Vic Mensa: The Power of Perspective

34:28But I can't call him at 4 Because then he won't be like Engaged in something He'll pick up So then this guy is going like, when is the time when I know that it will be here. I called you in pickup. No. Most likely you're in the bathroom. I come back. No. So I called you direct two seconds. And then I called again. Wait, so he didn't pick up the first time. So this is what happens. Because I was in an Indian restaurant. I knew this would be me being snitched on. No, no, no. This is what happens. Ding ding Then I was doing a thing Then I was like I'm just fine now Ding ding Off Not even many rings Then I go Because it comes back Then I go Call back You know what I mean No call Because then I know He was just trying to do that Ticker box Yes Ticker box Then what happened is I stopped I left it Because maybe You know what I mean How long did you give it for?

35:26For like Two minutes You know what I mean Yeah it's a good time Then yeah Because you're giving him space to call back Yes Then I called again So now I look like an idiot. Then I called again. And then he didn't pick up. Then, you know, like, you know, because it's a WhatsApp call, the WhatsApp also makes you feel more thirsty than you are. WhatsApp tells you if a motherfucker's been on the phone. All this nigga Trevor Noah was available two minutes ago. And then WhatsApp also does that thing where it says, would you like to record a voice message? I don't want to record a voice message. I'm not the one.

35:58He's calling me. You didn't start this thing. Yes, I just started. And even the promise of I'll call you at 2.30. Why? This is a good place to explain. Why I got a new iPhone? No. People have very different experiences in life. And I think one of my gifts has always been being able to understand that everyone is consuming the same reality from their perspective. Don't make it deep. Don't make it deep. Let me explain why. He's going to say I have ADHD or whatever. He tells everybody to have. No, let me explain. What if he says AIDS? I love your experience I'll tell you what happened This is actually great It's a very poignant thing to chat about I feel like Vic will even have great opinions on this So You are correct, I said to you I'll call you at 2.30 Why did you say 2.30?

36:47Because that is when my previous engagement was going to end So I knew my thing ends at 2 Oh, you wanted to catch momentum So I was like, my thing ends at 2 I can make the call by 2.30 Also remember, this is unprompted I'm not asking for 2 No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not asking for this. Yeah, he saw a twerp twerp twerp twerp. He's just putting you in a wild goose chase. Yes, but wait. I'm not asking for this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but wait, wait, wait. Do we need to tighten that up? You're not on your side here. No, I think it's okay. All right. This guy used to record albums at the Ice Store.

37:14No, you never know, but I mean, he's cool with anything. You know, there's tricks to these things sometimes. It's like a little, you know? So, okay. So, this is what I'm saying. The 230, you are completely correct, my friend. And let me first say, before saying anything else, I apologize. Ah, don't apologize. I don't accept. He doesn't mean it. I don't accept because you're trying to know. No, wait. First of all, let me say I apologize for sending the 230. I'm on pickup. Don't apologize. No. Now, let me explain what happened. I don't accept. Let me explain what happened. I don't accept on your behalf.

37:42No. No. So how I get around. I get around riding a bicycle. That's how I prefer. Wait. This is how I get around. It's him. You should have looked harder So I get around riding a bicycle Right? Okay? Ride bicycles Ride bicycles So The thing that I planned Didn't end at the time That I thought I planned Then I get on a bicycle So now I cannot make this call Riding the bicycle Riding the bicycle Get to the next thing Now I've missed the time Should have said something But didn't Fine But I also know No, but I also know No, no, no Making AirPods on a bike Is terrible Because the wind Goes into them Maybe this new CEO At Apple We'll fix this There's so much wind That goes in That the other person On the other side That's all they're hearing So I was like There's no point In making this call I also knew That my friend If he was plagued By the time He would say like Yo yo yo We need to chat I wasn't plagued By the time No I knew this So let me explain What happened now When I made the call 7.30 I just finished something I was done 7.30 I made the call I was like Alright call Now this is a pet peeve That I have That is actually affecting people's friendships, might I say.

38:52No. WhatsApp lies about how many rings are occurring. When you phone somebody on WhatsApp, this is now... No, wait. This is a deep lie. You're about to go. Can I tell you something? Let me tell you something about my pet peeve, my friend. And remember, I'm the tech guy. Don't forget this. WhatsApp lies to you. Let me explain to you. WhatsApp will lie to you. Your phone will be ringing. You go dial. It'll start ringing on your end But it's not ringing on the other end No, but calling and ringing is too domestic No, no, no, no, no, no It does that sometimes But still, it will ring on your So what I'll do Like with Lawrence, for instance I'll say How long did that ring on your side?

39:31He'll be like, it rang once I'm like, nah I've been waiting for like 10 rings on my side We track this on purpose WhatsApp will make it seem Like it's ringing on the other side But it's not ringing You think you've been waiting for long The other person hasn't waited When I called you This guy is You know the last person who said this The last person who said this was Literally Albert Einstein Do you remember he said the theory of relativity Time is different on what your side Time is this guy is trying to No So let me explain what happened So what happens is So on his side What happens is You say it rang and then it was done I waited for long No I'm telling you from my side It rang for a very long time Then I was like this guy is clearly Not next to his phone And he's not on his phone Done Then I got onto a bicycle So if you phoned me While I'm on a bicycle I'm now not gonna answer that call Why?

40:28I'm not pulling out my phone While I'm riding He's on a bike I'm on a bike my friend I'm on a bike now I'm not gonna pull out my phone So now you're calling me back While I'm on a bike The calls come in You see if you had airpods You would have said At the end of the journey At the end of the journey Then I look at my phone There are many things that have been missed But I'm like you know what We'll get to them another time another day And I know that my friend isn't stressed by them And that's how we move on Do you have your phone with you? Either way I apologize Do you have your phone with you?

40:59But I don't even want to test that You're on speaker? I don't want to test I have a theory that it could be the ringtone You could have those ringtones that go And then he's like Boop, boop. Vic, I'm asking you a question. How many friends do you have in your life that might actually be your enemies? People who are trying to bring you down. I got a handful of far more sinister frenemies than this. Okay, let's see here. Let's see. Speaker, it's ringing already. One. Yeah, but we're on the same Wi-Fi. Ah, now you're looking for... Wait, do it again. When I say ringtone, Lapo. Girl. On full volume, when speaker, Lapo.

41:40Yes, but we're on the same Wi-Fi. Maniga. We're on the same Wi-Fi here Doesn't matter A call is a call Because I want to hear The ringing Versus his ringing I'm going to try again Remember I called you Even just before This is what technology Does to us in society You switched it off That's why Why is that That's why we In society guys Can I just say No Can I just say Vic let me ask Actually you know Vic You know Vic This is a perfect segue This is a perfect segue You know Vic This is a perfect segue For me to ask you As somebody who uses technology to connect with people, do you ever fear its ability to disconnect you from people?

42:26And I mean, you know, so you actually got me. April 1st, you put out the video. I remember being very sad. Vic put out a video saying he was quitting Instagram. Oh, when he was playing with us. And he was quitting speaking publicly. Yeah, I was upset. And it was slides. Yeah. Each slide I got more emotional. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got more sad. Yeah. He's talking about all the money he's lost for being outspoken. Yes. He's talking about how, you know, it's not worth it anymore. He's just going to go into a hole and not say anything in society. Yo, I was deep and I was feeling it. Yeah. And then the last slide, he was like, April Fool's.

42:59Yeah. I didn't appreciate that. Because I thought at some point we just get over April Fool's, but not Vic Mensa. That was fine every time. But no, but you know what it did? It honestly did bring up. I thought to myself I was like Yeah but like You're putting out these videos At a pretty frequent rate now The one thing you can't control Is where the videos go How the videos go How people even pick out a piece From the video Splice it together Because you've curated something You've put out a message But then there's somebody out there Who's going to take the message And cut it And make it seem like Vic Mensah said this Or make it seem like Vic Mensah said that Pick what they like out of it How do you process it And does it affect what you do or do not say.

43:39Sorry, just for, there's a real thing. Before you go into that, for those who don't know, let's say my mom was watching, do you know what I'm saying? Just could you describe the videos? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, no, if you, actually, no, this is a good point. For those who don't know, it's the, you've seen them. Yeah. If you, I think Dave is secretly telling us he hasn't seen them. I have seen them. No, no, let me tell you what they are, Dave. Dave does this sometimes. He'd be like, pretend my mom, but it's really him. So Dave, Vic Mensah, you probably know him from his rap career. hip-hop etc fashion all of these things but recently vick has blown up online for putting a series for creating a series where he speaks to issues happening in the world and i think the biggest thing that's made in his backyard in his backyard or a backyard i'm not assuming it's his is that your backyard oh no so and what's what's made it really engaging is not just the content it's like the style and the and the way that he does it so he picks an orange off of a tree first and then he walks up to the camera and he starts discussing something while he's peeling the orange and then he eats the orange and and sometimes he looks at the orange while he's peeling it yeah and then I don't know I don't know I don't know why or how this happens but you you go sometimes you look yeah because that's what made me realize it's a real orange oh you thought it might have been AI I was like but when your thumbs were in it and then you were like yeah because some oranges are harder than other oranges they are this is true this is true you actually have to think about it yeah But anyway, this is huge.

45:09Nominated for a Webby now. It's become a piece of internet culture in a way. You know when you know you've achieved that? It's when people parody it. So I've seen people now go to a tree and pick another fruit to do a joke about something. Yeah, the guy that brought the Jack Harlow controversy to light. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He started it with the tree. Exactly. He said, you realize how this doesn't make sense? Because he pulled a bag of chips. Yes. so and just another question just a quick one what are like just quickly what are like the range of topics that you sort of would talk about i'm talking about things that are happening in the world geopolitical things uh my mental health like experiences that are happening in my life a lot of what's going on in america african history and events and things like that just a lot of the same things i would talk about in conversation which are you know saying um the question may originally was how do you deal with or has it fragmentation yeah yeah of your words online you know i think part of part of it for me is definitely doing my best to not be too attached to response which can be difficult but um to try to stay driven by message i mean try to try to stay driven by purpose.

46:33I think about a time I was on your show, like, it must have been 10 years ago. Yeah, on The Daily Show. You know, when I came back from Palestine and I was on your show speaking about my experience in Palestine and in the West Bank and how it reminded me of American racism and Jim Crow. And that was early in the common parlance of discussions about Palestine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, for the American populace, you know what I'm saying? And yeah, at that time, I experienced a lot of blowback. Not particularly for being on your show, what I said on there, but generally for speaking my mind, you know what I mean, about what I felt.

47:18Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. Shut up. Who are you? Yeah, it's the usual. You know, and the people in my team and in my circle that I didn't know felt very differently about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And for sure, throughout the years, there's been so much fallout and consequence and loss of money and loss of opportunities for for being outspoken, like for saying the things that I believe. But ultimately, I have tried the opposite. You know what I mean? I've tried to like muzzle myself and be silent at times when I knew I had something to offer of value. And that was pretty soul crushing too.

47:59You know, that didn't like, that didn't lead me in the right direction either. And I feel like maybe I've started to feel that leaning into purpose and like being driven by my purpose serves me. You know, that it's better for me, it's better for the world. And if people fragment it, if people misunderstand it, if people misuse it, that's going to be a part of it. I'm sure there's been so many times when things that you've said have been manipulated. Yeah, I mean, look at what WhatsApp did to me with my friend. WhatsApp is the culprit. Just that alone. I mean, look at it. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

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51:15You know, one of the things I appreciate about what you do, though, specifically is, and I hope I can frame this correctly. I feel like some people create things online so that they can create more things online and I the reason it's hard to articulate is because people go like but isn't everyone trying to make things to make things no I think of it like this okay politicians especially in America I find spend all their time or a lot of their time campaigning so that they can be re-elected so that they can campaign, so that they can be reelected, so that they can campaign, so that they can be reelected.

51:56Then I go, wait, wait, wait. What was the point of getting into power if you never used that power for the people who voted you in? And they go, as soon as I'm in, fundraising, I've got to get more money and I've got to get this. And I go, yeah, yeah, yeah, but why? Well, so that I can get reelected. So that you can do something. You forget the initial purpose of why you came in. it would have been better for you to come in for a single term do your damnedest to deliver and just leave it would have been better for you and it would have been better for your constituents i think there's also something that's happening online where there used to be a world where people would create things and put them online because they wanted to create things but then now people create so that people can view them so that they can create so that they can view them so that they can create so they can you know what i mean so that's when people become parodies of themselves they become caricatures of themselves they they do things to to like make you feel a certain way right yeah i don't say this to gas you up honestly i never feel like you're trying to spark outrage i never feel like you are trying to make something go viral i never feel like you are like i don't i don't feel riled up by your comments both for you or against you and what i mean by that is i don't watch your videos and go yeah get them vic and i don't watch your videos and go like, I can't believe Vic said that.

53:18I just listen to you and I find myself going, damn, what an interesting way to phrase that. That's an interesting lens that he applied on this topic or that viewpoint, wow, I like the way he put that together. Am I reading that correctly? I appreciate that immensely coming from you, man. I'm a consummate fan of your comedy and really your perspective because I feel like you're somebody that shows me that, mediums are just that they're they're avenues with which to express what is contained by the human being oh damn you know what i'm saying and that like comedy is a medium for sure and then late night tv was its own medium yeah you know even this is its own medium um i was watching like uh your newest special um on on netflix and i was just like i was so glad to to be watching you as a comedian.

54:14You know what I'm saying? Because I'm just such a huge fan of you as a comedian. And that medium, you know what I'm saying? That way of looking at the world and dissecting it. Fucking Martin Luther King realizing he fought for bland chicken. So good. And the purpose of it, you know what I'm saying? as I've been doing the things I've been doing right now online, it's really, in a way, been my way of dissecting how I see the world, but also working on writing jokes and making fun of it and having genuine conversation the way I would talk to a friend, because the world is fucking on fire. It's crazy, but we black people, man.

55:06You know what I'm saying? We make everything fun. We ain't just like sitting around suffering about it. No. You know what I mean? I'm sure niggas even on the plantation. I guess that's what Joy in the Trench was about. That's literally what it was about. You made a plantation joke. Like the fucking overseer comes and you picking the cotton while he's there. As soon as he leaves, you say, you motherfucking dirty ass. Yeah, but I think that's - Wet hair, wet dog smelling ass. I think that's what it is. White motherfucker. Well, these are not my words. Let me just say Vic has just added his own - I would have been thinking about it.

55:33He's just paraphrased everything. Eugenio was looking at me like Hey who is my friend? I was like who are you? Wet ass dirty dog Dirty dog smelling ass The nigga Something I've realized that once Purpose is a selfish pursuit It's just when people Get to experience it from you They think there's more to it Than there actually is So for example The example that you made About politicians Oh shit wait hold on Say that again Purpose is a selfish pursuit So when people see it and they enjoy it They start thinking They make the result of your purpose Like it was always for them It was always for them So when a politician is campaigning Just maybe they like being on the road Just maybe they like the staff meetings And the late campaign and the photo shoots But they were never about service delivery They were never about making sure that you get the water But we see it in South Africa This is true There's politicians that are good at rallies And they're good at the campaign Yeah, they love the life Yes, but they never thought they'll have to actually sit down And understand what the budgets are How do you guys feel about Julius Malema?

56:41I mean, that's like how long is a piece of string? No, no, no, I'll tell you why So the first thing I'll say is I see him from my American perspective Not knowing so much Okay, I'd love to know Tell us how you see him And then we'll tell you Yeah

57:00Just don't say it, bro You just don't know what you're doing with that weapon. It's a brilliant weapon. Sorry, again, for context, before you answer the Julius Malema question, for those who don't know, Julius Malema is one of the people that people point to to say that he is promoting the white genocide. Yeah, Julius Malema, I would say, is our most controversial publicly and internationally known politician in South Africa. I mean, I love him. In fact, when Trump came after South Africa, Julius Malema was like the thing he held up as like, here's the example I'm using. Yeah, because he had to kill the boar.

57:38Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kill the boar. Yeah. The farmer. Host, host. What a good song. You didn't dab. It was fun. Yeah, I mean, that's how it felt to me. As a black American, I was like, I resonate with this. This shit, the beat, you know what I mean? It does have a vibe, yeah. Yeah, killer, literally. um julius malema yeah i look at him not knowing so much yeah and i love him i mean he seems like he's he's the one that is um fighting back by any means necessary that's the feeling the sense that i get from him when i was in south africa something that broke me was to realize that white people are maybe about 10 percent of the population i think even less yeah in south africa maybe even less and hold 90 percent of the wealth then i think about america where black people are about 10 13 and once again white people hold 90 of the wealth and being there being on the continent you know i mean in this cradle of fucking civilization and seeing that that freedom freedom was so partial, you know what I mean?

58:54And that the ownership of the land and the wealth was squarely not in the hands of the Africans, was riveting, you know what I mean? The woman I was with at the time, she had to like check me at a point in time. She's like, you can't just get mad at every white person you see. Damn, that's funny. And I'm like, but why the fuck you niggas own everything? You know? And I'm livid, you know what I mean? what i mean and then i see julius malema and he's like kill the boar the farmer you know and i'm like that's my nigga you know my knee guy i'm my knee guy i'm my knee guy yeah okay let's catch with okay so tell me how you guys so and eugene i mean you'll interject anyway this this is this is how i see it i think julius malema in terms of his rhetoric has one of the most progressive rhetorics that I've ever come across.

59:49And he's inspired one of the more necessary conversations, not just in South Africa, but on the continent and in the world as a whole. And the argument, because there's people who won't know it, is if I distill it down, it is fundamentally this. Can you claim to give somebody their freedom if you do not give them the tools to actually exercise that freedom? And if I was to use an analogy here, oftentimes what i think he's speaking about in terms of restitution is he'll go south africa's racism you don't have to go far back you know you don't have to go back like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years it's our parents literally like not not figuratively it is literally our parents who were the last like like let's say adult victims of apartheid and then we were born in apartheid and then we experienced democracy and freedom outside of it yes and so we grew up outside of it but when you when you look at that there are many things that the state stole from black people and all other people of colored people in if you name it the state stole these things from them took that and gave it to the white population in south africa and many of them and this is something that i think is important to to say many of them unknowingly receiving it yeah which is which is a part of the conversation people don't really have often many white people in south africa were obscured from the reality of the situation yeah so they were going we get good roads we get free schools we get unemployment seems like the government's doing a good job opportunities and then the government would just go hey just so you know man these black people are crazy out here we're holding them back and the only place they got their reality from was from the government and so in the same way it's funny i remember when i went to the african-american history museum one of the things you see um mlk talk about is he in all of his writings when he's trying to get journalists to come out and cover what's happening he's saying in his writing i paraphrase this because i don't know if i'll say it accurate but he says because i truly believe when our white brothers and sisters see what is being done by the American government to black people, I believe that they will stand up with us.

1:02:13So I find it fascinating that even in America, MLK, and then in South Africa, white people were obscured from the truth. The truth was being obscured from them, right? So they receive these things. The government steals from black people to make white people live a life that is as good and as easy as possible. Democracy comes, but there is no restitution. There is no correcting of this. The analogy I always use with people is I go, your house is robbed. The police come. They say, hey, we've solved the case. You were robbed. And we caught the person who robbed you. And you go like, all right, so what do we do now?

1:02:53They're like, no, no, we're not going to do anything now. They're going to keep everything that they stole from your house. But we can all agree that this was terrible. And you're like, wait, wait, that's it? It's like, no, no, no, let's start from here now. We do agree this was terrible, so let's move forward from here. But we don't want to take it back from that person because, I mean, two wrongs don't make a right. This is why I love Julius Malema. Right, but the issue is, and this is the issue I have with many politicians, rhetoric versus action. Maybe I'm an outlier in saying this, maybe I'm not.

1:03:28I think Julius Malema and many other politicians like him, not just in South Africa, but on the African continent, have fantastic rhetoric. But the actions that they participate in do not necessarily do what they need to do to liberate the people that they're trying to liberate. I think mostly it's a timing thing. So there's a strange thing about South African history that if you tell it the way it is, you run the risk of being an apologist for the Africana apartheid system. Oh, that's interesting. Because it starts in three parts. So the first part was the British who oppressed the black people, the Khoisan indigenous people of the country, and the black people.

1:04:04And then when the British were like, okay, now you can have your own republic. And they left. They left the whole system to the Africana. The Dutch at the time, yeah. The Dutch, yes. So they were like, okay, now we're going to run this thing our way. And then they took the system that the British had and gave it a name. So before it was just colonization. And then they called it apartheid. But now they were like, okay, now we're going to promote two races here Colored people will be the second And then we'll be the first one, which is the Africana But even in the Afrikaners, not all Afrikaners benefited from apartheid There was elitism as well It went with surnames in which people were prestigious and who was educated Because when it was first formed, there was a first group that was sent to Holland To go study architecture, literature and art To create the Pernif paintings that we see that were all in government buildings to create the architecture of the parliament and the union buildings.

1:04:54And the rich people gave up land, which is now owned by the state, Pretoria, Harte, Piersport Dam, were all owned by the elite who were connected with Netherlands, who were with Dutchland. So Afrikaans people did not just benefit. So what we see as historical suburbs and schools that are Model C, that we call Model C, which were the first to get integrated, was because they were not protected by privilege. Those were working class neighborhoods. where they put a stadium here and a school here. So the integration happened there first. So it was harder to penetrate the big-ass mentioned suburbs that the elite people that owned the mines and the land and the farms were living in.

1:05:34And it would never happen in our country. So the second part about what I find, which is a weird social experiment with Julius Malema and the EFF, is revolution can never happen in a democratic society. And that kind of rhetoric of revolution. Remember that these guys grew up in the ANC of Peter Mugabe, who was a firebrand, who was the next spoken up person after Nelson Mandela. And he just happened to be a young person when Nelson Mandela was released. And they grew up under him. So their rhetoric about what democracy, I mean, what revolution is, what freedom is, was mistimed. Because in the middle of democracy, you can't shout those words while you yourself are in a Range Rover and a Mercedes Benz and living in old historic suburbs and your children are enjoying private schools.

1:06:15So his voice got lost in there The second part about that group was He was not a lone wolf There were two other guys who were involved In the building of the party That people liked as if it was a boy band So there was the academic Which is Dr. Mbuse Nglosi And there was another person who loves finance An academic which is Floyd Shivamu And those people left the party And he was left alone to become a dictator Julius Malema, yeah Yes, but the funny part about that is There was an inquiry now in South Africa and there was a parliamentary panel of it, which he, everyone expected, to be the chair of it.

1:06:49He refused to be the chair of it and he recused himself from a lot of testimonies of corrupt policemen that involved him. So he's losing the fight over and over and right now, two weeks ago, he was found guilty of discharging a firearm in a rally. And he was charged and he's going to FaceTime. Julius Malema. Yeah, he was sent him to five years. Well, he said, the farmer. Yeah, then he'd go. That's my favorite part of the song. He's now serving time for a man Yeah so if he was convicted and charged For helping a person Who was being mistreated because of their race I'd be like okay But for breaking the firearms control act Discharging a machine gun See this is funny This brings me to one of my other realizations About South Africa It's so different I was learning about the hip hop artists And they were like man In South Africa being a hip hop artist And being a gangster is actually like a demerit to your career because it makes you seem less commercially viable.

1:07:46Because to hear about a well-known public figure going to jail for saying and discharging a firearm, this connects to things I like about artists. This is so funny. This connects to things that seem very familiar to me. Like, man, South Africa showed me so much, bro. I was like, first of all, I just think the entire idea of Afrikaners is hilarious. So you just a white nigga that put an extra A in your name? And now you think you're an African? You're fucking Dutch. And French. And French and go the fuck home to those two very distinct places. I look at fucking Elon Musk's loose skin, Sith Lord ass father who sits there and he says, America's becoming darker by the minute.

1:08:33Well, why would they want to do that? Do they want to go back to the jungle? like nigga you got a place you could go back to the netherlands it's right they'll welcome you with fucking open arms i just what's funny is they don't that's that they really don't no that's the funny thing about the story that people forget is many of the original dutch settlers who came to south africa were outcasts the netherlands was like we don't want these people the same way the original people who settled in australia were outcasts they were like we don't want to claim Claim a new state and claim a - Yeah, but to Eugene's point, I think the key thing that we lose in a lot of these conversations, and that's funny enough, I think why many of your videos have resonated with people, is when you peel back metaphorically and literally the layers, class is the one thing that emerges constantly and consistently.

1:09:25And it's not going anywhere, yeah. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. So to your point, race being a fiction, It's like, yeah, it's a subjective reality. So race doesn't exist, but it also does. But racism is very real. The aspects of race are very real. Completely. And race is a subjective amorphous. There you go. But Klaas, there's an English writer who said it beautifully one day. And she said, I cannot wait for the United States to finish its race war so that it can realize that it was fighting about class all along. All along, yeah. The entire time. But race was the justification for the creation of class.

1:10:07Class will always look for things. But you've seen it in South Africa where there would be our uncles or our dads would be working in a factory with white people. Yeah. And they would be great friends because of the class that they find themselves in. There's a solidarity in that class. And then one day your uncle would go visit his white friend suburb and he'd be like, you're poor on me. They'd be like, But we work at the same place and we earn the same salary. So it's about classism. I've seen it in the same way where... And the class distinction in South Africa is fucking so shocking. How white people in South Africa will treat the white beggar.

1:10:40Oh, no, I haven't seen the white beggar. I would argue most of the time worse than beggar. I miss them. I was going to Soweto and I was stopping by my friend's family home. Yeah. And her uncle was massively wealthy. I had never seen this level of wealth except maybe in the homes of Jay-Z and Kanye. And I asked what he did, you know. And he made his fortune selling toilet paper to the prisons. Interestingly, the same private prison companies that own facilities in America, Geo Group, Core Civic, they own private prisons in South Africa. So they profit from the same confinement, destruction of black bodies.

1:11:25And I saw him making his fortune, supplying those prisons as a way of shucking and jiving, for sure. I go to Soweto. I'm going to get a shisanyama. You know what I mean? I'm catching my vibe. And this man jumps out once again to try to give me a parking spot, help me for a tip. And he was singing this song. He said, my name is Jack. I live in a shack. I might be black, but I got a six pack. Did he? Yeah, that was his song. I remember it vividly. Oh, he was so hungry, he had a six pack. Damn. You know what I'm saying? And I was like, he's really shucking and jiving. Damn. And it was crazy, though, because I was like, damn, for a black man to make it, to put food in his body in this society, I'm seeing shucking and jiving on a street level.

1:12:16And even the richest nigga is shucking and jiving, though, to achieve this momentous wealth. and that shit kind of frustrated me, man. But I argue though, those are two spikes from a multi-pronged world because South Africa is, I mean, far from perfect. Don't get me wrong. But I will say, only thanks to traveling, I have come to appreciate how many more paths are starting to appear for black people. Yeah. So there are black people who Let's not even call it a fortune Because not every person has made a fortune There are black people who are just like Doing it You know A completely different way Like You know I can think of like A woman who started out selling You know what we call Amaquinha But let's say like a version of like A fried donut type thing On the street corner Selling it out of a bucket Doing it And then you go back there today And you're like Oh wow now she has like a Like a store and an enterprise and she's running this thing.

1:13:22And then on the other side, you have accountants and you have lawyers. You still have a guy on the street begging and doing this. And I'm not saying it's perfect, but what I have appreciated about it is that it's sort of, it's reminded me of the class story as opposed to the race story. And what I mean by that is, even in South Africa, so you see what you said earlier in the conversation about Ghana, where they'll say, ah, white man, and they have a name for it. What do you say to this? Obroni. Say again? Obroni. Yeah, Obroni. In Nigeria, it's Oibo. Oibo. My t-shirt, Obroni. I've been fighting over Obroni my whole fucking life.

1:13:58And then with us, we have Ngamla. Yeah. Or Lekhoa. But it's said as like a, it's like, you have achieved so much that you are now in the echelon of the white man. Yeah. That is how well you've done. What I appreciate is like over time, not tomorrow, I think that slowly disappears. That slowly becomes, you know, and then we get away from it. And then hopefully we go, oh, okay, now we're just dealing with like a class thing. Because without that, we don't go anywhere. Yeah, I also feel like South Africa was just built on a lot of systemic corruption as well. Like a lot of stuff was given to people and businesses were given to people that didn't deserve it.

1:14:44And as soon as someone gets caught, the whole value chain doesn't get court. So for example, in South Africa, when apartheid ended, a lot of buildings were given to people who were literally children, who didn't know what they were doing. They were just given these buildings, these title deeds of these buildings. So as they grew up as adults, they end up inheriting these buildings, owning them. So when the state wants the building, they have to buy the building from them. Right? So now you see it with people who are caught, like for example, there's a system called the tendering system, where we come and then we bid, whoever has the lowest price can supply the price.

1:15:18You have it as well? Yeah, they have it in the US. So the toilet paper story, he's probably a tenderpreneur. He probably put on a bid and then someone tipped him and then he got the thing. But the thing is what happened with that money is the money buys houses, buys cars, but the dealerships are not owned. Luxury dealerships are not owned by black people. Luxury estate agents are not black people. So the money still circulates amongst the same people again. The story always ends with the people people wanted to end with. Yes. You know what it reminds me of Miami? I always found it interesting that like every documentary that would teach you about the drug trade in Miami will talk about the money that drug dealers were spending.

1:15:54You know, these Colombian drug lords and these. But they never talk about the fact that the money went somewhere. Corruption needs a cycle. You can't be corrupt alone. You know when people be like, Africa's so corrupt. Then I'm like, with who? You ever seen that video of the so-called African politician who was like, corruption is not bad. It is only bad if I'm not a part of it If I'm a part of that corruption I defend it Yeah But corruption Corruption cannot be alone So when people go Africa is corrupt I'm always like yes but with whom You look at the stories There'll be corruption There'll be an arms deal that's corrupt With a French company Like a massive We're not talking about like a mom and pop store Like a French arms contractor It'll be with an American company It'll be with like then you're like oh okay there are outside forces that are really powerful that know they can come into africa do deals with certain people but then leave the corruption story yeah in africa and but still be the puppet master i mean that's yeah oh yeah for sure long-term strategy is to be able to keep the system of corruption going without having to be the face oh yeah for sure you know even like One of the common conversations between Africans and black Americans is the idea that Africans, you guys sold your own.

1:17:18You sold us into slavery. And this is a common point of contention. When I was studying this book called How Europe Underdeveloped Africa by Walter Rodney, he illustrates so clearly the way that the Europeans stifled every mode of legitimate trade so that African states, nations, empires were left with only the option to deal in the most corrupt trade, to deal in slaves. So certain like Dahomey kings sent emissaries to Portugal to request that the trade in slaves end and that they change to legitimate trade in goods. And Portugal was like, fuck no. We're cutting off all land routes. You can't trade with your neighbors.

1:18:09We have superior naval capabilities. We're cutting off the sea. You can't trade by sea. The only option we're going to leave you is that you trade in slaves. And the system of slavery, which is the system of corruption that was brought to the continent, was so wide-reaching and it was so pervasive and all-encompassing that no single African state really had the agency to fully reject the system of slavery. So you end up in this place where, I mean, all your options have been exhausted, you know what I mean? And you're forced into slavery. But then it's so insidious because it leaves the idea even amongst yourself and your progeny and your descendants that you were the source of the corruption that led to your current state of destitution.

1:18:58But really, it's still the puppet master. I mean, it's still the French national corporation that's trading arms with the rebel group that's fighting back against Burkina Faso's Ibrahim Tauri. You know what I mean? It's still like a shadowy puppet master for sure that's funding all of the shit. But they want us to believe that Africa is so corrupt so that we think we're the source of our suffering. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's one of the reasons I appreciate Donald Trump. Jesus blood twist no for real I feel you though can I tell you one of the reasons I appreciate him is that he has not maybe because I don't think he understands why it's necessary he's not participated in the farce right that has kept people seeing the world a certain way explain okay so let's look at Venezuela as an example what did Trump originally say the whole Venezuela beef was about he said the way this man treats his people you know he's talking about maduro yeah nicolas maduro doing these things to his people how can he do this freedom democracy we got it you know what i mean the people of the good the people of the country they oust maduro okay they get maduro he's out he's now in a prison in the united states what does trump say afterwards people go like so regime change or we he's like no the people in there we're happy they're gonna let american companies in and we're very happy and you go yeah but what about the people remember you said the people there were people cheering by the way when helicopters were flying in and there was gunfire the night that maduro was taken there were people in the streets of venezuela cheering because they and they were saying they were saying every time they were cheering going oh my it's happening he's being asked like they were excited for the change and the fact that they were going to be freed from this dictator and then trump turns around and he's like no no no no american companies Can come in and do business again And we're gonna own the oil Yes And we're gonna be taking care of the oil And we're happy And we have the oil I agree with you And then you go Okay but what about the democracy side And he's like Look man The point is American companies can come in And make the money Same thing with Iran You go Why are you there?

1:21:12What are you actually doing there? And anytime He has a hint of optimism Look at what the optimism is about You go Is it about the nuclear Enrichment that they might have He's like, the point is, the straight will be open, and we're going to be doing this together. It's business, baby. We're back. And you're like, oh, you. That's why I say, I don't know if he does it. I think he does it unknowingly. He doesn't understand how valuable the farce was. For sure. Yeah. Does that make sense? Because he's not aligned with the same decorum of the political machine. No, no, no, no. The class of people.

1:21:52He recognizes that, you know, he can manipulate these markets and he can make a massive steal in this short period of time. It doesn't matter to him. Short period being the key. You know what I'm saying? It doesn't matter to him to continue the false veneer. And he's like, this is about the oil. Which is actually brilliant low key because it breaks down all of the bipartisan lies and smoke and mirrors that they've been playing. because they've been warmongering uh you know with iran like soft launching you know i'm saying these missiles for the fucking like decades you know he was the first democrats and republicans but he's the first to just put it on front street to say no actually we want the oil yes this this is this is what this is about i mean this is all right oh sorry yeah because he's he won venez because it's he won venezuela he won yeah i mean he won no no i agree with what he won the that was a that was a you cannot easy victory it was a victory it was a victory okay it was a first round knockout yeah first round it was that mike tyson fight where people hadn't even come into the arena that's that's where you that's what happened there it's just like old recipe colonialism but in the modern age he's trying to use the old yeah but that was a that was a you could not win more in the like any age and go in the number of people who were killed is acceptable by american standards right because it's almost like no americans i don't even think there was one and they've taken the leader out and they got someone who's amenable to what they want.

1:23:18So yes, a win. Then you're like, he's losing Venezuela. I mean, he's losing Iran. Then Cuba for the series because it's going to be tied. One Venezuela. One Venezuela. He lost Iran. Then the Cuban series. So then sometimes I think that the world should help Cuba. So when it comes to the final, you know what I mean? But no one will. Sorry? No one will. Yeah, because Cuba represents something that's so challenging and so dangerous to the supremacy of imperialism and they represent the nigga they just couldn't kill like cuba has defied american supremacy for so long and to be so close yeah and cuba has sent thousands of doctors to africa and sent soldiers to angola and sent fighters to accompany like uh a meal card cabral in guinea like i met with ogs that had photographs of them with weapons in the jungle that had stood side by side with kwame and krumah you know i mean and rocked with patrice lumumba and they're 90 miles from florida you know i mean and so the world can't come to Cuba's defense because Cuba has defied the idea that the American way is better for too long.

1:24:44You know what I mean? They stand for something so significant. And it's interesting though, because when I'm there, the official policy that was laid out by Lester Mallory in like 1960, an American diplomat, was to bring about, I'm paraphrasing, suffering, destruction and starvation to the people of Cuba to the point that they revolt against their own and overthrow the government. That was the official stated policy. And so much time has passed and so many people in Cuba have been born under these current conditions that many of them only blame their own government many of them don't even consider the american sanctions as being part of the issue never mind the fact that fucking american sanctions not just in cuba but around the world over the past 50 years have killed like i don't know like 50 million people it's some astronomical number of people that have died yeah from american sanctions uh but once again that shadowy pupper master effect of being able to circumvent and add in suffering starvation and destruction through a third party uh like type of manipulation it leaves the people feeling like it's their fault it's very similar to the way that africans will feel uh africans often will be like well what about the corruption that you know i mean that we are corrupt yeah yeah what you mean you know saying and i felt that when i was in cuba and it's not that the um that the government of cuba or the government of iran that that these are uh perfect entities you know saying but they're under the heel of of imperialism like how can one operate perfectly under the heel of imperialism that's that's probably the biggest paradox in all of this is there are no perfect messengers and then the story has been dictated by the victors, right?

1:26:45So I struggle with this all the time. I don't know how you process it. I go, you would be lying as a person if you said that Cuba hasn't shown many of the benefits of not adhering to like a strict capitalist system, you know? People educated just because you're going to be educated. Some of the best teachers, some of the best doctors, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it's important to state with almost nothing. Like if you think of resources that the country is almost nothing, right? But then you'd also be lying if you didn't talk about the oppression of those same people by that government.

1:27:17You'd be like, yeah, but what about the people? And what, you know what I mean? What I've noticed is interesting is that the West does a particularly good job of framing its oppression and bad deeds. Of Cuba? No, no, no, of anyone as an outlier. right you know what i mean so if you say to america or americans you go like man look at how many people in america starve or die because the system is designed to make them starve and die from sickness etc people be like yeah well that's when the system doesn't work well that's that's that's not what it's supposed to do and you're like oh okay and then you go like man look how many schools you've bombed or how many kids you've killed around the world if we put that number on any other nation or any other group, I think as the world, we agree, we'd probably go after them, right?

1:28:09Like we wouldn't, that would just not be a thing. We'd have to liberate them and bring them democracy. But then America goes, yes, we know we bombed this school. That is an unfortunate side effect of what, but we weren't, we were not trying to do it. And so we're actually the good guys. And it's, it always breaks my mind because it does two things. On the one hand I go, it's all unraveling right now in the world. I think we live in a time that is unlike many other times in that there is no one central narrative that anyone controls anymore. And while I'm happy about it, it also terrifies me. Because I don't believe that anyone was like, let's say, telling the truth about their country or central power.

1:28:57But I also don't think the world can survive if everyone believes nothing and nobody's a good guy. And like, do you know what I mean? If every government's bad and everyone is bad and everyone is not doing the right thing, then what incentive do we have to be part of anything? Yeah, even outspoken. I think there's enough people who are supposed to have opinions and we have a platform that are having too much of a good time within the rottenness of the system. So if Nelson Mandela, for example, was having a shitty time, and he says, my people are also having a shitty time. We're all having a shitty time.

1:29:31So if the people with opinions are also like, I can also take a business flight to New York and I have an S class and, and, and, and, those voices get stifled. So I think that's what's happening around the world right now is there's an outlier once in a while, someone who's doing well and has an opinion and can influence those with opinions to also have more opinions. But there are those who don't have a platform, who are not having a good time, who can't say much and do much as well. So I think we have to give balance to that. There's enough information out there for people to make up their own minds.

1:30:00But I think when people are faced with the day-to-day struggles, it's very hard for them to turn on the news and feel sorry for people who are being bombed far away from where they are. What do you think changed? Because when I look back, especially at American musicians and actors even, this is literally how I grew up. I grew up watching the stories about race and class and all that, oftentimes through the lens of American artists. You know And then they were obviously The ones before my time And when I think of like The Nina Simones And the Muhammad Ali's And when I watch those interviews I go damn Because I mean Dave Like we were on the Daily Show But have you ever watched Those interviews and been like Man late night was no Like late night now It's like So tell me Tell me about the time You rode a horse And ate a banana That was a crazy time And then you go back And watch late night From like decades ago And it's like So Mr.

1:30:51Ali You say that America Is inherently racist What do you mean by that And you're like Damn this is late night do you get what i'm saying because those influential people were also not having a good time so when they got a chance to speak they would actually raise up no but they were they were i would argue they were having as good a time as you could be having now maybe i'm wrong no but now like you you're an outlier whereas back then i don't know that you would be an outlier per se yeah i think cointel approach has been very effective you know i mean black people have had so many mass movements and elevations of consciousness and they're always followed by like cataclysmic events of biochemical warfare like crack cocaine hits the streets not long after the Black Panther Party is in the footsteps of Malcolm X, like shifting mental, the consciousness of the people.

1:31:54But then you experience crack cocaine, you experience mass incarceration, you get to a point where kids of my generation in Chicago that are in the working class, so many of them are like three generations of fatherless homes. I mean, everybody's been incarcerated. Millions of men incarcerated. And so many parents addicted to drugs, like passing that down to their children. That becomes, once again, something that we often feel like, we feel ownership of the ways we've been poisoned. And then we put that into our art. We make that our focus we make that our music we we lose sight of uh anything other than the suffering and the struggle that we experience and ascending out of it is kind of seen um only from a material context you know i mean because it's so it's it's so dire the circumstances are so dire yeah yeah that it's like cool get the s class get the first class flight that's it you know just just get out the fucking hood that's that's the only goal you know what i'm saying because we lose we lose the dream of of there not being a hood in that way and then we just want to get out of it just want to get out of it and then you even see like ways in which um the entertainment industry has uh controlled opposition and platformed focused corrosive messaging and uplifted those things very intentionally and it just becomes pervasive I mean like that's the dominant thread of conversation but it doesn't last I think the pendulum swings you know what I'm saying I think we're coming back to a time when for sure things are even when I was on your show 10 years ago talking about talking about palestine like that was a real fucking outlier yeah it was it's not now no and and that's one that's one issue that people often latch on to and you know call us single issue voters or whatever but but what happens in palestine the money that is funding this uh genocide in gaza is very connected to our everyday lives because it affects the money that's not going into schools it affects the money that's not going into health care affects the money that's not going into affordable housing like it's all very connected and things have changed in a way in the past 10 years have the material realities changed no you know saying but i do think that people's consciousness has to like shift before the ability to shift the material realities you know what it's also yeah a thing that i think um people don't recognize a lot is that Don't say racism is good like you normally say in our group chats.

1:34:49Like I normally say. Is the... Is the... I'm a nigga. It just sounds like I'm a nigga. Oh, yeah. I don't even hear it like that. Is the fact that some of the things that people do are like... I don't know. Maybe I won't say this clearly. But we see people. Then we go, people are good. It feels like people are good. you know in the world yeah they're just generally good then when something bad happens it almost seems so unfathomable that it's that you're like no either life just sort of like panned out like that or you are a conspiracy theorist i remember talking to a friend about this when i first came to the u.s long before the daily show long before i was in um i was in los angeles and i was going around doing comedy clubs and nights and i would meet these comedians and remember one night i was at what they call an urban night you know so it's a black comedy night now we're from that's just the nights you know what i mean that night i'm my niggas everywhere so it's all it's all an urban night with your gun and butler going so we're like yo like and and and we had this conversation and he said something that man it really stuck with me he said um he said he said he was talking about like conspiracy theories and not believing and and you know and then he said to me he said man one of the things i wish i just wish that african americans didn't have as many conspiracy theories as they have and there's a black man saying this by the way and then i said to him if anything i i feel like black people should be full conspiracy theorists only especially in America because the amount of times the conspiracy theory has actually been true has been true for black people in America I go I don't understand why you are I'm actually impressed that you're not fully a conspiracy theorist yeah but even that term is to cover up what could be potentially the truth yeah but I'm just saying it's a theory you know it's like oh it's a theory you would love this I actually I actually met someone who worked at the CIA and I asked him the question I said yo So it wasn't me, it was a friend of mine asked it while we were there.

1:37:08He said, how many conspiracy theories are true? And the guy laughed and he said, obviously, I can't say anything to you. But he said, but I will tell you this. Oftentimes at the agency, we would be grateful. This was a really interesting phrase. He said, we would be grateful at how crazy conspiracy theorists were because half the time they were correct. but half the time their conspiracies were so crazy that we never needed to like step in and balance and it was this interesting concept to me where I went like whoa whoa whoa wait so half the things you think are crazy whatever you are whoever you are in your world half the things that you think are crazy are probably true yes and then half the things that you think are true are probably crazy the difficulties we'll just never know yeah that's how I feel about the files, man.

1:38:03It was like, I used to look at some of my friends and some of the online discourse and it'd be like, really guys? A secret cabal of blood-drinking Democrats abusing children globally behind the scenes? Are you serious? And you see the goddamn files and you're like, oh. Deep. Oh yeah, okay. Deep. This was real. Deep. These blood-drinking pedophiles. You couldn't have told me. I was like, I draw the line at that. And it's where you should draw the line. If you think of somebody telling you a story, to believe that is, come on. It's crazy. And more and more people are starting to not question reality.

1:38:52Yeah, but that's what I'm... I don't mean it in a bad way. No, but I like what you're saying. Sorry to cut you off, Dave, but that's what worries me, actually. I know, I hope I articulate this correctly, but I sometimes feel like it is, oh man, what's the word I would use? I sometimes feel like it is safer maybe, or yeah, safe is the only word I could think of for a society to collectively believe in a lie that moves them in the same direction, same direction being the key phrase, than for everyone to just have their own reality. And I hold, it's a paradox in my brain and it's something I struggle with because I do not wish for any of us to quote unquote be living a lie or be living in a fake world.

1:39:44But then at the same time, if everyone believes their own thing and nobody believes anything, I genuinely believe that's when society just disappears as a concept. I mean, if you had a central religion as a central like ideas, if we take away religion being bad or good, but it just goes like, guys, let's believe that we should be nice to each other. Then you go, okay, as opposed to I should be nice to some people or not nice to, I'm saying to your let's be nice to each other, otherwise you'll go to hell. You know, it's like a lie. It is? But it could help people. It actually is a lie because it's accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

1:40:26that's the thing it's not about being nice to other people I don't want to go into this but I just don't want Eugene to go to hell for the wrong reasons I don't want to go into this you don't? go nobly just hold on this man just said go nobly don't press anything we've got more what now after this

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1:42:16What do you think people get the most wrong about you then? Like, because I mean, yeah, I'll throw it out there. I could be wrong about this. But when I see like Vic Mansa There's so many Iterations of you That I've seen over time As you would with any artist In the public eye Well there's so many Different iterations of you I wonder what people Get wrong about you That you see out there Where you're like No that's not me Or that's not how I am anymore Or that's never been me I think people used to think That I was very serious And always wanted to fight somebody You did give off that vibe actually No no no You did give off that vibe He said I did give off that vibe I was one of those No no no I believe that You thought that I was very serious 100 % I'm glad you said that actually Even when I came on your show?

1:42:57Yeah Okay okay No I knew you weren't gonna fight me But I was like In this In the hallway Who was gonna win? I pray to God Nobody bumps this person I pray to God Who was gonna win? Who? If he fought me Come on look at this guy He's from Chicago You from Johannesburg? No my friend Me in Philly? No my friend Not you You're not gonna win No fucking way I think that's probably The biggest thing People got wrong You know one thing One thing I will say About Johannesburg Maybe versus Chicago I don't know if it's the same You'll tell me If we can go head to head Have our cities battle No no no One of the most One of the most important things Johannesburg taught me Growing up with it was Hillbro Alex wherever Is knowing When and how to run Yeah Like fleeing Was never seen as a You know Yeah As a sign of cardliness Yeah people would be like Maybe as a joke But yo Like running was actually a high level skill.

1:43:53If you knew when to run, you were just as good as knowing where to fight. So I don't know if it's the same in Chicago. Yeah, I mean, shit, I ran from the police. I feel like I'm a professional running from the police. No, no, no, not the police. And violence. Okay, okay, okay. I'm talking about like if someone stepped to you, could you run? One on one? Yeah. No. Two on one? Possible. Three on one? Yes. Okay. I'm out. Okay. One on one, somebody steps to me with no weapon, how could I run? Okay, all right. No, I can't. That would be a violation of my moral code. There you go. See, me? So if you're saying...

1:44:25That would be a violation of my moral code. Dying. If they can't have a weapon, you're not gonna die. How do I know? You're just gonna get... What doesn't matter? It doesn't matter. I don't wanna be a surprise ghost. Okay, so you were... So you were... You've never been... Or you were not... Or you've never been like ultra serious wanting to fight all the time? No, no, no. I've always been Gemini, though. So maybe half the time, I could have been like that. Okay, okay. I've always been everything funny to me. All jokes But Also serious In one of the fight Okay no but I like That's balance But people who believe In zodiac signs Are very pragmatic Because they look at you And they go What star sign are you?

1:45:01Like I'm a Scorpio Like yeah yeah It makes sense now And you're like why? Then they tell you What your star sign is Gemini is really like that You see Gemini is like very Polar Very polar I mean Kanye is a Gemini Scorpio? Who And then what about those ones? Yeah I don't know nothing about Scorpios I know about me How many star signs do you know? Taurus. Me. Taurus is my son. Yeah. The Tauruses are stubborn. Yes. I just learned about them when I learned about my son. Okay. You know. Gemini. Gemini is very polar. Okay. Okay. And Cancers. I know Cancer. Okay. No. It's a deadly disease. I know a little bit about Aries.

1:45:38My girl's in Aries. Oh, you know a lot. Aries are fire. Fiery. You know. Look at this guy. You know what I do like about star signs is it comes with a lot of grace. That's what I'm saying. pragmatic yeah like you hear someone you're like what star sign yeah but what I mean by it is like star signs they just they come with a lot of grace so someone will say man this person's stubborn oh that explains it I think is that what you're saying yeah yeah yeah okay okay yeah yeah yeah they allow people to be themselves and to contain all of themselves for sure they almost make you feel like the mistakes the flaws that people have you blame it on yeah you blame it on their nature yeah like the stars and then you look at the shoes that is That is like being a Gemini is definitely a like mental, it's a mental illness at times.

1:46:25You know what I'm saying? Because you're so polar. You feel one thing with complete passion. And the next day you think something entirely different. You know what I mean? One day I could be upset and want to fight people all the time. And the next minute, everything's a joke to me. But I think like my process of coming into a livable experience is to learn not to be a slave to my nature. My nature as a Gemini is very dual. It's a duality. My nature is that way. But to have integrity is to intentionally choose to make decisions that I can rationalize from any side of my personality. And before I wasn't like that.

1:47:10at all like i was i was a slave to my nature you know saying and like my gemini would be like oh i have to say exactly what i think to this person right yeah at the time that i think it i have to tell him i'm gonna slap him in his mouth and he he violated so i am justified you know saying like this is the right thing to do you know yeah it should not only it should be done it will be done it has been done you know what I'm saying and like you know just growing just growing is to come to realize that like although my natural proclivity my inclination as a Gemini is to be this way that I'm not beholden to that like I can have the discipline to not act out my fucking intrusive thoughts at all times as a Gemini you know those are the best ones but they They also get you in a lot of goddamn trouble.

1:48:05They can get you in years of trouble. What are intrusive thoughts? Mine. No, I'm just saying, what are they? Thank you. Mine is to flip this fucking desk. Wait, these are the thoughts you guys are having? Just when he said intrusive thoughts, just in that moment, I was like. Damn. Don't you have intrusive thoughts? Like when you're driving, you're like, if I go like this, what would happen? Like an airport. You got a motherfucker in front of you. You just want to punch him in the fucking head. You see, it's funny. That idea, the first time that came into my head was because you said that. You said this to me more than like 15 years ago You never think of it I had never before you Thought of possibly veering my vehicle into opposing traffic Just to see what happens Yes but I'm saying He is your intrusive thought Actually that's exactly what it is This could be like Fight Club and you're not even real You never think of You know I just realized that right now If I did this thing what would happen I just realized right now You might not be real But it's really the Philly version of him That's your intrusive thought With the African ass He's like young bull Crash your shit young bull Allah whack bar Crash that fucking car Allah whack bar young bull Oh man You know as we When we started this conversation I was wondering why I started gravitating towards your videos And I understood what it was Yeah A little bit now after speaking To you It's You almost Cut a cross From Our generation of thinking Because him and I go into these rabbit holes a lot But obviously we say what we want to say in our way We don't say it the way that you say it But there's two things that you taught me The one thing that you taught me a long time ago And there's something that my daughter taught me the other day Is was giving people grace, one And understanding when to use your privilege Because I've always struggled with that And then I remember when we started doing television Because I started doing television way later than he did And we did a show together And there was this one director that was just a douchebag And I just got angry and angry and angry Because in my head I saw what he was doing as a director As a racist move And I was ready to quit the show And I remember you called me to the side And then you said to me Yo, you must understand one thing They already don't want us here And I was like They, the white people You're like, no Them As a crew They already think there's someone better Who can do this job It's not about race If you walk away You're proving him right but if you stick around you're only going to get better then I was like so it's not about race he was like maybe it might be on the side yeah I always said you never know yeah on the side the tinge of racism oh it's always about race yeah but basically the guy's sitting there going I know someone who could have done this thing better yeah should have even should have done it better and then that never left my mind because I was always ready to act on my intrusive thoughts if someone steps in front of me they're gone and then you gave me that and I was like ah it's using the privilege of knowing that you can do better and you can defeat them by just doing better.

1:51:00And there's another thing that my daughter and I were discussing the other day. It had to do with a place that we booked. And then when we booked the place, they said something can't be done. Until when, after booking the place, I showed up and they said, you can do anything. And then I said, don't you feel bad for the fact that now you can do anything after they said you can't do anything? And she said, Dad, I would feel bad if we turned it down from her offer And I was like, why? She was like, no, it's not just everyone who can do what they like And if I can do what I like because of how you do what you like And still get paid from it Then I would be remiss if I didn't take advantage of the fact that we can do what we like You know the poignant thing about what you're saying, Eugene, there?

1:51:47Yes is that Trev, he told you how to improve the world because you were like, look at this circumstance. There's a better way to handle this. Or just a different way. A different, yes. A more effective way, you would say. And then you, because Trev is driving, and you're like, you know what? What if you just went into oncoming traffic? This is how we were exchanging ideas. It's like Yeah and with your world You are able to use Everything that you've learned Throughout life Throughout your art Throughout your career To carry out these videos You understand the privilege That you have It is the culmination Of Vic Men's 100 % That's what I would call it Like 10 years ago This Vic wouldn't exist But with the travel That you've had The work that you've done The people that you've met It makes whatever you have to say Very pornean Because you've lived it And if I may add to that I don't think you should ever take for granted how de-scrawnifying the message, like how important that is.

1:52:53What is de-scrawnifying? So oftentimes the things you're talking about are delivered by scrawny people that nobody wants to listen to. In dashikis? No, no, you wish it's dashikis. I'm talking about like when he's talking about like anything, Iran, the petrodollar, like race, you know, the carceral state, you name it. A lot of the time, the people who are talking about some of these topics are scrawny geeks that nobody wishes to like you're like no offense but like the messenger you know that's one of the reasons that Nelson Mandela was chosen right is because the ANC he wasn't the most like senior member in the ANC he wasn't like the guy he wasn't even the most outspoken one yeah and then someone saw him speaking Walter yeah it was Walter Walter Sisulu and was like this guy the thing that he's doing and the way he's doing it is the perfect vehicle for our message because people realize i mean it's the same reason rosa parks wasn't the first person who had an issue on the bus yep but she was the first person where civil rights leaders who were running that movement at that time were like she's the perfect person for us to take this forward you you i don't think you should ever take for granted that everything about you just like one it doesn't really exist you know there's no one else like you in if we overlap everything what you know whether it's punk hip-hop the tattoos the chicago race the ghanaian the like you name it you name it there's no one like you doing that so when that vessel presents that video that message and that story someone can't be like yeah but of course you would say this you coming from connecticut do you know what i mean yeah of course it's easy for you to say you know because you you're stuck i feel like that i like what you said about privilege too man i mean i think about privilege a lot man and that like um one has to be like cognizant and conscious of your privileges in order to even have an effective message you know i'm saying in order to have an authentic message because we all have different privileges you know saying we might be oppressed in ways be it for our our race you know i mean we're all black men on this show right now um but we're also all men so we also have a tremendous amount of privilege by being men i mean by being able-bodied men you know i'm saying like there's so many things that go into it i think about that a lot especially having having a white mother and having certain comforts in life that have come along with that and with my father's occupation him having the privilege to be the only one in his family to come to america you know saying like the rest of my family in ghana they live in in pretty in pretty abject poverty you know i mean by an american standard for sure yeah i mean it's by it's far from the bottom of the barrel in their community, but by our standard, not having working restrooms and roofs caving in and working jobs for$50,$60,$70 a month.

1:56:11That's an unfathomable fucking reality. You know what I'm saying? But my dad came to America. He had the privilege to get an education here. and so i'm living as both the the fucking result of of a lot of privilege in the midst of a lot of oppression at the same time yeah you know saying and i think a lot of time no i can see even members of my own family just people close to me that might have have trouble acknowledging their privileges because of the amount of trauma pain and oppression that they feel which is valid but it's like yo without acknowledging our privileges then the conversation is is is only half authentic it's only half real you know it's incomplete you know saying without acknowledging our privileges which is why i do like in this conversation you're doing a lot for me by bringing a renewed lens to class.

1:57:14Because I do think that I get caught up in the hamster wheel of a fixation on race. Even when you were talking, and you were like, something about race. And I was like, everything's about race. You know what I'm saying? Because in a way, like in America - But I argue it is. It also is, yes. We had an episode, just to interject there, we had an episode with Sam Murrell, the comedian, right? It was on this podcast We made a joke about something And I think it was like Jingle bells maybe Or something Just a joke Randomly And then We talked about one thing And then I said to Sam I was like Oh that actually has racist roots Like fully fully And then we laughed And we talked about it And then he said something else And I think we said jingle bells Or whatever it was And then I said Oh that's also racist And he's like What?

1:57:57And I was like No I'm joking I don't know And then he said He said He's like Knowing America It probably is We checked it up after the show It was fully racist It was No, so you are right. Is sort of even to what Dave was saying about conspiracies and all of that. Both things are true at the same time. It is always about race. But. But it might not be. And just that the class conversations is actually the bigger conversation. It's always about class. Where do you put the period on a sentence? It's always about class. Is important. I like that. I feel like when you put the period on a sentence only after race, then oftentimes you're left without a full sentence and you're left without like a clear goal you know i'm saying because if you just fixate on the racial dimensions of things without realizing how they're a front for the actual class struggle that exists this is a lifetime pursuit you'll just be frustrated about racism for the rest of your motherfucking life yeah You basically chase, because what you're doing now is you're chasing the shadow as opposed to the thing that's casting the shadow.

1:59:04And a shadow is real, but it is not the thing that is causing itself. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so that's the difficulty with this is like we want to be in a world. When I look at just like all the great minds, it's often been buried when people talk about their work. But MLK spent like a huge amount of his time speaking about class. People now will make it, oh, equality for all racially. And that's more convenient because that has sort of been addressed, sort of. You know, so people can be like, well, MLK's dream has been achieved. And it's like, no, no, no. But if you go look at what he talked about class-wise, you're like, damn, no, no, no.

1:59:44This guy's rattling the cage. and I think that's why there are politicians today that are experiencing the success that they are I actually think the death of the of the old school politician is that they still think race is the number one cudgel and it isn't Trump didn't win because of race people will say that he did and there's definitely parts of his message that are intertwined in and around race but I argue the man won because of class he appealed to class in a way that few people fully understand And that's why him and Mamdani could be in the same room. And that's why people could say, I voted for Mamdani, but I also voted for Trump.

2:00:22And people are like, wait, how? Yeah, because both of them spoke to class. So the person who's listening goes, no, no, no. I heard what Trump said. He said that I've been left behind. I have been left behind. Yeah, even that phrase, truth to power, because people always think you can only speak truth to power as it comes from a person who's under and then speaking to someone who's above. but someone who's above can speak to someone who's under and speak their truth through their power because that person also has power as well yeah Martin Luther King really became an immense danger when he started talking about a poor people's movement oh yeah that was for sure that's when they assassinate you I mean Chairman Fred Hampton he became that immense danger when he made the Rainbow Coalition combining when he pulled in poor white people the poor white group the young patriots with the Puerto Rican young lords with the Black Panther Party when you shift to a focus on class that doesn't ignore race which is where i think a lot of the liberals lose me is that they want to look at class as if race is not an interconnected intrinsically important dimension of it when when you see people shift to a focus on class it's when they become a real fucking threat to the power structure and martin luther king was i mean he was he was living dangerously yeah like he gets sanitized as being turned the other cheek like just a pacifist but he really wasn't a pacifist he just had a very brilliant mode of combat in my mind was that he understood that by And using nonviolent techniques that he could heighten the contradictions with the cameras on.

2:02:07And he made sure the cameras was on so that you saw them getting beaten down and hosed and bricked and hit with bats. And you saw them not responding with violence so that you had absolutely no question about who was the perpetrator. Yeah. You couldn't edit it and get a snapshot. Yeah. It was crystal clear who was in the wrong. And Martin Luther King made sure of that. And I think a lot of my life I felt like, oh, I must choose between Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. And I'm more Malcolm X because I'm going to punch the white motherfucker back in the face. But really, though, Martin Luther King's methodology, it took so much strength.

2:02:52like it arguably takes more fucking strength to exercise restraint in the face of violence than to respond with violence not that that's the only strategy you know i think those things have to exist concurrently but yeah learning more about martin luther that's why i love that you use him in your newest uh use some of those stories in your newest special because his legacy has been um oh it's been flattened manipulated and flattened like you said into like some fucking disney channel shit yeah you know what i'm saying and but really he was he was super revolutionary what's interesting as well is how much they moved towards each other you know malcolm x is always framed as this like burn it all down person mlk is always framed as like kumbaya let's all hug all the time and if you look at their writings and what they what they shared towards the end of their lives they sort of gravitated towards the other malcolm x was going hey maybe we should speak more and maybe we should be a little softer and mlk was people and maybe mlk was like no maybe maybe we should you know protest maybe we should riot a little bit more maybe we should it is interesting how we find that that middle and it makes me wonder with you like let's talk you know you've got old vic manser where or rather alternate universe vic manser no let's talk about the like the vic manser that people couldn't have like known because social media wasn't what it was, right?

2:04:16Who's this guy? Oh, hip-hop artist, but he's also wants to fight all the time. He's angry, whatever. Now we see you. Like, in your videos, you're laughing. You're peeling that orange. By the way, how do you peel them so efficiently? What type of orange is that? I want to know. AI. No, no, no. No, no, no. I mean this. Can I see your hands? Can I just see your hands? These hands have peeled infinite oranges. No, no, no, no, no. I genuinely want to know. Or like, how do you start the peeling? Because usually I bite the... Do you peel orange? Yeah, no, I bite the top first and then I'm like... Let me tell you something.

2:04:50Then I go in. Because my thumbs... I don't know. I don't trust my... Yo, you make it seem like it's the easiest thing. My man, have you ever tried to start an orange? Yes, you have. You start... I've never seen a video where you go in and you're like, yo, let's talk about the subjugation of... Crap, this. You just peel... Two halves, yeah. So how do you... First, how do you penetrate? I control... Whoa.

2:05:15Whoa. You're definitely not from Mr. Phil. If you're watching this on YouTube, you'll see my hands. Aki. Take it easy, yuck. I got you. I got you. No, but for real, how do you like... I can try to edit. Those are the two questions. Okay. Secondly, how many oranges are on this tree? Infinite. It blooms year round. these are the biggest things that have plagued me about this series. And I'm the psycho for biting. No, I don't think you're crazy at all. Sometimes an orange needs to be bitten. Yeah, then just to open up the gateway. No, no, he's right. He's right. I want to see your orange. Oh, no way it is.

2:05:58Sorry, just a thing. Is, you know when you have a, it used to happen with beer drinkers a lot, but when they have a bottle of beer and then they can't open it. Then they go with their teeth. Yes, it's like what do you, because some people are like, know i have to find a ball opener yeah you know that so if you can roll the motherfucker first and it gets softer somebody told me that because they saw me struggling to open them and they was like yo you need to roll it oh okay so someone had okay yeah but the structural integrity of the orange goes away when it's not killing it it does become it does yeah but what i this is all i was searching for rolled i wanted to know if we've met you as a masterful orange peel like peeler or if you have developed into this man now you've answered my question yeah once I had the tree then I started to learn more about oranges okay what did you learn about oranges actually well just how to peel them like how to roll it I don't know the science of this tree I don't know why this tree blooms year round I genuinely I'm so fascinated but it does though it blooms in all seasons I have no clue why I wish I had a more witty answer what made you do it the first time

2:07:09i was talking about so you know i was talking about south africa low-key it was like right around the time i was talking about south africa near when the south african um the white the white genocide oh yes yes yes uh was taking place and um i had a friend come over to like film something with me in my studio and um and i just had that idea it was no like serendipitous moment but it was right around the time when i was talking of talking about the uh white genocide that didn't have that feel of like or at least me if you'd asked me how you got to it i would have been like whatever was in that box backyard was going down so if you had like chickens there he was going i kill a chicken if i had chickens and i was just like you know i am a voodoo man my grandfather was voodoo ceremony so it would have been a different vibe out of the real azalea banks i pulled a goddamn chicken i said you know what about racism it's like a it's like a chicken's net you gotta rip it i mean you're all of these things are you you're lucky the tree blooms all year round now you'd be like vic we need a video uh it's out of season man you gotta wait for the next just every everything that came together i um uh where do we find you now in the journey like where are you going next what are you what are you up to what are you because now again to go back to how people perceive someone i think there are a lot of people who like see you as that guy now and and i've just learned to accept this you know we've spoken about this is like people meet you where they meet you right yeah and they'll just like know you as they know you yeah so you'll be the orange guy who says the news and then my favorite thing will be like how people describe it when they see you they'll be like oh man the the orange news guy oh he's the he's the you know I've heard everything for myself.

2:08:56My favorite one was they said, he's that, he's that, what did they say? He's that British news nigger from South Africa. Whoever he may be. But when they said that, I was like, that's the greatest description. Yeah, they said the British news nigger from South Africa. Then I went, you said British, but you said South Africa. So I, I love that. I'll take it. Oh, yeah. So, I see it the same way, man. You know what I'm saying? Like having done and continuing to do many things i find that people people might find me in an album cycle they'd be like you know this music i love this people might find me while i'm acting on a tv show yeah and be like oh i like that tv show you know people might find me while i'm doing this and be like man what's up with them oranges do they really grow on a tree uh that was me he just impersonated me god damn no that was the fucking uh that was the flight attendant on the way here Was asking about the Yeah He was like Are they He was like Are you gonna run out On the flight attendant I'm not the only one The flight attendant That was Trevor's worry You said what That was Trevor's worry It was my biggest worry In fact That's when I buy oranges It does not seem like A sustainable I was just like Man I was worried about you No because you're from South Africa That's why Because in South Africa We only get oranges in winter Yeah I was just like It's an orange tree It can't just have oranges All year round This motherfucker just blooms year round You have been gifted my friend You have been blessed I'm working on developing it into a show.

2:10:24I'm working on like also like some scripted TV stuff. And finishing my album right now. So a lot of different things coming. Is your album an opportunity to depart from what you're speaking about? Or does the album give you an opportunity to incorporate what you're speaking about? How do you think about that as an artist? It's a bit of a departure. I mean, it's an album that I already had. Yeah. I mean, like I was making this album and had so much of it before I started doing the Orange Street thing. I honestly started doing that because I didn't have the funding to put the album out the way I wanted to put it out.

2:10:59Oh, damn. I didn't have the distribution. I didn't have a label. And so I was like, what can I do in the meantime, in between time to connect to people, you know what I mean, and to express myself? And I landed there. But in a lot of ways, it's like, it's about family. it's about me coming into fatherhood. There's a lot of African sounds manifested in my own way. So it's not like an overt overtly political album. It's got moments like that, but that's not the heart of it. It's called Mansa Musa Mensa. So it's about my son. As long as beautiful man. Like at its root, you know what I'm saying? But I also, I did this short film that's like marrying the uh the orange tree shit to the narrative scripted thing i was talking about and uh so that's coming out soon we get off here i want to show you guys because i make some yeah that'll be amazing i talk about some things that i think will relate to you nice yo man this has been everything and more yeah i appreciate you guys no man i genuinely can i tell you i i let's say if i if i separate like the human you side of it and the you know the things you do he'll tell you this is like how i am in the world about about the internet in particular i just i i spend an inordinate amount of time worrying that the internet social media slash whatever we want to call it gave birth to something that was beautiful in that it it It democratized a platform.

2:12:32It democratized opinions. It really diffused the power that was once contained by a few. But I think if we're not careful, it can also incentivize everyone to become a few. So everyone's cooking channels look the same. Everyone farms outrage the same. Everyone tries to find craziness the same. And genuinely what I love about what you do is you haven't reduced yourself to a caricature. you you you just you don't seem to be trying to pour fuel on any fire like one of my favorite moments was when you went back in to speak about iran and how people had like misinterpreted you like no no guys let me try and articulate this for you even more clearly and i was like that there is the antithesis of what like the internet is experiencing right now you didn't double down you cut back and you elaborated and i was like this is the most beautiful thing because it opens up space and conversation.

2:13:28So I just want to say to you as a human being living through this, I go like, man, thank you. Thank you for doing that. I appreciate that a lot. Yeah. The Iran, I mean, yeah, the Iran situation too, it was like, I felt like I learned more information talking to people that I respected once I had already spoken. And I tried to make a decision that I think is important for me just as a human being to be like, I'm willing to adjust my perspective as new information comes in that gives me more context and I have more understanding. You know what I mean? Like I have to be. I think so often it's easy to be rigid and be like, well, I already said what I said.

2:14:12And so it is what it is, you know? But that wouldn't be honest. You know what I mean? I think at the end of the day, I'm trying to be real, honest, authentic. And when I learn new information, I want to be able to adjust. Yeah, but even those we hold in the highest esteem, I don't think do that in the most honorable way. So I look at newspapers. The amount of times they print a retraction in the tiniest corner of the newspaper, I go, I'm not saying put it on the front page. but put it where the original story was at least. Just instill in people the idea that you can make a mistake publicly and go like, oh yeah, did I?

2:14:57Yeah, I actually didn't know at the time and I didn't think it because it's not always malicious. That's the main thing is it's not always malicious. And what I found interesting was you didn't put it in the comments. You didn't put it below. I watched a video the other day of, it was like a super viral video where someone was talking about Justin Bieber performing at Coachella. And they were saying, do you know the real reason Justin Bieber played all of his music off of a laptop is because he sold his rights. So he sold all of his publishing and his rights and he can't perform them. So this was a genius move.

2:15:28He plays the YouTube video and then Justin Bieber is able to have his songs, but he can't perform them. He's legally not allowed to perform. And then it was like, no, that's not the thing. Coachella pays a license fee. Anyone can sing any song. That thing's covered. He was doing something artistic. And then when people corrected this viral video, they then in the comments just put a little they left the video up but then they said i should have included the fact that this doesn't actually apply to justin because you can't perform what you want but still it's an interesting thing to think about isn't it i was like what are you doing what are you doing like you are so obsessed with the the view count yeah that you're willing to throw everything else and what i found impressive was you made a video as prominent you got an orange you came out you did the it's not like you were like all right i me clarifying this doesn't deserve this it wasn't like now Vic Mensah's in his bedroom like, hey guys, so I put out this video a while ago and I just want to say I'm sorry.

2:16:24Exactly. Same orange, same tree, same vibe. And he came out and he's like, yo, let me say this. Let me elaborate. Let me tell you what I've learned. That to me, I genuinely mean, I went like, ah, it inspired me. I appreciate it. And I was like, that's what we all need more of in this amorphous place called the internet is seeing people change and evolve. Appreciate In front of us That's incredible man And you shouldn't leave yourself Out of it Because a lot of people I hate what you're about to do Don't do this to me Don't change your eyes When you talk to me like that I see what you're doing Change your eyes What if I retract my upper lip?

2:17:01Now carry on Okay Yeah So A lot of people When confronted by their friend About calling them And the phone ringing A certain way At a certain time His eyes gave him away A lot of people would say You know that's how network works and that's how cause wifi we're in the same place a lot of people will never actually take the phone and dial their friend and put on speaker and hear how many rings there are and have the same said friend on the side acknowledging can I tell you this is a blatant lie that you can I tell you you know what we're gonna do immediately immediately I will say sometimes sometimes I do that though sometimes I try to call the motherfucker at a time and I'm like man I'll just call this nigga with two rings that's why I was saying we're gonna we're gonna hang up my phone's on silent no no no no hang up whoa oh I wanna set yo can you hear me yo yo so we're having a discussion here and I'm not gonna lead you in any direction we're having a discussion about that the the amount of rings people hear or see on WhatsApp versus how many the caller initiates what is the discussion we've been having about this.

2:18:16I'm here with like Kibuka and Eugene.

2:18:20The amount of rings that people see versus oh, is this when I think you've called me and then you've given up straight away but you might have gone 10 you might have gone 10 deep is that what you're saying? Yes, yes. That is exactly what I'm saying because now Kibuka does not believe. No, I didn't say I don't believe. Wait, you said I don't believe. Kibuka doesn't believe that I called him and waited like a shit long amount of time He says he got like two rings on his side Yeah I don't believe Yeah I don't believe that too It can't be trusted But also are you counting ones Are you counting them in the calling phase No no no no I was counting in the ringing phase Okay yeah Because he understands that differentiation as well Dave has no interest in this whatsoever Also Dave is just here blatantly saying I'm a liar who did not want to call him Lars you know what made the matter worse Yes say no thing My attorney over here After the After the ringing And the hanging up Dave called back immediately Immediately And the suspect Did not answer the phone Because I was on a bike Riding back from Pickle So quickly That's funny Who speaks on their phone While riding a bike There's only one person On this call And I'm not that person I would be suspicious About Trevor And anything phone related There we go Thank you I'm hanging up now This has been great man Hey appreciate you guys man What's up man Appreciate y 'all bro Philly You know how we do Man this is the worst thing You could have left us with Amaniga Philly Uchini Amaniga Okay Amaniga

2:20:05Oh man this was dope Thank you Crazy Oh man this was so good What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackl. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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