Mehdi Hasan: The Freedom to Speak

21:36She moved to the UK, right? So the first half of our marriage, she lived in the UK. And she was like, when are we moving to the US? And I was like, what am I going to do in the US? I'm a brown left-wing Muslim. Who's going to hire me? Right. So when I ended up working at the HuffPost, which was owned by Arianna Huffington at the time, AOL. It was like an American company. So I was like, all right, let's see if I can make a shift. So I ended up here in 2015 thinking, I'll be here for a couple of years. That was the agreement. I'll come here for a couple of years. That's what everyone says. And we'll cover the Hillary Clinton presidency.

22:05best laid plans now I I am not a fan of blaming people for things that most would argue out of their control but just in the little time we've been speaking I've noticed a pattern okay I supported Liverpool Hassan started supporting Liverpool because Mehdi Hassan started supporting Liverpool and then Liverpool went through its worst period ever yeah Mehdi Hassan moved to America golden escalator happened and the golden escalator happened and now the rest is history so what should I do next I mean you tell me I'm gonna buy a plane ticket to Tel Aviv

22:42can I ask you a question can I ask you a question I mean I'm here just to answer do you think no you're not you're here to have a conversation nah conversation you're here to have a conversation I've got a few for you we've got unbuttoned there's no ties here there's no corporate overlords we're all free we could all start freestyle rapping right now can we you know what you should do I'm not very good at that let's talk about Liverpool this guy this guy you see you this guy there is one tenet of this organization please please Eugene no no but like I what I mean obviously that's a joke you know I think more about like your life and as a person like who who was Mehdi before all of this like how did you get into this world first of all you seem and not even seem you are fully like you fit fully into this position i i can't imagine you not doing what you do no can i you you're passionate you're well informed you are you see when you tell me i don't take time off from this i believe you i don't go like this guy's just saying that i'm like no this guy you sleep it you you drink it you think it you you know what i mean yeah it's a problem was that always you no when did that become you it's a good question um i guess with the trump phenomenon trump is sui generis like him taking on my life i don't think any other politician.

24:00When I was in the UK, I don't think there was a single, I covered UK politics for a living when I lived in the UK. Okay, but let's go back. How did you get into that? What were you doing before that? Why journalism? I've been a political journalist all my life. Yeah, but why? Where did this start? As a little kid, were you on the playground like, oh, I'm going to cover the politics of the Labour Party and what's happening with the Tories? Not as a little kid, but maybe 15, 16. Yeah, I get very political at that age. What politicized you? What were you seeing? That's a good question. I mean, it wasn't a very interesting period.

24:27This is the mid 90s. Politics was very quiet in those days. Remember, it was Clinton, Blair, end of history, all of that bullshit. I don't know why I got so political. It was a very boring time. I don't know why I got into politics at the most boring time. My dad was very political. In what way? He loved politics. Old Indian men love politics in general, right? They just want to talk about politics at any event, weddings, funerals. They want to talk about what's happening in India, Pakistan, D.C., London. That's just a fact. Ask anyone. And often the conversation comes back to the role of the CIA, right?

24:56So that's how most... Sounds like your kind of guys, Eugene. Let's go. You need to hang out with Indian men circa 50 to 75. So my dad was very political all his life. He moved to the UK in 1966 and was obsessed with British politics. He was obsessed with British prime ministers, the Labour Party. He's obviously obsessed with Indian politics. So I grew up around him talking about politics, hearing about politics, watching the news. The news was on 24-7 in our house. Okay. So when I ended up being on the news as a host, for my dad, it was amazing. Most Indian parents were kind of disowning any child who became a journalist not a doctor doctor, lawyer, engineer you can't be a journalist and my sister and I both end up as journalists your sister as well yeah my mother is not happy about this my mother is a doctor my father is an engineer like a classic Indian couple and my mother to this day is like stop talking about Trump why don't you go be a lawyer or do something different why don't you make something of yourself why don't you make something of yourself why don't you be a lawyer if you want to argue be a lawyer that's what she used to say to me when I say you used to say to me like yesterday morning so she hasn't given up But my father was very proud of the fact that I was a journalist doing journalism, politics.

26:00He loved it. He loved it. Even, he passed away last year, but even to his last days, anytime we spoke, he'd be like, are they really going to run Joe Biden again? Really? So you basically found yourself in his, like, this was like his league. You know, it's like, it's the Premier League or the NFL or the NBA of his, you found, but But correct me if I'm wrong, it seems then that the two of you, it probably brings back good memories for you then. Yes. Because most people would have gone away from politics if it didn't bring back good memories. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, but it was a great bonding moment.

26:36But that's what I'm not. We didn't talk about Liverpool. My dad wasn't a football fan. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Anytime he'd call me, he'd be like, oh, I watched this video you did. I'm not sure I agree with what you said there about Trump or whatever it is. Yeah. So that was always an interesting, even until the very end, that was what he wanted to talk about. He was very upset. Any time I'd visit him, he always had the news on 24-7. So you'd be like, oh, this happened, this happened. Do you know what's happening? He was super informed because he just read The Guardian all day, watched Channel 4 News in the UK and CNN or whatever it is, Indian news.

27:02So that's in the household. That's there around me. And then generally I wrote about this in a book I wrote about debating, which is I grew up in a house where we were encouraged to debate and argue and question and dispute. Like my dad and I talk about this in the book. In the late 1980s, Salman Rushdie publishes the Satanic Verses, right? Muslims go crazy it's a blasphemous book it's insulting the prophet which it did Ayatollah Khomeini that was the one that's where the Khomeini the fatwa the fatwa on it he should be executed and at the time people do you know the story Eugene? oh yeah please tell the story because a lot of people I don't think just know it Salman Rajdi very famous Indian British novelist award winning novelist writes a novel which is kind of fictionalized version of some Islamic history as he understood it in which the prophet is portrayed in horrific ways as a baddie and Muslims being very sensitive got very very upset to the point where at the time, the Ayatollah in Iran, the Supreme Leader of Iran then, Ayatollah Khomeini, put out a very famous fatwa saying the punishment is death for this kind of writing.

27:59Rajni had to go into hiding. He's still today, he got attacked a few years ago. Yeah, he got stabbed. Again. So it's never gone away, even after the death of Khomeini. And a lot of Muslims burned the book, even in UK town, not just in the Middle East. In protest, yeah. So it was a huge controversy and Muslims then got attacked, of course, by Western politicians. You people are so backward and barbaric and look at you, You don't believe in free speech. And my dad, in the midst of all this late 80s, I'm like 10 years old. My dad buys the satanic verses, reads it, and then puts it on the bookshelf right by the dining table.

28:29So every time we have people over, they're like, what is going on? They're furious. All my dad's friends are furious. Why have you got this book? Here, why would you have it? And my dad would say, have you read it? And if you haven't read it, how can you be mad about it? And that mentality, which was very provocative in the Muslim community, is something that I remember vividly. This idea that you shouldn't just blindly follow the crowd. You shouldn't just take what's given to you from on high. You've got to question everything, no matter how sacred.

29:00Did you read the satanic verses? No comment. I did, I did. And it's awful, but at least you read it. I mean, I don't read it as a piece of literature. What do I know about literature? Salman Rushdie is an award-winning novelist. I'm not. That's not the point. The point was, was it historically accurate? Was it offensive? all of that stuff. But the point is, obviously, I don't support, obviously, killing people for their views, obviously. But I understood at the time, I understood why it had become such a wedge issue. You want to talk about culture wars today. I mean, that was a culture war issue.

29:30Yeah, that was viral before viral. Exactly. Yeah, pre-internet, pre-days. And then it obviously gets rolled into everything else that then happens in the subsequent decades in the relation between Islam and the West. I love that you were encouraged to argue and debate by your parents. Yeah, because a lot of Indian parents are like, Shut up No I mean a lot of Parents in general Chappal You heard the phrase chappal? No what is that? So in the park culture Anyone watching here Speaks order to me Chappal means I'm going to get my sandal Chappal is a sandal Oh it's done That's just like chappal You're going to get it Actually you've just Taught me a new one now Thank you so much Chappal Watch your is the chappal Chappal I'm in I've got it for you Chappal Every time you say something Anti-Liverpool Chappal I'm coming for you Double chappal Could you debate at home?

30:21I don't think there was time for For debating Just as you knew What you were told Was what was going to happen anyway I think if But if you answered bad Did you get slapped? No no no no I think if you grew up With a single mom There's no There's no one to defer to Okay Oh that's interesting I think when there's A debate happens When there's someone to go Write Write Talk to your wife Yeah when there's an audience To debate for Now, if someone goes, at six o 'clock, we're doing this thing. And you're like, but at six. And then they leave the room. Yeah, it's the law. It is what it is. It's just the law.

30:52Yes. It is what it is. Because when we saw debating is when we went to white kids' houses. Yeah, that was. And we saw the back and forth. Yo, yo, yo, yo, yo. What do I need to do that? Yo, yo, yo, yo. The day Andrew, my friend, told his dad, he said, come to dinner. And then he was like, dad, we're still playing. And I remember my body Getting tense You can't say that? Yeah Yeah because I was like I was waiting for his dad And Andrew like He fully turned back So his dad came to the door And he was like Boy it's time for dinner And then he was like Dad we're still playing And he didn't swear or anything He wasn't like rude But he just said a thing That I would have never thought of He was like Dad we're still playing Right we're playing Come on and conquer Right And he was like Dad we're still playing And then his dad like Walked off The whole period Between us going to dinner And the dad coming I sat there tense waiting for the backlash yeah no no I was like he turned his back fully I was like how is he so he's like oh Blake and then he was like back here and then I was like this the whole time now yeah on standby because you like you can't just you can't head on a swivel that to me was not a concept that ever existed but I think probably in hindsight it went too far with me in a debating because now I'm like crazy now my wife my kids my friends my family my colleagues have to put up with me being perpetually argumentative like I can't help But you enjoy it.

32:09People have to remind me. But you enjoy it. Yeah, but they don't. It doesn't matter whether I enjoy it. The people around me are like, shut the fuck up. So when you got older, your mom was like, yep, you can have him now. Yeah, yeah, 100%. 100%. I'm sure my mother would say that to my wife. That's what someone said to me when I was in India on my first trip, actually. We were at a restaurant in New Delhi. And it was like a crew of people that's, you know, friends of friends that are similar. And one of the guys, we got into a debate. And I was having so much fun And then one of the other people He worked with Didn't know that I was having A good time And then he came And like stopped And he's like And he's like Trevor he's like I have to apologize to you You have to know in India We debate for fun Trevor Please don't be I was like yo My friend I've found my people That's all I was like I have found This is the most fun I've ever had Because we also argue For fun in that way But I guess depending On which culture you go to You just wanted to tell that story So you could do the accent again No my friend I do accents for every culture I know But I love your Indian accent Every single culture And by the way I don't do accents I like his Indian accent I do the people This is a common misconception People have about me So you imitate the person That you've met before Because I don't I'm terrible at accents Are you?

33:17I'm terrible at I promise you I'm terrible at accents But I can remember How people speak Does that make sense? Yes it does So if you said to me Like do an English accent I'll be all over the place Oh what you Go to fuck I don't even So who's a famous English person you can Well I can do A certain person Who's on television Quite a lot and that's like no you know who that is who and our next no no it's not it's not you who okay I'll do it I'll do it properly it's so bad that neither of us I'll do it properly hold on let me get into it I'll do it properly hold on because I haven't I've got to think of him doing it properly hold on give me a second give me a second give me a second give me a second hold on hold on I haven't lived there for 10 years I don't watch British TV yeah but don't be biased you're going to think of yourself clear your thoughts breathe okay chakra let yourself go you got it go on okay let me also channel him Let me get him completely Well that's bullshit Absolute bullshit And now Time for our next story Jeremy Clark then?

34:15Yeah It veered into Jeremy Yeah yeah It wasn't supposed to It wasn't supposed to Because the bottom part Was more Jeremy than him Jeremy left at Gambon Yeah it was It was And that's why The Bugatti shot Who is it? Yeah that's you right I went into a bit of Jeremy Gambon Who did you begin with? It was supposed to be Oliver John Oliver Oh Yeah yeah It's not a good John Oliver. No, no, no. It's because you're throwing me off right now. By the end of this, I'm going to do you. And then it's going to be over for you. If you do me like you did John Oliver, it'll be like any British person. Like 60 million Brits.

34:47Trevor can't do any of them. Clarkson, Oliver, Hassan. And your defense will be, well, I didn't know Mehdi was British. I thought he's just Mehdi. He is just Mehdi. Your accent has probably changed a lot. It has. I'm a bit of a sponge. So I pick up stuff wherever I go. So people make, my British friends, when I go back, make fun of me. but when I go back I speak British but when I'm with Americans you code switch I code switch a bit and then British people who are in my presence will say that's weird you don't talk like that when you talk to us do they say you sound American when my wife moved to the UK she had known me for like I don't know how many years before we got married when she moved to the UK and saw me in my habitat natural habitat David Attenborough talking to British she's like who the hell are you she said you don't talk to me like that I said because you're Texan so when I go to India I become a bit more Indian I speak a little bit with a touch when I speak to elders in my community.

35:34I mean, I just am a bit spongy. No, but you can't not be. With my grandma, think about it, Eugene. You, as Eugene, the way you speak to us here. Yeah. No, this is what people don't understand. People like to think of it as switching. I think this is an academic use of, you know, an academic understanding. Oh, you're code switching. No. If you have ever lived in multilingual cultures, you have to learn how to speak different languages to different people, even in the same language. so if you think about it the Zulu that you would speak with your friends is not the Zulu you would speak to your grandmother even though it's still Zulu the way you would say the words the way you would your inferences yeah your accent even your tone has to change completely so what I'm saying is sometimes people take for granted that anyone who's grown up in a world where there are multiple languages learns how to speak the language of the people they're speaking to it's not just like being that's what I say like when people say They're like, oh, you're code switching.

36:31It's like, yeah, on an academic level, I understand that. But it's not. I couldn't talk to my grandmother with this accent. My grandmother. But it's not conscious, right? That's the key point. I'm not doing it consciously. I don't know I'm doing it until people point it out to me. Yeah, no, no, you don't. And also, here's the other interesting thing. For me, it's a double whammy. Because not only is it, okay, I'm living in America, and I have family of a British American, I have kids, one of whom grew up in the UK, one mostly grew up in the US. So their accents are different? My older daughter still has her solid, not solid, I'd say 60 % British, 55, 60.

36:58She kept on to it in the last 10 years, but my younger one came very young. So what I would say here is I'm also on TV. I also did three years of primetime American television. So just, I had to switch. So I would have people, producers would say, if you use that phrase, no one knows what the hell you're saying. So I also had to therefore consciously switch times. I would want to use a British euphemism or phrase and my team would look at me blankly and say, no one knows what that means. I'd go, really? We've never heard of that phrase. Never heard of that phrase. I'd say, you've never heard of that phrase?

37:24And then I would start doing things like, Like I'd be on TV talking about, I know, the war in Ukraine. I remember MSNBC and I'd say, they fired missiles. And then people would say, and then friends of mine would say, you say missiles now? You don't say missiles? And they'd be like, I don't know. I don't even know. In fact, telling you the story right now, I'm not sure. As I'm talking to you, I'm not sure which one's British, which one's American. Mine was controversy and controversy. So I slowly, it took me four years. MSNBC, two and a half years. And last year I switched to controversy. Yeah.

37:55I said controversy. Controversy for years. Yeah, controversy for years. And then I switched it to controversy. Yeah. So it goes. Yeah, it goes back and forth. It's just one of those things that happens. It's life. But I still say tomato. You can't change that one though. I can't change that one. Tomato is a weird one. Eugene says water, but even in South Africa. I say water a little bit American. He says water even in South Africa now. Even when I'm not thirsty, I say it. Can I get some water? Can I have some water? Can I get some water? No, can I have a water? That is exactly how you say it. That's a good point.

38:22You see a water, you're getting nothing. You're getting a noun. Eugene is slowly transforming into a white American woman How long have you lived in the US? You have not two days You have not

38:35I came here on Wednesday And I got a water on Thursday Don't go anywhere Because we got more What Now after this

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41:07So let me ask you a question. Is there ever a part of you that worries about being left and having an opinion and then also saying that you're in the news? What do you mean? so for a long time people said if you're a journalist oh you can't like have an outside just like the supreme court you're supposed to be yeah you know you're supposed to be was always bullshit now we know it's bullshit i think the media i mean the media doesn't exist like that anymore yeah look where we're sitting we're just sitting in independent spaces we're doing our thing we're not bound by these old conventions and the old conventions shouldn't even bind the people still in mainstream media i would argue it's killing our mainstream media right now because people are fed up with being patronized by people who pretend that they're but neutral or impartial when we can clearly see they're not.

41:49I would rather have, you know, there was a moment recently where Brendan Carr, who runs Donald Trump's FCC, he's like a censorship czar. Yeah. He was at a media conference, I think it was a semaphore conference in DC. Somebody started sending me a clip saying, Brendan Carr is talking about you. I was like, you don't want to be talked about by Trump's censorship. You don't want to be on that radar. Right. And I tune in and somebody sends me the clip and I watch it and he's basically complaining that lots of mainstream journalists have left the media and then now they're all like anti-Trump And he's like, see, see, we told you the media was biased against Trump.

42:19And then he goes, at least with Mehdi Hassan, he hates Trump, but I like him because I know where I stand with him. He's very open about his biases, and then you can just read or watch whatever he does. And I was like, A, that's a good point. B, I got to take a shower now. C, I don't really want to be on Brendan Carr's radar because I'm very happy with my life here and I don't want to be deported. So there's that thing where there is this sense of now people in independent spaces, we're seeing their real colors, whatever. But my position has always been, I would rather people put their biases on the table and then just be fair, right?

42:52So when I do an interview, I have a Trump person on, or I have a Israeli person, or I have someone who I disagree with from whatever government in the world, someone from the Saudis, someone, whatever it is, everyone knows I'm critical of them. Right, right. But I still try and be fair. I don't try and edit them in a bad way. I make sure they get enough time to speak and answer. I don't try and lie about, you know, in the question. That for me is more important. That for me is fairness. not this fake left right pick a point in the middle and say i'm impartial that bullshit's got to go no one accepts that anymore it was never real to begin with it's now become very apparent that there is no kind of fake impact the view from nowhere they teach you at german journalism schools you're outside the uk that's like a that was like a big one i think it's even bigger in the u.s to be honest no no ways no ways maybe the bbc yes okay yeah that's what i mean okay bbc but the u.s journalism schools just churn out people saying stuff like this and i think it's It's got to end now.

43:43Okay, got it. And, you know, well, the BBC, America and Britain have this role reversal, right? So in the UK, we have very, very impartial media, very, very heavily regular. We don't take a position. We're not tabloid. We're not sensationalists. And then you have all these really tabloidy newspapers, really, really outspoken, provocative, the sun and the mail and all of that stuff. Yeah, that's true. And in the US, it's the reverse. You have all these crazy cable channels, opinionated fire, you know, outspoken fire brands on cable and on TV. And then you have like really, really state New York Times, the Washington Post.

44:13Very boring headlines. We must keep our impartiality. So it's a weird reversal. But I feel like this world is more, it's, I could be wrong, but I feel like it suits you more. Like you strike me as like a Wild West kind of guy. Yeah, it was weird that I ended up at MSNBC, to be honest. When I was at Al Jazeera, where I was before, and I also wrote for The Intercept, people would say to me, because I'd lived in the US for a few years, I'd gone viral a lot. I turned up on The Daily Show with your good self, I remember. And people were saying to me at the time, oh, it's only a matter of time until CNN or MSNBC hire you.

44:42And I was like, don't be silly. Why would they hire me? I don't fit that persona. I don't do what the other hosts do. They're never going to hire someone like me. And then I was wrong. To be fair, MSNBC, Phil Griffin, who was president at the time, did come and offer me a job. And I had three and a half very successful, fun years there. Running my mouth. So in that sense - Running my mouth. Is that a Britishism? No, no, no. I just liked it. I just liked that you said that. Running my mouth. That's what I do. I run my mouth. That's all I do in life. It's like no other skills in life. That's not true, man.

45:10That's not true. you're an informer for the police I knew there was something something weird you know this guy wait na just when I think I couldn't love you anymore one thing a journalist never does just when I thought I couldn't love you anymore just never reveals their sources yeah you can't run your mouth when it's your sources no but this is what I mean I think you are like many British people you will you'll try and dampen your achievements or what you do. Like British people are very quick to be like, I don't. Then you're like, but you're the king of England. No, please. I just wear a crown sometimes.

45:49You know what I mean? Americans are much more. Yeah, no. You do a shit ton of research. I don't think I know many more people who just know stats off the top of their head the way you do. Like you, did you study like this? Did you? No. When you say study like this, When you were a kid, did you remember everything in school? Yes, I had a very good memory. Yeah, you can recall information. Not anymore. Now I'm old and great. But my daughter has a very good memory. It's inherited that. When I was young, yes, I had a very good memory. I could remember, you know, put things on a table. I could remember it.

46:25Names, places. Even today, I still remember obscurity. My wife will make fun of me that I will forget kids' birthdays, but I'll remember when the Six Day War was in 1967. So that kind of random stuff is still in here. I have too much shit in here. You know, Sherlock Holmes is like, the mind palace. You must clear things out. Like, I don't clear shit out. So that's why I'm now in a situation where I can't remember, like, friends' names and stuff. But I can tell you, you know, which president was assassinated in the 19th century. You should name your friends. Yeah, you should then name your friends after, like, major tragedies.

46:53Yeah, name your friends after tragedies in history, and then you'll never forget them. And then just tell them it's like your nickname for them. But look, I also now do have to do a lot of prep. So I told you, I mentioned I wrote this book, and there's a chapter in the book on preparation. I do try and make it clear, especially to young people, because they ask me this question, especially budding journalists like how do you do what you do like I don't wing it people think you wing things I don't think you wing anything this one I'm winging because I walked into this conversation with no prep normally I'd be like what's Trevor going to ask me and I'll be ready and I walked into some blind there's no ready I didn't even know you were going to be here that's how we surprised you yeah yeah I didn't even know where we started bam here we go that's what we're doing Mehdi Hassan caught us guard ambushed so normally I prep a lot that's what we're going to put here Mehdi Hassan ambushed and we're going to play that clip first I didn't even know what you guys were going to ask.

47:37I can't believe you guys said this shit about me. Who are you? You look different from when we were on The Daily Show. Where did the hair come from? What are you talking about? You had a suit. It was a very different conversation. We talked about Pete Buttigieg. I remember that. We had a conversation. It was a presidential debate, live debate. Damn, you really have an insane memory. I mean, I was the guest. Why would you remember? You had like a thousand guests. No, but that's not the point. But I do remember what you talked about, yes. But that's my point. Because it was political. I remember politics for some reason.

48:03Do you have a tough time forgiving people in life? Yes Well I forgive But I don't forget Yeah but that's part of Forgiving I think No I can't Forgetting Yeah part of No no no I'll tell you why Okay you tell me Why you don't think so Look If I forgive you I don't have to forget What you did I'm not saying have to Yeah but I'm saying You said it's part of it I argue My belief is When you forgive somebody I didn't forget what you did When you I'm saying An hour ago When you forgive somebody Is In my opinion Yeah To your point the part of your brain that is holding on to the memory yeah let's go in my opinion this is only my opinion i'm not a neuroscientist this is not medical advice this is not anything i did i'm winging this for the record this is my opinion 100 i believe when you forgive your brain or something happens in your mind and you're more likely to forget is my opinion i think that's a good point so i find i find people generally people who have amazing memories like this generally struggle to forgive.

49:03It is a problem that I do remember things that I should just let go. That is a problem. Just everything, personal, professional, political. I mean, actually, it helps me in my journalism because the number one problem in this country is people have short memories. And that's why people in power get away with shit. Donald Trump. I gave you an example about the war thing. Oh, he's anti-war. Then I have to remind people, okay, remember what happened between 2017 and 2021? No, because we all forgot it. I spent all of 2024 listening to Americans tell me, ah, you know what? If Donald Trump comes back, we survived him once.

49:28We can survive him again. no we fucking didn't survive and half a million people died from COVID but you've forgotten that right because Americans have the memories of goldfish like 8 seconds 9 seconds done you know goldfish actually have good memories do they it's a myth is that an urban legend it's a myth should have fact checked that before I put it in the book we should check it now I put it in my book it's too late we should check it right now it's in a book 2 years old I remember reading this and maybe I read the wrong thing am I a fact checker should have checked it no no no we should read it because we should check it up now but I do believe that the goldfish thing is actually a myth if it is a myth if it is a myth then we should replace goldfish and we're just Americans should play the role of goldfish.

49:58That's not fair to Americans. I don't agree. I should be the phrase. No, no, seriously. Americans have no memory. No, that's not true. I'm taking my American hat off and wearing my immigrant British hat as an outsider. That's not true. 100 % true. 100 % true. People do not remember what happened last week. No, no, no. And that's why everyone gets to reinvent themselves, rehabilitate themselves. So the fact is, goldfish actually have memories that span months, not seconds. Studies have shown that they can be trained to respond to signals for food. Months. Remember feeding times and navigate mazes, retaining that knowledge for at least several months.

50:28Trevor, I wish Americans had the memory of months. No. Because we don't. Let me tell you something, Mehdi. Let me tell you something. Here's where I'll disagree with you. Please. I think it is unfair to say Americans do not have bad memory anything. I think any person who exists in an environment where they're constantly waterboarded with a media that is distracted, they are the people. So I'll give you an example. In South Africa. You're saying they're being overloaded. In South Africa, we had a commission, right? Is it still ongoing? Yeah. There you go. Right. So we have a commission that's on corruption.

51:04If you talk to the average South African, they are fully focused on this commission. Yeah. How many months has it been going for? It's been long now. It's been almost a year now. Almost a year. There's no South African who's forgotten about it. There's no South African who doesn't talk about it. It is fully in the zeitgeist. but I argue because the South African media has given it that it is on television every single day that they're on. It's on YouTube. The clips go out on YouTube. The clips go out on TikTok. People are seeing it. So all I'm saying is, all I'm saying is, I'm not quick to say Americans have a bad memory.

51:37I've watched the news in America. I've seen a story that is breaking on a Monday and by Wednesday they've moved on. And I'm like, how have you moved on? That's a fair point about, especially the Trump era, where the strategy is, right, what's the phrase? To flood the zone with shit. Yes, exactly. That's the deliberate strategy of Steve Bannon. Americans didn't forget about Bill Clinton when that happened. The Monica Lewinsky? But then before Trump. Americans didn't forget, Mehdi. No, Mehdi. We did, we did. No, Mehdi, no, Mehdi. That's why these people, that's why George, look at George Bush's approval ratings.

52:08They're really good right now. You know that? George Bush's approval ratings are good right now. Yes, but it's not. He left office as the most unpopular president. He should be sitting in The Hague facing war crimes charges. he was until trump came along he was the worst president of our lifetimes but over time americans forgive and forget they forgive and then they forget like you want them to no look at right now with iran why do they hate us why do they hate us because we remember shit we don't remember we shut down their plane we deposed their government we supported saddam hussein's invasion we don't have any memories of anything we did we're bad at history we're bad at remembering so i'm gonna respond to you but then i also have a question for you um so the first thing i will say is that, again, is not people forgetting, in my opinion.

52:47I don't think anyone forgot what George Bush did. I think because of recency bias and because of the way people perceive things that happen in time, George Bush now, for the average American, seems like a much better option than what they're experiencing at this moment in time. A, because they're not experiencing it right now. And B, because George Bush, I would argue, was doing worse things to the world than he was doing to Americans. So the average American, for the most part, was experiencing less of Bush's badness than the world was, right? So that's what I think was happening. The question though that I have for you for this is, when did you start saying we for what America was doing?

53:28That's a great question. That's a really good question. Because I noticed you said we invaded them, we bombed them. I don't know the answer to that question. Sometimes, and you notice what I said before we, I said, Americans have bad memories. And then I immediately clopped myself and said, let me put my British hat on, take my American hat off. because I have multiple identities. So when I talk about bad American memories, I'm talking as an immigrant outsider, right? But then sometimes I'm an American insider. Now that bothers Republicans. You know, the new phrase du jour is deport and denaturalize.

53:54They say it about the mayor of New York. They say it about Ilhan Omar. They say it about me. Multiple Republican members of Congress have called for me to be deported. They say, we're going to send you back to the UK, which makes me laugh, because growing up, I was told to go back to India. People were sending you back to India. Now it's like, I'm going to send you back to the UK. Ooh, that's a real scary insult. You're going to send me back to London, are you? Oh, not to London. Not there. So, I mean, you've got to hand it to the racists. They've gone up in the world. But that is the crap I get now because they don't accept me as a real American.

54:20Naturalized Americans are not real Americans, apparently, unless you're Melania Trump. So that is a good question. I don't know when I started saying we. I wonder if my MSNBC team know because I became a citizen in October 2020, a month before the 2020 election, just in time to vote against Trump. And I don't know. It's a good question. I was very happy to be a citizen because I want to have skin in the game. I don't want to be just an outsider, just pundit running my mouth like a Piers Morgan when he was here. Shots fired. Obviously, I have American kids and I have dual national kids. I have an American wife.

54:51I live here. My future is here. No, no, no. I'm not saying to you, but just to people who wonder, like, why does he live here if he doesn't like it so much? No, I love it. I love it here. I don't like American foreign policy. I don't like Donald Trump. But I love the United States of America. So that clearly I spoke at a No King. I spoke at a No King's rally. Right? Two interesting things about that. I spoke at a No King's protest. number one I spoke behind bulletproof glass first time in my life that's the world we live in now after Charlie Coe it's really strange by the way I love the organizers spent a lot of money on the bulletproof glass but it was only at the front there was nothing on the sides which I felt was a little bit of an inadequacy when there were people all around the stage anyways that was weird being behind bulletproof glass for the first time spoken hundreds of speeches in my life first time behind bulletproof did it make you give your speech differently like did you move a little bit more were you yeah I didn't have the same rapport the audience felt distant yeah the people on the sides who could shoot me at any time and then number two my mother watched it because it went viral and someone sent it to her from the side she watched it from england and she called me and she goes okay i noticed you said i love america i want to save my country she's when did you start talking like that before you try that i was like ah shit because my mom's not a fan of the fact that i became an american she wanted me to stay british oh she wanted you to stay yeah yeah she's but where was your mom born i was born in india huh what a beautiful irony yeah which is exactly the point I made to her I said you became an immigrant moved to another country why can't I nah I think she's just anti-America but what do you love so much about America though many things tell me I'm here for it alright I love America Eugene loves America so he's just asking you to validate him you've only been here two days as well this guy that's two days of my life what do I love about America I love the I love the sheer space yeah I love the fact that it's a big country I love that flying to California is like flying to London I love that I love that this is a country continent um i love the fact you go to different states i travel a lot for work and every state you go to is like a little mini country with its own kind of people problems issues i love that i'm all about diversity i'm sorry sorry right wingers i love my diversity my dei um so i love the fact that people are different wherever you go in this country that's a that's a good thing not a bad thing i love the food i'm a foodie i love junk food i love american junk food and fast food i'm not a snob.

57:01I love the shit stuff. I was born from, I was at movie cinema last night and I ordered a milkshake. What did you watch? I watched Mandalorian and Grogu. Is it good? Are you a Star Wars fan? Yeah, I love Mandalorian. Lots of people aren't Star Wars fans. No, okay, no, then I would be careful then. I would say that I... If you're not a Star Wars fan, you probably might love it. No, no, no. No, this is why I'm careful. So sometimes when people say, are you a fan of something? They just mean, do you like it? In fact, in general, I... Are you into it? Do you think about it? No, no, no. He means on May the 4th.

57:33Do I say may the 4th be with you? Yes. Yes, but not as like I have to. I just like that people have said that. No, no, no, no, no. To answer your question, I love the TV show. It's hard to convert TV shows into movies. So for me it didn't work as a movie. It's a movie. Yeah, they made it a... But it was doing well at the box office. It doesn't suck. It's good, but it's not great. And it could have been better. But I love the show and I love Pedro Pascal. So I went to watch it. But I ordered a milkshake. Yeah. And it came. I love it. moments I was like I love America did it come in the Grogu cup no it didn't but it came in a fucking huge cup and I was like this is what I love first time I went back to England when I realised I'm an American I went back to England I was doing my show for Al Jazeera went to a cafe across from the filming I ordered a brownie and this tiny little piece of shit came on the plate and I was like what is this I was like oh I'm in England that's when I was like I'm American what about the generally sunny disposition do you find no that I don't like you don't like that no that I'm very British American hat off British hat on I don't want to talk to you unnecessarily.

58:31I want to keep my head down. I'm the guy on the tube in the UK. You mind your business. You keep your head down. You don't engage. New York is a little bit like that as well. Not giving people directions. No. New York is - No unnecessary chit chat. No, have a nice day. Here's the thing. People get wrong about New Yorkers though. New Yorkers mind their own business, right? And because it's a fast pay, people be like, New Yorkers are not friendly. I don't agree with that. I just think New Yorkers understand that everyone's trying to get somewhere and go somewhere. So you can't be just stopping everyone.

58:56Hey, how you doing? how's your life you're interrupting people's lives but if you want to see how good New Yorkers are do something wrong and they will very quickly correct you and help you like say out loud ah I'm going you know to Queens and I'm going to take the whatever the F train someone will be like no no hey hey hey hey wrong train they'll be like no don't to go back to your point about sunny disposition if you mean like kind of department store have a nice day that annoys me I love that but if you love it okay I'm not a fan but if you mean kind of sunny disposition as in what's my world?

59:27My world is politics. If you mean kind of Barack Obama, Zoran Mamdani, inspiring speech, tear jerking, I love that. Okay, so you like that part? Yeah, like I'm the guy who watched West Wing and I'm corny West Wing. Like people make fun of people like me. I love the West Wing. I'm that guy. I apologize. I know people hate the West Wing. No, what do you mean? You don't have to apologize. Yeah, but I mean, we don't... Why do we have to apologize for that? That British political cynicism, no, I'm not a fan of. I prefer the American... Okay, so you've taken on the general optimism. Yes. That's the thing you love about America?

59:55And a democratic optimism. I'm with you. I'm with you. But then when it comes to like the niceties, you don't care for that at all. I'm still a Brit. I'm still a Brit there. I can't be fake. Do you have the fake apologetic thing that British people have? I'm not sure. That's a good question. Do you have to ask someone else? Do I? Yes, I do. I apologize all the time. No, I'm asking. I'm asking if he has it still. That's all. I'm not sure. I don't know the answer question. You'd have to ask people around me. So you're fully in then? This is like, I'm fully in until I get deported. I'm fully in. Are you worried about being deported?

1:00:28Yes. Genuinely. Are you not? No. Then you're stupid. Well, we're gonna clip that. We're gonna clip that for sure. I don't know what to say to a fellow non-white immigrant. If we don't clip this thing and put in like, just the back and forths here with... Jess, make sure we're clipping all of these moments, Jess. You're stupid. No, no. Well, then you're stupid. I apologize. And we must just like, gang, gang, gang. I apologize. It was a sore spot for me. No, no, no. Medhi. Non-white people who do not take the threat of Trump seriously, I think, have issues. Medhi. Do not apologize. You're making my day.

1:01:00I just proved my point. I just did a British apology. Yeah. Okay. So you do have that thing. I'm very sorry for... Do not apologize. You made my day. Because what I love is, I love the idea of us creating like a fake trailer for this interview. Just hostile. And it's just going to be hostilities back and forth. well you're stupid what are you talking about what do you know about you're wrong about and it's just and we're just gonna put the craziest title on the thumbnail and I wanna see how many people are gonna click on it and then just go from there five minutes into the video and then I ordered a giant milkshake

1:01:33geopolitics at its best do you think yes I am worried about being deported yes it would be insane not to be I take this person seriously remember I'm the guy in 2019 who said take it seriously Trump will stay on because WC just says this shit Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So maybe this is a semantic misunderstanding that we're having. You asked me if I'm worried. You're not saying if I took it seriously or not. I think there's a difference for me. Okay, explain. So there are things that I do not care to worry about as a person for myself. But you take seriously. But I take it seriously.

1:02:01Got it, got it, okay. So do I think there's a chance that they'll take away my ability to live in the US and kick me out? I'm like, yeah, this is very possible. Okay, then you're not stupid. Yeah, but I go, do I worry about it? I can't worry about it. For me as Trevor. Oh, then in that sense, I don't worry about it. Yeah, because I'm like, ah, guys. If I worried about it, I wouldn't be doing what I do. I wouldn't be here in New York talking to you. Okay, then we're saying the same thing. I would have gone and become a lawyer like my mother asked me to. My mother says, stop talking about Trump.

1:02:22Keep your head down. And I'm like, okay. And then I go do Jubilee. And then I'm like, oh, I didn't keep my head down. Yeah, I actually care. And I don't say this like just to say it. I actually care more about the people who have to worry about it. That's what I care more about. So like families being broken up. People who've built their lives here. You've got multi-generations. 100 % this is their only chance 100 % that's more the thing that I go and and maybe a not so popular opinion I worry for the United States I agree because I think I think any like if you you know we've had this conversation we talk about the replacement population or rate of replacement in China or in Germany or in Japan places where they're seeing what happens when you're not having enough children being born or enough immigration when it's just you your country cannot replace the population at a high enough rate to sustain your economy's growth.

1:03:11And there's almost no country that has done that without immigration. It's very difficult to do without immigration because this is a weird thing that happens. Elon Musk says you can do about having lots of kids and he's trying to show us the way. By the way, what was it like talking to his... Ashley. Didn't you interview... Ashley Sinclair, baby mama. Eddie, you really don't have a boss anymore. I don't think I've ever heard a journalist say baby mama in my life, bro. With that exit. No, no, no. But the way he said it, baby mama. what did you make of that? As a Brit, I'll say I apologize to Ashley St.

1:03:40Clair if she took any offense from her. No, no, no. She seems cool now. I mean, look, people ask me Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. That's what I mean. That's what I mean. You said she seems cool now. But I'm a cynic. Yes, you are. I said this to Ashley when she was on the show with the greatest respect. I've dealt with too many people who kind of, I've left Trump world and I've converted and then they haven't really converted or they're just out there for the grift or, you know, you look at Michael Cohen conned a lot of people. People at MSNBC, when I was there, loved Michael Cohen. He'd be on the show every day, and then suddenly he's back in the Trump fold or whatever.

1:04:05So I think a lot of these people I'm very skeptical of, like, who come very late to the party. Although, to be fair, she said she had no regrets. I mean, I asked her straight up, you know, do you regret being fooled by Elon Musk? She goes, no, I got a kid out of it. She goes, I have my child, thankfully, so I would never do anything differently. But, you know, she talked about how he impressed her. I don't understand how anyone, I find him to be one of the most repulsive, loathsome, charisma-free, humor-free people on the planet. I get it, he's the richest man in the world, so that has a certain appeal.

1:04:31But yeah, I confused when I talked to her about why she ended up with him. What were you hoping to get out of that interview? I wanted to know how much they paid her. They offered to pay her. She talked about... Really? She said on the show, she said they offered me an amount the size of a GDP of a small country to not speak and she didn't sign it to keep her freedom to speak out. And she's been speaking out a lot. She's been in a lot of places. She was on Jennifer Watch's podcast. She was with Hassan Becker. She was on my show. Now, this is what's interesting to me. What does she say is the reason that she flipped her views on the world?

1:05:05I asked her that question. I think she said it was being exposed to people she had not been exposed to, being waking up to the grift on her side. She told some great stories about being in WhatsApp and text groups with Trump kids and MAGA influencers are all just getting the marching orders. Some of them are just getting money for what they're doing. You can cameo these guys, like the equivalent of a few hundred bucks. You can get a MAGA influencer, say whatever you want them to say. We live in a world where you click online. you do not know if the person posting on Twitter, Instagram threads is posting because they believe that or someone's paid them.

1:05:33And that applies on both sides as a divide, by the way. You saw recently Tom Steyer, the guy running for governor in California, billionaire, was paying liberal influencers to say nice things about him. I didn't see that actually. So it's the world we live in now. It's just me, you, Trevor, who are actually speaking from the high. Everyone else. Ah, me, my man. I get paid to hang out with this guy called Eugene. South Africa pays me. It's this weird deal that I have. They're like, you have to roll with one. You have to roll with one. And I'm like, ah, okay, Eugene, let's roll. To keep the side out.

1:05:57Let's roll, my friend. The payout is a to the fee of a small apartment vlog. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

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1:06:52Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing. feeling short on smiles does your frown need to be turned upside down we got the perfect dose of comedy 30 minutes of scrubs zach braff donald face on sarah chalk and the rest of the gang at sacred heart are back for a brand new season we play medical doctors who are besties just like in real life and we'll definitely be up in each other's cases scrubs premieres wednesday on abc and stream the next day on hulu side effects may include laughing cheering and lots of high fives

1:07:30I worry because there's a gift and curse when it comes to everything, right? I say that all the time, but I do believe it. One of the curses of having a media that is controlled by a few people is that it is controlled by a few people and we don't realize that our news is being filtered through the lens of a few. One of the gifts is that there's accountability because you know where to find these people. So even Fox News could be sued by Dominion voting systems, and they could lose and they could pay the money, even Fox News in that way. But now with the internet, the way it is, you can run an entire campaign that lies to people.

1:08:09And the thing that I don't mean - And you never find the source of it. Yeah. I don't mean this like in a political way, like, oh, disinformation. No, no, no. What I just mean is it can make human beings feel like their world is worse or better or different than it actually is and it can make them create or vote for a world that is worse for themselves without realizing it that's that's like the most pernicious side of it is you remember the johnny depp amber heard issue yeah a lot of that was kind of online artificially boosted yeah um the recent um why am i forgetting the names uh the recent big hollywood row i'm having a mind block see i'm old i can remember recent hollywood row blake lively oh damn look at that blake lively and justin boldoni a lot of that.

1:08:49There was a New York Times piece about what people were doing behind the scenes to gen up opposition to her. So you don't know what you can believe anymore. A lot of people out there are just innocently living their lives, walking down the streets of Manhattan on their phones, not knowing that they're being manipulated and gaslit. Yeah, they're seeing a lot of people saying something, but they don't know that those aren't a lot of people. Those are basically paid actors. You know how they put it in the bottom of an ad, even on TV, if you still watch TV, it'll say, not a real person, paid actor.

1:09:16Even in that world, they have to tell you, I know that I'm telling you to take this medication, Skyrizi, but I'm not a real person. I love, by the way, that, you asked me what I love about America. I love pharmacy ads. They're hilarious. They're amazing. The drug ads are amazing. We don't have them in the UK. They're phenomenal. It's when they read out the side effects. Yeah. It causes diarrhea. There's memory loss. There's a hair in your eyeballs. There's smiling on screen, as I say. My favorite is the fact that they say, ask your doctor about it. I'm like, if my doctor cannot tell me about the medication, I don't trust them.

1:09:43It's just weird that you're going to be like, ask your doctor about. now I'm just walking and being like so doctor tell me about I wonder how many doctors hate that actually I know you're doing your job you're doing your job okay no that one doesn't get me you know what the worst one is for me I understand that all medication can have a side effect and I understand that they have to list this what gets me is when the side effect is the thing that you were being treated for in the first place that's the one that gets me that is not a side effect you understand what I'm saying so if they say do you suffer from constipation take this medication it may cause drowsiness it may cause suicidal thoughts It may cause death It may cause skin rashes That's side effects I understand this I'm not even judging you But when you go Side effects may include constipation That's not a side effect That's the thing not working You can't You must say Sometimes it doesn't work You can't say The side effect of the thing Is the thing that I already have That's not how it works bro That's when I have an issue With those ads Otherwise I think it's great I think it's a fun time I sit there and I enjoy it What do you watch When you're watching stuff By the way Oh I've said this before Because I don't really watch Much other than action films Well yeah what's your go-to Jason Statham ah I like that because he's English no I knew you were going to say that no no I don't know I'm wondering I mean I do love I do love that I do love that he has the kind of they have to always give him some random English backstory because he can't do an American accent very well so in the majority of movies like me I guess in the majority of movies you can't do an English accent so far we've seen poor John Oliver the because they can't because he can't do a very good American accent I take offense to that I take offense I'll get it I'll get it if he comes back if he comes back I'll get it if he comes back It's because I watched Jeremy Clarkson yesterday.

1:11:15That's why. That grand tour is like a lot of my head. But that's not like Clarkson either. Because he can't do an American accent. In most of the movies, they give him some random backs. He left the Royal Marines and then moved to become a better. They always do. They slide it in. This guy was there. He left the special boat service and moved to this island. And now he has a normal job. And now he has a normal job. Now he's just a fucking, you know, even the other day, what was the one I watched the other day? I can't remember the name. The Beekeeper. The Beekeeper is a great film. Yeah, The Beekeeper was a good one.

1:11:40But there was a really bad one recently where he was on an island. I didn't rate that one he was still a worker though he's always a worker he's always like a he's always like a foreman a driver my favourite one of course Transporter movies I mean but that's one of the greatest movies of all time Transporter 1, 2, 3 they get better that made me want to buy the car one of the few super franchises oh the Audi that's when you know the movie's dope it started with the BMW then they switched to Audi they switched to the Audi the Audi was like oof you're like I want an Audi you gotta buy this Audi you know when they can make like a family saloon look like no this is the car you need to be driving it wasn't quite a family so it was like an A8 but okay Yeah, but I mean, it's like a big Goomba Goomba car.

1:12:10I had an Audi for a while after that. Not an AA. It was an SUV. And I remember when I moved to the DC, I had one. And it's a real American experience. I was sitting in a parking lot at like a Walmart or somewhere. And my wife or kids or whatever was inside. This guy just walks up to me. Big white guy walks up to the screen, looks and he goes, Audi. I said, yes. He goes, Hitler used that car with slave labor. Damn, bro. And I was like, I was this close to saying. And the White House was built with slave labor down the street. But I just moved. It was like a month in. So I was like, let's let it go.

1:12:39let it go do you think beef just finds you it does it does no and I say this I genuinely say so I I was on the train today coming up yeah and he might watch this sweet kid was next to me on the train turned out to be a fan but he said to me and if you're watching no you know respect I'm saying this very respectfully but beef we're in the middle of a train journey and he turned to me and he's like oh yeah I'm a big fan I've seen your videos and then he goes but you know but I don't agree with you on genocide. Tell me why you think it's not a genocide. I said, I can't do this here. We're on an Amtrak train.

1:13:15I'm going to do Trevor Noah. I can't read my emails. I said, I've done many videos you can watch them. But it's like, it's hilarious to me that even the person who reckoned on a train wants to have a debate about the Middle East right then and there. I guess, yeah, you've got, maybe you have like debatable vibes. Maybe you give it off. To be fair, I then go and look for debates too, which is what friends and family tell me. It's my fault. Like I went and did Jubilee, which was probably a dumb thing to do if you don't want to have a debate vibe. Because now... You must have been in heaven, though.

1:13:37People under the age of 25, they don't know my name. They've never seen Jateo. They've never seen Al Jazeera. They're like, you're that dude from the circle debate. You're that dude from Jubilee. Mehdi, let's be honest. You were in heaven. I was not in heaven. You were in heaven. It was two and a half hours of my life I will never get back. Mehdi Hassan, you were... Let me tell you something. Have you seen it? I was not. I was not. So you know that series on YouTube where they'll put one person against a group of people in a circle and they have to run to the middle and argue with you about something.

1:14:00I thought it would be heaven. It was not. It was hell. Really? I went thinking, this is going to be fun. Okay. Trump, 20 to one. I like those odds. Let's do it. Someone like me, I'm like, yeah, let's do it. I go there and you asked earlier about memory and date. Yeah. I fucking prepared for this. I spent days preparing. My argument, you have four claims. Yes, yes. High five. I had my notes. I had memorized constitutional amendment. My first argument was Trump is anti the Constitution. Trump is pro-crime. I can't remember my claims. Trump is whatever it was, immigration. Oh, immigration is good for America.

1:14:35I had all these provocative claims for this Margaret. And I had data, statistics, official reports, quotes, all up here. I was ready. This is me. I went in. First guy sits down. I'm like, oh, yeah, the Constitution. He's like, I don't care about the Constitution. Yeah. I'm like, oh, what do I do now? It's like none of my facts or figures are relevant here because I'm surrounded by a bunch of white supremacists, fascists, and crazies. And that was a very strange experience for me because I went in thinking stupidly, not good faith debate, but some kind of debate. And what's interesting is, to be fair to Jubilee, and I've criticized Jubilee since doing it, to be fair to them, in other shows, Glenn Greenwald just did one recently with 20 MAGA people.

1:15:11I've watched other shows. And I watched them and I go, how come I didn't get those 20? Like every other show has some semi-normal people. For some reason, what do you say? Beef finds me. Beef finds you. I get the 20 craziest people in the history of Jubilee. like I thought there'd be like two or three crazies and like 16, 17 normal but the whole squad was it was like 19 crazy and there was like one normal guy I genuinely thought you were loving it no no just because of just because of like how you roll in the debate so basically you run in you would love it actually you would no we're gonna I'll show you I'll show you no I think Eugene would just love watching it because it's just chaos two and a half hours in a warehouse in LA with a bunch of white supremacists and look I want to make a serious point here I do love debating but this is gonna sound very strange and cliched I'm also a human being and you sit there for two and a half hours with person after person telling you you're not a real American, you're not a white person, get out of my country.

1:16:01I didn't see that coming. I'll be honest. Maybe I was naive because I've watched other Jubilees and other guests have not got that. Maybe those were white guys on the left who went on. Maybe because I'm a brown Muslim, it was worse for them. But it was a very strange experience to be told by one person after another, you're not a real American. You don't belong here. Get out. You're going to be the first to go. Then discover after the show that some of these people are linked to the Proud Boys and are Nazis online. and it's like, oh, I was sitting with some, and I took like one security guard with me afterwards.

1:16:27I was like, maybe I should do like 20 because afterwards you're feeling like that's a very strange situation to be in. That is not a debate. Like, and a lot of people attacked me. A lot of people on the left said, why did you do that? Because you gave the wrong message out. You're saying that people of color should have to sit there and listen to white supremacists say this shit to their faces. And I understood that and I respect that. I got criticized from both sides. And to this day, people say, well, would you do it again? Do you regret doing it? I don't know, I'm torn. That's why when you said I enjoyed it, like I thought I would enjoy it, but I didn't.

1:16:56That makes a lot of sense. Do you think it changed how seriously you took the situation in the country? No, I already took its situation. No, no, but I'm saying, do you think it changed that? No, but I hope others took it seriously. That's the only redeeming feature. I hope the stupid people that we talked about earlier who think this is all just a bunch of old white men in Mississippi who are going to die out, oh, the Republican body. They saw 20 young people in LA saying crazy anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, anti-black, great replacement shit. And I think people don't realize this is not just some generational thing.

1:17:29Oh, the race is just going to die out and then we have a liberal, multiracial America. No, no, no. This is a serious problem. There's a huge movement on the right that is young and vicious. The Nick Fuentes, the Groypers, some of these guys were linked to Nick Fuentes, I discovered later. And I think that is what was scary. And I think that was one of the redeeming features. When I look back and say, would I do it again? Do I regret doing it? I certainly don't regret exposing. I hope I exposed it to whatever the 15 million people, whatever it is, who watched on YouTube to say, you know, these people live amongst us.

1:17:55They are your neighbors. One of the guys, Connor, claims to have been fired after the show from his employer. And I remember being on there thinking, as he said to me, yeah, I'm a fascist. As he played down the Holocaust, I'm like, you're saying this? I'm not naive enough to think that these views don't exist in American society. But the fact that you now live in a country where you think you can go on YouTube proudly and say it to cameras are filming you. Your colleagues, your co-workers are going to see this and it doesn't bother you. That, for me, was very stark. And actually for the vast majority of them, there was no consequences for airing those views on YouTube to millions.

1:18:25That should tell us something about where we are as a country and what's acceptable now in discourse. How afraid are you on a day-to-day basis? Like just when you're like rolling in the streets, living your life? I'm okay. Yeah. I get a lot of love. The haters stay away. The haters stay away. Or they're digital. Or they're digital or they watch from afar. I got one guy recently shout at me in airport, say, you should be deported, get out of my country. like scream at you or just say no just he said it under his breath and I said that's even scarier in a weird way when he breathed he said it he was like a middle age middle class guy didn't look like a you know normal guy yeah so what passed me under his breath saying get out he said something about getting out of the country yeah and I said what do you say say it to my face maybe he worked for the airport and he thought you were at the gates well maybe maybe he was just telling you so I did no you know because sometimes in life you know they say like your perspective can shape how you see an experience so you don't know maybe this person is like a greeter or somebody who works at an airport.

1:19:18And then maybe they were saying it in a good way. They were like, oh my God, there's Mehdi Hassan. I love him. And they were worried for you. And they walk past and they're like, you should get out of the country, man. No, you don't know. Unfortunately, I do know. Because when I said, say it to my face, he said, you hate this country. You're a threat to our country. You should get the fuck out. Fuck you. I like that you verified it. I verified it. Okay, this is good. No, because people don't do this sometimes in life. You know, you have a negative experience. No, because I was surprised because I get a lot of hate online and in the mail, but not to my face.

1:19:40actually touch wood i probably jinxed it now but you know obviously now events especially post charlie kirk yeah i have to have a lot of security it looks really bad i don't like feeling actually diva but you do unfortunately given the level of hate and the number of guns in this country but no on a day-to-day basis i live my life i watch my jason stay the movies i drink my milkshakes i don't worry about freaks here's something i've always wondered because we live in a society where people are constantly being fed one idea of of other people politics etc etc um i often wonder if there's something you would say to people who have a singular idea of you that might surprise them?

1:20:15Like, what would you say to people? Because I don't think there's any world where it's just a plurality, right? There's no world where it's just like them and us. Everyone has a shade of something. It's this gradient that goes from one color to another, et cetera, et cetera. There's somebody out there who is only being fed clips of yours that pissed them off. They know nothing about you as human being. A lot of clips like bullshit, lies. Yeah, yeah, but I'm saying, there might even be stuff that you've said yes that people have clipped yes in a way you know you know when i experienced this for the first time like in the in the in the starkest manner was when i did the white house correspondence dinner i did the white house correspondence dinner is joe biden at like any white house correspondence dinner i roasted joe biden i roasted democrats i roasted liberal media i was there in the crowd i roasted um conservative media i wrote you i was like this is what the event is about right what shocked me was the next day the clips where I spoke about anyone on the right went to the left and the clips where I spoke about anyone on the left went to the right and I was shocked to see how even when we try and create a reality that is gray the algorithm splits the black and white and goes we'll send this to you we'll send that to you but but I'm saying what would you like if you met somebody who let's say somebody walked up to you and they didn't say get out of my country they said um Mehdi Hassan I've seen some of the things you say about this country.

1:21:38And I just want you to know that I think you're really divisive and you're not part of making this country a better place. I think you hate America. What would you say to them? And if you saw they were trying to be sincere. Yeah, I would say there's many things I would say to them. Aside from saying, well, I love the country too. Look, I would say, and I say this because this is my politics, is that I'm the last person to be divisive. I think AOC has a very good line, which I will steal from out, which is, I want everyone to have healthcare. I want MAGA to have healthcare. I don't want to deprive my political opponents of everything.

1:22:09I'm a universalist, right? So I'm the last person you could actually call divisive because I want what I have for everyone else. I've been very blessed. I've been very privileged. I'm part of the 1%, whatever you want to call it. I want everyone to have access to healthcare. I want everyone to have a roof over their heads. I want everyone to have a job that pays well. You know, I started a business. I'm as American, you know, American dream, immigrant came. I'm a fucking socialist running a business, right? I'm an entrepreneur now. I do stuff like, make sure you subscribe to Zetero. I feel dirty afters, but you've got to do it.

1:22:35Small businessmen. So like, I'm a proud American, right? I'm a proud American dreamer. And my position, my politics, in fact, the opposite of divisive. They are universalist. They are, I want a higher minimum wage for everyone. I want healthcare for everyone. I want college to be accessible to everyone. I know it sounds cliched, but that's literally what... It's always makes me fun when we go, oh, the far left and the far right are the two divisive forces. The far right are Nazis who want to get rid of black people from America. The far left want universal healthcare. That is not the same thing, right?

1:23:07Bernie Sanders is not the same thing as Nick Fuentes. And if you think that, your brain is broken by the algorithm. Huh. I like that. I would also say I enjoy a good Jason Statham movie and I hope the MAGA voter does too. I feel like MAGA likes Jason Statham. That actually is where you... I'd say let's go watch Beekeeper 2 together. You know? To be or not to be. Is that what he says? He says it in the first movie. Oh man, that's amazing. Of course he says it. You think he went through it and he goes, to be or not to be? That is amazing. To be. And then he kills the guy. And then he kills the guy.

1:23:42Eugene, how are you going to act like you don't love... Have you not watched Beekeeper? Fire, my man. I've never watched anything by Jason Statham. What? Marathon, my brother, me and you. Why? I was going to get into it and then one day I saw... So I watched Expendables too. I saw a video of him that he was almost an Olympic diver. Yes! Then I was like... That's so random. You've never watched Jason Statham. You know that bit of trivia that only hardcore fans know. He was almost a British Olympic diver, yeah. Yeah. For me, people who pivot too much. What? People who over-pivot. You know if he became a swimming instructor?

1:24:17Well, his next movie, he's on a boat. I just watched the trailer last night. If he became a swimming instructor, I would have been like, yeah, that's within the realms. He went from diving to becoming a Hollywood actor. But he doesn't claim to be an actor, I don't think. Yeah, of course he doesn't. I think he accepts he's not an actor. He also didn't claim to be a diver. Didn't Jean-Claude Van Damme also go from, wasn't he like a dancer? And then he went into... Yeah, he worked at his dad's gym. Jean-Claude Van Damme, I mean, come on. He's no Jason Statham. Whoa. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you kidding me?

1:24:46Yo, what? JCVD versus Jason Statham. First of all. Statham would kick his ass. My friend, okay. Let me stop by saying this. Go on. You're stupid. Okay. Secondly, secondly, Jean-Claude Van Damme, my friend, you... I grew up watching Jean-Claude Van Damme. You have the memory of a goldfish. No, I didn't. I can tell you every film that. Bloodsport. My friend. I can watch Bloodsport again every day. There is no world. Double impact. There is no world where you can make a statement as, will it be a close fight? Yes. Will it be a tough fight? Time cop. My friend. Let's go. There is no world. There's no scenario you watch more JCVD films than I have.

1:25:18I watch him now. The B shit that goes straight to streaming, where he's like an old assassin retired. I watch that shit too. I watch all of this stuff. In what world? You did the hand. In what world are you going to bring? What was going on with him there? Like, I don't know. Oh, he's doing a gun. He has a gun now because he can't do splits and kick anymore. Because you said he's old and you did this with your hands. I don't know. But Jason Statham would kick his arm. No way. Are you serious? You think this Belgian dancer is going to take out the beat? You think this British diver? You think this British diver is going to beat kickboxer?

1:25:58with cheesy lines. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? This guy's not serious, bro. You're insane. Do you know Tong Po? My man, you're playing games, you. Have you seen Universal Soldier? My man, I've watched all of them. These are the only movies we had in South Africa. I think Dolph Lundgren would have kicked John Claude Van Damme's movie. Yeah, but that's a tough one. But that's a tough one. I'll give you Lundgren. Yeah, but I'm saying that. But I won't give you Van Damme. My man. Statham. You've seen when you put your foot like this? Yeah. Over your head. Over your head.

1:26:24Yeah. Relax. But he doesn't hit people with it. Statham actually just breaks some bones. This guy, you know what, Mehdi? Over pivoters. No, you are. I think you're crazy. I hope you get deported. This guy just said the craziest thing of all time. I'm just going to say this because one day I dreamed to meet Jason Statham. You're going to clip all the other clips. Me, I'm clipping this and I'm tagging Jason on Instagram. This guy. I'm going to say I defend him. Yeah. The muscles from Brussels. He's from Brussels for God's sake. You're bringing in real things, which is not fair. Because I'm not bringing in a single real thing about Jason Statham.

1:26:58I am. Not a single thing. Okay, on camera. I'm not bringing in a single... Fine, on character. You're hitting below the belt. No, no, I'm saying let's take their characters. Yes. You're going to take this like wussy time cop, double impact Hong Kong dude. And you're going to put him up against XSAS. Jason Statham, who doesn't take shit from anyone. Transporter 2. Blowing up things, shooting people. I'm talking straight hand to hand. Hand to hand. I'm talking hand to hand too have you seen have you seen Jean-Claude Van Damme John-Claude Van Damme John-Claude Van Damme you'll be here you'll be here you'll be here Jean-Claude Van Damme you'll be here while you're here you'll feel something here what are you talking about you think Statham doesn't kick you'll kick you like have you never seen that so you lied earlier when you said you was the beekeeper show me Jason Statham's highest kick and show me Jean-Claude Van Damme's highest kick but Jean-Claude Van Damme's short so you don't need to do a high kick he's a short guy yo okay you know what I just defeated your argument then If there's a world where we could make this happen.

1:27:55I feel like there's a jubilee here. 20 people. I'm going to try. I'm going to try and we're going to raise funds and make this movie. Why I told you to bring that to the approved class. Let's just clip this, tag Statham and see what he thinks. I want to see you both with Statham in the chair. Say what? I didn't say. You're the one who brought this thing up. You're the one who made it antagonistic. I was happy with both of these heroes. I love the transporter. And I said Statham would kick JCV. You see, you see. You made it into. Obviously, if you just met me, I make everything for debate or argument even real fights somebody has to win and lose in everything that I've heard what do you think you loved about action movies what got you like why action movies is what I'm saying because you could have yeah but you could have loved romantic comedies you could have loved I do love romantic comedies too I just don't I just don't watch them now oh okay oh so you went through a period yeah but the action has stayed with you your whole life clearly since I was a kid who did you want to be when you were a kid He-Man's out I grew up watching He-Man He-Man do you think it's going to be good or not no I'm worried about too many sequels.

1:28:52I think at some point toy films. No, no, but actually it's what I grew up watching and I don't know why I like it so much. Maybe because I was the kid in the playground who got bullied and I'm not good at fighting. Maybe I saw that as a kind of escape and I saw myself in JCVD. Did you, when you were getting bullied? The JCVD wasn't my guy growing up. Yeah, but what? Bruce Willis. Bruce Willis was your guy. Die Hard. Die Hard. Die Hard was the fun thing. Wow, that's an interesting one. For a kid, I don't know why I think How old was I, Die Hard? I was quite old, 13, 12. What was Die Hard? 89? 90?

1:29:19I want to say 88? When we got them was different to when they came out. That's so true. That's so true. I remember the first time I talked to an American about something that was current in my world in South Africa and they were like, that was from 10 years ago. And we were like, that just came out for us, bro. It just came out for us. That literally just came out for us. So I... No, but I loved Arnie, obviously. I loved all those guys. They all turned out to be Republicans. Now I see everything politically. So I'm like, fuck. No, man, don't do that to yourself. I'm a slice alone Republican. Arnie a Republican.

1:29:45Let me tell you something. Mehdi, Mehdi, let me tell you something. If there's one thing I can hope to leave you with when you leave this podcast is, do not do that to yourself. Because here's the thing we take for granted. Because we live in a world where people have now been forced to live their politics first and their humanity second. We have now created a world where we no longer see humans anymore. We see the politics and then we forget that there's a human. But we don't understand that humanity is at the center of politics. If I cannot see you as a human, we'll never get to a place where we agree because we've already started with not agreeing.

1:30:22I agree with that. No, no. So what I'm saying is, and I mean this because I remind myself of this, is I go, I have to live in a world where I'm willing to accept certain people have done beautiful things for me in terms of their art, in terms of their music, in terms of their movies, whatever it might be. Then I find out that on a personal level, they have different political views to me. That will take nothing away from what you gave me for my whole life, my whole childhood, my whole everything. Because I'm like, yo, man, okay, fine. I agree with that. You identified them on the screen. Yeah, but I'm saying don't let that, don't rub yourself of, don't rub little media of that.

1:30:53I try not to find, especially now with the genocide, right? For me, the biggest moral issue of our time is the genocide. For me, I see celebrities, actors through that prism and that's a real problem for me. I recently discovered that Helen Mirren is like a hardcore supporter. I love Helen Mirren. And it's like, ah, it's painful to me. Does that mean I'm not going to watch the next season of Mobland? Yes, I'm going to watch the next season of Mobland. Okay, okay, okay. Fucking amazing, even though apparently Tom Hardy got kicked off. No, but they negotiated and they say, I think they saw the backlash and they've now said they're working on it.

1:31:17I love Tom Hardy as well. But the, so I agree with that. Yeah. But it's hard. I don't dispute that. And by the way, I would do the reverse too. So someone like Kiefer Sutherland, who's a super lefty in real life, his grandfather was the first socialist prime minister of some province in Canada. He was in a show, 24. Yes. Which I loved. Super Islamophobic show. There's no debate about that. Like it was a super Islamophobic show. That was like peak anti-Muslim propaganda. Yeah, war on terror. Yeah, Warn Terror. Every show was Warn Terror. And seasons two, three, four became all the Muslim terrorists.

1:31:48Even like Cal Penn turns out to be like a sleeper terrorist in that show. Loads of comedians in that show turn out to be, turns out, so many people I watch it now and I'm like, shit, Nick Offerman is like a far right white supremacist. Oh, I didn't know that. In like season two. He's like beating up an Arab guy. I'm like, that's Nick Offerman. I text Nick. I'm like, Nick, you're in 24. Yeah, it was early role. Are you ready? Like there's so many, Maz Jobrani is like a terrorist who doesn't go through. I didn't know that. recently with my daughter. So I was like, okay, Islamophobic. But like that show, I loved it, but I had to really torture it.

1:32:17Like a lot of Muslims are like, we should boycott this show. And I was like, I want to, but I love it so much. But it goes against everything I believe in. And I met Keefer Southern once and I got to ask him about it. And he kind of tried to put my mind at ease about like the onscreen Islamophobia, but that's the reverse. That's where onscreen, it's really bad, but you're still watching as like a guilty pleasure, even though you know, politically goes against everything you stand for. So, but going back to you as the kid, who do you think you were actually what what because like when i was getting bullied in school uh my two defenses were my speed i could outrun most kids yeah and then was my humor so i was like okay if the bullies do catch me and then i'm going humor what was your what was your mine was similar humor more mockery so as i was getting beaten up i would make fun of them more in front of the people for real for real yeah because my mouth never shuts i run my mouth so that was the main thing right they're gonna try they're gonna try and beat me up one thing they're not gonna to do is silence me and that's been how i've been all my life so you know whether it's republican members of congress saying deport me yes i'm back to the uk yeah or the kid in school bullying me calling me the p word that was the same that was the same so it was always a matter of that but you're not going to shut my mouth you can visit you know you know all sticks and stones will hurt you know the crap yeah sticks and stones will hurt your bones the words will affect you no bullshit i knew that from very old words will affect you i've made words in my career and that was the only defense I had.

1:33:34That explains a lot though. It's like you kept that thing of, you're not going to shut me up. You might scare me. You might beat me up. You might threaten me, whatever it is, but I'm still going to say, what do you think that gives you? And what I mean is like, what does it preserve? I mean, I would hope it preserves my integrity because ultimately, if you're in our business, at many points in your career, you're asked to sacrifice integrity, your principle, you're asked to shut up about an issue. You're asked not to say, you know, as Noam Chomsky has often said, the worst kind of censorship is censorship by omission, right?

1:34:08It's what you don't say, not what you do say is that's the worst kind of propaganda and brainwashing and gaslighting. And I think over the years, that's been the thing that I've tried to avoid in all my public life, my private life, as someone on the left, as someone who's a Muslim, et cetera, et cetera, is just saying, you know what, I'm just going to say what I have to say. And obviously, to go back to your earlier question, this is why I love doing Zetaya right now as much as i loved msnbc i had a great time at msnbc had a great time in all the other places i worked all my experiences have been great i don't regret any of my journalistic career but the moment i'm in now that freedom really to be able to really just go for it without having to worry about any consequences or obviously some consequences but in general yeah i think that is hugely liberating and i say liberating in a very literal sense well i'm i'm glad that you get to be this person thanks for joining us man this was thank you for having a true joy i'm glad we got to see and good luck for the train ride back if someone approaches you because you never know this guy starts he gets beef started you never know so on the way back on the way back I find myself sitting next to Jean-Claude Van Damme the muscles from Brussels the muscles from the fact that he's from Brussels Van Damme have you ever watched The Beekeeper let me tell you who would kick your ass hopefully you bump into Pedro Pascal oh that'd be good not wearing his mask he didn't reply I said this is the way yes Is it?

1:35:28Yeah of course it's the way That's good music They didn't have enough of that in the movie No They did but not enough of it I wanted more of it Yeah that is the best part of it That is the best part of it Does Boba Fett make an appearance? No Don't spoil anything We're gonna go watch it ourselves That's what we gotta do Mehdi man for real This was great Thanks guys I appreciate it What Now with Trevor Noah Is produced by DayZero Productions In partnership with SiriusXM The show is executive produced by

1:36:10Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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