Oobah Butler: The Digital Mirage

33:49And yeah, I kind of found a style luckily, which was this kind of like a gonzo style, Social experiment-y Style thing Did another thing Where I went door to door I pretended I was Joining the Jehovah's Witnesses Oh nice And I went door to door And learned How they sell Door to door How does that work Because I don't know Of anybody who's Opened the door Yeah Or like How does that work Well I like that The numbers Open the door No I don't I genuinely don't It's the right question Because I was thinking The same thing That's why I got interested in it because I'd been in a band and we'd failed and I was like it must it's so hard to sell a CD it's like 2015-16 this was and I was like you can't no one will buy a CD what do people want to buy less than a CD a Jehovah's Witness at the door and I was like if I could compete with them this is all over the place I'm sorry no this is great but basically what happened was I then started going around with them from door to door and building data and how many people out of 100 doors would let them in Where did you find Jehovah's Witnesses That were looking for No they found him Eugene Come on They found me That's how They saw They saw a lapsed Catholic And they thought Opportunity What's that medicine In his pocket It smells like But yeah It was just like this It was It was in It was in South London So there was loads of Like you know New churches And stuff like that Around there It was very active religiously in South London and yeah so it was like I started going from door to door I went to these seminars they had where they would go they would be like okay and they would do like a role play like you're in a oh so they teach you how to do that oh and then they'd be like they'd go like okay there it is role playing now pretend you're answering the door oh so I'm your it's your house yeah hello oh hello there wait you don't open your door are you talking through the door yes I just want to make sure Okay sorry go ahead Sorry go ahead This was before Ring Oh before Ring When your face was the camera Yeah he said the CDs He said the CDs Hello Hi there Would you like to learn about God?

36:02What about him? No listen You need to learn about God Stop What went wrong there? I'm still holding the door handle No I'm joking No you were aggressive Yes You were too aggressive No yes Yeah you were too aggressive Okay great So what could I have done differently? I think what you could have done differently there is You could have asked him Maybe if he has troubles in his life Or would he like to learn about the love of Jesus? Or would he like to learn about something good? You've got to offer him something, I think Fantastic Do you want to try the second attempt? Do you think you could do better?

36:37I was just watching No, I don't think I can do better I was just watching this interaction I can tell you now He thinks he can do better No, I don't If he doesn't do this now I'll be tortured with it the whole day Trevor You are Jehovah's Witness First, I want to see a better version because he just gave me the feedback. This is out when, but I got excited about the idea of you doing it.

36:56That's how it should be. This is out when. Okay, take two, take two. Okay. Knock.

37:03Hello. Hello there. What a lovely day. How are you? Would you like to hear about the love of Jesus Christ? How are you feeling today? Oof. Yeah. He loves me too. He definitely loves you. Although I'm not wearing pants right now as I opened it. He loves that. He's got a lot of space in his heart. Come in. Come in. All right. Stop. That's fantastic. So that's basically what it was like. The seminars are kind of like that. With more nudity. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now? after this. Picture this. You're about to take off for a long flight And suddenly you realize the Wi-Fi is out Ladies and gentlemen, the Wi-Fi is not working You've already seen most of the in-flight movies And the book you brought feels more like homework than pleasure This, my friends, is when you'll love having YouTube Premium Downloading videos before a flight is a must You can be sitting 30 ,000 feet in the air Halfway through a fascinating interview A travel documentary or a cooking series you've somehow become emotionally invested in.

38:17No Wi-Fi, no problem. You also get ad-free viewing and background play. So if you need to shut off your screen to rest your eyes or devote your attention to eating those little Biscoff cookies without getting crumbs everywhere, you can still keep listening to your content. And honestly, a long flight might be my favorite time to have YouTube Premium because suddenly you have something you almost never have on the ground. Hours to yourself. So before a flight, you can almost build your own entertainment system Maybe there's an interview you've been saving because it's two hours long A documentary somebody told you about A live performance you never got around to watching Something completely random you've always wanted to understand That's the fun of it You get on the plane with this little world you've chosen for yourself And for the next few hours, you can go wherever your curiosity takes you If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com slash premium Terms apply.

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40:27This is great because you're showing me how, you know, to pull off one of the greatest scams that's ever been pulled off, you needed to have all the tools. Yeah. like your origin story so you had it in your DNA right you've got the grandfather who's like literally the snake oil salesman yeah genuinely you've got like your dad who's a bullshitter but just like in life he's like because he's got it in him yeah you're the runt of the litter so you're like how do I get attention how do I make my way alright so you got this vibe then you go to Jehovah's Witness training the ultimate sales camp so now you're learning how to like how to sell people on a thing that they can't see and like you just have to get them Who believe in it And you know what I mean And notoriously are not liked And you meet the reviewers Who teach you about reviewing And what reviewing is So you've got all of these pieces And then you go Okay this is it Yeah I'm gonna launch my fake restaurant Yes Yeah so I basically Just kind of had an idea A thought about the platform That I knew that the reviews were A lot of them could have been falsified It was very easy to falsify Wait I have one question Before you get into that though Yeah I don't understand how You put the restaurant On TripAdvisor Does nobody confirm These places exist Or don't How does that work So yeah No I'll tell you But basically like I looked into it So the reviews Were very easy to leave The accounts You can create Very easily And the restaurants Themselves felt out It felt like something That would be impossible To falsify Yeah So I kind of just like Just started trying it out I was like okay So Okay so Went on it Created a restaurant On TripAdvisor What do I want as the name So I was living What did you call it I was living in a garden shed at the time At the back of someone's house So I just moved to London And it was like The only place I could afford It was£800 a month Which is still not that cheap But anyway whatever £800 a month Per person Just all of it It's literally It was a jet blue Oh sorry I just Sorry Sorry I'm so No it's good It's good Say Per person It was Say per person Per person Oh you're talking about Nothing beats Yeah, that is absolutely hilarious And yeah, so I called it the shed at Dulwich I was living in a garden shed in London at the time Yeah, genuinely You had to put like an address So I just put the name of the road Okay And it didn't make you specify And I was like, well, no one's going to know Because I'm at the back as well So it was like a load of Yeah, you've got cover There's a load of people Six people who lived in the house The main house Yeah And then at the very back I was living in a garden shed And then what else?

43:04She needed like a mobile. So I bought like a kind of drug dealer phone. I love it. From the supermarket. You're living. Yeah. You need a website and you need an email. That was easy to do. And I made this website with the help of my mates. So it was like all these photos on there that looked like gourmet food. And it looked like Michelin star quality food. But the images were actually like cropped versions of bigger images that like six months later when this all went viral and came out. I revealed was like one of the meals that looked like a delicious meal was like an egg on my foot and like another thing and another thing and another thing where have we been all our lives it was like you know these urinal cakes you get and that was like yeah no come on made that look like a pan fried scallop and like had it with that looks like a scallop yeah it does it does put some honey on there some stones from a fish tank And like that was genuinely it was like me and my mate Chris and shaving foam.

44:04So sea foam. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was me and my mate Chris who I'd been working with for Vice who used to have loads of fun doing these weird pieces. And I was like, come over and do this thing. It's not going to be paid because I was doing this on my own. Right. Vice weren't even aware that I was doing this and for a while actually. And yeah, that kind of we I sent all this stuff off to TripAdvisor that the kind of concept behind the restaurant was like it was an appointment only restaurant. Like you can only get a table if you have to apply and we'll like vet you and we'll see what happens. Yeah, it was like, yeah, that was kind of the concept.

44:37The meal, the menu was like you order moods at the shed, not meals. Like you have comfort or whatever. It's all like mood based, which was just, I was just trying to think of wanky things that would like sound like. I mean, it is brilliant though, because, you know, this is the weird thing about a scam is oftentimes a scam is more well thought out than a real thing. Because I'm listening to this and I'm like, I want to go to this restaurant, even though I know it's a scam. Because think about how many times you go to a restaurant and you're like, actually, it's the mood that I'm looking for. Yeah.

45:12Not the food. Like, can I specify? Yeah. I would like that actually. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. That's a genius idea. To be honest, another one of the things I was weirdly even thought about this in a while, but like I was also doing little reviews for like a newsletter, you know, like what's new in London? They would send me to restaurants. So I was already getting a bit of a seeing what it was like. Right, right, right. I remember going to this meal in London at this restaurant and it was like it was small. It was like a taster menu, but it was like a 3D projection of like Marco Polo. Like and it was so crap.

45:49and it was just like so all about the song and the dance and like the food you're getting like this much like a tea every half an hour and then you're back to watching Marco Polo dance around your plate. I think we've made money and uh and maybe a deposition but like yeah it was just so so I'd already had that kind of like it was one of the many things I was trying to do to make a in and writing these food reviews and it was sort of like exposed me to the bullshit. Yeah. And I was like, so you just compounded all the bullshit on this thing. You're like, okay, one thing on top of this, on top of this, on top of this.

46:26I think any good satire, and you'll know this from doing the day show and everything, it's like any good satire, it has to be monkey see, monkey do. It has to be - Yeah, that's true. It has to be what's going on out there in the world. Yeah. Like, and how do we take that to it sort of the logical conclusion? Like what? Okay. There's this Marco Polo restaurant, you know, would be even more interesting if the restaurant restaurant didn't exist yeah yeah but this is all i have the privilege now of thinking about this project like this at the time i was just sort of putting it together and seeing what would work and expecting it to not work so like i sent all that off like all the all the idea of it the concept all that sent it off to trip advisor and expected it to not not work you know to not go live but it went live no vetting no verification it's completely easy to do i was live on the website and that was when I was like okay I suppose I'll try and get some reviews for this now so then I started contacting friends and family I hope you didn't call that other guy which one?

47:25Mr. Bad Review Guy oh him he needs to be kept away he needs to be kept away I think he's spiritually the opposite to this he sees it as his like greater cause in life he was a sweetheart but you know horrendous to be around But he Yeah so I just Started having people Write these reviews And I was getting Family and friends Roping them into it Implicating more people Nice Nicely done Nicely done That's another part Gotta get called Conspirators That's right But I was filming Little bits you know Because I was mainly Writing at the time I wasn't doing documentaries Right I only went on To do those So I just liked writing Because it was really nice To write something It's just you It's your voice You have an editor You clever And that's it Right Whereas when you're Making TV Which I do now There's 30, 40 of you And that's great But it's different It's different So everyone's jumping in Everyone's leaving These five star reviews Yeah, yeah We're going up the rankings Feels serene Oh, wait, wait, wait So you start You start going up On the TripAdvisor rankings Yeah Is this that moment Where you go like Oh, shit, we're on to something Yes, yeah, exactly It was We were number 18 ,000 Out of 18 ,000 in London And then slowly It was like You know Within about six weeks We were up to number 1 ,400 No way Something like that And I was higher than my local restaurants in Dulwich where I was living.

48:45And I was like, that's bizarre. But it felt like nothing. And then one day the phone that I bought for the drug dealer phone calls. And it's like an actual human on the other end of the phone being like, oh, hello there. I know. I love the sound of your mood based meal. Please can I have an appointment this Friday or whatever? And it was the first time that a real person started parroting the mythology to me. And you know I just said to him I'm sorry we're fully booked For the next six weeks Put the phone down Always gets them Yeah But yeah I mean It genuinely does It gets me Like this is it It's like I could have easily been On the other end of that phone I'm not saying I'm better than that No we all are That's what I mean It's like it's so funny How that like it always Doesn't matter who you are Yeah Fully booked for the When you find out The thing you want Has been overly wanted And it's gone Yeah You can't Now you can't stop pining You can't stop thinking about it Exactly You know what I mean fully booked for the next six weeks.

49:44And that was like my mantra from then on. Just kept on saying it. Just fully booked for the next six weeks. Yeah, yeah. For the next six weeks. Fully booked. Exactly. And it was like, you know, started out cute, few calls a day. I was getting emails. Then it just starts, it just keeps on going up and up and up. And the people that you tell no to are the ones who 100 % will call back 10 times, you know. And it was just the momentum just started gathering. And that would be, so that's like four months in. Do you know what I mean? That's like been going on for four months. Slow drip of reviews Because I'm doing it while I'm having to make a living Doing other things It's not like my mum and dad are paying for my rent And I can just sit down, I'm working And then I'm like oh And scamming Scamming and scamming I like that But like you know It was like It just got more exciting The more it went on, got more real People like the local council being like We want to relocate you to an Area we're gentrifying No way.

50:39At reduced rates. No way. Come on. What are you talking about? People applying for jobs. Things like that. Like it was very. It showed how. The government is reaching out to you. Yeah. And offering you tax incentives. Yeah. But you don't exist. Yeah. Can I tell you something? You've exposed a lot about politics. This is my thing. And politicians. This is what I mean about you, Uwe. It's like you. I don't think you understand what an impact you've had on my life. from afar because you you're the reason like ryan who's like sitting here like ryan we we'll always like try fine food try fun and ryan's like a super foodie guy but one day randomly ryan was like i've started doing something crazy and i think it was like after this was like yeah we just go to a place we don't look at the reviews we don't even look a place we just go find a place near you walk in and eat the food.

51:34Yep. And then afterwards, look at the reviews. Interesting. You'll be shocked at how many times the review doesn't match up with how you felt about the review. The experience, yeah. Your personal experience. Just your personal experience. But a lot of that came from you because we were like, wait, wait, wait, wait. If you can create a whole fake world of the best food, then maybe there's also a fake world of the worst food. Right. Like maybe this place is getting shit reviews because people just don't like its vibe. They haven't got the mood right. just walk in and eat the food. And then the second thing you did, like, and I didn't even know about the government side of it is, you just made me realize how much we all, all of it, like you said, no one's sort of better, how we all are so easily duped into accepting a version of reality that we like willingly, you know what I mean?

52:24Like every, the fact that the government contacted you and wanted to give you tax incentives, but had never been to the restaurant never seen it had never seen it had never seen a tax return had never seen nothing then I'm like who else did they move there? yeah that's what I'm thinking yeah because you know sometimes you're in a neighborhood and then all of a sudden there's random restaurants that pop up and you're like how did these restaurants get here? yeah you know the first restaurants to move into a neighborhood yeah and now it's just a bunch of Ubers no offense yeah taking chances all the other all the other joe's witnesses

53:06so okay so this thing so okay now you're at like the peak because i mean once government's calling you it's it's it's on now yeah i mean i was getting called constantly yeah and what the clientele starts changing from like locals to then like tourists to then like uh influencers Different people from like Kind of Who were high up professionals Like having their teams reach out Yeah yeah yeah People from like Calling on behalf of Yeah I mean I think I can say it now Because I don't think they exist anymore But like Universal Studios Wanted to bring their teams Their team over Yeah yeah It was kind of interesting I've actually never said that before So there you go And it was like Yeah It was fascinating Having like And we weren't even number one by that We were getting into the top 50 You know it was like And I think the thing is You said earlier about we had loads and loads of reviews We actually didn't All of our reviews were five stars And the way the algorithm was functioning Was almost like Maybe it functioned like momentum Because I was doing it part time Until it started getting crazy I was like okay this is the best project I need to land the plane on this thing Who knows where it's going You were like I need to get into this restaurant Six weeks Yeah exactly yeah um yeah and then it was just like one of those things where uh i was in a meeting actually with vice is a we're talking about another project wanted me to do and my phone kept ringing and i'm like what the fuck is going on and i'm like yeah and i was like well actually i've been working on this other thing on the side and they were like oh wow this sounds like an epic yeah this sounds amazing and i was like well i've been filming all my me taking all the calls i've been filming myself so yeah okay sounds good and i wanted to write about it anyway but that was the first time where i was like okay maybe maybe i could do on camera stuff as well with this because this feels like it could be that so then they started i started thinking about how i wanted to what what next and i thought if i can get as many people as possible to leave reviews in the next two weeks maybe we'll make number one maybe maybe we'll do that it's like a final push then i started noticing things like people were leaving reviews who had never been there who uh who i didn't know not never been there of course i've never been there people i'm i'm i'm bringing my own this is how big it is yeah i know it's this is yeah do you have a table for two i've had the blue pill in the next six weeks but like yeah there were people who were leaving reviews who i didn't make leave the reviews so it's almost like they said i have the kudos of having been there and so you know i reviewed but they were leaving five stars yes yes exactly that's crazy we have we have now we have reached peak yeah yeah and it was uh yeah that was sort of i think it was uh november 2017 that was then and when we became yeah the number one rated restaurant congratulations man yeah it was it was crazy i was i was uh i remember checking the thing because we'd gone up we were like top three and then we went down to number eight and I was like wow what a story top 10 were you upset about the number eight no I was just like this is insane and then it was number one and I was like then you were happy then you popped it's just like the local councilman

56:18it's just like one of those moments where you know that your life's changed it's not because it's such an insane thing that would happen for it to happen was so crazy and so unlikely and I was like oh okay this is this is probably the craziest thing that's ever going to happen You think you had maybe a little bit of an imposter syndrome, like you felt like you didn't deserve to be there? No, I thought I did. You know what, Trevor? Who are you? You know, I did think, no, I've worked hard to get here. The investment, the website, the burner phone. I mean, you did all the work. Well, the funny thing is, it's like, no, go on, sorry.

56:58No, no, so now tips in. So now, this is what I love Because I remember seeing the footage of the people The night Yeah The night itself This was just like where I was like peak So what is it supposed to be? Opening night? Yeah, well So this is where you've changed another thing I'll tell you what I've changed in my life This literally happened because of you Really? Literally, because of you And then you'll tell the story of the night So when I order food now Especially like in New York But when I order food I'll go to a restaurant Like I'll see any place Whatever it is A restaurant is strong So we could take out Whatever the food is But now I cross reference it With like an actual map So I'll go You know it'll be like Eugene's Rabbit Cakes And I'll be like Oh this place looks good But then I go to Google Maps or whatever Look And I look for Eugene's Rabbit Cakes And then if I You know on the little street thing I'll zoom in And I want to see This place exist Yeah yeah yeah So you do your 360 Yo yo yo Let me tell you something Try it You're gonna see How many times The place doesn't exist Yeah that's true You're gonna see But the food does Yo You're gonna see How many times Was it urine cakes All over again My friend The place doesn't exist Now apparently They came up with a term They call it ghost kitchens Yeah I remember you told me Something about this The place doesn't exist So New York London Even in South Africa Johannesburg now It started as well Yeah I'll be like Oh this place looks good The food looks good as well.

58:27That's the main thing. It's got good reviews. And then I go, but where is this? I'm like, I don't - I've never seen this list. And then I look, nowhere. And they also, they do this thing as well. They have three different names for the same menu. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be like, oh, you know, they'll try something and they will get the like Zuma, whatever, girls. And then they'll get millennial guys, whatever. They'll have different marketing schemes. For the same thing. Same place. Same menu, yeah. I do, yeah, yeah. Same place. And all of this changed because of what you did. So tell us about the night.

58:55Because now you took it like, I mean, you went fully into this thing. Because the reviews is like, all right, whatever. But then you're like, I'm going to make a real night. And people are going to come to it. Yeah, it was. I mean, I lived in it. It was like pretty much a shithole. And it was, you know. Which was number one. It was number one. It was number one. And it was, you know, it didn't look like the best restaurant in London. It looked like just a shack. um and uh i kind of thought you know i'd done so much and i'd proven this big point about online reviewing and like this platform was able to be manipulated wow the crazy all these people want this thing but there's almost like the the the most crazy thing would be to now try and get away with opening it for one night only and serving sort of real customers real food yes so we you know had a plan it was all just based around trying to control the environment but also so basically I had I had eight real customers come in I had a table of two who were two locals who'd been trying to get a table for three or four months had a table of four who were from a big fashion agency who I actually still can't mention because they weren't happy and then try having shaving foam on your little cake if you'll be happy It sounds like a Balenciaga piece It's not them And then we had We had Two American newlyweds From California I know But they were like They've been in Paris Eating on the banks of the Seine the night before And then yeah They were the final table or two They were going to be eating at the shed So it's quite hard to like I want to like just try and capture this in like the best way possible.

1:00:47It was November. It was basically, yeah, it was basically seven, it was eight years ago. This is so fucking crazy. And it was cold. It was kind of wet. So I borrowed all of these heaters from my neighbors. I went around asking, do you want to borrow these for the night? Got them a bottle of wine. I borrowed, my friend ran a cafe around the corner. So I borrowed a load of the tables and the chairs. And then I had half of the people who were eating there. my friends who were pretending to that everything I served them was delicious and that they'd been loads of times completely normal one of my friends actually who now people might know her but Lolly Adafope she's in like Shrill she's in Ghosts she was in the new Armandio Annucci she's so funny but like at the time she wasn't that famous and she was one of the local celebrities who I had like she was yeah she was one of the patrons and it was Yeah, the plan for them was to try and create the same psychological space as TripAdvisor.

1:01:44You know, you have people around you saying something's great. Will that deny you your own senses? Will that deny you your own, you know? And I hired this animal handler as well. So we had all these chickens running around. And the idea was that, I mean, we never actually did this. But the idea was that we said to all the customers, you know, this is like lobsters at a fancy restaurant. Like you can pick a chicken and have it. and then we kill it live. Exactly. But the whole point, and I had a table of two of my mates eating on the roof on a table, which looked like bizarre. It looked like something from a cartoon.

1:02:18But it was, the whole thing was like, I was trying to short circuit their brain as much as possible to try and make them not engage with the reality. Yeah. I was like, you were separating them from reality. I was trying. Yeah. So the way that I did it as well is I met them on the street and blindfolded them and walked them two or three minutes down and then down this garden path. Because I genuinely thought if they'd have seen the front of the house and they'd sit and we had it it's all coming back to me now i'm talking about it we had a we had a dj playing the sound of a real restaurant as well and he had and he had a little uh sample pad that when he pressed it it was the ding of a microwave and the reason was because the food we were serving on the night was actually just microwavable tv dinners but made like ready meals but made to look like michelin quality food so we put like edible flowers micro herbs on it um and yeah i mean it was like it basically we opened for about three hours trying to think of like a way of encapsulating the vibe it was it was it was weird um and i'll focus on the newlyweds the the ones who are on their honeymoon uh because we i remember they look kind of like they're kind of slightly confused but I like came I brought them out their meal which was comfort and it was like mac and cheese basically but made to look like fancy mac and cheese and I like my friend Phoebe who now weirdly again she writes on Ted Lasso not anymore I like I like that it's like a super I really do like that you created a from this moment it's like a you know spin-offs yeah it's like an Ocean's Eleven and everyone went off to do their own thing now in the world.

1:04:02Genuinely, yeah, yeah. Because at the time it was like, yeah, I don't even know. We were all just like, we were like, this isn't going to work. Yeah, and she was like, put it down. She was like, namaste. And then she like said, she disappeared to a part of the restaurant. And we're watching them on. And I remember looking at the lady. So she's like this, she's the bride. And she looks at the food. And she was saying before, she's a foodie. She loves restaurants. She loves eating And all this stuff She looks at the mac and cheese Through her phone And like pauses for a second We're all just watching her And then she just puts it away Without taking a photo That's funny And it was like I was thinking that You know This isn't The jig is up The jig is up And it was actually One of the table of four I was seeing them out At the end of the night You can ask more questions It's just this is how This is all coming to me Yeah and the guy Like Thank you.

1:04:59He didn't look happy. He put me to one side and he was like, so about tonight, now that we've been once, is it going to be easier for us to book again next time? Which is like, yeah, that was like the big moment. It made me think, you know. Made you deserve number one. No, it just made me think that we trust like online hype more than what we put in our mouths. Trust all hype. Yeah. like we trust i mean yeah that that whole you know here's what i what i loved about the scam is you didn't make me feel like any of those people were idiots yeah do you know i mean so even when you watch the footage when you see what's happening i genuinely didn't think to myself ha what a bunch of idiots no it made me go we take for granted how easily we all are manipulated we also take for granted how we think of what is and what isn't in society yeah and and we're all just you know what i mean but but but you can take it you can extrapolate it to everything so politics is is a simple example you know so people will go oh yeah this is politics really good really smart and then if somebody says it around you then do you think that now or do you not think that the comments that you see on your social media what are they making you think or not make you think so when you go down like like you know how sometimes i don't know if you've ever done this i'll watch a video or i'll see a post or you know whatever it is and i started saying to myself i don't know where this came from i started going what do you think about this before i went to the comments because i i realized at some point i was clicking on videos or posts and then i would read the comments and i realized the comments were slowly shaping what i was thinking about it yeah definitely so i would watch a video that i would think is funny and then i'll go into the comments and people like disgusting i can't believe that this is not then i'd be like yeah man that that wasn't nice i'd watch another video and people you know i'd be like oh man that's i'd be like that's cool and people were like this is so lame this is and i'll be like yeah that is lame yeah yeah yeah but you you don't realize how you how it's actually happening to you do you know what i mean i think i think there are very few people there's obviously people on the fringes but i'm sure like most people don't realize that this is happening to them like you're saying that the yum around you yeah you sit at a restaurant yep the person next to you's like oh my god oh my god and you're like what are they oh that looks good what are they having you lean in and excuse me what i'm that guy yeah the restaurant if i'm undecided i look at what looks good from other people's table and I'll be like, what are they having?

1:07:43But I also have realized that if you watch on YouTube, if something is happening live and the comments are live as well, reading the comments while you're watching the content makes you realize we're not watching the same thing. Because also their comments are influenced by where they find themselves. Some people are watching from work. Some people are just catching the tail end of it. Some people have been watching they're fatigued and then you're watching it going, that comment that you just made is totally unrelated to what's happening now. But everyone else who comments after it is like, yeah, you must be right.

1:08:14Although we're using fake names when we're making comments, our opinions are real. But they're not factual. Then it gets interesting around how many, I mean, I mentioned it slightly earlier and it's 100 % true, how many bots are now used on social media? Isn't it like 40 % now? Is it 40 or... I don't know the number, but it's a shocking number. I remember reading the other day that about 40 % of all internet comments and activity is bot. And that, how can that not shape your reality? If my one review for the Greek restaurant in whatever, Peckham, can influence people's minds and my mind, then how can that not?

1:08:5740 % of everything we're reading is... Did you see it the other day where they very briefly changed the Twitter or X, I'm not calling it X, Twitter policy so that where you could see where the account was based. Did you see this? I did not see this. Oh, it was interesting. And loads of quite prominent noisy accounts were all just based in India. And they were saying, you know, I'm based in the US or I'm in. No, no, no. And then they changed it back. Oh, they put it back immediately. And it was really interesting. And I think basically India, the significance of that is a load of the farms are in India.

1:09:34So it's cheap. you know loads of online labor is based out in india isn't it um fascinating absolutely fascinating so i was i mean i just thought well there's bigger and better scams to come no i didn't think no no i i believed you no no no but but you're right about that and you know what this is what i what i think about is like in society we struggle with certain paradigms because you know they're not they're not physical they're not easy to touch they're not like let's say we found out and i mean we still don't really do much about this but if we found out that certain people companies actors whatever were poisoning 40 of our water yeah we would act a certain way and we would think a certain way right for the most part yeah people start putting regulations into effect they go you're not allowed to do this you're not allowed to do if we found out that people, companies, actors were poisoning 40 % of our air, we'd start acting, you know what I mean?

1:10:38And I know there's outliers and people are like, oh, but there's companies that pollute and that's part of the problem. But we don't think about that when it comes to our minds. We don't think about it when it comes to this thing that we can never see and yet is almost more important than everything else in the world. Yeah. Your children are online. 40 % of the stuff That they're consuming Is poisoned And I'm not saying The stuff that comes From other people I'm just saying like Fake Completely poisoned stuff Is going into their heads So your little daughter Is on the phone 40 % of the shit That's coming to her Is poisoned Your little son Is on the 40 % Your grandmother Is on the Your grandfather Your uncle Your aunt You Like 40 % of the things You're consuming Are poisoned And yet we don't think Like that for instance Should just be like a rule in a way you can be anonymous but the way you where you're posting from should have to be but I always think it's going to be the human weakness for the longest time any dilution to any poison is just adding the human element what do you mean?

1:11:40oh if you're selling something dangerous as long as you put someone in there that's why they had to put regulation for advertising with cigarettes people were having such a good time smoking yeah Janet was the same Mainstay it was just like the rest of your life yeah then people were just having a good time. The Marlboro Man, all of this stuff. It was, once you put the human element, the danger, the poison gets diluted because you think, this person is doing it. I could be doing it. I could be having a good time as well. And I think the scourge or the opposite of what we're feeling with bots is influencers.

1:12:13So the bots can do exactly what the influencers can do. But once you put a human in it, is it really that bad? Because also I've seen the trend now, the content that influencers are taking is not taken by the influencers. anymore it's more stylized now it's more cinematic they're actually featuring in the ad where they were supposed to be doing it from the point of view so now you see all of them who else before used to see their hands or their feet and them interacting with the product but now i'm like who's the other person operating now they're part of the product the editing has become so great and these apps that apparently it's funny you say the story to interrupt you i saw i saw a video the other day um about this it it was just so good man there was a video and it starts so sad it's this tiktok and it's this woman and she's by her bed and you know that the caption reads that you know the thing and and you know that voice comes on it's like when why you choose the person in your life you know the voice you know you know personally do you know but you know that voice But you know that voice Because there's only like The two voices There's the one that's like When I found out I was going to It's that voice The AI one Yeah whatever that voice is And then there's the other one It's like These men were fighting Their way out of man Yeah But this one was like You are that voice I love that voice You are both of them Who'd have thought They were bots It would be so funny If they were real people Somewhere You know there's somebody Like at a restaurant And they're like I called for a table For two Could you tell me what time my reservation will be ready?

1:13:49So like in the video, there's this woman and she's by her bed and the caption reads, like, be careful who you choose as your partner because they will need to be with you in the toughest times. And she's like, this is the day I found out my dad died or the moment I found out something like that. And you see her like, she's like crying by the bed. And then her husband comes in and like looks at her. And then she like Sort of tells him I just found out my dad died And you can see He's like no And then the video And he embraces her And it's sad And it's beautiful And then a jump cuts To some guy who's like Okay okay hold on Hold on He's like Who put the camera there?

1:14:26He's like who? Yeah Who was filming this? Did you put a tripod? Did he start filming? Yeah Because you found out Your dad died In this moment You're saying that You found out in this moment so when did he how did this and he was just like he was just puncturing this world this thing you're talking about where like influences now to your point the way influences sort of started was from a very authentic place yep hey guys so I went to this place today like you said point of view and vibe and then they became like a part of it yep and then they started synthesizing things and then you run out of content so you gotta like make the content Now you have to suffer tragedies You have to discover things You have to fight You know what I mean And so sorry You get what I'm saying It's exactly the world you're talking about I think And the whole point was that it was democratized right That was the whole thing It was like okay anyone Name your price I can just do whatever Now it's like Now it's almost like every single member of the public Views themselves as an influencer Oh that's fully what it is And then there's these people above who get You know who get paid money to do who actually still get money from brands.

1:15:39And also it's sold as almost autonomy of some sort because you can name your price, you can do it your way, but we'll obviously have the last say of how it's done and then you can just put it out there and you have no control of it from then onwards. Because that's what happens with influencers. But when I realized what Ring Doorbell was, because it's not popular in South Africa, but it's popular here, I was thinking to myself, there's only two ways that they can sell this thing. It's either by fear, break-ins, how it can prevent a break-in. And they started with the ads like that when people were shouting but then I realized the other strategy was Amazon packages being stolen from the door and then all of a sudden two steps running away explode and people start finding that funny and they thought well if I have a package that gets delivered and I want to make sure that then I think to myself this these people are actors because the packages always explode before they get to where they're going no one ever gets out of shot You mean when they fill it with like confetti?

1:16:38No, no, with paint. Paint, yeah, yeah. Yes. But no one has ever gotten inside the car and the thing, because that would have been funny and genuine at the same time. Right. But everyone is, and I'm like, oh, there's one way to sell this thing. Yes. And the packages are unmarked. Who gets an unmarked package delivered to their door? But even just the pumping of viral content from Ring Doorbells, that is packages being stolen, is an amazing advert for a Ring Doorbell. You're so right. I've never even thought about that. That sucks. God. Yeah. Have I punctured your reality? I mean, you constantly, you are a puncture in my reality.

1:17:17That's, I mean, come on. I'll drink that. Yes. No, it's like, yeah, I, because I understand that, you know, living life is the paradox of what is and what isn't all the time. So I don't ever want to be One of those people who goes Nothing's real Everything's fake Because most things are Sort of fake And that's a good thing Like our names are all fake Yeah We respond to them But that's not a thing really You know what I mean So there's certain Constructs that society Has to agree on For things to Like a traffic light I'm always fascinated by traffic lights Yeah Because I go like It's just the color I really I don't know I swear on my life I don't know why I like get giggly when I'm at a traffic light and then I go, guys, this is not real.

1:18:06It's like, it really makes me happy when I see people stop or go. Because I'm just like, I'm like, yo, it's like, people really stop. Like when I see a car screech to a halt. Because they're like, oh, the light. You just ruined that for me. Yeah, but I'm like, I'll never see the same thing. No, so, but society needs these things. Acceptable absurdity. Yes. Society functionally needs artificial constructs for us to function language religion culture all of these things where is it uh uh there's that book harold garfinkel book in 60s uh some studies of ethno methodology or something like that where he uh i wasn't reading books in the 60s you're gonna have to you're gonna have to go with you no no it's exactly what you're talking about yeah it's basically he's a i i find academic writing often really bad i'm really hard to get into because it's just so dense.

1:18:59A lot of academics can't write and they kind of hide behind language to cover it up. But that's fine. Shots fired. No, no, no. And that's not their job. Their job is to be an academic. You know what I mean? It's like when I've got like, you know, you have writers who then read all that and then make it like something I want to read. But anyway, there's this book that he wrote, this Howard Garfinkel guy. And he just had a load of his students doing loads of really absurd things that subvert. I think it was in New York, maybe. Subvert the, Just like things like the rules of Waiting in line or Going into a restaurant and There's so many they're very funny They're very funny but now I think Ethically slightly dubious Like I think as an academic to do them But like yeah I think that there was I think you might like it I'll check it out because it's just like It's they're just Very funny it's funny it's like oh It just breaks how you Think reality is supposed to work Loads of students he's going to get all of his students to wait at the same set of traffic lights.

1:19:57And the whole day, they're going to cross on the red on when it is, don't cross. That would be like an experiment he might do. Yeah, yeah. That's like an example. And then you see what happens to the people around them. Yeah, exactly. That's it. It's the impact on the people around them. So you see where the tipping point is. If one person crosses at a red light. Are they going to follow or not? No one will. Two people, no one, three. And then you get to a tipping point where like the group does it. And you see a person go, oh, I guess that's what we do. And they just like, they just waddle across with you.

1:20:22Yeah, yeah.

1:20:26but it, but it, don't do that in the end of traffic. No, but I, I don't know, man. I just, I just think like, yeah, like the reality that we accept or the reality that causes us to fight, the reality that causes us to hate other people, the reality that causes us to think the way we think is so fragile. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Don't press anything. We've got more. What now? After this. Hey everyone, it's Stavros Halkis and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, Stavi's World. Each week, we're joined by great guests like Josh Safty, Eric Andre, Caleb Heron, and more. It's sort of an interview show, but really, we're just messing around, making each other laugh, and hopefully making you laugh while you're washing the dishes or grocery shopping or on a long drive.

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1:22:33I did another, I did another, so I met a fellow a couple of years ago with Channel 4, which is like part of the BBC. It's like, it was all about Amazon, because you mentioned Amazon, ring doorbells. Oh, the urine? Yeah. Oh, I love this one, man. Tell me about it. The urine. I'll give you the backstory. You got to tell them. Yes. So remember a story came out about Amazon workers being so pressed in their environment, in the warehouses. Everything in their environment was timed. Their performance was measured. They're tracked across the floor. Some of the worst like working conditions in that way, right?

1:23:07And because they weren't unionized, no one could do anything about this. The whole thing. Modern day sweatshop. Yeah, basically. and like one of the worst things about the story was the drivers and the workers in the warehouse would talk about how their time was so you know like it was like in a draconian way measured to the to the finest degree that they couldn't even risk going to the to the toilets they couldn't go to the bathroom so what they would do yeah what they would do is in the truck in the warehouse they would just pee into a bottle exactly yeah and then just carry on working no one would leave no one would so yes modern day sweatshop and then the story like blew up and it was like the Amazon workers are peeing into the bottles and then Amazon was like meh did you cover it on the show yeah we did yeah we did and it was we were just like what the hell what did Amazon say like the cost of what does Amazon ever say do you know what I mean come on these people they've never come out and be like yeah we make them pee I mean you know how it is bro hey who lost the business no but like really I wish one day a company would do that be like yeah and then what we made them pee in bottles did you get your package yeah you get your package man shut you know no but they don't don't dust it for fingerprints yeah but they didn't they basically and they were like oh we're looking into this but it's not what you this is no this is fabricated blah blah blah blah but anyway so that was the story yeah I now hand over to my my favorite scam artist in the world so I did the so basically yeah I did this film hour long special about Amazon a few years ago two years ago and one of the things I did is I went and worked in one of the warehouses which is near where I grew up in Feckenham So you got the job?

1:24:45I got a job I worked there on the cover and I had a camera on But how? You see I need you to explain these things He's wide This is Can you stop with the how already? You ever had blue eyes and blonde hair? It's true It's true It's true It's true There's a world that you and I will never understand. Because can I tell you what's funny about Uma's stories is in Uma's stories he gets a job as part of a scam. Then there's someone else like I just want the job. Just how did you get the job? Uma is the reason why Idris Elba will never be James Bond. He can never just work any way. He's white. The TV has to go are you white?

1:25:35Yes. Okay then. But you see you know what I like you're using your privilege my friend because these experiments we can't be Eugene and I can't be messing around now we would go to an Amazon factory we'd be like I'm undercover and then 15 years later we'd still be there packing yeah you'd be like what happened Eugene what happened Trevor I work here man I'd be like you can leave you came on it was a scam no man Jeff's not gonna be happy if we don't get these packages hold on yeah yeah yeah

1:26:08it's true it's true no you're absolutely right like you're absolutely right remember when i first started doing stuff with vicing because i grew up somewhere i was 100 percent white basically and the feckernum was 100 yeah no feckernum come on yeah yeah yeah like you know about half an hour away in in in redditch is the cloak well that's not even half an hour 20 minutes away in redditch really close where we grew up we didn't have a car growing up so we just i just in the village is like you know there's a big south asian diaspora yeah like and traditionally there was a there was a caribbean diaspora as well but it's sort of less than over the years more in birmingham um and uh it was interesting having that experience of having um of having my white privilege called out for the first times in the comments and stuff and having grown up with as white but without money i was like my privilege but that can i tell you grew up working And now, particularly since I've moved here, I'm like, oh no, like I've had to obviously completely be educated in that by friends, you know, and I try not to get my head around that.

1:27:12But yeah, it's massive. And I was an idiot. I wished I was taught about that in school. Yeah, but here's the thing that's complicated about it. I'm not an academic, but I fight with academics about this all the time. I think some of these concepts While true Are not explained Correctly to people Yeah You know what I mean So I remember when people Would talk like You know Because some of these things Become you know In vogue Fashionable In moments You know like So white privilege It really had its moment Check your privilege Check it at the door Post your black square Yeah yeah You post that black square You know what I mean So And leave a review Yeah Black square Five stars jerk chicken fantastic exactly so curry good and I got curry good they go on the fish and chips one star the food was terrible but I understand why five stars no so here's this is just my opinion but I mean a lot of these things are even the academic ones and that's maybe my first issue by the way is that a lot of the time academics will make it seem like it isn't their opinion.

1:28:25They distance themselves. You see what I'm saying? Yes. So they'll put forth an idea. Yes. And they work in a space where they study. Research is their favorite word. Yes, but it is an opinion. Yes. Right? It is an opinion. It may be an opinion that holds true for the most part, but it is still an opinion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the argument I would have with people is this. You may be right. You may be wrong. But you also have to acknowledge the way you're explaining this to somebody isn't correct, right? Because you make it seem like it's a hard and fast rule that is constant in every single environment in the exact same way all the time.

1:29:01Yeah. Okay. So when people were like, white privilege, check your privilege. When I would talk to white people and who would go, the thing that I saw people struggling with is there were people who were like, I'm poor, I'm homeless, I'm struggling. Where's the privilege? Where's the privilege? Yeah. Please, can you help me figure out where? Because I would like to access it. I would love to access this privilege And the best analogy I came up with Was golf Golf Is one of my favorite Like ideas for a sport Because even though golf is The most You know what I mean It's the most like This is like elite Not in Scotland Kids all grow up on a council estate playing golf Yeah, because it's like cricket in India Yeah, the home Because of the home of it Exactly Whereas cricket in England's posh Properly posh And like And I do it in South Africa, I'm assuming No, yeah Cricket schools are one of the best schools Yeah, but cricket itself though In the township, they play it as well Do you know what I mean?

1:30:03Yeah Not as much anymore But yeah We have a huge South Asian diaspora in England No South Well, very few South Asian players play for England It's kind of insane It's all posh private school Oh yeah, I mean But that's who you know, where you know No, it's just weird, isn't it? Because football has become democratic. Yeah, it has. I think it kind of always has been, to be honest. But football is democratic, whereas it's interesting that these old school sports like cricket, we're on a different thing now. Go ahead. No, no, no. Just like it's interesting the way I always look when I'm watching cricket as a fan, and I'm like, new players come through.

1:30:37Great. And I go and I do this every time. Wikipedia, what school? For fuck's sake. I just want him to not be going to a posh school. I just want him to have gone to a normal school Government school Just a normal state school Oh man A normal state school That's all I want So wait all the English cricket players are like Most of them But then the really great ones are always Not posh kids This is my This is now coming in my Coming in my like This is That's the thing we're I mean this is a classic isn't it But we're obsessed with class in England It's different But you see now that comes back to what we're saying about privilege Yeah The loop of privilege is this.

1:31:17When you go white privilege, if you're not careful, you make people think that that privilege attached to your whiteness is a constant thing. Whereas you see like in golf, they go to your handicap. It's a very simple principle. It means at your current position in the game, this is how much we need to adjust the game so that you have a fair chance. But that handicap can change. It can go down and it can go up. So if you get good enough We're not going to give you any advantage But if you get bad enough We're going to give you as much advantage as you need But they acknowledge that the handicap can change And I think that's interesting The variable, yeah So it's not Because I don't like that we make these things seem permanent And constant regardless of the situation you're in Because Class And there was a writer I wish I could remember her name One of the most brilliant writers We'll just put her on the screen while I'm saying this Her name is Renny at a Lodge Maybe, maybe But she said something about, she said the phrase, and I'll paraphrase it, what she said about the US and many places.

1:32:16She said, I can't wait for America to finish the conversations about race so that they can understand that they're just at the bottom of discussing class. Yeah. Because race is a proxy for class for most people. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's shorthand for class. It is shorthand. So it's like, yes, black attached to being poor. Poverty. Yes, but it does not mean that black itself will always be the thing that suffers. It means that poor will always be the thing that suffers. Yeah, I would say that just having an accent, I have a subtle accent, and I've lost it the more time I've spent in London and the more time I've spent nine years in London.

1:32:52I've been here for two years. But like, it's interesting just how obviously here it's like, you know, I'm just an English guy. Yeah. And a white English guy, but I'm an English guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like in England, you know, you're always where what class you grew up with. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter how much money you have, really. I can assume even like the way you say class, I'm sure people are like, are you sure you can afford this? Right. No, it's true, though. Yeah, but you're either part of the, I mean, you know, you're either part of the, so 4 % of the population in the UK go to private school.

1:33:28And they represent most of the executive positions in all the companies. Yeah. And now they're getting into entertainment, which is fantastic as well. Love it. Let's have that. That's fantastic. But like, you know, you either want. So basically it's like, and then they have, you have hereditary positions of in the government, the house of lords, you have lordships that you can inherit, all that stuff. So we still have like a proper, proper ruling class. Yes. Proper ruling class. And that's like, probably the English people watch this now would be like, fuck you. You don't, whatever it's changed or whatever.

1:34:01But I don't think it has. And I think that like It will never change And being here It's crazy how It's a different system As you said Race plays Is a much much much Bigger part of it You said race Race is a proxy Yeah but I would argue In the US What happens is Money becomes the class Like so Yeah So what happens is Yes race is a big one But then one of the tools That can help you Is money So convince And not necessarily The possession of it but the access that it gives you to things. Yeah. So if you are in the business class lounge, there's going to be an element, but still your race might be the difference where like let's say you walk ahead of me into the business class lounge.

1:34:44Yeah. You might just walk in and then when I walk in, someone will go, excuse me, are you business class? You know what I mean? But now because of maybe fame, someone will be like, oh, of course, Mr. Noah, come in. Like recently when we were in Australia, this was so funny because here's my thing. I wasn't in Australia. Yeah, he wasn't. That means we as in. No, we, so me and the crew. The royal we. Yeah, the royal we. I was there by myself. I was very close with that. No, so we're in Australia and I was on tour there. And there's moments where, I think you know what I'm saying. There's certain racisms or whatever you want to call it, prejudice, where you just have to laugh at it and poke it.

1:35:26So we're standing in, and it's very distinct. we're flying Qantas airlines that's really how you get around Australia in that way and I think we're flying out of Perth and it's myself and my two friends from South Africa so it's me, Ryan, Slevojo so here we are and we're standing together in this line and then the promoter Sebastian he's with us so Sebastian's the only white guy so we're all there together but we're together in the line airport's basically empty we're in the business class line right confidently in that line it's clearly marked and we're in it do you have the business class line cockiness of headphones not not even i'm just we're just there okay away suitcase yeah the cockiness of business class one of one of the employees comes over she walks up to us walks past sebastian that was the key thing walks past sebastian who's like in front of us, says nothing to him, comes straight to me and then goes, she's like, oh, excuse me.

1:36:36Oh, this is a business class line. Oh, God. Yeah. And then I said, yes, yes it is. And then she just stared at me because now she was hoping that I would now do the whole like, oh, sorry, I'm not in. But I was just enjoying it so much. I was like, yeah. And the way I said it, I was like, yes, this is a business class line. and then she went oh are you are you in business class and then I was like why else would I be standing in this line who's asking then she's like oh alright I just want I want to show if you're in business class then I was like I don't know if this guy's in business class but she didn't know that I knew Sebastian so I'm just pointing at this random white guy then I was like I don't know if he's in business class yo are you in business class this is a business class line and then she's like oh yeah I'm sure he's in business club and I was like I'm not in business club and then you could see she just like she had this moment where she was like so those are moments where I go yes you know your money maybe your favorite it happens in your building all the time my man all these things all the time all these things so you are you but yes but what I no no for sure for sure for sure and you hear the dial up facts that's but that's what I mean is like I feel like what we don't do enough of is the handicap analogy is really is really good yeah we don't we don't we don't we don't discuss these things dynamically and then and then we live in a world where and maybe the bots don't help right is that we don't get into a position where we can then discuss it as people and say okay so when does this happen and when doesn't it happen and how does it happen because otherwise you're just going like hey man white guy you're a superhero nothing can go wrong in your life and then white guy goes a lot of shit i don't have a job i'm living in my mom's basement i'm Do you know what I'm saying?

1:38:27Yeah. Times are tough. Times are tough. You can never live that one time. Your grandfather's like, come on. Yeah, yeah. Only that one time. It was just once. And he deserved all of it. All the shit he got, he deserved it. That's good. That's really good. That's good. So now we're like, you know what I mean? Yeah, totally. So what I, this is part of what I like about your work is, sometimes I think as people, the academic discussion of ideas limits us because it's like how do we see the world? How do we think we see the world? How do we want to be seen to be seeing the world? How do people see us seeing the world?

1:39:09How do they respond to how we see the world? How do we see them seeing? It's too much. It's too much. But then when you conduct it as like just an experiment, as a thing that people do, you just do it. Yeah. First of all, I feel like it removes the lens. so we're watching people leave fake reviews or write or come to a fake restaurant yeah we're watching we're watching people you know what i mean so like your your amazon thing which i want you to talk about because it's it's sort of goes into this world yeah it's one thing to write an article about hey guys amazon doesn't really do a good job of protecting you as a consumer as a customer they're really unscrupulous yes they're convenient yes they're great yeah but you know at the same time we have to ask ourselves if these people you can go into that foreverness or you can just sell urine on amazon but but you can sell amazon workers urine on amazon yeah and prove that it exists yeah but and and it makes such a yeah sometimes i feel like the you know it's it's trying to that yeah it's i was trying to do is it's sort of uh trying to figure out like what is a it's essentially like that same thing of like what is a symbol or a often in like in in the world like the stuff that catches on and the stuff that actually starts changing people's minds or something is like just a really simple symbol yes like something yeah i remember when this is an example you guys won't won't know probably why because we're black i'm sorry i'm sorry i i just And you were waiting I was waiting You had that in the chamber You were like Oh yeah You were like Oh yeah I got you little Uber boy I got you Any move You know what You were waiting Next thing he says Next thing he says Because I'm black You could have said anything Anything Anything Anything You could have said that And if Eugene was Written with me Ready with me Yeah Eugene was Ready for you The blaster Eugene was ready for you Han Solo Oh man, I've had a great time with you guys Because I'm black Oh man, I didn't think I was going to say that I surprise myself sometimes No, there was a guy There was a politician He was a Labour politician He was a guy called Ed Miliband I remember Ed Miliband His whole thing He looked like he was going to become the Prime Minister This was like, you know, after five years of like Bad Conservatives and Lib Dems And he ate a bacon sandwich badly And then it was like it was all done It was done It was done And it was almost like that Encapsulated he was this out of touch You know whatever And it was like you know The son that printed it Which is a like you know Rag that Rupert Murdoch runs One of those conservative tabloids Yeah And yeah he printed like a picture of him Eating a bank He was struggling with a bacon sandwich And it was kind of over It was bizarre I remember that was stuck in my head There's a million examples of that here You'd probably sit and think of one There was one where Mini Mike was one that Trump did to Bloomberg That just killed it Yeah, that one destroyed it But there's also one where Who ate pizza with a knife and fork in New York?

1:42:25They were running for president Was it Mitt Romney? Maybe it was It was over just like that Pizza Have you ever seen an advert But this is a completely off topic Have you ever seen an advert where Trump eats the pizza backwards? It's insane Can I tell you That's why I think Trump doesn't eat anything in public anymore. But he states it backwards. I'm going to go look at this now because I... It's a pizza advert. You can do it now. I actually didn't think of that. Thank you. We're not the BBC here. I actually need to see this. We're freewheeling. I need to see this. It's very bizarre. You know what sucks though is like now in like a few years, all of these things will become boring because people are like, oh, that's probably AI.

1:43:07Images, yeah. Yes We're losing that now Yeah Should I Backwards Should I carry on with piss Yeah tell us Tell us Tell us how you sold urine What a nice segue While he While he While he pulls it up Yeah Tell him Cause he knows the story I'll help your appetite While I prepare the pizza While the backwards pizza Is in the oven I'll prepare you An aperitif

1:43:39I love that word Aperitif Sounds better than palate cleanser Palate cleanser sounds like mouthwash I hope I haven't got this wrong There it is, wow It's an interesting image He survived it, it almost helped him

1:43:58That's what he says before he eats pizza I love pizza so much Give me my slice It's funny, mate. Is that how they do it in Queens? I mean, this is a person who's probably never eaten pizza or like just lived in another world. He's like, yeah, regular people do it. Like, is this how you do it? I do it all the time. I do it all the time.

1:44:24You end with the finger. That's bizarre. Yeah, so basically I went and worked at this warehouse. I got a job there. Didn't keep the job. I worked there for a few days because it was the closest warehouse outside of the one in Staten Island to unionizing. We went and worked there. We'd heard all this stuff. And now I was working with like Channel 4, which is like the BBC, public service broadcaster, is like six months of legal work to get in there with a camera. You know, it's not, I can't just like start writing reviews. Now I'm working in TV. It's different. So we had to prove wrongdoing. We had suspicion of wrongdoing.

1:44:59We went in there eventually. It was crazy. It was like this dystopian, And like you have airport style security scanners you have to go when you come off the warehouse floor. And I worked back in Studley near Fekinham. I worked in a car factory. It was nothing like that. You know, there's a level of respect that you have when you're working in a warehouse even. In Amazon, it was... Yeah. It's just like they scan you like you're like, I don't know, going through TSA or whatever every time you come off the warehouse floor. And they monitor you. So you have this score. that this is what happens. Everybody on the, you have this thing that's connected to your account and the more you scan and the slower you scan, the worse your score is basically.

1:45:42What else was there? Oh, there was another worker who actually went public after this but didn't want to go public in the film who left, it was a couple of weeks before I got there, before I started working there, had a heart attack on the warehouse floor and then had to leave in an ambulance to the hospital and then got a warning, formal warning for leaving work early it's crazy absolutely crazy and uh yes it's this sort of dystopian thing i got caught on the third day someone recognized me for my other work and pull me to one side and they're like what the fuck are you doing here and uh i got pulled off there and uh yeah it was interesting and then basically i wanted to do something about their work because i wanted to come up with a stunt that would cut through and would have a level of impact so I was hanging out outside a lot of the fulfillment centers and noticed there were bottles of piss everywhere outside of the fulfillment centers I was it was initially I spotted them in Glendale just the one the closest one in LA California yeah yeah just in LA and then I was in I did it in London at the one in Queens every single one I've been to and I probably still exactly the same there's bottles of piss outside all over the world and I stopped spoke to drivers and they told me that this was them and the reason why it worked that way i stopped someone else and she was a manager who have a dispatch manager who manages the drivers and she said the way it works is if you have 10 but if they catch you you come back into the after your shift um with a bottle of piss in your car then you get a point against your name and if you get 10 points you're in trouble so the what they do is as they're driving back in they chuck it out the window because they think okay right i need to get rid of it or i'm gonna to get in trouble so what i did was sort of like i collected a load of the bottles of urine repackaged them as like a one of those kind of new influencer energy drinks called release energy and uh and then i actually released infection okay so so i let no no then i put it on uh i put it on so yeah we as another thing as well was uh we spoke to female drivers who got utis from holding it in as well like so guys would piss bottles they would get easy eyes and then listed it on amazon as a drink uh said what it was on the label didn't didn't hide what it was it was like this is bottles of urine collected from amazon drivers and then i made that in the same way that i kind of did the restaurant because i knew it would be a story if it worked again i didn't know it would work i thought it would be flagged because it said urine urea on it everywhere it was listed as a drink as an energy drink um and i made it a number one drink on amazon so it's literally a number one drink on amazon on the platform it became this big story came out and massively viral again was covered everywhere but what it meant is that people were talking about this story that if it was earnestly reported yeah that's exactly what the model that you guys have at the show had at the show was how do you make people talk about this thing how are you going to break the spell of like because amazon's in the way they run their cut their user experience as a as a customer is amazing yeah it's flawless So it's like, how do you break the spell a little bit?

1:48:49And I never once in the film said, delete your Amazon or whatever. It's like, no, no, let's just like make people think about this thing. But it ended up being like, yeah, it was crazy. And, you know, it ended up going viral, that stunt when it came out. And it was basically exactly what I wanted it to do, you know. And I had this other whole thing about filling in potholes at Amazon's expense as well. like I basically noticed how Amazon you know don't pay much towards taxes essentially they they like avoid a lot of corporate taxes like in 2020 they paid zero in corporation tax in the UK so I thought you know Amazon still uses the infrastructure that our taxes pay for but they don't contribute they don't contribute to its growth and maintenance yeah oh fair play hey, Amazon, make your money, do your thing.

1:49:39You got to pitch in. And like, how quick can Amazon make a prime delivery without the roads that our taxes pay for? Yeah. So what I did is I ordered a load of cement from Amazon and then I went in, fill in potholes around in California and in the UK and filled them in. And then I went down to the beach, filed for a refund, filled the packages with sand. And then sent it back. And they just gave you your money. They gave me my money back. And I remember telling in the film that I made about this, I tell my lawyer and he's like, that's not clever. That's just fraud. Just fraud. Where were you? Finally.

1:50:12My whole life. Finally. Exactly. The camera doesn't matter. You've committed fraud. But basically what I'd done, and this was to make a bigger point, was before I did any of that, I went and I made an offshore company in Belize that has very secret privacy laws. And I made an Amazon business account for that company. and then so technically the the the crime was committed by this offshore company in belize it was an offshore offshore issue which is the same mechanic that amazon uses to avoid paying taxes it's like the same set up man so yeah i managed to get around getting in trouble by using the same way that they avoid paying taxes and uh yeah the name of the company was whole maintenance and repair corp which as an acronym is hmrc which is the british yes yeah um but yeah that was like it you know that's like that film two years ago the first one we talked about eight years seven eight years ago you know in that time you have to that sort of i suppose maybe captures how slightly the works moved on do you know what i mean like you're kind of slightly trying to i don't know it's a similar thing and i think that the world has changed a lot in that time i think that like now where it used to be that that you know i was creating these things that were like fictions that would somehow almost go up to the line before they go they cross it yeah i opened the shed for one night only when we opened the shed for one night only uh there was a company in dubai wanted me to open up the shed in dubai and to make it a real restaurant chain and all that stuff if i'd have wanted to if i was just making money i'd have been like well screw the film just do this thing let's just have a chain of restaurants called the shed and get a load of investment whatever burn it would make the take some money i mean that's one of the more recent projects you've started working on that i think has has also given me a a clearer view of how how fragile the money ecosystem is that we live in you know because like it's also it's another insane project but you basically set yourself the target of making was it a million dollars a million pounds a million pounds three yeah one point three million dollars in 90 days 90 days yes but you but you it has to be legal yeah and it had to be yeah that's right yeah yeah so this came out just two months ago this is the latest film for british television but what it you know that film what it it was a kind of reaction to uh hustle culture you know and like how much of our cultural oxygen is just around making money and how much of that you know so here's what i what i what I don't like is and this happens with various different fields and spheres you know when people talk about hustle culture it's now been co-opted by a group of people who sort of because hustling was a thing that a lot of people did in like a really meaningful way I know it sounds crazy to say that but it's like a lot of people hustle do you know what I mean I think we all hustled yeah you hustled to do your thing your parents hustled your hustling was like i gotta i gotta hustle i gotta no you're right yeah yeah really what this this is is like it's scam culture it's not hustle culture it's scam culture it's how can you make as much money as possible as quickly as possible as quickly but also most importantly most importantly with somebody else being the victim in some way shape or form are you selling some sort of online course are you getting people to invest in a thing yeah that will never pay money back are you you You know what I mean?

1:53:45But that whole, and this is the thing that you're 100 % right. And I think that the thing that, as I said, from the start of when I started doing what I was doing to now, the whole world's changed. And now we are living in the fake reality. Like we are all, we're all dining at the shed. The fake has become real. We're all eating the microwavable ready meals. We're all eating my egg on a foot. Like the way that I see, I look at the stock market, the biggest eight companies, how many of them actually, NVIDIA apart from them, they make chips. Yeah. How many of them, the value of these stocks now have no semblance to reality.

1:54:17No. It's like now everybody is making a shed. Yes. The whole economy has been remade. No one's actually making anything. So it's like when you were saying about, you're exactly right about the culture of these money, the hustle culture thing is the grift is taking place when you are convinced that this person can lead you to the promised land of financial security. Yeah. The moment, like my mom and dad, when we were kids, we lost a load of money in a pyramid scheme. Well, not a load, but enough that it was significant in our house. And a very popular one, which everyone would know. But that kind of made me kind of a little averse to those types of things.

1:54:59When I hear about constantly having people say, oh, you should buy into this crypto client. buy into this uh this this um you know this uh course that can help you make a load of money and make you rich or whatever i've always thought the structure of the way that a lot of people a lot of people are monetizing their audiences is like they're selling them hope as you're saying that's that's the that's the biggest thing for me is like it and they they do a good job of conflating it with the hard work that people are doing and because what what they do is they're I find they're really good at hiding in crowds is the way I like to think of it.

1:55:36So what they'll do is they go like, so what are you saying? There's something wrong with making money? It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're slick. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with making money. Are you saying it's wrong to sell things? I'm not saying that. Are you against capitalism? I'm not saying any of these things. What I'm saying is you are running scams on people, right? I ask people this all the time. When you're gonna go to a course where someone's gonna teach you how to make money, Ask yourself Where they get their money from Exactly I'm not saying don't go But ask yourself Where they get their money from If that person gets all their money From you From you Telling you how to make money But They aren't going off And doing the investment things They're making their money from you Yeah it's like getting a financial advisor Once you're successful Where was the advice?

1:56:25Yeah it's like all of these things if we're not careful but it is true it's really that it's like it's like and it has become it has become way more scammy in that world but then the art and craft of hiding in the crowd is then making it seem like it's like the all of us so what are you saying we shouldn't it's like no I'm not saying don't advertise a thing but don't act like you did use it don't act like you know what I mean don't act like you there's certain things where you're like Yo man at what cost The crypto thing is fascinating Making this film So it was literally A follow doc A lot of the stuff I do Is way more Like I'm like It sounds a mess But I mean the shed thing No but like the Amazon thing Planned out And I kind of know What I'm going to do You never know You're going to get caught When you're working at Amazon On the floor And they pull you off And say what the hell Are you doing here You should have been like Man my life fell apart man Get up here Before you kick me out Can I use the toilet Yeah you'd be like Yo man You know what's funny is after they kicked you out, you got a notice on your record.

1:57:31They're like, left early. I remember getting loads of emails from them saying, why haven't you shown up to work? No. After you were kicked out. I remember saying, I said to like, because I had to get training to do undercover because I was like, this guy's basically a bullshitter and we're letting him do a proper journalist job here. Like we're training him. And I was like, if I get caught, can I just say I'm doing undercover boss? and just say congratulations congratulations you did it you did you are promoted they found her but they were like we are going to rescind your permission to do this no uh but uh yeah so coming back yeah so that that doc the one about making a million you know you follow me around for 90 days the thing that i just kept on getting thrust down uh because it was it's basically i moved to new york while i was making that yeah it's reacting to being in new york it's a very unique culture i think in terms in what way hustle just hustle yeah and the way and that comfort with which people and i don't necessarily mind this but it's very different to europe the way people talk about money the way people breathe money the possibility of money the way it moves around you know you meet someone you know one of our main contributors and that is the co-founder of venmo he's got ikram and within 10 minutes of meeting him he's like we're making a company together it's worth 10 million dollars already and i'm like what like what is this guy talking about but like he's made Venmo so clearly he knows what he's talking about and then you know in the time that I I know him throughout the thing he tries to say to me you should make a cryptocurrency with me I said I don't know man you know I don't like that stuff I don't love it not saying it's bad just personal you know personal just have a little bit of an aversion to it he asked me to get involved in a coin with him and then if I'd have invested in that point we tried to fact check this and it's tricky but he basically the coin that he asked me to get in with him on was like ended up becoming, this is easy to fact check, the number one trending meme coin on the planet for a day.

1:59:29It made$250 million. This thing did. And it was like, and I think the thing that I can't fact check, but he said if you'd have put in$500 that day, you'd have made a million. And it was just like one of those things where I was like. Yeah, but you see, the sentence that isn't completed is, this is what I like about these money stories. They say you would have made a million. Right. What they should say is you would have taken a million Right That's my issue with all of these ideas There's no way you made it Yeah Because you didn't make the thing It comes from somewhere Because if we look at like Oh no that's 100 % right But you get what I'm saying A lot of the time people make it seem like The reason I would say people used to use the phrase You're going to make money Is because really it was an exchange Of a service of a good Of a service of a good Alright I need a leather shoe from you Eugene You need oranges from you And we're going to use money to help smooth over this.

2:00:21It makes sense. It's a promise. Yeah. But then at some point it became, I'm saying this is worth this. I'm going to take all of your guys' money. It's going to be worth this for a moment. And then it's not going to be worth that instantly overnight. All I've done is I've gone and then sucked in all your money. Yeah. It's true. I've just sucked in all your money. The only money that exists within that coin is stuff that other people who have also had hope have put it in there. And they put it in. Yeah. It comes from somewhere. And that was like what happened to my mom and dad when we were kids.

2:00:48It's the same thing You know It's the same thing So look I'll be honest I have no regrets I would rather not have that money And that sounds high and mighty But I just wouldn't Like I just Ah but also Those things are shortcuts to jail Well No you never know though That's true though I mean like now people are getting pardons And now people are Yeah But those things are all temporary They genuinely are I think they're all temporary It's a shortcut to jail At the end of the day That's like See that's like Because when do you stop? Yeah It's true You put 500 in You make a million Why would you not put in the next 500 ,000 to make 10 million, 100 million.

2:01:20When do you stop? It's true. And then we wonder why these guys get to that point. It's because along the way, there's no need to stop. You don't need to stop. You don't need to stop. You don't need to stop. And then at some point, you're just like, oh, do it. But it exists. The way that it's regulated now exists as a sort of loophole, doesn't it? At this moment in time. Yeah, at this moment in time. It didn't a year ago. Yeah. It's changed. It's now not a security. Crypto is not a security. So it's regulated by Some other regulatory body That has like one guy One guy at a desk It's just the guy who Just vibe checks it now He's just this thing He's like cool Yeah Not cool Puts his finger in the water It's alright So Yeah What would you say Your dream Because Like when I read How people have tried to categorize you People call you a prankster People call you a But I don't know You know I don't want to put too much weight on this I feel like It's sort of evolved in your world And now there's like a mission Behind it in some ways What would you say you're trying To achieve with these films When somebody's watching them What are you hoping to reveal or what are you hoping to change You know Yeah I mean I suppose That it's hard There's definitely a world view isn't there There's definitely and that's as I've Have the privilege of doing this now For nearly 10 years which is fucking nuts like you begin to try take your work more seriously and you understand like okay I know what I can offer and I can see things about the world that I've learned in this weird journey like you know I can look at the Amazon piss thing and be like this is probably possible and I think because of my experience I know that or you know going like that film we've just made about Get Rich Quick and being in those rooms and asking a billionaire to give me a million why not please and uh just like seeing i don't know i suppose So you said the grand omission, kind of distracting myself thinking about it.

2:03:22No, yeah, just like what do you... What is the goal? Is that what you're saying? To try and change people's minds? No, I don't know. I just... I don't know. I think first and foremost, I do just consider myself sort of an artist and a creator of stuff. And I want to make really interesting things that are in conversation with the world. And, you know, humor is a massive part of it for me. I'm trying to be entertaining. I want it to be funny I want it to be but I do also want it to be illuminating and what I will say is when you're working with like Channel 4 which is like a public service broadcaster yeah maybe maybe you've been empathized with this with being on the show like you have a different almost like you take a different set of questions that you ask about an idea while you're coming up with it you're like okay well this is going to be I want to talk about this company Amazon But also I need to justify that I can talk about piss and stuff.

2:04:18So I'm going to evidence worker exploitation. Yes. I'm going to evidence this and I'm going to, but working on projects here now, I'm really excited by looking at like culture here and how that really plugs into the moment that, because I think culture is actually a really great way of talking about all of that stuff. Everything. Everything. if you focus on little pieces of tech like you know i think there's almost like um culture i always think culture is a manifestation of what the society is experiencing yeah it just has to be yeah but and it becomes easier to like why is the clothing popular at the time why yeah what is or isn't popular why is it do you get what i'm saying yeah yeah all of that is just it's like the plant that grows from the soil and then it's sometimes it's hard to know what's happening in the soil but if you look at the plant you can know yeah it is interesting this is the first time in my life i've been an immigrant somewhere that's quite interesting i'm moving here for the first time and being i you know i moved to london and then i moved i moved to new york and uh that is an interesting experience and i suppose that's what i'm propelled by at this moment in time is being the outsider yeah yeah yeah it's a different world yeah and i think that um yeah i'm kind of i feel like i'm making no sense no no i think i'm realizing what you're saying i I think two things that I picked up from here is we're constantly fighting this battle between gatekeeping and democracy.

2:05:44Advertising was one of those. It was a well-regulated and gatekept industry until it was not. Now people are creating their own adverts without safeguards and research and experimentation being done. That's true. I didn't think about that. And the other one is basically what we started with when we were speaking about academia and how they write papers. it's just basically a debate between experimenting as a scientist, which is what we're enjoying now. You do experiments and we get results quicker instead of someone taking five years to write the paper and do research. So now we've circumvented that whole process and actually inverted it because you create the experiment and then we do the research.

2:06:19So you're basically going, here's what, I've experimented. Go ahead and find out if it's true or not. As your lawyer would say, it's very illegal. I think what you are doing is you are setting off a tinderbox for us to start having conversations and doing our own research so we can arrive to a conclusion that we're happy with. Because one thing, if it's popular opinion, but if you came up with that, like we're saying, when you're watching a live, anything on YouTube and the comments are different because it just depends on where you're watching from. And right now, what you've just done is you've given us all a POV and access to just look at it and go, what am I seeing?

2:06:54Yeah. Yeah. Great. I mean, as you were saying that, I think that I was thinking about you watching it when it came out. I mean, wouldn't even think about that the idea that you were watching this restaurant thing i was living watched it and i heard it from youtube yeah right yeah so you never you never oh amazing all right so if it made sense to you hopefully it makes sense oh no it completely makes sense yeah yeah but that's why i say that's what the thing that's what it does yeah i love that you said scientist or experiment or sociologist whatever it is it is finding the right lens or mirror putting it on society and if you show it in the right way i you know i think of one of the most impactful videos it went viral it keeps going viral every few years it's from a long time ago in the u.s though there was a local sort of news channel thing they just did this simple experiment they put a bicycle in central park or one of these parks and it was locked to a pole and then they just sent different people to break the lock and they just wanted to see what happened and they sent like a white guy he's like cutting like cutting it full on like with a sword like very like like hokey i'm breaking a lock not like subtle at all very like bang bang you know what i mean and people would just walk past me like oh okay whatever and then they sent like a white woman people would help help yes be like, yo, hold on, hold on.

2:08:18You're doing that wrong. Hold on, hold on. Let me get that for you. Let me - Man? Yeah, just - Man. And then at some point, someone, to even push it, someone was like, oh, is this your bike? And she was like, no. And they're like - And they just giggled. They were like, all right. Always having a fun Sunday. Yeah. And then they sent black teenagers to go and do it. Yo. Minutes. While they were just standing there, People are like, hey, what are you doing? What are you doing? And they're like, no, my bike, I lost the key. They're like, no, no, I'm calling the cops. No. Then they would even like pull out the key and be like, no, no.

2:08:54They're like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm calling the cops. And that small, it's not a paper. It's not a newspaper article. But the one thing you saw from the people who were watching was they were just like, damn. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the thing that was interesting about, and you said something about this in a conversation we had, is it allowed people to observe it in a non-judgmental way. So it wasn't them saying like, you white guys, look at your privilege. No, you could just use your own language in your own head to see the world and come to your conclusion. And I think that's what you're doing is genuinely, you made me think of, you made me laugh, definitely.

2:09:38But you made me think of restaurants differently. You made me think of reality differently. You made me think of influence differently. I was like, oh, damn, you got to, you know what I mean? But I appreciate it. I'm excited to see what you come up with. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. This was amazing. I love it. Thank you very much. Feckin 'em and find out. That's what he's doing. Feckin 'em and find out. That is going to be, I tell you, on the sign. Feckin 'em and find out. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. My chief one thing in America That's good enough for me And as you leave Fekker They will say, did you?

2:10:09Oh no, no, I did Two miles down He did Oh man, Uber, thanks for joining us Thank you very much It was really great I loved it Enjoy New York Yeah, thank you

2:10:32Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Parduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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