Josh Johnson: Finding Meaning in a System Built to Fracture You

32:24Right. And then he like grabbed his face. Cause also when you're a kid and nobody's like really hit you or hit you back, it's surprising. So, you know, he's like, and then he walks away. And then as soon as he walks away, I'm like, like, I'm like grabbing my head. Cause I, I hadn't like put it together that this would hurt. Yeah. No one shows you. I mean, in the movies, they don't show you that. And they're not hurt Like Bruce Lee never finished the fight After everybody was down Was like Like that's never happened Jackie Chan did He was the honest fighter He's what got us closer to John Wick Yeah Cause John Wick will end the fight And be like Oh god I still don't like that he got hit by a car and carried on That always threw me John Wick Didn't he jump a bit?

33:15Man I don't know He jumped a bit though I don't know You know what I really like John Wick Yeah The movies The only thing I didn't You also like The Matrix Yeah but And he's the same guy Yeah but the difference there is It's not the real world So I'm John Wick gets hit by a vehicle And then he just gets up Which one is not the real world again? Between John Wick and The Matrix No The Matrix is not the real world Oh What I'm saying is in John Wick John Wick is the real one You know what Josh Let's carry on So a geriatric version of Neo Josh let's carry on Where instead of being led by a black man He's led by a dog It's much more real than The Matrix Because they said it wasn't anyway So wait wait Did the bully ever come back?

34:03Oh yeah yeah yeah different day So this isn't like a victory story This isn't like Josh Johnson No I won a half a battle and I lost The next battle like it wasn't even a war it was just like i because i was just an easy target too because i think i'm openly like sensitive and i am not like a big guy so i didn't have a big i did i never had a big frame growing up yeah so even in high school the people who picked on me was like yeah it's like easy picking it's like i i look like i almost don't exist in my clothes yeah i made yeah you're sweet um poetic you are you're timid in your vibe sure like just as josh like as i've always known you you're really considerate you you're a perfect like bully father in that way and it doesn't help that i was always like read like when your head is down from reading you're a perfect target for anything i'm like reading i'm like reading all the time i'm like reading for fun and so now i genuinely don't know what's about to happen until the book gets slapped up my head And then I look up and I'm sure any bully that saw me was looking at me and I was looking at them like, like, just because I'm the shock of like the books on the floor was about to happen.

35:17You know what I mean? So and I and I don't think I like carried an awareness for defense enough ever, really, until until maybe like I really became an adult. Even being in Chicago I was like Look Apparently You know Especially when you go to like Some clubs Where like on the south side And people would either You would either know something happened Or people would say Something that just happened Yeah At some point And so I was like Alright Like I'll be fine I'll just run And then whatever bullet hits me Was meant for me Do you know what I mean? You were never about that life You were never like I'm gonna stand up Fight Do a thing Handle it No No Even when I tried to like Roll with other kids That were like tough They were even like, you're too sweet for this thing.

36:03Like, you're not like a tough, like even kids in my neighborhood would be like, yeah, but you're not like. I like that. You know what I mean? No, I genuinely, you know. I look, at the time, I looked back on it as like, why is everybody so, what is it? Why is everybody so like patronizing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now I look at it as if like almost and, you know, whatever, this is going to sound however it sounds, but it's like almost by like some truly like divine design. Everybody that was in my life was put in my life for a reason, helped keep me on the right path. Even when I wanted to do something bad, they like made it so it's like I didn't even have the opportunity.

36:46Like all these things came together. Even the people who like pushed me out of their life, it's like their life went in like a horrific direction. So it's like they push me. It's almost like pushing someone out of the way of a car because I'm like I'm trying to like roll with this kid or be like this kid. And then this kid is like, hey, this is like not for you. And then and then something even ends up happening to that person or they go down a worse path or something. So now everything that's happened, like I can be nothing but but grateful because like at the time, I'm sure, especially when I used to.

37:19this is gonna sound self-deprecating and it's not meant to be but like the realization that I've I've come to about myself especially over time is that like all of the things about me that I like and that people like are because I'm not like conventionally cool like I'm not like a cool guy who is like um wow I want to be like that guy the way you want to be like James Dean like I'm not that type of guy. So if I stop trying to be that type of guy and I just like, hey, look, I like Rubik's Cubes. I like comic books. And you just become things we've been taught since we were little. The best version of yourself.

38:01The most honest version of yourself. That's where all of your cool will come from because everyone who likes those things will be like, wow, you openly like those things. I'm like, I'm over here doing the Rubik's Cube when it used to get slapped out your hand. and now people on the internet are like he did it in a 0.4 seconds yeah now it's become a yeah but it's like if you're like an oh if you're like an og of that thing and don't get me wrong i wasn't even good so now me watching me do the rubik's cube was a waste of time because it wasn't like i was like hey trevor you want to see something cool it'd be like hey trevor you want to see something cool ah can you mess it up again i can't restart it's like it's like that but then like i said everything in life led me to the point at least in the feeling of about two years ago where everything fits into place i've i felt like i fit in at different points in my life when i lived in chicago i and started doing comedy yeah i finally had the like conduit i finally had the vehicle for all these things I had ever been and ever done and ever talked like and ever yeah yeah okay and then found my people and then moving into New York felt like it did feel like a mistake for the first like six months it did like genuinely it felt like maybe I had made a mistake until I got hired at Fallon but every everyone that I was meeting I used to do storytelling selling open mics, comedy open mics.

39:34I used to do variety shows, like all the stuff like that. Were you working at that time doing like a job job, as they say? Yeah, I was like working at a grocery store. In New York? Yeah. What type of grocery store? The Trader Joe's variety. Okay. What were you doing there? Everything. Like I was a cashier. I did everything but fill orders. Cause I was like, y 'all, if you make me, cause they would try. Anytime you have a good attitude and like you're on time, so people start trying to give you more responsibility cause they're like, this is the person that won't mess it up. but I'm like, y 'all, I know my limit.

40:04And if you put me on freezer, y 'all are going to have 6 ,000 ice creams and no frozen turkey. Like, I'm just, I'm telling you that right now. I don't have that attention to detail, you know? And so I was like cashier, didn't want to become a manager, didn't want to become an assistant manager. Why not? Because in my head, I was like, I thought I had found, and I'm glad I was wrong because I wouldn't be here now. But I've worked at a couple of grocery stores and I've worked, you know, odd jobs and stuff like that. And I found that like, at least in most situations, I can be happy. And so I was making enough to live, but I hadn't met any of my goals yet.

40:41But I was still doing stand up at night. And so I was like happy, like like even in unhappiness, happy. You know what I mean? Like you deal with terrible customers or you like you're low on money. So you got to eat. Dude, I've talked to us before, but I knew I was broke in Chicago when they put the door knocker thing for the pizza on there. my roommates and I we see it's a deal because this place just opened yeah it's five no it's three pizzas for fifteen dollars so it's like every pizza five dollars whatever we each order a pizza we get violently sick and I knew I was broke because I was like next day I'm like I'm gonna eat one more slice and then I gotta be done with this place but like in the off chance I was just sick and then my roommates even like what do you mean you were just we all threw up and i was like yeah but look maybe this slice will be different and then i'll throw the box away but like i'll have money to just give the slice a chance yeah yeah and so i i just found that i was happy i was i was so happy in chicago literally just making ends meet but could not I'd even save money, but I was doing standup at night and figuring myself out and everything.

41:58And I feel like now it's just a reminder to like stay in that place, even if circumstances change. Because now it's like, okay, like I'm not, I'm not completely broke, but like, what do I need? And it turns out I don't need much. If I can take care of my mom and take care of my aunt and just take care of myself and my girlfriend, put on good shows, nothing else really matters. So that I don't really need that much money. And so now if you don't need that much money, you don't need to do whatever, whatever, whatever. So now some of that noise gets shut out a little bit. Because sometimes you'll be in a situation where somebody wants you to do this thing, somebody wants you to do this thing.

42:43and if you don't really know what you want you might end up doing it and not liking it or looking back on and not liking it and I'm not saying I love everything I've ever done completely but like the the path that the internet and the people that I'm meeting along the way have allowed me is to like do things that are completely consistent with how I feel about how my career should go and building a catalog that I think will like stand alone like like yeah something Something that you're proud of because you wanted to do it for the reasons that you wanted to do it, which is a unique moment to get to as an artist.

43:23But I think as any human on this planet, I was thinking about it this morning, exactly what you're saying. I was in the shower and I was going, are you picturing me in the shower now? so i was in i was in the shower and i had this thought genuinely where i was going it's hard for people to understand it's hard for any of us to understand this because money is oftentimes the thing that connects you to all choice power um whatever it might be but pursuing money is almost the worst direction you can ever take right if you say to yourself in life i'm going to pursue money you could just take money out of an old lady's wallet then you've the money is there now yeah right i think what we haven't been taught for the most part because society doesn't oftentimes tell us enough is that money especially in a well-functioning society Money is a byproduct of a job well done You know And so if you have the luxury Of doing the thing That you love doing And you get to do it well You'll find that money somehow slips into your ether It starts to come And that's like I say in a well functioning society As capitalism goes extreme And it deteriorates in its late stage People now can only earn money From certain things But when I look at you I go it's it's the perfect example like you'll tell me if i'm wrong but i feel like this version of josh johnson like the person we know you as today you couldn't exist the same if the internet wasn't what it is now no no i think you know what i mean i know exactly what you mean and i think about that a lot because i had found some um some mainstream and like legacy media success but not enough to live the way that i'm living or make the choices that i make yeah you know i mean like i had done fallon i had done conan i got like a comedy central half hour i've done the route like i got new faces for jfl like i did a lot of the route stuff you're supposed to do yeah it's like an up-and-comer because all the stations along the way yeah and then there's a place that you end up for some people it's after they do jfl new faces for some people it's after they get their half hour and for some people it's like even after they've been on a sitcom or something like that where now there's like there is no more up and coming you're you've you've come yes and so what does that yeah do you know what i mean yeah you yeah you're just like you can't win this new artist anymore yeah they give it to you one time and you lose the time you're up for it that's it you're also not gonna you're just look i'm new to people but i'm saying like the ways in which an industry could elevate could elevate a person along the way i had got a lot of that stuff and then there was a gap between does he have his own show is he writing a show is he selling shows yeah Is he a touring headlining comedian?

46:31Is he? And so there was a gap there. The internet closed that gap. The people closed that gap. And that's why I have a bit more confidence because one thing I'll say about the era that we live in now versus even 25 years ago is that the industry used to be able to close that gap for you. They're like, you are this A-list star and we're going to treat you like this A-list star when you're actually really young. Just because we like as a studio believe in you. And you used to just be signed to like one studio. And so anyway, the industry used to close that gap. But then if industry betrayed you, blacklisted you, you'll see McCarthy stuff, whatever.

47:09Once that thing happened, you didn't have connection to the people. So even if the people liked you, they'd be like, oh, why have you been in a movie in forever? You've been blackballed. Because no one picked up my calls and no one's calling me. But that can never happen again because like if you have connection to people and if you've built community, then you'll always be a version of what you're doing now, especially if you're not doing it to be number one. And the thing that we're lucky about, what makes us different from sports, is that like there can't really be no number one. And so it's like because there's no number one, you can just be like your number one.

47:45You can be like the best you. And for some people like that, like for for plenty of people, Trevor Noah is like the goat of comedy. Right. And then it taps into their sensibility. Your timing is their timing of how they think your humor. It connects with everyone that that follows you, that believes that you are the best of all time. there's gonna be a Chris Rock is the GOAT Dave Chappelle is the GOAT GOAT GOAT GOAT GOAT GOAT GOAT but because it's not a foot race there is no clock as long as you don't there's no clock so as long as you don't convince yourself that there's a clock you can just carry on you know what I mean?

48:25yeah and so it's like I want to be the best like comedic writer ever I also know that's not gonna happen but I know that it will happen in someone's mind that connects with my work and that's enough and I really want it to happen. I want it to happen in the way where everybody says it. It's not gonna happen. But like at the same time, chasing that, now like money is like... But that's what I mean. It sounds to me like you fell in love with the process, essentially. Yeah. Because the process is like the reward that will always yield a return, right? If you fall in love with the process in your life, then the outcome just becomes the bonus at the end of it.

49:03And I've seen this with friends who like cooking. Like they try to get me into cooking because I like food. I like eating food. And then they would go like, you should learn how to cook. And then when I would try to learn how to cook, even if it came out right at the end, I was like, I don't like this. Yeah. I like eating the food. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because when you eat the food and you didn't cook it, you're not sweaty. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Now a sweaty version of me is eating the food. This is what I'm talking about, man. Do you know what I mean? I just be like, yo, man, I get to the end of this journey.

49:32What are you guys cooking? But if you, what do you mean? That makes you sweaty. Oh, it's just processed. You know how it is, man. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. Oh. You don't sweat when you cook. Maybe that's why we... What are you guys cooking? Just anything. Give me an example of what you made that made you go, hey. Okay, one day I was trying to make a stew. I've only tried it once. And one time I was trying to make a stew. And it just involved me with a pot, with water, with ingredients, with the thing. You closed the lid. No, I had to keep opening the lid to see what was bubbling.

50:02I had to keep closing the thing. That's normal. That's part of cooking. Yeah. And in that process... How close were you to this lid? I wasn't measuring, Eugene. I wasn't measuring my distance to the... Maybe this is why I'm not a good cook. I was just like opening and closing, opening and closing. It would be very funny if you were laid it in too close. And you were like, man, cooking is hot. I'm like, right. Yeah. No, but what I mean is like, I don't think there's anything wrong with liking or not liking certain things. But I think people take for granted that if you fall in love, if you find a passion for the process, then the outcome just becomes a bonus.

50:41And if you love the outcome, then your joy is always going to oscillate between good and bad, good and bad, good and bad. I think that point of view is a privilege. We've had this conversation, but in another form. I'm always like that point, making that point, you can only make it from a point of privilege. So if people with a skill, a rare skill, a talent, like a surgeon who earns hundreds of thousands of dollars a month, can say, you know, I just like operating on people. But you're like, no, no, no. I don't know what I'm going to eat tonight. So you can pursue your passion. Yes, when you talk about money, for sure.

51:15No, yes, I'm talking about money versus when people say, no, yes, I love the process. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the average person, I think, this is my opinion, does not have the luxury to think about their passion. Yes. But they're thinking about what am I going to do now? What am I going to eat now? And obviously, when you tell the story about how you grew up and when you were eating the pizza that made you throw up. If someone would have walked into that dorm room while you were eating$5 pizza and told you, just enjoy the process, not about the money. Yeah. My man. No, that is what people said. They were like, that's - And what did you feel?

51:49No, but I guess I'm thinking also, once again, from privilege, it's either privilege or experience. Because I think saying fall in love with the process is a thing that comes from the experience of like, if you have, sometimes it's just good advice from somebody who did it the other way. So yes, it's from like a point of privilege to say like, don't worry about money. And I'm not saying don't worry about money. I'm saying people have put me in a position where I don't worry about money the same way. So I'm not - And I'm also saying, I'm also saying, I don't necessarily, I think it might be a luxurious way of experiencing your own mind, but I don't think it's an unattainable luxury, right?

52:25And here's why I'll say this. When you started comedy, if you remember your journey, it was not paying anything. Comedy literally paid us no, there wasn't even an idea of the possibility. When we were doing comedy in South Africa, starting out, the concept of getting paid by anyone or anything. We paid to do comedy. Yeah, we paid to do comedy. There wasn't even like a 20 bucks, well done. No, that came over time, right? But we fell in love with the process. And what I mean by that is, I don't think everything has to be contained in one space. Right. Right? so when you look at somebody who likes knitting i would always i would always be fascinated watching somebody knit and i'll go like what what are you doing and they're like i'm knitting and i'm like oh are you trying to make something and they go like well sometimes they even go i'll see what it is i'm just starting with this block for now and then it will grow into something else and it'll become something and then i'll decide what i want to make but they go i like knitting knitting is the thing that they actually enjoy on the other side of knitting is the garment that you've created do you get what i'm saying and so what i'm saying is it it's it's it's noisy that's why i completely agree with you it's noisy it is hard to appreciate process it is hard to appreciate passion when you're hungry right but it's it is those people sometimes who are the ones that'll make you the ones who can do it in those moments they're sometimes the the the people who inspire me the most because they can and they do like when my family was at its worst you know my mom loved gardening we didn't have anything we did like literally i remember nights where it's like we're eating more pani worms because it was like the cheapest thing we could buy it's like a dried caterpillar type or how would you is a caterpillar yeah that's like the only thing we could afford for a moment then at some point we couldn't even get more pani worms all we could get was more rojo that was like it and this isn't like a long it's not years in my life but like a few months i just remember we couldn't afford meat and we couldn't afford a certain type of protein and so now we're buying like grass essentially is how it seemed to me as a kid because when you introduce this to me late in life i'm just like this is eating kale and quinoa all day it's ironic by the way because i remember the first time someone came with kale in america then i was like i'm not going back i escaped this trap i'm not going back to this but murojo and kale are very i still think like you know what i mean yeah but the thing that amazed me was she still found joy in her processes just doing something in a garden going and and and and i and i think like that's that's what you're talking about like when i listen to you yeah there's an element of josh johnson that's just like you're just like obsessed and in love with the process yeah that you're pursuing because then it's like the thing i guess if you were to put yourself back in different moments right because don't get me wrong i am never i'm never it's never lost on me that like i am the exception and not the rule and so i even tell people i'm like look everybody's on their own journey i don't want you to think that like there's there's some aspect of if i can do it you can do it and then there's also an aspect of if i can do it you can do it being weaponized to keep people in a bad position i hate that if i mean yeah because it's like because people have said that to me who were tall and now i'm like what do you mean dunk and they're like look you work hard enough you work on your game if i can do it you can do it swish and then i'm like all right i believe you and then brick brick brick brick brick because i because i actually can't and i also to be fair don't love basketball enough to like learn and fall in love with process enough to even see if I can, right?

56:14But now if you're talking about, if you're talking about a system where people can make their money or just have like a life, there's just - Have what they want. It's so much more profitable to keep that as a carrot that you hang in front of someone than it is to just let them have it. Because if everyone's okay, less people are rich, which is like a side note thing. But the process thing that I'm falling in love with and that I think is like so important is that it started so much longer before anything was working out the same way that like i've been my like the way that i've been myself and like weird and it didn't oh did work for like all of life until like a little bit of college it worked because a little bit of college i'm finally meeting people who are also kind of like me then it worked in chicago i started doing comedy that's the that's the thing i should have been doing this entire time then it worked for a little while in new york And then like I had my ups and downs and now it works in a big way because I'm finally like doing everything I think that I was meant to do.

57:18And so the reason I say. Meant to do. Yeah. Because then I think that it started in Chicago when I started doing comedy, but I'm working at the grocery store and I'm like working on bits all day, but then also having conversations all day. Because you. OK, so you would be on register for like two hours. OK. They do a two hour block. So now I'm talking to people and I'm not necessarily like running bits by people, but I am like getting to know you get to know your regulars. You get to watch stuff. And now it's like your audience. You're just yeah, you're just you're just feeding off of like all these interactions that are so interesting, especially if you decide to be personable, because I worked with plenty of people who decided to like be miserable in that moment.

58:01But in my head, I'm like, guys, I'm here. There's nowhere else I can be. And so this is either a waste of my time, which means it's a waste of my life, or it's my life. So now I'm just here. So then let me talk to this person, ask them how their day is. Let me, like, have you had these? Because I haven't had these. I know that's bad to say because I work here. But, like, are these good? Because I'm going to get them if they. And now I become the person that's personable enough that people got in my line. And so now you build a rapport with these people. And then when I'm over here stocking the freezer, stocking the fridge, I'm thinking about bits or I'm thinking about what people said to me.

58:34So now when I go up in Chicago, everyone's like, oh, you don't ever repeat or you don't. And it's like because I'm excited about like I'm excited about what this thing is that happened today or I'm excited about building on this idea that I had last week. But now I've reworded it or like whatever. And so it seems like a wealth of like, oh, you must just be writing all day. And in my head, I was like, I am, but I'm not. Like it just came from such a genuine place. It didn't become more like proper, proper writing until Fallon. Because I was a monologue writer at Fallon. That's when you had to get into the craft of it.

59:07Now it's like 150 jokes a day or, you know, like, or you're just, you're even writing. When I was at Fallon, I was trying, I was so thirsty to get a joke on. I was writing jokes in the hope that like Jimmy got lost in the building and then like wandered in my office and was like, hey, what, how you doing? And I'm like, oh, I'm great. I got a whole page of jobs. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like going crazy. Because also it's like your first job. So you're extra. And it's a major job. Major job. Yeah. And then I got hired at Daily Show. Like when you hired me, I was like, okay, this is a chance, especially because of how collaborative the process is.

59:44This is a chance to take everything I've been writing, all the ideas I'm always having, all the conversations that I have, and like hopefully apply them in real time to whatever the news of the day is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Right, right. And then it like, yeah, I was writing a daily show, which then taught me how to tell stories better of things that people had no context for. So like watching you, I was able to be like, oh, you know what? Like there's this thing that happened to me that people won't have any frame of reference for. How do I tell them about that? So when you would talk about South Africa or when you would talk about your travels and you're talking to Americans who are the perfect audience of like untraveled people.

1:00:24like everything is new they'll be like they'll be like malta is it chocolate they like they you know we don't know because it's like because also you you were the first person that like showed me how big the world was in a way and like talking to you talking to celibaho talk talking to all these people showed me how how well the world gets on in spite of and sometimes without the U.S. because because growing up here you're like this is the this is the lie that keeps things the way they are maybe forever is that you are taught that the U.S. is number one we're number one because we deserve it we're number one on merit but we're also number one in everything and so if anything is bad here best believe it's worse somewhere else in the world because they're not even as good as us so if you if you are hungry in america imagine how hungry you'd be in mexico imagine how and you could even point at other western countries it's like they would do like i had teachers that would do this where they'd be like australian nice and everything but what do they build what what what adventures do they have like because it teaches you to have like like being i don't even know where you learn it but like being the center of entertainment especially and entertainment being such a strong, like a strong conveyor of stories and stuff like that.

1:01:46It teaches you a sort of American excellence that probably even used to be earned, but then has slowly been slipping away over time. And now your assumption is that no matter how bad things get, we could have like a civil war and you'd still point at another country and be like, well, they're having a coup. And it's like, yeah, but look at the 99 other countries that are fine today. on like a regular Wednesday. And so rather than teaching you out of your supposed like excellence and number one, because it's also a very inconvenient truth that like the number one title comes from like, just like a boxer who's number one and has a team that's built up of people from all sorts of backgrounds with disciplines.

1:02:26There's a number one-ness that gets lost in that, oh yeah, well we needed the scientists to come here. We needed the engineers to come here. We taught some of our people, but then they went over and learned from other people and then came back. Number one is just number one because we're number one. And so then that keeps people in the thing of like, you'll see where another country, another Western country as well. So you don't even have to worry about like communism, socialism, whatever. Another Western country will figure something out and we still won't change because the idea of looking at someone else as an example is unacceptable.

1:02:59And so being around you and being around people who had like a different experience of life, being around your OPO, being around all these people was the first time that I was like, not only is like the world obviously much bigger, but like comedy is so much bigger. Cause now I like, it made me curious enough to like start watching comedians where I just needed the subtitles. Cause I was just like, I was like, let me just like, yep. Joe Opie, our subtitles.

1:03:28We're going to get a dig in at Joe. Come on, man. But that's, but like, so every, I said all that to say that like, all of that, it's not, No, no, it's like, it's not lost on me that not only have I been incredibly fortunate, I've been given a lot of opportunities. And then even within those opportunities, I was like, put in the right place at the right time to have the right experience to make what I'm doing now possible. And that's the part, see, that's the part where... And whenever you get great advice about pursuing your passion, no one ever says at the end, that's the long way of saying, do the thing that you can when you can.

1:04:06Then someone might select you to be the person that can and ends up becoming the person that will. And also what I realized was when you were telling your story, because I worked in retail for a long time and I realized I had the most amount of fun doing comedy when I was in retail before I knew it was comedy. There was no pressure You had to refresh your drugs Yeah there's someone coming in In and out all the time But they've seen you so many times And you can't say the same thing to them And there you are now At Fallon Now you're doing this thing for a living And they've said to you You don't have to worry about the money now Just do this thing And then all of a sudden It becomes difficult And I thought There was a phase where comedy Was making fun of people That are doing their best To try and survive You know there would be Times people like Hey imagine You guys coming back from work Hey work How's work Ooh, everyday traffic And I'm like, yo, when did we get here?

1:04:54Like I started hating the way I was doing some comedy Because I would And I'd realize it was all about For me personally, it was about fitting in Because even in retail, when you're working there You realize that you're not fitting in here That when you get out, you're like How shitty was that job? But it came with how people measure success maybe Yeah, yeah And it also just comes from a place of like This is how you're supposed to feel And it's like, if you keep falling for how you're supposed to feel I mean, that's very convenient for someone. You'll keep buying what you're supposed to buy. You'll keep voting for who you're supposed to vote for.

1:05:31There's a level of curiousness that I understand that when you're hungry, because I've been hungry. When you're hungry, you're thinking about hungry. So you're not thinking about some of this hoity-toity stuff. It doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make you a dumb person. It doesn't make you less than. It's just literally that's why it's so convenient and so important to keep you, like, not just down, but, like, to keep a controlled – I started working on this bit a long time ago and I did not, like, finish it in a way that's, like, worth it. Maybe I'll get there one day. But I'm like, you don't get paid to do your job.

1:06:06You get paid not to riot. They pay you just before riot. That's the wage. If they paid you any less, you'd riot. and they know that so they're like because you got to remember especially in the u.s we did have slavery and they've slowly been trying to get back as like as soon as they lost it they were like that was some good stuff that's crazy it's like it's like having antimony i'm in the uh in black panther yeah and so it's like imagine they took all of it away you gotta use regular metal now you're like guys i'm getting shot like this is this is getting through right so now so now I'm coming from a place of like I understand that even even we're not even going to get like conspiratorial with it right even in the way that we say left and right works as a function to keep us at the the tug of war and the and the middle of the rope in the middle because the fact that like there's it can't be lost on us that like somehow everyone as in one person is a full representative of the right and every one person just one person is a full representative of the left yeah so based on algorithms after something happens something something uh what whatever whatever you want to picture you are by algorithm and by who you've chosen to follow either served contempt or compassion yeah and you are served contempt or compassion as in that is the way it is this is your window into the internet and your window isn't wrong but it's not the full picture so then you'll say everyone on the left is doing this everyone on the right is doing this and then someone who argues with you they saw a different mix they saw a different cocktail of compassion and contempt so now they are being like no that's not happening this is what's happening both are happening everyone is everything you can have q anon or blue anon or whatever and i'm not making like false equivalencies i'm just saying that like we're all capable of of like everything That's what makes a person a person.

1:08:02And so I think that keeping you there keeps you broke. Keeping you there keeps you like, you know, complying without realizing you're complying or like, and so when someone especially is trying to like follow a passion and someone says, don't necessarily worry about the money, you're going to be worried about something. Because now that I'm not worried about the money, I worry about the quality. You know what I mean? Yeah, there's always going to be something that you want to do. So like, so that, that is a thing that like pops out at me where I'm like, I don't know when I'll be like, because you don't, like your body tells you when you get old.

1:08:38You're not, you don't say a number and go, I'm old now. You get out of bed and you pop. And you're like, I'm not used to popping. And that's what quality does. Let's go back to complying. You said, say the thing you said again about complying. We don't, we're trying to resist to comply. No, it's just what keeps you complying is that like it's very easy if like if Trevor wants something. Right. And what he and what he wants is the last slice of pizza. Right. It's very easy for him to get that last slice of pizza that we could all three have if he keeps us distracted fighting about the pizza. Now I'm looking at you.

1:09:14You're looking at me and he's eating. Right. And I feel like that's how a larger portion of every political game and every like socioeconomic game works. And I think that by me being left and you being right and us arguing and only focusing on each other, you forget that we were initially fighting over the pizza. And now where's the pizza? It's gone. Well, it's gone because it's your fault. No, it's your fault. You know what I mean? I think society made that argument very easy for politicians and people who run countries after COVID because we got to see what class really is. Yeah. It happened in real time.

1:09:51rich people did not die in droves. Because you also saw Medan in that bathtub. And I was like, that's going to radicalize somebody. Yeah, some countries and some people. Medan being in that bathtub and then her being like, oh, we're all going through it. I'm like, not the bathtub. Oh, man. Guys, I need you. I'm telling you right now, if we're ever having a global crisis and I post a video in a bathtub talking about how we all struggle it, I need you to call me. There were a lot of people who were out of touch in that moment. Yeah, but I'm saying that in a grand scale, that's what you're experiencing as inequality and someone having to look at the other side and go, I'm stuck here.

1:10:33I'll even pitch you this. Take any sort of Hollywood example, acting, comedy, whatever, right? This is also how it happens. I'm not speaking to the merits of anyone's talent. I'm just saying what I've noticed is that there will be a certain amount of positions. There'll be like the DEI positions, right? And you can also tell that the DEI positions, as people get at DEI, this is the thing that tells people like, this is how many we're going to do. It's the quota. Yeah. It's like, this will be the quota. Yeah. So I don't even know why you get mad at DEI because they've already basically said, we'll only get 20.

1:11:13So like, you won't have to worry about them taking your job. maybe you but like as a large swath of the industry we're gonna let 20 in right so now people are mad at these like dei jobs jobs only established to try to like find some sort of base all the stuff all the stuff we already know but then people are mad at them these people now feel like they have to prove themselves they're mad at the you know the other people coming at them everything meanwhile there is no quota and there is no um there is no number that is capped for the amount of like legacy kids that get into the right colleges or nepo babies that get the job or whatever and it's like it's like that thing obviously some some people are waking up to that fact and being like oh yeah why are there only 20 spots for anybody forget d yeah yeah right right right and it's like that but that's also part of the game but that's what a quota does a quota exposes how many spots are no longer available to those it was available to before that's true That's true, actually.

1:12:12So now you can quantify it. You can count. Oh, 20 people used to be there. Now they're not anymore because these people are there. Quotas are never about if the person can do their job or not because I'll tell you this much. People who are put in because of affirmative action will never outnumber the people that were there already. It will never be 50-50. It will never be 50, you were here, legacy. 50, you are new. We're just putting you in because then you could measure how did the quality of work drop since the new people came in. But if you put 20 % in and the other 80%, They stop performing their duties because they're disgruntled By the people that they feel like they don't deserve to be there Then that's when the quality of work drops Then you can always blame it on the new guy Sure, sure You know what I love listening to this Like These are always the moments when somebody like walks into a room And there's comedians talking And then I'll always hear them say I thought you guys told more jokes Yeah, yeah, yeah No, no, no I've always wondered I was just listening to you guys now and I was like, it's really interesting to me how comedians, no matter where they are in the world, will always get into the, is it the anomalies?

1:13:22Is it the inconsistencies? Is it the, do you know what I'm saying? No, I was just listening to this now and I was going, it's funny how, because comedy, let's think of it this way. Because comedy is like the icing on a cake. It's sweet. It's generally very delicious. It's easy to consume. People often think that the raw ingredient for it is also that in that way. And I know sugar cane is. Please don't get me wrong. But I'm just saying, I'm watching this right now. And no, no, forgive me. It made me wonder. It's like, I wonder if you get into comedy because you're seeing an inconsistent world or if part of comedy helps you process the inconsistency of the world.

1:14:06Maybe. I mean, I imagine it's like if you're a singer, right? And you're like, I can do something real weird with my throat. Yeah. I can do something real weird with my voice. And then you do it to drums and people are like, I think I'd pay to see that. It's like you fall into the thing sometimes. No, but I mean the thinking of it. Okay, let me ask you this question. When was the first time in your life when you can remember thinking this doesn't make sense? Okay. Okay, so you know how, this is two moments that stick out to me. You know how the dentist gives you a lollipop? Yeah. You see? There you go.

1:14:47And I was like, hey, my man, my man, what you doing? Well, you try to catch me slipping. I didn't have any cavities and now you're giving me sugar? This is crazy. How old were you when you had this thought?

1:15:03Maybe 10. I don't know. Like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but you see what I mean? It's like something like that. What was the first thing you can remember thinking, this does not make sense? I think it was when I was watching my grandfather and my parents watching the news and believing all of it. Wait, you were watching them watch the news? Yes, and they were believing all of it. Because in my head, I was like, this what they're saying here didn't happen here. Wait, what? Wherever this happened, whatever they were saying in the news, they were like, in Soweto, in wherever. I was like, yeah, where we are, everything is fine.

1:15:37So, oh, so you were going. Yeah, so it was burning on TV. Okay, got it. And at that place. And I'm sure by now they've extinguished the fire. Because it's 7 o 'clock news. Jeez, okay. Outside. That's so funny. But when they shot the news. This is actually really funny. The sun was out. This is actually really funny. Why are we worried about the emotions is if it's happening outside and if it's happening now. Then I'd watch them getting emotionally invested at 7 o 'clock about, oof, so bad out there. That's fascinating. So you were thrown by the fact I mean, you see, it's extremely logical as well Because you're going, it's not burning outside No It's not even The sun is not even out anymore Yeah, it's daytime in the news Yes But it's nighttime now Yes And everyone who was supposed to do their job did it The fire trucks were there The cameras were there The reporter filed the story And so you were sitting there They put on a jacket Yeah In fact, in my head, I was like The reporter that reported on the story Is also home watching the news now You know what's so funny about this is that it's the third level of the thing.

1:16:35I thought you were just going to say, why are they believing everything? Because people lie sometimes. That's just even much more of a child thing. Yeah, no, no. You're like, no, no. The car that was on fire has clearly been extinguished by now. Long ago. Insurance has been contacted. The claim is being processed. Now we're just waiting for opening hours for tomorrow so you can look at another car if you really want one. But I would watch the real emotion And my parents being invested on Yo, there's bad out there And I'm like, no, it's great in the air We're watching these people Our car is not burning And that's when your So your brain at that point is just going This doesn't make sense Yes, and also because I think when I started exploring comedy I realized that's what people are doing They're reacting to something That I say that's not real I say things and then they're like Yeah, Ned And I'm like, yeah And I think that's why Maybe we see comedians unable to Fight extremism when people are being extreme about their views and ideas and rallying people and filling up arenas and domes and people are just coming to listen to them in social media.

1:17:38We can't say anything. We can't fight that because we're essentially doing the same thing, but we're doing it on a happy side. We're galvanizing people to come into a room to laugh, but on the other end of it, it has never been like it is now where you find in the other side of things, the same arena, two weeks from now. I would agree with that actually. There's someone who's going, we are getting the guns. We are going to fight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a different type. Man, that's an interesting thought. There is like a, it feels like at least more and more places in the world have an economy or there's like a circuit around anger and hatred in a way that it didn't exist for a long time.

1:18:19Yes, because Trouble Making, thanks to stand-up, has become performative. So if you look at all the rallies of all people stirring up what we call Trouble, they also have a stage and they tell jokes by the way and now they don't have paper anymore in their hand they play music a little bit mess around and get people worked up some of them tell the same jokes I mean they do it, they work it like a set you remember back in the day, I mean he still sort of does it now but not as much, I feel like now he's like retired Trump used to work out bits on the campaign trail so he would say something, he would do it and then he'd go, I used to say that and it didn't work I used to say it didn't work, now it works The one that he had was, I'm trying to think of which one he had.

1:18:59I think it was Crooked Hillary or one of those, but he had a previous version. Yeah, Crooked Hillary. And he had a version that was like, it didn't hit. But he found the one. And then he found like a switch and he changed it. But he said, which was interesting to me, he said at a rally, I used to say it like this and people didn't respond. Now I say it like this and they do respond. Yes, but stand-up was the original research and development of how to become extreme in an idea. When people say, okay, there's no paper, just a microphone, just stage, just give me a group of people. Don't sit down even, just stand up, let's do this thing.

1:19:34Because music did not have the same impact as now when you have a singular person trying to convince a horde of people to take action. But the action now is the other way around. It's no longer just go home and be happy. It's not action to happiness. Yes, because also stand-up did a lot to remind people how great their lives are. But this form of extremism, which is performative as well, is doing a lot to remind people how shitty their lives are. Where else we would make fun of someone who has a normal 9-to-5 job. These people are saying, why do you have a normal 9-to-5 job? Don't press anything.

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1:21:16it's amazing how powerful it is when you switch it i you know it's funny i i you know because you you you are in a moment right now um that that's amazing and it's new and it's it's it's obviously being looked at from so many different places you know so like it's josh johnson the magazines look at you the entertainment industry looks at you and then people often phone me and they go what do you think of what josh is doing and they all have a different lens through which they wish to see it you know what do you think it means for the entertainment industry what do you think it means for comedy what do you think it means for and i remember once i was trying to think of this for myself and i went one of the things you're doing with your stand-up like the sets that you're doing now every single week on youtube is in a crazy way it's like you're also just like establishing a bit of reality i don't know if you've noticed that and i don't know if you're doing it on purpose i mean some people say that what i'm trying to do is be like this thing like what we have become i think is a problem like as comedians and what we mean to people and what we and and how we like structure our careers around that thing i think that people are playing games right now that are gonna gonna bite them eventually where you play with people who are struggling you play with people who are like based on like even no fault of their own but a systemic level they are mentally unstable you play with people whose only hope is something that is like you know in the ether as a conspiracy yeah you play with all that you make your money and then you think you go home but especially if you're chasing money especially if you like money and especially if you can't stay at home, you keep doing it and you keep doing it and you keep doing it.

1:23:07And then you become a different thing to them than you can ever get back. Do you know what I mean? And so like, I think if I stay as much of a standup as I can, and obviously sometimes I talk about politics, but my thing is that I talk about everything. So the people who think that I talk about one thing, I can tell what videos they've watched. I've been told by people that I only talk about black culture. Then I've been told by other people I only talk about Trump. Then I've been told from other people that I do like regular jokes again. Then I am told by people that they're like, I love your stories.

1:23:41I love this story, whatever. And it's like, I don't think, and this is, I'm not upset about it or whatever, but I don't think that people are fitting into the picture that I am trying to, and as a result, talking about everything. Yeah, but you see, this is, I do get upset about it. Not just on your behalf, but on society's behalf.

1:24:02one of the best things I ever learned was from a friend who was a computer scientist, and he taught me about a concept known as the second system effect. And he said, whenever you're programming, one of the things you learn as a coder is when you change one aspect, you might think you're fixing one thing. You don't realize the second system effect that is created by that. You've created a second system, and the effect of that is something that you may not have been aware of you know i think of that with algorithms we used to live in a world where the broadcast was decided by a few and it went to the many so one news network 100 million people would watch it one journalist 50 million people would know them.

1:24:55One newspaper could define a whole country's trajectory. And then over time, that started diminishing, like their power started going down. But what also started happening is it started diffusing. So there'd be more newspapers, more news agencies, more television shows, more movies. So there's more who have less power, more who have less power. This is a good thing because reality shouldn't be defined by one person or one small group. but then we get to the point of the algorithm and the algorithm does this on steroids it becomes super super super tuned to getting as few people as possible or rather as many people as possible an opportunity to talk to as many people as possible and you you like cut down where the message goes from and who it goes to it's like everywhere it's diffused you know what i mean it's Like everyone can say it to everyone everywhere.

1:25:55But then what it also does is it says, I'm just going to give you this slice of the reality. You know what I mean? So now Josh Johnson's out there trying to be the full human being who is Josh Johnson. The algorithm goes, I noticed Trevor that you really liked Josh Johnson's stories about hair. I'm not just going to give you all of his hair stuff. Just you and him, afros. That's all I'm giving you. And then it goes, Eugene, I noticed you, you liked the thing when Josh Johnson was talking about working in a grocery store. I'm just going to give you his retail stuff. And now you extrapolate this into politics and views on the world.

1:26:30And what's crazy and terrifying to me is that there's a person out there who only knows one slither of Josh Johnson. And as you said, they either have contempt or compassion for that person or that side of you. And I go, as we get to the second system effect of everything going to everyone in the most perfect way. You don't have one big broadcast. You have a billion small broadcasts. But those billion small broadcasts are only your world now. And where before you had to share a world where a car was burning for everyone, your family's watching the news. Now you watch the news, you watch the news, you watch.

1:27:08Everyone in the house is watching different news, but they're all living in the same house. Yeah. And I genuinely, the reason I'm upset about it is not like anger. I'm like, I'm almost terrified because I go, what does that do to us when we don't see the full complexity of each other. Like you and I talk about this all the time. I go, I want to live in a world where more people see friends disagree. Because we make it seem like people disagree because they don't live in the same world. You know, like when you walked in today, we were watching videos on the internet about mediums and psychics and all of that stuff.

1:27:43And I said to you as my friend, I was like, Emma, I don't believe this. But there's also something here that I don't get. There's something I don't get. And I'm not going to say it's not real, but I'm letting you know my current position is I don't believe this and then you're going I do believe this and let me tell you why and we're sharing this but we don't exist on you know like opposite ends of anything there are some parts of you that are far away from me and there are some parts of you that I can't separate from my own skin we are the same in that way and that's a big thing that worries me is I go imagine if somebody like Josh Johnson who in my opinion is one of the kindest most caring most considerate people imagine if they could slice you into slithers of an idea what are they doing to the rest of everyone in a society do you know what i mean sure and also through the structure of like what keeps you on they follow behavior so because they follow behavior we assume that everyone always wants to be agreed with yeah some people actually and the algorithms have already figured this out because it happens to me it's like some people through being curious about what other people think are served nothing but bad like i would just say bad stuff that i don't agree with my twitter so then it's like it's like it it then makes me feel like oh everyone's so angry and hateful and every and then then this okay no one no one's on board with this idea i've talked about this idea with friends i did this idea at a show right all right go i was like guys well they found now it's it's like it's like a they finished a study that half the internet is bots.

1:29:17Isn't that great? And then everybody's like, why would that be great? I'm like, guys, there's way less Nazis than we thought. There's like, imagine if you thought there was a room with a hundred Nazis in it and it's two. Two's still bad, but two's not a hundred. And then one of my friends was saying, but yeah, isn't it horrible though that somebody would go to the trouble of engineering the troll farm to make us think there's more Nazis? Yes, that's still not as bad as a hundred. actual nazi if you had if you had a hundred a hundred uh cakes at your door that say the n-word two nazis you'd be way less scared than if there were a hundred nazis at your door with two cakes yeah with two cakes yeah we gotta keep the cakes we gotta keep the cakes but like the fact that this bot problem is actually so big it both means that like to me at least i could be i like this No, I like this view.

1:30:11I'm actually on board with this, actually. It's an optimistic way of looking at it. It also means that the companies also, like, are artificially propping themselves up. We think that they are, like, the full purveyors might be the right word, but that they are the full end-all be-all of human connection now. And that would be advantageous for us to believe that because we would then go to them for the communication. First of all, everyone forgets outside. if you if you guys if the fact that people even in new york people talk about new york most people are so much more polite than any internet comment session would ever have you believe yes people bump into me they apologize because you carry nunchucks of course yeah 100 let the hair get frizzy but like but i just find that that thing clued me in that okay now I already try to take a beat I already I already to my detriment don't get angry enough about bad things happening in real time even when they happen to me sometimes someone's rude to me and then they walk away and then I'm like actually that wasn't okay right I already tried to take a step back as my like personal now I take a second step back especially when I'm online because I'm like, is this person real?

1:31:29Now that sort of thing could drive a person crazy. But to me, because I'm also being served so much hateful stuff and because hateful stuff is more engaging than love, it does then make me go, okay, what's the likelihood that people spreading love are bots and people spreading hate are bots? This is a hateful thing that I see. And it also isn't like original. This is how I feel like I'm getting good at picking out the bots because then when something racist happens and they're like, they're like, we should get him fired for his job. And then they're like, probably doesn't have a job to fire from.

1:32:04And then the next three people are like, probably doesn't have a job to fire from. Probably doesn't have a job to fire from. I'm like, I, maybe this is like one angry person. That's just being multiple. Yeah. And maybe no racist people. Who knows? Because the comments are racist. The other person is just angry. They're like, we should get him fired from his job. This is insane. Right? And so now it's like, it changed my, like outlook on the world in a way that might be naive and it might be a little bit like um um wishful thinking but it still is like information that i'm basing my no i think it's i think it's the right way to see it actually it's like finding you know we've had a lot of conversations on the podcast with with different i mean everyone from you know doctors who are here to talk about how to find the best in your kids.

1:32:54We talk to world leaders. One of the common threads I find is like finding the hope, you know? And what you're saying ties back into that is finding, you have to find that thing. You got to find, you were hopeful enough to eat the second slice of pizza. And desperate. Fourth, yeah, fourth. The three were the night before. Yeah, but I like this. What type of pizza was it, by the way? It was just pepperoni pizza. There's no reason for this to be poison. Can you eat pepperoni pizza today? Yes, because, okay, I've been poisoned many times, but there are certain types of poisoning. This man said it like a badger.

1:33:29That's how the judge was like, I have been poisoned many times. There was a time in my life where if food was 250, I would eat it no matter what. That was the most adventurous I've ever been. Now when I actually go places and someone's like, oh, try this as a delicacy, but it looked a little bit like squid guts. I'm like, I think I'm okay. Yeah. But if it had been 250 in 2014 in Chicago, I'd be like, hey, bottoms up, right? And so the time I got poisoned at the Chinese place, it took me years and years and years to eat Chinese again. Huh. Because everything about the feeling, everything about the smell, everything about the violent, whatever.

1:34:07Now it got to a point for a year. Anytime I passed like any sort of Sichuan place, I was like, I could feel it. Oh man, I'm so hungry now. You just got me hungry. You just said Szechuanese food I started thinking of Pig trotters Are you in Eugene? I don't even think You understand You just Oh man Sorry Your pain Tell us about your pain again I apologize Josh I've never drank in my life But it's the closest Wait Whoa Whoa No what I thought you knew You can't just drop bombs Like that in your life I knew you don't drink No I never drank You have never consumed alcohol No Nothing Even in church Nothing thing no no we didn't go that type of church there's some churches that give you the blood of jesus and it's wine yeah some are wine we at we at welch's oh the the grape juice grape juice okay okay okay okay all right never consume not we're not talking about never drunk never consumed alcohol um is there a reason for this uh yeah it it so initially i was definitely before i was like of age too scared to get in trouble okay cool then i was like not um then then i really went to this transition where i became known as like the sober guy okay like that'll be the guy who like walks you back to your dorm whatever yeah then i was broke so then i was broke yeah but then this also made me useless though is that i can't drive so then i couldn't even be the designated driver man i would just be in the car with the designated driver and everybody else sitting in the back sick and i'm like y 'all y 'all pay too much for this yeah so then um then i moved to chicago yeah that story can i just say that story takes on a whole new complexity of annoying it's one thing for somebody to be hanging out with you at a party drinking with you being like have you guys noticed how much we pay for this alcohol we could be paying way less no sober josh is just standing there pointing at your drink being like you could have saved 50 dollars you could have saved$25.

1:36:12You could have saved$17. All right. All right. Shotgun shotgun. This is so wild. And then when I moved to Chicago, I didn't have money to afford to like a new thing. And then after I moved to New York, I felt like, even though I was still in like my mid twenties, I felt like I had missed a little bit of the boat. And that if I were to find out, because the way you find your drink and the way you find out how much you can drink is through trial and error and the errors get less and less cute the older you get this is true and so now i'm like ah yeah i missed it because now also so there's no like curiosity even that makes you and i'm not advocating for it by the way no no not really i'm intrigued by this the other reason was that i was like i don't think i can do anything like smoke or drink or any of that um especially like it was like a focus thing as well because i was like i want to be able to take care of my mom take care of my aunt and like you know just like make sure that they're good right because like and and especially after like my dad passed and everything and so then anything like that just seemed like um a potential distraction and just from the outside looking in i had never seen anyone be their best self drunk even the happy drunks right there were some people that are like oh he's so fun when he's drunk and i'm like y 'all know he's like fun regular right yeah but you just gotta ask him the right questions and so how old were you when your dad passed um 26 i think 26 i could have been 25 did you feel like that um because i'm listening to you and it sounds like to me it jolted you into like a different type of manhood or responsibility than than you felt before yeah especially because i was i was now going to like hopefully live longer than my dad damn and so now it's like i already had what felt crazy to me is that i my dad pretty much if i have the math right i was the age my dad was when he had me when he died so i'm like 25 26 i'm pretty sure he had me at 25 26 so just as i was like gaining an appreciation for what my dad must have been going through and have a kid yeah i like lose my dad and so these are conversations i never end up getting to have with him of like hey just so you know like i get i get i get you a little bit more now i know what i can't know what it was like to be a baby with me yeah i can't know what it was like to have like annoying cries they're like eh you know what i mean yeah because i'm inquisitive i like i can't go back in time and like really get it but i'm starting to get it because I can't imagine having to like deal with what you and my mom dealt with when you were my age right yeah me being this now then losing my dad I was like oh yeah like anybody can go so now I make sure or at least do my best to like I'm still not perfect at it but like everyone that I love I let them know all the time and I don't worry about being embarrassed because it's like I told my dad I loved him the last time and and wasn't feeling sure that he heard me you know I mean and I had the opportunity to tell my dad that I loved him plenty of times before he got sick and so it's like I never want to waste that again on anybody and like I've lost people since then and got to feel at least somewhat better because every time i'm not saying this like to freak you out but it's like every time i leave someone i'm like they could die yeah or i could die so like i'm sorry don't put that juju on me ricky but i'll tell you i love you all the time i love you too yeah you know i love you too yeah but don't put that juju on me no 100 look look we're gonna live forever that's literally why i say it all the time i said every time i'll be People will be like, are you hurt?

1:40:14I'm going to live forever. When I fall, people are like, ooh, that looked bad. I'm going to live forever. It explains a lot of your, like, I don't know, man. You've always had a beautiful, appreciative. Like, we used to come back from shows, and you would look at me, and you'd be like, hey, man, thank you for that. And I was like, okay. And that's why I'm shocked that you don't drink, because I genuinely thought some of those times. I don't mean this in a shitty way I swear on my life I'm with you You had the sincerity of a slightly inebriated person And I also stopped talking And I realized I did the same thing to Colin Kaepernick When I met Colin Kaepernick I was like hey man you and me Yeah and that's what you do So Josh will look at you Say something Not finish a sentence But his intonation will make it seem like something was coming So he'll look at me and be like Hey man I just wanted to say Thank you

1:41:17Then I'll be like Oh For what? You know

1:41:24Do you know? No I do know No and then like I mean I've known you for years now But back then I was just like Oh man I was like my man's You know he's had a few It's been a night It's been a journey And I appreciate him still And And so, I mean, it must be, I can only imagine what it must be like for your mom, though, seeing this. Because there's no mom who doesn't enjoy seeing their child fly. Especially when you quit the grocery store. Especially when you're like, mom, I think I got this. And she's like, are you sure? Because it's not my mom never, like, my mom is very supportive, believed in me, all the things.

1:42:06But any mom is going to be Especially any black mom is going to be pragmatic If your mom supports you going into comedy I don't know if you've got a great mom I'm going to be honest Your mom should support you doing comedy as like a side But if your mom If you go mom I'm quitting my job to do comedy And your mom's like good for you I don't know if your mom actually likes you I'm going to be honest Most moms, all moms should just be like Do that for fun I told my mom that I got the job at Tonight Show and she was even still like, okay, and that's enough money to, like she was still like, and this is good, you can survive, you'll be taking care of yourself.

1:42:48And so it's like, even for something that she knows, because I watched The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson when I was little. Like I don't even remember some of this stuff and she will tell it to me that she's like, you cried, you cried so hard. I think I was like late to school when when when they announced on like the today show that johnny carson wasn't gonna or whatever morning show yeah i watched johnny carson i loved johnny carson so much and so i like cried and i'm like i don't remember this at all and she's like yeah you were like four or whatever like like i was like little and i don't even know if it was the announcement so much as me finding out but it was like it was just it johnny carson and big bird got like tear me up right and so so then i think that for her seeing me do well and especially seeing what we've built like like we have a real community of people who come to the show like to laugh take a break and like people really take care of each other and everything and people are like um you know obviously like internet's internet so there's gonna be like mean comments whatever but for the most part like people are like um so kind they they they're very kind towards me and they're kind towards each other and it's like everything i'm hopefully making everything that would make her you know happy when she sees it and she's seen it a few times now and now she's seen it a couple times as my show and so then she sees like what i'm doing yeah and so even though she'll still whatever if I if I swear I bro when I tell you I don't even like curse like that I don't even curse but if I let anything slip she's like I heard that uh that b-word you think that that's banana do you know what I mean like yeah it'll be like it any cursing is just like is is like um uh she clocks it right right and but I think that now for her seeing that I'm doing well seem okay And like, once again, I just, I can take care of her and take care of my aunt and like, they can ask me for things and it's not a huge deal.

1:44:52Yeah. Cause that's been like the dream. Like people would say, like, even when people said I was like good at comedy, I'd be like, I'm not good at comedy till like my mom is taken care of. Man, that's beautiful. Cause then it's like, now, now you've, now you've reached some sort of goal. Right. Like now you're like, cause funny is like, this is the thing about like the hubris behind comedy sometimes i think even gets comedians trapped in i think why so many comedians leaned into politics in the way of wanting to be attached and not just wanting to comment because wanting to comment is like what we're supposed to do being attached is like now you're entering a weird now you're like a mouthpiece when you're like in with them in with them you gotta be very careful because now you're talking about your friend because you have to know them yeah no but that's that's actually true you're talking about your friend and now you can't tell the truth now you can't tell the truth Cause you're like No I was there Yeah yeah yeah And he didn't He didn't mean it that way That it came out So I know it's ridiculous But like The funny thing is They're not your friend They're not your friend That's the thing I think A lot of people don't realize In these situations It's like you'll cozy up To a politician Right They'll cozy up to you But they're not your friend Unless they are But they Most of the time they're not And you know But you're so You're so enjoying The proximity to power Yeah That you're quick to go like They're my friend And it's like They're your friend It's like, yeah, I love them.

1:46:12They're cool. They're this, they're that. And then when the power does something that you don't agree with, people are like, why is your friend doing this? Now you're like, well, I mean, they're not my friend. I don't like know. No, yeah, exactly. I don't like know them like that. I mean, but it's like, but you told us. You vouched for them and you said they were great. I'll even tell you this right now. If you are a politician to be your friend, you got to find a powerless politician. That person being genuine. That person. The person who was like, y 'all, they blocked me. I can't like like an alderman city council they probably your friend that's like your friend friend yeah yeah but like once you get to um uh high up once you get to prime minister once you get to like president once you get to people with like real power and a stake and an image that they use to like catapult them to the next thing you gotta be very careful because look look uh what's his name I'm sure Rodney Dangerfield was friends with Reagan or who like you know I mean like might been you might have been buddies you know so then he does whatever um i don't think it was white house corresponds dinner back then but he does whatever roasting thing and then like the president at the time's eating it up it's like they might be friends and then you also have to factor in like celebrity to it too of like maybe this president just that's what's happening with the with the fighters now like now these fighters will go to a country and hang out with like the country's dictator yeah and then they'll be like friends and then the fighter gets back to the u.s he's like hey you know he scans people right it's like what he just wanted to take the picture and go like like that's that's why i went it's like why would you go well he paid me a hundred thousand dollars it's like oh yeah you didn't you didn't you didn't check so so when you so when you're building this world of yours what are you what are you building towards and what are you trying to build away from i think i think the and i've said this before and i'll keep saying it on stage It's just like I think the the when when your life is over, when everything is done, the only real measure of a man is like what you build and what you break.

1:48:14And so it's like I'd like to build up a lot of like goodwill things that I think that people still have in them, but they just don't exist as much just for free in the ether. and I'd like to like break some ideas that people have of each other even though that's going to be hard because like you said it's like the the the algorithm doesn't aid in those things the same way you think you can use a politician and they're using you I think algorithms work the same way oh no definitely where you're like no I've gamed it because I'm always nice and it's like well first of all no one is always nice and sometimes you're willing to be nasty about someone who's being nasty or sometimes you have a very human moment yeah now just like the the problem that we have now that we that we refuse to accept because as soon as the thing becomes about you it takes you out of the game a little bit is that you watch reality tv and now we know enough to know these people have been coached or these people are being produced to be the most entertained version themselves sometimes the most entertained version themselves is the worst version of themselves.

1:49:19And now algorithms and platforms are doing all of that to us. We are not our worst moment. We are also not our marriage proposal. No one is as cute as, as sweet as, as nasty as, as whatever. Even if you put a bunch of that stuff out, no one is one thing, right? Whatever it is, good or bad. And so I think that now you could look at every person. We literally call them channels you have a youtube channel you have a instagram page you have you have a book about you being written you have a tv show about you being produced and those things work the same way even if you're like well no i control it because it's mine you don't control who it goes out to and how it goes out yeah and then i one thing that i've noticed is like the favorite things that people say they're the favorite that i've done are never the thing that not only never the thing i think it would be never the thing that is the most popular hmm the one of the one of the favorite favorite favorite like videos i've had that people have ever put out it i mean that i've ever put out that people come to me about is this one that i did that i just did like on a whim just to put it out for fun yeah it wasn't even a tuesday video i was like i think it was extra it's like a thursday video yeah yeah and i was like there's a the it's called the priest and the pickle and it's just a time in my life where I had a conversation with a priest and a guy who was like a pickle slash pickle juice thief.

1:50:48And it's like that thing is for a lot of people. Some people say you talk about Trump, you talk about black culture, you talk about, talk about, talk about. But if we talk about favorite, for whatever reason, that thing peers through. I think anything that I put out that people connect to is hopefully, and I think by virtue of what people tell me is the thing where I'm being hopefully like the most human. And so I'm not interested in being right. I'm not interested in being like into bringing the country into like whatever political form. I just like want to remind everybody that like at least in this aspect and to real world consequence, you are being produced.

1:51:31So whatever you watch, whatever you do, take it with a grain of salt. could this be a bot also am i being served something because of how i'm feeling yeah the same way that like if you if you're if you're with your girl and your girl knows what that you're upset and she also knows what you're upset about she's gonna bring you a different thing so sometimes it's like you just had a bad day i'll make you a little something or if someone did something to you hey we need to talk because i can tell you need to talk it out yeah algorithms are serving you the same way we do not give we give ai and ai that doesn't even exist yet all the credit of intelligence and manipulation that we should be giving the algorithms that already serve us and so i just like hopefully even in being manipulated by it even in even in serving the machine to hopefully like serve the people some good can come out of that but like there's so much more that i need to do like i think i should just be like writing a lot of this down and making it like hopefully a book because then a book is like harder to, you only saw the snippet of the book.

1:52:37Yeah, that's true. People don't clip books. Yeah, yeah. And even when you do, it's like, all right, that's boring. Like even when somebody tries to like clip like - Yeah, it doesn't hit the same. It doesn't hit the same. It never hits the same. Even when it's like a slam dunk. It does not hit the same. It's like, all right. You got to read it in your head. Yeah. It's not the same. Yeah, and then now I said it. See? That's the most annoying thing. I don't know if you've seen that, but that is a real phenomenon that's happening. Somebody finally reads anything and they go. It's like when someone repeats your idea back to you because they weren't listening, but they were listening enough for it to go in.

1:53:13And then they say it. That's what people do. You should do that with reading, but people do it with reading like they're the expert. Actually, now that I think about it, my whole eighth grade science book was really my idea. I don't even know why you teach in the class. Like that's the crazy attitude that people have now. And it's why people are like, yeah, don't trust experts sometimes. Because it's like, well, I also am well read about this. It's like, you're not well labbed about it. You haven't clocked the hours. I think only when you speak to comics Do you realize that One we're privileged In more ways than we can ever imagine And I think right now We're living in a world Where we've over ordered from the menu And now we don't know what to eat first Because I think of social media I'm like you know you can erase all the apps And just leave the one that you like To communicate with people And also it's social media Not interactive media If you're not using it to socialize With people that you want to socialize with You're the one opening up the door For people that you don't want in your life.

1:54:12Yeah, now it socializes you. Yes, but I also think the more time you have in your hands, the more you earn, the more time we have, and this debate has been going around since the beginning of time. Well, it was big with fast food. Remember when people would say, yeah, are you eating junk food? Are you eating unhealthy? Then people were like, maybe I like it and maybe that's all I can afford. Yeah. And it's also the same with what people call trash television. Yeah, you're not wrong. It's the same trend. People just want to, you're not wrong. Yeah, they just want to watch that. If you feel like you know That Kim Kardashian doesn't look like that all the time That's good for you But they just want to watch They want to watch shows about marriages not working out Because theirs is probably not working out as well So they don't want to feel alone But I also feel like I feel the same about Organized sports The same way some people feel about social media And the comments and the bots and reality television Because if all sports was real Why is it that when match fixing happens It's a scandal?

1:55:11What sport? Like what match For example For what sport? We had a case in South Africa Where it was a huge one South African cricket team All sports real Say that statement again So here In reality television You and I can always say It's overproduced There's some acting Going on over there But for someone else It's reality Kim Kardashian looks like that All the time People who love sports Organized sports Think those people Show up at that time They get paid this much At 8 o 'clock They're going to play For 90 minutes right? And it's real The tackle was real The goal was The dive was real Until match fixing happens And then someone realizes That that match That they spoke about With their friends With such conviction That player Two years ago All of that Yeah Yeah someone was paid To take a dive Yeah Or to pretend That they were hurt So if in that reality We go Real organized sports Is real Yeah Same way someone feels About reality television It is their reality It is their reality I think the difference I'll just pitch you this I do think the difference though is that even in a fixed match, nobody like flies.

1:56:16Like all the stuff that would happen in a match still happen. There are people who literally get pissed off and produced. This guy just said nobody flies. Yeah, because like if you were like, oh, sports isn't real the way reality TV is real. No, we compared the Kardashians and Ahsoka match. Yes, exactly. So with the Kardashians, right? There's a chance that Kim's not even that mad at Chloe, but she's now been produced to almost come to blows with her sister, which is not like real because it's not based off a real conflict. And it's not something that would have happened if we weren't looking.

1:56:51Everything that happens, even in a fixed match, even if you just paid the ref, they still shot the ball. They still kick the ball. They still did the stuff. So it's like, yes, it's to me, it's just as real because whether someone takes a dive or not is like, it almost doesn't factor into the equation because you also don't know who's like if the keeper's girlfriend broke up with him and now he's like distracted so he's not playing at his best it's like it's still all the stuff that was going to happen still happen in a way that in reality tv you can tell sometimes they pick the sweetest people and then they get them to yell things that they would like they mess with your mind to the point and i think that with sports is at least like no he was always gonna try to kick it in he just tried less because like somebody paid him what I'm hearing you both say funny enough we're gonna have to wrap up soon anyway but like I don't think you're saying something too different and I think you know what it is it's choreograph no but more than that it's just it goes back to the question I asked you about like your first experience as a young child doing what you sort of now do as a stand-up comedian and it's the challenge that we all face in the world you have to watch the people around you watch the news and you have to deal with the paradox of what they're experiencing versus the reality that's actually outside right you have to find a way to bridge that divide and then on the other side in a similar world it's like go to the dentist go to the dentist but also ask yourself why they gave you a lollipop yeah yeah yeah no that's that you did it you brought it on home this very that that i feel like is what we should all do josh johnson this was dope man this was great man i miss you i miss you too i i don't miss you as much as you miss me because i see all the time on the internet which is great for me oh but it's bad because then i don't get to hang out with you like this yeah Yeah, yeah.

1:58:56We can hang out anytime I'm in town. Yeah, that's never. No, no, it's like - That's a traveling comedian's word saying like, see you, sucker. No, no. We can hang out anytime I'm around. Never. I'm here four days a week now. I still need to go to a UFC match with you. That's all I want. I still say, this is the channel that the world deserves. Josh Johnson commentating on UFC. This man single-handedly got me into UFC. And I have never enjoyed a match as much as I have when he... Have you ever tried doing one of those second screen type things? Oh, no, no, I haven't. I mean, maybe don't because you love UFC.

1:59:32I don't want to spoil the thing that you love, but let me tell you something, man. Especially in 2020, man. Let me tell you something. This guy, UFC, you don't even understand. I would have never met him. Josh would make me think I know. UFC. By the time the fight starts, I would be like, Khabib, Oh, let me tell you about Khabib You don't even understand, man Oh, so here's the thing you gotta understand About Dagestani wrestling, right? So you see the Dagestani technique And I'll be like, where did this come from? And then Josh is just there in the corner like, yeah No, I'm serious, you gotta do it You ready to do No, dude, I'm telling you Especially in 2020 That was a good time to get in Because there were no crowds You got to see what a fight was like Because you could hear them No, you could hear them You could hear them So not only could you hear them you could hear when they were surprised about what was happening.

2:00:25I'll never forget when Kevin Holland fought, and I don't remember who grabbed him. Somebody grabbed him, and he went. He's not on mic. The cameras are over the cage. So the cameras pick him up going, ooh, you're strong. But you're like, this is a professional elite fighter. Do you remember the other one? Wait, there's another one that you showed me. Oh, man, it was similar to this. Someone turns to their corner in the fight during, it was the same time, there's no crowd. and he like turns and he's like I don't know what to do like in the middle of the fight yeah he's like in the middle of fight he's like he's like hey hey like y 'all y 'all said like he was it was so good and then the other one that we we were laughing we were like crying about is this because heavyweight fights are also like these are the biggest most dangerous men in the world yeah but they're also scared of each other yes so it's like now they're big men now they're like That's a big guy.

2:01:19And remember when we were in the car and we had missed the actual fight because we were like traveling for it and it was in, I think, Abu Dhabi. So it was a different time and everything. And anyway, the heavyweight dude kicked, like did like whatever, kicked like oblique kick. And the other guy went, ah, ah. And then he started walking away. He just walked away. And he just walked away. Like he was like, I'm going home. Even the ref is like, like the ref starts running to try to stop it because you're like, you know, you gotta intelligently defend yourself and everything. But even the ref was like, what is he doing?

2:01:52And then the dude like hit him once and then he, you know, like, but he was still holding his side and you would never hear the like, ah, like, and now because of COVID, they've actually brought back a lot more like ringside, coach, corner, like they had some of it before, but now they're like, they're bringing it more in. I'm telling you, Josh, you gotta do it, man. Josh Johnson, UFC commentator and part-time nunchuck user. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. He walks the streets at night. His afro casting a menacing silhouette. Hello? Who is that? Hello? Hello? Ow. Are you the guy from the grocery store? Josh Johnson is none.

2:02:43Chuck.

2:02:46What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now. you

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