Malcolm Gladwell: Do Fairytales Make Adulthood Harder?

28:15So I go to John and I say, well, what's going on here? He's like, well, you know, there was a period in American life where if you're a black person and you wanted to succeed, you had to sound like a white person. And that ends in, and he tells me the moment that it shifts. Like you can listen to contemporary, there's a moment where being a black public figure no longer required you to sound white, but required you to sound black. Whatever local, regional, otherwise you would, you know, you went from being in the, before that moment, you would be seen as illegitimate and, you know, uneducated if you sounded quote-unquote black.

28:52After that moment, you would be seen as inauthentic, as pretending to be someone that you weren't. And what was the catalyst? The catalyst, I forgot. It's sometime in the late 60s, early 70s. I've forgotten the specific. But it has to do, as you can imagine, with the rise of kind of black empowerment, black nationalism, black empowerment. It's this incredibly crucial shift in the way white people view black people and the way black people view themselves in this country. And it's marked linguistically. And so Tom Bradley was a vestige. He's born in the teens. So he's a vestige of the earlier. You listen to him, like, I mean, this guy is like black, black.

29:35He's not light-skinned. He's a, you know. And he was the most powerful black politician in the country for years and years. And if you never saw a picture of him, you would think he was white. It's just so fascinating to me. I love I love I mean Eugene how many languages do you speak well as many as possible in South Africa but I speak no no no but I mean seriously how many in South Africa no no no because he's like he's like one of my favorite linguists are you serious yeah he's phenomenal with languages wow wait how many languages are spoken in South Africa as a whole 11 official which the 11th one is a sign language and the other two the other one is and how closely related are they well so there's Zinguni which is Zulu, Kosa, Sindebele, they sound almost alike, and Swati.

30:21And then there's Sutu, and there's Northern Sutu and then Southern Sutu, which is Swana and Zepedi. So they're all almost interlinked, but if you don't know how to tell the difference, you wouldn't be able to. Why is it you know so many of them? What is it about your life that led you to master nine of them? Well, I grew up in a township, like many South Africans at the time. and in our section it was a Tsonga section where my grandfather worked in the railroads so he came from Nelsprich where they speak Siswati so he came all the way to Pretoria and in Pretoria they put him in a section where Tsonga people live so he had to learn Tsonga which isn't like mainstream not very so there's two languages that are not mainstream Tsonga and Chivenda which is more north and the other one is the other side so he had to learn that and when we grew up it was just a language that he would speak with his friends around the neighborhood And then when we would go to school, we'd go to another section that speaks Isi Zulu.

31:17And the school that I went to, I had to learn Isi Zulu. But to get to that school, I had to go through a section that spoke Isi Zulu. So to navigate your way from home to school and to understand what my, because I was very nosy, to understand what my grandfather was saying with his friends, I would often eavesdrop and I would ask him, what is that? What is that? And before I knew it, I would speak all the languages. And my mom was a nurse. so in hospital she would be called all the time to come and translate for the doctors who couldn't understand the language so languages became normal do you mix them up or do you stay with one language when you're speaking it I choose to stay with one but it becomes easy because I sometimes speak Shitsonga with him and he thinks he doesn't know Shitsonga but he speaks very well Shitsonga no I understand but that's fluency in a language but here's the thing that I remember we have 11 official languages I would argue most people in South Africa speak 2 three maximum for the most part so when I'm always fascinated by people who speak like way more languages because I go like how do you and then I'll ask him for the vocabulary and the words but the accents that you're saying I find super fascinating because it's a story you know what I mean we forget that when somebody speaks with an accent there's a story that comes with that accent like always it is almost the same in South Africa what your friend was trying to explain to you when languages and accents started losing what their value was to the people that spoke the languages.

32:42So migrant workers would try, their kids would assimilate to where they were. Yeah. So they would lose the language. So people who come, who speak Isiswati, are from the kingdom of Iswati, which is formerly known as Swaziland, will be closer to people that live in the Nelspred, which is the east. But when they come to the north, they would stop using that language. And there's also a historic kind of side to it where King Shaka, king of the Zulus, had a brother that he sent. His name was Soshangan, that he sent up east to go to Mozambique to go conquer there. Yeah, northeast. Then he never left.

33:13He found it interesting and he loved it. With his little tribe, he built a nation and those people started speaking a dialect of what the people there were speaking, which was a mixture of Portuguese and their indigenous language. It was called Shitsonga. But then when people were being derogatory towards his brother, they said Shangan. And then people were called Shangans. And then that language started dying out because people were ashamed. to be called by the majority group that they're called. Basically, if you call someone that, you call them a defector. Oh, I see. I love these things because - I do like it.

33:46Fascinating, yeah. So to your point, one of my friends, she was deep in, she studied this for acting school in the UK and then came out here. Ella, you know, Ella Belinska, fantastic actress. And she learned all these things. And she took me on a journey, like you're saying. so she can show you how the New Orleans accent, you can trace it back to like an actual French accent. Wow. And if someone does it well, you'll go, that's not possible. I've even had a friend show me that like with Jamaican and then like take Jamaican and then stitch it to parts of England, but then also stitch it to parts of India.

34:26And then you end up with a Jamaican accent. Wow. And you're just like, damn, it's amazing how you're telling a story every time you're speaking. Because all of those, Jamaica had lots of Indians, lots of Chinese, and heavily Scottish. The initial kind of white immigration into Jamaica was Scottish, largely. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah. So you have like, it's why so many Jamaicans have Scottish last names, right? But you get that, you can see the elements that combine to create. Actually, I knew a Jamaican girl once. Don't Jamaican? Well, she was. She was, well, she's complicated. I met her.

35:02She lived, she grew up in Miami. Her parents were, family was Jewish. Her grandparents were, had lived in Cuba and then had moved to Jamaica. So she had, her accent was Miami, Cuba, Jamaica, Jewish. And I could listen. She was, I could listen to this girl all day long. I just like, everything else about her just like faded into, I just said, just talk. It's just incredible. you know every you know how when someone's speaking normally I my question the question in my mind is what word is coming next with her it's not just what word is coming next what's the word gonna sound like because it was so utterly unpredictable I'd never heard this before anyway she was wait but I just realized we didn't get your answer what was your what's your favorite children's character oh you haven't watched the movies oh going all the way back my favorite what's because you just watched now so like now

36:04just be honest Malcolm well I'll tell you I'm getting annoyed that's a good place to start this guy I just wanted the character and then he gladwell'd us no no no I just wanted the character I'm getting there I'm getting there I'm getting there the whole blonde blue eyed Disney heroine thing which I know is a cliche is driving me crazy okay it's really really deeply annoying but you're watching Why are they all the fairest damsel in the land? Like, enough already. Why can't, you know, in the original Cinderella, Cinderella's just like an ordinary girl. Like, she's just a kind of, you know, she's no different than anybody else, but she gets lucky.

36:43And then Disney comes along and insists that she has to be a bombshell. Why does she have to be Marilyn Monroe? In the original fairy tale, it's way better. She's just an ordinary girl who has a fantastic thing happen to her. And so if you're a kid and you listen to Cinderella, you're like, oh, my goodness, amazing things can happen to all of us. Yes. Dizzy comes along, makes her into Marilyn Monroe and says, basically, unless you're drop dead gorgeous and have a heart of gold, it's not happening for you. It's not happening for you. And if things don't happen for you, it's because you're not good looking enough and you've done some evil thing.

37:23So my daughter is sitting here, we're watching Cinderella, and I'm just thinking, oh my God, can they let up already? Can someone even just have dark hair? Why does everyone have to be blonde? What crazy Germanic Aryan fantasy is being worked out in Walt Disney's mind as he's doing this? I mean, you just said it. That's hilarious. You're like, what is going on in Walt Disney's mind? This Aryan... Yeah, you just said it. Anyway. We know how Walt Disney felt. So, I mean, do you know what I mean? There was that. I know nothing about Walt Disney. About how anti-Semitic he was? I did not know that.

38:02Oh, damn. Oh, I thought like you would. Oh, yeah. Walt Disney, man. Hella problematic. Really? Yeah. Tell us more, Trevor. I had no idea. I assumed he was Jewish. Why? With the last name. I mean, in Hollywood, that era. Did I not know that Disney's career? Can I tell you? This was from Poland? By the way, here's the craziest. This is my personal experience of my current. So I love, I have to know where people are from. Okay. I have to. First question I always ask everyone is, literally, I need to know where you're from. I need to know what your background is. I need to know, do you know what languages you speak?

38:41I need to know that in order. It's just, I don't know if it's a bad or a good habit, but it just is an important one. It's important for me to know, did you grow up outside of Pretoria? I grew up in Pretoria. Oh, in Pretoria. Yes. That's important for me to know. My grandfather's the one who came in. And you're Johannesburg. Johannesburg. Important for me to know. So I'm watching the Billy Joel documentary on HBO. And I don't know. I thought he was Italian. Is that crazy? I thought he was an Italian guy from Long Island. So I don't know if you, have you watched this documentary? No, I haven't.

39:12It's fantastic. So like we're 20 minutes in and it's like, of course we were Jewish. I'm like, and I suddenly wake up. Wait, Billy Joel is Jewish? And then, so I'm like, oh my God. This is like rocking my world. And my wife, who is half Jewish and from Long Island and is like, you know, Billy Joel was in her hometown. She worships Billy Joel. She plays like Uptown Girl from my four-year-old constantly. So my wife is like, you didn't know he was Jewish? I was like, no, I thought he was Italian. Then it keeps going. And like in the second part, you learn that his family, his grandfather, he comes from this high-born, sophisticated, intellectual German-Jewish family.

39:53They were industrialists. They owned a big garment manufacturing plant in Nuremberg. The Nazis took it over, and the striped pajamas that were in concentration camps? The Nazis turned that plant into a plant that made those striped pajamas. So if you look on the label of the striped pajamas, it says Joel. No ways. Absolutely. And then, so then also you realize - Wait, they kept the name of the - Yeah, of course they did. That's weird. The label's already there, so. They already had - I mean, I mean, it's weird that they put labels on. Sorry, I'm focusing on the wrong part. This is just like a weird - But then you understand.

40:34So I always wondered, why did Billy Joel - Because I would - There's a famous - You ever watch Inside the Actor's Studio? Yes. Okay, so the one with him, which I saw years ago, is one of the greatest ones of all time. And you realize, oh, because he would play all his classical music. You're like, he knows all his classical music. I was like, so I was trying to compete. I thought he was like working class Italian from Long Island. How does he know Tchaikovsky from memory? Like, it didn't make any sense to me. But now, I was like, oh, his father was a classically trained pianist. Because, of course, they come from this incredibly sophisticated family in Europe.

41:06I totally located him in the wrong place. So for me, who loves to locate people, this is like so destabilizing. And then in the documentary, and this is the problem with the documentary. So my first thought is, okay, now that I know this fact, why isn't the whole person, and he has a falling out with his father. The whole documentary should be about his father. The whole thing is about, Billy Joel's whole life is, kid of this insanely sophisticated intellectual German Jewish family who are Holocaust escapees, comes to Long Island and reinvents himself as like a Long Island street hood. But he can't pull off the reinvention, quote unquote, successfully, because he's too sophisticated.

41:47The minute he plays Tchaikovsky. And too smart, and he plays Tchaikovsky. So that's the story. And his father disappears from the family. And what's he doing in his whole life? He's chasing this vanished father who represents the sophisticated side that he has kind of lost contact with. And there's a moment in the dark, and they only give you 30 seconds of it, which drove me crazy. He finds his father years later, who's living in Vienna, and that song, Vienna Waits for You, it's about his father. It's about finding his father in Vienna. I didn't know that. No one told me that. I just thought he went to Vienna on holiday.

42:21No, no, it's about his father. So then, you know that song? Vienna Waits for You. It's one of the most beautiful. I don't know any songs by their titles. It's one of the most beautiful of all the Billy Joel songs. And I heard it as a kid, and I was like, I was almost moved to tears by it. But I just thought he's random. You know, I just thought he's a random, he's an Italian kid dreaming about Vienna. No, his dad's living in Vienna. He discovers his dad in Vienna. He goes there, writes the song. And then they show you, he's at this concert, and they show him saying, Dad, if you'd come up and if you want to play, and then they cut to, they have two grand pianos pushed together, and Billy's on one and his dad's on the other.

42:57Oh, wow. And it's like, they only, they give us 10 seconds of this, and they should have given us 45 minutes of this. The Gladwell cut, that's what we need. We need - We should actually just do this. You know what? I'm going to pitch you a business here. You just go in and we just Gladwell everything. So we Gladwell Disney movies, we Gladwell documentaries, because clearly there's the Gladwell cuts. And you basically go off on your own tangents. The one that you would have loved to see. I don't want to, it's not just the Gladwell cut. I think the three of us, this should be a business for the three of us.

43:27I think all of us should contribute to the reimagining of these flawed classics. What, the Disney ones? Yeah, but here's, okay, but have you watched the newer ones? Well, I've watched Moana? No, because they have been reimagined. We did. I didn't want to spoil it for you. No, no, we did Moana the other night. Yeah. But it gets really violent. I'm like. That's what it's like. That's what it'd be like to be young, female, and black.

43:55When your friend is a chicken and one is a pig. And you're stuck with an older guy. A guy. With a catamaran. and your gran is a ghost and your grandfather ran away from your dad and he's a spirit of the seas. The chicken. Eugene watches a lot of Moana. Do you, as you can tell? Juan, yes. How old? My daughter's turning 17 this year. Oh, seven. Are you years away from this? What? From Moana. We watched it the other day. Can you not tell? What do you mean? You're assuming that his daughter is the one who wants to watch it. Oh, is he? That was the one who was saying. she has to put it on for him make way make way yeah she's the one who's putting it on for him I actually feel like you know with the Disney movies one of the issues I actually have is and maybe this is like the Gladwell part of my brain is I go I think Disney did a major disservice to an entire generation that has grown up on it because it gave us a false idea of how things turn out yeah happy endings but not just happy endings It's like the way things turn out.

45:01Like I'll talk to a lot of people who go, oh, the world, I can't believe this. I can't believe, they can't believe Trump won. They can't believe this is still happening. They can't, then I'm like, but why can you not believe it? And then for me, at least I go, if you've grown up your whole life being told that the good guy always wins, that the damsel always gets saved, that the, you know, then when you go out into life, you're like, don't worry, you just wait. Trump, oh, you'll see what happens to him by the third act. You'll see what happens to him. It's only him. And then it's like, it's not a matter of time.

45:34That's not actually how the world works. Do you get what I'm saying? And I think those movies are partially to blame for that. And I don't know if you would know this, maybe you know deep, but like a lot of them were based on stories that didn't have those endings. You do know that, right? I know, they changed them. Don and Walt. No, no, but seriously, they were not happy endings. Like I think in one of them, is it Sleeping Beauty or Snow? She just dies. She is actually dead. She is dead. Yeah, Sleeping Beauty. She is dead. so they're just kissing a dead body the original Grimm Brothers is there a word for that in the English language?

46:04what is it? oh necrophilia say it when you write their 11 languages how was this? oh man you know that's another way you know the thought that I had about that the thought I had about I'm still recovering and the expressive do they all have Was it you putting that on? Or is there something in that language that is more expressive? Well, half the language, but... It's tombread. There's definitely half in the language. There's half in the language. There definitely is. Like the name for flip-flops. That's better. That is so much better. Because it's the sound that they make when you walk. So much better.

46:54Yeah. So much better. It's better than It's doombu But that does sound like a dead body If you think about it Okay Imagine if you had a dead body And you dropped it on the ground So Okay I will hold the dead body You're gonna say the word As I drop this dead body You got it Oh man This body's so heavy Oh god damn dead body Oh no I dropped it Doombu Wait what's the literal translation of doombu? It's doombu Doombu It's a corpse Oh, I see. Yes, but I'm saying, what sound does a dead body make when you drop it? Exactly. There should be an aggressive program to incorporate. Like, my mother uses this Jamaican word for, it's not quite a rascal.

47:41It's a lovable rascal, but it's more than that. It's jinal. Jinal? Jinal. Okay. And she would, some of my fondest memories as a child are doing something that was clearly wrong. and my mother calling me a jinnel. And what it meant was, what you did was wrong, but I... I said love you. Oh, I like that. No, no, it's more than I love you. It's not that I forgive you when I love you. It's that I recognize that the core of that behavior is something I would like to keep alive and cherish. Oh, wow. That's what it is. The jinnel is like... The jinnel is... The jinnel will save us if we're all imperiled and the overlord is...

48:22The general is the one who will, you know, it's the Anansi figure. It's the classic in sort of African folklore, the idea of the mischief maker who could save the day. It is not inherently bad, but it causes so much mischief that we don't like it. But in a time of need, it will step up. Exactly. Okay. That particular thing, that's just a lovely word. And I taught it to my daughter because she's a general. Which one? The four-year-old. She now uses general. It makes me so happy. she accused her mother of being a general I was like your mother is not a general that's actually not what Kate is oh man causing chaos in the household oh man but like those all those little those little folkisms because this my mother would have who's turned 94 yesterday would have learned that from you know the nanny she would have had in the little tiny place in the middle of Jamaica in the 30s would have been the, who was an older woman, would have been probably the daughter or granddaughter of someone who might have been born in Africa.

49:35Because remember, West Indian slaves were, because they all died off, they were constantly bringing in new ones. So you could actually be the granddaughter of someone who came from Africa. So that's an African term that just enters straight into the Jamaican vernacular. So it's this hilarious thing that now the language of our household is echoing. But that's beautiful, man. It's really beautiful. I always feel like we've got to do that more. Yeah, that's my point. You guys should come up with three or four words which you just try really, really hard to introduce into the American vernacular that are better, that actually have some objective advantage.

50:14Okay we'll do that That'll be our work That'll be your work That'll be like our job We'll work through it And we'll figure I'll make note When you say something And I'll be like I think that's what We can get people saying You know when You're right Actually you know When I realized That it's actually He actually speaks More languages Than he lets on And actually we miss Speaking the language And I think people That have known him For longer Over here Don't know that He speaks the languages It's when we drift off And we speak Isizulo or Shitsonga Yeah yeah We'll just switch into And then you just See everyone going No, but you know the weirdest thing He's from there He's from there, we found him And then Ice like shows up It's like, oh, he's not an American Juno Oh man Don't go anywhere Because we got more What Now after this Finding the music you love shouldn't be hard That's why Pandora makes it easy To explore all your favorites And discover new artists and genres you'll love Enjoy a personalized listening experience simply by selecting any song or album, and we'll make a station crafted just for you.

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52:33Oh, that journal thing. Do you think that that is sort of what has informed how you write, how you think? Because I've always felt like you were a mischievous reporter. Let me tell you what I mean by this. I've met many reporters in my lifetime. And even the old, old, old school ones from the Brokaw days. Tom Brokaw. And they have a, well, let me tell you something. When you're searching for a fact, you have to know where a fact starts and where it ends. And you search for the story and there's something about it that you have to. And there's like, oh, okay, I get this. And then there's journalists today.

53:09you were one of the most mischievous journalists I've ever met. And I think that's part of what I like about your thinking, your writing, your vibe. But do you think you kept that because of what your mom said? Well, it's, I think, first of all, thank you. But I think it's because my, it doesn't feel mischievous to me because my parents were the same way. Oh, okay. My mother is still, she's just turned 94. She's in a nursing home in Canada. and she writes for the nursing home newsletter. That's amazing. She sends them to me. And they're like really interesting, thoughtful, but like half the time she's like, you know, picking a fight with some.

53:50Or doing some. And it's really, she's just in a very nice, respectful way. She's causing trouble still. She's a troublemaker. She's always been a little bit of a, you know, So like there's something in her, and I think that's a, there's something, an immigrant is someone, you know, which all of us at this table are immigrants. My mother was an immigrant three times over or twice over. I think an immigrant has that impulse because they're willing to shake up their life, right? And so they, once you've made this, the most, once you've made the most important of all decisions about shaking up your life, which is I am leaving family friends and culture and going somewhere else, then everything else seems trivial in comparison, right?

54:37Like, you know, you've done the hard thing. Like, you know, you've already thumbed your nose at what everyone else in your circle is doing. You've left. So, like, now you can... It's why are comics so often from, you know, either immigrant groups or marginalized groups because they've already done the big thing. Right after that. It's easy after that. I wonder if it's augmented by whether or not you chose your immigration. Because when you were saying that, I was trying to think through and I went, I actually feel like there's almost two camps if we were going to make it binary. I think there are some immigrants who are the opposite of that.

55:21There are many immigrants who are like, no, I do not shake. I do not. There's no mischief. My only goal is to fully become this new world because I don't necessarily have another choice. You know what I mean? but then I wonder if like you're more likely to keep that mischief when your choice was the thing because if you shake up your world you're mischievous but if the world shakes up your your life then you not you not you don't necessarily have that same thing I think does that make sense it does like I think there's some people where they go like my parents came here because they wanted to yeah those parents are generally more like shaking up the world then there's some people who go yeah my parents came here because they had to something happened And I find sometimes, not always But sometimes those people are like Listen, this is not my choice And so I don't want to be shaken up again So I'm not going to be in a position Where I can be shaken up Yeah, but there are ways that you always see How those groups that have migrated From somewhere that they loved And that they miss Have always just rebelled a little bit In the way they cook food Or stealing off speaking their language Inside their house and sometimes not losing their accents because my grandfather was big and not trying to lose his accent.

56:37Like actively trying. Actively trying. That's a funny thought. Because even the friends that he kept, even well into his old age, were people that came from the same province as him that spoke the same language. Then he would keep, they would play cards together and insist on speaking the language and just sounding like they were back home when they were not. You know, so there is that little part. He would also make his own biltong. You know what biltong is? like beef jerky beef jerky yeah yeah yeah he would insist on which drove my grandmother crazy he would just hold on to those two things because what he hated the most was the fact that when his parents died right he had to go live with his uncle yeah so when he moved in with his uncle he lived with him for a while and then when it was time for him to get his ID card he couldn't use his father's surname which was Ngomane so he had to use his uncle's surname which was Kosa which was my surname Oh, that's your surname, yeah.

57:31Yes. And then all of his life, from when his first grandchild was born, he insisted that we call him Grandfather Goman. So he wanted to hold on to the thing. Language. What his dad taught him how to make jerky and also the language. But you see, that's sort of what I'm saying. Yeah. If you think about it. Yeah. Because it was taken from him. Twice. He did not have the inclination to lose it or to shake it up. Yes. His inclination was hold on to it as much as possible. I want to keep that accent, that last name, that food. because it was taken from him. But I feel like there's a mischievous luxury that comes with you being the creator of your little tornado.

58:09And it's just like, you know what I mean? It's just like - Wait, wait, I have something. Hearing you listen, Eugene, talk, reminds me of this thing I've been thinking about, which is that you've talked now on several occasions about your grandfather. So this is a two-part theory. Part one of the theory is all of us explain who we are with some reference to our families, right? It's a common thing. But I've noticed that when people do this, they always pick one. So you never hear someone say, rarely, I get this from my mom and this from my dad. What you get is when they're talking about something, you say, oh yeah, that comes from my father.

58:50And they talk father, father, father, father, father, father. And then you come back to them five years later and they're like, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom. And the dad's disappeared. You can't do both at the same time. No, No, you can't. And then part two of this series, I thought of this for a while, because I was noticing, this is the theory of asymmetrical parental attribution. You can only do one parent at a time. The theory of asymmetrical parental attribution. You can only do one parent at a time. At a time. But then I decided, no, no, no, I don't like that theory anymore. Then I decided - Well, you just decided randomly?

59:18Yeah, I kicked the theory out of it. Let's go. Theory boss. And I decided, I think the mistake we make, I don't think parents, this is why I'm coming back to it. I don't think parents are the right place to make sense of someone. I think grandparents are. In other words, if I'd never met you, either of you before, and you sat down and I gave myself 10 minutes to get to the essence of you psychologically, and I had a choice. I could have you talk only about your parents or I could have you talk only about your grandparents. My point is the grandparents is a far more revelatory conversation because there's so much noise with your relationship with your parents.

59:59You're blind to it. It's complicated for all kinds of other reasons. There's siblings in the mix. You can't figure it all out. But if I get you to talk about your grandparents, there's a kind of purity in the way we see our grandparents. And when I think about my, I can locate myself way more easily in my grandparents than my parents. And I think of my kids and I can locate them much more easily in their, in my parents and my wife's parents than I can in us. And I think grandparents, because we've sort of gotten, this would have been a hundred years ago. Yeah. This would have been commonplace because we were living with our grandparents and we had, but now it's like a harder thing to grasp because they're not, they're absent in a way they weren't before.

1:00:46But you think perhaps maybe that's why they're called grand? Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, they are grand. They are. Like the ultimate of parents. The ultimate of... The pinnacle of parents. But I just loved that you were talking so much about your grandfather because it's rare that... Not rare, but it's... People don't spend enough time, I think, talking about that layer of their heritage. I think mostly sometimes... That's very... You're good. Have you thought of writing a book? So this is not a profound theory. As an author, you would... This is just a random observation. But now I'm curious.

1:01:24You're so right. Does that make sense? It makes 100 % sense. You're right when you say it's the noise between yourself and the parents. And also, there's no one greater than your parents at the time that your parents are in your life. So people who have enriching childhoods, which is what I had up until the age of six, was when my grandparents were around. Yeah. Because it almost allowed me to see my parents as children as well. because they had someone older who could tell them, you don't do that because disciplining was not a thing when my grandparents were around. I would get away so much more.

1:01:56But then when my grandparents passed away, my parents almost had to step in to become the parents and they became the villains of the story. Don't do this, don't do that. And also you miss the person that let you get away so much more. And I had to pick in my memory the past that I remember the most, you know, sitting under the table. My grandfather used to be like, you're going to end up on TV one day. And I was like, why? because when I was five or six we got our first television set the news would play in English and he would say watch what my granddad is going to do then he would say tell us what they said then I would just listen listen and I would be like wait would you say it back in English or would you say no I'd say it back in song so you would translate it yes you see I didn't even know that but there you go then he said you are going to end up on television one day and my mom held on to that forever and ever and ever she used to say that over and over again and it happened so I remember those little moments and I'm like...

1:02:47So not only, what's interesting is not only do you see your grandparents more clearly than your parents, but your grandparents maybe saw you more clearly than your parents did. They also, because it goes in both directions because they don't have the clutter either. Apparently, there's so much now that I'm a parent. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't just gladwell us and gloss through that. There's so much clutter. When I look at even my own kids, there's so much in the way of seeing them clearly. There's so many, so much crap you bring to that relationship with your kids like that is irrelevant to who they are you're so intent on turning them into versions of yourself that you forget they're they'll they're not never will be but the grandparents free of that they're they they get to see the kids for who they are right that was i remember that i knew i knew my um i didn't know my my my grandparents all died before i was uh and they were always living in other countries but i always felt that there was a kind of clarity in the way they saw me.

1:03:50And it was, yeah, it was like an uncomplicated... Is there a part of you that wishes you had your kids sooner in life so that they could have had that? Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, it's the biggest mistake. Really? I was waiting so long. But on the other hand, I'm chiller than I would have been. I find parenting to be completely unstressful. I think that's because I'm older. I find it hilarious. When they act up, I find it. And I also let them do whatever they want. So in a way, you are the grandparent. I am the permissive grandparent. There's no question about that. That is amazing. And, you know, maybe that has consequences.

1:04:27Who knows? I won't be around for them. I'm kidding. Wait, so who is your favorite kid's character? I thought you were going to say, who's your favorite kid? I was like, oh my God. No, I wouldn't do that. How dare you? I wouldn't do that. Louis. You can't know this soon. You'll know. But not this soon. Have you decided yet? Do I have? I'm struggling with this one. I know. That's what I'm saying. Don't think. Just there's got to be one that makes you happy inside because you've watched Peppa Pig. It's Peppa Pig's grandfather. It's hilarious to me because. Peppa Pig has a grandfather? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that.

1:05:03He's so funny because he's just like, he is so, there's a certain kind of, that's my, you know, my father's family. I feel like they were a hundred people like Peppa Pig's father and Peppa Pig's dad. It just takes me back to going to England as a kid. I'm like, they're all that way. And they capture that really beautiful thing about the way the English speak, which is they love being vague about everything. I'll just have a spot of tea. Yes. What's a spot? We're not going to, it's not a cup. It's not specifying anything. And everything is in this kind of vague, like euphemistic language. That's what I listened to as a kid, and I just love it.

1:05:42I just think it's fantastic. When you hear that, it just like takes you back to that. Takes me back. My dad would do that. My dad was incredibly delightfully inarticulate. Just couldn't. Inarticulate. Inarticulate. Like, which is why I was so obsessed with expressing myself because I've said this very many times. If you live with a father who is completely inarticulate, what do you do? I spend my entire time as he's speaking as a kid, like rewriting the words in my head. No, no, no, don't say that. what you mean is this you should say this like come on out with it what you mean what you're looking for is this this is what's going on in my head as a kid but i'm listening to him and he wasn't he's incredibly smart man but just like not interested in mastering you know tell a joke and would he the first time he took my mother on a date they go to some big you know student thing at the university college in london and he stands up to tell a joke and he forgets the punchline.

1:06:40And my mom, this is his first date. My mother's sitting there. She's like, what just happened? This guy takes me out. This white guy, first of all, this white guy takes me out. And by the way, my father, my mother's a twin and her twin. Identical twin. Identical twin. Went to the same UCL a year before. And my father asked my mother's sister out who turned him down but said, my sister is coming. That is hilarious. So you imagine the psychological kind of circumstances of my mother. So not only is she like, I think he might prefer my twin, A, and B, he's just made a fool of himself in front of like 100 of his brothers.

1:07:18Anyway, they were happily married for 50, whatever, 60 years. That's beautiful. Wasn't it weird having a mom who has a twin? I could imagine the mischief that Jen Diller would get up to. But why do you think that? Because I would have someone who looks like my mom but doesn't behave like my mom. You know how many times I'd wish my mom had a twin Jane life or my aunt would come over and rescue me? Well, you're going to like use your mom for shenanigans, like your mom's sister for shenanigans. Let's not use moms. My mom we're talking about too. Why are we using? It's not that generation that's interesting.

1:07:55It's the next generation. So your mom's twin sister's children are your half siblings genetically. Yes. So that's interesting. Oh, geez. Right? Well, I've never thought of that, actually. We share the same mom. Oh, geez. So all of my, they're first cousins who are actually half siblings. And it's just really interesting. There's a kind of comfort level that you would have with a sibling, but it's a first cousin. But how different was your mom from your aunt? My mom is... Or your aunt. Is that how you guys say it here? They looked exactly the same to the point where, And they did that thing. My aunt was living in Jamaica, my mom in Canada, and they would independently, without telling each other, wear the same clothes, change their hairstyles.

1:08:44We were talking about this the other day. This is so wild. It's this freaky twin thing that happens. So they always looked identical. So I would mistake them. You yourself. And then we would go to Jamaica to visit, and my mother would drive around with my father, and everyone in the little town would think that my aunt was stepping out with a strange white man. Oh, man. Oh, man. Shenanigans. Who was inarticulate and who couldn't find a pipe slide. I was like, that's him. Wearing a suit and tie, like, you know, an English guy with a big beard. And then... Explain yourself. And he's like, well, it appears there's quite an unfortunate coming together of stories that might confuse two people, or groups, rather, who think that...

1:09:30Ah, you're dead. No, no, it's lovely. But my grand, but the other flip side of it is that my mom's twin sister marries a Jamaican guy, but who is basically my father. No, no ways. I've heard of that happening. He's not a mathematician. Jamaican version of your English dad. They find, which makes sense. They're the same person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they find, they're exact. In fact, my father and my uncle knew each other before. and my uncle was actively, successfully pursued by odd. But they looked the same. They had the same interests. The whole thing is just uncanny. In the Xhosa culture, if there's a twin, one must lose part of their pinky so people can identify them easily.

1:10:16God damn. Yeah, they must cut part of their pinky. The brutal version. But there are other cultures, I'm not sure which one it is in South Africa, where if you marry one twin, you have to marry the other. Whoa. Because chances of the other one being happy without the other are very low. unless they meet someone who's like you. Yeah. So you have to do polygamy in that way to keep them together and to keep the other one from making another man miserable. So the fact that your aunt married someone similar to your dad and your dad almost dated her first is the only reason she has her pinky.

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1:12:12You know the thing you're talking about, about us taking the articulate thing with your dad? But I've always wanted to learn or I've tried to learn about astrophysics. And it's so complicated. And math throws me. It's too much for my brain. But I like to try and learn about it. And one of the more interesting ideas for me is entropy. The idea that everything energy-wise is always trying to get to a state of sort of like middle is the best way to describe it in my brain. and when you say that i always wonder if that's all we're doing as like species and and humans and is people don't realize that their kids are supposed to sort of like balance them out so if you are loud and crazy there's a good chance your kid might be like really quiet especially if you have like one kid they might be like really quiet and timid and then if you are inarticulate your kid is going to be extremely precise and good and a wordsmith and you know i even wondered that with i wondered if covid was the ultimate natural experiment which i know you love by the way just natural experiments not covid what do you mean no not covid no natural experiment no because because what covid did in some ways covid showed us that the human experiment has been successful in that one thing could not wipe us all out yes some people died very quickly some people didn't even get a sniff and we don't really know why you know there's obviously things people like comorbidities and weight and age yeah but once you remove that there's some instances where people just they were just gone and then others on the opposite end of the spectrum with and then the middle people got sick and whatever and i was thinking about that going it's like this fascinating beautiful sort of like um hedging of our bets that we do as a as a species yeah where you're supposed to be a little bit different try this version try that version and then if you have multiple kids they must all try a different version different version so that the species has the best chance of surviving do you know what i mean like i've always wondered that as like a it's the great for your it's one of the great puzzles in psychology was trying to figure out and it goes exactly to your point why are siblings so different because they shouldn't be different yeah they have same parents same genes same same home environment same but they're like wildly different, right?

1:14:38And that is because, yeah, the impulse is to differentiate, not to, is to take the exact same experience and interpret it in radically different ways. And I see it already with my two daughters, like the younger one is fashioning from exactly the same environment, is fashioning a completely different experience for herself. Yeah. Nature versus nurture. Yeah. But even beyond that, it's a safety mechanism. One of the rabbit holes I've been, you know, going deeper and deeper into over the past few years has been like monopolies and consolidation. I'm obsessed by it. And I'm obsessed by it because we were never really taught about the effects.

1:15:16Like most people in society, if you go monopolies, they'd be like, I guess it's bad because we're told it's bad. But for most of us, if you say like, why is it bad? We don't really know like why, you know, someone might be like, oh, prices and whatever. one of the best examples of why it's bad sort of ties into this is in america and in many parts of the world now if one species of chicken gets sick okay they are they could all go they could all go monocultures yeah yeah exactly like there's one family in germany i think or something that owns i think it's a type of egg but it's like it's basically the egg if that makes sense and And if something goes wrong with that egg, or if there's a disease that affects that strain of chicken and that species of, it's gone.

1:16:07Yeah. Yeah, but it's gone. This is the story in my last book. I told that story about the cheetahs. The cheetahs, there was an extinction event for cheetahs like whatever, a thousand years ago. And we think that the cheetah population of the world might've got down to one. What? At some point. One pregnant mother who survived. And that's why every cheetah today is genetically identical, which is why cheetahs have such incredible disease. Yeah, they're struggling. Even now. They're prone to disease. Oh my God, they're so prone to disease. It's really, really hard to keep cheetahs alive in captivity because even minor infections, there's certain kinds of minor infections which that particular cheetah type just happens to be susceptible to.

1:16:51And so they're all susceptible to it. So there's a kind of coronavirus that normally animals shrug off, but it's fatal to cheetahs. And then we had a huge problem a couple years ago with keeping, but in the wild too, cheetahs are like, they're sickly and it's because they're all the same and their sperm is degraded. It's just cousins maybe mating with cousins over and over and over and over and over again. They're so identical like that you can do, you know, when you do a skin graft, the reason they figured this out was they were puzzled by why cheetahs were getting so sick in zoos. And so they did a simple skin graft where they took two cheetahs, different cheetahs, and they just took skin from one and grafted onto the other.

1:17:33And under normal circumstances, the graft would be rejected. Oh, rejected. Because it's different. Like you can't slap on a graft. Ah, someone's skin. You have to give them all kinds of immunosuppressive drugs. Right, right. No problem. Hmm. The other cheetah just accepted the graft and they realized, oh my God, they're twins. And it's like, they're all twins, cheetahs. It's just one family and that's it. It's just one big, big family. But those are, and I use that in that book because I was describing, I was writing about this little wealthy town, which is known as Poplar Grove, I don't give its real name, that had a suicide epidemic at the high school local, that went on for years, a very serious one.

1:18:16And my argument, the argument in the book and the argument of the researchers who studied it was that the problem was that the community had become a monoculture. The kids were all the same. They're all pursuing the same goals. They all wanted to go to Ivy League schools, be attractive, play sports, work really hard, win their parents' approval. And that's not normal for adolescents. In a normal high school, there's 10 different social groups, each of which have different goals. And if you fail at one group, you just slide into another. There's always a home for you, right? And if you didn't in this high school, if you didn't fit this perfect model, the one perfect model, then you were considered to be a failure, right?

1:18:56And that's how the suicide epidemic got started. All these kids... They just eliminate themselves because they didn't fit into the general population. I'm not, I can't live up to the standard, right? So in the pursuit of excellence, and everyone would agree, this is one of the greatest high schools, public high schools in America, one of the loveliest places to live in America. There was this disaster because they forgot how incredibly important this kind of diversity that you're talking about is to successfully functioning societies. You can't have, especially teenagers, you can't put a teenager into a system where there's only one model of success.

1:19:33I think we're experiencing that with everything. And it's, so one of the, you know, sometimes in life you'll have an experience that isn't necessarily special, but it has an outsized effect on you. one of those was a trip that i i took was my first time ever going to paris it was like a few years ago you know it's pretty late in life if you can travel and i went to paris and it was this whole thing and what i found most interesting about france's history was how they imperfectly but but still in a in a really beautiful way sought to encourage the idea of the difference like and and what the reason it stuck with me is because it was like art they were they were like if you're an artist you have a you have a purpose the french government would pay you to just make art just make it good or not good we'll decide later your job is to make art and then the government will buy it and then we'll go from there sculptures you name it you know sometimes it was music sometimes and what i what i kept thinking was what is going to happen to our society if we allow it to get to a place where the only way we measure success is one metric what is what is going to happen to our society when every kid wants to be the same thing because the only way we measure success is through money or through a certain type of power and so no one wants to be a teacher no one wants to be a nurse no one wants to be do you know what i mean like what what happens when that becomes a homogenous society does it mean we then lose our edge like when we're all the surgeon yeah or when we're all the accountant or when we're like what happens to us that's what i and when you put it that way i go like oh yeah yeah we lose our edge yeah no i mean there there are still i mean thankfully there are professions i i do this thing as part of my kind of job where uh i find people who i think are interesting and i just interview them um sometimes for 20 30 hours until i find the story i did this last summer with this incredible woman.

1:21:39I'm doing it right now with this Canadian anesthesiologist from Atlanta, who is the most, I love this guy so much. He looks like, he's so handsome, first of all. And I realize that's not relevant, but it is kind of relevant. And he is so articulate that sometimes I'm listening to him and I'm just like, I can't improve on this. This is, you know, because I'm used to having the voice in the head. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he just expresses himself so beautifully and just everything. I mean, it's perfection. In another era, he would be a famous rabbi or a, you know, but he's a doctor. He's an intensive care specialist.

1:22:31And he describes his, and what I'm really interested in is just, I want to know what his life is like. What is it like? He goes into intensive care for shifts of seven days, where he's on, basically. And it's the most, intensive care is the hardest and most intellectually demanding, he says. And I think I agree with him, of the medical specialties. And you have someone who is in real trouble, and you are locked in for your seven-day stretch with that person. And his, and the reason I'm saying this, his metric of success is incredibly specific. And it's outside all these, I know, I'm sure he cares about money like all of us.

1:23:14But like, if he wanted to make money, this is a dude who could have made 10x on Wall Street, right? He could have been famous, I'm quite sure, if he wanted. He's never going to be famous. He's a doctor at a research hospital in Atlanta. Like, the thing that he uses to judge his contribution to society is the degree of kind of intellectual and physical effort he puts into keeping someone alive during his seven days on. Right? And as long as there are professions like that, that allow people to have their own very specific definition of success, we're okay. As long as they exist. Yeah. No. Yeah.

1:23:57Will they always exist? but there are these little pockets where, you know, I'm about to say something incredibly morbid. Stumbo. Yes. How do you say that word again? Stumbo. Stumbo. So S-T-U feels like a stumbo. Oh, I see. Stumbo. Okay. Imagine like a drum, like a big drum being stumbo. Stumbo. Yeah, and then the drum release is stumbo. Oh, stumbo. Ah, there you go. Okay, all right, all right. Okay. Stumbu. So my mother is 94, and I've been thinking, because I can't help myself, I've been thinking about her obituary. Right. Right? She's not. She's a long way from dying, knock on wood. But she talks about, you know, so she was talking about what she wanted to be cremated.

1:24:48I was like, why are you doing this? Anyway, so I was like, what would I say? Many, many, many people will come to my mom's funeral. So what would I say? because it's going to, you know, I'm going to have to. And one of the things I want to say about her and her life is that she's someone who lived a small life, meaning that she could have lived a big life. She could have been famous. She could have made a lot of money. She's a brilliant, driven, ambitious, you know, woman. She chose instead to define her life much like that doctor I was talking about. She's someone who, her whole life is a series of relationships in which she has taken care of people or been important to people for decades.

1:25:31And there are now, you know, countless people who have been in contact with my mother in an intimate way, going back 50, 60 years. I remember as a kid, there would be people coming into our living room who I'd never seen before, just to sit with my mother and share. And I would listen to these conversations, very personal things about the things. That's her life. That's the way she chose. And so she chose to live a small life. And the idea of valorizing the small life is, I think, really important. And a society that loses sight of the, in many ways, the contribution of the people who live small lives is greater than the contribution of people who live big lives.

1:26:21Society doesn't work without that layer, right? So that's what I've been thinking about. That's what I would like to say. By choice, she lived a small life, and it was—she's not dead. It's horrible. Why am I doing this? But that's what I would like to say. That's her—about her. That's her legacy, I think. And it's a really beautiful one. And it's not done. She's still doing that thing. Only in a nursing home in rural Ontario. I think what you speak about is what a lot of people crave now, the simplicity of life as well. Sometimes we're like, no, we want it organic. I want that real small farmer that makes those.

1:27:08If it's not in season, then I will not have it. I think ultimately inside with all the conveniences that we have now and all the abundance that we have now, we still crave to forage. We want to go and find out. We want to sit for 30 hours with a human being and just hear what they have to say and go through the weeds until we find the treasure, you know? And I find that with great friendships, that's what friendships are about. We're having this conversation about how to approach anything, whether it's an episode or comedy. And we're saying that if you're not willing to go and whack the weeds until you found the Garden of Eden, then you've just lost what he likes to call the friction of life.

1:27:43Yeah. But it's the small, I like the poetry that you've expressed it with. Me? Because, no, Malcolm. Oh, yeah. Yours as well. Yours as well, definitely. No, but I mean in talking about your mom specifically, because like there's a beautiful, to go back to football, sorry, Eugene. No, no, no. But to go back to football, one of my favorite things about Liverpool is how many opposing players and teams will say, man, you don't want to play at Anfield. And they don't just mean you don't want to play the away game. They often refer to the fact that the fans are a 12th player on the field. And Mikel Arteta, the coach of Arsenal, who used to be, I mean, he's one of the best players who's played the game, talks about his playing days.

1:28:39And they asked him about where to play and what was tough. And he has the story where he recounts how tough going to Anfield was. And what made Mikel Arteta brilliant was that he could see the whole game. He could always see where players were. He was that kind of player. He was the point guard in that way. And he says when he went to Anfield, the fans would start singing. The fans would start chanting. And he says, you would lose your teammates. He said, you would just lose them. You'd be like, I'm alone. He'd be like, wait, where's everyone? And in that, I think that's another thing that I loved about Liverpool.

1:29:14And I think a lot of football fans will have this with their teams generally. if it's a great team and great fans is there's a beautiful synergy between the big and the small. Every football player, every basketball player, every, doesn't matter what athlete they are, they will tell you that when they had to perform their sport with nobody around, there wasn't a thing. Yeah, you could hit the ball. Yeah, you could shoot. Yeah, you could jump. It wasn't the same. But the little, people they were doing the biggest thing it's just that we sometimes don't see it that way because of how we like aim the lens does that make sense yes yes like the fans are making to your point english football one of the reasons i think it is the biggest of the leagues in the world the biggest is because of the fans it's because of what they make it it's because of what they yeah there's people playing football all around the world people kicking that soccer ball doing their thing but like that that that little and that's what i mean by the valuing i love that you said that because i not to be ominous about it but i just worry that we'll get to a place where there is no valuing there is no you know i do i do think of like as a child i love how many fights kids used to have in my school when we're talking about what do you want to be lots of fights what do you want to be i want to be this i'm going to be a fire i'm going to drive a fire car i'm there was this idea that society had that like all of these avenues can provide you with a value that is valorous in its pursuit.

1:30:48And then like now, and it's not the kids' fault, but a lot of the kids, you go, what do you want to be? And they'll be like, famous. Rich. Rich. And I'm like, what are we showing them and teaching them? Because rich and famous is a byproduct of doing a thing well, I often think. But they aren't aiming for that oftentimes. They'll go like, famous, rich, whatnot. And then a person who's in that position has to be like, oh, but what of that do you want? What of that are you looking for? What of that? You know what I mean? Yeah. And so I would love to know, like with your girls, do you have a preconceived notion?

1:31:18How do you think you're going to do it? Are you, like, are you already going, oh, I hope they would be this or not? Or are you seeing things in them? Because I'm sure you can't like resist it, but is there something where you go? With my girls, I'm doing the thing that I swore I would not, which is that I, all I, I'm obsessed with how well they'll do at sports and will there be good runners. and so I spent a lot of time scrutinizing their running form and I took I've decided my little one who is super focused and who by the way is ripped I mean it's a horrible thing to say about a two year old but I'm sorry she is ripped oh my god I've never seen a child like this she looks like and she loves like lifting heavy things and she's super kind of disciplined and we took her to the track and she got in her lane and ran the, she ran 200 meters in her lane at two.

1:32:17And stayed in the, there was lane discipline and she ran the curve hard and eased up on the straight. I mean, it was like - Instinctually. It was the single greatest moment of my brief parenthood career. So that's all I care about. Do they, you know, because you know, if you're running, you want to be a forefoot striker. You want, you should land on the front of your foot. Yes. So I've been looking very closely to make sure are the natural forefoot strikers they are. And I'm trying to make sense of, you know, are they quarter milers, half milers, or distance? You know, that's an important thing because I got to focus.

1:32:52And I'm terrified they're going to be good at the sports I don't want them to play. Like pickleball. Tennis. Well, tennis. I don't want the time suck sports. This is the big mistake one makes. swimming uh tennis uh gymnastics uh uh any of these things that require tons of travel and like six hour practices okay no you destroy the childhood yeah all right why are you doing that soccer fine i'd accept soccer because i think it would be fun to play but i really i mean track's perfect it's just ideal it's like one hour a day it's like fun hanging out with other runners. That's what I want for them.

1:33:36So that's all I do is I think about their running form, really. I love that you admit it. You're like, I turned into what I promised. I have become everything. I have become everything. Actually, this is something I wanted to ask you. So the podcast thing that you did, talking about trans women in sports. Yes, oh God, you should put your hand on your head. How ripped were they? because so talk me through this a little bit because i like you as a person i love your writing and i know you i think i know you as like the let me call you the artist separate from like the the human but when i was watching this i even said to eugene i was like this is like the least gladwellian way to handle a situation i was just like and then i was like do you think like this now because you have daughters do you do you think it shaped you explain to me what happened there did people get something wrong tell me what happened there four years ago five years ago There was a sports conference that happens every year.

1:34:33Yeah. A sports analytics conference. They were going to have a panel on trans participation in sports. And they said, do you want to be the moderator of the panel? Now, right there, any intelligent person would have said, of course not. There's zero upside to moderating a panel. This is a landmine. It's a landmine. Yeah. What does Malcolm say? Yeah, sure. So I'm the moderator of the panel. And there's a guy named, a South African, Ross Tucker, is the sports scientist who believes very strongly that trans women should not participate in the female category. And there are two, Joanna Harper and another people who are arguing the opposite side.

1:35:08I'm the moderator. And they tell me beforehand, do not get us in trouble, whatever you do. Just like get through this. I was like, all right, just get through this. So I sit there and the audience is like split in half, half or one. So whenever one side says something, and they go, roar, and they go, roar. It's just a minefield. I'm singing, I'm like, what did I get myself into? So we managed, there's a moment in this conversation when Joanna Harper, one of the pros, pro participation people, says something which would have been, you know, when you're interviewing someone and there are moments when someone says something which is an opportunity to jump in and like, it gets to the heart of the matter.

1:35:50Yeah, yeah, okay. She said something that got to the heart of the matter. and my instinct as a journalist was to say, oh, this is the moment. This is what people were, this is. And I said, as a man, I can say, it's too complicated. I don't, the crowd's nuts. I sit on my hands. Nothing happens. Do you remember what she said? Yes. She said to Ross Tucker, Ross, you have to let us win. And what she meant was, she was conceding the point that trans women have a genetic advantage over biological women. trans women have a genetic advantage over biological women. But what she was saying was, that's not the issue here.

1:36:30The issue is, it's a broader symbolic thing for trans rights. And it crystallized the whole argument because it was why the argument can't be won, because they're both after different things. One side are people who are trying to protect the purity of women's support, as they would say. And the other side is someone who's trying to make a human rights argument about a disadvantaged group. These are two arguments they're never, ever going to meet. And in that moment when she said that, it crystallized why this was an impossible problem to resolve. My inclination in that moment was to say, oh, I could have jumped on that.

1:37:04We could have had, we could have, I could have used this to explain the fact that this is an irresolvable argument. I don't say anything. Fast forward four years, Ross Tucker, who has, out of his place in Johannesburg, has this podcast, which is listened to by a very, very small number of people. It's a super, it's my favorite podcast. Super fascinating, nerdy podcast about the science of sport. Lots of rugby talk, lots of, you know, he did a whole episode once on shoes, which was amazing. So I'm on Ross's thing, and I say in a minute, we spend 45 seconds reminiscing about this panel. And I say to Ross, you know, that moment I really should have, I regret not, that would have been an incredible moment to jump in.

1:37:47Then we go on and talk about other things. And then I wake up and I'm like, I don't know what happened. They did five minutes on me on Sean Hannity. Oh yeah, you were everywhere. I was everywhere. No, you were everywhere. I had no idea what happened. I was like, what just, what's going on here? Yeah, no, you were everywhere. JK Rowling tweets at one point like, oh my goodness. And I was just paralyzed. I was like, nothing. I was reading all the stuff that was saying I said stuff they didn't say people are going nuts about it and I was like oh Jesus so I just shut up and you know every every time I see that happen there's like a like a thing inside me that like does like a you know because there's a there's a specific knowledge you have about how these situations unfold if you've been a part of it yeah I mean I've experienced this before where literally like I've woken up and half of the world has an opinion of me, then I'm like, wait, what did I say?

1:38:46And then it expands beyond what you've ever said or what you've ever done. And by the time, and it's that old Churchill quote, right? That a lie is halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to put its pants on. Helpless is a perfect world because you just sit there going like, wait, what? No, no. And it expands and it goes and it goes and it grows and it grows and it grows and it grows. And then now people are using it to say, you know, like people who are very anti-trans are like, ah, you see? He agrees. Gladwell agrees. And not only does he agree, he shows you that he's terrified of telling the truth.

1:39:18And I was like, Malcolm Gladwell's not terrified of telling the truth. That's a moderator on a panel. I mean, and they under strict instructions not to ruffle any feathers. And then made, I didn't think, I was on Ross Tucker's, I didn't think anyone would listen to Ross Tucker's podcast other than people who were, good for Ross. I mean, I love Ross. I think he's brilliant. And I've been following him for years, but I didn't think it would be, you know, who thought that podcasts recorded in Johannesburg or Cape Town? By the way, this is my, this is Johannesburg, Cape Town. Can I just pause on this for a moment, just subtly change the subject?

1:39:56There's this thing that always irks me, which is Sao Paulo, Rio, right? Sydney, Melbourne. Yes. Johannesburg, Cape Town. Yeah. In all these instances, people have this urge to say, yeah, Melbourne is New York and Sydney's LA. Sao Paulo is LA. No, Sao Paulo is New York. Rio is LA. Sao Paulo is New York. Or Johannesburg is New York and Cape Town is LA. Cape Town is not LA. The only thing that LA has in common with Cape Town is there's a beach and a lot of rich white people. That's it. That's it. The urge to make everything about that's New York and that's that just drives me to distraction. Have you never, is there no other way we can describe these places?

1:40:45I think it's a, is the word a heuristic? Is that what it is? It's just like a shortcut that people are using. But it's not even, they're only useful. Heuristics are useful when they actually have some basis in reality. In what universe would you go to Johannesburg and say, this feels like New York to me? No, I'll tell you how. Okay, I'll tell you how. Don't you dare join in with him. I'll tell you how. I'll tell you how. So I think what people mean by that is that the vibe and the energy of the cities are generally defined in one way versus another way. So, okay, I'll give you an example. So Johannesburg, New York, Sao Paulo, those are like the hubs of business.

1:41:23That's where the people consider life to be fast. That's where there is no lounging about. That's where there is no chilling. You know what I mean? There's this idea of like you come here, you do business, you get things going, you keep it moving, you got it. Rio. Cape Town, LA, eh, tranquilo. You know what I mean? It's like a, there's a feeling of like beach vibes and chilling. No, no, no. But it's all in relation to the other. Oh, I see. And by the way, I'm not, you're not crazy for thinking this. Cause I, I feel like that whenever people would say, it would always irk me when they would go like, it's the size of 20 elephants.

1:41:57Then I was like, Hey man, stop doing this. But Americans love this. The size of five football fields. I'm like, who's out here? So in that regard, I also, I'm just like, I don't get why you use it. But I do understand why people do it. Because those cities, let's put it this way. Yeah. If you loved LA and you were leaving it, you had to leave. Yeah. And you were going to go live in Johannesburg or Cape Town. And you loved everything about LA. Ah. You would be better off betting on Cape Town. You love Malibu. And if you love Rio, you would be better off betting on. And if you loved Sydney, that's all I think it is.

1:42:37Even if it's 51, 49. No, no, no. You would just, there's just a bet. You would have a better chance of. But this is, I will just say that this is a case where the heuristic gets in the way. A fact. I like heuristics when they help us. Cool. Get over the hump and sort of, all right, then we can go from there. But sometimes they block us and they get in the way. And I feel like this is getting in the way. And like— What do you think it's getting in the way of? It's getting in the way of appreciating another culture for what it really is. So as opposed to saying—what's offensive to me about this with Johannesburg and Cape Town, for example, because you guys know these cities very well, is like the people who use this heuristic don't know anything about this.

1:43:25and I think in expressing that heuristic are creating an obstacle to learning more. Okay. Right? It's like, oh, it's just New York is a way of saying, okay, I've satisfied my, so I can go, I'll see a couple of sites and I'll leave. As opposed to really like thinking in a complicated and interesting way about what is, this is a city unlike any other, all these cities are unlike themselves fundamentally. And the biggest obstacle is outsiders coming in and pretending they have an understanding of something that they have no understanding of. That's what I object to. Like, I don't pretend to understand Cape Town.

1:44:01I went there once. All I know is insane real estate, right? Yes, it is. And a nice beach. And that hill that you walk up and down. And that hill that you walk up and down. No, but you know, one thing I don't want to let go of, because I think you said something that's nuanced, difficult, and in my opinion, very important. you said something about the conversation that was happening on that stage when people were talking about trans women and sports and i think it's something that people don't like to acknowledge in many conversations that we have in society it's that people on two different train tracks acting like they're fighting about the same thing but they're not actually yeah because i that the way you the way you framed it there i was like yeah, people are arguing across each other.

1:44:53And so you can never reach a conclusion if you're not arguing. But you're not arguing the same thing. It's irresolvable. It's irresolvable. It's like there's two competing values and you have to pick which one in this moment you think is more important. And if you're going to pick one, then I think you have to accommodate the interest of the other side. In other words, if you're someone who thinks that trans women should not participate in the female category. You have to go out of your way to be an advocate for all other aspects of the trans agenda. That's your obligation. You have to be able to say, okay, I know that this is something that means a lot to you.

1:45:29I'm not going to back you on this, but I promise you I'll back you on everything else. And the flip side is also true. I think that if you are someone who wants that kind of participation, you have to go out of your way to acknowledge the importance that you're basically saying to people who care a lot about sports, and women's sports in particular, that I'm asking you to give up something here, and I will go, I will bend over backwards to make that sacrifice easier for you. There has to be that accommodation. And like I said, I don't, there's no, I, you know, I'm, my position on this is I acknowledge both sides.

1:46:03It's really hard. I happen to be a huge track and field fan. So it's really hard for me to make the sacrifice of giving up the female category in that same way. But I also understand that that's a problematic position to hold, particularly for a group that is under, that is imperiled. And so, you know, my answer is for the moment, because I also acknowledge that my mind might change, right? I was writing about Castor Semenya 10 years ago, and I had a different position than I had now. How did it change? The science of people at that moment did not understand the degree to which the question this is a technical question if i if i she was she's not trans she's dsd yeah she was intersex um the question was if i if you suppress the the testosterone of someone in that condition do you equal the playing do you level the playing field there was a belief back then that you could level the playing field now the science seems to be that there's still a considerable kind of historical advantage.

1:47:09So it's more complicated, right? But that side is, it's super complicated. All you can say is, if you're going to pick one side, you have to accommodate the other. I think, you know, for me, where it lies is, I often find that we're stuck in these situations and these conversations because we allow ourselves to suffer from a lack of imagination. and the reason i say that is because we act like what is always was and will always be yeah okay so i look at people now arguing hard the women's sports and i go if i was to rewind time and go back decades and decades and decades i would argue that those same people would be the ones going women can't do sports women and and we we would see that do you know i mean there was a time when women were stopped from getting into sport like people were like no a woman can't box a woman can't run a woman can't no no no no what do you mean women's sports women's public bathrooms that was the one that like blew my mind the most was in america people used to fight against women using a public toilet they're like no you go what are you doing that's for the men you go home what are you doing was that to stop them from not going too far no it was just like this idea of like it it just didn't make sense because of the way things were got it same thing with black people There was a time when people were like, so you're saying black people?

1:48:33Quick story. My dad at some point ran like a small little, restaurant would be a strong term. He cooked food for people and they came and like ate at it. It was a tiny little place in Johannesburg, just outside of Johannesburg actually. And I asked him, I was like, oh, what happened to the place? He's like, oh, it got shut down. I was like, what happened? He's like, they shut it down because I wanted to serve black patrons and white patrons. Then I immediately was like, oh, my father, the saint. Oh, what a legend. Then he was like, no, no, no. I don't care about the race thing at all. He's like, I don't care.

1:49:04He's like, it just didn't make sense to me. And he's a very like, he's Swiss German. He was like, this makes no sense. Black people and white people eat the same things and use the same cutlery and are the same. What are you doing? It's also terrible for a business. And what the apartheid government wanted is they wanted my father to build an additional bathroom just for black people because they were like, white people and black people should not use the same bathroom. this is scientific that's what they even said it's science and then my dad was like no sorry i'd rather shut down the restaurant because this is crazy to me right so he had his own reason which i guess aligned with good but he was he doesn't even accept it when i go that was a good choice he's like no it just doesn't make sense now when i come back to the world of imagination i go if we acknowledge that the things that are weren't always then we acknowledge the possibility that something new could be right the paralympics is an example yeah i remember when the paralympics first started like first first started people went this is crazy and they changed their minds now what you now have you seen how big the viewership is have you seen how big the endorsements are you go to a city or a town when the paralympics is on the the advertisements change there's major campaigns it's no longer even it's not a it just moves over to the paralympics you get what i'm saying and in the paralympics i found some of the most creative thinking because they went how do we to your point how do we find a measure of fair in in a thing that we've also invented in terms of fairness so they're like how do you say that a person missing a leg from the knee down who do they run against somebody with the same thing but what if that person has no legs but it's only from the hip or not from the hip or an eye or a hand.

1:50:53And they were like, you know what? We're just going to work to figure this thing out. We're just going to work to figure this thing out. Because I think they, whoever was organizing this, remembered the original idea of what the sport was supposed to be. It was a competition between people and they were participating in something that we've imagined. It's not real, guys. Like this is not, do you know what I mean? It's not gravity. The rules and the lines that we draw on a field. There's a wonderful quote to this very point that sport is the uh willing acceptance of arbitrary constraints yes that's exactly it so here's an here's an example i i was thinking of when i when i was going through this i went

1:51:34we make it seem like in some sports it's just man woman man woman right that's it but then in another sport we'll go no no it's not just man woman it's also age age is important Yes, the under-16 World Cup. Oh, why do we have a different category for... Well, they're younger. So who says they should get a different category? But we accept that, right? Boxing for me is probably one of the craziest. With the classes? Guys, at some point, and you can clearly see when people want to make concessions, they'll make them. If you think about it, technically, boxing should have just been you fight him, the winner is the winner.

1:52:12And then at some point, someone went, bro, I'm skinny, man. Come on, this is not fair. I can't beat that guy. And they didn't go like, well, then you're out. They went, all right, all right. We're going to make a class for these feather light people. You guys who are as light as feathers. I love that about boxing. But this is what I'm trying to say. But in running? No, but this is what I'm trying to say. Imagine we have a sport where you can come in weighing feathers all the way to heavy weight. We've given, and it's not one, it's not two, it's not three, it's not four, it's not five. the weight divisions do this, they do this, they do this.

1:52:48And no one would say to you like, that's crazy. That's so many divisions. I wonder why we never engaged in these conversations. You know who the worst offenders are? The swimmers who, they've just created a sport to maximize the number of medals they give out. There's like the 50 meter freestyle, the 100 meter freestyle. But that's what I mean. It's arbitrary. It's like, they're going to have before it's all over, like 10 different freestyles. Yes. The 150 meter freestyle. Can you do it like a butterfly? I have a whole standup bit about that where I'm just like, what is this? You're doing it less efficiently and you get more medals.

1:53:17No one ever uses those strokes outside of competition. That should tell you something. You see? So now what I'm saying about these conversations - You're getting strangely quiet on the question. No, no, no. But what I'm saying about these things is we forget, I think we forget that everything exists in the time that it exists and it becomes the norm because that's what it is in any given time but if we stop imagining possibilities then we're going to be tied to what is now but not what could ever be and so when i when that's funny enough that's like when i it's i think that's where you've influenced me in my life is like a gladwell way to think i always think is like yeah but but where was it and what is it and what is it trying to be the fundamental thing sport is trying to be is fair however some sports if we're honest are inherently unfair like Like the cast of Semenya thing.

1:54:08I remember going, people would say, oh, but she has an unfair advantage. I'd be like, yeah, so does LeBron James. If you are like seven feet tall, you have an unfair advantage in basketball. We should ban you from the sport. You know what I mean? If you are Michael Phelps, you have an unfair advantage that your body doesn't produce as much lactic acid. We should ban you from the sport, but we don't. We celebrate those people because we go, you're a freak of nature. Well done. But then when other people are the same freak of nature, then all of a sudden we, you know what I mean? And so I think that's like the thing that frustrates me in some of these moments is, I'm not saying there's a right way and a wrong way and a this way and a that way, but it's like, yo man, if you can find a way for more people to participate and you can make it as fair as possible, like the UFC does, like boxing does, I will fight, I will watch two skinny men fighting and then I will watch two of the bulkiest men fighting or for that matter, women in UFC.

1:55:06And I don't go like, yeah, this... You should have been the moderator of this panel. You would have survived much... Jesus, what was it? Do you have a good... What was it thinking? No good deed goes unpunished. No, but I actually think that's what it is. That's what it is. I think in institutions mainly, which I think sports federations and sports organization are big, long institutions that have institutional memory of how things were done. Exactly. Two things will always alter the cost of any institution. It's either the people dying out or commercialization coming in. Because I think when you add money, there's incentive now to accommodate and find creative ways to extract money from sponsors to sponsor the Paralympics.

1:55:53You're not wrong. You have the same with let's add more backstroke, side stroke, kickstroke, knee stroke. Yeah, because they would get rid of that if people stopped watching it and there was no money. They would be like, all right. Absolutely. And that's what people are finding a problem with now with the Olympics. People watch the Olympics and go, what am I watching? What is this? Yeah. Because also it doesn't equal out. So you see, if every discipline that exists in the Olympics, right, exists in the Paralympics, then I would be sold. If there was shooting and for, but with people with something that they normally wouldn't have, I would be fully in.

1:56:29But when I feel like there's concessions being made and I'm like, I'm not watching the full thing. And that's the thing that I find with soccer fans is they watch male soccer. Yeah. But then female soccer is, oh, it is not real soccer. They don't watch fully. You guys are not fully participant in football. Yeah, but I think you're missing the point. In female football. Are you? No, but I think you're missing the point, though. See, I think this is where I think you're missing the point. Right. There are some people like Joseph Opie, our friend. We had him on the podcast. He watches everything.

1:56:57Everything, everything, everything, everything. Female, under-16, young kid. But you see, before you run to that and you go like, oh, a football fan is inconsistent because they watch men's soccer, but they don't watch women's soccer. I also don't watch other leagues. I don't watch the Turkish League. They've got great teams, Galatasaray, Besiktas. They've got great teams that I see in the Champions League. I don't watch the Portuguese League. I don't watch the Italian League. I don't watch the Serie A. I don't watch the South African League. there's many leagues that I don't watch so I don't think we can quickly say oh you're you're not supporting women's sport because you don't watch that but you also don't watch other leagues do you get what I'm saying I think the more important thing to ask ourselves is why people are or aren't allowed to just like be part of a thing before we even get to commercialization because I'm not saying that everybody must watch the same thing the same what I'm saying what I'm saying is if a skinny ass man is allowed to be a boxer, a man who weighs less than a bag of cement is allowed to be a professional boxer, a man that I can pick up and throw to the other side of the room.

1:58:01He'll beat me in a fight boxing, but I can lift him. If that person gets accommodated, why can we not accommodate a trans woman is what I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. I've never thought of boxing as the most egalitarian. Any human being can dream of Growing up and being a boxer Can I tell you something? Golf is one of the most egalitarian sports ever invented I know you hate it But it's one of the most egalitarian I hate golf courses Courses, of course No, no, no Almost let the PGA come in for you As if you haven't been in enough trouble Trevor, I'm in enough trouble And you can speak your mind, Malcolm You don't say that we scared you You can speak your mind No I look at golf Golf has one of the craziest systems ever invented The handicap system where you as a golfer who has just started can go and play against somebody who's a professional and you can beat them on the same course, hitting the same ball.

1:58:57How did they do that? They adjusted the scoring system to account for what your level is versus what this other person's level is. It's beautiful. It's beautiful and it's imaginative because what golf could have easily done is said, no, that's how it works. But they realized in the strangest egalitarian way, which no one thinks of as golf being because it's like the rich sports, etc. They went, we want people to be able to have as much fun as possible playing with and against whoever. Yes, but there's a difference between hitting something and hitting someone. Yeah, but what I'm saying is you can...

1:59:28A 19-year-old can hit a ball same as a 65-year-old. Not true. But then, no, I'm saying that it's a ball that they're hitting. No, but it's not true. They're punching to their faces. Yes, but what I'm saying is you can make those... That's exactly what I mean by accommodations. Why do we have a youth division? Why do we have a seniors division? Why did we even do that? I can tell you now, a seniors division did not always exist in sports. And then it did. Enter commercialization. So that's what I mean by imagination is I go, if we think to ourselves that it stops where we are currently in time, I don't care what it is, technology, education.

2:00:03Then I go like, man, then we've become that homogenous society. We've become that high school that all thinks the same way. Like I go There is You can find a way If you believe That you can find a way I'm not saying It'll be easy I'm not saying It'll be obvious But if you say no If your answer is No completely Then I'm like No to skinny men Fighting Soft men In boxing No Yeah But what I'm saying is What I'm saying is We can create a category Where skinny men Fight skinny men And that's what they've done And so I go Then how are we And we can Which category do you think We should create now To solve everything else Oh no You see to lie and say that I have the answer now?

2:00:41I don't have it. You know what I love about you? Your dimples, one. And you're going to say that. I'm going to say, where am I?

2:00:53No, but that's exactly what I mean. I go, I don't. But to your point, we can't get there if we don't have the messy bumbling along discussion. This season in the Premier League, I don't know about all the leagues The rules changed Right Do you know how old football is as a sport? But the rules changed now They said if a goalkeeper holds the ball For longer than 8 seconds It's now a corner kick No way Yeah, I didn't grow up with those rules 8 seconds He acts like he cares I love it, that's defined as changing the game It changes everything 8 seconds? Yeah We're shaved off 8 seconds from the hogging Yes Wait, so that wasn't a thing before That wasn't a thing before So the goalkeeper was allowed The goalkeeper could hold the ball once they caught it.

2:01:40And still do that thing off. Technically, you were just supposed to get rid of it, but there was no time. The ref would just be like, you took too long. But they made it a rule now. Now I'm saying, if an old sport like football can still introduce new rules in 2025, then I think all sports can look at introducing ideas that can include everyone. I don't think a kid who has one leg, yeah, let the kid run. Let's find a way for that kid to run. No, technically they... Yeah, but you can find a way for them to run. Yeah. That's what I'm saying is magical for me. There was this thing I remember, I love video games.

2:02:12And I remember when I was at Microsoft, I've worked with them for a while in the hardware and all of that stuff. One of my favorite things was helping them think about controllers that kids with disabilities could use. And they were showing me this stuff. They'd bring a kid in who has a disability, and the kid would go like, I now use my feet to play Street Fighter, which seems ridiculous. It seems crazy. And then you see them and you're like, damn, you know what I like in this moment? You're a gamer and I'm a gamer. the point of a controller wasn't that you could only play a game with if you had hands the point of a controller was that it helped you to control something that was happening on the screen and once we realized I feel like the moderator five years ago you feel like Malcolm?

2:02:56kids with disabilities must be outside playing with other children now they're finding ways to play more inside by themselves but that's not the point no they're not playing by themselves most of their kids are online And now if you're the only kid - So other kids with disabilities are online. What I'm saying is, if you can't be online with your friends who are online, you're now isolated. They changed the rules in a way that allowed the person who previously had a disability to no longer have a disability. And so what I'm saying is, if we are going to live in a simplistic binary world, so should trans women compete with women?

2:03:28Then I'm like, why are you making it seem like there's only two? And I mean this honestly, like as categories. So you'd want to have a trans category? This is how crazy it would be. Imagine if you rewound time. There was someone who said, people who swim butterfly shouldn't be able to swim with people who swim. And they were like, yeah, let's just do butterfly category and a breaststroke category. Why is it in your voiceovers people who are stopping things sound boring and the people that - Because people who stop things are boring. That let things happen. They're like, yeah, yeah. Because people who stop things are boring, Eugene.

2:03:58That's why. We've got to imagine, bro. You've got to imagine. Yeah. Okay, let's imagine it. No, but you've got to imagine. to stop saying yeah because that's you know why Disney movies that's why I have those voices it all comes back it does though it's Disney movies they've ruined us it's Disney movies Malcolm feels like he was in the part where he was watching Snow White and there was a rat and there was 20 minutes long he was like oh this was the cat and the mouse that went off for 20 minutes I loved that with the zig zag okay so wait wait otherwise otherwise otherwise so now before we let you go yes who is your favorite between the two animated characters oh oh I can't answer why am I having such difficulty no I'm just asking no I told you I said it was Peppa Pig's grandfather Peppa Pig's grandfather who brought back yes Peppa Pig's grandfather is my reigning current and it might be I'm also fond of Maleficent who my daughter describes as magnificent which is so great you know she's the witch and what is she the witch in which one uh she's got the curly she's got the horns yeah what is isn't yeah maleficent it's no way it's no way is she from no she's in um sleeping beauty oh she's in sleeping beauty yes and for some reason so today my daughter went to school in a dress that was festooned with just just with maleficent huh i don't know who what has she watched the spin-off or she just likes her as the villain well she's fast which what happens is every time maleficent comes on the screen who she calls magnificent she um she turns to me he goes and i'm not speaking she goes hush daddy don't say anything she doesn't want she's so riveted by the possibility of drama involving maleficent that she wants to make sure that i don't step in and like rain on her parade meanwhile she's watching like seven times i'm like i don't saying anything i'm just sitting here but um no she's quite militant in her uh in her watching of sleeping beauty what's your favorite cartoon character me yeah of all time yes ah you now you put me on the spot because i haven't been watching them recently like malcolm has yeah but old school new school let me think let me think oh do you have a favorite absolutely who remy from ratatouille oh that's an interesting choice i mean why it was like i can create a human joystick Huh, I see what you did there.

2:06:30I see what you did there. I think that it's the ability to stop him. I see what you did there. Nicely done. Thank you. Nicely done. You know what I like about you? You're willing to admit when I'm right. Malcolm Gladwell, thank you for joining us. Thank you. This is very fun. This has been a lot of fun. I hope to see you again. Yes. This is really great. Thank you. Thank you.

2:06:53That was fun. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jess Hackle Rebecca Chain is our producer Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown Random Other Stuff by Ryan Harduth Thank you so much for listening Join me next week for another episode of What Now

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