English. Wow, that's a waste. The language that you speak at home. John Q. Thank you. and do I not speak it beautifully?

42:10Can I tell you? You speak so well. Thank you. You speak so well. Has anyone told you how articulate you are? Thank you. You speak very well, John. Very well. That's what three years of higher education will give you. I didn't come in talking like this. I left that way. No, I started writing comedy at college, and then I did my first stand-up gig and it was, I imagine, how a drug addict feels when they get their first taste of something which they know is now going to alter how they live the rest of their life. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. A rug shouldn't just fit your room.

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44:25Do you remember your first joke on stage? Or your first bit that was like your... I had a bit about driving theory tests. I think, I can't remember exactly what I... About EasyJet at the time. Not great jokes, but I remember... Before EasyJet was... It was early days of EasyJet. Isn't EasyJet back now with that thing? Is it... Oh, Jet2 holiday, yeah. Yeah, no. I can't remember. It wasn't great, but the process of the feeling of it, I knew. I was at college with Richard Ayoade Do you know that guy? Oh yes, I do know Yes, yes So we wrote Richard with the glasses With the hair Yes But he's in the movies now Yes We wrote Footlights together And we did a Two man show And I remember Walking off The stage For the first night That we put our own show on Yeah And thinking I want to do this I don't know what that's going to mean I don't know where I'm going to be able to do it That's the best feeling But all of a sudden My life Became quite clear in terms of not how it was going to turn out, but what I was going to try and do.

45:31And that's a huge gift, isn't it, in many ways. Oh, no, it's the greatest gift of all. I remember my dad years, years later saying, oh, I admire that you never gave up. And it only at that point occurred to me that at some point that would have been an option. It never even crossed my mind to give up, even when from the outside it must have looked like, this is not a dignified life that you're building for yourself here. But I was so happy in it. It never crossed my mind. Where did your funny come from in the family? I mean, I don't know, survival. Is your dad, your mom, your grandfather? Who would you say you have the closest comedic?

46:14Probably my dad's dad. But my family's from Liverpool, right? And so that is a city that's been through some shit. Ah, okay, okay. that its main processing technique was often comedy. Yeah. And my granddad was a really, really funny guy. A very odd man. Okay. And loved jokes. I remember John Bishop explaining this to me. Yes. The Liverpool comedian. He was like, I was like, why are you so... And he said, honestly, he said, I'm not even the funniest person in this place. I just do it professionally. For sure. And it's just a vibe of people. It's interesting you say that because it almost feels like...

46:50Like the people of Liverpool, so many shit things happened to them that they were like, we will exist in a world of shit stirring in this world now. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's just how you survive. Gallows humor, right? Oh, yeah. Okay. And so it's the only thing that's ever made sense for me. It's the only way I've ever processed the world is through laughs. At his funeral, I did. Granddad's funeral. Yeah. He was, I wanted it to be funny. Yeah. because it felt like if this event isn't funny, this is no reflection of who he was. In many ways, in my mind as a kid, he was the guy that taught me how to misbehave because he knew it would be funny.

47:29Like, you're sitting at a table, he's like saying, just bang your cutlery like this. And like two seconds later, I'm in trouble and he's laughing. You're like, oh, I like the sound that came out of that mouth. I've caused a big problem in this room, but this guy's just chuckling to himself. Oh, why do I need to get a little bit more of that? He was your first audience. Yeah, he was. And you know what? The last time I saw him, I think I've told this story before, was he was dying in an old people's home. And he was definitely not going to be around for long. And my dad left to get the car. He was on the ground floor.

48:02And so I just thought I could leave through the door or I could like climb. There was like a little window into a hedge. And I thought, or I could just like climb out through the window and go through the hedge. And so I thought, I'll just do the hedge. So I looked up the window, climb out, like scratching through into the car park. And the last thing I heard him say to me was, you're an idiot. That's the last thing. That's the last thing he said to me. Your grandfather ever said to you. Those are the last things I heard from him out of his mouth was, you're an idiot. I remember like hearing it as I'm scratching through a hedge going, that went well.

48:35I'm glad I did that. Option B was the right choice. You don't get you're an idiot if you walk functionally through a door. who wants that oh man i love this for you like it's just like it's it's it's it's a crazy journey for me because like what i've what i've selfishly always um enjoyed about your career is i've always said to people you were the pioneer for my path you know what i mean so when i first came to the u.s one thing that was made apparently clear to me was hey uh you're nice and everything but Americans don't like people with an accent, especially doing anything in and around their world.

49:14Just keep it moving. Keep it moving. Let alone speaking about their politics. Yeah, yeah, keep it moving. You can see why though, right? Oh, completely. Yeah, there is like, it feels like you earned the right to criticize, right? And they can be questioning, I think, understandably, Americans, where is this coming from? And it was a shift for me to go often from you you do this you do this we do we because i'm an american now right uh and so uh i i play with you and we uh but there was at least a sense of ownership and again as a british person a sense of ownership in a country has a bit of an asterisk on it but it did feel like this is this isn't coming from i think there have been people who've come like done a smash and grab in america and there's no real emotional investment in it.

50:07Whereas that was not the case with me. And I don't think it was ever going to be the case with you. Yeah. But I, but I think at the time, the industry, this wasn't people, this was just the industry going, Hey, it doesn't work. Don't even bother. I remember one of my, one of my good friends, Neil Brennan, the comedian, he was, he said to me, he's like, just leave. We were in a, we were in a small little diner in Denver, Colorado. He had been performing at the improv. I'd been performing at like a, like the happy clap, whatever you know like one of the second type clubs and he was just like what are you doing here he said just go home go home i was like i'm doing comedy he's like no just he's like america won't give you just go home yeah and i'll never forget yeah but you say that but i will never forget when the switch flipped and it almost happened at the same time for both of us i had done i think two episodes of the daily show just as like a pop-in contribute to even not correspondent i just contribute and i leave contribute and i leave and someone had asked me would you do this full time i was like no there's no world where i would do this full time i just can't see the possibility and i was at home watching tv and your show came on and it was the first episode and it was about india's elections yeah and i i remember sitting on the couch and i went oh oh yeah i would oh i would do i okay okay because it was the first time i saw an american lens on the world yes not from an american but including america i was like in america yeah i was like oh yeah yeah no no i okay that's that's a possibility i was like okay i would i would i would do that and i genuine i genuinely think i wouldn't have gotten the daily show if it Genuinely Maybe I promise you Really I'm willing to bet money Six How many months did you do it?

51:53Guest hosting? Three Just three months Three months Yeah just a summer Just that three months alone I think Maybe I think there was real panic About John ever leaving And I think at least It showed That that staff Was solid enough That somebody Could do that job Temporarily Yes I still don't think There was any confidence That somebody could do it Forever Yes That someone could fill in for him in a panic. I don't think there was any real institutional confidence at Comedy Central of, oh, great, so someone else can do it. It still was very much his thing. Yeah, but you being successful even at HBO made people go, oh, there's a possibility.

52:32I think that was different. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, because I think what we were trying to do was stretch the form of it. And it took us a while, but I think that Indian election was such a gift for a first show. because to my mind, there was nothing more interesting happening in the world that week than the Indian election, the largest exercise of democracy in human history. And it was nowhere on American television, which was just wildly insular. It felt nothing is happening in America that is more interesting this week than what is about to happen in India. That was almost a gift.

53:06From there, we had to kind of get out of our system, that rhythm from the daily show where you're just reacting yeah reacting and uh we did one show that wasn't very good i remember about um immigration early on that felt like we'd done like a 10 minute headline that was really just you could have kind of done it on the daily show yeah it was stuff you'd already seen it didn't feel good luckily we had i think i i think it's that i'd shot an interview with stephen hawking that we did after that and so that was the main thing that people thought about for us the real lesson that we learned that day was that what we wanted our show to be about was showing people something they hadn't seen before yeah because it felt like then you're actually using the extra time that you got otherwise it feels like cheating it's just doing one show a week yeah yeah that you could have written in a day or two to be fair now we from that lesson on we extrapolated our process out so that we're spending six weeks on each story and you're just juggling them at the same time just moving them around and then choosing and you're and you can you can force feed any story that you like on people then you can like you have a you earn the right to have an audience that will actually sit through something that sounds unbelievably boring like mobile home financing but the moment that you get into it you realize how interesting everything is in you know this yeah everything is interesting interesting everything is interesting if you know enough about it i find exactly that's that's literally what it is so you just need to give people enough information about it for them to be able to find it interesting but that takes time you need and commercial television that is much much harder because you need you can do any any duration yeah so that is a big difference right yeah it's hard to hold people's attention you take them on a long narrative story if you're having to say six eight nine minutes in we'll be right back three minutes of twix commercials they're like i forget where i was so it's that is why it's much easier for us to be able to do like 40 minute long stories that sound like they're just in one breath because you can't leave i've always loved watching it thinking about how many enemies you make in like sometimes i genuinely think to myself i go are there moments where John maybe can't get a loan or maybe someone gives him a less favorable?

55:35No, because I think of like, how many times has your show been sued? We've been sued a bunch of, not a lot of times. We've been threatened with lawsuits, huge amounts. Okay, okay. Actual number of lawsuits is one handful, but we haven't lost any. That's the key thing. I always say to our audience Undefeated That's the thing Like it can be a fractious Albeit functional relationship With our lawyers But I think we have like A different view of their job Because I think what they think Their job is Is to stop us getting sued Yeah yeah yeah And I think their job Is to make sure that When we get sued we win Right And that That part of it Is everything that I love When you know You're in trouble The company's angry with you Your own lawyers are angry with you The only people that are excited Are the people that you work with And the audience.

56:25And the audience, yeah, the audience because they love, everyone loves watching a car crash, right? And it's so much fun to be in that position. And it feels like to me, because it's not commercial, because you have full freedom of speech as well, that it is incumbent upon you, if you're lucky enough to be in that position, to push it as hard as you can. So then are you worried at all about all the mergers and stuff that are coming? Oh, sure. I mean, this would be... Because your show would be, what is, HBO's under Warner. So if Warner gets sold, you would, if it was Netflix, you'd be under Netflix technically.

57:01Or if it was Paramount, you'd be under Paramount. Paramount, if it's Comcast, we're under Comcast. And then they might break it up as well. And then everything could go everywhere. Who knows? And it'll be like tied up in the courts. But this would not be our first merger. Oh, you were around for AT &T? This would be our third merger. How many have you been around for? We were around for, first we were taken over, Time Warner was taken over by AT &T. Okay. Then AT &T was taken over by Warner Brothers Discovery. Yeah. And then Warner Brothers Discovery is going to be taken over by company question mark.

57:32So we'll see. What do you think of the merger? I mean, I think mergers are generally bad. I think you're always hoping for the least bad option. Yeah. And I think that the key thing for us is to act with enough aggression or confidence. I will act assuming nothing is going to happen. We're not going to change. I think we've been behaving the way we've been behaving for long enough that you can't really reason with us. So there's no point in doing that. There's no, yeah, you're not going to be able to. just pictured like you and your team or like that like that village you know those those stories that they would talk about like every empire had it whether it was the romans or the mongols or whoever it was and there would always be this one village where they went they went you know what we've technically conquered this whole area yeah just leave them just just leave them just let them do their thing yeah they're just it's not worth it that you want to be that village you want to be that village so unreasonable that gigantic corporate armies just go just leave them alone that's all you want be enough trouble that you're too much trouble to deal with well i mean again it's least bad right there's no it's not like there's good options like as as played out during mergers but you know these things come with cuts i have yet to see a merger that has done well for the whole you know what i mean like yeah it's just almost it's almost like the only mergers that do well are outliers almost every merger doesn't do well i don't understand why mergers still a popular thing yeah uh i mean it's it's going to get tied up in courts because you can't really And there are going to be question marks on all of this, right?

59:17Because it's very hard to justify this legally. Now, whether that makes it impossible for it to happen, that's an open question. But again, you can't waste time worrying about something that you're not going to listen to anyway. It feels like we're just going to do what we do. Whoever they are is going to have to realize either you ignore us like that irritating village or you're going to have to take us around the back of the woodshed. Do you miss the stand up that you used to do I do I love it so much You know one of my favorite jokes Ever is a joke of yours That I never heard you tell That someone told me you told It was your R.

59:54Kelly joke The ignition joke Do you remember that It's crazy that I remember it It was just one of my favorite jokes ever So it was the John Oliver joke And the joke was It was basically you saying I hate how my brain chooses what it wants to remember And what it doesn't want And I'm paraphrasing everything But it was basically the premise was I hate how my brain chooses what it wants to remember And doesn't allow me to choose what I want to remember Because there's very important things That I want to remember in the world You know like the capital of this place Or the laws of this place But instead my brain is filled with random things Like so for instance I went to a CPR class And I learned how to do CPR Like they taught me how to do CPR And there's very specific steps that you have to do Right I also heard R.

1:00:41Kelly's Ignition song, which I know all the words too. He's like, and John was like, I've never sat down and I've never learned the words. I've never tried to remember the words, but I know them all. It's the remix to Ignition. Then you're like, when I was at the CPR class, they said to me, they were like, the CPR technique, the rhythm of it is the same as the rhythm of Ignition. Yeah, so while you're doing it, it's the remix to Ignition. Like that's what you gotta be pumping to. and then John was like but now I'm afraid that my brain will screw me up I'm going to be on a plane one day and he'll be like oh my god someone's having a heart attack can somebody come and then John's going to come in there and he'll be like ah I forgot the CPR but he's like it's the remix to Ignition Here's the amazing thing I don't remember any part of that joke at all but I do remember all the lyrics to Ignition by R.

1:01:28Kelly so that I don't know if that's my joke or not but the premise stands up R. Kelly by the way did Harrod screw him over for any purchases. They should have. Maybe that's their origin story. Maybe that's the beginning of it all, right? Is Harrods screws you over? Oh, Kelly, like Michael Jackson, is really the victim when it comes to Harrods. Leave the other women at the penthouse. Those two. But you, I mean... Why can't the out-fired family catch a break?

1:02:01No, because you love stand-up. I'm assuming you still love stand-up, right? Yeah, yeah, I still do stand-up. And you love it. I love it so much. It calms me down like nothing else. Wait, it calms you down? Trevor, I will take that surprise from anyone but you. No, no, no. You know that, right? It calms you down. Yeah, it clears your head. Fully surprised. Really? Fully surprised. You don't find it that way too? Calming? Yeah. Invigorating, I would say yes. Yeah. Calming? No. Eugene? Hmm? What do you, calming, invigorating? Which word would you use for stand-up? Avoiding. Avoiding? Sure. But how does stand-up make you feel?

1:02:38Oh, yeah. You know, every time I do stand-up, I'm like, thank God I'm naturally good at it, but I don't rely on it. Because? Because I'd be miserable. Why? Doing what? If it's all I had to do, I'd die. So when I do it, I'm going, I'm not going to suck. I know that. So thank God for that part. Okay. But I'm like, thank God I don't have to come back here every day and do this thing to survive. Huh. Ah. So that's why I think every comedian has a different, like, I don't hate it. Calm, I don't get, John. No. And I don't get nervous. Because when you first said, thank goodness I'm so prenaturally talented at this, you sounded like Cristiano Ronaldo at that point.

1:03:20No, no, no. You wouldn't even get the reference or he'll think he's just some kind of puppet from the CIA. No, no, no. But, oh, no, no. Eugene knows everyone in football just to troll people who know football. Where I understand is that, like, the grind of standing, especially when you're starting off, right, where it is such a slog just to get by. I am very grateful that I don't have to do that exclusively, but I would never not want to do it at all. Yes. Yeah, but I'm saying... English summed it up nicely. That's three years. Three years has paid off. No, but calm, yeah, calm I don't get, genuinely.

1:03:58So for you, it's calming, you... I find it, yeah, it clears my head like nothing else. I think just like the process of it, The fact it's, you know, our show is so collaborative. There are so many moving parts. There is a simplicity, a directness to stand up that you can't really replicate. It's just, it's like, it's a fundamentally selfish exercise, right? And there's something I love about the social side of it. The fact that you are not socializing, like you can be an isolated person among a lot of people okay like you can you're with a lot of people but you're alone yeah like you're there's a purpose to your day you can structure everything around that see that what was your what what is your stand-up day what's your well it depends like here i get to do once a month at the beacon with seth okay no but i'm saying like just a stand-up day if i'm if i'm on the road what's your routine what would you do from from the morning from the time you wake up what time do you wake up and then what's your day before you go on stage well you see it changed over the year because i had kids so my body clock is not what it was i used to have the stand-up body clock where i could happily just sleep past noon and do it now i now i'm stuck between two worlds because my body wants to get up at six o 'clock when my kids are getting up where they are so i'm kind of up then so for me doing stand-up right now what i'm really because i'm not kind of i'm not in that regular routine it's kind of trying to break the routine of the way my mind works okay for writing okay got it the show and structuring the show it's getting it back into so exactly it's a vacation it's to it's trying to think about jokes in the stand-up form which you know it is different right It is different.

1:05:52There are jokes you would love on the daily show that you know would not work. And similarly, stand-up jokes that wouldn't work in the form of the daily show. So, yeah, it's really just about trying to keep my love for stand-up alive, despite the fact I don't get to do it enough. Yeah. Yeah. I did it a whole bunch during the strike, just because it was the best way to... Oh, yeah, there was like, now you're off the show, and now you can go out there, and you can do something. Yeah, so I just scrambled a whole bunch of dates and did a lot of... That was the most I've done it. So for a few months, I was out constantly because it felt like it was the only way that I could help the staff pay, but also just the only way that it was going to stop my head from exploding.

1:06:31Are your kids funny? Yes, they are. Thank goodness. God, that would be wild.

1:06:40Do you remember when they asked Cristiano Ronaldo? They're like, your son's really good. Do you think he'll be as good as you? And he was like, no. He's like, no, I don't think he'll ever be as good as me. He's like, he'll never be as good as me. He's not focused. He drinks Coca-Cola. He's just like full. I was like, yo, bro. Not even like a, yeah, he has it in. He's like, nah, bro. He's like this kid. Nah. He doesn't have it in him to be the best. Yeah, but at least he didn't lie. We have one kid that's been lied to and is in the NBA now. Wow. Who are we talking about? Wow. Who are we talking about, Trevor?

1:07:10Who are we talking about? Because we have residency here. Who are we talking about? Oh. I'm not going to engage in your shit-stirring-ness at all. In a cup? At all. Not even in a plastic cup. At all. Shit, he's staring in a plastic cup. At? Not even ceramic. At all. Just plastic cup. No chance. With a wooden spoon. Zero. Not even nada. Are you trying to bring Trevor into a high-profile NBA? This guy's trying to bring me into beefs. That's what Eugene tries to do. You're trying to suck him all the way into a beef? This guy's trying to bring me into beefs. I don't like the way you said suck him.

1:07:39Suck him into. Into. Yeah, but that's what stuck out. Say it again. Suck him into. Yeah, but your suck him is strong. I'm not going to lie. It felt like there was suction involved there Your sucking is strong I will say that And after he said that I just said This is the remix to Hard and straight out the kitchen Mama what a song By the way Is Daniel Kitson going to come do more comedy on this I hope so I hope so yeah I mean he's the greatest That's one of your favourite comedians I heard his name from you for the first time You guys are very close friends He's my best man at my wedding So you know what's funny I feel like you and Daniel Have a relationship like me and Eugene We have a relationship This is what I'm talking about See I love it See what you just did there So like it's where two people meet You're similar but you're not the same You have like a comedic undercurrent That connects you When I met Daniel I felt like I knew him because of you Daniel Kitson is in my opinion The greatest comedian That most people do not know But if you know comedy he has to be in like your top five yeah he's very good where did you see him everywhere i could everywhere i could uh australia oh sure yeah yeah melbourne um edinburgh loves late shows he yeah but again the myth around him is people i don't know if you've heard any of these people be like oh the daniel kitson he does shows at 1201 or 1159 because he likes how that yeah and you're like wait they're like he does a show at 12 03 midnight and you're like and i heard all these myths about him yeah or he only does a show at 1 p.m because he wants real comedy fans and then i met him i was like yo man i have to ask you about some of these myths i'm sorry and then daniel was just like he's like oh i i put the show on at 12 03 because then it's the next day otherwise if you put on at midnight it screws up most booking systems so he's like that's why i did there's much more practical thing i think i think there's it's a bit of a hangover from the fact that when he won the Perrier Award, you know, the big award in Edinburgh, I think that came with...

1:09:46That's the Ballon d 'Or of... Yeah, it is. That's right, see? Yeah, it's the Ballon d 'Or of comedy, right? In that I imagine you think you have to pay for it somehow. Is that right? Yep. If Coptic has her way... Yeah, when he won that, all of a sudden he was finding there were people coming to his shows that he didn't necessarily want there. He didn't want... The commercial success. No, yeah, he wanted... He wanted to do his show the way he wanted to do it. He didn't want people there who he didn't want in his audience. This makes complete sense. And so he needed to get rid of some of that by making it more difficult than it necessarily needed to be.

1:10:26So it was a filtering system and it worked because Perrier back then was such a gravitational force as an award. It was huge. All of a sudden you are plunged into a certain kind of career and he did not want that. So that came with a need to do things his own way. Yeah, but the fact that he chose that, that's what I feel like with you in some ways is like, I don't think it's a choice though. No, but you have this thing where, how can I put it? So some people are famous because of what they do and they love that fame. Yeah. Right? And then there are other people who have jobs that are just attached to fame.

1:11:10And if they could, they would slice that out of their lives. That's how I feel about you. You have a very like, even if you win an award, you have a very like. I cannot wait to get off because it's the weirdest place to be. And it's not a funny place to be. So I cannot wait. The only thing I like is when they play you off. I love the feeling of being played off. an awards ceremony so the music I love it so much the thing that I just it's just it's such an absurd situation to have to be interrupted by an orchestra it's just I love it okay but help me help me understand what is it about because everyone has a different reason that's why I'm interested what is it about the fame or the spotlight or the anything that just like makes you just a little even now look at your body even now I don't like it.

1:12:04It's not, I don't like it. I'm very conscious of the fact that because our show has become well-known, I am the face of that show. And so there are things that you can do with that in terms of protecting your ability to say what you want, to not conform to a corporation who employs you. Yeah, totally. Yeah, you can do whatever you want. So the value of it is extreme there. That's the utility of fame, as you put it, is that you can do what you want in your show. Everything else around it, it is not for me. I don't have any kind of real connection to it at all. That's the comic's curse, right? You want people to love you, but you want them to love you at your own terms.

1:12:53Or you want them to love what you do, I would even say. Yeah, but they have to love you because there's nothing else to distract them from you. But it feels like it's two different. I was talking to this little girl in my kids' class. And Arkelia getting closer and closer. No, no, no. Same parallel song. She was, she was, she's at my kids' school. And she was, I think, at the start of a season, we had like pictures, we had posters on the subway. And so she was very confused about like, why is there a picture of you on the subway? That's hilarious. And so I was trying to explain to her, oh, I just do a show.

1:13:33And so they're trying to advertise that show. And she went, oh, I don't know what that means. Oh, I just, I do a TV show. And so we need people to know about it. And so then she said, are you famous? I went, I don't think I'm famous because you're asking me this question. So I don't think I'm, I don't, like the people that watch, there's some people watch the show. Most people don't. So those people do know me. No one else knows. and you know me, right? You know me as Marzi's dad, so there's nothing... You don't need to worry about this. And she said, I'm not worried about this at all. You're worried about Marzi.

1:14:07She's like, I don't know what's happening to you right now. I just asked, why is there a picture? You're having an existential crisis in front of you. I'm six years old. How am I the mature person? I just asked. oh man have you had the fame uh conversation with your kids do your kids know how famous you are no initially how old are your kids initially i didn't they're 10 and 7 now initially i didn't because there's no need to right and so i would if i just ran these people in the streets uh like i would say who's that i'll say oh that's just a friend like after after so many times then you realize hold on new york what a friendly city everyone says actually that's not the city that you live in so then i and i didn't want to lie to them right i didn't want kids at school to know things they didn't yeah that was the problem when you realize oh i think there are other kids that know that i figured it out yeah they figured it out and you feel like the only ones who don't yeah something's being kept from you i didn't want that to be the case so i kind of explained to them as best i could they came to see one show the one thing that i thought that would be fun for them to see was when we were messing with that New Zealand Bird of the Year contest.

1:15:21Did you ever see about that? I was dressed up like the Puteke Deki. So I'm like in this huge, colorful bird costume. Is this how you chose your kids to see you? Yes. This is the only time they've been to my work. I'm dressed like a giant, colorful bird. And then I realize that in their heads, understandably, they think that's happening every week. They think I'm Big Bird. Your suit is in your car. That's your uniform. Six months later, like I'm going to work and he said, have you got the bird costume? What bird costume? Oh, shit. Yeah, that was just a one-off. I just wear a suit. But it's hard.

1:16:05It's impossible for a kid to understand because it's not. It's important for them to know what you're doing. But the more you describe it, the worse it sounds. It's just, yeah. It's weird. But I found if you explain it to kids, like using class dynamics, they get it. Because they have their pictures up on walls. People know the class captain. Do you get what I'm saying? What did you tell your daughter? Which daughter is this? Is it the daughter for the show that we're going to fictitiously? Are they twins? Which daughter is this? I didn't, I haven't acknowledged that. And you know that. You're bringing that up.

1:16:53You're returning fire because of that NBA thing. Oh, man. Now you're trying to suck me into some shit. How this guy. I suck. Which daughter is this? What did you say? I think I didn't have to say much because we spent so much time together. Obviously, when people recognize you, they would recognize you from the thing that you do. So my thing was always denying it and say, we look alike. And she'd be like, no, it's him. Oh Like when people Will be like Eugene Don't lie How do you describe Stand up I don't Yeah All I said was They came to When I was down Last December I was doing the Candy Center So they came And I said This is where I'm going To go and do my talk I just said I'm just going to Stand and talk Into this microphone Because that makes sense Because they talk In front of the class Exactly So I said I'm just going to be doing I think that just Confuses them even more I think your daughter Relates more to your Television work than your stand-up work.

1:17:47Why? Because that's a real thing. There's more people that she sees on television than she'll ever see doing stand-up. So stand-up will never be a thing. It's a thing that you... Until they're old enough, then it's... Yes. But then they'll understand that stand-up is the thing that got you the TV job. Yeah, that's why I don't say it's stand-up. I say it's just talking. Because they can understand the concept of talking in front of a classroom makes sense. You stand on a chair and you talk to people and they listen. I just don't have the chair. He just stands there and talks and he's poor. So, so there, the jig is up.

1:18:22So you think I say, because the remix to Ignition now. I told you, that song is sticky. No, it is. It really is. That is about as catchy as music has ever been. Bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce. No, that, that thing is just like, no. Look at this. Look at this. I'm not sober, I'm drunk. It's the freaking weekend. but anyway he's a terrible human being you have to say that at the end you have to say he's a terrible human being it's too much yeah um i'd love to know what you think are the biggest existential crises that like america slash the world is facing now are you ready to take a sip i really hope that is a question you just ask all your guests no it's just you like if you can have one meal for the rest of your life yeah that kind of shit no no just you here's the little no okay what's the biggest existential crisis oh okay trevor just say you want us to go i'll tell you okay can i tell you why can i tell you why i'll tell you why so i'll ask you the question because i remember when i was fully immersed in the daily show my worldview was shaped in many ways by everything I was reading in and around that space you get what I'm saying so if you asked me at that time I think I would have said something politics related etc etc you get what I'm saying because I was so fully engulfed by this world yeah fully fully fully if you ask me now because I spend most of my fun time reading about like monopolies and corporations I'll actually say that's the thing and you know that's about me that no that is like my fun time.

1:20:04Yeah, reading finance. It's that pickleball and then football. Oh, pickle. Oof. Ish. You should be doing pickleball for another 35 years, shouldn't you? You play pickleball now? Yeah, I love it. I love it. As you play pickleball. Really? Oof. I love it. He lives there. It's fantastic. One day he dragged me there for four hours. Only one day. I've dragged you there many days, my friend. Many. You know what I love about you, though, is you don't seem to learn the lesson. I really love this about Eugene. The first time he came along, I just want to hang out. He was standing on the side and he was, I watched him at some point, the first five minutes, he was like, okay.

1:20:39And then I saw him look, you almost looked like a parent who had brought their child to an activity. And then they were like, how long do I have to stay out of obligation? I didn't know it was that long. I thought decent people, I thought they play a match and then they go home. No. Remember, all organized sport has a time limit. Oh yeah, you're not wrong. Football has 90 minutes. So I was like, if I, if I. Oh no, you're not wrong. No, I do like four hours. And he's the Kaiser of. Yeah, I do like four hours. He shouts orders, let us play. I mean, I just think I'm motivational. Cleaners are coming in, security guards.

1:21:08Everyone grabs their back. We just have fun, John. I have a good time. Have you played pickleball? No, I haven't played pickleball. Have you? I did play pickleball once. And did you? I thought it was fine. Fine, yeah? I thought it was fine. Yeah, it is fine. It's fine and then the more you get into it. Okay, sorry, Trevor. But it doesn't do to me what it does to other people. Do you still play football? It's like taking heroin and going, this takes the edge off. Football, I love. Do you still play football? Football, yeah. We used to play Tuesday every, every, I don't play now. What? now just family and work i just don't have time now but i know i not even like to squeeze in like an hour no nothing no nothing oh man i thought it would be like knees or something no i stopped because of knees just the concept of knees just knees in general i was seeing too many of them no i would go home and have these thoughts about knees and i was like knees everywhere i just need 22 of them bearing down on me.

1:22:03It was, no, no. Especially running on AstroTurf, it killed me. I was like, I can't do this. I played at Pier 40. Oh, nice. Yeah, we'd play like a midnight game. And then we'd go. That was the hardest episode of The Daily Show every week. Because we would finish a game at midnight, 1 a.m. Oh, yeah. And then 8 a.m. you're in the office trying to concentrate on what Mitch McConnell is saying. You just got knees. Just knees in your head. That's all I have. No, so, yeah, I've brought him along a few times. I hated it. Yeah, and, but the reason I'm saying it. First hour, I'm fine. Yeah. Hour four. You're not wrong.

1:22:40I did take it too far that day. You're not wrong. And I did apologize at the time. But you're behaving like you're on steroids. But I even said to you. Everyone was tired. I even said to you, I'm sorry. Did I not say I'm sorry? No, you did say it. I did from the court. I couldn't take it seriously. I did say I'm sorry. From the court, I said, Eugene, I'm sorry. We took it too far. I did apologize. Yes. But going back, what I'm saying is your worldview. I find for anyone who spends a lot of time consuming information in certain spaces or spheres, they often have a different perspective on what they think is most dangerous for the world in that moment.

1:23:12You know what I mean? And so I'm wondering, because you're reading everything. You're engaging. You're doing research. You know what I mean? You're consuming so much. I think my answer might be related to that. So rather than because obviously mergers are a constant threat and the most immediate one is always the most immediate threat. like land disputes around the world. Yeah. Everything from horrific in the medium term to systemic in the long term. I think in terms of a threat being existential, one of the biggest problems right now is the kind of information that is available to you to get.

1:23:52That feels to me like an existential threat. Say more. Because people are so siloed now and are so able to traffic in low-grade information. One of the big things that I've learned by doing our show is that there is a huge amount of utility in having access to experts in the field that researchers will speak to. Okay. And you can get good primary source information. there is so much trash being passed around and confidently passed around i worry about that it's hard to have a conversation about anything when the information about that thing is so poor that is my concern feels like in the past people just didn't know about certain things now they can be confidently wrong about something which i actually think is more dangerous so uh that is my i guess that was that is what would come to mind in terms of an existential threat i just i worry about our information funnels right now yeah the analogy i used to use with some people is i'd say it's it's it would be the equivalent of people watching sports whatever sport you want and you have opposing teams or you choose your teams people already disagree on the game that should have been a foul that shouldn't have been a foul that but imagine if they were watching two different games yes right how would you even that that's the problem you know what i mean now now we're not even watching the same game and we're supposed to live in the same stadium but we're literally not watching the same game that's the thing so then then any kind of shorthand of oh we just need to come together any of that like joe biden this is not who we are yeah you are so far off addressing the central problem here that this is functionally useless what would you change uh i don't know i it feels like it's something that societally is going to have to change there's good there's going to have to be a premium put on good information so where do you get your information well again like that that's where we are very lucky and this is not scalable i have a staff who can go out and speak to experts for weeks produce a packet of good information They can update.

1:26:09They can find out, is this data still current? So often you're passing around data maybe in good faith. It doesn't apply anymore. You don't know. Yeah, you don't know that that study's been updated. That's not true anymore. It's very difficult. So I think that kind of information literacy is something I think people are going to have to get better at understanding. It may be that this generation of kids are going to be better. I hope are going to be better at seeing through the garbage than older people are now. Do you think AI makes it better or worse? I mean, we'll see. We'll see. It imminently seems like it's making things significantly worse.

1:26:49But I hope that long term there are ways to fix that. But yeah, again, the kind of unearned confidence of these billionaire AI cowboys is not inspiring. I like that unearned confidence. Oh, God, yeah. It is pretty, I mean, that's a perfect way to describe it. Because they approach a situation that they have never been in with the confidence of someone who has lived there for a century. They just don't... They make it seem like they exist in the future that they're preaching and they're selling it to us as if it's already concluded in a good way. Or just making decisions on a series of best case scenarios.

1:27:27Yeah. That feels like fatally problematic. I think there was a story about Kamail Nanjiani when he was doing that show Silicon Valley. They would go up to Silicon Valley and walk around into these companies, these startup companies. And he would ask them, how could this be used for fascism just in general? And he would see them go, oh, yeah, we don't really think about that here. Oh, you don't. That's interesting. Feels like something you might want to think about. How could your product be used to hurt people? that might be part of the decision process you want to fold in to all of this there's a there's a book i read about have you read um the book uh careless people i think it is it's a a book written by um this woman from new zealand who basically started working at facebook as a as a sort of like international liaison like their diplomat and she talks about how even when facebook was starting to become the de facto social media platform around the world they did not think they needed to care yeah about how their platform could be used like they were just like no no no that's not our that's not us that we have nothing to do with that is the most obvious example to bring the world together bring to it let's share information we have nothing to do with that next thing you know what's happening in miyamar oh that can't be anything to do with us oh it's very much to do with you you've just thrown gasoline over what was happening yeah so now what are you going to do about it oh well you know we're gonna learn are you or is that just something you say you're gonna do yeah that's it's yeah it's a that that is what i'm concerned about do you keep your kids off social media everything absolutely their phones no how do you how do you deal with that well it's easier now they're 10 and 7 right so they're not really going anywhere that i'm not as well that's why you don't play football anymore prison warden took over and but is it amazing how often now even my 70 year old he basically treats me like Siri.

1:29:20He'll just say, look it up, type it in, type it in. You asked for that job. That's right. That's a lot of Peter Alonso. Type it in. What I also like about this. Hey Siri, hey dada, hey dada, hey dada. What I also like about this too is I'm assuming she has an American accent. Oh, yeah. So you're like her English butler essentially. It is, you know what is odd? Or her kidnapper in public. You never. If you don't have the same accent as your child. That is the thin line. It's the craziest thing though. I know. It's the stupidest thing that I'd never considered was that it didn't occur to me that they would not.

1:29:51When you grow up, the idea of having kids, you always think they'll sound like you. So it is odd the first time it hits your ear. And they're around for a while not speaking, right? So it feels like, oh, this is, there's going to be, hello, how are you doing? Oh, nice to see you. That's coming out one day. I bring Norton all the way. Yeah. And then the first time you catch them saying, hey, how's it going? Nice to see you. any kind of like American are. Yeah. And you go, oh, oh. Oh, yeah, of course. That makes sense. You're going to sound like the people that you're around all the time. And even better for them is they've got the immigrant dad because you realize for them, in your head, you're normal, right?

1:30:35For the most part, in your head, you're normal. In their world, when they grow up, they're going to be American kids and they're going to be like, Like, oh yeah, oh my God. I remember my dad always be like, oh, are you going to put that away? Are you going to put that? Like you are. That's my big grandfather. That is when you really realize that got an American accent is when they do a shift, when they're doing an impression of me. Yeah, there you go. You know how dad is, he's all, oh, you got to put your toys away. You're like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. We're getting a little confident with that accent.

1:31:05It's okay when I do that voice. It's not, don't give me the Dick Van Dyke version of this.

1:31:16do they do they get to go back to england do they spend time there yes they love it there's so yeah how long do they spend like how will you like do the thing of shipping them off for like six weeks or no we haven't done that yet that's an african thing no i think a lot of people do that a lot of people around the world like ship off kids for six weeks yeah like i come to where they come from people yeah people who come from another country doesn't matter where they'll be like oh my kids are going to columbia for six weeks or so they're going to go back to south africa they're going to go back to england for like the summer period what are they hoping it's going to do okay summers it's just so long here yes that's the thing because we have like in our summer holidays in england were like five weeks five and a half weeks in total here it's like months months and months yeah so people will send their kids if they come from a place and they can send their kids back they'll just be like oh the kids are back in wherever my friends some of my friends like oh the kids go to trinidad and they go there for like months in the summer holidays oh yeah no and it just gives them back there you know so i was wondering if you do that what does it give them back you know their vibe you know what this is gyroscope he he know what this is come on eugene so what's the longest they've gone the dogs has only been like uh 10 days it's just taking them back for a week walking them around but i do like i like walking them well yeah it is walking them around because you want to see them in the places you work like and they don't care much no but it was like the thing that was most meaningful to me was especially because of the pandemic right where they didn't travel as little kids.

1:32:41They didn't go much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So last summer I took them back. I remember taking them to Dan's house, to Kitson's house. Yeah. And there was something very meaningful to me of seeing them on the stairs outside his house, on the couch where we would play FIFA. And to see them sitting in that place, in his world, that really made me feel like, you know, as an immigrant, you're fractured, right? There are little parts of your life everywhere. So when some of those things combine, it can really give you a sense of, oh, this makes sense. Look. That is so beautiful. Do they play FIFA? No, they haven't done yet.

1:33:19They don't need phones. I badly want them to. Yeah, but you might have a console. What do you mean? Yeah, they don't have a console yet as well. Do they support Liverpool? They absolutely support Liverpool. That is the one thing that is non-negotiable. Oh, so you haven't given them a choice. No, they can choose everything else. I wasn't given a choice. My dad said, we support Liverpool. I went, okay, that's fine. I'm always torn on this I feel like some I feel like parents maybe should give their kid an option to say hey this is the team I support I'm going to let you watch other teams and then you decide if you also want to support this team I did say I technically gave him a baseball team option but I did like thumb the scale I just said do you want to support the Mets?

1:33:54The Mets? The New York Mets? Oh you want to support the Mets? Oh I want to support the Mets? There you go great we got it we got it so you technically had a choice you had a choice We'll be right back after this short break.

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1:35:50How much of a Liverpool fan do you think you are? Like how many of your hours, like your thinking hours do you think are consumed? Thinking hours is such a good way to put that because, you know, the honest answer to that is like it's, you know, whenever your mind is at rest, it's going there. So you can really rack up the hours. Then if you're thinking about happy thoughts, sad thoughts, anxious thoughts, like right now I'm thinking about Mo going to AFCON and how he's going to do over there. You wish him well? I do wish him well. Of course I wish him well. Yeah. I also wish he didn't have to go because now I feel like he just got back to a good place.

1:36:26Wait, do you wish he doesn't go and represent the continent that he comes from? Don't you put that, you see you trying to start beef. You see you and the beef. You see you. You see you now. Wait. Is this because I took you to pickleball? Just say it, Eugene. Don't, don't, don't. The four hour marathon. Is that? No, no, no. It was around the fourth hour. You know why? Because we just got back to. I'm going to get Trevor to declare war on Egypt. No, we just, we just got back to. I wish the timing was different because we, we just got like, you, it felt like, oh, him, his smile, the team, the coach, the win.

1:36:59We needed it. but maybe doesn't he need to go home to refresh and come back happier I don't know if Fcon refreshes you here's my confusion John can I ask on a selfish level wait before you go can you do an episode on Manchester City what about the fact it's a beautiful team built on blood money my man have you heard about Harold selling Michael Jackson nevermind now I'm going to take that back retract no what were you going to ask him no no I was going to say whenever I watch people who love football especially top level football I'm thinking to myself in that field there's a bunch of foreigners right with their lives who've left their homes who get incentivized very well to play for this team for our amusement and the sponsors obviously payback but life happens they get injuries they move on the most other thing happens so in all this time of being a fan of an individual inside a team institution you've never thought they'll have to one day be put to pasture or move on to some other things No, I think you know it's ephemeral, right?

1:38:01Which is why you try and enjoy it so much when it's happening. You don't expect victory or pleasure from football. You kind of know it's a much more complicated relationship. And you know that you should take the joy when you get it. And you should absorb the stress, the anxiety, and the misery when it comes. You know that even with Mo, you know, we love this guy, Jurgen Klopp, right? The coach. Yeah. It was clear that was never going to last forever. That was not going to be like a long Alex Ferguson run. He's always just done these 10 years. One of the many, many ways in which he's a unique man is you would have these unique, intense periods with the club.

1:38:43So you knew it was not going to be forever, which is why it meant every second of it meant so much. Because you know it's going to come to a close. and I think I felt the same with Mo you know it's when you know that something's not going to last forever all you want is the best possible ending for the thing that's meant so much to you and you want that for him as well he deserves a good ending to Liverpool whenever that ending is and it shouldn't be now because this would not be one what would a good ending look like for because I love I love Mo Sal I love his new haircut I love his fade I think he's evolved quite well with it so I'm like okay this man changed his hairstyle he's changed many people's lives how would you like his career to end you led with you led with that with Mo Salah you led with he changed his haircut he changed so many lives first for him then for you all sure first for him then for you all you say murals are being changed right now in Egypt the guy who's single handedly changed how Muslims were viewed yeah he changed his hair that one time.

1:39:53And I think at the end of the day, that's what we will remember. It was big and then it was tight. Anyway, Mo, thanks for everything you've done. Can I tell you? That literally sounds like how Trump would describe it. If you ask Trump, if you ask, because you know, he never admits that he doesn't know anything. So if you said, President Trump, what do you think about the Mo Salah thing? Be like, you know, Mo Salah did a lot of things, a lot of things. Big guy did a lot of things. Had the hair, changed the hair, changed the hair. I'm sorry, it was big. Changed a lot of lives, a lot of lives, changed the hair.

1:40:18It was big. Then it became small. Then it became small. I love a good guy. The mural artists are losing their minds, having to alter the afro. It's like he's going bald. One trip to Turkey. We all know what he did. We all know what he did. What would that help? Because I watched the game over the weekend where he did that assist. And then the goal went in. And then my friends were happy. Yes. They were all jubilant. And I was happy with them because I'm that kind of guy. I share my friends' pleasure. But then when you say you want an ending for him that's befitting. Yeah, but that was what I was worried about.

1:40:45Without that game, I was worried that we were hurtling to the opposite of that. We were hurtling towards an ugly ending that was in no way representative of everything that he's done for that club and for his head. And him not starting the game obviously made it worse, right? Made it much worse because I think he felt like he had been snubbed, that he was not, his work, what he had done. His contribution. His contribution, follically and with football. Follicle. Was not being respected. I don't know that he was entirely wrong about that to me. He wasn't playing particularly well, but I think they did.

1:41:18It's not wrong to infer a level of disrespect from it. So, yeah, I was desperate for that situation to be handled and diffused because the idea of it ending that way would have hurt, I think, lastingly. He is a singular figure, and it feels like generally statues should not be built for footballers, not just because they can be embarrassingly bad like that one Ronaldo won, but because footballers are overpraised in so many ways. But what Mo has done transcends football. How he carries himself as a human being transcends football. And I just didn't want it to end badly. And I hope it doesn't now.

1:42:06I would say it like this. Whether it's sports or not, Just think about the moment you get to say goodbye to the thing that you were a part of. And the thing that you were a part of turning into a success. Whether you're at your office and you're leaving. It's nice to be able to have the cake. Have everyone come around, say goodbye. Versus people come in on Monday and you're just not there. What happened? Yeah, gone. Where's the desk? Gone. That's not an ending. That's what it felt like it was about to be, by the way. And that felt wrong. That felt like there was going to be hard questions to answer If that was the way things ended Yeah, no, it wasn't going to be Because he definitely deserves much more than that He was here in New York for the Time 100 Wait, you were there that night too?

1:42:53Yeah, I was No, I was there, yes He had a game like on Tuesday Oh, I didn't know that Remember he was just in for the night Wait, because we went to a game I remember the game that we went to Do you remember? Yes, that's right We were standing backstage Oh, yeah Oh, that was The memories are flooding back. You know, because it was my one time that I didn't have any, I have nothing to say to Joaquin Bob. I just wanted to see him. Then big Virg, he walks out. He sees Trevor. Says, Trevor looks at me and he says, all right, Zazu. I went, excuse me? Excuse me, Virg?

1:43:31Do you, do you, did you know that I'm the new Zazu? Or do you think I'm Rowan Atkinson? I'll take either by the way I'm happy with either

1:43:44when I was with when I was with Mo at the time 100 I remember I was trying to say to him what he meant to me stumbling my way through it and he's like listening in his patient way and then he said do you know Khaleesi what? Mother of Dragons yeah I said oh my goodness and he said Khaleesi's over there can you please introduce me to Khaleesi oh man Mo oh man if that's if that's what you want then I will give that to you that will be my gift to you what did you do Mo Khaleesi mother of dragons Khaleesi mother of dragons Mo I genuinely love how in life we all have do you know what I mean yes you're there going nothing could be bigger than Mo Salah in this room yes yes oh my god and Mo Salah's going I hear you British man but I hear you I tolerate you but do you know Khaleesi yeah because it goes to your point because I want to be the stepfather of dragons yeah but but also in my world I'm going I can only assume that the games are not to him what the games are to us oh of course yeah of course so when you're like what you mean to me and what you I'm sure someone has done that to you as well they've come up and be like hey John Can I just say everything you've done in my life?

1:45:08What have I done? And now you're just standing there. I look at them and say, do you know Paulie Walters?

1:45:15And they're just like, you know. How many seasons have you been running now? How many years has it been? 13. Do you see yourself going? What would you like your ending to be? I'll go to the Saudi League probably.

1:45:33isn't that what you're supposed to do yeah it feels like there's a saudi league for comedians now so yeah i'll go there i'll go if how amazing that would be is just seeing you there pop up randomly one day just probably full-on come out and just be like riyadh let's talk about the best city in the world it's just like john what happened they got to you they got to you oh man yeah but it because it must be i don't i don't know what this is like from your side i remember for me in many ways i think i i um i felt the feeling that you were talking about of of impermanence always with the daily show because in my head it was always john stewart's show uh-huh that makes sense does it make sense i was always like i was like i know who whose car this is totally agree i just know how to drive it well yep you know what i mean it's like living in your parents house completely it is always your parents house but i was like yeah yeah and everyone's like oh it's it's you've made it yours i was like no no i've put some of my furniture but this is my parents house yes uh in my brain you know so and because because john was my mentor you know as i call him my jewish yoda it never felt like it wasn't his house so i'd go like hey john i remember once when i even asked him i was like hey how did the the guest interview it's so short what are you trying to do there and he said oh uh fill five minutes oh god that's all he said i was like oh because like i'm really struggling to get to the crux of somebody in in this like four five minute segment what do you what how what are you trying to do there and he was like oh i was trying to fill five minutes i could not do those things that was the one part of that job i could never do it was talk to someone i had no interest in whatsoever so it was the actors was the problem for me yeah you struggle with that oh man that was tough yeah you struggle with that it was i just i ran out of things to say so quickly i remember once i was talking to one actor and i would look at spinny sometimes the floor manager to see like he would say how long you got left and i looked over to him as if say are we are we good and he said you've been going one minute 60 human sections and i was all out of questions is that why you just cut guests out of your show yeah it was we built a we built a whole remember you had a you had a guest area yeah i remember the guest area the whole first season you had the guest area yes because it felt like you were supposed to have a guest have a guest that was all the only thing i knew about american late night shows you have to have anything can happen but there has to be a guest there's got to be someone else and to their credit hbo after our two test shows that we did just said you know you don't have to have someone you don't have to talk to anyone at the end if you want you can just like Was it that bad?

1:48:15One, I think it was that bad. I think it genuinely was that bad. And two, that changed everything for me. Like, oh, I can have that six minutes and we can make the story longer. Oh, I'll do that in a second. And so that was the thing I'm massively grateful for, for them to kind of save me from myself because otherwise I absolutely felt like, and you have to have a guest every week. But I think you had a good question. And I did not want that. Sorry, sorry, John. You had a good question there about how you'd want to see your ending because I think I have sympathy for sports people they give so much of their lives they start very very early yes that's so difficult they miss so many milestones that's all they know for such a long time I sometimes wish for them that when they want to retire at their prime of their human lives not of their sporting lives where they can have families yeah yeah yeah they can also be rubbed out of the zeitgeist of that side of their life and then people will not recognize or know them as much you know so don't you wish that for Mozart it must be so difficult for him to have it must be so difficult Because it's amazing to think that that part of your whole life has been building this one thing.

1:49:16It's over and you're 37 years old. That's a young age to be. To retire. For everything to have stopped. It's no wonder that there can be big problems in terms of what you want the rest of your life to functionally be. And the idea of it slipping through your fingers, something that came so naturally to you since you were three years old. and all of a sudden you realize when you are the best in any environment that you're in to all of a sudden feel it fading away i cannot imagine how that must feel i remember talking once to joe dumas joe he was a basketball player with the detroit pistons really fascinating interesting guy and he was talking about towards the end of his career colby bryant started playing and so he was 18 i think when he started playing which is young for american sports not for football but for american sports he's young and he said he could feel him standing off him and he would been thinking about oh when am i going to retire anyway he could feel the first time you're not playing properly against me you're treating me with respect oh no the old guy i'm done he said he went back to his wife that night when this is my last year i'm gonna be done he said he was lucky that he had enough money so that he didn't need to play beyond yeah yeah yeah the point that was that natural end which I think again is not the case with lots of athletes which is oh I need to do three more because I need the money so that it must be incredibly difficult so could you could you see yourself doing anything else oh I didn't I didn't want to do anything else that's what I mean it goes back to that springboard thing with the daily show no but that's what I mean it's like could you that's what I'm saying is there anything you could see yourself doing I just this is my favorite thing it's not I'm so happy for you I don't want to do some yeah this is what I like the most I am genuinely so happy for you no because what because what I was saying about the temporary thing for me was, I never thought it was my forever thing.

1:51:04I thought maybe it would be like two months or three months or two years or three years, but I never assumed that it was, and then it's like one thing led to another, one thing led to another, and then it's a pandemic, then it's like, well, you're going in a pandemic now, you're staying in the pandemic. But I never assumed that this would be, but for you to say that, I actually love that for you. There's so few people in the world, I think, who can say, I'm doing the thing that is my favorite thing to do in the whole world. It's so much fun. Because it's, you know, it's the best kind of trouble.

1:51:30It's the trouble that I love so much and you're doing it collectively so you're all in trouble together. It's so fun. And it was a real relief during the pandemic. How did you feel during the pandemic? It was really difficult, like just doing a show at home, keeping everyone employed and like performing jokes to silence. But I worry a lot about where my head would have gone without it. I feel for the stand-ups who all of a sudden, like, I don't know when you can do this again. Lost the outlet. That's a hard daily rhythm of your life to have taken away. During the pandemic, how do I? So I think there were stages.

1:52:09The first stage was, it was like the fun and it was the experimentation of it all. It was like, it's exploration. School's closed. Yeah, because remember, they said it was going to be 21 days. And everyone could use 21 days. Yes. I'll never forget the 21 days. so and that was always bullshit yeah in the lead up in the lead up to this right i remember saying to someone on the technical team at the daily show i said hey if if we needed to could we film the show from home you know because things were starting to shut down spain italy was shutting down i was like could we and they were like well we're not gonna get shut down that doesn't happen in america it might happen in europe it won't happen in america i was like no no but could we shoot the show from home they were like it's not possible So I spoke to David Meyer Who now directs The Daily Show And I was like David Do you think we could do this?

1:53:00And he's like Ah well I mean He's like I guess technically There's like a way we could do this And he's like Figure out all these things And he's like I guess we could do it So we planned out This whole system For what might Possibly happen If it were to happen So when it happened I was like Oh wow We get to test out This thing for 21 days Let's see how it goes For 21 days You know what I mean? And then You know It was the countdown To 21 days So I was having a lot of fun It was just School holidays right and then the second phase was oh shit people die yeah in new york remember there was the body bags in central park and so that was the that was the thing for me that was difficult because when you're doing stand-up you can at least infer tone from a room yeah you can and and it's it was i found it very hard to know what kind of jokes are going to feel remotely appropriate or are going to be wanted when cnn has a death count in the corner of the screen that's going up like there's nothing to cue you no for tone you aren't part of and that's you're just talking to yourself that's one of the key parts of comedy i find is being part of the society you're doing the comedy in there's very little comedy that exists in a vacuum but you are doing it with people for people yeah and so you you this was the one moment where there was one point where i remember sitting there going is that a joke like literally things would come out of my mouth and i'd be like i don't know if these are jokes anymore i genuinely don't know yeah some of them are some of them aren't i don't know if they're funny i don't know if they're not fun because there's no do you know what i mean there's nothing to that there's no feedback there's no interaction yeah so you could just we could be like man this is so great i just imagine you being like an old man doing your show is that what you want do i want to uh be an just an old man ranting about systemic problems in america yeah probably i'll probably be there and it doesn't have to be on television it can just be in the corner of an old people's home i'll just be gathering people over and saying i need you to listen to what i have to say about the ugandan election coming up it's just be like john oliver in the corner people getting ready he's like catheters okay it's like oh boy here we go john he's like you probably think it's just the thing that you wear inside your pants to help you i know this move but it's like here we go and it's like you You know, everyone in the lounge is like, oh, what's John?

1:55:18And someone's like, shut up. This is interesting. Tell me how the old age homies screwing me over, John. I know, it sounds dark. He might do something dumb at the end of this. It's going to bring it up. It's going to... But you know what you did? And I hope people are giving you flowers for this. It's not just like the awards. You created like a new thing. You do realize that? I don't know, but I wanted... I was very, very conscious of not doing it because of John's thing, right? Yeah. We did not want to just do John's thing because that felt like stealing right yeah well that's he did that yes so it feels like our responsibility is to take what we learned with him and develop it do a different thing right see what you can do with it in a different form yeah yeah so yeah we were taking very much those part as we were saying at the start those uh like ingredients and the parts of that process and trying to use that to build something meaningfully different and at the end of the day it is still just a guy behind a desk talking.

1:56:18So I know that - I mean, but so is the news. Exactly. Optically, it's graphics over the shoulder because that's kind of the best way for you to see it. But that's different. Yeah. In general, it felt like what we wanted to build was something very, very different. And it is very different. And I hope we have done that. Yes. No, no, it is. It is. And congratulations. And thank you. I'm sure I've said this to you before, but thank you. Because I feel like because of you, I was able to do - Like walked so you could run? Is that what you're about to say? I have colonized so that I could live. Let's put it that way.

1:56:48Thank you, John Oliver. And coming from a South African, you're welcome. Thank you, John Oliver, for colonizing late nights so that I... So basically what he said is you bought them the fake vase so that he can... You brought me over on a ship, John, so that I could be in a land that wasn't my own. For a herald's buyer to buy... That's right. You brought me in. And because of you, John, I was able to do well. an African was able to come to America and do something. So we good now? We good? We good? No. The patina is still there. Oh, man. No, man, for real. Thank you, John. Thanks for joining us.

1:57:22This was really fun. Oh, by the way, are you going to go to the World Cup? Can you go? I would love to go. I would love to go. I don't know if I will be let in. I mean, I was allowed to go in South Africa. What do you mean? You went to Rustenburg? No, no, no. Rustenburg. That was the stupidest part of the World Cup was the fact they put games in Rustenburg, which didn't function really. You know, ironically, that was the first story I did when I started doing Countdown 2010. Really? Yeah, when they were starting to build the stadium. Royal Bafoukeng Stadium, right in Poukeng. Yeah, but it didn't have anything.

1:57:53It didn't have anything. It's just a mining town. They were just going to get three games. They were going to build this stadium. We got there. The scoreboards didn't work. They were funneling all the fans in through the same entrance. Like, oh, you don't want to do this? There's no plan, huh, guys? Absolutely no plan Everyone had to walk out together Which team was camped there again? I don't know who was camped there Every team was assigned England played the United States there Yeah Yeah, there was one team That was camped there They were not having a good time Yeah, there was one team That was camped there But this was pre-your FIFA beefs Is what I mean Oh, you're right Oh, that's right You have FIFA beefs This guy is the king of FIFA He's done multi-series Multiple parts on FIFA I knew there was something about you If I was Kendrick FIFA are my Drake Damn

1:58:40so basically bitch don't kill your vibe no but I'm being serious so did you go to Qatar? no no I did not go to Qatar okay so you go I talked shit I was not walking into that trap I talked about shit about FIFA and the Qatari government no no no you would have been fine can I tell danger is only at the embassy no let me tell you something the best time to go to any country is when the world cup is there oh yeah sure I've only been to Russia once in my life and it was during the World Cup because I knew the only thing you should fear more than the Russian government is FIFA. FIFA was going to keep me safe.

1:59:16FIFA, let me tell you something. Do you remember during the 2010 World Cup in South Africa? Do you remember what our crime rate was? Zero. Exactly. Why? FIFA does not... Remember they had their own courts? They had mobile police stations? That's right. You have FIFA laws with a certain distance. Yo, let me tell you something. Get all those vendors kicked out. FIFA does not mess around. So what I'm saying is you're technically... Because they can't have it that something happened to John Oliver. Wait, so your beef with them stops you from attending any of their... No, I'm asking if it does. Okay, yeah.

1:59:45You should have gone to Qatar I think I should be allowed to attend I live here No, no I live here I think I should be allowed to go You should go to the game Yeah, I think I should go I want that for you England's going You should go Yeah Do you think this is the one? Oh, no It's coming home I don't think I will ever think This is the one for England It's coming home No, I've been hurt too many times Yeah, but John This is one of the best teams In terms of balance No, I've heard this No, in terms of balance I've heard this every four years But you are still right It's true every four years I'll tell you what happened As someone who watched it in Qatar You know what I think happened in that one game.

2:00:15Southgate was the coach, right? I just think his problem was when he was 1-0 up, he was more worried about losing the game. You're always worried when England go up too early. When England went 1-0 up against Brazil, you're like, this happened too quickly. The story of the empire. They went up too early and then look what happened. That was all we were really guilty of was doing too much too soon. Was speaking too soon. And it assorted other things. But yeah, I think the problem with England is going to be that it's just, we're at the point now where, you're right, the team is really well balanced.

2:00:53Tuchel's a really good manager, but we're at the point of the season now where every injury is meaningful, right? Okay, this is true. So it's like, what happened? From January on, it's all like, oh, we're all going to learn like we do every four years. What's the recovery time for a meditarsin? Yes. It's going to be like, I remember when Beckham broke his meditarsin. Oh, yes. On the news in England, they're like, it is this bone of the foot. Like making people qualified podiatrists. It'll heal in about three and a half weeks. He'll then be able to put pressure on it. Then he can start bending it.

2:01:24So maybe by the quarterfinals, he'll be back to full strength. Okay, but here's a question I have about this. Why is it that the English media, and this is just my observation of it. Why does the English media give the English team so much shit and then get so pissed off when they, like they don't seem to support them. No, no, no, no. They seem to expect them to win and when they lose, they try to, yo, the English media, they expect them to win. It's a deep level of entitlement, which is that every World Cup is England's unless you allow another country to take it away from you. That is the kind of tone of the British press.

2:02:00But then they shit on them so hard. They give them so much shit. Yeah, they play scared. You would think there's like a moment in time where the press would go, we're behind you fully, don't worry. No But instead No Why do they do that I don't know I think there's two things going on One I think they are You can be terrified to make a mistake Because you've seen the examples That have been made of people You've seen effigies of Beckham Hanging outside of his family's house Right So you do not want to be the one That misses a penalty Yes You've seen what happens So you think Yeah look what happened to Saka Saka Of course That's right Southgate himself He knew He knew He missed a penalty He knew the fact it upends your entire life Right That is a monumental amount of responsibility to feel the failure in a moment before you can even contemplate success.

2:02:46Plus, back then, those teams were so siloed. They did not interact with them. Yeah, they didn't at all. That was a very, very interesting now hearing them talk because you see them on podcast talking in a way that you wouldn't. You see players say, oh yeah, we didn't really, you see Rio talking to Gerrard. We didn't really hang out. I didn't really know anything about you. that's the other players right now they go on vacation together no now they go on vacation together they're friends back then but and i think that comes with a level of regret because like oh absolutely we could have really done something together but i was suspicious of you you were suspicious of me yeah neither of us like frank lampard you know it's like told me it's it's agents were fueling that must come with real regret but i think it's just the way things were at the time there was a few players have told me not social media changed that oh really yeah like Like a few players, I asked a few players, I was like, yo, I feel like there was a time when one, you know, a Manchester United player would never be friends with Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal.

2:03:45Never. Now I see you guys on vacation. I see you in clubs in Mykonos. And he said, social media. He said, it used to be that the only images you got of that person were like from the official games. Yeah, in combat mode. Whereas now you see a clip of them. You see them doing cool things. And you're like, oh, I like this person. And I remember like Marcelo was a fan Of Alphonso Davies And Davies was like Wait The Marcelo The greatest left back In my life And Marcelo was like I think you're the greatest New left back ever And all of a sudden They became friends And so You now have these like Cross team Cross generational links That couldn't be formed But because of social media So Facebook is good I do find it so interesting Watching them talk now The kind of Watching Even in the game The players that we loved Growing up Looking back on that time Oh yeah they're very With regret Or just talking or just reminiscing about those moments that you grow up with is the first time.

2:04:36I think the hardest I laughed this year was there's a start. You know, Beckham and Gary Neville do that Salford, that series of Welcome to Salford videos. There's just Beckham and Neville in the back of a town car driving through Manchester, and they're just sitting there, just like two friends who've grown up together, which they have. And Beckham says, hey, Gary, do you remember that time you tried to lob Buffon in the Champions League? and never looked back and went, what do you mean tried? A perfect exchange between those two. I think what you've just explained is the happy ending of all football fans.

2:05:15Social media and television and these kind of programs allow you to have a life with them after the football. Yeah, you're not wrong. So they won't disappear into the ether and you'll never hear of them again or you've caught up in some strange administrative job as an assistant coach. You will still see them functional and living. It's that classic thing with social media though isn't it like what it what it gives with one hand it'll take away with the other because like yes they can be more they can present themselves to society as a more well rounded human being and they can have the most horrendous things said to them relentlessly online yeah that is at least in the past you could hear it you could tune it out but it was fundamentally done yeah it doesn't follow you to sit there in their phone that morata morata talked about that alvaro morata yeah he talked about how like when things weren't going well for him i think it was at madrid but he said he just couldn't get off the phone and he would see people just saying these and i used to go just turn off the phone but if you grew up in that generation yeah that doesn't apply you play a shit game you go home you go and the fans are still with you fans are with you on the couch.

2:06:21Fans are with you on the couch. Yeah. Those aren't like, that's your team. The people wearing your shirt shitting on you the hardest. Yeah, it must be very, very difficult. That's what I discover whenever I watch American television, especially sports channel like ESPN. I see how these ex-football players, I think people who love Tom Brady see him more now than they've ever seen him when he plays because there will be a match and they will play and that will be it. But now they get to hear his opinions, they get to see him, they get to, in fact, feel like they're interacting with him. That's the win, right?

2:06:49You can retire into podcasts. Come and join us when you retire. Oh, yeah, this bit that we'll just sit around and just reminisce about. Yeah, 100%. Daily show episodes. That's what we do. Yo, man, this has been fun, John. Thank you, man.

2:07:04What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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