Katie Couric: Is Objectivity Dead?

27:05Katie Couric:Trump is basically controlling these huge multi-million dollar consolidation conglomerates, whatever you want to call it, mergers. And they can't merge without the FCC and his administration giving them approval. So they're basically bowing down and saying, we're going to give you$16 million because the Kamala Harris interview was edited in a way that you didn't like, which was complete unadulterated bullshit. That case had no merit. But they gave him$16 million. Similarly, ABC with George Stephanopoulos, $15 million because he said sexual assault, I think instead of, or I think he said rape instead of sexual assault or whatever.

27:59Katie Couric:And normally, I think back in the day, Katie Couric, back in the day, we we would probably issue an on-air apology correction correction yeah um but i don't think anytime i worked at a network would they pay somebody because they were afraid of the ramifications if they didn't you would you would feel like it would be like a badge of honor in fact you know i like a badge of honor to what to be um like sued by a person in the administration in any administration i always felt like journalists who came up against like the government i always felt that that was a badge of honor we saw it in south africa the journalists who were arrested by the apartheid government it was a badge of honor you know the journalists who were in war zones who were arrested by you know rebel factions or the governments that people were trying to overthrow it was a badge of honor it always used to be this badge of honor where it's like oh we're now going to stand our ground and show you truth to power.

29:02Katie Couric:On the other hand, I think, you know, if journalists make mistakes, right? Oh, yeah, that's different. Yes, yes, yes. Or report it, then I think that's how the system works, right? And so I don't think you can say sort of carte blanche that or generalize that it's a badge of honor all the time. But, But, you know, it's totally different now, the way they're using their power to suppress stories, to change how the framework of stories or, you know, how a story is positioned. I was talking to a friend the other day about when CBS News did a 16-second reader on January 6th, and they were basically saying, Hakeem Jeffries said this, Donald Trump said that.

29:54Katie Couric:Yeah. Now, if there's no universal understanding that January 6th was an insurrection, that people were killed, police officers, and yes, one protester, but that it was an attempt to overturn an election and disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. And hang Mike Pence. And hang Mike Pence. Because they had a sign. They were like, we're coming to hang Mike Pence. If they throw the election in Donald Trump's favor, then they're just, they're not being truthful. Yeah. That is factually incorrect. I think the conflict for anyone who doesn't live in America is, America has always gone into other countries to try and defend their democracies.

30:35And if people voted for this dispensation, aren't there mechanisms in the same constitution to coil anything that they don't like from the same dispensation?

30:44Katie Couric:Yes. what i kind of understood that question so if it's a democratic state yeah that is voted in by its citizens surely there must be a mechanism within the constitution of the same state that can stop things that the people who voted don't like do you get what i mean it's a yes and no that's the weird thing right yeah i mean the first the first thing about elections certifying the election right and that's what was happening on capitol hill when this whole riot broke out So I think you're right. There are steps that will ensure a free and fair election. The question is, if those steps aren't followed by the frigging president of the United States, where does that leave you?

31:30but it's also weird you know to your question is like one of the strange things about democracy is that you are buying something you do not yet have and you've never tested and you've never really owned yeah and you're paying for it up front so in many ways i think like voting is similar to buying a house you walk in they show you around and then you're like all right i'll take it for the next however many years of my life this is for me and then only when you sleep in it for a week do you go i think this shit is haunted do you know what i mean you know yeah you're like what what just happened here but i think that happens in democracy we take that for granted as a system it's it's it's maybe the best one we know right now but i do think it's a little bit strange that we go okay eugene tell me your pitch uh trevor i promise you pizza every friday all right i'll vote for this guy And then Eugene comes in and then he's like, I don't like pizza.

32:31It's weird because I voted for you based on, like, I do think it is strange that there is no mechanism to hold politicians accountable for the thing they said they were going to do. Yes, there are. What is that? They're called elections. No, but that's, no, no, no.

32:46Katie Couric:They're called the next election. Yeah, but you see, that's too late. That's too late. Okay, now let's use this analogy somewhere else. Imagine if you went to a car dealership And you said I want to buy this SUV for my family They go yeah great A seven seater SUV for you and your family You go you sign it you take it You drive out of the lot When you get home there's two seats And you're like what just happened And then you phone the dealership And you're like you said seven seats And they're like yeah we just realized Seven seats wasn't going to work So we switched it to a two seater And you can switch it out in your next lease Yeah I still have to own this car I think what you're saying, there should be a better business bureau for the government.

33:25I think there should be a better replacement for democracy. I think there could be. No. Yes, I think so.

33:30Katie Couric:A better replacement for democracy? For the way we run it, I think there could be. Okay, what? Because people assume, well, I'll speak for my country. People assume, first of all, in our country, people had to explain to people, which they didn't know in this age of information, that we actually don't vote for the president. We vote for a party. And the party elects people, puts them in parliament. Parliamentarians in their different parties elect a president. Yeah. So we don't choose who the president is. So that's the first part. But what we've done is, I think if democracy was real, we would have to be able to choose in real time all the time.

34:03You can't choose once. See, this is why you're my guy. You can't choose once every four years. This is why you're my guy.

34:08Katie Couric:So every day an election? This is why we wear the same clothes. This is why we dress the same. Poly market it. So here's the thing If you vote for a president You vote for a party The party elects The representative The representatives Themselves in parliament Elect the president That person Who's the president now Elects people that he likes And trusts Yeah And then they go on To elect people That they like and trust Right In different cabinet positions In different ministries So basically What you've done is You've empowered An institution To create its own Sub-institution Yes And everyone puts people that they trust over and over and over.

34:49Local municipality suffers because people are always looking at the bigger picture, which is the president of the country. And no matter how many times when people are dissatisfied with service delivery, when the president says, but I don't control anything in municipal level. No one will believe them because people assume because you are on the ballot paper, we voted for you, right? And also these mechanisms of local elections and municipal elections and by elections, they're never as advertised as the big Super Bowl of elections. No, they're not. Even here, people don't vote on that level in the same way.

35:22Yeah, so I think people should be able to select the president, not from just the party, just select the individual, and then also have a say in the individuals that that individual selects. So, okay, can I pitch you my idea on this? Yeah. I actually think the biggest issue with politics is individuals. Yeah. Let me try and explain this. when somebody goes up and starts a campaign, we know nothing about them. We do not know their ability or inability to do things. For the most part. Worse, we don't know their friends. This is true. That they're going to elect. We don't know. This is true. They will elect their friends.

35:59Yeah, yeah. We elect them.

36:00Katie Couric:Or where they're getting their money to run the campaign. There we go. You see? Exactly. All of this. I wonder when I came back in the day.

36:09So I think sometimes when I'm trying to solve a problem, I try and go back to the original idea of what we were trying to solve, right? Why do we have representatives? I would argue the reason we have representatives in every system is because it was not feasible for all of us to be contributing or discussing how to do a thing. So we said, hey, we live at this table. We are the table people. Everyone at other tables also has decisions to make. So why don't we send someone from this table? So Katie, you go represent us, please, at the National Table Convention and tell us what other people from tables are thinking, but let them know that we like certain kinds of tables, please.

36:50That made sense. It made sense at a time when there was no internet. It made sense at a time when information couldn't just travel instantly. I think it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, when means of production were controlled by a limited few. Completely, completely. we now live in a world where I think we use all this great technology for in my opinion like trashy things so online betting yeah we have online we have like online sports betting instant like decisions and you can to do what to bet on a game and then go broke and then you know your family's destitute and young men are like homeless and what we have it for what voting on like a singing competition send us your votes now that's instant we've got amazing technology but we use it for like the most gimmicky thing oh put your opinion online imagine if i know this sounds crazy but imagine if people could a la carte vote digitally about things that a country's doing yes instead of having it be one day to pick one person who's

37:52Katie Couric:going to make all the decisions for years but having said that you know to really explore and analyze an issue takes tons of time. The American people, and I don't know what the situation is in South Africa, it takes a lot of time, energy, and focus to really understand deeply all these issues. Ostensibly, these people are there to really learn, evaluate, have staff people look at things. This is what we hope. Now, ideally, right? Right. The average American doesn't who's trying to earn a living, you know, be productive in the world, take care of his or her family. Right. Isn't necessarily going to have the expertise in a certain area, I think, to I mean, I think they can get involved.

38:40Katie Couric:They can call their member of Congress, et cetera. But do you believe that that would really work that every you know, if let's say there's an issue of are you saying, for example, like funding DHS? that we should have a national vote like American Idol and people should say how they feel. So I love that you brought that up because I think it captures two elements of politics that I think have broken down. One is the etymology of politics itself, right? From the Greek, for the people, politic. It's like, it is literally the thing for the people of the people. If we, the people, cannot understand the thing, it is wrong, is my opinion.

39:21Why have you made it so convoluted? It is easier to understand than you make it. And I think politicians have created a world where they've made it like, look, you guys cannot understand this. Let us do it for you. It's so complicated. Your tiny little brain cannot understand this. Just give us your tax and then we will do it for you. We'll take care of it. You small brain person. The politician just became Indian. Oh, no, no, no. This is just a lord, a lord of something. But this should be part of what every politician runs on And every citizen should insist on Administrators should never be touched So if you think of in South Africa, for example The Ministry of Home Affairs Yes, yes, you see, I'm loving this If a minister comes in, he must not touch You see, I'm loving this The general manager I'm loving this The departmental heads Because these appointments that are because of friendships The bureaucrats The bureaucrats Exactly This guy Now you're a political figure, a political appointee Yes destroying what the administrator has done for years and years and years and things have been working.

40:22And then we let that happen because we assume that they know what they're doing. But this person just six months ago was in a political party rally. Yes. And now he walks into Home Affairs and Department of Immigration and Department of Finance and Department of Health and elects people that he thinks know what he's going to be doing. And political deployments have never worked. So this is what I mean by that. I agree with you that most of us do not understand the intricacies of the things going on in a bill or the issues, except most of us. But I would argue that most of us also include many of these politicians.

40:53The reason I say this, because if you talk to, as you have, senators, congresspeople, etc. First of all, they have a whole barrage of staff who processes it for them and then gives them footnotes. And those people, if they're influenced by the right person, choose which footnotes to give or not give. And you've seen it in these hearings sometimes Where like someone will ask a senator themselves They'll be like do you know what's in the bill And then the senator will be like well I mean I I know what the bill And then they're like do you know what's in the bill And then it's like well Look I don't know every single thing Did you know that in your bill about bridges There's also a thing here about Schools and then like how pigs Should be shipped Pigs yeah yeah there's a thing about pigs It's a bridge yeah yeah This is infrastructure but there's a thing about pigs You know what it is?

41:43We assume that everyone who dispenses medicine is a pharmacist. So when we elect officials, we assume that they know what they're doing. Yes, that's what I mean. We want them to dispense democracy on our behalf. And they keep telling us, you guys are too young to know what this thing is. Let me drive it for you and I'll let you know when you're ready. There could be another way, Katie. There could be another way.

42:02Katie Couric:Okay, so guys, what are you proposing here? Ah, we thought you'd never ask. No, you know what's funny? This is how I'll even, I'll say it. Look at what you're doing in your life now If I had come to you Three decades ago and said Katie Couric I think you can run your own media organization That chooses its own stories From the comfort of your own home Yeah and just And not even have a time That you actually put something out There will be no fixed time slot There will be no time length Do you think you would have looked at me and been like Yeah this sounds feasible No I would have said you're nuts Thank you.

42:42That's what I mean. And when I look at what you've done today, it's exactly that. It's citizen journalism where you've taken all your expertise, all your experience, everything that you've gained over your lifetime. Your connections, your respect, your everything. Your knowledge. And you've created something that is very necessary. And we're seeing many organizations that are doing this. One of my favorites on YouTube is A More Perfect Union.

43:09Katie Couric:Oh, yes. Some of the journalism they're doing is like, you're like, wow, why isn't this just everywhere? Why isn't this everywhere? Yes. Or Midas Touch, you know, is doing some great work and Courier News as well. It's funny because my friend's daughter is like the head of all digital content for a more perfect union. Oh, OK. Yeah. Kudos to them. And so it's really interesting. But that idea seemed crazy. The idea that a person could make an album in their bedroom and then send it out to the entire world and the world could choose how to listen to it seemed like a crazy concept, you know? And then look at someone like Billie Eilish.

43:49I think for voting, we could do it. And I think we have all the tools now.

43:53Katie Couric:All right, well, let's talk about that. I mean, I'm just going to challenge both of you. So how would that work practically? Please leave me out of it. No, it was you with the big idea. She's like, I don't want to be challenged. So I would love to hear more specifically how this would work pragmatically. Okay, here's how I pitch it right now. This is still in beta. This would be the idea. But there's a few things we have to address. So number one is there's a deluge of information, right? And there's a breakdown in how people understand that information. I do think AI has given us a tool that we've never had before in that AI can tell you exactly – it can translate it for you for you.

44:32regardless of your aptitude regardless of your proficiency in a language regard ai can help you understand anything the way you need to understand it all right so that's the first thing i think is we've now got a tool that can take large amounts of information synthesize them for you right so that's that's the first part the second one is we already possess digital technology that requires verification and authentication. So people are trading like Bitcoin and all these things. You got to have your ID in there. You've got to have facial recognition on the banking app. Two-step verification. So there's a measure of security.

45:11Biometrics. That is often more intense than voting security right now. So it's like, okay, so there's a way to verify that this is Katie Couric who's making this decision. So that's, I would argue, handled already and can keep getting stronger. And then the last one is, the instant nature of it. Instead of having bills that are built on other bills that are built on other bills that are built that, in my opinion, mean lots of things don't go anywhere, you could just have an a la carte system where people in their cities, in their states, et cetera, are voting on bite-sized ideas, which is how we already consume information.

45:47Then you just go, hey, would you like more or less funding for the parks than this? Here's how we're breaking the spending. Here's how we're doing this. I do think there's a way we could simplify the information without diminishing any of its fidelity and get people to make decisions as opposed to saying, you can make no decision.

46:07Katie Couric:You can just pick a person and then that's it. But there's a lot of things that go into running a country, right? Yes. So are you suggesting that every issue, every decision, every spending cut or increase is voted on by the citizenry. No, but I do think there's a large part of it. I think right now we're at like zero is what I argue, right? Maybe not zero to be fair, because I guess people vote on, what do you call those in America? A referendum? Yeah, and also there's the other ones where people go - Ballot initiatives? Yes, thank you. Ballot initiatives, right? So it's not zero to be fair, but it's very few.

46:47I'm not saying it would be a hundred because I love bureaucrats. I'm going to go on record to say, as like Eugene said, my friend over here. You know why? Because bureaucrats make the world move and we've been conditioned to like hate bureaucracy and hate. No, they are the people who make sure that the bridges are going to work and make sure that the engineers numbers match up and they make sure that the roads are built and they make sure that the drug companies are actually testing and they're looking at the studies.

47:17Katie Couric:I think some bureaucrats. I mean, I think bureaucracy has gotten a bad name. And I think there are public servants who do exactly that, serve the public. But there's also bureaucracy connotes a certain kind of bloat. Bloat, right? And I think Democrats and Republicans agree that the government had gotten too big and could have been more efficient. Way more, yes. And of course, Elon Musk took a literal chainsaw to it where it needed an exacto knife, right? And so I think that I agree with you. His one was weird though. But I think we're in this binary world. You can't say bureaucracy is good, bureaucracy is bad.

48:06Katie Couric:No, I agree. That's why I'm agreeing with you. That's why I'm agreeing. You know what's funny about the Elon Musk thing? He took a chainsaw to it. I've never seen somebody take a chainsaw and then somehow cut everything down but also miss all the trees. Because he didn't save anything. He saved like no money but everything was destroyed at the same time. You're like, what were you doing with this chainsaw, Elon Musk? No, but to your point, that's what I'm agreeing with. I'm saying I think there can be a balance. He missed everything. He didn't miss everything. I think there can be a balance where we just find a world where we are a little more involved and politicians are held a little bit more accountable along the way, as opposed to making it like, I guess I'll wait four years to, you know?

48:52Katie Couric:I think that people, I think that election day should be a national holiday. I'm loving this, Katie. And I think people should be fined if they don't vote. Wait, let me think on the second one first. Let me think on it. National holiday. I'm in, I'm in. Fine. because I'm in Katie I'm in wait now I wish I knew at the top of my head does Australia some country somebody find you have to in Australia you have to vote it's mandatory right and what happens if you don't I do think you get penalized in some way that's why people vote for like Darth Vader and stuff there so you get what you get penalized I think you get fined penalized comes from the word penalty yes so you get okay yes That's exactly what it is But don't you think I just feel like Why don't you say penalized?

49:44Because you could have said penalized Because I think it's penal I don't even think It comes from penalty I think it might come from Penal something else Yeah but penal colonies Were penalty colonies Penitentiary colonies Peloton? Peloton I don't know We're going to continue This conversation Right after this short break Picture this You're about to take off for a long flight And suddenly you realize the Wi-Fi is out Ladies and gentlemen, the Wi-Fi is not working You've already seen most of the in-flight movies And the book you brought feels more like homework than pleasure This, my friends, is when you'll love having YouTube Premium Downloading videos before a flight is a must You can be sitting 30 ,000 feet in the air Halfway through a fascinating interview A travel documentary or a cooking series you've somehow become emotionally invested in.

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51:34Cancel anytime. Hey guys, it's David. And I'm Jason. This is the Views Podcast. Yeah, and this is our podcast, and we talk about... What do we talk about on here? We talk about scientific things. Yes. We talk about friendship. We talk about sex. We talk about rock and roll. We talk about living in LA, being an influencer, not being an influencer. Jason trying to be an actor. Yeah. Trying to figure out how to live life. And everything we say is mostly wrong. Pretty much. Yeah, so don't take anything. don't take anything seriously and just enjoy the ride. Sorry there's noise in the background. Our

52:07Katie Couric:friend is f***ing filming a video. Listen to views wherever you get your podcasts. If you live with diabetes or deal with low blood sugars, you know the drill. Your blood sugar drops and you need to bring it up fast. That's where glow gummies come in. Delicious glucose gummies made with fast-acting dextrose to raise blood sugar quickly. They're soft, vegan, gluten-free, dye-free, and don't melt or stick to your teeth. Finally, going low doesn't have to mean reaching for another chalky glucose tablet. Head to GlowGummies.com. That's G-L-O-W-Gummies.com and use code PODCAST20 for 20 % off.

52:47So here's my thing about voting. First of all, I think it's politicians that started... But wait, can we agree we're in? By the way, you've got our votes. National holiday. Yes. We're completely in. And penalty? Well, I'm in. I'm in on this. If you don't go vote. Yeah, because it's a holiday. If you don't exercise your democratic responsibility, not right. Because I think at some point it becomes a responsibility instead of a right. Okay. So here's my thing. I think politicians are the reasons why, or the reason why normal citizens hate bureaucrats because they've used words like red tape and bloated.

53:20They've used those words to excuse them not being efficient. So they've said, I would love to do this, but there's so much red tape. But if I put someone that I know who can cut through the red tape, then for four years, someone is putting someone that cuts through the red tape. And as soon as they get there, they don't cut through the red tape because maybe there's no red tape. That's how things work. If you've ordered a thousand buses from Malaysia, it takes one year to make the buses, ship them over here for six months. I mean, Trump came in saying it. Gonna drain the swamp. I'm gonna drain it.

53:52You gotta drain the swamp. Who doesn't want the buses to come? We gotta drain it. And then you go there and you're like, what did you drain? I mean, turns out it's not a swamp. It's a bathtub. You can't drain the bathtub because we got a bath. We got a bath. That's what it is. You know what? You need to be penalized for doing that accent so well. So the second part is, I think there should be categories of who can vote and how many times can they vote. What? So I'll give you an example. What, are you living in Chicago?

54:26Katie Couric:Because here's my thing There's banks Who have more security Than governments When it comes to voting Okay And there's also Buildings that are run More efficiently than governments Okay So we can combine those two We go People in some buildings Who have kids Can vote If the place needs to be Kid friendly or not But if you don't have kids Or you don't have a dog I mean sit this one out Oh this is an interesting idea So we must go You're going like granular With the voting Yeah so if we go Katie how many kids do you have And you go I've got three kids They go to school here Here's their age And then we go okay In the voting ballot paper You get more of a say Because you are creating a future For your kids Oh this is an interesting idea What do you think about that Katie?

55:07Katie Couric:I don't think that's a good idea Why? Why not? I mean You're saying that people with kids Should have more than one vote The same way people with kids Get to board the plane first Yes So no I'd like to know your thoughts on that People with dogs get preferential treatment At the buildings and the parks I want to hear what kitties... Because I don't own a dog, but when I see a dog lover rolling with their dog in a dog park, I'm like, I understand. You wanted this to happen and this is benefiting you. But I, if I was left to vote for your comfort and your dog's comfort, I can tell you now, you and your dog wouldn't be here.

55:42But no, this is interesting. What do you think of that?

55:45Katie Couric:I don't think... I don't know. I've never really thought about it and I just don't think it's practical. Okay. Okay. Katie's going to tell us how. You tell me how. All right, so what do you do, a census? You're saying that people - When you're registering to vote, obviously the government already knows from the birth certificates of your children how many children you have. Can I tell you something? It sounds like a crazy idea. When you said it, I thought it's crazy. When you explain it, there's a little bit of sense to it in that like - It also feeds into Project 2025 where they want more people to have more kids.

56:23Katie Couric:that they feel like that people should be procreating in a much faster rate. Can I tell you, can we just pause it? Can we take a tangent on that? So what if people say, okay, I'm going to have more kids because I want to have more votes. Is that a good reason to have children? No, they would never. It's not a good reason, but your body's not going to cooperate. Like, good luck just making kids. And those partners as well. Yeah, you're in trouble already. I mean, like, the weird thing about the human body is everyone can say like, I'm going to have more kids, but your body might be like, no, you're not.

56:55That that put that wrong to your agenda.

56:56Katie Couric:You know, it's just a weird... I think it's not a good idea. Okay. And I can't really, really get into all the reasons why because I have to really think about this. There we go, Katie. But would you live in an apartment building that's not kid-friendly when you have kids? No. This building says we don't want to hear children playing. We don't want to hear them laughing. We don't want to hear anything. No, I wouldn't. You wouldn't live there, right? But why do we do that with a country? Why would you do that with a state that doesn't allow us to express ourselves and our needs and the things that we care about on a granular level, but on a gigantic scale?

57:32Katie Couric:Well, I think you do by voting for people who you think have policies that are going to be better for your children. But we've discovered that they don't even know how the Department of Health works. It is true. They've told us. They're like, I'm a politician. Okay, how about this? I'll pitch this to you. Before we get to our crazy ideas, can I pitch something? We haven't gotten there yet. No, no, no. Because we are, no, I'm saying before. Oh, the crazy ideas. Because we haven't won Katie over at all. Okay, okay, okay. All right? And also Katie's coffee has run out. That's why I think she's so skeptical.

58:00That's okay. Let's, let's, let's. Okay, how about, how about this? Yeah. Could I pitch to you? How would you feel if I said Nobody should be allowed To run an area of the government That they don't possess an expertise in How do you feel about that? Good Okay Okay, so you would agree Because I think it's strange That somebody who has no experience In the field of medicine or science Can go and run the fields of medicine and science

58:30Katie Couric:Yeah Okay, okay, okay No, so you're with you there Of course And then here's another one Here's another What's that have to do with being able to vote more? No, no, no. I'm just trying to see where we can bring you. Of course. You know I think that. I'm trying to see. Okay, you're building your argument. Okay, go on. I'm just trying to see where we get. Here's my other one. Here's my other one to add because now we're going. We're not going extreme, actually. We're going. These are mediocre. We're trying to win this voter. A voter of one. Every politician that runs to run a certain department must run it, their campaign, together with an elected bureaucrat from that department.

59:11I'm not mad at this. So they're like, Department of Health, yes. And then there's Steve, who's been at the Department of Health for a long time. I like this. And then he endorses me because Steve thinks, should I come in here, there's things that I can do at Capital City that he can't do. But there's things that he can do inside there that I can't do. So his running mate is a bureaucrat. So every politician...

59:31Katie Couric:What if the person who's coming in to power has meaningful and important reforms to institute. You get the bureaucrat who is basically adhering to the status quo and saying, this is the way we've always done it. When the person coming in might say, we need to change this. This needs to be done differently. That's a good point. How do you respond, Eugene? They'll need to convince the bureaucrat why as an outsider, they think that would work when the bureaucrat has been there for 20 years. I don't know. I'm feeling it's getting gummed up now. Where? Because now they have to convince a bureaucrat.

1:00:06Now I'm a little bit with Katie on this one. Okay. If I've been there for 20 years, and I'm telling you, that's how we do a podcast. This is how it's been done. The podcast has been going out. In fact, the fact that you exist as a politician to want to try and run this department means that this thing works. And then you come and you go, no, my constituency says it could be better here, there, and here. You see how we're getting to my voters again, but we're not going to go there. Then the person says, okay, I think if you change this studio and if you change this location, if you change this microphone, then the person who's a bureaucrat that goes, no, if you change that, this is what would happen.

1:00:40If you don't change this, this is what would happen.

1:00:42Katie Couric:But you're saying give them equal authority, right? Yes, because they are running together. So there's no way you can separate the two. I'm with Katie. I'm sorry. So you want the politician to be in charge? You've lost our votes. I don't know. I mean, is it, you're saying that the politician has to have expertise. So in other words, The person is running the CDC has to have expertise in public health. Yes, you should at least have some sort of yes. So if that's the case, that person to me should have the authority. And hopefully you have decent people who are intelligent and knowledgeable and take information from the people who are already there.

1:01:19Katie Couric:But that person has to be in charge because I'm just afraid. Yeah, I just don't like your plan. I'm sorry, Eugene. Sorry, Eugene, you failed. Can I ask you a question? When you - Katie, I'll win you. I'm assuming over the years, you've developed countless sources and people who are insiders and just people who have told you things about - This could be an incorrect assumption, but I'm assuming this because of your time in journalism. Have you heard from people inside what we call the administration and have any of them signaled to you that they're sort of not sure or how do they even manage that incongruency between what they think should be and what is?

1:02:00Katie Couric:I haven't heard that many people who are currently inside the administration because I think, first of all, they are uber paranoid about leaks there. Oh, wow, okay. And whether you're working at the Pentagon or wherever, I think that, and also I think if you're covering something, you have to be at the Pentagon to really have these inside sources. Right. Right. That's why reporters have different beats. Right. So they develop sources and have an expertise in that area. But I do know a lot of people who have left the administration, who have been fired from the administration, who then are speaking out.

1:02:37Katie Couric:For example, I interviewed a senior level FBI agent who talked about kind of what she had seen happening in the FBI, the sort of the wholesale firing of people with expertise, for example, in the Iranian terror threat. Right. Kash Patel just gets rid of this whole unit. Or because some of these agents were investigating some of the perpetrators of January 6th, they got fired. So people like that are much more open to obviously talking about what's happening inside the administration. I think most people who are unhappy have left or are too afraid to talk about why they're unhappy. You know, Liz Oyer was fired as the chief pardon attorney at DOJ.

1:03:27Katie Couric:Now she has this very, very vibrant social media presence and she's talking about what's going on in the DOJ. I'm sure she has sources that some people left who she worked with. But I think it's very difficult, at least for me and maybe White House correspondents who are actually on site and can develop these sources. But I think most of the people in the administration anyway, not necessarily in the federal government. I'm sure there are a lot of people, but they're terrified, too. You know, you speak out and you get shit can't. Right. Right. Right. So I don't really have a lot of people inside this administration who would be able to talk on the record about or, you know, even off the record about their displeasure of how things are being done.

1:04:14I've always been fascinated about how the beats work. So if somebody is, when they say someone is stationed at the Pentagon at the White House, what does that exactly mean? Because I don't assume as a journalist you get to walk around the White House freely and investigate things.

1:04:32Katie Couric:Well, you used to be able to, well, I'll talk about the Pentagon for a second because I was the deputy Pentagon correspondent at NBC only for a year before I became national correspondent on the Today Show and then co-anchor of the Today Show. But basically when you're a deputy or any Pentagon correspondent, whether it's for the Atlantic or the Washington Post or NBC News, you develop sources. You walk around the e-ring, which is the big parameter. Sorry, slow down. Because you're saying it and I don't understand any of it. What does developed sources mean? Well, you talk to people. You introduce yourself to people.

1:05:09Katie Couric:You talk to people from different arms from the Navy, Air Force, Marines. So you just go around and you're like, hi, I'm Katie Couric. I'm a reporter and nice to know you. Well, yeah. Or I remember getting a tip from somebody my first week at the Pentagon. No way. and said, hey, this is happening. Are you interested? What was the story? Do you remember? Yeah. It was about a guy who had secrets and it ended up, yeah, yeah. I think his name was, anyway, he's being accused of being a spy. Oh, wow. Yeah. And that person tipped you. So help me understand this. Why do they do that as opposed to, you would assume if you work at the Pentagon and you know that somebody's a spy, you would just go to your superiors and be like, hey, this person's a spy.

1:06:09Why would they come to you?

1:06:10Katie Couric:I think the person was already being investigated. Okay. And I think they thought it was a good story, that it was worth being in the public domain, and that it was worth reporting on. I mean, I think people have various motivations, right, for telling a reporter something. It could be for their own self-aggrandizement. It could be making them feel powerful. It could be because they truly believe in the public's right to know. Yeah. But anyway, so you would walk around, you would talk to people, you would meet people, you would meet them, you know, getting an egg sandwich in the morning. I mean, all kinds of ways, right?

1:06:48Katie Couric:That's fascinating. And you would walk around. I would just walk around that Pentagon, like do circles around what they called the E-ring. Just 10 ,000 steps. And I would talk to people and introduce myself. and now they have limited your ability to walk around the Pentagon without an escort. There are certain parts of the Pentagon you can't walk around. You know all the different restrictions they've tried to place on reporters at the Pentagon. They first of all kicked out, they got rid of people's workspace. They made the New York Times and I think NBC News and another publication leave because we used to have desks and offices So you'd report from the Pentagon.

1:07:33Katie Couric:Like we had a soundproof booth and they'd come to us. And so they kicked some of them out. They did more administration-friendly news organizations, invited them in. Then they said you had to sign an agreement saying before you reported on a story, even if it wasn't classified information, you had to clear it with the Pentagon. Oh, wow. With the Pentagon people. That feels about dictatory. And then a judge said, you can't do any of this. And now they're still trying to put the Pentagon reporters outside the Pentagon proper. They're trying to annex the reporters and keep them out of the building.

1:08:13Katie Couric:I mean, they're just trying to make it very, very difficult. Now, reporters, to their credit, from the New York Times and all the legitimate news organizations, haven't let it stop them. But one Pentagon correspondent told me that one of her sources is afraid to meet her at a restaurant, right? Or is afraid to be seen talking to her at all, you know, which isn't surprising. But it's just very it's much more difficult and has a chilling effect on what people are going to feel comfortable talking to reporters about. Right. Right. They're going to be so scared. And I think that Pete Hexeth has really made it clear that he will not tolerate any leaking.

1:08:55But that's when you get information about things that are going on that perhaps shouldn't be going on that warrant the public's attention.

1:09:06Katie Couric:So they're doing – it's really upsetting. They're really trying to muzzle reporters and tie their hands behind their backs and make their jobs very difficult. And it's just not right. I sometimes, like how you explain now makes sense of what I always think. I sometimes feel sorry for hardcore journalists who are invested in telling people the news because of how much information just gets lost in between. Right. So if you think about in South Africa right now, what they're trying to do is they're trying to pass a law that incentivizes a whistleblower. So if a whistleblower comes out in a department and says 16 billion rand was stolen, when the person gets convicted, the person gets a share of the money recovered.

1:09:52Whoa, what? Yes. I didn't know this. Yes. So they first get protection while the case is being investigated. That's a great... And then afterwards, they get a cut, a percentage of what was recovered. So I think of the news and I think of the era of maybe like CNN during Desert Storm. and you'd find these journalists in there telling the news. They were the source of the news. They were reporting live from there. So I can imagine someone who has a source, who works at the Pentagon, whoever, gets this information, gets the story out, but they go on social media and there's so much disinformation about the same subject that they fought so hard for.

1:10:28All the meetings they had, the life, their livelihood that they're risking sometimes as a journalist to print a story that is true and there's potential ramifications for a lot of people.

1:10:37Katie Couric:Well, I still, I mean, there is still incredible journalism happening. You know, I think about ProPublica, you know, a nonprofit news organization. And they were the ones who figured out how many of the people who were being arrested and detained by ICE were not guilty of committing serious crimes. And it was something like 85%, right? And then you have like the New York Times or the Atlantic or the New Yorker, it was New Yorker and the New York Times, keeping track of how the Trump family has enriched themselves to the tune of over$4 billion and county. This was a few months ago, so I'm sure it's much higher.

1:11:23Katie Couric:um so you know i think that you're right everything becomes diluted in this media landscape where everyone has a voice and an opinion and pretends to be a journalist but i still believe that for well-informed people and i think media literacy is more important than ever i think that we have to have people who understand how to how to consume information and to judge information and the accuracy. But I think that those stories do break through. And then what happens is, you know, for all the bellyaching about mainstream media, whatever that is now, you know, it's these big organizations, news organizations, some of them who are invested in news gathering.

1:12:17Katie Couric:They're reporting on stories. And then those stories are then ingested by other people and explained to their social media followers. You know, so a lot of these single sort of social media opinion givers and reporters are taking the reporting, the core of the reporting done by these news organizations. And basically, I don't want to say plagiarizing, but they're basically reporting what these other people. have been working so hard to report. So in a way, it has a ripple effect. And so these news organizations are doing a great service and even amplifying it, even if they're putting it in their own words, is a positive thing because it is the result of oftentimes weeks, if not months, of reporting, if that makes sense.

1:13:15Katie Couric:No, it makes complete sense. Yeah. I wonder how you grapple with, as a journalist, when to put free speech or the freedom of the press above or below what you may perceive as the interests of the country. Because this has always fascinated me. You know, America will be conducting a military exercise or something. and then I'll see in the newspaper they'll go well the military plans to da da da and they plan to blah blah blah then I'm like do other countries not read newspapers because it seems weird that you can you can say you can report what is going to happen yeah like I'll read in the newspaper that they've just discovered that the military is planning to do X, Y, Z well that's what happened in South Africa there was a military operation joint military operation that was ran with the US army and the South African army and the president didn't know about it and then someone reports it came out.

1:14:12Yeah, it was reported in the news. Yes, but now - Then he had to call the general in for an inquiry. Yes. Imagine how weird that was. But this is what I mean. Yeah. This is what I'm saying. He found out in real time with the rest of us.

1:14:23Katie Couric:Yes, but what I'm saying is as a journalist - I think there are national security considerations that I think you pay attention to. If there, if, I'm trying to think if there was an example like that when I was at the Pentagon. You know, Panama, for example, I think, I do think that you do weigh sort of national security considerations with the public's right to know. You know, and I think it's a case by case situation. So I think that a lot of, I don't know, now in the current landscape, who knows, right? But I think most legitimate journalists in a certain situation wouldn't necessarily preempt a military action.

1:15:09Katie Couric:I'm trying to think of examples and report on them prior to them taking place. But they might. I have to really think about that and look back on different cases. It's such a strange one because I don't know if people... So, okay, like an example. Let's use a hypothetical. Nicolas Maduro the US military going in and getting him and then bringing him to the US that's what we call it now what do you want what do you want to call it what do you mean getting him like they're giving him a lift they got him he wasn't in a sleepover he was not like you want to go build a friend and his mom went to go get him nah no that would be picked him up got him means like got him you get what I'm saying that's why you say got him versus picked him if I said like hey what happened to my friend Eugene the other day I'd be like oh yeah I picked him up I'd never be like I got him.

1:15:55Oh, but you could also say, I'm going to get Eugene later so I can't meet you at three. I'm going to get Eugene. Yeah, yeah, this is true. I guess it depends on like the inflection. But if Eugene does not want to... Maybe say snatched. Snatched. Yeah, if Eugene doesn't want to come to your house, what word would you use? Okay, I'm going to use snatched then. They went and snatched him. They went and snatched him. Okay, sharp. That type of story, or even let's say Iran, when you look at how the public, and obviously it's not all of the public, but when you look at how the American people have responded post some of these things, maybe Venezuelan people weren't as attached.

1:16:36So they're like, we don't understand what's happening. We don't understand why we're doing this. But then with Iran, the American public seems to be against this en masse. Most of the people in America are going, we don't want this and we did not want this. I wonder if a journalist had known - Especially a billion dollars a day, right? Is that what it is now? A billion dollars a day. Oh, man, that's a lot of Ozempic people could be buying. People are like, there's no money for healthcare, but there's money, man. if someone could have reported that because somebody knew something ahead of time i wonder if that type of reporting which seems to go against the sort of interests of the administration go in the interest of the country because if if if the country knew beforehand and then the country goes we heard this is going to happen we don't like it there's a good chance

1:17:26Katie Couric:it wouldn't happen well i think it was pretty clear that something was going to happen in iran with all the ships that had been deployed and all that, right? And you think about the lead up to the war in Iraq, right? The whole argument that the Bush administration was making about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that turned out to be wrong. And I think the reporting on that was pretty strong, right? But it was strange because that was sort of post 9-11. And there was a tendency, certainly for Afghanistan, but later for Iraq, to not question sort of the administration as vociferously as they should have been in the run up to the war in Iraq.

1:18:06Katie Couric:And the White House correspondents and a lot of journalists were roundly criticized for not questioning what was happening more. But they were definitely reporting on it. And I think, yeah, I'm going to go back and look at sort of how military operations, if anyone scooped a military operation, if it had a negative impact on the execution of that operation. That would be fascinating to me. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure there are a lot of cases. Yeah. I can't think of any now. We'll be right back after the short break. Football season is here, and the fantasy footballers are back to help you dominate your league.

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1:20:18How do you, or how have you, I should say, because I think you've done a really good job of it. how have you managed to be katie curick the person and katie curick the journalist for as long as you have and sort of maintained especially on the journalistic side of the like the the prestige of that role and not lost it because people like know who you are you know you you've spoken about your family you've spoken about loss you've spoken about death in your life you've you've shared so many things as a human being and yet at the same time i don't know how to explain it it's almost like it hasn't celebrity-fied your your journalism if that makes sense people tainted it yeah yeah because you know sometimes sometimes sometimes some news people or some journalists start to like become the stories in some ways yeah i wonder how you've how you've how you've have you purposefully looked to strike that balance and how have you done that not really

1:21:19Katie Couric:I mean, I sort of don't feel like I am two different people. And at times, I think I have become the story, right? In a way, I use my husband's death to become a cancer advocate, right? And so that is when my personal plight and my journalism have intersected, right? In terms of trying to inform the public about colon cancer and colon cancer screenings. I mean, they still call that the Couric effect, right? Well, the fact that, yeah, colon cancer screenings increased 20 % after I did a colonoscopy on the Today Show. I know, it was crazy. Sorry for your loss, by the way. Thank you. I appreciate that.

1:22:02But I don't know.

1:22:03Katie Couric:That's kind of, I don't even know how to answer that question. I am a person and I'm a journalist. And listen, I try to do the best I can in both roles, right?

1:22:18Katie Couric:Yeah, I don't really see a delineation between, of course, I have my personal life that I don't necessarily share with everyone. And then I have my professional desire to keep people informed. But I don't know. I've never been asked that question. I don't really know how to answer it. How do you take a break from being informed? It's hard, you know. Selfishly. It's really hard because the volume and velocity of stuff coming to you, if you kind of check out for a day, I feel like, oh my God. You miss a war. I feel like I don't know what's going on. You lose a billion dollars a day. And you're like, oh my God, wait, what?

1:23:04Katie Couric:And there's so much to keep up with. And I was just rereading a couple of stories, preparing for our conversation. And I was like, I have to really understand why the CDC kept this report about the COVID vaccine from being made public. I know they did it. I saw the headline. But I don't know enough about why they did it. And what did they say? Because I also read that. But all I thought was that they were just like, we don't think that this is valid. They questioned the methodology. That's what I mean. Which was, you know, this morbidity mortality weekly report, which must be really a fun read.

1:23:43Katie Couric:That is published by the CDC and has never changed how they go about analyzing information. Because, well, they kept it, they blocked it because it didn't fit with their narrative. Because it showed the COVID vaccine decreased emergency room visits by 55 % and hospitalizations by 50%. And this is a CDC and, you know, Department of, you know, RFK juniors. What is his? It's what is RFK in charge of you guys? What is the health secretary? Yeah, health and human services. Health and human services. Sorry, health and human services. Sorry. Department of Health. I'm getting my acronym. Yeah, we call it the Department of Health.

1:24:32Katie Couric:Health and Human Services. You know, they are clearly anti-vaccine, anti-COVID vaccine. So they are suppressing a report that showed the positive impact of the COVID vaccine. Trump's vaccine, may I add, I don't know why my man gets no credit for that vaccine. He put Operation Warp Speed into effect. You remember this? Yes. And in fact, somebody was talking the other day on Capitol Hill. And he was pushing it hard. Trump was the one. One of his proudest accomplishments. It was one of his proudest. And he should be proud of it. And now, you know, obviously it doesn't fit the narrative. Now he's stepping back from the responsibility of it?

1:25:09No, not even. It's like what happened was weird. Trump was responsible for like, he was at the head of spearheading this COVID-19 vaccine in record time. Not just the rollout, but the acceptance of it. Getting the entire scientific community to research a thing, to put into place a system that normally would take up to a decade or something. And saying, how do we run certain processes concurrently to make sure that we can get this out as quickly as possible so the world can come back to life? That's a good thing, right? It was a fantastic thing.

1:25:37Katie Couric:It's a fantastic thing. Trump was also proud of it, by the way. And of course, mRNA vaccines and this whole approach is actually responsible for this new immunotherapy that they think has a lot of promise for pancreatic cancer. So not only was the COVID vaccine a positive, it also led to a lot of other vaccines for other serious illnesses and a new kind of therapeutic approach. So, but in this world where black is white and white is black and up is down and down is up. It didn't fit with what the base and the narrative were going with. And so what was strange was, Trump said it at one of his rallies, I remember.

1:26:24He said, he's like, the COVID vaccine, it was my vaccine. I did it. I did. And the president was like, boo, he's like, a lot of people, but they don't like that. They don't like it. So I don't talk about it. I don't talk about it. But he was like, yo, I did that thing. It's not Biden's vaccine. It's my vaccine. but because his people didn't like it. Don't want him to talk about it. He was like, all right, fine. But it is mine, but fine. Nobody wants to talk about it.

1:26:43Katie Couric:I'm not going to talk about it anymore. This assault on science is so infuriating, especially someone like me who's tried to devote so much time to cancer research, to raising money, to support science, and this idea that people don't believe the scientific community and the way that Anthony Fauci has been demonized is just, in my view, a disgrace. Yeah, I think it's a, you know, it's one of those things where hindsight is 20-20. So I remember when we had Dr. Fauci on the show and I asked him this question or a version of it, it's like, how much do you feel responsibility to inform people of what's happening?

1:27:29Because at the time, the thing I said as well about like the CDC and all of it was they were giving mixed messages. You know so first they told us Don't wear masks Please do not wear masks Masks are not for you Don't wear the masks Don't wear the masks And then all of a sudden They were like Everyone get a mask And we're like What the hell just happened here And it was like This many feet away from other people No feet Indoor And then when you realize They were trying to like Manage people I was That was like The only criticism I had Was I went Regardless of your intentions And I think parents See this a lot Sometimes you think You're going to lie to your kid for a good reason.

1:28:06Right. And your kid will appreciate it.

1:28:07Katie Couric:I think they should have been more transparent that this is a new virus. We are learning about it every day. We're learning about transmission. We're learning about how deadly it is. We are learning and we are really doing this as we go. Sweden did that. Yeah. And I think that that would have perhaps made people less critical of kind of, oh, wait, now this, now that. Actually, on the other hand, well, we've reevaluated this. And I think that science, you know, there's an art to science too, and it's cumulative, and you don't necessarily have all the answers immediately. And I think the scientific and medical community did an incredible job of taking this pandemic and trying to understand it.

1:28:59Katie Couric:But I think there was something lost in communicating what they were learning to the general public. Yeah. It's a shame. But I don't think it warrants the kind of - Oh, no. Like the world ending demon. It's extreme. But it's also, again, it goes back to the sports of it all. If you ask sports fans what should happen to somebody who's made a bad tackle, depends on the team. Someone would be like, oh, come on. That happens. Walk it off. The other time was like, no, kick him out of the game. Eject that person and ban them even. That was the most flagrant. So I think - The tribalism is just out of control.

1:29:38That has marred how Americans in particular, I find, discuss any issue. But I also think - This is something I've always wondered, even in journalism. When did that thing, not that you immediately know, but why do they put Republican or Democrat before somebody's name in an article? Why does American news report things like that? Or they'll even say a win for Democrats as child care law passes. Then I'm like, but why don't they just say child care law has passed? Win for the people. I've always wondered that. Like, why do they, in my opinion.

1:30:14Katie Couric:I guess in a two-party system, you. Have to. I guess maybe it's a way of figuring out people's priorities and getting back to elections. what they care about and what they choose to focus on and move the needle on, right? What promise seems delivered and by whom? Yeah, but what I mean, okay, so it would be different if the headline said, Democrats promised childcare law, it has now been passed. I know this is not a sexy headline, right? But that is what happened. But if they go, in a win for Democrats, childcare law passed, to me, it makes it seem like the republicans have lost and the democrats have won and the child care law doesn't have anything to do with the children in the law it just has to do with who passed it i mean i don't know where you saw that headline oh no no this is yeah there's a headline i'm but i could pull them there's always like in a win for in a you know and then the other one is just when people speak so they'll go um republican katie couric passes law on or says that we need to have fewer this.

1:31:22And sometimes I think if you could remove that R or D before the issue, I think people would approach it with a more neutral and honest opinion. Perhaps. You know? Did you ever see that quiz that the New York Times did? You didn't see this, but you'd love this though. You'd love this. How do you know I didn't see the quiz? Ah, Brian, you don't read. I know this. So... No, so it was here in the New York Times. they put out a quiz it was around like when Hillary, Bernie everyone was running so I think 2016 somewhere there and the quiz was you just choose your issues we'll tell you who you should vote for oh wow and I remember in the building we did this in the office and everyone ran this quiz right and I was working at the Daily Show at the time and so you know some people were liberal some people conservative something everyone but everyone had their idea they were so confident they're like oh i know i'm gonna get hillary i know this for sure oh i'm definitely gonna get this but i'm definitely gonna get blind tasting of issues it was literally that you just do you think america spends a too much money on the military b not enough money c just the right amount d well you know what i mean they did that for every issue and at the end they would go this is the candidate who aligns with you the amount of panic and angst in the building when people got their results and it even went viral at the time but i remember people going this can't be right i'm not a bernie voter and you're like no no but everything you want issues align with the candidate and that's when i realized half of the time we are not looking at the issue we are looking at the person we associate the issue with and then we're making the decision based on that but circle back to my earlier proposition of how elections should be running this is not election time we're not going back to you're voting on the issue no no no no i agree with but what i'm saying is do you get what i mean don't agree uh katie please you're a journalist you know this tactic he's printing a retraction i'm not printing a retraction no no i said i agree with i said i agree with issue based no no but i originally agreed with issue based no i i had already agreed with it okay sure the thing I didn't agree with you on was the bureaucrat buddy coming to elections.

1:33:40Like a bureaucrat buddy. Yeah, bureaucrat buddy I didn't agree with. Yeah, that I didn't agree with. But do you understand what I'm saying? It's like I wonder, maybe responsibility is the wrong word. But there's one part of journalism that is finding out the facts and the information and what is going on. And verifying them. There's another part that is framing it. How is it put to people? Packaging it. Yes. And that's the thing I sometimes, I just find myself wondering, because I didn't grow up like that, is like, why is it necessary to have that person's political affiliation when they were just saying or doing something?

1:34:21Because then I think it limits a person's ability to just go, I like or don't like that.

1:34:26Katie Couric:Or to say a Republican can actually have a good policy if you're a Democrat or a Democrat can actually, that's a good idea. Well, hopefully these things are bipartisan. I mean, I'd like to go back and see the headlines that you have in mind. I mean, I think that people just, I don't know, you know, just very, very traditional and very, I think, has the way it's been done with Republicans and Democrats. And I don't know. I don't see a problem with that. You don't? Mm-mm. Huh. Hmm. You know, when I realized how powerful it can be was when we did a piece on how there was a town, I forget where this was, but basically someone was running for mayor in a city.

1:35:18And in the city, and I think there's a few places like this, you're not allowed to say whether you're Republican or Democrat when you're running for mayor. You just run. Really? Yeah. and this place has like one of the highest rates of people voting across party lines because they don't know which party the person's from. So they just go, who's running? Eugene. Eugene wants clean water. Eugene thinks there should be more cows. There should be fewer windmills. Parents should get more votes. Parents should have more votes. People should vote on issues instead of individuals. Exactly. And then they go like, okay, we've also got Katie Couric.

1:35:53Katie wants more journalism, more desks at the Pentagon, more egg sandwiches. and she wants more colonoscopies and this is her platform that she's running on. Yes. The people vote? Trevor wants. Good times.

1:36:08Katie Couric:So you're saying the obsession with two parties is polarizing in and of itself. No, I'm saying the identity of it first, I believe, limits people's ability. If I met you and the first thing you said to me was, hi, Republican Katie Couric, no matter what my brain has now put you in a certain space even if you said hi democrat katie i'll be like okay my brain has put you in a space hello liverpool supporter trevor noah your brain already goes if you're a manchester united supporter you're like i don't know about this guy for me the joy is you meet people you talk you discuss things you experience life and then at some point somebody goes you're an eagles fan oh man i'm a chiefs fan i didn't know you're an Eagles fan the whole time.

1:36:55Okay, okay. That's what I think it robs people of, honestly, in my opinion.

1:36:59Katie Couric:No, I understand what you're saying. There was a Heineken commercial a few years ago about people putting together a bar. Did you ever see this? Building things together. Yeah. Yes. And nobody knew anything about anyone's background. And there was a trans person there. Yes. There were just kind of a whole kind of - It was a complete gamut. Slice of life. Yeah. It ran, yeah. And it basically, I think this is sort of the point you're making, to kind of get rid of your preconceived notions and to be more open-minded for different perspectives. By the time they finished doing the bar, they all kind of had done something together.

1:37:36Katie Couric:They had talked to each other. They'd gotten to know each other. And it removed all these kind of, you know, very specific, you know, preconceptions about each other. So I think if that's what you're saying, I understand. I mean, I don't know about removing the D and the R, if that's going to be the solution. Oh, not solution. It's like I'm pitching an amendment is where I go. Because to your point, you know what I loved about that commercial in particular? Was they brought people in. They knew they had very extreme views about certain issues. They made them work on something together. They would work and they would struggle and they built something together.

1:38:19and then afterwards they'd get them to say why the other person was so good and why they worked well together and they'd be like, oh man, Eugene really builds well and Katie is such a wonderful teammate and they had all these effusive things and they said, all right, now we want to show you a video and they gave you like a video.

1:38:35Katie Couric:And the person described who they were. Yes, and then it was like, hello Eugene, here's a video and it was Katie Couric. You should watch it actually. It's amazing, it's amazing. And then you get the video and it's like, I'm Katie Couric. Man, if there's one thing I hate, it's South Africans. Short South Africans who are comedians with glasses. I hate them with all my heart. Me too. Or more like I am a woman. I believe in a woman's right to choose. I believe in this. I believe in LGBTQ rights. I believe in this. And it just kind of all these differences evaporated. And it was very interesting.

1:39:17Katie Couric:It was beautiful because people said. People saw each other as humans, not as. There you go. Ideologues. I sometimes, do you think that that's also part of the role of journalism is to make everyone in a society see the other people in that society? Yeah, but I think it's really hard now because I think when you're – there's so much fragmentation and you want to get an audience. There's a real – there's an advantage to appealing to people who feel strongly one way or another. And it's less of, let's talk about the nuances of this story. It's more, as my friend Kara Swisher says, like engagement through enragement.

1:40:11Katie Couric:How do you get people, especially social media and these platforms, obviously, it's all about the attention economy, how long you're going to stay on the platform, how much you're going to engage on the platform. And so I think that there's not an emphasis on kind of a conversation where two people could show a different point of view. I mean, I guess Abby Phillip does that in some ways on her CNN show.

1:40:42Katie Couric:But that show frustrates me too sometimes. Why? Because, well, like last night, or I saw a clip, or maybe it was last night, that they were talking about all the very incendiary things that President Trump has said. Yeah. And this one Republican kept insisting that he was really changing the dialogue, but he would not, or changing kind of the temperature, lowering the temperature of debate or whatever he was saying. And yet he would not concede that some of the things that Trump has said are wrong, wrong. You know, you don't cheer when Robert Mueller dies. Right, yeah. You know, a true patriot, you know, and so many things.

1:41:28Katie Couric:I mean, we could list chapter and verse all the things, the incendiary and just honestly, you know, disgusting things that Trump has said and done. And he would not just say, you know what? That was wrong. He shouldn't do that. It's sort of like he didn't want to give an inch. No. But there's no reward in that, I find now. Well, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, in society. Okay, I hear you. Yeah, there's no reward. He is describing. He is on a team to get back to your sort of team point. And he does not want to do anything that will make people doubt his loyalty to that team. I would even argue. So the environment just isn't receptive to kind of this give and take.

1:42:12Katie Couric:It's everyone is sort of has picked their side. Yeah. But I would even argue in that instance, I would levy some of the blame on the producers of the show because I would go, you know full well that you're not bringing somebody here to have a meaningful discussion. You're bringing somebody to play a part against somebody who's playing a part. Yeah. Because when I watch those shows. disgusting yeah the people are very much you can say whatever and it'd be like oh uh donald trump choked a puppy well let me i mean who likes puppies come on let's talk and you're like you don't think that but because your job here is to be the pro-trump or republican person and your job is to be the pro-democrat pro i almost go like i'm like oh we haven't we actually haven't created a show about discourse and dialogue we've created the theater of it yeah that makes both sides feel scene and it feels like a way to like try and grab both sides but it doesn't feel like a meaningful way to actually have a discussion yeah i agree and i guess the question is again i i think just because i've covered so many administrations do we normalize some of the things the trump administration is doing by giving it weight in an argument, right?

1:43:30Katie Couric:And are these policy differences or is it something more dangerous? And the question is, do you legitimize that by having that conversation? I don't know. That's the conundrum. apply the normal way of doing things to an abnormal thing are you now making the abnormal normal very normal yeah essentially is what you're saying so when when i mean we we we've we find you at a point in your journey you know it feels like one of your many evolutions what is your what is your dream what is your like if you if you look at what you're doing now in life, where you're trying to go with it, what do you hope it becomes and what do you hope it fills in society?

1:44:21Katie Couric:I mean, I don't hope it becomes anything. I hope that I can continue to give voice to people who have the wisdom and the experience and the understanding and the knowledge to share what we're all witnessing together and to give it a perspective that I think is right. You know, I ask the questions. I don't always have the answers. But if I want to talk to somebody who I think does, who can give an honest appraisal of what's going on, and that's what I want to help share with the world. If that's helpful to people, if they're the way they see the world, I mean, obviously I'm giving them a platform.

1:45:17Katie Couric:So there has to be some kind of level of me kind of feeling like their views are worth exposing and airing and putting out there for the public. But that's what I hope to continue to do. I think, you know, I gave a speech last night. I got an award and I was talking about how science is refuted, how, you know, the Constitution is being ignored, how expertise is being derided. So all those things I want to give voice to. And that's all. I want to be of service to democracy in any way I can. and to the values that I hold dear, you know, scientific discovery and advancement, the rule of law, you know, expertise.

1:46:16Katie Couric:You know, I was reviewing this book by Tom Nichols. I think it was written in 2017. It was called The Death of Expertise and why people don't trust people who have a deep well of knowledge in a certain area because everyone is an expert now. Everyone has an opinion. And then I think the democratization of media means that everyone thinks everyone's opinion holds the same weight, but it doesn't. There's so many opinions without portfolio out there. I want to talk about the COVID vaccine with a scientist who has studied it you know, and who will really truly understand the impact of it, not somebody who's trying to kind of perpetrate a narrative about the, you know, the vaccines are unsafe.

1:47:06Katie Couric:You know, nothing is 100 % safe, by the way. And I think that that needs to be transparent too, to the American public. But, you know, so trying to use my ability to elicit questions and to ask questions that I think most people have and to be able to turn to somebody who really understands an issue, who understands like the role of NATO in the 20th century and, you know, post-World War II and what it has done and what it has meant while acknowledging that perhaps some countries haven't paid enough, right, into NATO, but kind of understanding the framework, I want to talk to a historian who can talk about that.

1:47:54Katie Couric:Right. Not somebody who just says NATO sucks and they're not paying their fair share. Right? It's the nuance. It's the nuance and the complication. And I think, yeah, your endeavor is valid because I think it does something. One of the first things you said in explaining this is you said, I paraphrase you, but basically you said something to the effect of, I want to report on the world and the realities that we are all experiencing. I think that is one of the most important things we take for granted, is just giving people a view of a reality that we do share. I always say, let's argue about reality, but let's not dispute it.

1:48:43We can argue all we want. Yeah, but let's not dispute reality itself.

1:48:48Katie Couric:And also, you know, it's messy. Yeah, it is messy. There's no clear-cut answer on some of these things. You know, my daughter often talks about the ability to think dialectically. Yes, and. And I think we've lost our ability to do that. Yes, two things may be true at the same time. You know, the regime in Iran was terrible and, you know, was able to survive for too long. A brutal theocracy, right, that was doing all kinds of terrible things to its people and to the region and potentially to the world, right? You can say that. Was it right to do this now? And what was the rationale, right? So I think that also people are afraid.

1:49:37And the way it's been done.

1:49:38Katie Couric:And I think this tribalism has made people really wary of dealing in the gray areas and the complexities of situations. Yeah, scared to be wrong. And yeah, I think you're right. Scared to be wrong and messy, I think. Messy is the big one. Yeah, because I think being scared to be wrong foils debate from the onset. If you run the risk of being wrong, you will never allow your opinion to be challenged, number one. But I think what this conversation has helped me realize is the importance of journalists. Because I think a lot of people who consume short bites of media on social media do not understand that their favorite influencer that tells them the news got that news from a journalist who verified the sources, who wrote the story, who broadcast the story, and someone takes it and runs with it.

1:50:25So we still need and we should have a deep appreciation for hardworking journalists such as yourself and other people that you know in the industry. Definitely.

1:50:33Katie Couric:I'm so glad you said that because I'm working on a documentary or trying to develop a documentary about the evolution of the news business because, you know, I got into this business in 1979. Right. And how it's changed. Back in the day, Katie. And we should call it back in the day. It is called back in the day. And sort of what it means and how important it is to have a common understanding of truth in a democracy. Yeah, that's the thing. Right? And we have lost that. You know, people call it truth decay. Yeah. And, you know, what that means in terms of keeping a democracy strong. Yeah. It's one of the, it's part of an immune system is the way I think of it.

1:51:22right yeah a body is a messy thing its systems are strangely messy but they all work in in a direction so like sometimes you feel bad like you feel sick because your body is fighting to make you unsick but you feel bad because of your own body does that make sense yes your immune

1:51:40Katie Couric:system yes right but it's weird if you oh wait wait no a virus gets in there yeah but the immune system is the thing that we're experiencing actually is like your body is making the reaction Yes, the reaction. Yes. We're experiencing the reaction. That's what I mean. And that's what I mean by the messiness of it all. It's like sometimes I think we take for granted that the correct way or the best way we've figured out for things to work is the messy way. It's like the journalism will reveal messy truths about your country and your people and outsiders and insiders. And if it's good journalism, it will force you to grapple with those truths.

1:52:15Right. Like you're saying. And to think, yes.

1:52:17Katie Couric:Unfortunately, I think all of us have gotten intellectually lazy where we immediately go to our side of the argument. And it's not like, well, wait, what? Maybe this should have happened differently. Or maybe that person has a point. You don't have to agree with them on everything. But our ability to kind of look at something critically and dialectically, I think, has been lost in this very binary black and white world we live in. Good, bad. I mean, again, I find it gets complicated when you're talking about a president who does the things this president does. Yeah. You know, because I do think, you know, it's been said it's not left, right, it's right, wrong, right?

1:53:13Katie Couric:And it is very difficult to kind of do those, you know, moral equivalencies when you feel like one side of the ledger is really wrong, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. So that to me is the real challenge. It's not two different perspectives on policy. Like how do you solve the homeless problem? Yes, exactly. It is a way of doing business that feels wrong and unjust. You know, building of what,$400 million ballroom that is going to eclipse the White House without going through the proper process of getting permission or loading the people. Oh, it's law for everyone except me. Right. You know?

1:54:15Katie Couric:And so I think that's where it's become really difficult and challenging, I think. for a journalist? Well, thankfully, difficult and challenging is sort of what you've specialized in. I think it's what many, towards Eugene, saying great journalists have specialized in. Difficult and challenging was, you know, covering a Gulf War. Difficult and challenging was, you know, tracking a drug smuggling ring. Difficult and challenging is finding a source, informing people trying to make it palatable or even digestible for a public. Genuinely, all I can say is I think myself and many other people, we're grateful to people like you because we don't realize how much of our knowledge is based on, as Eugene said, the work of other people.

1:55:09And then what we do is we turn around and we go, I don't need that. I don't need the news and I don't read the news because, you know, I actually heard this thing the other day about Howard. I'm like, Yeah, where do you think you heard it from? Where do you think that person heard it from? People just make it like it comes out of thin air. I actually saw a thing that said, it's like, yeah, the same journalists that you will vilify, the same ones, are the ones who put out the news about how something that was reported a while ago has now changed. It's the same place. Like, I've always found it funny that people will go, the New York Times said this, the New York Times put out a story now saying that something they reported on 10, 15 years ago was like wrong.

1:55:50Not a correction, but they're saying like, hey, actually we've just discovered this. And then people go, see the New York Times put out this thing where they found out that this many years ago they were wrong. I'm like, yeah, but where did you hear this? From the New York Times. So you should be grateful that the thing exists in its imperfect state because it is still providing a service.

1:56:10Katie Couric:But I also think people have to take the responsibility of being informed seriously. Ah, we want to be lazy, Katie. Why are you doing this to us? We just want to sit on the couch. I was talking to some people in Virginia about the redistricting vote. And one of the people were saying, somebody I was talking to said, you know, people felt like it was morally wrong. Gerrymandering is wrong. But I said, did they understand that this started in Texas by a mid-census year request by the President of the United States to redistrict in Texas so there would be more Republican seats? Do they understand that was the genesis of all this?

1:56:57Katie Couric:And then it happened in California and then North Carolina and then Missouri and now Virginia. And if people don't pay attention and don't understand, they have to be informed. And they needed to understand, well, Virginia is doing this because it started in Texas. And if the Democrats hadn't responded in California and Virginia, then the chances, then it would be very lopsided for the midterm elections. Yeah, it becomes an unending, yeah. But it's sort of like, and did you know that in 2018, the Democrats proposed legislation, I think it was 2018, to end gerrymandering, period. Yeah, full stop.

1:57:37Katie Couric:And no Republicans voted for it. So I think people just need to have the background and educate themselves before they have an opinion. I think that the assault on journalism is probably more on the journalism profession itself because it's not made as sexy and as essential. You know, people talk about policemen. Well, that's because everyone thinks they are one. Yes, exactly. So I think maybe the battlefield where else we would see a journalist reporting in the battlefield. I think the new battlefield is exactly where the plagiarism is happening and the misinformation is happening on social media.

1:58:15I think now the journalist needs to hold that phone in front of their face as they held the microphone during the Gulf War and say, in this battlefield, this is the truth and this is not the truth. Because right now I think we've just left it all up to people who have nice phones and nice lighting and too much time on their hands to tell the stories. I think the journalists need to go. So that's why I'm happy when I see big publications of social media accounts. I was actually about to ask, is there a reason that you decided to go? Because you have gone exactly to what Eugene said. Like you've done that.

1:58:45You've gone to where the people are.

1:58:47Katie Couric:Well, that's, I mean, it was pretty obvious. It didn't take a brain surgeon to see where the puck was going. Excuse me, KD. No, not you. It didn't take a brain surgeon, though, people in my profession, to see that linear television news was declining. Right. That people were getting, increasingly getting their news and information online. and that you had to then, and people I think in legacy media organizations were kind of caught flat footed because they had a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. They talk about analog dollars and digital pennies and this is where they were making the money.

1:59:27Katie Couric:They didn't want to cannibalize their product. But as their viewers got older and older and everyone else was looking at their phones for information. Now they're finally catching up. And you're seeing, you know, network and local even reporters, even though so many local newspapers like 2 ,500 have closed since I think 2004. But you're seeing them adapt to these new platforms where people are getting their information. And by the way, I listen on Instagram to somebody from the New York Times, even if it's a reporter, an opinion person. I listen to somebody from ABC News online. I still pay attention and consider the source of the information.

2:00:18Katie Couric:And that's what I mean about media literacy. People need to understand there are certain standards from different news outlets and organizations that are adhered to where information is vetted and sourced and edited and verified. There's accountability. Yeah. And I think that it's been very hard with this flood of people just kind of giving information, influencers. It's like, I'm sorry, where did you get that information? Why are you saying this? Where did this come from? But people can't, it's hard to discern who is legitimate and who's not when there's a sea of people all kind of talking to you on your phone.

2:00:58Yeah. Well, I mean, like I say, literally it's one step at a time. It's one challenge at a time. I love how much vigor you have for it, by the way, because a lot of people would be like, I've done my time, I'm done, but you still have the...

2:01:12Katie Couric:I love it. That's what I mean. I can see that. That's why it's selfish, because I love learning about the world. I love understanding. So when I'm talking to somebody about a subject, if I'm talking to a former military person about the challenges of the war in Iran and drone warfare and what's changed, I want to learn that. You know, so I feel like selfishly, I'm learning something every day. And if I then can help by my ignorance or my desire to become more knowledgeable can then help someone else be like, oh, wow, I didn't know that. That's interesting or whatever. I feel like I'm serving myself and hopefully other people at the same time, if that makes sense.

2:02:04That makes complete sense. That's when you know you've reached your ultimate purpose. When it serves you first.

2:02:09Katie Couric:In the same speech last night, I said I became a journalist because I love to write and I'm very nosy. And I am sort of insatiably curious. And it's hard because I feel frustrated. I think about, God, all this stuff I don't know and understand. But if I can carve out a little bit every day and learn something new or understand something more deeply, that's that's so great it's the greatest gift isn't it i mean and i think people people need to to be open to new information and knowledge and And it's just, and then when you have an opinion about something, you know, and I like some of the stuff that we've talked about, I don't know, right?

2:02:56Katie Couric:And I have to go and study something before I have an opinion and talk to legitimate experts and really learn about something. You would never work as a podcaster, Katie. You can't go study the things. We just need opinions now, Katie. But do you know what I mean? No research required, Katie. Verbal clickbait. This is podcasting, Katie. Someone asks you a question, you go, this is the answer. This is podcasting, Katie. Trying to be informed here. What are you trying to do? Take your jeans job? But, right? I mean, I don't want to give an opinion. Like when you were asking me about national security versus the public's right to know.

2:03:35Katie Couric:I saw you do that. Yeah, I saw. Well, I would like to go back and really identify incidents where that happened or didn't happen so I could talk more intelligently about it. Can I tell you, that is probably one of the greatest learnings we've had on this show over time, is that the people who oftentimes have the most expertise and the people who are oftentimes the most well-versed in any particular discipline also operate with higher levels of doubt than everyone else. it's it's a it's a it's a powerful and beautiful humility to see doctors scientists journalists but i mean at the top of their game going i don't know i need to yeah i'm not sure about that let me i actually don't know on and you you go like wow oh this this is in a strange way it's like going an expert is somebody who knows so much that they know how little they know yeah right do you know They truly like, they go, yeah, I don't.

2:04:39And then the rest of us are genuinely like, I'm an expert in this. It's like, what do you know? I mean, I've watched a few videos. I've seen a few things. I know. But that thing there is a gift that I hope you don't ever take for granted. Yeah. That doubt, because in your position, I'm not going to lie. If I was in your position, I would be like, yo, I'll tell you everything about the news. I know everything about everything. You can't tell me nothing. But for Katie Couric to go, I don't know. Let me go and read up on this. Let me go and, even for me, just in that moment, And it inspired me to be like, oh, yeah, don't forget that you can always go back and read.

2:05:10You can always go back and learn. And you can always admit that you just don't know.

2:05:15Katie Couric:I mean, I think that I've been doing this long enough and I'm old enough to have the confidence. You know, I'm sure there was a time where I would have just like been blah, blah, blah, you know. And even now I think, oh, gosh, am I going to sound dumb or uninformed or uneducated about a certain thing? Like, what would David Sanger, the national security correspondent for The New York Times, say about this? What examples would he give? But I'd rather admit that I don't know than to say something that's wrong. All great debates are foiled by the risk of being wrong. That's what I think. You're a real one, Katie.

2:05:51Katie Couric:You've just proved it, Katie. I don't know. No, you have. You have. You're a real one. Thank you for joining us. No, this was really fun. This was amazing. Jean, so nice to meet you. Really enjoyed talking to you in your new turquoise-era jacket. Thank you. Thank you. And this was very interesting. You know, you guys raised a lot of issues, asked a lot of questions, proposed a lot of interesting ideas. Interesting. Challenged sort of the status quo and the way things are done and made me think a lot. So thank you. Thank you, Katie Kirk. This was genuinely a joy. Thank you so much. Thank you.

2:06:48Thank you.

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