Kara Swisher: Tech, Power, and Why You Should Get the F*cking Duck

20:04Kara Swisher:I don't know. I think it's really, I think it's been with us forever. That's not a new, fresh insight. You know what I actually think? I actually think we are in a cycle. It's a loop of life. we often forget that tech was the domain of the nerd, right? Like I know when I was burning CDs, like when I had my first CD-ROM, my first CD writer, my modem, when I was building my own little rig, when I, you know what I mean? When I was in that world, I can tell you now that world did not brush up against anything cool or sexual. Yes, no, not at all. None of that. Yeah, fast forward to today. There was no world where I could say to you, My PCI slot got me closer to that woman.

20:49No, never happened. A lot of things are making sense about you now. A lot. And you know, I'm glad you're opening up about this. There's times where I have questions.

21:02Kara Swisher:You just had them answered when he said PCI slot. The brushing up against PCI slot. I know. It was a complete... He was trying to make a sexual reference, but it didn't work. No, no, I wasn't at all. Genuinely. See? I promise you I wasn't. I wish he was. We heard it. I wish he was I'm teasing you no genuinely but I mean like it just wasn't there's a lot of tech words that are very sexual though I've never even thought of them in that way put the floppy disk in wow okay I would go with a stiffy stiffy yeah yeah hard drive hard drive hard drive yes yes there's all kinds of stuff yes there are so when I think of that world right there was a community that we would form as nerds where we you know the bullies beat us up the it was just not the cool space to be in no right then money comes into it.

21:47It becomes money. It becomes the force that changes the world. And then what we forget is this is like an entire generation of nerds who were bullied, who were always on the outside. That's part of it. And now society has just told them that they're the coolest people. But they didn't sort of like -

22:05Kara Swisher:I don't think they've ever been the coolest. I think you're going - No, but I'm saying society - Society likes money. Yes. And money is attractive. But that's what I mean. And without the money, they would remain uncool. And the power, yeah. Right, exactly. And even now, the way, like, for example, that dinner they all had, it was embarrassing to them. Oh, yeah, the dinner at the White House. Yeah, I was like, you're the richest people in the world and you have to suck this guy's, you know, whatever. PCI schmucks. Yes, PCI. It was really quite something to see. It's like, what's the point of being the richest people in the world if this is what you have to do?

22:37Kara Swisher:Aren't you exempt from that? But they're not. And so I don't think they look very cool. I thought they looked kind of like toadies. pathetic toadies. But that's just me. Maybe that's the side effect of being bullied as a young person. Not all of them were. You just want to be with a cool guy. Doesn't drop with a cool guy. Mark Cuban's pretty cool. He's pretty cool. He's always been cool, I think, for example. Mark Cuban. Was he like tech nerd in that way? He's a tech nerd. Yeah. Yeah. He's just a different kind. You know, I think, I mean, Mark Zuckerberg is kind of classic, but actually he was pretty popular in high school from what I understand.

23:08Kara Swisher:He was not bullied. And it just depends. I think that, you know, it's because it's formed by Hollywood, like Revenge of the Nerds and all those movies. And I think, you know, as tech became so important to all our lives, we began to recognize the importance of these characters in making us understanding and inventing it. But back in the day, Edison was a hero. All those people, all those inventors, Franklin, they were all heroes. So I think we've always loved the inventor. I think that's not a new thing. But you're right, There were these images, like Bill Gates, for example, sort of was the quintessential nerd, right?

23:45But that image is, you know, when you talk about, I love that you say the word inventors. Because I watch every single Apple event. They just had one. Every WWDC, every new launch, every, you know, I watch the Pixel events. I watch the Google this. I watch them all. and I don't know if I'm the only one but I feel like over the past few years I felt like it's

24:10Kara Swisher:less a club of inventors now oh yeah than marketers yeah it feels more like it's marketing and extraction it doesn't feel like when you say these things Edison I go yeah but look at what Edison was trying to do you know Graham Bell look what Graham Bell was trying look what Tesla the man was trying to do none of these people were trying to think of a way for you to get your like your food 15 minutes faster than you were getting it before. Right. That's not an invention in my opinion. Well, it was interesting because at one point in, some of it was inventions, absolutely. And Steve Jobs sort of personified that, although he wasn't a technical person, he was just, he was good at marketing and he was good at visionary, being visionary of what it should be.

24:52Kara Swisher:And he had enough technical expertise to spur inventors to make what his vision was. But at one point during the internet age, there was, it got so, I guess, fucked up that they were, someone came to me with like, digital dry cleaning service. I was like, this is not innovation. This is just. What do you mean a digital dry cleaning? You just ordered on an app. That's all. It was just an app and it was still dry cleaning. I'm like, are you going to dry clean it digitally? Or because that would be cool. But one of the things that I used to, someone said to me at the time, and I agree with it, was at one point, Silicon Valley became really smart people doing really small things.

25:31Kara Swisher:And that's what it felt like. Really smart people. That's why Elon was so interesting, I have to say, and I spent a lot of time with him, was because he was talking about cars. He was talking about space. He was talking about Neuralink. He was talking about tunneling and Hyperloop. Whatever you think of those things and whether they work or not, they were big ideas. They were, yeah. And so smart people working on small ideas is really quite deflating in a lot of ways. And I think a lot of it is that, right? And Steve Jobs was perfect at making you see the vision of where it was going. Because, you know, this phone, even though they just released the skinny one.

26:07Kara Swisher:I don't know if you saw it. It's got that bump on it. I saw it last night. Yeah, the mega bump. The bump is weird. It's massive. It's also lopsided. That's my problem. Like maybe it's just a me thing. Steve wouldn't have liked that. Yeah, I go like, if you're going to make a phone that has a mega bump on the back. Make more bump. Make more bump. Because then when I put the phone down, it's flat. Now you have a phone that has like one corner and then it wobbles and it does a thing. Also, why am I resting my phone on the camera? I mean, maybe it's just me, but I'm like. Right. They have a case for it, but then it's now thick again.

26:35Kara Swisher:Yeah, but then what's the point of the thin phone? Correct. I said this to this Apple executive and they're like, God, you're annoying still. I had to sit through this lecture last night. It is. So he's 100 % right. The wobble. The wobble. And not just the wobble. You make the thinnest phone. Yeah. And then you put a fat battery on it and you tell me, look, we can put a battery. But then if I've got to put a fat battery on a thin phone, you've got me back to the fat phone. Just give me back this. Okay, but the gains of the fat back and the wobble, what are they? No, it's no gains. There's no gains.

27:03I have one camera instead of three. I have less battery life than I would have on the other one. Less battery with a bump on. It also charges slower.

27:11Kara Swisher:Right. So it charges slower. I've got fewer speaker grills. Yes, that's right. Come on. I'm not loving this new one, I have to say. You know what I do love? The new AirPods. Now, that's pretty. Those things are cool. Real-time translation? Well, AirPods should be, if it was a business by itself, it would be a massive business, right? It would be huge. And everyone made fun of them at the time they came out. If you remember, everyone was like, you look ridiculous. I'm like, no, no, these are fantastic. One of the things that to me will happen is someday we will have video cameras in them or some sort of camera.

27:38Kara Swisher:And it will start, it will be your, instead of wearing glasses, like, which some people are working on. Face meta has some. Apple obviously did Vision Pro. But these are where I think there's going to be visuals. and then it's going to talk to you. Like in that movie, Her, it'll be talking to you and like, okay, up ahead is that person. Go to the left, go here. And you'll constantly be interacting with some sort of AI that will speak to you all day long. What's the first tech that made you feel like you were living in the future? I always love asking this to like tech lovers. Oh, well, I'm a little older.

28:12Kara Swisher:The browser, the browser, the mosaic browser. Really? Yes, because look, you had computers. So not the computer, that was like okay-ish? They hadn't really innovated. I mean, there was that, there were a couple, not Dell's, what was the company? It's gone now. They had some small ones that were pretty cool, right? Actually, that's not true. There was something called General Magic that created the General Magic device. And it was an iPhone before there was an iPhone. Like how long are we talking about? It was a lot of the people who worked on iPhone later. This was the 80s, essentially. No way.

28:46I can't remember.

28:47Kara Swisher:I remember Apple had Newton, if you remember, a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, but I don't know about General Magic. General Magic was before that. And a lot of the people moved to the Newton Project. They kept trying to do it, right? And the guy, Tony Fidel, that ended up being critical to the iPod worked at General Magic. Like they were always trying to figure out this sort of – and it actually goes back to Star Trek. That's what they were trying to make. That little device that the – That's right, the communicator. The communicator, right? And so they were always trying to create that. And that was what that became.

29:18Kara Swisher:But General Magic had – and I have one. I have an original General Magic, was a block. It just was too big. And it had pictures of mail on a desk with a mail, with a mailbox and stuff like that. And you'd have a stylus. And it was just, it wasn't the right form factor, but it was directionally the correct version. And if you look at that, you're like, you could see the straight line into this. Same thing with the glasses and stuff. I have one of the original Google Glasses, which - Those massive ones? No, they weren't big, actually. Google Glass was quite skinny and then it had this weird little thing, this little square.

29:52Yes, they were not massive.

29:54Kara Swisher:Vision Pro is massive, is still big. And so are most of the meta ones, Oculus and everything else. Google Glass was small and it sat on your, it sat on, like it was very thin and then had a little thing. It just wasn't very functional. It didn't do much, right? And it would sit there. And one of the problems with it, when it first was introduced, I went to, my ex-wife worked for Google. So I went to a Christmas party and they had just introduced Google Glass, but nobody had them, but the Google people. And so everyone on the boat, she was in that division, had the Google Glass on, on a boat. It's such a great scene.

30:28Kara Swisher:And they wouldn't let me have it. They're like, you can't have it. I'm like, thank you. And they're wearing it and they were trying to get it to go. You go, hello, Google, or you made it, you said something like, hello, Google to it. yeah and then it was like the yes that was they have an action word right and they were all going hello google and they were turning on each other's google glass with the same thing at google parties they used to have really good food all the time and they'd have like a mountain of shrimp like really good shrimp like and i sat there eating shrimp like this is the worst thing it was like this is dystopia but the shrimp is delicious and and they didn't realize nobody would interact like this or and even sergey who wore them around all the time he's one of the founders sergey bren he'd wear them everywhere and they were so weird looking and unattractive and he was wearing them at a vanity fair oscar party and he came up and he goes nobody's talking to me and i'm like you're wearing those fucking google glass no celebrities don't want a picture at a party where they're smoking pot like are you kidding me like what do you take them off walking around with a camera yes exactly and he goes he goes oh what should i say i said say i'm a billionaire it'll work with these people like take off the glasses say i'm a billionaire but what happened with google glass and i think eventually it'll get better was um and i did say this to him and others at google at the time i said congratulations you've rendered remember they went to victoria's secret and they all had them on do you remember no i don't remember so they had to introduce it they did a victoria's secret event and all the supermodels had them on oh wow and so i was there and they go what do you think i go you've just made supermodels unfuckable how good for you well done boys that is technology it was well done guys but i think everything she's explained is what i find wrong with technology it almost feels like it makes you ignore the giant plate of shrimp in front of you right well but yeah you've never what shrimp is like what tech no but i like i like asking you you these things because you've always been my one of my non-techie friends yeah so you'll ask me questions and there's some tech that you'll adopt and then there's some tech that you want yes like which tech do you think is actually meaningful do you like even care I think after the radio we should have stopped oh wow Jesus Eugene wow we pushed it to television I told you this man's a Luddite I'm sold on television I love the butter churn you know what I actually like you might like this the aura although now they're working with the defense department so fuck that but this ring is really it's the beginning of the idea of monitoring your health a little bit I find this to be really interesting.

33:05Kara Swisher:And it gives you, I used to call a lot of these things unwearables because it was like your steps. What does that tell you about your health? Does it tell you anything? Oh, I did 10 ,000 steps. What does that mean? What should you do next? What I always wanted was a device either on your wrist or here in your ear. You'd eat a donut and we'd go, oh, that was a mistake. We'd talk to you and say, what you need to do is get up right now and walk a thousand steps and I'll tell you when you're done. Or what you need to do now is go get a kefir immediately and drink that down. Get those probiotics going.

33:36Get those probiotic going.

33:37Kara Swisher:But I would like something that has actionable information. And this one, especially for sleep, really does, gives you data that you can actually pay attention to and they have to start to interpret it. But that's the kind of thing you're hoping for. That would be useful. It's good for you and it makes you look committed. Yes, it does. Yeah. It's kind of too big though, because only guys made this. Let me just say. It needs to be this big because of all the sensors. but eventually it won't then wear space for your wedding ring I never I know I'm married I don't wear it don't say anything shh I don't like rings I don't like rings they make me feel like I'm captive just I do this like on the hand the ring itself on your finger makes you feel like I don't like I don't like rings some people like jewelry in general it's hard to wear on their fingers no just even even like around your neck as well sometimes you've never had a conversation with your wife about it She would like me to wear it more, and I try.

34:32Kara Swisher:I try my best. How many times does this topic come up? Many times. Thank you for bringing it up, and now she'll listen to this, and we'll have another one. Let me just say something. Let me give you a little tip for reporting. Ask a man how his wife is sometime. I always start in interviews with some weird personal question. Ask a man how their wife is. Many men do this. No. They fidget with the ring? They fidget and take it off. It's really interesting. Just try it. It seems like it's burning them from the rings or something. Burning their finger. That's like a weird. And they're always like, great, great, great.

35:04Kara Swisher:Everything's great. And I'm like, okay, now I know. I wonder if you could get all the data and see if there's any correlation between who took the ring off and how their relationship turned out. Right, exactly. Because maybe that's like a tell that someone's giving you. It's like, how's your relationship? And if they pull the ring off and then answer you and then put it back on. Maybe you can tell us because you've never had it on. It's because they know when you put it on. Well, that said, I'm not subject to that. I'm only wearing because I'm traveling I usually take it off in the morning so where do you keep the one that that was blessed for this union blessed yes because the Catholic Church loves a gay marriage

35:40Kara Swisher:it's in a box it's in a nice pretty box it's a pretty box and she wears probably from South Africa from your country from your country I'm fascinated by this because earlier on I was telling you that I'm actually entertaining the concept yeah of getting married. Okay, I have... What? I know, he just said that to me. He just told me. Wow. You see? You didn't know? Sorry. You know when we're together, you said maybe ask your friends. Yeah. Wow. What did I say? No, no, no, no, no, no. No, I'm saying about ask your friends. Oh, I said have you fix him up. Let me explain where the what came from. The what came from me finding out on a podcast that we are sharing here from Cara Swisher that you are considering getting married.

36:26Kara Swisher:Well, I'm a famous reporter, so that's clear. Also, I found out that you were a weird nerd who was brushing up against nothing cool your whole life. You knew this about me. Okay. You've always known this about me. Trevor, I didn't. He didn't know the shame that you had. I didn't know the shame that you carried. There was no shame. I was just a nerd enjoying myself. He had 100 % shame. He wished he could date girls. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you how much fun it was. Let me tell you something. Few things were more fun. Friday nights, I would be in my room with my PC. It's getting better by the second.

36:54With my PC. I'd have my PC and we had this deal in South Africa at the time where the service provider would give you internet that like the cost of dialing up wouldn't go beyond a certain price from 7pm on Friday night until 7am on Monday

37:13Kara Swisher:downtimes yeah right and so the maximum price was something like one dollar essentially which was otherwise you could pay like a thousand dollars if you weren't careful yes you could it used to be very expensive so I'd wait Friday night would come and I'd be sitting there with my PC. I had my whole rig. I'd plugged in car speakers that I would find from wrecked cars. And I created my own surround sound in my room. Wow. Right? So connected them all. Had my Winamp going. Winamp, of course. I'd wait for 7 p.m. That's an ARL product. I'd wait for 7 p.m. And then 7 p.m. would come. Click that modem, get going.

37:49Kara Swisher:Nice, nice. Well done. I'd get in and then my mom taught me how to make a rum and raisin whiskey concoction. Oh, wow. Okay. So I'd sit at home with a five liter, I don't know what that is, a gallon. I don't know how to convert these things. But of ice cream mixed with whiskey. Oh. And then I would dip my cup in and I would sip it and then I would chat to strangers from all over the world. Good times. That was a normal Friday night for you. Yeah. The best Friday night. Who's the person that you wanted me to ask? Do you see any shame? No. 100%. What? We're ashamed for you. We're ashamed of you. But I was really asking Cara about this.

38:30I was like, I really, really want to take that step. But my question to her was, is it better to do it with someone that you've known for a long time or get fixed up?

38:41Kara Swisher:No, I got fixed up on a blind date, my wife and I. Who fixed you up? Lydia Polgreen and her wife, Candy Fight. Right. What did they see in you and her? So I had broken up with someone and I had not ever been single my entire life. I went out with men too, many, many years when I was in high school and stuff. And I just hadn't been alone by myself. And I said, I'm going to be alone for a year. I did one of those things. And Candy called me and texted me and said, can I fix you up with someone? I have two people. I have two different, she was kind of a matchmaker personality. And she said i'll i'll said and i was i actually was going to a funeral and i was like well how about after the funeral right exactly i was wearing all i think i was wearing this jacket yeah i might intend out of death i know exactly and um and i said okay but i'm not going out with anyone for a year i'm not i'm gonna like i literally just how many months were you in now a month a month one month in still strong a month and a half maybe um and uh and i i said okay i'll go uh i'll start with one and we we they had a little dinner party uh kind of thing um in brooklyn and i went and i think we got married we had a baby a year later wow you never got to number two never got we did meet i met number two later very nice it was been a very excellent choice too wow so was there a moment when you met number two where you're like this could have been or was it No, I got the right one.

40:08Kara Swisher:She picked the right one, actually. She picked the right one. Oh, because that was the first option that she had for you. That she picked. That was the backup plan. Yes, and I really, really trusted her. And I think you should take advice from your friends. If they really care about you, they think about it. I got you, boo. So you want to drink ramen raisin? I got used to drink ramen raisin. Used to. Do you have someone for him? Used to. Do you? I can figure it out. No ways. I got you. No ways. I got you. The only way I got you. I only trust Trevor to pick the menu. oh okay alright I would never you never know but he has your best interest at heart I've got his thank you Cara I have his fully full best interest this is a guy who put me through talking about the hump on the iPhone for hours and hours but you know what he's right about that that's really upsetting that's what I'm talking about I was like these people it's a multi-trillion dollar company they didn't notice I said that to the executive so you know what my theory is there was a pretty big executive at this morning show premiere and he goes what do you think I'm like what's with the bump and he goes fuck you

41:07Kara Swisher:you didn't notice the bump all your multi-billion dollar can i tell you my theory what gen my genuine theory and i could be wrong on this i feel like the technology that's being made today not all of it but a lot of it is being made by people who are not using it using it so they're sort of like making theoretically but they're not using no no i think they had samsung envy you know because a lot for the thin phone the thin phone i think they wanted a thin phone There's no way someone was using that and was like, this is right. Well, it was interesting because when I saw it, I thought Steve Jobs would vomit on this phone.

41:38Kara Swisher:Like he would not like it. He would not have let it go like that. No way. No way. One of the things that was really interesting many years ago when I was partners with Walt Mossberg for years on our conference, our big code conference, where we had Steve Jobs and Bill Gates together and stuff like that. And we had Zuckerberg and Elon and everyone else. But Walt brought him the Zune. Remember the Zune? Oh, yeah, yeah. It was Brown. It was like, who picked a brown poop color? But it was a pretty good device. It was a good device. It didn't look good at all. It didn't look good. The color, and it was shape-y wrong.

42:09Kara Swisher:It had a wrong... The iPod had the golden means measurements. The ratio, right. The ratio, which was why you found it attractive. And you don't know why you did, but it was very nice to hold. And it's because Jobs used the golden means ratio, which is interesting. But the Zune was square. remember it was it was hard to hold it was just an ugly device so walt handed jobs the he goes let me see it and he's like i'm not supposed to show it to him jobs like let me see the fucking thing because he wasn't able to get it right and so he put it in jobs's hands and jobs went like this like that because he was such a drama queen but i think it actually repelled him he was like why did they make so many ugly things like why can't they make because a lot of them including Apple is the only thing that really did do things that were beautiful, were actually beautiful and beautiful to hold.

43:03Kara Swisher:And even Google, when they were trying to make, when they made their phone, and my ex-wife was a Google executive too. And remember they had the stacks? You had to go. Yes. Yeah. And I was using my phone, but she had to use the Android. And I was looking for an address. And I go, where is she? She goes, well, it's in the stacks. I'm like, what the fuck is the stacks? And she's like, the stacks, the stacks. And she's a tech person. And she goes, obviously the stacks. I was like, nobody normal knows what a stack is. And with iPhone, you could pick, a child could pick it up and use it. Yeah, it's the most intuitive device ever created.

43:37It's intuitive because it's simple.

43:38Kara Swisher:And one thing Steve Jobs used to say, he said it to me at least, was it's really, it's very complex to make things simple, but it's very simple to make things complex. And so a lot of people in Silicon Valley make things complex on purpose because it's easy for them, but they're not thinking like a consumer would use it. This conversation proves one thing to me. What? That I should never let him choose anything for me. Because me, because Kara was busy giving me advice about how option one became so great and you lured her in with your stags and your ramen raisin press. But. Wait, you know what?

44:17Actually, no. I think.

44:18Kara Swisher:We'll just help him. No, but can I tell you something that actually we're getting to which is important. Okay. That's why I like this triumvirate that we've created here. I think Cara is giving us an insight into the tech industry that to me sounds like there are too many like, let's just say cables that have been disconnected from people. Because what you just said is what I think is missing in dating apps and whatever. I think a lot of dating apps have a very simplistic idea of how dating and how relationships are formed. A person finds another person attractive, they link up, therefore it works.

44:58But it's like, no, no, no, no, no. If you think of what a working relationship is, everyone who's told me a story about being set up, obviously some people have bad stories. But when you even think of matchmakers in India, a great matchmaker in India will tell you, my job is not to just set you up. My job is to understand you and then understand you and figure out why you would or wouldn't work beyond what you may know or not know about yourself. And whenever I hear people talk about someone setting them up, like a friend of theirs or somebody, they go, you said the line, and I promise you everyone says it.

45:33They go, they're like a matchmaker type. There's a skill that they possess.

45:37Kara Swisher:Right, correct. Not everybody has it. Exactly. That enables them to see why you connect with you. But these apps don't necessarily do that. AI can do that eventually. Eventually, there will be. Yeah, but now they don't. Some of the algorithms do have things that are helpful. I mean, we're on our way to that. On the way, yes. Because you will read your facial expressions. Yes, on your way. They're doing job interviews like that. They can watch the facial expressions. We don't know what they mean mean yet. Well, actually, interestingly, I'm finishing up a documentary about future health right now because it's my next book talking about there's amazing things happening around tech and health and figuring out things.

46:13Kara Swisher:And one of the ones is this company in Boston, and it's from Mass Brigham Young, which is a big hospital there. It's doing testing there. And it's showing incredible promise. It's called Face Age. And you look at doctors when there's a cancer patient, looks at a cancer patient and decides whether they need more aggressive or less aggressive treatment. And they actually, among the many things they look at is the face. They're like, do they look too much? And a lot of doctors are doing it without actual science. They're just like, I have a feeling this person can take it more. And they use age. They don't even realize they're doing it.

46:47Kara Swisher:They're assessing people. They use the word assessment. But they just look, well, not at a glance. They're bringing lots of data in to figure it out. But there's this think of face age. And the AI looks at a face. And you will have a chronological age and a biological age. Your biological age could be a lot lower than your chronological age. and that means you should have more aggressive cancer treatment. Because you can take it. Because you can take it, but doctors don't always see it because they're looking at wrinkles, they're looking at all kinds of things, or maybe someone's a little creakier.

47:20But this AI has been accurate in telling doctors

47:25Kara Swisher:which patients can take treatment more aggressively. And this one woman I met, she's 82 years old, she looked older. She was wearing a wig, she looked older. She was 82, her face age was 70, to. And they gave her more aggressive treatment. She's cancer-free now. It's incredible. Like these AI will be able to have a lot of data that we don't quite understand the decision-making. It'll be part of a tool that doctors use. It can't be the decision-maker, but it'll be a tool that doctors use going forward. So AI will be able to fix you up eventually. Not today. No, I'm not kidding. Here's the thing.

48:00Kara Swisher:Let me ask you a question. What do you want? What are you looking for? Make a list. That's what I did. Cara, you know what I love about you? You care. I care. I care. No one has ever asked me this. I mean, some people wear cardigans and claim to be my friend. Wow. Oh, wow. Wow. I'm having a bad time. This is insane. This is awkward. This is awkward. What was on your list, though? What's on your list? What was on your list? Likes children, because I had two kids. And... Woman? Well, yes. Yes, that was... Me too. Yeah, okay, good. Excellent. We have the same list now. Flexible. As in dexterity? Physically is great, but no.

48:42Kara Swisher:More like flexible isn't rigid as a person. Sense of humor. Okay with change. I'm a very change-oriented person. I just sat there and wrote it down. Change as in you change the way you think, the way you dress. Not uncomfortable with change. Location. Whatever, just things happen, right? I had a whole list I'd have to find it please feel free I will send it to you but you have to make a list of what's most important to you and stack rank it I like your recommendations yeah stack rank it stack rank it are we going to stack now and then no go ahead back to stacks back to stacks okay go ahead what's the most important spontaneity okay good should that be at the top and you can say looks too you can be like I like a good looking lady okay good looking lady well to you a good looking lady yeah yeah what's number one Privacy Oh, that's number one?

49:36Yes Interesting Have you heard of the new iPhone? But more than anything, family-orientated

49:44Kara Swisher:Okay, there you go Yeah So look for that And don't, and if they're not, they don't, if it's not on the list, you gotta cut it loose We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break

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51:05Is it possible sometimes that you would not want to date someone because you wouldn't think they fit with your friendship circle? Yes, that's right. And if that happens, who goes? Do you dump the person or do you dump the friends? Oh, I think your friendship circle is more important.

51:18Kara Swisher:I think they have to be able to. Yes, I agree. I think they are. Your friends are way more important to you, Jean. Actually, study after study shows you live longer if you have a friendship circle. That is very true, Eugene. If you keep your friends close, you will live longer. Wait, wait, wait. So was it more helpful for you that she was recommended by a friend? Yeah. And then you got to keep her and the friendships. Yeah. You don't want your friends at cross purposes. That sucks. Nobody likes it. Look, it was, I had the funny, bad boyfriends are always the worst thing for a group of friends.

51:46Kara Swisher:If a friend has a bad boyfriend. Yeah. You're like, ugh, the bad boyfriend. And you know who that is, right? It is always funny when someone has a partner that everyone else is like, ugh. Are they coming with them? I had a friend who has someone we don't like. And it was very obvious. And everyone pretends, like doesn't say anything. And they're like, you don't like this person. I said, I don't. I really don't. And they were like, well, it's, you know, kind of you have to. And I'm like, and I named another friend of mine. I'm like, I've never met her fucking husband. I never hoped to. Like, I don't have to be friends with your partner.

52:21Kara Swisher:I said, if her husband fell on me, I wouldn't know it was her husband. So why do I? I've met you for the first time today and we've gone on like a house on fire. But you are a likable person. I am a likable person. You are an interesting person. I am an interesting person. You're an interested person. I am an interested person. What is it about that guy? I don't know. I just didn't. It was a woman. I didn't like her. She was mean. You just didn't feel her vibe. No, I didn't like them. You cannot like people. I like this. Yeah. One day, the other day, I said to someone, they're like, I said, I can't.

52:51Kara Swisher:They're not friends. It was a work thing. And they were like, why are you leaving? And I said, I don't want to talk to you anymore. They were like, what? They said, honestly, why are you leaving? I'm like, honestly? I'm done talking to you. I said, I'm done talking to you. And they were like, what? And I go, I wish I could say it any nicer, but that's really the reason. Damn, Cara. And then what does the opposite of that look like? You're walking into this apartment in Brooklyn. I just want to talk to you. I like hanging out with you. Yeah. Did you know it was her when you walked into the room?

53:17Kara Swisher:We met before because dating people are the TV for couples. They're like, oh, let's see what happens here. You know what I mean? We're entertainment. So we met before at a bar. So we both understood we would be the entertainment for the evening. And everyone was watching you. That's right. And so we met before, so we made sure that we had an initial like for each other. Was she also in tech? No, not at all. Was that refreshing? She was in journalism, so that was okay. Was that him being tech again? No, it was fine. I never dated anyone. No, you know why? Because, oh, refreshing, nicely done. No, my ex-wife is a techie.

53:56Kara Swisher:She was the CTO of America under Obama. Wow. I know. She worked at Google. CTO of America, yeah. No, the reason I'm asking is because I was going like, is it more refreshing to be with somebody who's in your world or somebody? So I like hanging out with Eugene partly because he doesn't care about half of those things that I'm talking about. Right, right. But then I sometimes go like, it is fun to be with somebody where - I feel like you two should have a little relationship. I wish. I'm not his type. I'm not his type all the things that he said never all the things that he said family oriented blah blah blah do you hang out with Bill Barr?

54:32Kara Swisher:is that me? you're a Bill Barr character? friends first that's me no but like yeah I just mean like you know the refreshing world because you how many years have you worked in tech? 12 20 30? 30 30 years yeah and I would say you know everyone who has done anything in tech you know well the you know i didn't know edison but yeah but i mean this is but um i would assume you didn't know the hewlett-packard people i met them later when they were older but from jobs and gates on but that's what i mean that's that is the tech we know no there were people before that there were all these companies yes but i'm not assuming you've lived forever that's what i'm saying that's right yes some from gates and jobs on cool so how much of this do you now see as your career and how much of it do you see as your passion because i when i'm when i listen to you speak yeah okay okay cool all right cool i love it i i wouldn't you know one of the reason my book was called burn book a love story a tech a tech love story i love tech i'm just pissed at what they did to it like when pissed that they had to take all the juicy bits for themselves rather than what do you mean by that well look look the internet was was built by the u.s government and it was paid for by the u.s taxpayer but who made all the money a small group of largely white men, right?

55:48Kara Swisher:That's what happened there, right? In fact, almost to a person. And I don't understand why everybody doesn't benefit from the fruits of this amazing technology except for a small group of people. And I don't understand why a small group of people gets to decide everything for the rest of us. Why didn't they ever have any regulation? Why wasn't there any input by citizens on so much of this stuff around privacy? Why do they design things that are so damaging to people? Why can't they not do that? And why don't they lean into the good parts and mitigate the bad parts? Why do they not care about the bad parts and don't feel it's their responsibility?

56:27Kara Swisher:So that's what it was. The amazing things tech can do for people, bringing people. I have a vision of, the way I put it in the book was, I have a vision of Star Trek. And we live in Star Wars. Damn. You know, and Star Trek is an amazing vision of the future about diversity in its best light, in people understanding each other, where villains are complex. Cooperation. Cooperation. Problems too and everything else. Common cause. Yeah. Cool outfits. And Star Wars is a very dark and dystopian vision about power and evil ultimately succeeding. They never win. Yeah, never win. The good people never win, you know, at the end.

57:08It's just a constant slog.

57:09Kara Swisher:It's a constant slog against the abuse of technology by powerful people. And so I am furious at them for taking something that could bring people together and not caring enough to take out the parts that bring people apart, right? Like antisemitism or whatever. And then hiding behind one of the most astonishing amendments in history, the free speech, right? Pretending they're all about free speech when they're not interested they're interested in their free speech and nobody else's right so when you when you've seen them over over the years I wonder how much you've seen them change because I I remember um having a conversation once with a politician and it was interesting to see how much they didn't recognize themselves in the person that they were so I met a politician and then 10 years later I was in an interview with them and I asked them about something that they had said 10 years ago but I didn't say it was them I just said this is an idea what do you think and they're like i think that's unrealistic and you gotta understand that that's not how the real world works and i was like you said that and they're like i don't know if i said that i i was like no no you said that sounds like obama but go ahead but it's but there's so many politicians i had that conversation with obama really oh yeah about um encryption and what was the conversation he was like we need to open up the it was that was encryption it was about yeah i think it was about something where he had said one thing and then he he later said something else and he goes well if you knew what i knew now and i was like oh stop but that's but that's what i wonder with like the tech guys as well is look maybe i'm taking them at face value when i see a lot of them launch an idea maybe not today because today the money is really in the forefront everything is like can it scale yeah will it be a unicorn why am i at this dinner with trump why tim cook am i giving trump a golden statue yes i know he is dying inside i know it i don't care he can deny all he wants.

59:02Kara Swisher:I know he is. But my question is, what have they lost that they had in the beginning? Because in the beginning, it starts as a... Hope. You think it's hope? Well, it's interesting because someone like Sam Altman, I knew him when he was 19. He was really interesting as a 19-year-old when he did Loopt, which was a failure, his company. It was at location services. I don't even remember what it did, but it was a location pinger kind of thing. And parts of it remain. I think people are often the way they are when I met them early or the way they are now, just with more money. And then money has its deleterious effects.

59:37Kara Swisher:Or too much money. Or too much, you know, they have a lot of people licking them up and down and agreeing with them violently about everything. Oh, right. Good job. And I think what happens is they become, do you remember in Succession, as you watch that show, which I think that was a fantastic show depicting wealth and power, what happens and the deleterious effects of it. their worlds kept getting smaller and smaller in their homes they went from their tight little cashmere homes to their cars to their planes to their boats and they never encountered people right they say less and less the last scene of succession i thought reminds me of tech people a lot think about that last scene besides the guy who died logan roy everybody the main the the oldest son he was alone by himself by the water alone yeah with with a was a security guy that coupled uh uh was together tom and um shiv they were in an insulated car expensive car by themselves you know what i mean they were insulated they went from the hotel room down through the kitchen through the thing there was only one person who was with people real people was the other son He's in a bar and he's the only one that's happy.

1:00:53Kara Swisher:And I thought it said a lot. So these people, they go from their cars to their yachts, to their homes, to like Mark Zuckerberg has a compound in Palo Alto. That means nobody gets in, nobody gets out. And so if you're like that and you're constantly being told you're smart and every idea is right, you never get a feedback of, you fucking asshole, what are you kidding? And you either bring it into your life, like Mark Cuban enjoys feedback. He will listen. he's doing great. He's a great guy because he will listen to people who disagree with him. And he'll seek out Pete. He was just with Tucker Carlson.

1:01:26Kara Swisher:I wrote him like, what the fuck? He goes, I got to listen to him. Like he's open to hearing from lots of different people. And then there's people like Zuckerberg who has a compound and then he bought half of Hawaii and then he bought this. It's to insulate yourself from everyone else. And if you start off as kind of a bit of a broken person or a jerk, like Jeff Bezos was always a jerk in my memory. Like he was a jerk to start with and he's a bigger jerk now um when you have money and the deleterious effects of wealth they become worse it it emphasizes the way you were the way you initially amplifies it it amplifies it just makes you more of you you know this is like he was so interesting and he's not what you've explained about people being insulated from the truth once they acquire a certain amount of power It's like, are you a big fan of The Sopranos?

1:02:17Kara Swisher:I love The Sopranos, of course. Remember the episode where Tony Bandetto came out of prison and then he was hanging out with Tony and the rest of the goons? Then he made that joke about, boy, you're a flat. And then Tony got offended, called him to the side and said, I know we joke around, but I'm the boss now. Oh, right. Because he's changed. He can't be told that. Yes, they're like that. And it depends on the person. You know, when I run into some people and I'll say, what are you talking about? And they're like, oh, my people agree with me. I'm like, oh, really? They work for you and they're dependent on you.

1:02:50Kara Swisher:They, you know, just, I mean, the board of Tesla is a really good example. They cannot have been running this thing correctly, given what's happened, and then want to give them a trillion dollar pay package. So far, the record in the recent years has been pretty problematic, right? Not just the lack of sales, but everything, the drug use, the, you know, the crazy political posturing any other company they would have been like you need to move along in that job of yours you need to like we need to get someone else to figure out how to keep this company going you know i'm always torn with those types of stories because i go i know this is this is a crazy alt take in that in that way go ahead but i sometimes wonder if some of these guys are screwed over by the fact that now they're in the public eye in a different way because we don't we don't really know what many of the great inventors in life thought they didn't have twitter they didn't at Facebook.

1:03:43Like maybe they're writing, but I'm saying it wasn't a front facing.

1:03:47Kara Swisher:Oh no, Edison was quite a jerk and also was abusive of tabloids at the time. Oh damn. He put all kinds of nasty shit out about Tesla. Oh yeah, when they were having the beef. Yes. He was trying to undermine his technology. He undermined it, but he used reporters of the day. So it's the same old, same old thing. Good of the day. Yeah. He used to, Tesla's a very sad story. What an inventor, but he got he got mowed under he got turfed by edison because edison knew how to use and manipulate the press but what i'm saying is we didn't own the we we went there but do you think it was as easy to know who edison was was for the people oh yes no he was you think people like knew him as like oh yeah very famous very he was a he was you know look someone else like charles linbergh very famous most famous person of the day turned out to be a you know a virulent anti-semite and a lover of Hitler.

1:04:40Kara Swisher:But yeah, no, some people had worldwide celebrity. Like some people had. For their, like the bad side of their. They didn't know the bad side. No, that's what I mean. Sorry, sorry. That's what I'm trying to say is I'm going. Back in the day, it was a lot easier to obscure who you were and put out who you want people to think you are. I think that's what I mean. Yes, no, it is. No, it is. And I'm saying like now, someone like Elon gets exposed way more than he would if he was in like the 1920s. Well, that's because he doesn't shut the fuck up. At some point, you're like, stop, put down. Like I used to, when after we stopped getting along, I used to put stuff out because I knew he read my stuff at like two in the morning because I knew he was up.

1:05:19Kara Swisher:That is hilarious. and i would i put up you told him kanye west put up the fat picture of him with aria man you'll remember that yeah yeah and kanye west is the one that did that and it was like oh man what happened and i i i never and i'm not on twitter anymore even though i have 1.5 million followers um and i and he wrote something really awful as always and then i was like oh man i just did that i just said oh man and five seconds later elon blocked me it was so funny but i knew he's so easy I was like oh my god you're a billionaire if I was a let me tell you remember when he was at Mar-a-Lago for New Year's Eve oh yeah for the big party here's what I thought to myself I'm the richest man in the world and I'm fucking at Mar-a-Lago with all these stiffs like and this guy dancing to YMCA like if I'm the richest person in the world you know where I am I just bought France and I've given everybody free wine and we're all you know what I mean and Beyonce is there we need to give Connor Spisher all the money in the world this sounds like a fun world wouldn't you buy a country give everybody the wine you know what's funny about that story is do you remember like I don't know why there's some moments that are seared into my brain do you remember when Trump was like basically saying Elon's annoying and he's sick of him being around yeah so there was but this is like in public this is not a secret thing not on the side no no no you can see this they were talking to him about Elon and his work and whatever and Trump was like yeah you know Elon very smart he's doing big things doing big big things very smart he's been around always here always here sometimes I wonder when he's gonna go but he doesn't go he's here every day I go don't you have to run a company or something but he stays he stays good old Elon good old Elon get the fuck out of here you know get the fuck out of here he needed the money he needed the money he needed the money I was like for Trump to be like who is this loser who I can't get rid of he's like you've done your job you gave me the money you can go help me with the election get the fuck out move on now you know when he first started showing up there like and he was because after the election, they're like, oh, he'll go.

1:07:21Kara Swisher:I'm like, oh, he's not going to go. He has nowhere to go. You called it? Oh, oh. The fact that he's going to stay? Oh, I thought he was going to stay. And so I ran into a Trump person pretty high up. And he goes, oh, you're so mean about Elon. I go, he's fucking nuts. You'll see. I said, he has a drug problem. It has been well reported by the New York Times. He's got, well, he doesn't consider it a problem, whatever. He likes the ketamine and stuff like that. He talks about it. He likes the ketamine. And I said, and he's really irritating. like he really is just so you know and he's become more irritating now and you can see it and and they're like oh you're just jealous we have musk i'm like okay good luck four weeks later this person i ran into they're like oh my god and i was like i told you and they're like you were right he won't leave and i was like he's not leaving i said he goes when we move up to white house he'll leave i go he won't leave and he didn't remember he was always go anywhere he didn't go he's like no in the White House we can keep him out I'm like you can't keep him out he became the White House mascot like next to the desk with that kid that poor kid yeah yeah wait so how could they not keep him out of the White House because Trump said it was okay you could have easily just blocked someone Trump is like Tony Sprann he likes people hanging around yeah and also remember like Trump if you go back in his life I think it was his dad who taught him a lesson he said always stay close to the richest most powerful people that you can yeah so Trump faces that dichotomy I also think he likes a crew because he's lonely yeah but he likes cool yeah and I think he has he actually has an acute sense of what cool is yeah but sometimes he's stuck with the uncool but it's attached to the rich or the powerful and he's like i gotta hang out here he just said it recently he said he's got to come back who said it Elon yeah Trump did now i thought he shouldn't have said that he won't come back now he won't come back no because because also they were when they were saying you know we got Elon i go oh it's gonna break up bad i said it publicly i was like this is gonna be like there can be only one it's highlander time here everybody and it's going to be Trump.

1:09:15Kara Swisher:FYI. I love that. They're making it again. They're making it again. We're the princess of the universe. Ah! Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Ah, what a time. Who is that? Christopher Lambert. Lambert. Lambert, right. Lambert, I think, yes. Yeah, yeah. And of course, Sean Connery. No, they're making it again. I forget who the star is. You think it's going to be any good? Oh, yeah. What, you think so? Oh, yeah. It's a good cast. Okay, yeah, but the cost for me doesn't sell. Well, the first one's great. It's like Roadhouse, right? You just trust that it's... Roadhouse, the original Roadhouse is the finest movie in the land.

1:09:54Kara Swisher:I don't know, Cara. I feel like movies are in the same world that tech is right now. Oh, they're recopying themselves. And also nothing feel, not nothing, nothing. There's a few things that pop out, don't get me wrong. But for the most part, if I look at the average... Like weapons or sinners. Yeah, exactly. Weapons, sinners. It's funny. Yesterday we were talking about those exact same movies. Yeah, but I just feel like it's less adventurous, it's less edgy, it's less interesting, it's less imaginative, it's less... Yes, it's limited. But I think there's always been sequels. I think we always say that, like, this donut's not as delicious as it used to be.

1:10:28Kara Swisher:And it kind of is. It wasn't very good before. We have memories that maybe... Because what was your formative movie? My formative movie... I'm guessing Star Wars. No, The Matrix. Matrix, okay. Yeah, nothing has shaped how I perceive. And not like, is it real? Is it not real? Not like that. Not like, oh, red, pulled blue. No, actually, that stuff I think is dumb in the way people interpret it, to be honest with you. Right. It was, first of all, the computer world. Yeah, also amazing. Yeah, the way. Great story. That's why you liked it. Yes. It was not because it was the tech. It was the story. No, but I did love the aspects of tech.

1:11:05And remember, for me, I was this little kid watching this guy who's like a loser in his world. Right. Which guy? And then you go Keanu Reeves No I meant this person Not you Not you Keanu Reeves So I was watching Keanu Reeves This like sort of loser Who's in his bedroom The whole time And he's doing And I was like man His bedroom There's a world where you could PCI slot Yeah you could You could become Because remember He's like in there And they come and They come and buy the Go back

1:11:32Hyperloopative

1:11:33Kara Swisher:I could be a rapper Go ahead Except for being A dull white woman There was that element of it who can't sing.

1:11:46Kara Swisher:Do you know, my sons are really good. I'm going to take it aside. My sons have really good musical taste. And I had, they were using my Spotify at one point and just making playlists and stuff like that. And I think the guy who's head of Spotify, I was like, you have great musical taste. I'm like, what are you talking about? He goes, and they said someone and I was like, who's that? Like, cause I didn't know my sons were making. Oh, they were like making your playlist. Yeah. Making your playlist. So I look cool. Nice. So you love the matrix? Yeah, it was just, it was everything. It was like everything, everything, everything.

1:12:14But the most important thing, okay, this is why I think it's formative. And this is, I have this theory and you know I say this to you. I apologize for saying it to you again, Eugene. I'll say it to you, I've never said it to you. I think we take for granted how powerful the stories we are told can be and what they can do to us. Because they shape how we then perceive the world and what we think is or isn't possible. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. and so that's what like the matrix forced me to think of the world differently and what the world

1:12:44Kara Swisher:is really like exactly about the layers of it who's in who's not in right who are you who do you pretend to be what's real what's not real what's you know and for me one of the most powerful scenes in the matrix the one that like really really got me was the scene of agent smith with morpheus where morpheus is sitting in the chair and he's restrained and agent smith comes up to you know and he's like wiping yeah you know he kicks the other agents out of the room and then he's like get out get out and then he talks to him and he goes and he says like you want to know what it is about this place it's the smell if there is and he goes they hated being there yeah but what i loved was how like to what you said earlier complicated villains yes that's right he was a i was like imagine this guy hates that he's there he hates that he has to be there he hates that he has to and it was one of the first like the dc national guard right now yeah he was no they just released a report and they're like they were like we hate being there we hate we're embarrassed there you go yeah it was an internal report that just got out wow guards themselves i feel i never mean to them there you go they don't want to be there yeah but there you go and what it did for me was it opened my eyes to the possibility that the prison guard could also sometimes hate being in the prison.

1:14:00Kara Swisher:Right, right, yeah. Do you know what I mean? 100%. Absolutely, yeah. And then it's like, the way I thought of all of it, he wanted to be free and that's why it shaped it. Yeah. What was your one? Terminator. I love the Terminator. Which one? The first one, all of them. Was the first one the formative one? The first one was the formative one. Okay. What was it about Terminator? Point to the same maker, right? Same, no, no, no. Matrix and Terminator. No, no, Cameron and Wachowski. No, the writer. I'm saying the creator. No, no, no. No, no, Cameron and Wachowski. I think the person that wrote Cameron wrote Terminator Terminator and then Wachowski Wachowski no then the Wachowski wrote The Matrix similar probably Influence I bet they were influenced by Terminator I mean you have to be Influence yes I just love that movie it was so I love time travel I love time travel movies I love time travel books I think I would love to be able to time travel and I always was attracted Ray Bradbury stories you know I even like Time Cop with John Claude Van Damme I like I'll watch any time travel Time Cop was what a movie what a deep cut fantastic movie and so um so it was uh anyway i loved it and i just the idea of can you change time was always really interesting to me and just the schwarzenegger was amazing the visuals were amazing the ideas they were fucked up ideas they're really fucked up ideas of what the future is and what was really interesting was the idea that it wasn't the machines that are the problem it was people right people not understanding the power of the machines and so i just it was always resonated and of course gladiator who doesn't love gladiator but that's just the finest movie in the land too another well roadhouse roadhouse is my favorite movie formative we just watched it again i do the annual roadhouse watching and not the jake gyllenhaal pathetic version the original shots fired original formative movie it has to be Norton and Pitt Fight Club oh I like that that's a nice one it almost feels like it made you see the world in a different way through the characters that played in that world for example Meatloaf he wasn't a rock star there you were just a guy with huge man boobs and then for a long time in the movie you're caught up thinking Tyler Durden and the other guy are two different people and all along he was having a conversation with himself spoiler alert You're supposed to say that.

1:16:18You're supposed to.

1:16:18Kara Swisher:That's all right. It's old. It's too late. You know what would happen to you if we're in Fight Club? It's their own damn problem. You know what would happen to him if we're in Fight Club? I'd go. Then blood would just seep through my teeth. Oh, wow. Okay. Wow. Okay. So, okay. You know what? Actually, so this is why I'm, you know, some people think it's a stretch, but you did bring it up with Star Trek. People take for granted how much the technology that is made today or the technology that has been made over the past few years yeah was made by people who were inspired to make it by the movies they were watching as kids that's right like they watched something and they went oh could we make deeply impacted by sci-fi exactly deeply like we've had so many discussions about sci-fi and the stuff he is interested in it's crazy like many of them are and that's that's what so this is why i hop on about like art yes not in the highfalutin sense i just go you know people be like who cares if movies become terrible not just movies stories yeah stories books whatever it is whatever the stuff that's getting out there cartoons all of it yeah that stuff tells a kid what to imagine and what to think about that kid grows up into a man or a woman who is now going to try and create a certain type of future based on the imagination that they have inherited right and then if they don't have a good enough imagination like i think of all the movies and tv shows now that make the best thing you can be a billionaire rich rich money money rich rich money no no creativity really just like money money rich rich power power rich rich money money money and then i go what does that mean for like the generation that grows up watching that if they aspire to just be well maybe they're not getting the art from there there's a lot of television shows that are really powerful definitely look i hope so yeah so now i mean like listen what i watched was like gilligan's island and you know love american style love boat so and somehow how I made it through.

1:18:06Kara Swisher:Like sometimes I think we overestimate the negative effects of some of this stuff. Oh, not the negative. I just, I don't underestimate the inspirational effects. Right, right. But look, go back and look at H.G. Wells. Read that sometime. That guy clocked, Leonardo da Vinci clocked a lot of stuff, right? I mean, if you go look at his drawings, you're like, how did he know that? Yeah, you do. Right? How did he get it? They might've been time travelers. Maybe so. Where would you go in time if you could travel? Definitely forwards. You can't go forwards. What do you mean? I'm just trying. I've made the rule.

1:18:37Kara Swisher:I'm now - Yeah, okay. You can't. Thank you. You can't go - All right, so I have to go backwards. Backwards. Only backwards. Okay, let me think. This is a difficult - Okay, let's establish a few rules. If I'm going backwards in time, am I going to meet me - How does your time travel work? Am I - Oh, the time tap wave, you see yourself, you blow up. Like, do I exist in the back? No. You do. I do. Why? No, no, these are the rules. It's fine. You have to. Wait, but I need to, but I'm going to get involved soon. You can't go meet yourself. Let's just go say you can't. No, that's why I'm trying to establish the rules.

1:19:09Okay, so in your rules, I do exist there. Okay, then that changes quite a few things. You see, I knew this was going to happen. He added a complication.

1:19:17Kara Swisher:You could nail yourself a letter and say buy Apple. There we go. Go ahead. You see, I wouldn't, you see, honestly, I'm just saying you can do that. Can I tell you, I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking of time travel and I worry about it because for me at least, is I go, I don't know what the butterfly effect would be of changing any one aspect of my life. And I work, so you're saying - But it won't matter because you're not coming back. No. Into the present. So whatever change happens is what is. Yes, but my point is, I don't know how that turns out. So to your point, let's say I tell myself at a young age, buy Apple stock.

1:19:51First of all, I'll go, what is Apple? What is stock? What is buying? What is money? Don't go too far back. No, but no, no. But even at that age, I didn't, I remember, yo, let me tell you a crazy, I remember when Alibaba was listing. It had its IPO I was in South Africa For some reason I'd been deep in reading about Alibaba as a tech company And then I went to like a bunch of people in banking and stuff And I was like, can I get in on the IPO? And people were like, what are you talking about? I said, there's an Alibaba IPO And they're like, hey Baba, what are you talking about?

1:20:22Kara Swisher:So you didn't get in No, and I didn't And now we have, like now you can buy, you know, derivative shares You can do different things that you could back then then you could back then. But what I mean is, I don't know. I go back and then what happens? You know what I might do? I might use my time travel powers to go back like a few hours. Oh, hours. Oh, nice. How about that? Maybe five minutes from now. Like you want me to go five minutes back? Yes, because you edit the complication of am I there? Am I not? What is money? You know what I would go back to if I could time travel? I would go back to the moment when I met you.

1:20:55Oh, Trevor. That's the moment I would go back to. That's what I would have chosen as well. That's the moment I would go back to. Thank you so much. And then I would turn around and not walk into that building, Eugene. Because I'd be like, this person is going to roast me for the rest of my life.

1:21:07Kara Swisher:Ah, that's good. No, you wouldn't. You'd be so sad. That's what I would go back to. I would never. No, I would never. I would never erase this. I would literally go back and meet Jesus. Wow. Would he know he's Jesus at the time? I don't know. I'd need to find out. Jesus knew he was Jesus. No, but there was times where people have been saying he didn't know he was. No, but Jesus knew he was Jesus. We don't know. So he was rolling with his uncle, going to other places. So you would go, what age Jesus would you want to go back to meet? Right as he started. He started being Jesus. You could have been then one of the wise men because that's basically what they did.

1:21:35Kara Swisher:They didn't let men be that. We don't know that they let men or not men. You're right. The Gnostic Gospels. I got it. Yes. Right. Okay. Also, we don't even know what. Wait, wait, wait. They don't let who? Women. Because here's the thing. There's two things. Wasn't Mary Magdalene? Yeah, but no, no. No, she was not a whore. She was not. She was not. That was men writing the history. There's two things we also forget though. and one of the big ones is we forget how many times in the Bible it was possible to just like cover yourself in a certain way and people were like, oh, you're a man or you're a woman.

1:22:01Kara Swisher:So you could have snuck in. Actually, the Gnostic Gospels show that there are a lot of women involved. It's just the ones that survived are the ones we're using. It's a history we survived. So I would want to meet Jesus. Probably one of the more significant people. But what age still? What age still? Right when the historical, I'm talking about the historical Jesus. Like who was this person and to meet that person? Oh, you don't mean Bible Jesus. Well, is Bible Jesus historical? I want to see. Like, what happened? I'd like to see it. I'd like to see what happened. And what age are you thinking?

1:22:31Kara Swisher:Whatever. 20. What was he? 20? 20. 20, right? 25, 24, 23. Yes, because... Would you tell Jesus that he's going to get crucified? No. Damn. No. Would you like to meet confident Jesus or... Confident Jesus. It was always confident. Or insecure Jesus. Because there was Jesus where he was like, no. No, there was Jesus where he was doubting. Yeah, yeah. Oh, in the thing? Yeah. Oh, like you could go to the garden and go, run? Run. Like, get out. Get out. Then he turns to Joseph and goes, you're not my dad. That guy's not your friend. I would actually go to history in lots of places. Like, Caesar, don't go to work today.

1:23:10Just let me do this. Go to Keo Patrick. Don't get in the carpet.

1:23:12Kara Swisher:Get on that chariot and head out of Rome. Just going back and like spoiling every moment from history. I know. Like, Lincoln, don't go to the theater. don't go to the theater tonight you just go stay home with your crazy wife just spoil the end of the play just be like oh in the end of the play they find out that the woman had another family oh why did you do that I don't want to watch it anymore yes but then nobody could do the other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play you know they couldn't do that joke we lose a great joke we lose a great joke that's a tough one wouldn't that be funny to wander through history and be like leave don't go to the theater it would be so cool to do I mean if we don't think about what it would cause it would be really fun to just go and do that Amelia Earhart don't get on that plane yeah don't go just go like just don't what do women think about Amelia Earhart do they think women think we got together last week we like her you know more women than me I don't know I don't think people think of Amelia Earhart that much we think about her they probably think she's really interesting Eugene thinks about her all the time do you Amelia Earhart is Eugene's Roman Empire she's a little more complex than people you know they have this vision of her but actually She had a lot of some not so great things about her.

1:24:23Kara Swisher:I mean, she was complex. She was very complex. She was a human being. Where would you go in time? I would go hang out with David Chase when he was still thinking about making The Sopranos. I would just be his friend. I would just contribute. Because I love The Sopranos so much. I even watched how they were doing the casting and who would have gotten which role before which role and he was at the precipice of making some of the best television my son loves the Sopranos I love the Sopranos you don't worry that you would throw it off by being there knowing what it's going to be why do I care it's me time traveling here now I must care about everyone's feelings here but then there's no Sopranos is what I'm saying so you don't care there will be the Sopranos it's like Back to the Future yes here you go Biff or no or whatever because every time after I land in LaGuardia I go yeah you do and then that's why immigration always pulls him aside some every now and then i go i go back in time and i'd say yes to those job offers at tech companies like why yeah why did you never get into tech there were so many of them so it must go back i might be because then i would have a billions billions of dollars right now and then i would be able to be like really getting france drunk like you know no but actually let's talk a little bit about that it's like you were you were in tech when tech was still like, it was really the wild, wild west.

1:25:47Kara Swisher:Yeah. No, I was offered a job at AOL in the early days. I was offered a job at Facebook in the very early days, at Google in the very early days, and Amazon in the very early days. Do you know how many billions you've just told us? That's correct. And I kind of would be like, interesting. It would be a different world. I would have used it politically for sure. But let's pretend we're 10 years from now and we're going back in time. which decisions would you make now to get us wealthy to get us wealthy yeah what would we buy now see i'm gonna do it again i'm gonna fuck up again but um i'd probably do some something in ai in an area i knew about like what it's good it'll be hard it'll be hard to know which one's gonna win though right you never know which one's gonna win yes we don't know until there were seven or eight googles before there was google right there was excite there was there was um there's a bunch of them that were all search engines they just didn't work i'm blanking on all the names i covered them all but there were a lot like google before there was google i i'm still there was my space before there was facebook there was my space and before that there was another one and i'm blanking on that name but there was there was a bunch of them yeah but i want to know why like you love tech right you still love tech and you kept saying do you know why you said no well you know at one point, I think it was Ted Leonsis, he's now a billionaire and he owns a bunch of teams and stuff.

1:27:10Kara Swisher:And he used to send me the amount of money I would have had had I taken his job. His favorite trolling. But he doesn't do that so much anymore. But at one point I said to one of them, I think it might have been at Amazon, they wanted an editor job. They had an editor job free. And I said, why would I want to do that? I work for the Washington Post, something like that. I think I liked what I did. And I, you know, at some point - Where was this job? That was an Amazon job, I think. That is crazy irony. One of the - What a loop. Why would I want this job at Amazon? I work at the Washington Post.

1:27:43And then Amazon goes and buys the Washington Post.

1:27:46Kara Swisher:Well, Jeff does. It's almost like Jeff Bezos heard that. I could have bought the - I still could buy the Washington Post. And then all you hear is - I think I was just, I think there is a point where - There is a number where more money doesn't matter. It really does. It doesn't make you any happier, right? unless you want to buy France and buy everybody a glass of wine. You do need that money. But there is actually, and there's study after study about this. There's a number where people are - You've also seen it though. Yes. Like you've been on the inside seeing these people become some of the richest men in the world and still be very unhappy.

1:28:18I would have to say, on my hand I can count the people who are happy,

1:28:22Kara Swisher:who I consider. Really? Mark Cuban would be one of them that are really truly happy. What do you find the other people show you that you deem unhappy? What is it that they - They're deeply insecure. They are constantly aggrieved. There's a lot of aggrievement among the wealthy people. Have you noticed that? Zuckerberg to me is the most, the worst. Like, you know, everyone's always attacking me. I'm like, oh, Trump is the same way. He's always being under, he's out of under siege. Live like that. That's a terrible way to live. Very few are, I would say, really happy people in a lot of ways. and the people that stop sort of being so ultra competitive and demented are happier people right um i suspect bill gates is a happier person now after he did all the philanthropy than before i like this you you when i met you there you looked like the kind of person who always chooses passion and happiness yeah so when you were young i like making money who did you look at and go i love being happy i don't have any heroes no no my dad died when i was young and my mom's kind of complex.

1:29:26Kara Swisher:But I would say, I just like doing what I like to do. I know it sounds dumb, but when I think about every time I have been successful, I do things that please me, right? I think I like doing this. And I was very formed by Steve Jobs' speech that he gave at Stanford, which I recommend to everybody. He was sick and then he was well for a little bit and then for quite a few years. And then he got sick again. And one of the things I think about was he was critical to inventing the most important things when he was sick. He really was. The iPhone, iPod, everything like that. And one of the things he gave this speech at Stanford that I read and I listen to all the time, and it basically says, remembering you're going to die someday is the single greatest motivator for me.

1:30:20Kara Swisher:When I'm doing things day after day that I don't like, I know I have to stop, right? And I think it really resonated with me. When my dad died, I was like, you know what? He was 34 years old. He just got out of the Navy, just started to make money, and he died just like that. Now, he didn't know. He didn't, obviously, he had three kids. He was beginning his life, really beginning, you know, his life, it's fine. And he came from a not in the Navy and everything else. And I do, I think about that. I'm like, do I, is this the way I want to, and Jobs talked about this. Is this the way I want to spend my day?

1:30:55Kara Swisher:Like with that. And so when I remember when I was like offered, I think it was a fate, one of the Facebook people, it was Owen Van Atta who said, come to Facebook. And I was like, and I happen to like him, but I was like, I don't want to be with you people all day. Like, I just don't, I just don't want to, I don't want to be here. And I think that was what it is. And so everything I do now, I stopped doing things when I don't want to be there anymore. And it's very easy. Same thing with having kids when I was older. I was much older. I was like, yes, I would like some kids. I'm going to do that.

1:31:27Kara Swisher:And so I think that's, and I have the choice. I have the luxury of choice that other people don't. And that's the other thing. Other people don't have a choice. And to be whiny and bitchy about things when you have all these choices seems yeah but i i often think the great responsibility that everybody has is knowing when they have the choice because i think i think a lot of people in life don't have the choice and you'll be surprised how many people do have the choice but then still live like they don't have the choice they don't they don't and if you don't know that you have the choice and you're living like you don't have it i almost go you've sort of done yourself a disservice because you have the thing that most people don't have and you're not using it.

1:32:08Kara Swisher:And I think that's sort of where we are in a society. With women, it's interesting because a lot of women come to you. Now a lot of media people come to me for advice. They're like, how did you do it? I want to do it. And I like that they want to do it. And sometimes I'm like, maybe not you, but sometimes, well, you can tell who's entrepreneurial and who's not, right? And often, I'll never forget this one woman came to me and she said, she was an executive, always number two. Often women are number two in a lot of these companies or three or something, but never one, right? Men are very easy to step up to one, very easy.

1:32:41Kara Swisher:And you notice that, it's very clear. And she's like, she goes, I want your advice, what should I do? And I said, well, what do you want to do? That's what I said, what do you want to do? And she said, well, I've been offered this, this, and this. And I said, uh-huh. And she goes, and I'm thinking this. I go, I didn't ask you what you were offered. I asked you what you want to do. You didn't hear me, what I said to you. She goes, what's the difference? I go, oh, it's a huge difference. Offered is like, this man wants to marry me. This man wants to marry me. That's what you got offered. That's not who you want to marry.

1:33:13Kara Swisher:Maybe you do. Maybe you don't. And I said, the metaphor to me is a restaurant. You go in and they have chicken, pork, and lamb and you want duck, ask for the fucking duck. And she was like, well, what if they don't have duck? I said, they have duck. It's back there. And she goes, what if they don't have duck? I said, they have fucking duck. And she goes, what if they don't have duck? I said, then leave the restaurant and go find the duck restaurant. Like, I don't know what to tell you. If you want duck, have fucking duck. And she's like, what are you talking about? I was like, I am a genius. I said, I am giving you this pearl of fucking wisdom.

1:33:48I was like, order the duck.

1:33:51Kara Swisher:Just do it. Like, don't have the chicken if you don't want the chicken. Like, you have the ability to choose. And most people in this world, I have to say, are stuck in places they don't, like, whether you're in Syria, whether you're a woman in, you know, Sudan, like, you don't have a choice. Or you're poor, or you're in deep poverty without education. Even in this country, like, people don't have choices that other people have. And to be, that's why it drives me crazy with the Democrats. Like, what do we do? I'm like, what are you fucking talking about? Lots of things. Let's start with the thing instead of just wallowing in, you know, oh no, autocracy.

1:34:28Kara Swisher:Really? Does that have to be the choice? No, it doesn't. Don't press anything. We've got more What Now? after this. Feeling short on smiles? Does your frown need to be turned upside down? We've got the perfect dose of comedy, 30 minutes of Scrubs. Zach Braff, Donald Faison, Sarah Chalk, and the rest of the gang at Sacred Heart are back for a brand new season. We play medical doctors who are besties. Just like in real life. And we'll definitely be up in each other's cases. Scrubs premieres Wednesday on ABC. And stream the next day on Hulu. Side effects may include laughing, cheering, and lots of high fives.

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1:35:42You know what you're saying reminds me of a conversation we had with one of our friends in an episode here who said, when you asked him, why are you always so happy? Joe, then he says, I'm hashtag winning because you know where I come from? He says, in Uganda, all of this is not here. So I get to enjoy all of this. And I have no time to bitch and moan and complain when other people are feeling a little bit inconvenienced. And I think of you and how you speak of your father.

1:36:09Kara Swisher:Edie fucking Amin, like, come on. Right? Right? Come on. And how you speak of your father. Is he alive? And I'm like, you. He's dead. He's long gone now, yeah. He's dead? I think he's gone. Gone, gone, gone. Long, long, long. You never know with these dictators. I think either the gout got in or. They do lost forever. I think the story that you mentioned about your dad, I stopped myself from being choked up a little bit because I lost my dad two years ago. You're going to weep. Is it? This documentary coming in March, yeah. I lost my dad two years ago and there were so many occasions that I could have gone and spent time with him because I've told Trevor the story before.

1:36:41He was an alcoholic, so he was really struggling.

1:36:44Kara Swisher:It was hard for you too. So I never knew which guy I'm going to get when I go meet him. But when he passed away, I felt a certain loss, and I thought maybe if I don't go to the funeral, I will never feel like he's really, really gone. And as time went on, I really, really feel like he's gone. And it influenced what I think of alcohol. I'm not really a big fan of alcohol. and I try to be as present as possible. And I looked at your family pictures today and it spurred on that thing that I told you, that I think this is one thing that I would like to try because I'd never seen a working version of it.

1:37:20I've attempted it, it didn't work. But I think with hindsight, you get to have a bit of experience in it without actually living it. So I understand completely when you say you don't have time to do something that you don't like. Nobody has time.

1:37:35Kara Swisher:And I think that's a really, by the way, this thing I'm working on is about longevity and the health span versus lifespan and how to have a better, longer, healthier life. Because we spent 90 % of our medical money in the last 10 years and it's all horrible. Even in the best of circumstances, it's horrible. And so why are we spending 90 % here and not over here? Like why are we living in a six, six, I'm not a Maha person, trust me. I think they're crazy. but why are we spending all this time in a in the sick place and spending all our money and resources when we there's all these incredible breakthroughs that we could end obesity and like cancer and this stuff and we spend all our time in the worst possible situation at the end of our lives which i think is terrible like barring accidents barring things that you can't avoid right earthquakes whatever it happens to be and so it's really i think about that all the time.

1:38:33Kara Swisher:And whenever I saw, I was at this event this morning and these young people came, because I thought I was pretty good on stage. And all these young people came up to me and said, that was so incredible. And they said, can you give us a piece of advice? I go, you'll be dead in a hundred years. Goodbye. They were like, and I'm like, think about it and then make your choice. Make your choice. You'll be actually dead in a hundred years. What is the film going to be? I'm not interested. Oh, you'll have to wait and see. I'm not supposed to talk about it. It's embargo. I hate embargo. It's for CNN. Fine, whatever.

1:39:03Kara Swisher:But it's actually going to be a podcast and an event and a book. So I really think people have to think about our time here. I don't know. I do. I think about it all the time. It's not an obsessed thing. There's a great app called We Croak. It's such a good app. We Croak? Yeah. We Croak eventually. We Croak. It's called We Croak. It's a little frog too, which is a little thing. And let me read this to you. It's really interesting. So it's my favorite app that I have. It's right on the front. And it's about We Croak. Five quotes a day. In Bhutan, they say contemplating death five times a day brings happiness, right?

1:39:35Kara Swisher:And then they have a quote, the five quotes. And this one is from Jimi Hendrix. I'm the one that has to die when it's time for me to die. So let me live my life the way I want to, Jimi Hendrix. I just read that. I'm like, good point, Jimi Hendrix. And so I read them and then I'm like, okay. And then it makes you do things. When I was in Bhutan and we were doing that. Oh, you're in Bhutan. I didn't at the time. First, I was just like, this is like really not a vibe. And then you get into it and you're like, oh, yeah, it's the embracing of the impermanence. That's right. And what it does, funny enough, is I remember going on a guided tour in Paris with a fantastic tour guide.

1:40:15I always shout him out. Jean-Manuel, if you're ever in Paris, look him up. And he gave this tour. And one of the main things that I learned from that tour was there are two different kinds of people who get to shape the future. There are people who shape the future knowing that they will not be a part of it, but they know what they wish they would have gotten to be a part of. And then there are people who shape the future as if they will always be there.

1:40:41Kara Swisher:That's right. And the latter is oftentimes the worst person to shape the future. Because they don't know that they'll have to let it go. And when I think about some of these tech guys that you're talking about. Well, that was the impetus for this series. Oh, really? Because I was at endless dinner parties where they talked about living forever. Yeah, they love it. Putting their brain in another thing. And I was like, for what? Yeah, they love it. Cryogeny. But I honestly believe. There's more stuff going on, but that was the original. Cryogenics was, of course, the idea that you can preserve. Right.

1:41:08Kara Swisher:And by the way, we're moving into areas that some of this, you stopped Xi and Putin talking about doing organ transplant. Yeah, living forever. So their impetus is so narcissistic, and it's not about making better lives for people on this planet and extending life. One guy I interviewed for this thing, he wrote a fictional book called Elixir, and I'm blanking on his name, but he was terrific. So what if you were, the premise of this book is pretty simple. There's a pill you can take that for every year of your life, every five years of your life, it only ages you one year. So you can be 100 and look 20, right?

1:41:44Kara Swisher:Would you take it? One. And then he starts to contemplate the impact on society. Well, young people would be up in arms because all the old people would stay young longer and never get out of the fucking way, right? That's one, which they don't do now, as aged as they are in Congress. And then two, what if the person who made it would become the real first trillionaire of the thing? Who would control that? Should it be an individual who's selling it to you? And what if it was expensive enough that only wealthy people could take it? It was such a great idea, this elixir. And the idea of elixir has been with us forever.

1:42:23Kara Swisher:There's a magic, a fountain of youth, elixir. there's always been that theme. And so would you take it? What if you took it and your kids didn't want to? They'd get older than you. I mean, it's so mind-fucking, right? It's so interesting to think about. And a lot of these tech people, whether it's Larry Ellison, who's now become the world's richest man today, he's just surpassed Elon. Also Elon, Sam Altman, they're all investing in longevity stuff. And in some cases, it's an interesting thing. Sam Altman's stuff is about health span extension so you don't waste your time i kind of i'm down with that others are like how can i live longer than other what can i do to live to stop telomeres and sentient cells and all this stuff other people like jennifer are funding people like jennifer dowd know with crispr which will remove for example sickle cell anemia they may be able they have able to solve it now it's just expensive to do so because it's a single gene that you remove right you just edit that gene out Most diseases are multi-gene, and so it's much harder.

1:43:26Kara Swisher:But it costs$2 million every time they do this. Wow. Too expensive. But they can eradicate it now, which is largely eradicated for the most part. And so the question is, who gets to have it and when? And is there a way to do it that's democratic and not as usual for the world's richest people? They're all approaching it as if I should not die because I am this unique individual. are. What if you approached it like you are going to make the world better for all these people, like everybody, that people don't have to die of obesity. They don't have to die of heart disease. They don't have to have many, many, many cancers.

1:44:02Kara Swisher:It just goes away. It's a really interesting idea. And so I want to get rid of all the charlatans, of which there are so many, and narcissistic charlatans. And then let's look at what really is working, which is, it's an amazing field, you know, and remove it. And so again, the same thing, it's a love story in the benefits of technology. And it's also a nightmare if it goes another direction. Would you take that pill? No, I wouldn't. You wouldn't? No. I've thought about this a lot and I wouldn't. No, you wouldn't. So the reason I wouldn't take it is because I think one of the greatest lessons I've learned in life is that the value of things is often most appreciated in their scarcity.

1:44:46So I've seen this through my friends who have children. I've watched them appreciate time differently. You know me. I've never said the phrase time flies. I've never felt like time flies ever, ever, ever. But every single friend of mine who is a parent will go, I mean, you look up and you're like, where did the time go? And I see them yearn for the time, but they never cared for it in the same way before. And I think we take that for granted we we don't understand and that's where some people have hacked us like food companies and stuff but like there is something magical about the last chip in a bag there really is yeah but you know when there's infinite chips it doesn't care yeah it doesn't it doesn't have the same anything there's there's something to a moment of highlander exactly or all the vampire

1:45:32Kara Swisher:movies exactly which i also love a vampire movie there's just something that you lose and I think there's a stage in life that you don't get to experience that's beautiful. Like you start slow, you speed up and then you get slow again. And I think there's something beautiful in that loop. What if you could take your brain and put it in another robot or a cyborg or something like that? That's going to happen. So here's what I will say to that. I find it particularly interesting that a lot of these people who are doing this will say they have the greatest imaginations but then they don't imagine the possibility that there's something beyond what we're in now right and not necessarily an afterlife but just like what if you just locked yourself in this forever and what you don't get to get out you don't even out or in what if there's an in what if there's another i don't know what is there or isn't there that's a really good point but why would you limit yourself from possibly experiencing then you're like oh but what if you just did yeah well you won't know because they don't believe there is they don't believe there is something But I'm saying, why would you?

1:46:35That to me is when ideas and imagination start to die. You know, one of my favorite things someone ever said, and I hope he sticks to this, was Jensen Huang, NVIDIA CEO. I was talking to him about jobs and AI and, you know, all these things that are going to happen. And I said to him, what do you think about all the companies who are firing people because they've got AI? Yeah, there's a lot. And he said to me, I think every single one of those companies should die. And I was like, whoa, wait, what? and he said, if you are using AI to get rid of employees, you're a company that's run out of ideas.

1:47:10Ideas, that's right. And he said, because AI should enable you to do more of what you are trying to do because now you can expand it infinitely.

1:47:17Kara Swisher:Get rid of all the mundane tasks. And NVIDIA has shown that. They were like, we make chips. And they were like, maybe we could make software. And also maybe we could make robots and maybe we could make warehouses and maybe we could make cars and maybe we could make the, and maybe we could, And you go like, oh, he's living that ethos. Do you know what I mean? There's no mass layoffs. There's no - Well, today, let me just - No, but that's what I'm saying to you. I hope he sticks to this. Yeah. And whether he does or doesn't, I do believe the message is correct. Yeah, it's true. It's like, why is what you're using - We were just talking this on Pivot this week.

1:47:47Kara Swisher:It's like, why is what you're using AI for is to limit? Exactly. And by the way, there are mundane tasks people shouldn't do. Like, when's the last time you look at a map? When's the last time you churn butter? When's the last time you, you know, you could go through all kinds of technologies and time saving is okay for a lot of those. And a lot of, like, a lot of jobs are so rote and machines do do them better. And so what the challenge of our society is, and the next few governments will be, is what do you do when things, like, we had a drastic change. Farmers were the original entrepreneurs, you get it, deciding what crops to pick, whatever to do with the weather.

1:48:25Kara Swisher:so much like such an entrepreneur, which plow to use? Did you do the innovative new plow? I always go look at old plows. I'm fascinated. And as they made the progression and how they ease time for people and backbreaking work. And one of the things that's interesting is what part of that do you, when we went from farming to not farming, it was the right decision, right? Because that was artisanal and done in a small way so what is that right now and then what can we do to help people transition to the better job right or what is the better job like i think a lot about self-driving i love evie i love like waymo i've been in it they're really fun i was in the original original one the one when they first you weren't like the the this was 10 years 10 12 years ago when google had it in the parking lot i ran over there i'm like put me in this fucking thing and Let me see who I can run over because I wanted to see how good you guys are.

1:49:22Kara Swisher:I made, I made. No, you can't get in the car. We do have shrimp. The guy who started it now runs a company called Aurora, which is a self-driving, which is an autonomous trucking company. He's great. He's a great, great entrepreneur. But I made him stand in front of it. I'm like, let's see if you're up to what you just invented. And he did it. He stood in front of it and his car stopped. Oh, well. But I kept going, go, go, go.

1:49:48Kara Swisher:So anyway, so I love them and I know people will be put up jobs. I do, I do. But I'm thinking, for example, trucking is such a dangerous profession for people. It's not a good profession. It's not good for your family. It's not everything. I know there's a romantists around trucking, but it shouldn't be done by people. It really shouldn't. Coal mining shouldn't be done by people, like things like that. And so, okay, you have the autonomous trucks and a lot of our nations is pretty flat. And so they're not going to get in accidents. They get in fewer. The problem is people, not the trucks. Yeah, the people are the anomaly.

1:50:20The anomaly, right, exactly.

1:50:21Kara Swisher:And the trucks, once one truck makes a mistake, all the trucks learn. When one person makes a mistake, nobody learns, right? That's how it goes. Unless we have to figure something out to get people the matrix and the chip in their head. So what was interesting to me is I was like, okay, let's talk about the jobs thing. He goes, here's the thing I'm thinking, because he happens to be a very thoughtful entrepreneur, this guy. He's like, right now, long haul trucking is really dangerous. It's bad for people physically. It's dangerous. What if all these autonomous trucks went to the edges of cities and that's the only place they don't go into cities anymore?

1:50:55Kara Swisher:And by the way, it solves a problem. And then you get smaller trucks driven by people that bring it into the cities. Oh, nice. Of course, the idea of putting them under cities is actually a great idea. but they so you or all the people that are running the fleet who's who's monitoring the fleet and where it goes but you create a situation where the truckers then live near where they work rather than dry and i was like thank you you just thought of really i don't know if that's going to work but you could you could sit there and start to think okay if the people of google aren't coding anymore you know or if people vibe code you know what vibe coding is right if people are coding Eugene is do you know what vibe coding is no do you know I'm assuming you don't that's what I'm saying I just figured out today I can rotate my okay so vibe coding is um the original coding was you had to know the language that a computer speaks right and there were multiple different languages you know java c++ yeah coding languages and then vibe coding now is you're using an AI to basically code on your behalf and you're saying what you want the code to be I want an app to find me a wife and this is my criteria and not just great it's the prompt prompt is the big word yes okay everything is a what is the prompt and everything will be created by the it's it's a question yes it's it is answers are things progress because of questions in this world and so you're like i want an app that will make me find a wife and here are my criteria and here's where i want you to search and it will make you the app it will just happen so it's vibes right It's like on Star Trek when you said, I would like a turkey sandwich, and then it just appeared, that kind of stuff.

1:52:31But you see, when you go back to the world of vibe coding and what we look for as a future, I think what makes this business person thoughtful for me is, I don't know them, but I think they understand the nature of work. And I think this is what most people in business have forgotten. And the significance of it as well. They forget that a company is a fake thing. They forget that Wall Street is a fake thing. All of these things are imagined is what I mean. You know, to use the correct word, it's more imagined. It's more imagined, okay? The purpose of it is to give people something to do, to move value around however we assign it, whether it's time or currency or a product, whatever it is.

1:53:15But that's what generally keeps societies moving and happy and flowing. but once you stop them once you create a dam that's when things die you know what i mean that's when the sand builds up that's when that's exactly it and i think they don't realize this it's funny you talk about the truck thing i remember talking to somebody who was also in um autonomous trucking and i said what if there's a bridge you think trucks should be autonomous there are many people who drive trucks for a living who are going to lose their jobs right so we don't have enough truck drivers but go ahead yeah no no but i was like there are many people who will but i said what if you found a bridge in between where the person could drive the truck from home

1:53:57Kara Swisher:like you have an autonomous truck and they're there but it's guided by a truck driver at home it's very different driving a truck and then i saw the other day my my youngest brother sent me a video of this there's some people now who work in like quarries and stuff mine yes yeah but it's like they're at home and they're using like the excavation human element is important in decision making, right? And it's the same thing with drones. It's the same thing with, like at some point there will be drones that will operate on their own, like autonomously. Yeah, of course. And make autonomous decisions.

1:54:25Kara Swisher:Same thing with sentencing, justice. I mean, that's what's interesting. Like every single industry will be affected. The thing about AI is everything. Because what it does is you had Google where you went and put a thing in the box and then it brought you the answer, but it didn't really bring you the answer. It brought you lots of answers to find. and so it's like here's a lot here's a pile of library books good luck that's what google is like you know like oh god there's 10 books here where is the answer in these 10 books well it could be here is sort of gave you a suggestion maybe look at this one first feeling lucky yeah i'm feeling that was my favorite thing on a google page it was i'm feeling lucky often had the right answer yeah but i was just like what a crazy button to i'm feeling lucky Yeah, they were a funny gang back then, let me tell you.

1:55:11Kara Swisher:Wasn't that dirty Harry? No, they were a weird group of people then, I have to say, and they remain the same to this very day. But one of the things that's interesting about that idea with AI is it doesn't, it actually, and I know hallucinations, blah, blah, blah, it will get it right. Like the original internet, if you recall, was quite ugly and stupid and didn't work. AI will get it right at some point because it will learn and figure out. It could provide you with things. It could really give you great answers and cut the time it requires you to get it and get rid of things that were lots of steps along the way.

1:55:50Kara Swisher:Like making butter or whatever. There's a better way to do it. And so I think we have to approach it like it's a better way to do it. And now what can people do? What's the human element in deciding these? And I think what I get really worried about is people who really not resisted. I was with a bunch of journalists who are the most risk-averse people on the planet. I was with people and I was talking about AI coming up with headlines, right? Just for writing headlines. Yeah. They're very good at it. They can spit out 100 headlines in five seconds. And it takes some creaky old guy to come up with two terrible ideas in three hours, right?

1:56:29Kara Swisher:Well, we got to keep him in the job. I'm like, but he's bad at it. Like, why is he doing that job? While taking small breaks. Yeah, right. Right. And they were like, we can't have people do that. I said, but it's headlines. Like, why? Why do people have to do that? Well, because people have decided. I said, well, then spit out a hundred headlines and then a person picks the one. But let the person have the final decision maker. The person doesn't have to be out of the loop. That's right. Exactly. But the person also doesn't have to be doing the grunt labor. Right. Like, why not? And by the way, AI comes up with, I would say, 79 bad ideas, but 21 are pretty fucking good like they are like i have to say you're like not bad yeah and and they were like well that's this group people are like that's terrible i'm like why are you the hill you're dying on is headlines when i'm telling you you need to focus on making products that people want and figure out what the creativity part is headlines are not the it's the grunt work it's the input work it's the stuff that computers should do right why are people inputting.

1:57:30Kara Swisher:Why? I don't even understand it. And it's really interesting. The resistance is in media, as you know. I mean, what's happening now at your old play? Well, that's another story. I'd like to get into that. I'm happy to, but what in the actual fuck? Oh, God. Anyway. For example, I was just with the person who's running MS now, which I don't particularly like the name, but whatever. I don't really care what they call it. They can call it phyllis i don't really care but as long as it's a great name for a network i know i know right it doesn't matter if it's good it's good you see what happened on phyllis phyllis yeah i like that actually are you the guy from phyllis yeah excuse me ma 'am did i see you did i see you on phyllis the other day i actually like that or barbara barbara's another nice one phyllis is really phyllis that's like a cool it is a cool this is phyllis phyllis dillard syphilis syphilis oh Oh, damn.

1:58:23Kara Swisher:Wow, you went there. Is that the full - Wow, Eugene. Huh? Syphilis? As you were. No, please, Kara. So one of the things I was talking, it's called versant, which I'm like, also causes rash and, you know, causes vaginal rash. Also solves your vaginal rash problem. And this executive was like, that's not funny. I go, no, that's funny. That's funny. Come on. The name versant. You walked right into it by calling this stupid thing versant. um so uh so anyways that ai came up with that name and um so we the half the people there it's really interesting are like oh no like oh no and i was like no this is a golden fucking opportunity to be creative and make things people want and if you don't you get to leave like if you can't and to me the people i really like are the ones that are like okay this is we're now freed of all this other shit.

1:59:17Kara Swisher:Now we can make cool stuff. Same thing, you know, it's so many of these places. They now have the opportunity. I have a rule when I make companies. I've made, everything I've made has been pretty successful, very successful actually. And someone was like, what's your secret sauce for making things? And I go, I make things people want and I sell them. And they're like, what? And I said, and I asked myself this one question when I'm making something and it's whether I know it's right or not. Did anyone ever ask for this? Like a lot of people make, a lot of corporations make, did anyone ever ask?

1:59:51Kara Swisher:Like Washington Post did, let's let sources make comments in the stories that our reporters write. And they think it's brilliant, this one person. But did anyone ever ask for that? Did anyone ever fucking, I said, did anyone ever fucking ask for this? They're like, no, but it's cool. I'm like, but it's not. I'm like, who wants that? Like who? Except the sources who get to like clap back at the reporters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they wanted it, but does that make you more money? Does it even make the product better? Right. Does it make the product better? Does it serve your reader more? Does it inform them?

2:00:19Does it create? Yeah.

2:00:20Kara Swisher:Right. Right. Exactly. And so often they try to make, they don't think about what people want. And that's what I think about that all the time. So I think they'll do great if they make things people want and they keep the costs in line. It doesn't seem very good. This has been amazing. Yeah. I love this. Do you miss TV? I'm curious. Do I miss TV? Yeah. I don't think I ever liked TV. Oh, really? Interesting. No, like the thing. You like live. No, no, but what I mean is this, is like, I hope I'm not getting too didactic with this answer, but it's like. Please do. So even like, let's say podcast.

2:00:52I always laugh at that. I go, what does that mean? If there's a camera, then is it a podcast? It's a broadcast. People love giving things names. It's a TV movie. It's a movie. No, it's a TV movie. It's a movie. You're just watching it on TV.

2:01:09Kara Swisher:Yeah. All of these things. So for me, genuinely, the only thing that I miss is engaging with the human beings that I engage with. So I loved working on problems and ideas with a team. I love the jokes that we would tell each other in the writer's room. I love the meetings that we would have. I love meeting with the audience and having them ask questions. That's all that I miss genuinely. And my friends, I think, can account for this. if you told me that none of that actually ended up on tv and i was just like being scammed i would go like man i still had a great time yeah and i i that's how i think of it for my life is i go i wish to be partaking in the activity of creativity with the people that i love right and then i'll i'll i'll enjoy that and i'll come out on the other side with with an experience but the actual tv side of it yeah doesn't really matter either that's the thing that that's something a lot of people maybe don't get i used to say like one of the things they were they were always like oh if this goes and that's what's like no if you make great stuff it'll sell every single fucking time just it just and and i think they get stuck into the system more than anything yeah rather than what they're actually making and so process always takes over and one of the things that i've just recently started doing a series of podcasts a media that works i'm so sick of the doom scrolling and oh meeting i all i talk to is people who are and some of them work like the woman who's running wired she's kicking ass because she's making great stuff she decided to double down on doge she has really interesting stories she's part of a corporation i'm not just doing entrepreneurs she's she descriptions are up like a hundred percent why because she's making things people want so i interviewed her oliver darcy who does media writing he left san and to do it.

2:02:53Kara Swisher:I interviewed him. There's a guy at the post that I helped figure out how to leave who does videos on TikTok. Like all kinds of people are approaching it from different ways. And so I, and using technology to do so. And I think it's really important to keep at heart. All that's important is what you're making. Like what's the thing you're saying or doing or writing or what's the story you're telling. That doesn't change. And technology doesn't make it any better like doesn't it just doesn't people do a hundred percent no question i love this yeah thank you so much all right thank you i hope we see you again yes come and join us again his wedding obviously ah when you fix him up walking down the aisle here comes eugene closer well you need this morning you need a sopranos fan obviously that's that's that should be a top or even better you need somebody who's never watched The Sopranos because that'll be the greatest joy.

2:03:47Kara Swisher:Yeah. There's nothing better than introducing somebody. No, introducing someone. What if they don't like it? No, they can't not like it. What if they don't? But that's how you'll know that they love you. No, that's how I mean it, honestly, is that's where I feel like you'll explore something. They'll be like through your eyes. Why do you love it so much? Yeah. Well, they'll hate it and you'll still be a great couple. Actually, you can get along. Like my wife is like, I'd love to live in Brooklyn. I said, I'd rather poke my eye with a dry skin. Huh? the whole entire eye the entire eye like totally if I have to go in a co-op I'll kill myself I'm like give me give me the four dollar apple and leave me the I don't want to talk I don't want to work for it I would like but I'm not a burning man gal so do you go to burning man?

2:04:31no I've never been I want to go though

2:04:32Kara Swisher:why? because I want to experience everything in life it doesn't matter I've been in dirty before yeah I can't you know why? no I have been in dirty before tell us more I've even told you this I want to experience You see what's happening now You seem very clean to me How am I copting you? He's like I told you about my dirty Dirty I'm so glad you can learn more about each other This is me all the time What is the dirtiest thing about Burning Man? Dirt? Like the actual dirt? Actual dirt Kara, have you been to Hamanskral? Have you been to Hamanskral? No, what is that? Exactly, Kara Is this your country again?

2:05:05Kara Swisher:Is this your country? No, like What I mean is like You win Yeah, thank you, Eugene You win The thing that people, I loved going to the homelands. When someone goes Burning Man, I'm like, this is not. Oh, that's true. It's kind of a wimp thing. Here's why I can't go to Burning Man. Because a lot of tech guys go there, and they're going to slip me like ayahuasca, and then I'm going to end up in some trailer in Reno married to a man. Something will happen. I like that the end of the bad story was married to a man. I will end up, there will be pictures. There will be pictures. I will not. I do not.

2:05:40Kara Swisher:When I go to these companies now, I'm like this. I'm like, don't touch them. Just cover everything. Cover everything. No, man. You know, they do that with presidents. When I was interviewing Obama, they put a thing on the. Yeah, no, they don't even. And I went to touch it and the Secret Service lost their fucking mind. They wouldn't even. When you interview presidents and they don't even let you have the water. No way. Yeah, no, no. They bring everything with them. Cover the water. Yeah. Of course, what's the first thing I did? It was like. Can I tell you one of the funniest moments I ever had like that It was Gail King.

2:06:11This is like early, early, early when I was just in the U.S. hosting the Daily Show. Gail King invited me to the Kennedy Center Honors.

2:06:21Kara Swisher:Yeah, they're fun. I covered them as a young reporter. Yeah, but in Obama's box. What? You see? Now you're with me. Gail. She's always up to things. That Gail. I remember going, wait. She was like, Trevor, come with me. and you know how Gail she's like Trevor you're gonna love it she's like that do you know Gail from TV then you know Gail she's exactly right Gail is the most person Gail person she's the most Gail person Gail is like Gail Gail is like Gail so Gail she was like Trevor you gotta come I was like okay we get there we don't go to the main section we go into President Barack Obama's box walk in there he is Secret Service Trevor are you coming to watch the show we're gonna have a good time good time it's gonna be good you ever been here before so we're in there We go, we sit down, and then the show starts.

2:07:10And I'm sitting right behind him. And the Secret Service is like way back there. And to your point of like the glass, I'm like staring at his head. And I was looking at like the hairs on the back of his head. And I was just like, when was the last time somebody like hit his head? That's how William Booth became who he was. No, let me explain. John Wilkes Booth. No, John Wilkes Booth. John Wilkes Booth. No, because, no. But I, let me explain, let me explain.

2:07:39Kara Swisher:So you thought about hitting his head? No, I did not. I did not think about hitting his head. Okay. This is not the first time you almost got killed by the Secret Service. You're going to get the Secret Service coming? No. I just thought to myself, because I always, I want this for people. Why are you incriminating? I've got a visa. I have to. Eugene, wait. I can't wait to see where this is ending. But go ahead. Land the plane. I love for people to have human experiences. And I've asked President Obama this in person. I've gone, do you miss being called by your name? Yeah. Do you miss somebody not knowing you?

2:08:03He does share that he does miss many of those things. He has dreams of being on a park bench. Like, literally, that's his dream.

2:08:09Kara Swisher:Not anymore, never again. Yeah, but that's what I mean. He dreams of that. He's like, oh, man, you know? And when I was there, I was like... Will's booth. I imagine... Trevor Noah will's booth. No, I imagine like, wow. The second. When was the last time in his life that somebody just went, pap, on Barack Obama's head? Michelle probably does it. Oh, maybe. But I just thought that would be so cool for him to be like, what? like in that but then I was like how close is the secret service would they think I'm trying to kill him yes they would that's the problem they would so I was unable to afford him the experience you can't touch him I'm glad you didn't touch him I did not tell you a very brief Obama story go go so we did a interview and he was talking to digital people that you know they decided let's get some digital people you know that you know some stupid marketing person or PR person so I get one of the things and the other one was remember the one with the green lips on MTV and I'm blanking on her name.

2:09:02Kara Swisher:She had green lips and she was an MTV DJ. Oh, she was a VJ. VJ, right. So she gets an interview. I get an interview. But then they cut my interview by 10 minutes and give it to her. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? I'm sorry. I don't mean to say, don't you know who I am? But you just cut my interview by 10 minutes. So that's hard when you have it planned out in your head, right? Because you planned the whole thing. I planned the whole thing. And I'm like, now I got to do something. So we sit down and the glass is there. And I'm thinking of touching the glass. But then that'll take off another five minutes off.

2:09:30Kara Swisher:because it'll be five minutes of moving the glass around. So he sits down. He's right knee-to-knee with me. And I go, listen, they just cut 10 minutes off my interview. And here's the problem I have with you is you talk too much. And you never have a pair. You talk in paragraphs. You never stop talking. I understand you've been president for six years. Everyone listens to you. But I'm going to interrupt you. And I'm sure you're not used to that because no one interrupts you. But I'm about to interrupt you a lot because they cut my fucking 10 minutes. so just be aware you're maybe not used to it but try to remember when people used to interrupt you okay great and he looks at me he goes I heard you were obnoxious and I go I am and we started the interview the whole interview he was so pithy I totally like mind fucked him to do it so later I totally mind he completely fell for it and so and I was always I got in an argument with him too because one you have to figure out what in an interview is the thing and he does not like getting mad and I kept trying to get him mad because he's resisting anger, right?

2:10:32Kara Swisher:Because he doesn't want to be angry black guy, I guess. I don't know. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Whatever. I kept trying to get him mad. And so we do the interview. It was very testy, actually. It was a very testy interview because everyone sort of is not testy to him. And I was like, I'm going for testy. So months and months later when he was leaving office, my ex-wife worked for him as the CTO. And when he ends his administration, it's such a lovely thing. You go into the Oval Office and meet him and you get a handshake and a picture everything from susan rice on down gets this every single it's lovely it's a lovely tradition so my ex-wife goes hey come with us it'd be really nice to have the whole family there the sons would love it it would be really great so we go i go i don't know he's he doesn't like me very much he does for good reason yes no but i poked and prodded him and so we walk into the oval office and he goes how did you get in here I was like, so then it gets worse.

2:11:26Kara Swisher:So I was like, I didn't want to be here either. Trust me. I don't really want to spend time with you either. And so he goes, fine, we'll take the picture. And he knows everything about everybody. He must be given cards or little factoids. You know how they know. So he goes to my oldest son and he goes, Louis, I hear you're such a good cook. And if you open a restaurant someday, can you come? And Louis goes, yeah, yeah, sure. Absolutely, Mr. President. I'll cook you a great meal. And my other son, who's a techie, and he goes, Alex, do you, you know, but you want to do, when you're a company, would you let me invest in your company?

2:11:59Kara Swisher:And my son goes, maybe. That's your boy. And he goes, this is your son. I was like, yes, he is. Maybe. We'll see if we'll let you on the cap table. We're not sure if you're worthy. And I just love, we had a recent back and forth because I had said I thought he should step a little more and stop hanging out with celebrities and go say something. because Trump was problematic. And I thought he hung back too much. So I got all this pushback because they're like, oh, why should he come in and do it? I'm like, because he's the most important Democrat in existence. And it's a compliment to him, which I don't tend to pay him.

2:12:37Kara Swisher:So I would say he's the one who has to stand up until they figure out who the next leader is. And I got a text from their office. They're like, we don't think he has to, you know, he doesn't have to step up. I'm like, oh no, he has to step up. I don't care what you say. No, no, I think there's a paradox there. I talked about this with like a friend. No, no, no. Here's what I think it is. I think damned if you do, damned if you don't, right? So if Obama continues to step in, there will never be somebody else who steps in. And then you sort of don't create. No, I genuinely believe this. I think like people will often say, and I've seen this happen when there was like the rallies, even when Biden was running, Kamala was running, all of these things.

2:13:17He would come out and then people be like, oh, why isn't it that guy? Yeah. And you know where you're sort of not helping. So he would end up cock blocking the next person. That's what I mean. You are cock blocking.

2:13:27Kara Swisher:I think right now we're under extenuating emergency circumstances. Yeah, but I would argue in this moment in time, and I mean, everyone will disagree or agree. I would argue in this moment in time, I don't know that he would have necessarily the best impact. I actually think, you know, like Star Trek and New Generation type thing. I think like the Zorans and the whatever. people are not going to be if Obama was to step in now I can very quickly see people turning around and going like how did you let this happen and all of a sudden it becomes like this like do you know what I mean I think he should I think I think he has so much gravitas and it's an emergency situation and he will help the transition and it's a different media world now everything's operating as if it's the same thing and it's not this it is indeed not the same it is not the same And so acting like the Democrats or peacetime, like, I like to keep...

2:14:19Kara Swisher:Yeah, I mean, come on. Stop it. Like, stop Chuck Schumer. Turn off the social media cameras right now because you suck. But like what Zoran Mandami is doing, what Newsom is doing, that's what's required, which is muscular. And I don't mean that in a gender specific way. It's like, it's muscular, it's aggressive, it's promiscuous, and it's constant from a thing. And it's a very different thing. And Obama has an incredible charisma and charm that will take it to the next thing. that needs to counter, and he is the counter at this moment. And then he brings up people. I don't know. Anyway, if you notice, he's been saying a lot more lately.

2:14:55Kara Swisher:He has now, yes. So I irritated him. A lot of us. He just rubbed him. Right. I was like, don't you think? And I was like, I'm paying you a fucking compliment for once. So don't. Oh, man. You got Barack activated. Trevor almost hit him at the back of the head. I know. There was no almost. I wasn't trying to physically hurt him. Don't ever do that. You thought about it. No. For a second. You thought about it? I thought about whether or not he had experienced. No, you know what? He didn't think about hitting. He wanted to rub his hands some of the legs. Oh, rub the back. I wondered when was the last time he had a very human experience of somebody sitting behind you and just doing that on your head.

2:15:32Kara Swisher:He should have touched his ear. Next time you see him, will you touch his ear for us? I will not. Please. I will not. Because I want my pictures and I do not want to be on enemy terms with Barack Obama. Now when I walk in the room He's going to be like You You and Cara How did you get in here How did you get in here Trevor Next time I see him I'm going to touch his ear I'm going to ask Because I'm a consent kind of girl May I touch your ear I want no part of this I'm going to say it was your idea No part of this No part of this He'll know it was not my idea No I'll say no it was He'll tell you it wasn't his idea He will know for a fact It was his idea He will know for a fact Remember when he told us I'll put the doubt in his mind Let me tell you something Let me tell you something.

2:16:13If there's one thing he will know, is that it was not my idea.

2:16:16Kara Swisher:No, it was. Remember when Trevor said he wants to hold both of his ears? That's right. I'm out. Remember that? I'm out. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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