LL Cool J: Four Decades of Relevance

27:35They'll wait in line for hours It'll be on TikTok And you go This is the same chef They wouldn't even care How much they're paying Exactly They'll be like But this chef at that restaurant They go Have you been to his restaurant We didn't even know He has a restaurant We just know the food truck And that's when you realize It's not about changing the art To the audience It's just about understanding The institution that you've The presentation Yeah And that's something I've noticed you do consistently Two things One You're not afraid to relearn I mean you talked about this You know with Q-Tip for instance It's like You said something that I've only heard one other great, and I mean like a goat say, and there was Tiger Woods, when he said he had to relearn his swing.

28:13And I remember hearing that going, what do you mean you have to relearn? You can't learn your Tiger Woods. And he talked about having to relearn his swing. One of the only other people I've heard talk about that, you said you had to relearn how to rap. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, language change changes technique. People get more proficient in certain techniques. Things evolve. Right. Right. So. So, like, I'll put it to you like this. If a young basketball player can be inspired by an older basketball player or a current basketball player and add some of those moves to their repertoire, right?

29:00Yeah, which is what they all do. which is what they all do, then why can't a current basketball player go to the playground or go to the videotape and see something and incorporate some of those new things into his repertoire? Arrogance and fear. There you go. There you go. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, arrogance and fear. Yeah, and see, the thing is, see, people can— you can't confuse a desire to improve with a lack of confidence. Don't conflate those two ideas. you can't conflate those two ideas you know what i mean yeah lack of design if you had to learn yeah whatever you got you said what lack of design if you had to learn yeah yeah if you gotta learn you gotta what did you say lack of desire yeah exactly exactly you gotta have that desire and you have to want to learn you know you know what i mean and so that's how i look at it like study study the craft you can go back and watch every great comedian that ever existed no reason not to you could go to a comedy club with a baseball hat low and you and your man and you could sit there and watch things that are happening you could gain an understanding of the current zeitgeist because that's a lot of it too see art people confuse see commercially successful art is about how it connects with the current zeitgeist yeah great art in general is just about what you create from the soul and put out there.

30:23I like that there's a distinction. And there's a distinction, right? So you can have something that's really, really great. It just doesn't necessarily connect with the majority of the zeitgeist at the time. That doesn't mean it's not great. Prime example, you just talked about Michael Jackson. The film allowed the music to connect with the current zeitgeist and the quality of the music took care of itself. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So that's what you're talking about. That's exactly it. Yeah. That's exactly it. I remember, this is so crazy. Sorry to cut you off. We were speaking about back in the day when you started doing television in SA, the late night show.

31:02We used to be so frustrated with how the direction of the show was going. And I remember the one thing that you once said was, don't you stress yourself that I just don't know where it's going. But there was no clue that you were going to do the Daily Show one day or host the Grammys. Oh, yeah. In the midst of that frustration, you were like, no, let's just do this thing. Don't worry about it. I just don't know where it's going. And this was years before coming to the U.S. It's funny. Yeah. Years and years. I get what you're saying. Yeah, step by step. Step by step. You know what it actually goes to?

31:29Yeah. Now that you've given me that framing, it's the software. So when I think about how I process my life, you see, like your mom and your grandmother said to you, don't do a thing unless you're going to complete it. Do it well and not at all. Do it well and not at all. But make sure that it's completed. I like to follow through on the task. the thing my mom instilled in me all the time was don't do it because somebody's watching wow that's the thing she would always say to me you know you know why that's really important because that's how consistency and discipline is built yeah because it's like do it because this is what you really want no incentive yeah yeah you gotta do it a different different action is the incentive yeah it's you it's a different incentive it's about you it's so she She would walk in and find me cleaning something.

32:19Like she would tell me to do, you know, wash the dishes, you know, clean the floor, whatever. You have your chores for the day. Wow, that's deep. And then, you know, as soon as she'd leave the room, I would just be... Right. I would be like, kid, I'm like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she would like catch me. And then I'll, you know, all of a sudden go into like, oh, mopping mode and I'm washing mode. And then she'd say to me, she'd say, Yasem Tanam, my child, she'd say, I hope that you You don't think That you should do it well Because I'm seeing you She says I want you to take pride In doing it Because you know you did it She says When you finish Washing those dishes I want you to walk past them Just every now and again Seeing them in the rack And go I washed those dishes That's right No one else She said Just for you Just go like I washed those She says When we're sitting here And the floor is clean I just want you to have That feeling of like I cleaned that floor Like I did that And as a kid Obviously you know There's the chore And I'm like whatever but but subconsciously what she kept pro programming in me was this idea of the audience if you allow the audience to define the joy that you're experiencing you will then be subject to the audience's joy oh without your experience oh yeah yeah yeah that's that's the difference between happiness and joy right like in a lot of ways sometimes happiness can is like an external thing complete joy is like inside yeah you're joyful regardless so you can be in the middle prime example you could be climbing the mountain you know trying to climb everest yeah it's painful but you're joyful because you're under duress but you're joyful you're not happy you're not happy in that moment no at all no you're joyful and so that's the thing you got and i'll tell you another thing you know you can look yourself in the eyes in the mirror you know where you're at relative to the things you want to accomplish yeah your eyes will tell you the truth.

34:06Just look in your eyes and just, you know what it is. You know your rank relative to your dreams. You know where you're at. If we're going to go up that barometer of whatever, success, or if you want that, however you look at it. When you look yourself in the eye in the mirror, you know where you're at. And that's the one that when you can kind of honestly do that and just look yourself in the mirror for a second and just say, you know. You know. You know? See, we like to act like we don't know what we are. You know what you are. You know whether you're winning. You know when you're backsliding a little.

34:45You know when you, you know. With yourself is the important thing. 100%. Yeah, not with anything external. Not when somebody's watching. Yeah. Just with yourself. Just with yourself. One-on-one, in the mirror. And sometimes the person watching is LL. No question, I'm watching. I'm like, it's hurting over there. He's under duress. I'm not set just because no one's watching. Under duress. Under duress. just crocs on with a pebble in the front, just under direct. Don't go anywhere, because we got more What Now after this. There was this phase when music was going through, like rappers were becoming executives and this and that.

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37:39What did your grandfather think about hip-hop? Because jazz musicians, like, you know, you reel these stories. What did he think about hip-hop? So, I mean, the reality is that I was so crazy, my grandfather was just happy to keep me in the house. Yeah? Yeah, because I had, you know, I was riding mini bikes and getting hit on them. My man E-Love had a mini bike. Like, I got hit on it and all this. Wait, you were one of those kids wheeling around? I wasn't wheeling. I wish I was wheeling. Okay, okay. But I was really just, you know. I see those kids in New York all the time. I'm like, I wish I was there.

38:08We didn't have a mob of them, but like my man, E-Love, he had a minibike. How did E-Love come to have a minibike? Yeah, how did he get a minibike? You know, Earl was always like a bit of a hustler. Always had a little something going on. And just he had enough to get him a minibike. And so he's riding around. And, you know, he has the string tied to the throttle. He says, yo, you know, I said, can I ride? Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead. But, you know, don't stop at the stop signs. It'll stall. Why? Great instruction. Yo, yo, yo. I love it. It's great advice. Great advice. I got an idea. Don't stop at the stop signs because the bike will stall.

38:43OK. I don't know. Yo, there's so much to unpack with that. E-Love needs to come. Let me tell you what I love here. Yo. No matter where you're from, the hood is the hood. Yo, yo. That's what I'm thinking. Check out, Scylla. This is fully, you could tell the story in South Africa, in Soweto, in a township in LA. People would be like, we know that man. Yeah, absolutely. We know that bike. We know this room. Absolutely. So I'm like, how did he come? So I'm like, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. And I hit, you know, I hit a corner. And I'm like, oh, I can't stop. And then I see a car. He said, don't stop.

39:13I see a car. So I try to turn and miss it. I'm in the bushes. I'm cool. I didn't get hurt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The bike's a little damaged. I get up, brush myself off, kind of limp home. I left his bike. Where's my bike? I go in the house. My grandmother, so a few days later, you know, the neighborhood. Everybody, oh, you got really, really. That was the story, yeah. You know, the old lady. He got hit to put the beat. You know, just the whole neighborhood is just, you know. And so finally, my grandmother, she convinced me. My grandfather being from Barbados, he didn't have a lot of money. He did not.

39:48But what he did have, he wasn't spending. Right? It's like I have$19 and I'm not spending the$19. You know, it was that kind of a deal, right? So she convinced him to get me some equipment because it would keep me in the house. So he went, he bought me two turntables and a mixer, and I was able to lean more into hip hop because he knew I loved it already. And to answer your question about how he felt about it, he was a very open-minded person. He would take me in the basement and do these reel-to-reels and had me like talking and singing on the microphone where he would play. And so he would encourage it.

40:25So I grew up, you know, listening to like, you know, all of the big band, Tommy Dorsey, Glenn Miller, you know, you know, all, just anything, Brubeck, just anything you could think of, Miles Davis, Jimmy Smith at the Penthouse Live and all this stuff. And so he was very comfortable with it. So he was, he loved music. So he was fine with me getting involved with that. So, you know, that's what it was. And I ended up, you know. And, you know, what was really crazy is I turned professional after he passed away. But before he passed away, he was in the VA hospital because he was in the Med Corps in the Army.

41:05And so he was at the VA. You know, he wasn't well in his latter years. And he used to have a radio on the counter there, you know, on the shelf near the window. on the windowsill and he would he would just say that's Todd on the radio no I promise you that's Todd and my grandmother would say Gene that's not Todd he said you don't believe me that's Todd on the radio and it was really crazy and I used to just sit there and I really believed him so I ended up naming my first album Radio oh man you know that's so beautiful yeah yeah yeah do you think it was just him believing in something it's almost like he like Eugene no but Eugene is very spiritual in that way I would say and like Eugene?

41:48Sometimes, I think, yeah. That's my grandfather's name, Eugene. Oh, that's why that threw you. Sorry. Yeah, Eugene. Yeah, yeah. Your grandfather's name's Eugene. Yeah, his name was Eugene. That's crazy. That is crazy. Yeah. Because I said Eugene's very spiritual. Then you're like, wait, what? Yeah, no, this Eugene. No, oh, damn. Okay, that's crazy. Yeah. So sometimes we'll experience things or people will experience things that we can't necessarily explain in the moment, in the time. So you're telling that story you know your grandfather listening to the radio saying that's todd that's todd and some people be like oh he was losing it it was the end it was the but but sometimes man there's this and i i fight this i won't lie he knows this he knows i fight this on at every turn right but i can't deny him and sometimes there are moments and occurrences that make me feel like there's a there's a level or or a spiritual plane that connects people to something that we can't fully understand that might be prophetic that might be even in that like my grandmother which was 96 years old the last year of her life she lived with my mom they never really had a great relationship when they're growing up tumultuous you know love and hate love and hate here and there but the final year my mom always says was the greatest gift that god could have given her wow because my grandmother had to be with you know my mom and they stayed together and so they bickered and they but she says like they got to mend everything together right and I used to watch them they were really like a comedy duo it was literally like watching a sitcom when they'd be there together and one of the days I'll never forget is I flew back home to South Africa I didn't tell anybody I was coming home and I thought I'll just surprise them you know and you know and I I phoned or I messaged my mom and I said what are you doing on saturday she was like what what now i don't talk like this to my mom so already she was like you know she's like what are you doing on saturday she's like what i don't know why i was like well what are you doing she's like what what do you mean what am i doing she said i'm i'm doing what i'm doing i'm gonna be with the animals and then i'm gonna do the garden and then i'm gonna what's happening what's wrong what are you asking me i was like no nothing i was just i just want to know what are you doing like what are you up to in your life and my mom was like what's what's what's happening what's wrong what do you want no but what's wrong it was more like what's wrong when what's happening and then she paused and she went wait are you here i was like where's here she's like hey when stop playing with me are you here are you are you in south africa i was like yeah i was gonna surprise you i'm in south africa and then she went oh tick which means oh god like she went oh tick I can't believe it said what yeah oh damn you got a good click she's like oh tick she's like you won't believe this I said what she said I've been fighting with your grandmother for the last week every day she wakes up and then randomly in the middle of the day she goes I can feel Trevor man when is Trevor coming oh wow and my mom goes he's in New York and then my grandma would go no man look at you Trevor he's here are you sure Trevor's not here are you sure he's not like and then my mom would be like he's definitely in New York he's not here and every day and then my mom because they would fight and you know you've met my mom she also says things that are so funny but like wrong if you don't know her so she says to my grand she's like clearly you're already dead no no no but she's like exactly So she's like, I saw Fee, Lowe, and I...

45:30She's like, I saw Hamby, Lowe, and she's like, you're long gone. And they're laughing about this. She's like, yo, man, you're long dead. But now she's telling me this story. She's like, yo, your grandma... She said, please get to the house. I was like, yeah, I'm coming. She's like, no, get here. She said, because you're... She said, you'll make it a surprise for her. I won't tell her. But she said, but you... Clearly, she could feel that you... And then when I got there, I walked in. My gran, like, makes a little joke with me. Like, when I walk in, she's like, oh, Trevor, is that you? I'm like, it's me.

45:56She's like, oh, am I dead? I'm like, no, you're not dead. It's me. It's me, Gogo. It's me. She's like, oh, I thought you were not here. I'm like, no, I'm here. No, we're all alive. Yeah, we start chatting. We start chatting. And then she said, oh, I knew you were here because, oh, I'm so glad you came to say goodbye. And I was like, goodbye? I came to say hello. Oh, wow. And she was like, no, yes, yes. She says, oh, but I'm glad. Oh, I'm so glad you didn't leave before saying goodbye. And I was like, I was like, is it a... I also thought the same thing my mom does. Like, oh, shame. She's fake.

46:24No. I left. And then I want to say a month after that, she passed peacefully in her sleep. She was, by the way, she wasn't sick. She wasn't struggling. She wasn't anything. She passed peacefully in her sleep. And I keep thinking, when you talk about your grandfather and that windowsill moment. Oh, yeah. Part of me goes, it felt like he was, it's like he was seeing something that didn't exist yet. Because maybe he was moving on to it in a way. There's no question about it, man. It's powerful. I'm a big believer in... First of all, I have supreme faith in God, but I'm also a believer in... I think people pray to God and I think intuition is God speaking to you.

47:10Yeah. You know what I mean? And I follow that. You know, I always follow my intuitive lead. So, you know, you going, your grandmother kind of feeling that and kind of that that's all real. We're all you know, it's interesting. We're all kind of interconnected in some sort of kind of solar system thing. Like prime example, just, you know, me and you, Grammys conference here. Like if you think about it, like there are certain people in your life that you just, for some reason, they become part of your solar system, right? Like they become, like you, you know, and now mind you, some planets are farther away and they take longer to swing back around.

47:48But ultimately you pass, you know, so I just, I just, you know, I think what you're saying is real. I believe in it. I don't, I don't doubt it. You know what I'm saying? I don't, you know, I think, you know, it's funny, especially in the internet age, but, you know, being cynical can sound intelligent, but it's really like cowardice. Because you're afraid to like see the possibilities in a situation. It's so easy to be cynical. Yeah. It's very, it's a much safer, it's cheap. It's safe. Yeah. You know? it's safe to just no cynicism i'm cynical no because you know even a broken clock is right twice a day right garbage can't get a steak once in a while so every now and then you get proven to be right and then you think your cynicism or you being cynical is the way to go yes you know what i mean yeah i just i don't i don't like living my life like that yeah i think what happens with people is we will talk about this in different ways but it's also it's it's it's safe because it's externally safe but it's not internally safe oh without a doubt because what what you're doing is you're just saying out loud i knew that life would let me down there you go but by saying that it's let you down it means that you did have an expectation yes wow does that make sense yes you came down from somewhere yeah and and people don't realize they're doing that oftentimes when they're being like cynical about everything i don't i don't think you have to believe that everything will go or won't go but i'm saying like it's interesting that you think that everything will go wrong and i'm like but just by the fact that you're saying it's wrong means that there was a right and you're not admitting that it has let you down does this make sense absolutely as opposed so i've met like monks for instance who they have a not even an opposite view a neutral view they just go it just will be right that would be that would be like the view that i would say that oh if you if you just believe the world is, then it'll just be.

49:49It's interesting that you're, it's all going to go wrong. It's all going to go to shit. It's never going to work. Then it's like, oh, you're trying to protect yourself from life letting you down because it has before. That's right. And you also got to have the emotional endurance to handle it, right? Because like - Ah, yeah, that's a big one. Things get better. Like, you know, thousands of years ago, there was an ice age, but summer was coming. Remember the thing I told you the monk said to me? One of the greatest lines That has affected my entire life Simplest thing ever I asked a monk in Bhutan I said to him Give me one Just one nugget That's hard to apply But easy to understand And he said Life Is going to be full of storms A happy life Is knowing when you are between storms Yeah Yeah Yeah, that's deep.

50:45Yeah, yeah. That one, that one like - Just know when you're in between. Yo, let me tell you something. You know where you see it in real life? You talk about watching people. Whenever it's raining, I love to see which people keep their umbrellas up after the rain has stopped. I'm always fascinated by them. The just-in-casers? Or even the ones who haven't noticed that it stopped raining. Oh, oh, clueless. Wow. They put the umbrella up. It's raining It's raining And the rain stops And they keep the umbrella up Yeah but that's how That's defense mechanisms right People do that in general But I'm saying imagine if you live like that in your life Yeah exactly A storm comes It is a real storm You've lost loved ones You've suffered abuse You've been swindled of your money You've been fired Whatever the things are They are real They're 100 % real It is a storm But then when the storm is not happening You can still live in that storm and it's like what happened stole my money when was it 20 years ago you know your uncle stole that money from yeah but i'm not saying that didn't happen but are you still living in that storm yeah they let their past hold their future hostage oh you know i'm saying it's like you know it's funny you know the one that the nugget that i always think is great is um you know there's two pieces to it first of all just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy Yeah.

52:07Right. You just alluded to that. Yeah. And then the other part is it's friction. Right. And friction makes it makes easy things difficult and it makes difficult things seem impossible. And if you understand that there's always going to be friction, you'll be comfortable no matter what's going on. You feel me? Because it makes easy things difficult. Yes. And it makes difficult things seem impossible. Right. So if you understand that there's friction, you'll be able to deal with it and say, oh, this is just friction. Yeah. I think the reason we don't have that in life is because we don't, most of the time, we don't afford each other the friction or the story of the friction.

52:53Wow. Does that make sense? So let's say the Grammys, we see the person on stage. Yeah, they give us a 30-second speech of overcoming everything. and they tell us about, you know, how hard it was, how beautiful. People give them an applause, but it's 30 seconds. It's a lot less time than we've spent listening to the album and enjoying your success and seeing you, you know, with millions of followers. Do you get what I'm saying? I do, I do, I do, I do. So how do I buy that thing from you now? I can hear it as a story, as a story, but I have not experienced it. I have not seen it. I have not, you know how many people I've even seen online on social media do this where they'll post and their post will always talk about their life in hindsight like now it's a beautiful picture of them in a relationship them traveling them living their lives and then they'll go a year ago i was a sad burdened version of myself i was then i'm like okay i don't mind that you're doing that i mind i definitely mind you know why we talk about you being sad a year ago man yeah but you're bringing the sadness back but my problem is they're not showing it that they're they're like the the the the happiness is the permanent highlight reel yeah the sadness is just like a glimpse i was sad i'm oh yeah yeah does that make sense yeah it does it does and then it makes you feel like your sadness is lasting way longer than it should because theirs is already gone i don't know i don't know if i'm articulating this I think you are.

54:23Do you know what I mean? I think, you know, there's a lot to unpack there, though, right? Because the reality is that, you know, some things aren't for the internet. Oh, damn. Right? Like, some things that people go through in life, they need to just keep that in their kitchen or in their dining room or whatever is going on. They need to keep that home. And I think people forget that sometimes. Yeah, I think a lot of people forget that. It's, like, crazy to me. It's like, you know, and no disrespect, because I know the majority of people watching this, you know, before they eat, I'm like, yo, can we just eat this food, man?

54:58Do I need to do a photo session with my filet before we, yo, can we get to this? Like, what are we doing right now? I thought it's a filet. Yo, can we eat this? Yo, let's eat this. She's like, it's a filet. It's a filet. Come on. You know? But it's a filet. It's a filet. Come on. I got to take a photo. It's a filet You're hilarious You know I love it when When I learn something new Especially about spirituality And about how things are I don't believe there's coincidences I believe that Things will happen as they may Or as they should And you're just there To catch the wave When it happens It's like radio waves Are flying around If you have an antenna You will catch the station 100 % Frequencies That's happening with or without you That was the name of the album Right?

55:42Force No way It was frequencies Of real creative energy And that was the whole idea Of just catching those frequencies That's what the force stands for frequencies of real creative energy and so it's exactly what you just said yeah those when those signals come by you're just reaching out and just grabbing them you know what i mean that was the whole thought that's that's what you see how how is it you know you just made me realize something you are the most conscious but yet seemingly unconscious rapper no and i mean this hopefully like i hope you take it as a compliment because i mean it as one it's like you know in our heads when we go like oh the conscious rapper yeah in someone in someone's minds it's like a certain way of dressing a certain way of being a certain way of and then when you and then when you think of chains and you think of like the diamond earrings and you think of a different way of being and a different you you you literally broke every single mold and you continue to break every single mold because i think of you and i go every single album had a title and a meaning behind it that could only be described as conscious yeah right your music had everything that people can associate with hip-hop in a stereotypical way braggadocious and out there and aspirational and hopeful good times good times or the hope of good times or the you know what i mean the celebration of the times that are good because they're not always and then one of the biggest ones that i still i can't think of it not existing because in my head it's always existed you're like the first and only rapper to think of women as an active audience who are human beings and not just an object or a subject oh yeah oh yeah hard way yeah but but but like how did you let's go through all of those elements so okay where do you think the brain side you know the brainiac side of your world was developed But who nourished that?

57:38Who encouraged that in your family? So I grew up, you know, with a family. Like, first of all, my house was full of books. But on top of it being full of books, my aunts were teachers and social work, like all kinds of different. Like, so there was a big emphasis on not necessarily formal education, but learning in general. there was just this there was just an unsaid thing that we're gonna learn something like my grandfather back then there was no internet right so they had this thing called the world book of knowledge i remember those you remember the world and i would get so my grandfather would get those every year and i would be reading them and you know like that was so my life was i was curious right and i'm that was like how we lived so that part of it but here's the funny thing with me is like, I was like, you know, when I was in school, so I didn't stay long, but when I was in school, I was in classes for advanced kids, but I had terrible behavior.

58:42Were you bored easily? Absolutely. Yeah. That makes sense. You know, like, yeah, you know, like, you know, they're talking about, see, just, just to go aside for one second. I think a lot of the problems with schools in general is that they don't teach everyday kids how what they're teaching correlates with their real life and how it can be applied in real life they expect you to just know that yeah yeah dead president well you know what i mean who's in teaching us it's true you know so when they're you know talking to me about stuff and then i'm looking out the window i'm just like, yo, what are you talking about?

59:24Yeah. You know? And then, you know, in America, you know, like, there's that moment, you know, for kids of color, you know, black kids or, you know, you're sitting there in class and all of a sudden they start talking about the 19th century in this country and they start bringing up some of the atrocities that took place. and all of a sudden there's this weird kind of rush of embarrassment that goes over you that no one talks about.

1:00:00Because even if you're in a school that's all black or if you're in a school that's mixed, depending on whatever the makeup is, no matter what, there's a certain amount of shame associated with being perceived to be too weak to overcome that. Yeah. Right? So it's kind of, so when you're in school, it's kind of like, okay. It just felt to me like, I felt like someone was trying to teach me how to be like everybody else and be obedient. That's what school is though. Yeah. And I don't say this enough. An institution. Yeah, but I also don't say this enough. It's in a bad way and in a good way. It's just in the way it is.

1:00:44school is designed for the average if you're an outlier in any way school school is not necessarily designed for you and unfortunately we haven't found a way that it can be because it it's mass education it's such a difficult thing to do so everyone who falls within its constraints and confines will do well yeah if you are slightly ahead of it slightly behind it it's over for you it's it's just gonna it's it's not gonna be made for you yeah do you get what i'm saying absolutely Absolutely. And so, so that's where, so I just, I just got excited about learning around the house and seeing all of these books and seeing all of this information and staring at my grandfather's tenor saxophone and seeing that and seeing pictures of him young with his wavy hair and he's with his band and he's, you know, he's cool and he's, you know, he's got these curls and he's, you know, he's like the, Swaggering.

1:01:37Swaggering and all that, you know, it was amazing. So that's where that came from. And then, you know, the creative part you know my mother wrote poetry and was you know played the accordion and this is beautiful okay no no all the pieces are coming together you know i'm saying so it was like a real interesting world that i so then okay now then let's talk about the lady side of it you know because the name ladies love cool james that was just wishful thinking man i just wanted him to love me bro i told you yeah you knew that right you knew that you knew that you knew that right I'm kidding. Yeah, yeah, yo.

1:02:12Can I tell you? Yeah. You say that, but I would argue looking at your life, everything of yours has been wishful thinking, but it's applied thinking as well. Oh, I wanted it for sure. You see, that's the difference though. You didn't just want it, you went for it. Oh, 100%. That's what I mean. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But you know, like the ladies love thing was really simple. I had my friend, my man, Playboy Mikey D, and it was like my man, Red Hot Lover This and Lover Boy This and all these different. And so I was like, you know, and he was like, yo. And I was like, you should be the ladies love or something.

1:02:51I'm like, yeah, I like that. I'm going to be the ladies love. So it's like, I'm the ladies love. He's Playboy. This one's this one. And we kind of just all that vibe. But then. It was Ruben who shortened it, right? It was Ruben, yeah. Because he didn't think it would fit on a label. You know what I mean? Not wrong. you know and i was like whatever yo you can call me get your glass of water cool jay i just want a record on me so whatever you want to do let's do it you know yeah and um but when you when you when you created uh when you released the song um i need love yeah that that flew in the face of everything that hip-hop was at the time the idea of hip-hop the because because it flipped you know if we if we think of and i the reason i think it's so pertinent today as well is because masculinity goes through these waves in in society into the zeitgeist as we talk about it where people constantly try and confine or define masculinity as one as one simple idea one flat idea a man must be like this a man do like this we're seeing that again now in internet culture there's like a strong surge yeah like in the man and i think some of it is like some people just say that as like a hateful thing of like men hanging out so there's part of it where i go it's just men hanging out there's nothing wrong with that yes but then there's part of it where that's not part of the manosphere and i resent the fact that you said it because i play

1:04:22so you know you know the the other part of it is this it's it's the fact that it's the fact that you have men who are only encouraging one side of being a man. I think a lot of what they say is great. Yeah. You know, be self-sufficient, be strong, go work out. Be healthy. Do this thing, believe in yourself, push hard, be competitive. It's great. But I see very few of them saying like, hey, be vulnerable, be honest, be needy, be what, you know what I mean? Like find the things that you are also and not just one side of. So let me, let me. When you put out that song, I need love. Yeah. Come on, that was a valid.

1:04:58Well, here's the thing, here's the thing, though, right? So let's look at it from that standpoint of, like, everybody on the internet, men and different things, what you call it, the sphere? Men's sphere. Okay, let's call it that, right? Let's think about all that. The bottom line is this.

1:05:17If being fearless and courageous is the manly thing, let's say, right? Yeah. then saying I need love in front of a bunch of men who are afraid to say I need love and you're not afraid to say it is the most fearless and courageous thing, right? You know? Because, like, my thing was I could say I need love because I'm not scared of you. It's not, you know, it's the exact opposite. It's not like I need love, not go hide in the corner. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm still going to make I'm bad and mama's to knock you out and all these things, but I can make I need love because I believe I need love.

1:05:57Like, that was what I was inspired to say. And I think the most authentic thing is to just be who you are and say what you feel for real. See, the problem is when men run into problems when they start looking to a female, looking to a relationship for personal validation and to justify their actions. That's when they get in trouble, right? It's not a, I need love is not the issue. The issue is, can you need love and still have dignity? or are you going to turn into just an absolute meatball and just be like stalking someone? Can you need love and still maintain your character? Can you need love but still not, you know, turn into a pile of, lose yourself?

1:06:47You see what I'm saying? That's the difference. And so to me, it's like, I don't think there's anything wrong with masculinity. Like I'm very comfortable with masculinity. I'm very comfortable as a man. I'm also very comfortable saying whatever it is I feel. Because that's the most manly thing. That's what I'm saying. You see what I'm saying? That's exactly what I'm saying. And that, you know, like, you know, if I want to hug my son, I'm going to hug my son. I'm not going to be afraid to hug my son. Right. But I'm also not going to, you know, come home and cry on my son's shoulder either. Unless there was a situation where I was forced to do that.

1:07:24Then I would do that. Right, right, right, right. Right? Yeah. So I think that's the, so I think a lot of the problems, see, I think a lot of times, now we're talking about, especially when you get into younger guys and young boys and like, they, you got to build who you are from the inside out, man. Yeah. Because ultimately people are going to see through whatever it is you're trying to, whatever that facade is, people are going to see through that. At some point it cracks. You got to build from the inside out. So if you're a man, you know, we're going to know. And it's not going to be because of your clothes.

1:08:00It's not going to be because of your pose. It's going to be because of your character. And it's going to be because of how you deal with people. Do you keep your word? When you tell somebody you're going to do it, you know, like if I tell you I'm coming to the podcast, am I going to show up? It's like, do you keep your word? Do you do what you say you're going to do? that's manhood. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You, you protect your family. Yeah. You protect yourself. Yeah. You defend the honor of those around you. Yes. You, you make sure you look out for those who are deserving of that in terms of like, like, like when you're talking about your circle, you look out for those who, whose actions merit being looked out for.

1:08:44You don't let people manipulate you or make you feel guilty for your own success. Right. Like these are things that you got to be prepared for. You know what I mean? You help those, if they want to travel, you help them travel, but they got to be willing to pack their bags and... Mm-hmm. They got to be willing to pack their bags. Right? And so that's the way I think about it. So when I do songs like I Need Love or when I do any of my music, I don't feel like there are any rules to what we do. The question is, is it true to you? Now, because some things are imagination. Sometimes it's imagination.

1:09:21You know, when Marlon Brando's in The Godfather, you know, he's using his imagination. Sometimes we create art through imagination. It's not always reality. You know, it can resemble reality, but it's imagination. So it might be a song and I've never experienced that, but it's something I imagined or was people watching and saw it and got inspired. Right. So that's okay too. but in terms of your life as a man it's like manhood is about just standing on your word and and doing what you like one of the songs on the fourth album i said always keep your word always pay them back like i meant that you know like like when you deal with people you keep your word you pay people back yeah yeah yeah like that matters that's that that's the stuff to me Is that why you've spent so much time and effort in this era of your career?

1:10:15Again, subverting the expectations. Hip-hop for a long time, for many people, has been about, I'm better than you. I'm going to conquer you. I'm going to defeat you. I've got more than you. But in a good way as well. It was a challenge. Battle rap. You know what I mean? It's like you and cannabis, for instance. When I think of some of the great defining moments in hip-hop. and then now I feel like your legacy has switched to I'm gonna remember you like it's almost like you've become one of the custodians of hip hop to say no hey all these greats we need to remember that they existed we remember that they're still here we need to remember what they did to the game what they gave to the game like where did that when did that shift happen what made you think I need to make sure that every single hip hop artist that deserves to be remembered gets remembered otherwise they will be forgotten so Rock the Bells is the company that I do that with.

1:11:06And where it came from is that I saw the shift where hip-hop became more about... And mind you, this is coming from the guy who's like the commercial king, right? Like, you know, in terms of being a commercial rapper. Right? Like, I'm one of the first guys, like, a commercial rapper, not just underground, right? So, but what I noticed is that... You wanted the first crossover hip-hop artist. But what I noticed is that it became more about what people have acquired than what they contributed oh that's interesting right so your value like i've never ever heard anybody even speculate or wonder about bob marley's bank account i've never heard anybody use that as a way a metric for how successful he was for his impact.

1:12:02Ever. Have you seen that interview? It's funny that you say that. There's a clip of an old interview of his that I saw a few months ago. Oh, that British interview. Yeah, the British interviewer who asked him, he says, Mr. Bob Marley, you've done quite well for yourself. And you've really, you've been sung, people sing your songs all over the world. You've done, you must have a lot of money. And then he's like, are you rich? He says something like that. And then like Bob Marley replies, yeah, and it's the most beautiful response ever. I'll butcher it if I even try and say it. But he basically goes like, he's like, he's like what do you mean by rich he's like rich is the money in my bank account or rich he says yo man my experiences my people my country what i'm doing what i'm experiencing he's like yo your rich is not my rich it's so interesting that you just said that yeah and and so and and see my thing is this look don't take this wrong i like to make money i want everybody i'd like all the artists to have money but that's being able to capitalize and monetize a situation like the Wright brothers did not get rich from airplanes.

1:12:59Yeah. Like being able to monetize something is a whole nother skill set. It's a different game. My thing, and there's nothing wrong with it. Don't, I am clear. I don't want anybody to get it confused. I want people to make money. I understand how important it is for our lives. I come from a background. We didn't have a lot. I understand the importance. However, we still have to remember that there are great artists who made great contributions to society It doesn't matter how much Melly Mel and Flash And them made off of the message As a song It matters from a business standpoint Of course it matters I think they should get every dime from their record That they were supposed to get Of course That being said How that impacted society Should not be measured By what they have in the bank We have become a society that has Singular measures of success now if we're honest about that exactly you know like like forbes for instance i mean they do what they do but it is it's always been interesting to me that forbes really just focuses on people's net worth and not like for instance like net contributions or net value created or net do you get what i'm saying yeah yeah like how much how much you know how much money did nelson mandela how much is his estate yeah okay this man yeah versus his yeah what he did for the world the example that he set for the world yeah okay he didn't have two billion three billion okay and so you know i think there's nothing wrong with the money don't get me wrong there's a lot of great people who make a lot of money and i applaud them and i love that for them i really do and i make money.

1:14:45I really enjoy it. But I do, no doubt, no question. But Mandela, Martin Luther King still meant something. He still accomplished something and touched the wall. Gandhi still did something when he marched to the sea and did the salt march. That still meant something, regardless of... You see what I'm saying? No, I completely get you. I completely get you. I'm just saying, let's just keep it all in perspective. See, people will go to the extreme and just hate billionaires. I think that's the wrong approach because that's an extreme too because most of the people will say they hate billionaires but want to be one.

1:15:22It's not many. There's some. There's not many people who would say, I don't want to be a billionaire. You know, you got a couple that'll say, okay, I'll take 999 million. You know what I mean? But it's not many. You know what I mean? That's me. You know what I mean? That's you, Eugene. That's Eugene. I knew it was Eugene. I knew it. I could see you. I get to It's them bracelets Tell me you got it in you Just don't want off I'm subtle I don't want to be greedy I don't want to be greedy Just give me $999 ,999 ,999 You take the one And buy something nice Get something nice You know Get something nice for yourself Go over there Get your I like that you say that Because That speaks to the complexity Of everything right Is like We literally had this conversation The other day I said I think this is the most quiet I've been ever in an interview.

1:16:12In a hang. I've never been this quiet. I feel like you're recapping our conversations and I'm learning something new. It's just amazing. Carry on. No, so we literally had this conversation. We were talking about the billionaire thing the other day. Yep. And I was saying to Eugene, I said, you know, I really, really do wish that we lived in less of a flattened world. And I do believe, it's not the only reason, but I do believe social media has rewarded flattening. because it's an easier message to get across quickly. And so, you know, it's much faster than nuance, right? We've even seen it online.

1:16:45A clip will travel way further than an interview, right? Clips are way more powerful, right? Absolutely. Clip forming. That's exactly, that's what society has become. But I go like, if you really think of it, you go like, no, I don't think you hate a billionaire. You hate it in relation to yourself. Do you get what I'm saying? Absolutely. So my issue is not a billionaire. My issue is the fact that a billionaire is still living in the same society as somebody who can work two jobs and still be homeless. That's where I go. And I also go, it's not the billionaire's fault. I go, yo, you're also part of the system.

1:17:21You're participating in the system. So let's fix the system. I see you talk about things like that all the time. Just like the way you think about AI, the way you think about the world we're living in. You pull out of a concert because the workers were striking. I think this was in Philadelphia. and I remember you pulled out and you said, yo, I can't go there and cross a picket line to make money when these people on the ground are not going to get the money that they're supposed to get. To me, that was a moment where I was like, damn. Let me tell you something, man. My grandfather shined shoes.

1:17:51My grandfather shined shoes. My grandfather was a baggage handler. He worked his way, but then he worked at the post office. Then he went back to school to study engineering to try to get better in his life. Like, like at the end of the day, what people should really look at, I think the question you should ask, or at least one good question is, am I maximizing my own personal potential? Yeah. That's really the question, a good, one good question to ask. Am I maximizing my personal potential in life? Because if, if you're, let's go back to climbing Mount Everest. If your goal has always been to climb Mount Everest and every day you're doing the training, you're going in the altitude rooms, you're doing your rock climbing exercises, you're going through all your process, you're learning all about the equipment, the weather, all of that.

1:18:48All of that, right? When you walk into a room with a billionaire, you will not feel less than. Yeah. Yeah. I've met, like, even when we go to the conferences, we meet all kinds of adventurers and guys that have went all over the world and do deep sea diving and take pictures on top of. And it's like you find out that there are lots of ways for human beings to be fulfilled. Yeah. But society, for some reason, has decided that there's only one way for you to be complete and full. But what we never seem to care about or ask about is, or at least consider, is what does that person want out of their life?

1:19:32Like, I remember a long time ago, you know, there was this phase when music was going through, like, rappers were becoming executives and this and that. And it was this big debate that people had about me about, you know, why isn't he, you know, the president of the company? Why isn't he going to be the president? Like, it's like in the deepest recesses of my soul, I had no desire to do that, man. Just because this person wants to do that. I love you so much for saying that. Yo, it's like. Are you familiar with the Peter Principle? No, tell me the Peter Principle. I've heard that term. The Peter Principle is a term that refers to, it's something that I find is most apparent in America, but it's all over the world.

1:20:18But it's really apparent in America. it is the concept of promoting people to the point of failure oh you just you just keep like you rise to the level of your incompetence yeah but it's like but they also put you there and it's like because society is constantly so you go man you're an amazing yo ll you're an amazing rapper you're a phenomenal artist you you create you you yo you should run a company why don't you run a company like yo i'm doing this i'm doing well yeah i'm enjoying myself you should run a company i'm doing this i'm enjoying myself i'm doing you should run a And then you run a company.

1:20:49You don't like running a company. You have no aptitude for running a company because you don't have the will to run a company. And then the company doesn't do well. Then they're like, man, he was trash at running that company. Then you're like, but he never wanted to run it in the first place. And we do this in every aspect. It's crazy how that principle applies in society. Companies do this all the time. They will take somebody who is, I mean, absolutely the best at sales or something. They crush it. They crush it. They crush it. They'll make them a manager. Then you're like, why did you make them a manager?

1:21:19Well, they were the best in sales, so we made them the manager. Yeah, but do you know if they were a good manager, though? Managing people is different to selling. Why not just keep them going up the ladder and say, well, there's a limit. I'm like, yeah, but you created that limit. It's an artificial limit that you created. And now what you've done is you promote this person to manager. You say they're not a good manager. And then you know what they do? They fire you. They don't even keep you as a salesperson. But you know what's the piece of that? The thing that you are good at. They fire you and you go, but I was a salesperson.

1:21:50I was the best. Yeah. But you know the one thing in this, you got to know how to say no. That's hard. Yeah, because when you say no, then they debate. That's hard. And that's what you're talking about. 100%. You got to know how to. I don't want to be the president of that. Now, I'll start. Excuse me. I'll do Rock the Bells because I'm passionate about that. And you want to. And I wanted to Rock the Bells. There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have the channel on SiriusXM and we have all the stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I want to do that, though. I didn't want to do that other thing. right it's like that's the the stuff that we we gotta you gotta that's why you gotta be able to say no that's like in the midst of it now in terms of what you just said i always think about how people rise to the level of their incompetence and then you have to stay curious and increase your skill in order to level up again oh yeah that's hard though that's terrifying in fact yeah but that's the that's the difference though right that's the sec that's the that's the 12th rep when you're on the bench.

1:22:46You know? I told you you must count. You know? You know? I told you. I told you. You know, I've come to realize I told you can work on it. It really can. It really can. I told you. I've been telling you. I've been telling you. How do I say I told you in your home dialect? Oh, in the best way. N 'ig. N 'ig. N 'ig. N 'ig. So go N 'ig. Think of it like that. Oh, N 'ig. N 'ig. Yeah, N 'ig. N 'ig. N 'ig. N 'ig. Chalile. Chalile. Yeah, that's it. Chalile. That's it. Chalile. Chalile. I'm Chalile. Chalile. Trevor yesterday was like, you know what, guys? When you're working out and you know you're doing...

1:23:26Don't count, man. I'm going to say don't count. I'm going to say don't count. Don't do that to me. Trevor, can I tell my story? Yo. Okay, do it. And then I will reply. Is it okay if I tell my story? Lie and then I will respond. What a setup. That's like a pita. No, please, please go ahead. Trevor's like, guys, guys, You guys are getting it wrong, guys. You know what I find? When people are working out, just know when you're working out. Just do it until you feel that it's happening. Just know. Because this thing of counting, guys, people are counting. I've done this so many times. Just leave it.

1:23:59Just have a good time, man, you know? And I said, isn't it better if you know how many reps you've done? I was like, Eugene, just the thing with you, man. You're just keeping score. Just work, man. You'll know when you're done and your muscles are safe. you'll just know it. He wouldn't say that when the bills is coming in though. Let's pause. You know what I love about how you painted this false scenario? Let's start with this. Just judging from that story. Why are you saying about poor failure? From that story, where do you think this conversation was taking place? Where does it sound like it was taking place?

1:24:28Sounds like you're in the gym. You see? You see how you lie about me? No, it was here. Guy was here busy pumping. No. So the context is important. The context is important. What I was saying was... Your phone is ringing. Is someone calling you? What's that, the truth? So, no, what I was saying was... Yeah.

1:24:51What I was saying was, it is not only the number that defines whether or not you have lifted, right? The number is just something that you are using to help you get to a certain point. That's true. But the truth is, it's the fatigue and the muscle that's defining the growth. So if you fixate too much on the number, you can stay in a place forever because you're not actually asking the question, is my muscle fatigued or not? That's absolutely correct. That is absolutely correct. You know why? This is what I was saying. You have to fool your body. Yeah, but you... You chalile. You chalile. Yeah!

1:25:25You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

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1:28:01You're right. When you look back at your life, you must have had some of the most surreal moments you've had. Just when you look back and go, I can't believe that happened to me. Do you remember a room where you walked into where you went, I can't believe this was happening? Yo, the one that always pops in my head, and I've said it before, it's funny. I saw Muhammad Ali slap boxing Barry Gordy while Diana Ross was in the corner going, oh, Barry, oh, Barry. And I'm just sitting there, yo, this is wild right now. I said, I can't even believe what I'm witnessing right now. But how about I leave? Barry Courtney is boxing, slap boxing.

1:28:36Diana Ross, yo, it was crazy. Crazy. I walk in, you know, I would walk in Quincy Jones' house and Marlon Brando would be sitting there, you know. It was crazy, man. I've seen some, yeah, it's crazy, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's like famous. I know people use the term fame. Yeah. But like there was a time when it was almost like Olympus and the Gods Yes Oh yeah Where there was this Space in the clouds Where they existed It can't exist again Yeah People were inaccessible There's no social media You were in that Is it true That Michael Jackson Told you that He was inspired By your bad To make his bad Yeah well He didn't say that But you know That was the vibe That was the vibe That we got From Quincy Jones Yeah Because Michael Was notorious for Being inspired Like you said He would look at the world I went to the studio With him and all that Like it was yeah we had a ball do you still have those tracks by the way no they're somewhere floating around there in his thing I mean honestly they weren't they weren't our best but I think we were getting our footing and you know just kind of creating I mean that's still someone has to find because you see this is something I think of as well you know going back to talk about like art and the artist there's the best fine our best work we judge ourselves maybe someone else judge whatever it might be but then there are also moments in history it's like the pen that the declaration of independence was written on imagine imagine if there was a draft of the declaration of independence and you're like where is it like i don't know man it wasn't our best yeah but but that yeah that is sometimes more interesting yeah and more important to preserve than the thing that exists because it's like we know the thing that exists hanging out with mike was a lot of fun man you know we'd you You know, we'd be on a plane.

1:30:23It'll be me, Quincy Jones, Michael Jackson, you know, Michael Milken. You know, we on a jet and we talking and vibing and I'm just listening. How old were you when you met him? Man. Well, the first time I met Mike, I might have been 18, 19. I don't know. Some real young. How big was he at that stage? Huge. Like, this is like after Thriller. Damn. I mean, he was, it was Olympus. Yeah, no, okay, okay. It was Olympus. So now you're in Olympus right now. Absolutely, absolutely. Because, you know, and then we dropped the Bad Albums right together. And, you know, just off to the races. Yo, it was crazy.

1:31:08It was crazy. And, you know, Mike was so, he was a really good guy. I remember going to come in the studio. Sorry, I'm late. There was traffic. I'm just sitting there like, yo, traffic, Michael Jackson. What was he in traffic? Like all this crazy, you know? You know what I'm saying? I'm just like, it was crazy, man. What was he like to work with in the studio? Very meticulous. Really, really, just really smart. And he liked to vibe. He liked to vibe and kind of kick it, you know, talk about music. He was just a really interesting character. Tell you stories, tell you crazy stories and all that about.

1:31:46Because I've heard some people say, I remember talking to Quincy once about this, and he said, Michael, like, in a weird way, didn't take himself too seriously when he was with people he trusted. Definitely didn't. He definitely didn't. Like, he knew there was a gag sometimes that the public didn't know about, but he was playing into it. Man, yo, this is crazy. I remember, yo, I was so crazy, man. I remember sitting there, man. I'm like, we sitting there, like, it was kind of like his office. It was in the studio. And I'm like, yo, I don't know what made me say this. Like, we sitting there talking just like this.

1:32:16I'm like, yo, Mike, man, I got a fart, man. He said, what? I said, I got a fart. He said, what? I said, I have to fart. He said, well, go ahead, man. I went, uh. He went, ah!

1:32:33Right? Then he got on the phone. My man, Mike, got on the phone. We was talking about ice cream. He got on the phone. He said, yeah. Oh, you want ice cream? I said, yeah, it's because I drink. It's on the phone. it's like whoever it was he was like hey hey guess what ll did and they were like he said guess what he did they said what he said he ordered ice cream

1:32:57yo he was a fuck yo he was he knew what he was doing yo mike was the wild out he was cool man mike was a good dude man he was not you know he was a good guy he really was he really was i really was this is this is what i think of oftentimes like perspective in all of these situation no because you you you you're living in a world where you know you hear like that that that's a clip farming that's a clip farming right there that's crazy i think of like the moments memory actually yeah that's what that's what i'm talking about yeah the same way you're preserving the artists yeah the same way you preserve the memories the moments the the human behind these things yeah do you do you get what i'm saying jones like yeah man jones he He would invite me over, man, and sit there and talk to me about music and life.

1:33:42I mean, you know, he was like James Bond to me. You know, there's a certain people. He had that vibe. You know, I got, you know. He had that vibe. We shared the same birthday. So he reached out to me because of that. That was the strangest thing, one of the strangest things in my life. Hey, man. Quincy Jones just called me, and then he was like, it's not the same birthday. He called me, and he's like, he says, I heard you're Pisces, young man. I was like, I'm sorry, what's happening? Yeah, it's Quincy Jones. Then you're like, okay, it must be because I can't think of any of my friends who can do a Quincy Jones impersonation.

1:34:12You never met me, young man. And he was just like, I heard you're Pisces, young man. When are you coming to say hi? That was a good Quincy, actually. And then he would just like, he would nurture you. He wanted to tell you, like, just like what you can do, how you can grow, how you can. And he just shared, by the way. He didn't even have that, let me school you feeling. No, no, no, no. It didn't come from that place. It didn't come from like some kind of condescending. No, never. Never. He would, you know, I'd do a lunch with him, you know, a few times a year, like maybe twice a year. You know, I'd go over there and just eat lunch with him and just talk with him.

1:34:45And he just talked to me about history, talked to me about music, talked to me about, you know, you know, like he introduced me to Frank Sinatra. You know what I'm saying? When Frank was on his final leg of his run in Vegas. He took me to the show, you know, introduced me to Frank Sinatra. Like it's like a lot of different, you know, the people I met. He was a really special man. You know what I'm saying? He was a special, special guy. He was a really... He was... One of a kind. Oh, man. He was one of a kind, man. He truly was. Yeah, yeah. You just made me realize something that's also unique for your situation.

1:35:19There are many hip-hop artists who could look up to another hip-hop artist, but in many ways, not denying the ones who came before you, there wasn't like a long-standing legacy that you could look to in that way because it was a fledgling idea. Yeah. But you know what? I did, man. Who are your mentors in life? Who are the people you can remember? So Quincy's one of them, you know, but who are the people you remember? Giving me advice? And not just giving you advice, pushing you down a path that you otherwise wouldn't have gone down. Well, man, I tell you, there were a lot of people that I bumped into that were good.

1:35:52Obviously, Quincy Jones, Lionel Richie was always very kind and gave me insights. But then there was... Rap artists who are a bit older who kind of just would tell me what not to do while they were doing it. I had a few of those. That can sometimes be the most valuable thing. You know, they'd be like, nah, the same for you, Al. And saved my life. I've had, you know, road managers. There was a time when really early in my career where for about a string of maybe, I don't know, maybe four shows. right before the show i'd be like yo let me just get a little champagne and you know i and i because i had the nerve i used to go to the bathroom and all y 'all give me some champagne and then i remember the one that was like the fifth show my role manager my man tony rome he just you know i was like i had the bottle and i'm like getting about and he came and grabbed the bottle out of my hand he said no he saw where it was going yeah it's not for you he snatched a bottle out my hand and that you know because that dependency that's where it was going and he yeah so a lot of it is man it's you know the man upstairs it's lucky there's a lot of luck in this thing a lot of chance a lot of luck i think we put up we put more emphasis on intellect We over-rotate on intellect and underweight luck and chance and blessings.

1:37:27I got lucky with a lot of stuff, right? Is that why you're so strong in your faith? Absolutely. Absolutely, because I know that it didn't have to be this way. I could have been a lot of things. I could have been, I could have went to the Marines because I wanted to be a general, or I could have been like one of the most notorious menaces to society that's ever existed. Huh. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, it's a good thing that it went this way. Right, right, right. Like, because it could have been, you know, I mean, think about, by the grace of God, you look at my career, imagine if I put the energy in the other way.

1:38:12Yeah. The world would not be, you know, at least New York would have been a very different place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We take that for granted. You know what I mean? So it's kind of like that show, It's a Wonderful Life, the movie. It's a wonderful life, you know. One man can make a huge difference. You know what I mean? One man can make a huge difference. So, yeah. I have a lot of faith in God because I know what it's like when bullets whiz by and you're hiding behind a snowmound like an idiot. You're hiding behind a snow mound. From a bullet. From bullets. Like ducking behind a snow mound and the dudes in the car, you know, like that kind of.

1:38:56So I know, you know. Damn. And being in, you know, hanging out with guys and they're, you know, dropping nine millimeters on purpose just to see how you react, you know, loaded gun. Just to see, you know, where we at with it. You know what I mean? So it's like having all of that exposure too has made, and that's the other thing about my music and my career. Because I was exposed to so much street stuff, fly on the wall, but still exposed to so much street activity. I try to make music that got people like Bro because you know It's like you know because from day one I mean the things I've seen have been crazy Yeah You know And you've seen them in a real way I think sometimes what people take for granted is When I'll read and listen to hip-hop artists Who were like there in the beginning Depending on where they were in their lives I find there's like a distinct split between the hip-hop artists who were rapping about what they were experiencing and what they were hoping to experience and then a different generation who now and i don't mean this like old school new school at all because it still applies today and then you get other artists who sort of like rap about having as opposed to like what they want to have and then they also rap about the idea of the thing but not the thing itself like they're not actually in it but they rap about it as if they are in it.

1:40:34And then you see this in the smallest ways. There's an interview of yours, I remember reading, it was a crazy one, it was what was it? Maybe like Esquire, one of those. They're doing one of those quick rapid fire ones and the interview was very flippant with you and was just like so who do you think killed Biggie? Who do you think killed Biggie and Puck? Your answer was one of the most, it was so interesting. You answered it like a person who was around then and you just you almost like and I'm reading this by the way I don't even think there's footage you almost like sit up in the chair and you go you're like what are you what are you talking about it was like well who do you think did it East versus West and who do you and you were just like yo yo yo yo you only talk like that because you weren't there this is not like I I wasn't this wasn't a game it's not a game yeah this was a real thing that we were living this is this thing you wouldn't even ask me that question if you knew and that's what I'm feeling from you even when you're talking about these experiences.

1:41:32Yeah, man, because you know what? Life, man, like, I'll tell you, like, it's so funny, and I'm kind of bringing it, but it's like...

1:41:46This whole process, man, like, I think we just have to learn to be a little more grateful. Yeah. And a little bit more comfortable with the idea that things kind of worked out for some of us. You know what I mean? Because we get real like... Complacent. You know, you can start living in a bubble and start taking things for granted. There's real people out here with real lives and real problems. And it's not the highlight reel that the internet is showing you. It's not what TikTok and Reels is showing you. It's like there's a real world out here. And people are going through it. And so if you were blessed enough to escape that, you should be thankful.

1:42:34If you weren't born into that, you should be thankful. But you should always, at a minimum, have some sort of empathy for what's going on in the world. Now, that empathy doesn't have to ruin your life. I'm not asking you to sacrifice yourself on the altar of martyrdom for everything that goes wrong in the world because you'll never be able to live. Yeah. Right. But at the same time. You should recognize that, you know what I mean? And I just, you know, like it's so funny, like now we're shooting, I'm shooting NCIS New York in New York. Right. It's real different. Different edge, different vibe, different.

1:43:17It's like people are probably, like most people are thinking, oh, it'll probably be the same thing. It's the universe, but it's so different. Yeah. It's all the little things. So, you know, it's, let's just be thankful, man. Let's just be thankful. Let's have some fun. Let's be thankful. Let's be glad that, you know, it's us three sitting here and, you know, I'm the guy from New York and you guys came from South Africa and we vibing and it's for the right reason. as opposed to us sitting here, you know, we could be sitting here plotting on how to do something bad or crazy in the world. You know what I mean?

1:43:51Well, the day's not over yet. You know, with no cameras. You know what I mean? So, you know, so like, you know what I mean? Can I tell you, you know, it's funny, you go back to the school conversation, but I genuinely do think this in society. I genuinely do think this. I always wondered to myself how much society loses by not harnessing the talents and ambitions of the people who end up going to do those heinous things? Oh, well, let me tell you. I love that question. Because see, I remember one time I was, you know, visiting Rikers Island. I was there, you know, because I like to visit and talk to the, you know, some of the inmates and stuff and give them love.

1:44:34And this kid was rapping and he sounds so crazy. It was dope. His lyrics, everything, his delivery, I loved it. I'm like, yo, man, you got to do something. And he was like, yo, man, I got life, Al. So he was on Rikers, but he was on his way upstate to do life. So what am I saying? I'm saying that, you know, you heard that term taking penitentiary chances. No, I've never heard that. It's kind of like people that a lot of times the guys that are sitting in prison are some of the more courageous and the more willing to go for it group. They just may have been misguided or had the wrong, they needed wiser people around them or needed better guidance.

1:45:16I would even argue opportunities. I'll tell you why. And opportunities, yeah. Because if those same guys, if you took that same personality, that same everything, but you plunked them in Silicon Valley, don't be shocked when they're part of the next big startup. I believe, I genuinely believe it's the same thrust. it's just if I put you in the wrong place the wrong outcome it's not even you I'm not even saying you need to change I'm just saying if I that's why they call it the trap right? exactly if I give you Legos and if I give you a gun you're gonna probably build something with Legos and you're probably gonna shoot something with a gun is what I'm saying and I don't you get what I'm saying and sometimes we make it about the people but it's like yes but what are the things that are around when we find a child playing with certain things why do we take them away?

1:46:02we don't go like I'm taking the knife away because I don't want my kid to be a serial killer. He's just like, yo, the knife means the kid's more likely to cut someone. No, play with this instead. Because we go, build something. This will, yeah, this will create, this will, it will nurture, it will grow, it will. But on a societal level, I just go like, man, how much have we wasted? How much do we continue to waste? I always think of it like this. It's like a rocket upside down. Facing the right direction, it can go very high. Yo, that's powerful. The wrong direction. That's huge. That's actually amazing.

1:46:29That's huge. That's huge. And you know, I always tell people, you know, you don't rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your system. You know what I'm saying? Yes. So it's like, what's your system? You know, it goes back to the exercise thing or, you know, what's your system like, right? Like, what is your plan? What is your workout? What's the, are you being systematic in your life? So when you think about a lot of, like, the reason I say that is because I want all of the people all over the world to see the humanity in all people. Yeah. Not just in those who are more fortunate.

1:47:05Whew. Because somebody was more fortunate doesn't mean they're more human. Hmm. Yeah. We literally talk about this. And we kind of have a tendency to equate success with humanity. We do. And the less successful you're perceived to be, the less human you are, which is really kind of strange. Yeah. But it also tells another story, which is that part of being human is maximizing your potential. So you are viewed as more human when people perceive you to be more in line. Yeah. With what humanity is. With what you were meant to be. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Using this biological machine to its maximum capacity.

1:47:47100%, baby. And I think if you think about it, our capacity to love is unlimited. but we limit it because of, like you said, fear and expectations and what we think it can do for other people instead of what it can do for us, you know? Absolutely. That's absolutely true. Yeah. I agree with that. And also, you know, there's a difference between being kind and being nice, right? Yeah. Like being nice is like kind of a little bit of a dead-end street because you're doing it to, but being kind, you can tell the truth. It's the same as being loving or being loved. Yeah. Because when you are loved, you are it.

1:48:22if you are loving you are giving it it's the action yeah yeah that's the action versus the that's deep yeah when you when you say the grateful thing it really sticks me because i think about your story and you know when you say like the you know it's it's interesting when you say like the the bullets whizzing by some people hear that and they they they think of it metaphorically even though it's a real thing they still think of it as a metaphor from your life but it's like it's a literal, literal, literal thing. A hundred percent. You know, I remember like reading your story and I was like, I actually wanted to ask you this on a personal level.

1:48:59I was like, because my mom was similar in that, you know, my stepfather shot my mom, right? Okay. She survived. Yeah, my mother was shot. Right. She survived. And the craziest thing was my mom said to me, you have to learn how to forgive him. Don't hate him. And I was like, yo, you need to, you know. Yeah. Wow, I didn't know that about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can relate to that. More than relate. Yeah. I remember reading your story and the parallels, and I was just like, I would say it has taken me at least the good part of a decade to understand why she was doing what she was doing, why she was saying what she was saying.

1:49:47but at the time I just because it's like this you talk about you bump into somebody or something bumps into you that moves you in a different direction my mom like knew in that moment this thing could bump me in a direction where my mind and my perception in life will completely do you get what I'm saying? you know it's interesting the forgiveness thing is deep because it's like just because You have the power not to forgive doesn't mean you shouldn't. Whoa, damn. And, you know, just because you're encouraged by your emotions not to forgive doesn't mean you shouldn't. And, you know, a lot of times it's, I think we as human beings, we find it a lot easier.

1:50:42for whatever reason, there's some sort of selfish reward that comes from holding on to pain. Of course. You know, I don't know. I'm not quite sure what the reward is, but there's something. I don't know if it's like we like. It's almost like we like it. Like we like the fact that we're not forgiving somebody. We get a certain kind of pleasure. And maybe it makes us feel superior in some kind of hidden way. I'm not sure. I'm sure somebody out there, a psychologist out there could unpack that for me. The reward to hanging on to anger is the satisfaction of being right. Yeah. Yeah. Something in that realm.

1:51:27Because if you forgive, you have to admit that you could have been wrong to hold on to the feeling. There you go. And that's not what you want. Exactly. I think to add on to that as well, as you were saying that, I was thinking it's also the idea that it sort of makes it mean more. Yeah, you are right. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Meaning. Because I think sometimes if you forgive somebody, you can feel like it doesn't now mean what it meant. So when you don't forgive someone, you go, what did they do to you? What happened? I'll never forgive them. they did this thing and it's like and that you have to explain what is the thing yeah but but but i think it's because we associate forgiveness with letting go of the meaning of the thing so it's like you know like how people oh i forgive you and then what we interpret that as is i've forgotten about it it is now gone but it doesn't mean that and so i think sometimes what we're holding on to is i can't forgive you because then i've lost the meaning of yeah yeah and you know you know what's deep is see that's why you got to let go and let god because if you go in your If you go in the backyard and you dig a hole and you're angry at the hole and you put your fist in a hole, it can never quite fill up and heal again.

1:52:41But if you kind of back up off it, the leaves, the dirt, soil over time, it will, right? Yeah. So we have to kind of, we got to let go and let God. Because in a way, like, if you stay angry, then God is like, all right, well, you got that covered. Because, you know, I don't need to deal with it because you're angry. Nature can't fill the hole if you're keeping your fist in there. You got to fill with anger, so I don't need to deal with that. You got that covered. But when you let go, then the universe can step in and say, okay, let's help out a little bit. We can fix that, and they'll give you double for your trouble.

1:53:16There's one thing you can hold on from the lesson of after you forgave. Like you were saying, now if you let go, then you feel like you've lost the meaning. But one thing you can keep is the impact. Without a doubt. The impact of what that thing did and shaped you goes into you and you know what it's all about. I watched this interview. They were talking to a forensic scientist and a person who investigates people who've gone missing and have been murdered. And then they were saying, without saying much, I can always walk into a field and tell where the body is buried. Then they were like, how?

1:53:49She said, if the shrubbery in that one patch is greener than the other parts, then it means something is underneath. Oh, damn. The fertilization is abnormal. She said, the other part is, when soil is disturbed to insert a foreign object or bio-object, it will never be flat again. So the indentation and the dibbit will always be there because once it was compressed, disturbed, filled again, that compression took a long time to exist. You can't artificially. Right, right, right. So the grass will grow. Even when it settles, it'll still. Yes. So when they take a serial killer that wants to play games with them and wants time out of prison just to take them on a drive about, she says, I just go in the field and I look and I look.

1:54:36Those two telltale signs have never been wrong. And our lives are like that, I guess. We are like that field that was once, you know, flattened and plain and compressed. Things happen. Things get taken out. You know, new experiences come in, a new book, a new friend, a new song, fill in the hole, but the debit is still there. Yeah. Yes, but what we do is we put crosses all over the field to remind ourselves of where the dibbits are, where the bodies were buried. And we don't necessarily have to. So we always have to remember. And sometimes some people come into our lives and ask us, what made you into this person?

1:55:07And then instead of just identifying the dibbit in the hole, we become that prisoner that takes them out on a drive about. And you know it's deep. And if you think about it, to add on to that metaphor, if you forgive and then you really go out and you go out and you do good works and you go after your dreams, that compression can take place a lot quicker. Yeah. You know, and it can be back to normal. Faster. Yeah, because, you know, because God gets in it. Nature gets in it. Yeah. And then that can take place, you know what I mean? So because, yeah, like... like having things in your past, they don't have to go away, but it can be okay.

1:55:49Oh, I like that. You know what I'm saying? It don't have to go away, but it can be okay. Yeah, it don't have to go away, but it can be okay. You can let go and let God, you know what I mean? Wayne Dyer loved this quote. I'm going to portray it as well. He said, forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet gives to the heel that stepped on it. Yeah, man. Oh, damn, that's beautiful. And what's crazy is now we're in this world where it's like, like the flip side of that is, I love this, this, this, this quote. And I forget that the, the, the guy's name. Those are the best quotes. The one that you forgot, who said it?

1:56:28Yo. They become yours. Power takes as ingratitude, the writhing of its victims. Wait, wait, say that again. Power. Power. Takes as ingratitude, the writhing of its victims. so in other words like if I step on your throat and you struggle you're disrespecting me and so that's what we're dealing with a lot of times people don't realize that I step on your mouth you bleed on my shoe and you're disrespecting me you're disrespecting me yo that applies to so many things in society I can think of that in like abusive households. I can think of that in abusive systems. I can think of that in like oppressive systems.

1:57:18People who go on strike. That's a crazy, yeah, to your point, that's a crazy concept. There's a company that's not paying its employees the money they deserve or they're supposed to get. The employees say, we're not going to come to work. And then the boss goes, how dare they do this to me? That's crazy. Yo. Yo, and we live with that on a daily basis. We live with that on a daily basis. You know what I'm saying? and um you know so you know it's uh you got to know what you're dealing with man out here in the world you know what i mean it's uh and you still got to find that thing there so it's navigating it you know it's uh we're all navigating how have your kids changed how you navigated what what shifted in your life when when that happened you know i'll tell you you know what's funny um my kids I had my kids early in my career like started having kids early in my career I lived the same way.

1:58:16Like they didn't make change me or not change me. I like that. Yeah, I know what you mean. You know what I mean? No, I actually know what you mean. You know, like I had kids and I love them and I want to make sure that they're good, but I'm still going to go after my dreams wholeheartedly. Yeah. You know what's funny is so many parents don't realize that's the greatest gift they can give their kids because you're showing them what to be, not telling them what to be. do you get what I'm saying 100 % we talk about this all the time people forget that your kid when your kid goes remember when you you talked about this even on on the podcast like when you realized you thought that you staying around was the thing that your daughter needed but then at some point she was like yo bro can you let me I need to go be with my friends man like you're holding me back and you're like damn wait what put your oxygen mask on first then help the person next to you, right?

1:59:10So you got to put your oxygen mask on in life. You know what I'm saying? Put your oxygen mask on first then help the person next to you. Help your children, you know? And that goes for relationships too. Yeah. You want your relationship to last? Yeah, you say that all the time. Have some dreams and go after them. Yeah. Be sitting around. What you doing? Where you going? Why you going over there? Who's going to be over there? I don't like the way you said it. I saw your girlfriend's story. Who else was over there?

1:59:50You know what I mean? You know what I mean? You know what you just made me think of, Dad? A dog in a car never barks at moving cars. But when it's on the... When a car is just like... Yeah. Have you noticed that? Yeah, yeah. Just like... Word. I heard. That's what, the way you just said it made me think of that for some strange reason. No, that's crazy, but you don't, yeah, they just. Yeah, because the dog is moving as well. It's like, yeah, all the cars are busying by, but if the cars move and the dog is stationary. Yo, where you going? Who's going to be there? I saw your girlfriend story. Yo, who else?

2:00:24Listen, man. Yo, where you coming? Hey! Yo, my thing is like, have a ball, man. Send me a postcard, man. Have a ball, man. man we had a ball man this was can I tell you thank you man and I appreciate it on so many levels I appreciated one you as the outside figure the you know the father of a genre like one of the pioneers who created something that we still appreciate till this day thank you that's why I appreciate you I appreciate you just as you know a human being taking your time to come and chill with us yeah but I also appreciate you as a fellow introvert leaving your house coming to hang out with us No, because I appreciate that, for real.

2:01:06No doubt. Thank you so much, man. No doubt. Eugene! Thank you so much, my man. My man! My man! Eugene! That's how I'm going to start singing. Eugene! N 'Hee - Huh? Chile. Yeah, N 'Hee - Jelile. N 'Hee - N 'Hee - N 'Hee - N 'Hee - Yeah, you stretch that last part. Yeah, N 'Hee - N 'Hee - N 'Hee - Stretch that last part. N 'Hee - N 'Hee - N 'Hee - N 'Hee - N 'Hee - Yeah, like I've been telling you. You gotta stretch that out. Yeah. I like it, baby. This segment is brought to you by YouTube Premium. One of my favorite things about YouTube is that you never really know where it's going to take you.

2:01:43You know, like, one minute, you're wondering why your computer gets so hot. The next moment, MKBHD and Cleo Abram have shrunk you down and taken you inside your computer, and now you're traveling through the motherboard, squeezing past transistors, moving through the heat sink, following these tiny pathways until 20 minutes later you finally know what it feels like to be an overheating microchip. I have so much empathy now. Oh, then later on, you're out grabbing lunch. You're waiting for someone to finish making their order, you know, quinoa, buddha bowl, salmon salad with the extra little chips, whatever healthy thing they've convinced themselves is going to change their life that afternoon.

2:02:24And while waiting, you remember, you've got a video downloaded on your YouTube premium of Quinn Blackwell trying to feed Charlie XCX. Now you're in Quinn's kitchen. Food is flying everywhere. Charlie's getting hungrier. Quinn's trying to hold the whole thing together. And you're enjoying all of this beautiful chaos while somebody quietly assembles your healthy bowl in the real world. By the time your food's ready? They're still going on. So you put your phone in your pocket and in the background, the play keeps on going. It's background play. That's what it's doing. The video keeps going. You listen to the rest of it on your walk back.

2:02:59And then at the end of the day, you're home. You've done enough. You collapse onto the couch. You put on Anderson Park's Tiny Desk concert and suddenly he's in your living room playing a private concert just for you and 20 of your closest friends. That's what I love about YouTube. In the space of one day, you've been shrunk down inside a computer. You've hung out in the kitchen with famous people. And now one of the best musicians on earth is performing in front of you. Ah, the joys. Somewhere between all of that, real life kept happening. You had to get lunch. You had places to go. You couldn't always be looking at your screen.

2:03:36But you know what? That's not an issue, my friends. Not an issue at all. And that's why I love YouTube Premium. You can download something for later, put the screen away, Keep listening Pick it back up And watch it when you want to do it Wherever you are Whatever your day's doing The experience can move with you So if you like YouTube You'll love YouTube Premium Visit youtube.com slash premium To sign up now for your free trial Trial eligibility varies Terms apply Cancel Anytime What Now with Trevor Noah Is produced by Day Zero Productions In partnership with Sirius XM The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackle.

2:04:20Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Parduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

2:05:13We'll see you next time. That's O-D-O-O dot com.