The Real Malala: Jeans, Crushes, & Healing

31:50And these activists are changing policies. They are working on legislations. They are working with local community leaders. They are working directly with girls. And a lot of these activists are young girls themselves. So it's like a phenomenal work. When you visit one project, you just see the impact that these activists are creating. It's truly phenomenal. in Tanzania this summer I went and I saw how one organization, Imsachana Initiative, were addressing the issue of girl safety walking to school because these girls have to walk for like up to 10 miles. I just could not believe the number. I double checked.

32:30I said, are you sure it's 10 miles? They said, yes, that's how long girls have to walk. So they brought in bicycles initiative to help them have a safer and easier and quicker journey to the schools. And it's not just addressing the transport issue, but it's giving them safety as well. It's just incredible work that these activists do. Like you cannot fix these problems from DC or London. It's about us further supporting and strengthening the local activism that is happening. It's through grants. it's through giving them the tools the technical support and being there as their allies like you know that's that's all we need because for a lasting sustainable change we have to strengthen the local communities well i also think we have to see them as people and i that's what i love you know in what you've done in the book is like reminding yourself that you're looking at people oftentimes people think that refugees are refugees because they don't want to be in their country or refugees are refugees because their country sucks or because, and it's like, no, no, no, no.

33:34These are people who want to stay there. Something's pushing them. They have friends, they have rituals, they have ideas. There's like a vibe that you don't want to, there's mangoes. Yes. Do you know what I mean? There's the mangoes. And think about your life right now. Why would you just leave your home? Yeah. Who wants to pack as much as they can and go and start a life in a new country? who wants to walk for days and days, put their lives at risk, and somehow be praying that they find safety somewhere. Nobody wants that. Becoming a refugee is the last resort. It's the last and the only option that people have who have to leave their homes because of the challenging circumstances.

34:22I think we have to show more empathy because this could happen to any of us due to any circumstances, from climate-related events to conflicts and other dangers. We should think about our neighbors. If somebody is in a difficult situation, we should open our doors. And I also shared this story sometimes that when we became displaced in Swat Valley in Pakistan, it was around 2009. It was not that most people were in these like refugee camps. A lot of the people were welcomed by strangers in the neighboring cities. People just opened their doors. They just gave their rooms, their homes, their food, everything.

35:06and in our culture that was like completely normal because hospitality is a part of our culture it's part of the Pashtun hospitality it's a big part of the Pakistani culture so I hope that you know we we promote these good values everywhere actually I hope we do especially because we forget how hard it is to begin a life somewhere else like yes you know you know there's there's the story you tell when when you're packing your bags you know to go to university in Birmingham and this whole period of your life, again, I would have never thought of you like that. You're one of the smartest people I've ever met.

35:44You're one of the most thoughtful human beings I know. You seem to have a broad range of knowledge that just, I mean, it spans everything. And then I'm reading these stories of you having self-doubt and struggling and what was like 41 % in English, I think it was. Yeah, like in every subject almost. But you see, like in my head, I go like, no, Malala has always been a high achiever. And yet here you are stressed about belonging. And probably the funniest one for me was what you packed in your bag. Yes. When you knew you were going to be out of your parents' watch. It was like jeans. Even, okay, this is what I mean.

36:20Cardigans. Yeah. I never want to wear cardigans again. But at the time I was like, I was looking up on Google what is trending. So I searched up Selena Gomez, 2017. Yes. Casual style. Yes, let's do it. Oh, that's amazing. I was like, what is Emma Watson wearing these days? You know, like, what are these cool girls wearing that I want to wear as well? I had no idea because before that, I had never really worn jeans and just more casual Western style clothing. Right. And I was thinking about like, okay, what else is there outside? shalwar kameez that's the only dress my mom wants me to wear because for her I am representing my whole culture yes and my relatives are watching me so we cannot cause any trouble and she should not be taking long phone calls because people are just shocked to see me in a different dress and so I was like I need to figure out a way so I was still following some rules around like okay you know keep the sleeves long and it's it's still like you know a bit baggy and I want to assimilate.

37:29I want to be among these students and I want to be invisible in some ways that nobody can spot me because my Pakistani clothes are very flashy and bright and colorful and embroidered and all of that. So my goal was that when I go to college, nobody's shocked like, oh, that's who she is or, oh, this is very similar to the person we have seen on TV. I want it to look slightly different as well. Malala undercover. That's what I'm hearing. Yes, undercover. TV show, Malala Undercover. A student, a student. Like imagine when you are in college and somebody's like dressed up nicely. No, everybody's just in a hoodie, in a cardigan, in a jumper.

38:09They're, you know, they're wearing leggings or what do you call it in America? I think I'm using a lot of British. No, I think leggings are leggings. I don't wear them, but I think it's leggings. Yeah, I know like I sometimes struggle like trainers, boots. Oh, yeah, yeah, that thing. Yeah, it was just, I don't know. People will figure it out. Let them Google it the way you had to Google the fashions. Be like, what was Manala wearing? Because this is the thing, like people, I mean, the fact that you had to ask people like what fish fingers were. Yeah. They are the same thing that we, in South Africa, fish fingers, it's like a processed type of fish that's then in a, okay, okay.

38:47Yes. Do you like fish fingers? Yes. But, you know, for me, it was like the name. If you think about it, fish fingers, what? Okay. What did you think it was? because I've actually asked people this question and there's one of two. Some people go, these are the fingers of fish, but fish don't have fingers. So it's referring to a part of the fish that could be a finger or it's pieces of fish that are shaped like fingers. Which one did you think when you heard fish fingers? The farmer. The first one. So you thought it was like a part of a fish? Yeah. I was like, there's many species, who knows? You know, there could be a fish out there.

39:22There could be like a British fish. Hello. Exactly. Like, do we know all the fish? No, we don't. There's the one with the light bulbs. I mean, there could be one with the fingers. Exactly. I mean, that makes sense. Yes. But then, yeah, eventually my mom also found out what clothes I had taken. Oh. When she, so basically, you know, I went for rowing. Yeah. And I wore my jeans and a green bomber jacket. Yeah, you went for, we got to talk about that. You went for everything. But let's talk about the rowing, yeah. Yeah, and then I came back. I thought it was like a fun day, but I realized I'm never going to do rowing again.

39:56Firstly, because you have to get up at 5 a.m. Yes. And secondly, you should know how to swim. And I couldn't swim. So I was like, okay, good experience, but it's done. But that evening, I got a call from my parents saying that, why were you wearing jeans? And you have caused so much trouble. And there's a whole social media backlash. And I looked at my phone and there was a whole backlash going on against me wearing jeans. Who took the picture? Who was the snitch? Some stranger. You know, snitches, man. It's just always... Like, I was very careful in university in the beginning. I did not want to go to the clubs and did not want to dance.

40:36I was very careful. And because I thought, like, there could be a photo that could be taken out of context and people might create a whole controversy, like a cultural one that, you know, you're not modest enough, you're not Islamic enough, you're not Pashtun or Pakistani enough, whatever identity they want to pick on. and I will cause trouble. So I skipped things. You know, I was trying to be, you know, an obedient daughter, but in the end, it was just simply jeans that were criticized. And I was like, if people are criticizing my jeans, I think I'm going to change my approach. I'm just going to continue wearing jeans.

41:14I'm not going to defend it and I'm going to move on. Because I remember my parents were telling me that, So what are we going to do now? Should we issue a statement? I was like, statement about what? Like saying what? I will never wear jeans again? Or I wore them because? I said, there's none of that. It must have been isolating as well. So here's the thing that's happening in this moment, right? As I'm thinking of the story, you're in a world where you've left one world where there are norms, and we all have those. And then you move into another world where there are new norms. if you hold on to all of those the previous ones you'll never fit in you'll never belong you'll always be isolated if you if you hold on to all of the new ones then you become isolated and you don't belong in in where you're from so you it's basically this tug and tug of war between where you were and where you are and i was also noticing that in the trolling or the backlash i was receiving yeah there were some people who were saying that why am I wearing a headscarf and they were criticizing that I was not fully independent and because I was still wearing wow yeah now you're stuck between like all different worlds for everybody it was all about am I representing my my cultural culture fully for some it was like well you have um given up to the patriarchal culture or you are you have lost your autonomy me and that's why you're dressing that way.

42:47And I was like, it's none of that. It's just, these things are a part of me. And sometimes I want to wear something. Sometimes I don't, I don't even think about who I'm representing. I just want to feel comfortable in what I wear. And who knows, I might change my sense of fashion with time, but it's just a scrutiny that you face and that you are constantly being watched and criticized. And one thing which I told my dad when he was arguing with me was that, why is it always about my clothes that is a topic of discussion? My brothers immediately switched to jeans and tops. Not a problem. No calls from our relatives.

43:30I like how you just dragged them into it. Your brothers were safe and you were like, what about, that is the classic sibling move. What about my brothers? it is true also like i'm really scared of my mom so it's really hard to argue with her because you will never win so somehow you have to just come to an agreement where she respects your decision somehow but you can never say that i was right you can never say that but with my dad i am like a debater i argue with him i was like dad have you ever pointed a finger at your two sons and what they wear. And he stopped for a second and said, yes, I think you're right.

44:14Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, he is an amazing father, an amazing man, an amazing husband. For me, of course, like I was so grateful that he was a great father and he always tells this story that don't ask me what I did, but ask me what I did not do for my daughter. And that is, I did not clip her wings. Amazing father. But I think what made a greater impact or what made like an even bigger difference on me was how he was treating my mom, how he was a great husband as well. And that influenced me a lot in how I had like very high expectations for the person who was going to be my life partner, even though I had a lot of like questions about if I'll find one and do I deserve one?

45:02Yeah. Is he the right one? But the one thing I was sure of was that I needed, that I know how I should be treated because I saw how my dad was treating my mom. So I think, you know, our dads can also be role models for us for how they can be like good husbands and also like better parents to the sons in the family. No, definitely. I agree with that. And how they treat others. So wait, wait. So what about your brothers? Do they have like the flip relationship? because a lot of the time that'll be the case. It's like the girls will have an easier time with their dad and then the boys will have an easier time with their mom.

45:36We have a typical family. Oh, so it is. It's exactly that. Three siblings, I'm the oldest daughter and then two younger brothers. The middle one is also following the stereotype. It's just like such a stereotypical house. You're so normal, Malala. So normal. I know. All the memes and reels you guys see are like so relevant. Send them across. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now? after this. Law transforms agreement into reality. A word becomes an agreement. An agreement becomes a contract. A contract becomes law. Today, Harvey, the AI platform for legal work, is writing the next chapter.

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47:09As we move through your life, I loved how you, it's like you found joy in like the small things. But like really, not in like a saintly way, not in a pious way. you know like your your dorm um i think it was in oxford not like i opened a book and i smelled the pages no no no no not like that not like that not pretentious more like i closed the book it's exactly and you're just like yeah and i was like oh i was smelling what my friends were having and i was like hmm what's that and i was like oh what are these new things and you know what are these people doing i want to talk to you about your first friend because it's it it seems like one of the most important relationships in your life and your first friend, I should say, in your new life because you had your friends from home.

47:55You've got your school friends. You've got your childhood friends. But you make this new friend who I feel like we are partially, we should all be grateful to her as well because she just gave you normal. You know? Which one? Oh, I think it was Cora maybe. Yeah, the first one, right? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yes. So she was my height. And when I was walking around on the college open day, just trying to like figure out who to say hello to, I saw her and I, you know, was giving myself this confidence that don't be shy, say hello. It's like, hi, I'm Malala. What's your name? Hi, I'm Cora. I'm, you know, it's like, what are you studying?

48:38Studying PPE. I was like, same, I'm also studying PPE. Wait, what is PPE? Philosophy, politics and economics. Oh, okay. Philosophy, politics and economics. Okay, PPE. Got it. yes i didn't go to university i don't know any of these things sorry where do you live and why did you decide on this college you just start a conversation and so you know we became friends but i thought she might ask me about my past and and she might have these like you know strange questions that i'm oftentimes asked she asked none of that never never in my life all of the friends I made in university they never immediately asked about my profile and like you know what they had seen on the news or um and there were some people other people who were asking me things like so what was what was it like meeting this person or that person and what did you say to Obama it's like I did not write the minutes uh what was it like meeting Emma Watson they were like can we meet her and I said like no just because I have met somebody once doesn't mean I have their phone number and I can call them right now nobody understands this I'm so glad you're saying this right now nobody understands they see you meet someone once yes they think you're now best friends they think you have their phone number they think you can like organize something with them have you had it where people ask you to pass something on yes yeah I've got that can you ask them to record a video message for me yes it's my birthday yes I will send this to Barack Obama.

50:10I have his number and I'll ask him to send them. It's so wild. But what it feels like they were giving you was, it feels like they were allowing you to write your story from scratch in that moment. Yeah. So the people who became my friends for life were asking me about my assignment, how I was coping with the essay crisis. Did I need help with the questions? and what party was happening that evening, who was up to what, who was dating who. And I was quite helpful in giving relationship advice. So they were bringing up all of their problems to me. A lot of them were just problems. And I was like, yeah, this guy is sort of signaling to you very clearly that he does not want to talk to you.

50:58If he's taking three days to reply, you know so so you were that friend in the crew you were like the relationship expert friend yeah because at the time i thought you know i'm i'm just this observer okay i can see from the outside i'm like i'm like the coach they were like how do you know it i said you know like coaches are never on the field you know they don't they're not the players but they know what what is happening right they're watching the game they're watching the game sometimes you have the best perspective because you're watching the game exactly so i were i was fixing all of their problems i i knew who was putting too much effort and who needed to put a bit more effort and who needed to move on from their school boyfriend and realize that they were changing as a person as well they could not be stuck in the past oh that feels a little bit like it cut it like it it went you know like one of you know sometimes you give advice and then it goes close to home yes you You know, like, were you ever experiencing any of that in giving the advice, realizing there's parts of you that you had from home that you were trying to hold on to that you now had to let go of, but still hold on to the parts of yourself you wanted to keep?

52:03I didn't understand that question. No, so what I mean is, so you, in this moment, you're giving this advice to your friends. And what you said was really poignant. You said, I was, there's one friend where you noticed that she was holding on to a boyfriend from the past and an idea of herself. And you're like, hey, now it's time for you to move on. Yes. And I wonder if that cut close to home for you, because you were also in a position where you had this older version of yourself. You're now in the present and you're facing this uncertain future. Did you also feel like for yourself, you have to figure out what you're willing to let go of and change and move towards?

52:38I think it was a process. Yeah. And it's still happening. there are parts of me that I suddenly realized that I'm letting go off it's it's really hard there are still things that I want to be a part of me forever but it's it's really a process I think in college for me the most important thing was just being that jolly student that I once was in Pakistan and to know that this could be my safe space where I feel like nobody's watching me. Yeah. And I could be myself. I don't know what I am. I don't know what I enjoy and what I love, but I just want to allow myself to experience all of these things because nobody's watching.

53:33and that was the best time. Climbing the rooftops, skipping assignments, watching the sunrise in the morning, chatting with friends for hours and hours and hours, going for grocery shopping and skipping lectures. I feel like I'm just mentioning all the bad things. Also, sometimes doing your assignments and sometimes working hard. the other thing was asking for help when you need help with your academic performance like you know some of us are are hesitant because we feel like are we the only ones who need it but when I found out about the student support I realized okay you know this might be the only hope for me now because of how I had struggled with my studies for a very long time in college that when I went there to that room, I realized that I wasn't the only one there.

54:33There were like other students walking out of that study room. And I was like, oh, like, so I'm not the only one. And there's like some of my friends who are also getting this support. So I changed my approach. I said, okay, I'll always make sure that I ask for help. But that's like a normal college life, right? Sort of. and and that's yeah but that's that's i think that's what makes it so powerful is

55:04We forget how much all of us in life will always yearn for the thing we don't have. And in a perfect world, everyone will have enough of what they need. Whether it's good or even friction could be bad. Just have enough of what you need. And so I do like that you're talking about the rooftops and the late nights and talking to the friend. Because it feels like in this moment in time, that's what you needed. Yeah. And I knew that I would be in college just for three years. I did not know what was happening after that, that I said, this is the only time maybe that I'll have such fun and I could be myself.

55:43And yeah, I was like, all the surveillance cameras are not there. I'm in my safe space. And college was, of course, like a really exciting and fun time. But it was also a difficult time at this because, you know, I had some experiences where it was the first time that I had a panic attack, like a big panic attack when I was with some of my friends and was struggling with my assignments. So one friend invited me to hang out with them outside in the gardens. And I joined them. It was still late at night. But I said, you know, like, this is so normal for me. I'll finish my essay by the morning. And we were just chatting and they were trying bong.

56:33I had never seen bong. Like a bong? Yeah, like a bong. That thing? Yeah. Okay. Exactly that. Anyway, I was like, oh, what is this? And they were like, you know, just like related to weed, all of that. I was like, oh yeah, like that's not that serious. So they were like, you know, you have to try it. So I took one puff. I coughed. It just was like, oh, you know, what is this? Then they were like, no, no, just, you know, try one more time. I was like, okay, tried it again. And I felt like I inhaled it and suddenly just went inside. And I don't know where time went, but this time I, like, I lost, I disconnected from reality.

57:20and I felt like I was just like I thought I was dead again I thought I had been attacked and I thought even though I don't remember anything about the incident I thought it was all happening in repeat and time slowed down I could not feel my body anymore and my friend suddenly realized what was happening. So she held me and I was holding her hand tight. She somehow took me to her room. And I don't know how I survived that night, but I could not sleep because as soon as I would try to close my eyes, I thought this was the end of it. I would not be able to wake up. I thought like I was somehow like losing life.

58:07And it felt like it was, again, that whole time of the attack where I was in induced coma and I wanted to get up, but I could not. I wanted to feel like I was awake. I needed to know that I was alive and I just could not. Yeah. But then, you know, the next day I knew that my body had changed forever. I just felt like I could not be the same person anymore. I became anemic and then I, you know, called for a friend and she she helped me then at the time I just could not explain to my friends what was happening I didn't even know if it was normal or not I did not even know if it was a panic attack or not yeah because it's so jarring it's it was just I was like oh maybe it's just about me because of what I had experienced that it was not something that other people have also experienced in in in their own way.

59:05But I think it was really the friends who helped me in that difficult time. Something like a sleepover. They just came to my room and they said, you don't have to tell us anything. We're going to just sleep with you tonight in your room. They brought their mattresses. Yeah. But then eventually one other friend of mine, she said, you need to see a therapist. That was the first time. It was months later. I thought I could... Wait, this was the first time you'd ever gone to a therapist? Yes. So in Birmingham, I was receiving all of these medical treatments. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From like facial symmetry to like nerve surgery to the hearing implant and all of these things were happening.

59:49And then there was a therapist as well. And she was the only person in that whole hospital that I did not like. Oh, wow. I thought she was asking me too many questions and I just want to like recover. I just want to be able to get up. Why is she asking me about how am I feeling? I said, what's there to talk about feelings right now? That many years later, I did not know if therapy would be helpful at all. And then my friend said, no, like, she said, like, she goes to see a therapist. She said, and I was like, but you are, she's like, that's not the point. We can talk about different issues. You don't know who it's affecting.

1:00:32And then I realized that so many people were actually seeing therapists. So that was the first time I saw a therapist many, many years later. And it was because of these panic attacks that I realized I have to go and see a therapist. Because in then I felt like I just could not do it. I just could not. when you when you share that it um it reminds me of a conversation we actually had on the podcast with um a neuroscientist who specializes in trauma and she taught us something that i'd never known before which was people who have experienced like an acute trauma part of their ptsd is their cortisol levels change like the normal the baseline yeah and where most times in society, I think this was discovered around the 1980s with veterans of the Vietnam War.

1:01:28It's that people had sort of depleted their cortisol. And so something could inflame it, something could trigger it, something could bring it back. And the most important thing she said about the trauma and just how we talk about these things is we often assume people should be willing to share their stories when we are willing to hear them. But the real thing that unlocks it is them meeting a person at the right time who says the right thing. Often it's a person who's experienced something similar. You find you share a different bond, a different connection, a different way of speaking about it even that's less sanitized than, you know, sometimes like a strict therapist-patient relationship.

1:02:08So it's amazing that you experienced that on the ground. Did you find that the therapy helped? The therapy helped a lot. And I fully agree with you. I could not explain it to my parents. I could not explain it to anybody else. I could talk a bit about it to my friends. And I think they recognized that I needed them around me. And then they also realized that maybe you also need to see a therapist. The therapist was very helpful. To be honest, in the first session, I thought, I'll explain everything and just throw everything at them. And then they'll tell me what's wrong with me and give me some medication.

1:02:45and then I'll be fine. Yes, exactly. I was like, fix the problem. Figure it out and fix the problem. And she was just nodding. I kept talking and she was just nodding. And I was like, where is this going to go? It is, yeah, the first therapy session is always a strange one. Yeah, they keep asking you questions and you're like, let me explain it back to you. But I was like, what's, you know. And then I had a few more sessions with her. I would like write down what I was experiencing and there were like some good times and I felt normal and then there were times when like you know my body was sweating and you know I could hear my heartbeat and I was panicking and like small things could trigger me or just like make me somehow feel like like I had lost.

1:03:34It's really hard to explain these things you know. No I think I understand it. I think of like when I've had to deal in therapy with you know my mom who was shot so my mom was shot in the head by my stepfather and even though I wasn't there I have images you know because my brothers told me the stories and my mom you know when I got to the hospital and she was being wheeled into ICU the image that I have of her is still in my head and one of the hardest things to try and explain to people is how your mind is like a carousel. You can't reliably retrieve the memory the way you want to. It's spinning.

1:04:17Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's there. And then sometimes the light hits it in such a way that it really shines at you in the most harsh way. And that's when you'll feel a lot of the time what you're not able to feel. You know, like what you said in the beginning about conversation, many times we can tell the story. And sometimes I feel like that's when the carousel as far and you just tell it and then sometimes you feel the story and you know it might be triggered by something random and I've learned that's where like therapy especially good therapy starts to help you bridge those gaps you know you start to bridge the gaps between where you were what you were feeling who you are and what you're feeling and and then merging those two worlds into one.

1:04:59I 100 % agree with you because you know I would not have been able to say anything about it a few years ago. And, you know, with the help of therapy, and just how my life took a different trajectory. It was not just the incident and the panic attack, but it was many other things like the decision to marry or not, and what my life would look like after I graduate. And I graduated in the pandemic. So it was just a lot of things that were happening that were quite overwhelming. And then I was also worried about my grades, if I would actually graduate or not, because, you know, I had been skipping a lot of those essays and assignments.

1:05:36So I was, by the end of the university time, I was quite nervous, overwhelmed. And at the time, I just did not even know if I could ever even share it. But when I look back and how I have found my way out and I have learned so much from it, I wanted to write this book. I wanted to share this story with other people so that it could help somebody out there. And it's not just about asking for help, but also being there for people who need help. Yeah, and I think it's important for us to reclaim it as well. One of the things I realized in therapy was a lot of the way we think of therapy now is shaped by the West.

1:06:26And they'll go therapist and therapy. And if you come from South Africa, maybe I'm assuming Pakistan, wherever you're from in the world, a lot of people will say, oh, that's not in my culture. Oh, we don't do that. We don't do it. But as I've taken time to learn about different cultures, I've come to realize every single culture, if you look back, you know, either it was erased during colonial times or it's been forgotten, you know. I remember being in Machu Picchu and learning from historians that they had therapy. Just not the way we think of it now. But every culture has elders. And every culture will tell you about which elders were supposed to do what.

1:07:02And some would even specialize. You know, there'd be, these are the people you're going to talk to just about being a mother. And they'll help you to be a mother. And they'll help you with postpartum depression, whatever it may be. These people will tell you about relationships. This person, and now it's become commercialized, unfortunately. Unfortunately, I guess in some ways. But there's an element of reclaiming it that I think is very important. You know, because then again, I find people can go, oh, you westernized now. Oh, what is this therapy thing you're talking about? That's not our, and it's like, no, no, it is our people actually.

1:07:32Talking to somebody who can shed perspective and wisdom is exactly part of our cultures. I do wonder if it's just for people who are in the public eye, who face this pressure that they somehow have to pretend that they're living a perfect life and they are not as open about what they actually feel, what's going on in their mind, that somehow we cannot make a mistake. We cannot just let a thought come out or just say something out loud. Because when I think about the culture in our village in Pakistan, to me, like everybody's just being themselves. Nobody cares what you think and how offended you will be.

1:08:17Everybody will tell you how they feel. I have noticed that about my mom as well. She will show it to you, not just say it to you. Moms do that. Yes. And my dad, you know, out of respect, he's like very passionate about expressing what he thinks should be done and what he thinks is right. And I realized that, you know, like it's not the same for me, at least, that I keep everything to myself. And I do wonder if this is because I was so exposed to media and this outside world watching me, even when I was 11 years old. Yeah. And I was blogging, I was becoming an activist. I was seen as this kid in school who is giving speeches and she's a bit smart.

1:09:02So I feel like everybody was watching me, even though there was no camera or nothing. And that's how I have lived my whole life. That sometimes I feel that I wish there was just less scrutiny and less surveillance. and that we allowed ourselves to express our opinions, our thoughts more openly. Yeah. Because as you were saying, like that's how therapy should technically be because you say something in front of your friend and your friend is like, well, like, you know, it didn't sound right. Let me explain it to you. Or like, but have you thought about this thing? Or I fully agree with you. It never occurred to me.

1:09:41Wow, I'm hearing this for the first time. It could work either ways. and I wonder if it's affecting more people out there. I think it is. Because of social media, because of how these things work now that everybody has a TikTok and Instagram profile. No, no, I genuinely think it is. I think it is. I think it's a combination of two things and maybe there's more that I'm missing. But the more I've thought about it, and to your point, sharing a spotlight, I've seen every variation of it. People having a spotless image of you, people having a terrible image of you. I think it's two things that people are experiencing on multiple levels, depending on how prominent you are.

1:10:24The one is we have more access to each other than we've ever had in the history of the world. But at the same time, we have less context than we've ever had for each other in the world. And I think that's a terrible combination of things. you know i think to myself one of the one of the natural beautiful occurrences in in the world is how accents and languages evolve and i think that's i i speak multiple languages i love accents the reason i love them is because they tell you a story they tell you how people moved and it's amazing how you can track an accent that starts in one part of the world and if you move far enough and slowly enough you see that the accent is still exactly the same yeah which which always blew my mind it's like oh no an english accent is a jamaican accent is an indian accent is like it's depending on which way the journey went it's just the gradual change that started to soften it and it provides it context and i think without context we lose everything yeah like your friends hold your context so a friend can say that's not you yes you know that's not you at your saddest that's not you at your angriest that's not you with you know whatever it is that's not you in your fullest and a friend can give you grace a friend can give you compassion a friend can it's because the person trusts you in your whole and so they notice the anomalies which we all have judge you they don't judge you that's the big thing i love that they're not canceling you yeah no no no but i but i think it's but i think it's because they're there for you regardless to be fair to society yes it's because they don't have any context yeah i've literally had people come up to me i wonder if you've had the same experience i've had people come up to me and they've said Often at a live event, you know, one man, I was on the road.

1:12:07I was in a place called Springfield, Missouri. And everyone told me, oh, that's Trump country. That's all right. I wonder what it's going to be like. And I did a show there. Had an amazing time, really amazing time. And after the show, I was in the town and I was walking around. And this man came up to me and he said, I was sitting like at a little diner at a booth. And he came up and he's like, hey, can I just let you know, my son brought me to your show. And I didn't like you. I didn't like you, but I had a good time at your show and you're a lot different than I thought you were. Thank you.

1:12:38And I said, thank you very much. I said, if I may ask, why didn't you like me? He says, well, I saw a few clips of yours on Facebook and I didn't like what I saw. But, you know, when I came to your show, I was like, wow, you know, I agree with that and I like that. And maybe I don't think that, but he saw more because I was able to be there with him in person like this. You know, it's bridging this gap. I think that's important. Yeah, I think people on social media are oftentimes talking about a conversation about you. Yes. You are never there. They're like, we think this person said this. And we are so sure that this person meant this.

1:13:14Yes. We're not going to look at the context. No, no, no. It's a flattening. It's a complete, complete flattening. That has happened to me a few times. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think it's changing, though, to be honest with you. So I think I give most of the credits to Gen Z and then I guess Alpha in that because they grew up in such surveillance, to borrow your word, they grew up in a world where they were being watched. If you look at the difference in their social media versus millennial social media, millennial social media was all about the filter, make it look good and make it this and make it perfect.

1:13:50And then you look at what Gen Z and Alpha did. They went, no, it's vibes. I'm going to take a blurry picture. I'm going to take a messy shot. I'm going to write whatever I'm feeling. Then I'll delete it. You know what? This isn't my tombstone. This isn't how I want to be perceived forever. And even that shift, I think, has brought a little, just a little more parity or a little more balance, I think, into the way we see it. I think it'll always be there. But we're moving, you know? We'll see. If they say that about you, you must call me and then I'll fight for you. I like fighting people online.

1:14:21Oh, I love that. I really do. You know why? Because I also realized at some point, most of it is not real. That was the hardest thing, is most of it is not real. Most of the hate that people are experiencing of each other is not real. And that's why even when I've met politicians, I'll often say to them, more in the US than anywhere else where I've gotten to meet them, is I go, I wish you would spend more time in public getting along. Forget the law. Yeah. But I wish your constituents knew that you have lunches together, that you have dinners together, that you go to each other's birthday parties, because they don't treat each other the way you do.

1:15:03Yes. You know? So true. And so if you could show them that side of your lives, maybe they would be able to see that side of their lives with each other. And then, not that it would, it doesn't become like utopia, but you know? Yeah. in my interactions with real people i have like rarely come across um an experience where i felt a person was disrespectful or they um you know were sounding like a troll like yeah yeah that it doesn't happen so from the very start i knew that i cannot assume that what i see on social media is reflective of the world out there for whatever reason i'm like it could be the same person but I know they won't treat me the same way if they meet me in person so I think you know we need to I feel like this connection more in the real world is is important meeting each other seeing each other because it makes us feel more human and it's not like these fixed objects that we see on social media and we have such a fixed opinion about them and yeah the world of social media is crazy.

1:16:12Just six months before my marriage, I had an interview with British Vogue, which was released because, you know, I was like on the cover and everything. And the journalist had asked me many questions about what I was thinking I had about life. And at that time, I had no plans. And I was still in COVID time, a recent graduate, figuring out if I wanted to get married or not, because I had like a billion questions about marriage as an institution and all of that. So in the interview, somehow I said, oh, like, why do we have to get married? Why can't it just be like a partnership and just two people living together?

1:16:46Why is this like this complicated concept of marriage? And when that piece came out, there was this huge backlash that people eventually were saying that Malala is against marriage. And then they said nikah. So and it's called the religious Islamic ceremony. Oh, wow. They made it so specific that Malala is advocating against this religious practice, which is so important for us, for Muslims, for Pakistanis. And when you look back at the whole interview, you don't see it. It's not that I have said that I'm against it. I think nobody should be doing that. There's none of that. But nobody was, the people who were making that claim were not going to the article.

1:17:38No, no, no, they don't. And you realize that, you know, these are narratives that, you know, one person ignites it, they creates that spark. And then everybody else is like, this is a wonderful opportunity. We had been looking for it. Like, let's distribute it. Let's share it. So there is a bit of that danger with social media because by the time you explain yourself, it's too late. It's gone. so I remember again like my mom and dad were disappointed with me first the genes and now this now this they're like can you just and my mom actually said my mom was like I wish you had never spoken and it it broke my heart I was really sad but it also made me angry that why do I have to somehow sound all perfect if I repeat my lines I might clarify it a bit yeah but it you know why can't I be a normal 23-year-old who is just confused about marriage?

1:18:34Why can't I question it? I can't just pretend like I have figured out everything and I have all the answers. And if I'm suddenly put on the spot and asked about marriage, of course I'm going to say, marriage? What? Who's getting married? Me? Why do you have to get married? That's exactly how I felt. I thought she caught me red-handed. Yeah, she threw a curveball at you in that moment. But after that interview was out, I was still thinking about Asar, who's now my husband. And I was, you know, like there were many moments in which I realized how he was the right person and the perfect person for me.

1:19:10That's beautiful. Because in that moment, he was so calm. He actually explained it to my parents why they should not push me to release a statement in defense. He talked to them. Wow. And when we spent some time together, I realized that we actually have the best time. all these questions I have about marriage and, you know, this being an institution historically that has oppressed women and it's patriarchal and, you know, women make more compromises when they make this decision, like how much do they lose on the way in terms of their career and how maternity affects them? Or like, you know, is this guy going to turn out to be a good guy after we get married?

1:19:51And I spent some time with him and I knew he was the right one. But when I think back, I do not regret it for a second that I had a billion questions about marriage and I took my time and I asked him all those silly questions as much as I could because this is a reality that women and girls go through. And I had like everything. I had a platform, a career. I could make money. You know, why was I so scared of it? I was an advocate for girls' rights. Like, I knew my rights. I knew women's rights. And now here you were. And somehow I was scared. I felt like I was going to lose something. Wow. Lose something.

1:20:33And, you know, when I got married, I realized, wow, like, it feels quite normal. Like, I'm still the same person. Nothing has changed. Or like, you know, something like, I'm like, I'm watching you. You know, you're my husband, but we're just friends. I still joke with him. mom like, you know, it's just we're husband and wife to the world outside, but we're just friends. Just kidding. No, but I love that. We are. We are. We are best friends. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. Law transforms agreement into reality. A word becomes an agreement. An agreement becomes a contract.

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1:22:11so so this is what i what i enjoy is you know you even talk about this and and it's it's it's beautiful to read is the it's like it's like the nitty-gritty it's it's the non-airbrushed it's the it's the human you know it's just the human that we all are no one i think most people wouldn't think of like malala having a crush most people wouldn't think of malala being insecure or wondering about what love is or what love isn't like people wouldn't have these things i've experienced like in different ways because everyone paints a picture of you when they paint a picture i remember telling someone once oh yeah and i i didn't have anyone who would go to prom with me in in south africa it was the matric dance people were like oh you're lying you just say i was like oh you have an image of me in this moment in time yeah you weren't with me for any of the insecurities or the journeys that I've been on.

1:23:05I had a question for you. Oh, yeah. Shoot. Did you ever speak to Zaheera? Again? Like recently? No. Like never? No. Did it ever feel like you should? So it's a tough one. Like, do you know where she is? No, I don't. I don't. I remember when I was towards the end of high school, a friend said that her family had moved to the US and something. You know, this is a complicated thing that I love grappling with in life. Yeah. Is that there's a difference between the feeling and the reality, right? Oftentimes in life, we are chasing the feeling of something. And because the story has been told to us, we assume that that feeling exists within a reality.

1:24:00so just to give people perspective i mean you know it but in high school i was an absolute proud loser i was a nerd i spent more time with my computer and my video games than with people but i i got along and i got you know there were people that i've made friends with in school but i and and i was very lucky that you know later on like brian became like my best friend and i but i had a very small tight-knit group and one of the people who was really nice to me was a girl named Zahira, right? So Zahira and her friend Joanna, right? They were really, really nice to me. And Zahira was one of the most beautiful, beautiful girls in school.

1:24:36I read it in your book. Yeah, I just, I mean, it was true. But what made her more beautiful was her kindness, her vibe. She was nice. Some people, male and female, only smiled at the popular kids, you know? She smiled at everyone. She got along with everyone. And she talked to me and I remember being like, wow, this is the most amazing thing. And I always thought to myself, I would love to ask her to be my girlfriend, which was a crazy, I'd never had a girlfriend. It was this terrifying thought. And then, as I say in the book, I never did. And then one day she just didn't come to school. Her parents had left the country and that was it.

1:25:21There's no social media in that way. Now, the thing that I hold on to is, A, the lesson, as I shared. It was one of the moments in life where I went, try to avoid regret. Regret is an unanswered question. You'll always wonder, what if, what if, what if. Rejection is a bruise. You'll feel it. I'm not going to lie to anybody. You'll feel rejection. There's nothing worse than the unrequited love or the friend that didn't. you know whatever it is but the the regret is the what if it's the it's the infinite what if so that's the first thing the second thing i hold on to is the idea and that is like why would i contact the person i would contact them because i have an idea in my head that that person holds this piece of a happiness that maybe i will attain if i find them again except yes but i then realize even in this moment in time I have the happiness because I'm experiencing it I just think it's going to be there and so the analogy I use with my friends often is I go why is it that all boys grow up wanting a Ferrari but they've never been in one like genuinely you know and not to not to reduce a person to a vehicle but I just think of like the images and it's a simple one boys grow into men who dream of a Ferrari why you've never been in one you've never owned one you've never i want a ferrari i want a ferrari it's like why oh because then i'll because then i'll watch and over time if you're lucky enough either you do experience it it's it is or it isn't what you thought but even without it you you can realize you've never been in it and yet you truly believe that it's going to make you happy and if you envision yourself in it you even become happy then it's not the ferrari you want it's the idea of the ferrari that makes you happy and if you can try pursue that feeling you can find it in your friends putting their mattresses in your dorm room anywhere you you truly and i know sometimes people like oh that sounds like but i i won't lie to to your to your stories of like running on rooftops and going shopping and late night conversations that's the thing that i think we need to hold on to more is the idea and the understanding of the feeling that's behind the idea not just the idea itself so no i never I never reached out I never did but I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad you you know I'm glad you didn't regret like you pursued love you you stepped out I pursued love but you know Asar was not my first love I had a crush before Asar and this was before I had met Asar so you know just to disclose no clipping internet exactly don't worry it's in full no clipping but it was a similar thing that But this guy, Tariq, was this mysterious boy in college.

1:28:15Yeah. And there was not much that I knew about him, but I knew he was cool because there were secrets about him. And he was that guy who gets in trouble. And somehow I thought maybe I could fix him. Oh, wow. So I would ask him questions like, why are you upset? Then he would complain about the essays and the tutors. And I said, why is nobody helping you? I think we have to talk to your tutors. Let me bring this up to the principal. And he said, nah, man, it's just, you know, it's just. Bad boy, Tariq. Bad boy. And yeah, like he would just come to my room and eat bananas and any snacks and then leave.

1:29:01but for me I knew that I could not be with Tariq. Tariq was just an idea. It was that feeling. Yeah. And I was never even going to become real. And I did not even know why I was chasing him because at the time I didn't want to get married or I didn't want to have a boyfriend or any of that. Was that because... Just culture. I was still new in college. Right, right. It was so overwhelming. like I was still fighting for my right to wear jeans. I was not going to think about a guy. And with Tarek, I knew it was like this, but there's something about him that I'm somehow chasing him. And in the end, he disappears from college because he's that boy who gets in trouble and he's that bad boy somehow.

1:29:50But I just love that I had that experience where I felt like I was a part of something. I did not really cross the line but I was in it I don't know somehow it just was my first love experience that was truly one-sided we all need those I feel like at some point it was just this idea I was trying to like feel it and yeah it was just from a distance it was all in imagination and sometimes I feel like it was a dream and then I meet Asar who you know I'm like wow he's also handsome let's consider him that's beautiful I love that you say it's like a dream and it's an imagination but I think that's what it is it's a powerful imagination and the older I've gotten the more I've realized it's an imagination that we have of ourselves that's one of the most complicated things to learn about love in those moments or the idea that we have of the love is that that person is either seeing us or allowing us to feel seen in a way that we haven't before or in a way that we feel good or feel comfortable.

1:31:01And there's something beautiful in that. Do you know what I mean? It's just like you're imagining yourself. Because again, to your point, it hasn't happened. I wanted to be the main character. I thought it was a movie. And I had watched so many Indian movies and TV dramas that for me was that moment that there's this mysterious guy. It's a typical story who's not looking at you, but he is the one because he's not looking at you. This is so amazing. And he's good looking and all of that. But, you know, I don't want to use rude words, but, you know, A-S-S-H-O-L-E. Oh, asshole. I'll say it for you.

1:31:38Okay, thank you. I can be a rude word sayer. Thank you. Yeah, sort of like that guy. Whenever you need to say that word, you just call me and I'll pop up there and be like, asshole. So, you know, at the time, I did not know if I would be loved by somebody. I could not love myself either. But that was just the first time that I was feeling something where I thought, maybe in imagination, there are no rules. And it's okay for me to have a crush on this guy and to be curious about his life and sort of follow him around, check on him. Does he need any help? Get him biscuits and tea and whatever he needs.

1:32:18But he did not want my help, to be honest, other than the food. He was a boy who was just always in trouble and then he disappeared. When you thought of yourself in love or being loved, was it ever difficult to bridge the gap between who you saw yourself as and who everyone else thought you were? Like how do you love a saint? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I think I wanted that person to not see me as a saint. I wanted that person to see me for who I was. And Asar, from the start, never received me as the Malala or as the girl he had heard about somewhere. He never even asked me a single question.

1:33:15I think even to this day, like we never talk about what happened and what was life like in Swat Valley. And, you know, he read my book, I think, around the wedding time or after that, just to catch up on the story. I feel like he thought my dad might ask him questions. So, you know, for him, it just didn't matter. For him, he saw the Malala that was in front of him and she was growing. She was learning. She was still asking questions and she was still figuring things out. Like he accepted me for who I was and who I was becoming. That was really life-changing because even now I don't feel like I have to be this like fixed version of me.

1:34:04We're just so open with each other. We giggle, we laugh. I can be so silly with him. I'm truly like myself. I don't think twice when I say something in front of him. That's the best thing. It's not about like, oh, am I hurting your feelings or something? And you're not hurting your feelings. Like somehow you just, you know how to look after each other, how to keep each other happy. And even like, and because he's just like so amazing that sometimes even if I am like upset about something, it's just so minute. But for him, he cannot see me upset. so he will take it very seriously he'll just like stop everything and he said let's resolve the issue and I'm like no it's fine it's not a big deal no nothing is going on no I'm fine we'll you know just talk about it later and he's like no tell me what happened and I think one time I told him that when he drinks his like protein shake yeah he sort of leaves the glass and then I pick it up and I rinse it so I was like this is a big deal why do I have to rinse your glass and I was like patriarchy man all of these things I was like I'm advocating for girls rights I do not want to be an advocate at home you know imagine like you're fighting a battle and then suddenly you're like I have to fix the guy at home too so I was like no nothing and then I was like well you know my mom was here as well and like I just felt so much pressure and I thought like it's not that it was just us too I felt like people were watching us as well and I thought they were judging us like and he was like oh you know it's like but we split work like you know you do the dishwasher but I do the the clothes washing and I do the laundry and all of that and I was like yeah you kind of do a lot more things than me that's true but it's something about the dishes and it's like it's just like my mom also like noticed it and then he said like yeah sort of like you're right yeah of course i should like you know pick up the dishes or whatever i use and put them in the dishwasher like that point onwards it's been like two three years now i have never seen him like leave his um oh wow glass yeah um i mean then the human rights speech worked you know it's just me being upset that work just making you know it a big drama a little bit of drama i wish i could do the same outside like 122 million girls out of school what are you guys doing i'm not going to talk to you yeah this is what i want to tell leaders why would you not invest in girls education why would you not put money in there when you know the benefits are exponential it will improve economies it will reduce poverty it will help tackle climate change it will help create a better safer future why is it that 120 million girls do not have the right to be in school what do they say to you when you ask them these questions i think it's the same old thing like in the last five years we have committed more than this many million dollars and we are committed more than ever pledging and committing yeah and we know that there's a huge gap in funding for education climate-related events, these wars and conflicts are worsening it.

1:37:38Afghanistan is the most extreme case because when the Taliban took power four years ago, they immediately announced a ban on girls' education. Girls are not allowed to be in school beyond grade six. Women cannot be in universities. Women cannot work. They cannot be in the parliament. They cannot play sports. They cannot go see a doctor without a male chaperone. They cannot visit a park. They cannot even speak loudly when they're inside their houses. That's how much the Taliban are controlling the lives of women, from their voices to how they're dressed to their movement. It is like the most systemic, oppressive regime that the women are living under right now.

1:38:21And it's painful to see it happening every day. Very painful to see it. and the Afghan women are like living it. But in this time, when I think about the bravery and the courage of the Afghan women who are standing up to the Taliban and they want to like reclaim the old lives they had. It's not that these, you know, women were sort of used to this culture. No, they had fought really hard for their right to be working, to be in school. And the Taliban just suddenly took all of that away from them. Afghan activists are calling it a gender apartheid, that this is systemic oppression in which women are oppressed simply based on their gender.

1:39:07If they were born a boy, they would have a different life. But they're born a girl. They cannot be in school. They cannot imagine to work. And it's the Taliban who are determining their lives and restricting them to the four walls of their houses. They are erasing women from public life in any political participation. They're literally erasing women. And they're punishing women for disobeying any of these rules. That's the most important thing because people often think that gender discrimination is a problem in a lot of countries and in the global south or that these things happen. It's culture.

1:39:48It's this and that. And I'm not saying that that is not a reality. Of course, that is. And things weren't perfect for women and girls in Afghanistan before the Taliban. But what's different under the Taliban regime is that it is systemic. The people who are supposed to protect civilians, the people who are supposed to give justice to women and girls are the ones who are the perpetrators. They are committing the crimes. It is systemic crime where they are abusing their power. and in cases like these where do the women go because they can't seek justice from the taliban there's no one the taliban police are the ones who are arresting them for simply daring to learn or go to a secret school or protest or simply go to work so many of these households are run by women women are the are the breadwinners and the taliban just do not allow them to work so So it's a very difficult place for women right now, but I'm always inspired by their resilience and their courage and how they're fighting back.

1:40:51The activists who are in exile are doing advocacy globally from codifying gender apartheid to bringing women's issues to the stage to also pushing for the inclusion of women and girls on the agenda where any peace talks and dialogues are happening. to also women being present in those rooms where decisions about the future of Afghanistan are made. And at the same time, they are like running projects in the country as well. So at Malala Fund, we are supporting both. We are giving grants to organizations who are putting pressure on leaders to hold the Taliban accountable. And at the same time, we're also giving grants to organizations who are providing alternative education from radios to television to underground schools to like offline and online platforms.

1:41:39We're using everything that we can to keep girls learning as many as we can. I can't help but wonder as you're saying that, you know, oftentimes when we are told these stories, if you live in a country like the United States or the UK or, you know, any of the more powerful nations, oftentimes it sounds like people are saying well invade or you know it swings between two worlds either fully come in with a militarized force or do nothing it's a binary that that reduces the solution down to only two when it feels like it could be more nuanced so when when you when you're looking at the situation you know you're talking to activists and you're talking to advocates what are some of the things you think world leaders could actually be doing beyond going in and then just, you know, creating more war and more turmoil?

1:42:30I think for me, it was never about whether the military should have stayed there forever or for me, it was about how they left. Yeah, definitely. And in what state they left the country. They did not give power to the local people. I think the US just suddenly brought the Taliban out of nowhere to these peace talks, like so-called peace talks. The Taliban had little control. And suddenly the U.S. was like, we're going to leave and we're going to bring you back so we can negotiate with you. Like, negotiate on what? And Afghan women and girls were not included. Their issues were not really brought up.

1:43:11They were pushed aside. and what's happening in Afghanistan is because of what the Taliban are doing right now. But I think the countries who let that happen and who are still silent and looking away are also complicit. They should also be held accountable. And that's why I think that campaigns like codifying gender apartheid in the Crime Against Humanity Treaty or just like really questioning our international law is important because like when such horrible things happen like you know I think about the girls I'm like is anybody thinking about them why are the Taliban getting away with it four years and somehow we are still saying if and but and this and that and and leaders are sometimes just issuing a statement saying yes, Afghan women deserve a better future.

1:44:07And that said, they don't do anything. They're not putting any pressure on the Taliban. Some countries are even normalizing their relationships with Afghanistan. Oh, wow, I didn't know that. And the women are still, even in the last UN talks between the Taliban and the UN representatives in Doha, Afghan women and girls were excluded. That was 2024. I had a call with the UN Secretary General, and I highlighted this, that we cannot decide the future of Afghan women when they're not present in the rooms. They are half of the population. Anything that's decided about the future of Afghanistan is also about their futures.

1:44:54So they must be included. I think it's about solidarity and support for each other. We need to share more empathy. We need to share their stories. And sometimes we feel helpless. What can we do? I think there are options out there from supporting the Afghan activists to their organizations or asking your representatives and your governments about what they're doing.

1:45:26but sometimes it's just simply sharing their stories simply paying attention to like or just stopping for a second and learning about what's happening in Afghanistan is a form of solidarity. Yeah, I think it's providing a complexity and a human side to a statistic so that it's not just a statistic. If anything, that's one of the lessons that I learned from reading your book now is it reminded me that we all have an obligation, in a beautiful way, by the way, not as like a task, but in a beautiful way to think of ourselves as the people we're trying to help. Yeah. And it actually made me wonder if your journey, the Malala who goes to Birmingham, the Malala who then goes and studies in Oxford, the Malala who starts an organization, the Malala who falls in love, who gets married.

1:46:22But as you got to explore and flesh out these parts of yourselves as fully as you have, do you think that's reinvigorated your fight? Do you think that's made you want to go back even more because it shows you how much more there is to fight for? I think I started my journey as an activist, as an idealist. And that's partly because I was very young when I became an activist. now I'm 28 and I have experienced so much more than when I was 11 or 15 and that visionary optimistic child Malala is still in there but I feel there's a bit more cynical and skeptical Malala who has also seen rejections rejections we always remember who has seen setbacks how the whole country of Afghanistan can be a place for women and girls where they do not have any rights.

1:47:27They suddenly become second-class citizens. To seeing how still we are so behind on creating a world where every child can be in school and can have the opportunity to learn. It should be a right. Nobody should be in any way limited in learning. It's the simple right to be able to read a book, write. It's crazy that it's even considered a luxury in many ways. You know, just if you think about it, and I know with technology, things are changing, and it's a different story in like developed countries. But I'm like, whatever you want to call it, online or homeschooling, or whatever you want to call it, that debate is separate.

1:48:04But it's just this right to learn. And to see how many millions of girls and children are denied this right is shocking. Like we're still living in this time, we are making progress on so many things and still we are leaving like this this generation of children without an education so i think that's like it's the foundation it's the foundation of who we become and what opportunities we can have in life it's a step towards progress it's a step towards more prosperous economy and there's so many benefits and for me it's you know it's like the reality of the world we're living in right now that with an education i believe girls can make decisions about their life and they can choose their own future that's the most important thing yeah we cannot let them be in a place where their future is decided by somebody else yeah let them be the main characters in their stories or their culture or you know whoever it is elders or whatever that is it's them making those choices for themselves without pressure without judgment um that they can be free souls I really love that and I appreciate you sharing that I think that was my favorite takeaway And it sort of ties everything up perfectly When I read the book, some of the main themes I thought of was One, we should never take for granted the power and value of belonging For ourselves in our lives, for the communities we're in For the societies we build, for refugees, for immigrants like nobody doesn't want to be where they're from nobody doesn't want to be with their people yes and if we remember that we then try and make sure that their worlds are better so that they can be in their world instead of fighting with them coming into our world and then the other one that that i i really enjoyed you sharing is that it's always a work in progress you know it's like we we find you at this moment in time as malala and we'll find you at another moment in time in the future and we'll find but in the same way you as a person are or you know a work in progress All of these issues, life is a work in progress.

1:50:13We're still trying to figure it out. We're still trying to, you know, we'll see. Do we want to wear jeans or do we not want to wear jeans? You know, we'll figure it out as we go. So, yeah, I appreciate you sharing it. Thank you. For me, I see a sense of belonging in a very different way than I used to. I thought it was always about the place where you were born, where you spent your childhood. And now with time, I'm realizing that I have actually spent a lot more time outside Pakistan than I have inside Pakistan. But that strong bond and connection with the country where I was born can never be taken away.

1:50:47Even if I spend the rest of my life somewhere on Mars, it can never be taken away. I feel like a part of me belongs to that soil, to that air, like I'm there, like my soul is somehow there. It is, but it is. I genuinely believe that it is. And when I visited my parents' village, Shangla, where we had built a school and I wanted to visit that school and just see the girls, like the first class that were graduating. But I also saw the graveyard of my grandmother, Abai, who was so dear to me. And I just could not imagine losing her because I thought she was somebody who was praying for me all the time.

1:51:24I felt safe when she was there. And when she was gone, I immediately felt that something had gone missing in my life. But when I visited her grave, I realized that she was there. She was there in the air. And I just felt her presence and I felt her prayers. But now I'm traveling. I am spending time with my friends, with my husband. And I don't find that home and belonging just in the places, in the locations where I am. But it's among the people. It's the idea. it's with my siblings, that little fight that we have, the argument. It's with my mom and dad. It's with my husband when we are just binge watching a TV show.

1:52:14It's everywhere where I meet incredible girls, activists who give me hope, who inspire me, and whose work is really changing the world for people out there. I always have this sense of relief and happiness in my heart when I see the work of other people. And I know they're doing so much more that we don't see, that we don't hear about, but they are changing the lives of people. They're changing their communities.

1:52:50And I feel safer and I feel happier when I see that world. And I think, you know, we should always like hold hands together and be in solidarity with each other. And I just, for me, ideally, like this whole globe should be our home. You know, that we are more friendly and more, we're nicer to each other, kinder to each other. Yeah. As my brother says it the best way, he says, whenever you feel skeptical and you feel like the whole world is going the wrong way, which it can in many times, he always says, go outside and touch grass. Yeah. Just go outside, touch grass, you'll see somebody else on that grass and that might be the beginning of a new friendship.

1:53:25And so I appreciate you for that. Thank you. Thank you for joining me here. Thank you so much. Thank you for inspiring me, but also reminding me that you're not only inspirational. I like that. I like to know that you're flawed because it makes me feel a little better about myself. Oh, you're welcome.

1:53:42Thank you so much, Malala. Thank you. This was great.

1:53:49What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now.

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