Who Owns America? Bernie Sanders Says the Quiet Part Out Loud

29:25One candidate generates enormous enthusiasm, pulls off a major upset, but they don't support him. Why is that? And what does this have to do with oligarchy? Meanwhile, at the same time, you have people, and this to me is kind of new. Money always played a role in politics, no question. But you got people like, was it Bill Ackerman or something? Yeah. He says, we are oligarchs, we are billionaires, and we are now going to spend as much money as it takes to defeat Mr. Mondani. Really? That's called democracy? And they're out in the open about it. It's not like he's putting money underneath the tank.

30:05Yeah, yeah, yeah. Front page of the newspaper. So who the hell is, who runs the city? And then what you're really looking at, and I don't want to take this too far a stretch, you got a president of the United States. You know, he gets into sometimes squabbles with Mr. Putin. But the idea of, you know, in Russia, there are elections. You know that? Putin always gets 80, 90 % of the vote. He does very well. Only his people can run for office. so saudi arabia where you remember trump made his very first trip that's where he went to saudi arabia uae these are zillionaires i mean some of the wealthiest people in the world running autocratic governments so what is true in my view is many of the coming back here to the united states many of these big tech guys they don't believe in democracy i mean read what they say it's not just that they want to even support this or that opponent at the end of the day they think democracy is an impediment to their god-given right to make as much money as as they as they want yeah that's what we're looking at right now scary stuff so i can't i can't help but wonder where america goes from here because new york is like the perfect example you know i everyone was shocked at how Mamdani rose.

31:27I mean, his ascendancy was nothing short of spectacular. Andrew Cuomo seems like it's a done deal. The next thing you know, Mamdani has it. Andrew Cuomo is dropping out and then he's not dropping out and then nobody's supporting Mamdani. I won't lie to you. It felt reminiscent and it feels reminiscent of your campaign in 2016. you know 20 20 more like yeah 20 well but but also but like yeah sorry yeah going back but like when i think of no but i think of your campaign where where everyone assumed hillary was winning and people went well this is the next line in the succession this is how it's going to go she was the anointed one the anointed one right this senator from vermont comes along bernie sanders people go oh it's silly summer it happens it'll go exactly the people on the ground start swelling up and the people say i think this bernie guy could be the one but then the democratic party are the ones that stand in the way and and i i then ask a question that i think a lot of people are asking on the ground and that is is the democratic party still the vehicle for liberalism in america well i don't like the word liberalism but i would for progressivism progressivism okay Better word.

32:44And the answer is to be God honest with you. I don't know. I don't know. We are supporting candidates who are running as independents and as progressive Democrats right now. What I will tell you, Trevor, is that around the world, there are similar political situations that there are here in the United States. so centrist parties like the democratic party are in decline in germany in france in the uk right-wing extremist bodies like trump's mega movement are on ascendancy with some exceptions that's the trend and the reason is that all over the world in the global economy working people rural people are feeling left behind while the rich get richer and right-wing extremists like Trump have something to say to them.

33:36Centrist bodies do not. So I think where the democratic leadership is right now is way, way, way out of touch with where working families and the majority of the people are. So either they get replaced, either there is a movement that says, thank you for what you've done, you're gone now. We need a new party that represents working people, or else they hang on so tightly that they force the creation of another party, which is not easy in the United States. It's easier in the UK and other countries. But the current leadership of the Democratic Party, as I mentioned, New York State is a perfect example.

34:14Where there should be enthusiasm and excitement, there is fear that working-class people, that ordinary people are going to get involved and threaten the existence of the leadership here their power when i read about like the history of the world i sometimes worry that this is the natural conclusion right it feels like globalization was the thing and the corporations got rich and you know money gets centralized a few people get everything and then that leads to strife and turmoil that strife and turmoil leads to populism that populism oftentimes if we look at history then leads to some of the worst periods and that's when people like Bernie Sanders actually get listened to that's when that's when people are most likely how do you how do you think how do you think people break through in this moment how do we how do we break through before it's too late like how do we break through before it's world wars and before it's massive recessions and before people are literally scrounging for scratch let me go back I should have said this a moment in response to your good question about the democratic party I think democratic leadership is way out of touch.

35:24The dilemma that we face right now is, I think there's got to be for the moment at least something like a united front between progressives like myself and Democrats in order to defeat Trump. Okay, so we're fighting two fights. We're fighting to either open up the Democratic Party to become a working class party or start a new party, But at the same time, it is absolutely imperative that we keep our eyes on Trump, who is clearly moving this country into an authoritarian society. Okay? So we got two fights on our hands. And that's the political moment that I find myself in. How are they out of touch?

36:07I don't understand that. So let's use the Mamdani example. For me, it seems like a simple one, right? Andrew Cuomo gets trounced. Like he gets trounced in a way where on the night he can go home, he doesn't have to delay anything. Right. generally that's a trouncing in politics to your point in my head in many people's heads you'd go okay it's obvious and this seems like the popular route to go down which is what politics is supposed to be as in like popular of the people the people are choosing what they would like right how do they not see that do they what do they say to you when you're talking to them what do they not see that people see do not these are not dumb people and that's the first oh people don't understand.

36:46They understand everything. These are not dumb people. They have power, and they want to keep their power. And they are what Mamdani has done and what I have done in past presidential election is to threaten that power. So if you're sitting, if your power base is that you can raise a whole lot of money from wealthy people, you go to nice cocktail parties, you walk out with$100 ,000, you hire a consultant, the consultant puts 30-second ads on television, that's your world and somebody else comes along among body or somebody else and mobilizes tens of thousands of people doesn't ask the rich for campaign contributions that is a real threat to your existence okay that is the bottom line and um the pity of it is these folks are not evil people the democratic leaders that i know they are certainly not dumb people but they are more interested in clinging to power than to allow to support a grassroots mobilization which has the potential to transform america they become an impediment to that process you know it's funny when you were saying that i was thinking about the entertainment industry and i look at the shifts that are happening in the entertainment industry they mirror a lot of what you're saying for so long, Hollywood had a centralized idea of who said what and who got to say it.

38:09A few people decided who was in a movie, who was on TV and who got famous. That's right. That's right. And they did this for so long and they squeezed so hard that from the cracks of that little squeeze of theirs, you know, from the crevices of their fist, new media started emerging, new talents, new voices, you know. And so in the world of podcasts, it was the Joe Rogans and the world of streaming. it's like the kai sanats etc and you see this happening everywhere and they have now lost the ability to define and funny enough they've come around so now if you want to promote a movie you have to go on you know a streamer's platform if you want to get somebody pushing your content you have to go on youtube now you have to go so the power is slowly moving in that way to the people but it seems like hollywood sort of understands it i don't know if they'll change but it seems like they understand it.

39:00When you talk to Democrats who are establishment and they go, this is the way it is, is there anything you say to them that convinces them? Is there any moment where you've seen them go, ah, Bernie, you're right? Well, you do see that, actually. You know, polling, they're not oblivious to polls, and what polls show is that people like myself, A, are popular, but more importantly, that the ideas that we are talking about resonate extraordinarily strongly among working people. So I ask you, the United States, the richest country on earth, is the only major country not to guarantee healthcare to all people.

39:41How many Democrats do you think are talking about the need for a Medicare for all? Well, I introduced the bill in the Senate. We got, I think, 15 co-sponsors out of 47. Why would you not? Be prepared to take on the insurance companies and move to a cost-effective, quality health care system, guaranteeing health care to all people. Well, it's the power of the insurance companies. For years, you know, we've been fighting to lower the outrageous cost of prescription drugs. You know what the American people do? They hate the drug companies probably more than anything in the world. They really do. They're getting ripped off every day.

40:16They know it. Have the Democrats? They've done a little bit, in fairness. But if they've gone anywhere near as far as they should. here's something and i'm talking about basic necessities like health care medicine what about education psychologists tell us that zero through four are the most significant years of human development intellectually and emotionally in the richest country on earth don't you think we would have the best child care system in the world you'd hope so well you tell me i don't know if you have any kids or not but no i don't but i have friends who do know i mean it's pretty obvious that it's not it's far from it it's outrageously expensive yeah and the workers themselves get paid you know starvation wages here's something that's again quite remarkable and showing the direction which the country is going you ask me you know because i am going to be 84 you know what the world the changes that I've seen in my life.

41:16When I was a kid, a young man graduated James Madison High School here in Brooklyn, New York. And I went my first year of college to Brooklyn College. Do you know what tuition was back then? Oh, I feel like you're going to shock me. I'm not going to shock you. If it wasn't then or a few years before, it was tuition free. Oh, that shocked me. Does it shock you really? Yeah, that really shocked me. I thought you were going to say like maybe a few thousand dollars No, City University of New York. You just said tuition was free, Bernie. Yeah. That's what I just said. Yes. Are you shocked by that? That's shocking to me that it was free?

41:50Free? Yeah. University of California, one of the great university systems in the world. That's shocking to me. That was, I don't know the exact year, 60 years ago, 70 years ago. It was tuition free. Yeah, you're looking at me like you're in a state of shock here, right? Because at that point, people said, okay, you're working class kids. We want them to get the best education they can. We're a growing nation. We need the best educated workforce. Sure, no big deal. That's what we're going to have. In fact, City College, before it was the city university, was tuition-free for a very, very long time.

42:25And it was one of the great universities in the world. It wasn't some dumping place. In Vermont, we had state colleges that if you were a Vermonter, tuition-free. And again, all over the country. So we have regressed in saying that if some 19-year-old kid goes to college today, doesn't have any money, leave school$50 ,000,$70 ,000 in debt. Go to medical school, come out$500 ,000 in debt. All right, all that I'm saying here is that the entire system broadly defines economic and political. is working phenomenally well for the people on top. It is screwing working class families who are struggling and in many ways are in desperate shape.

43:14Yeah, and what's sad about that is all of the information that comes out, as you said, is oftentimes coming out from media that's attached to those people. Yes. So they'll say the stock market is up. That's right. They'll say GDP is better than ever before. They'll say it's up and to the right. and the weirdest thing for me, for people to understand, and I mean, it took me, it's not like I studied economics. I had to go and read and learn. I was to realize GDP is one of the strangest measures of how well the place is doing because we can be in this room right now. If Elon Musk walks in, the GDP of this room is doing insanely well.

43:50Do you know what I mean? The three of us together. Oh, the three of us together. Are the wealthiest people around. We are the wealthiest people that have ever lived. Elon leaves not so much. Exactly. All of a sudden it goes down. And I think that's what a lot of people don't seem to understand. And I wonder if that is part of the problem is people are being sold the success of the idea of an American corporation or company as if it's their own, but it's not really attached to them. The answer is yes and no. I think that's part of it. Oh, we all can. You work hard, you're going to make the American dream.

44:24So you'll become a billionaire as well. I think people believe that less now than they used to. But here's what I think Trumpism does very well from their perspective. Trump is a demagogue. What does that mean? It means that he is smart enough and he is nobody's fool to recognize that people are hurting. All right? That the system is not working. so if you're in the average person and you can't afford to pay your rent or send your kid to college and you're hurting you want an explanation why is that right it's kind of natural you want to why is the world the way it is everybody really searches for an answer trump has an answer and his answer as a demagogue is the answer the demagogues have always given and that is you place the blame on powerless minorities right in the 30s in germany it was the jews were the cause of mass unemployment and so forth and so on gypsies in america there were problems our schools it was the gay people who were problems it caused the problems uh you know for many years in this country you know if you're a white working class person well the reason you're not making more money as a black is taking your job nothing to it in the uk they blamed people from you know They were like, oh, it's the Polish.

45:50They said it's Pakistan and it's India. It's always moved a generation. Exactly. Yeah. You pick the Jews. They must sit around and say, who do we blame today? Yeah. And it works because people are hurting. And then you have the entire media structure saying, well, it's the fault of the undocumented people. In this country, it's the undocumented now. So we're going to throw them all out. And we're going to make life miserable for them. All right. Thank God. My life is going to improve. That is what not only oligarchy is, but it's what demagogues do, and that is Trumpism in spades. That's what he's doing.

46:28It wasn't only at his inauguration, I was at his State of the Union speech. Guy gets up there, gives one of the longest State of the Union speeches in history. Did he have one word to say about the healthcare crisis in America? No. did he have one word to say about the housing crisis in america no one word to say about the high cost of prescription drugs no one word to say about how college is unaffordable no what did he spend his time thinking about he spent probably 10 minutes on blaming on describing how a trans so whether this is true or not who the hell knows but his description was a transgender athlete in a volleyball game, smashed a ball into a young woman's face and hurt her.

47:16We hurt that, right? One of the great crises is what happened on a volleyball court to one young woman, okay? And the rest was terrible crimes. And they were committed by undocumented people against young women, okay? Because we know, and then the verbiage starts, they're not really human. Trevor, they're really not. They are subhuman people. And it's almost the language. They're poisoning, quote unquote, poisoning the blood of America. These are people who don't share human values. They're savages, I think is the word described. Well, that terminology sound familiar? We've heard it before. When you demonize a person and you make that person less than human, does not tell me what you could do to that person.

48:07And then that is, if you go after those people, that is improving life for everybody else. So that's the big lie. That's what demagoguery is about. That's the move to authoritarianism. And that is what I stay up nights worrying about. You know, when I was reading through the book, one of the things I hope really gets to people is something that oftentimes isn't front page because it's boring, and yet it's front page in everybody's lives. And it's how the consolidation of power comes to cost you at home in your life. And you talk through food, for instance, in America, and how all the meat is basically what, four companies?

48:53Yes. You know what I mean? And I just want you to walk me through that because what you do really well in the book is you break down why this is a problem. Because some people would go, well, Bernie, I don't know what your issue is. It's consolidation. And what it does is it enables a company to work more efficiently. They love that it's more efficient. And it means we can expand our capability and we can get out there and lower prices for all Americans. What's so wrong with only having four major companies that control all the meat in and around America? Well, what's wrong is that in capitalist terms, there is minimal amount of competition.

49:28And if you think these guys are not, you know, working with each other to keep prices artificially high, they are. So what the theory of capitalism is some new upstart comes in, produces the product at a lower rate. People are going to go, forces prices to go down. It's a good theory, and occasionally it works. But right now, whether it's big tech or major industry after major industry, that is not the case. They are controlled by large conglomerates who can control prices to a large degree and how they treat their workers. It's not just that. It's also terrifying for diseases. Because, you know, if you look at like some of the biggest diseases that have gone through the U.S., like in the food, it's oftentimes because it goes through one plant.

50:21It goes through one company. You know, it's not one area that gets affected. Like the baby food was an example of that. I remember when there was a baby food shortage, I read through the story and I was like, what is going on here? How can there be a baby food shortage in the United States? Come to find out, there's basically almost like one company that's running the baby food. And if their plant gets one contamination, every single mother in the United States now doesn't get baby food. And then you can't bring more baby food into the country because they've lobbied correctly to make it so that you can't import baby food.

50:54it it feels like a like this this it's every time you read about these things it feels like it's a never-ending story of uh impossible mountains to climb and then i i found myself thinking i was like where does bernie get the energy genuinely i was like you're 83 years old and not once have i ever seen you be like well that's all folks i guess we tried i genuinely know what i know from you like on a personal level like what what keeps you hoping and then what keeps you pushing what What do you see that many people don't when they give up? I will tell you what I see. And it's part of this fighting oligarchy tour, some of which I did with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Greg Gazzar from Texas, others.

51:41I am extraordinarily fortunate as someone who has been to every state in this country. And I say this not to be rhetorical or to be overly romantic here, but I have met so many unbelievably wonderful people.

52:00And I have worked with local unions where you have blacks and whites and Latinos standing together taking on corporate greed. I have talked to young people who have a vision for this country that is so different than the one up today, which is based on greed and selfishness. They want a very different America. So talking to a lot of young people, talking to working people, it really does inspire me. uh i you know i was you know if you go to a rally as we had i describe it in the book if you go to a rural area in california fulsome california ever hear fulsome california i've never heard of fulsome california no all right how i had heard of fulsome many of your viewers will have heard of it that's where johnny uh johnny cash did a song fulsome blues so a prison there's a prison big prison there that's all i'd heard of fulsome it's a rural area controlled by Republicans in the Congress.

53:04We had 30 ,000 people coming out. It was an insane thing. I mean, people was all over the place. We went to LA, there were 36 ,000 people. Denver, 34 ,000 or something like that. And you see that energy of people saying, you know what? We want real change. How can you not walk away from that and say, whoa, man, we can do it. We can do it. And then I talked to kids and that also inspires me. So the advantage that I have as somebody who's been to every state in the country and I've had the opportunity to talk to, you know, in this particular tour, we've been now to over 20 states. We did 35 events.

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55:31You said something a while ago that has stuck with me for years actually and it was in and around one of the elections you were talking about how people should campaign and you said and I'll paraphrase you forgive me but you said something to the effect of we need to stop focusing so much on basically selling it as a race issue and selling it more as a race issue. a living wage issue as a survivability issue as a and i remember at the time some people didn't get what you were saying people people like no but this but this is a race thing and and it's funny because it took me back to you know some of the things that happened in and around the civil rights movement whether it was dr martin luther king jr etc who said basically that oh poor doesn't know a color you know poor do you think that that's been some of the problem in in in the way politics especially in the democratic party it feels like a lot of the democrats who go out there will spend a lot of time being like black people come on you you're good you're black and and latinos latinos but but they don't seem to go into the heart of what the issues that's not an accident okay so you have what's his name uh i can't remember his name now uh to answer your question what you're talking about is identity politics okay so we are so proud that for the first time we have a judge from this state who is black latino asian you name it really we have a woman this we have a gay that that is look all of us want to see um parts of our society have good representation in congress and we're making some progress donald trump has surrounding him a whole lot of women there are right-wing women governors all over this country, right?

57:21Are we all very proud? Oh, man, thank God we got a woman in politics who does not believe in a woman's right to control her own body, who is terrible to workers and so on, but we're proud that she's a woman. The issue is, and this is what I meant earlier, Democrats have retreated from class issues, from economic issues, from a desire to take on big money, to, oh, isn't it wonderful we have a woman here, and we have a gay person here, and we have a black person here and a Latino person over there. And King, you remember, now, when you hear how old I am, I was in Washington for the March on Washington, King's March on Washington.

57:58I heard Dr. King speak. You know what that march was called? It was called, if my memory is correct, Jobs and Freedom. Jobs and Freedom. Jobs actually went first. King understood that, exactly as you described it. What good? And this is what he said. He said, what does it matter if a restaurant, which was segregated, is opened up if you don't have enough money to afford the damn hamburger? Right? Yeah. All right? So you got open housing. That's great. You can't afford the rent. So for a myriad of reasons, some of which we have discussed, the Democrats have chosen to say, isn't it great? We have a woman this, we have a gay that, black that, rather than saying, hey, we got an economy that works for all of us, not just the few.

58:46That all of our people are earning a living wage. All of our people have health care. All of our kids, regardless of color, are able to get a good quality education. That together we're taking on climate change and creating jobs to save the planet for all of us. So to some degree, look, it goes without saying. There has been discrimination, as everybody knows, bigotry all over the place. And we've got to fight that every day. We've got to open up the process to all of our people. But it's not just that somebody is a woman candidate or a gay candidate. What do they stand for? What do you think people misunderstand about class and classism?

59:24You know, I ask this because I remember one day reading a book. I forget who the author was, but it was a really poignant line. And it basically said, I cannot wait for America to get over racism because racism is the first stage and then they will discover that classism is what they've been fighting all along good that's right because today when we talk about the working class of america who do you think we're talking about disproportionately disproportionately i mean there are millions and millions and millions of whites in the american working class disproportionately it's black it's latino um and women as a matter of fact um the class issue though you see is if you're the head of a large corporation, the likelihood is you have a good education.

1:00:10Do you have gay friends? Maybe your wife or your girlfriend has had an abortion, right? You're tolerant on all of those issues. You don't stay up nights worrying about black people getting a job. But what do you worry about? What you worry about is that you may have to start paying your fair share of taxes, that you may have to start paying your workers a living wage, and you will fight that. So I find that many of these quote-unquote great liberal corporate types, we struggle with them to make sure that they respect unions or they allow unions to be formed, et cetera. But at the end of the day, in my view, Trevor, if we're going to transform America, which is the question on everybody's mind, how do we do it?

1:00:48It has to be a mass movement of people. It has to be a growth in the trade union movement. And that is the way forward, and that's what we're working on. Do you think democratic socialism is the dirty word that it once was in America today? No, it's actually quite popular among young people. And I think despite the fact that no one quite knows what it means. But I mean, I think what increasingly people do know is that you have countries, for example, in Scandinavia, you get Norway, Denmark, Sweden. If you go to those countries, the most right-wing politician would not for a minute suggest that healthcare is not a human right.

1:01:26Yeah, yeah. A lot of the time, their right-wing politics is more about the politics of other, but it doesn't question the classist ideals that the country holds. It doesn't question what they call their social welfare system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They believe that's the bedrock. Right, and nobody questions that. You're right. And the right-wing will play off against immigrants and so forth. But in those countries, health care is a human right. Higher education is often free. Child care is often high quality, free. Workers earn quite good wages. Unions are much stronger than they are in the United States.

1:01:57And I think a lot of young people, especially, are looking around and saying, how does that happen? You go to Germany, you graduate college, you're not in debt. And in this country, you know, you're$50 ,000,$80 ,000 in debt. So I think without even getting into the essence of what socialism means, which to me means democracy, by the way, not just the right to vote every two or four years, but having a say on the job. Wouldn't life be a lot better if you weren't just a cog in the machine? and we're seeing by the way one of the nice things we are seeing in america in vermont pretty strong about worker-owned companies where workers themselves own the companies select their own leadership and what the all of the studies show is that people feel much better about their job you know the absenteeism is less productivity is up people are good it's our company pretty good could they could there ever be laws written to sort of entrench those types of ideas.

1:02:51And I know even saying that right now sounds crazy to most people, but the other day, I was thinking about sports and I was going, I know you're an avid basketball player. Avid might be too strong, but I played a lot of basketball. I've seen you shoot, Bernie. I've seen you shoot. You drain them. I remember when it was in the primaries, you would go to the gyms beforehand and you were just like, yeah. I found myself thinking about how sports and everyone who watches sports seems to understand in a basic concept of fairness. And this is what I mean. Shaquille O 'Neal comes into the NBA. The man is completely dominant.

1:03:26You throw him the ball, he puts it in the hoop. You throw him the ball, he puts it in the hoop. You can't do anything to him. He stands under that rim and he puts the ball in the hoop. And then they change the rules of the game. They say, you know what? You can't stand in the paint in this little section for longer than, what is it? Three seconds, I think it is. Yeah. And they go, you have to keep moving. Why? Because otherwise Shaq can just do this forever and it's not fair. And I look at this in every sport. In fact, golf, you know, golf might be my favorite sport. Not, I don't play it. I don't like playing it, but I love the rules of golf because golf, contrary to who people, like the people who play it, is one of the most egalitarian fair sports that has ever been created.

1:04:07It's the only sport where you can come in as a terrible golfer and you can beat the best golfer in the world because the handicap system acknowledges that your position coming into the game should be accounted for in order to get you to a level playing field as somebody else. Like that always blows my mind. Do you know what I mean? And I wonder if politics can get to that place. Is it a crazy thought that I have? No, it is not a crazy. That you could write laws that say people should own a piece of companies if they work in it or... Look, it is not a crazy idea and there are countries around the world to some degree already doing that.

1:04:41Look, is it a crazy idea? 1948, right? A few years ago. in great britain a labor government said health care 1948 health care is a human right i don't care if you're rich you're poor you're young or old you go to the doctor you don't take out your wallet in the early 70s canada said the same thing all over the world that could be a law signed tomorrow by the president of the united and think trevor for a moment what that would mean we got a half a million people go bankrupt every year because of medical bills people don't die because people die because they don't get to a doctor on time. Do you know how transformative that would mean if people go to the doctor when they wanted to, if they weren't worried about going to a hospital and not coming out bankrupt?

1:05:27A lot of people have cancer. Getting cancer treatment today, they're going to go bankrupt. Do you know that? That's a fact. Yeah. Okay. What would that mean? If we made sure that every parent in America knew that his or her kids would be able to get all the education they wanted, great schools, What would that mean? Just do that. Forget anything else. Not to mention having wages which were livable. Is this a radical idea? It is not a radical idea. Okay. But what the system tells you, and that's what drives me crazy, and I try to get into it in the book. The system tells you this is communist. This is impossible to do.

1:06:07Why? What's crazy is not that everybody has health care. It's crazy that Elon Musk owns more wealth than the bottom 52 % of households. That's crazy. That's how we got to rethink things. How crazy is it to think of the possibility that another political party is what will help America? Because you know what it's like from the inside. Is it absolutely out there? No, it's not. It may well happen. The two major parties are deeply, deeply flawed and in many ways out of touch with ordinary people. Republican parties become right-wing extremists. Democratic Party is corporatist tinkering around the edges, and there's a hunger for real change.

1:06:49If the Democratic Party can't deliver, I think there is a real possibility that there will be a third party. The problem is that in this country, to start a third party, being on the ballot in 50 states, to overcome all of the regulations, anti-third party efforts in states is very difficult. but it's certainly a possibility. You don't think it's impossible? No, it is not impossible by any means. It could happen. It could happen. So when you look at the Democratic Party today, what would you change if you could change something tomorrow? What would you say to all of your colleagues who have been with you where they say, Bernie, we are on your side, but we just don't?

1:07:29What's the one thing you would change? Well, what I would make it clear is that we are prepared to take on powerful special interest in the corporate world and the oligarchs. And that means a strong progressive tax system, which says to Mr. Musk and to the corporate world that they're going to have to start paying their fair share of taxes. Okay, that's number one. And by the way, widely popular. People understand the need for that. You need campaign finance reform. If you want to run for office. We need public funding of elections and ending these super PACs Citizens United. You need health care for all, educational opportunities.

1:08:14Let's pause and go back on that one. That's a really interesting idea. Public funding for elections. Let's talk about, let's get into that. Let's break it down. Why is that so important? What do you think it provides us? it provides people who don't have a lot of money and who are standing up for the working class to run for office and to get elected under the present circumstance you want to run for governor i'm going to run for governor i have a super pack behind me that's prepared to give me 50 100 million dollars i will beat you nine times out of ten yeah okay but if the the laws are that in order to get on the ballot, I need to have at least X thousands of small contributions, right?

1:08:58And if I do that, I will get public funding for my elections. I can only spend a certain amount. That's the rule. I will beat you. In other words, it's just an equal playing field. If I can demonstrate that I have strength, can get on the ballot. It's like salary caps in a way. Yeah, right. That's right. Exactly. That's what they do in the Major League Baseball, right? Yeah, Major League Baseball, basketball, football in the U.K. So the Yankees can't have 10 times more money than the Red Sox, right? You want to beat me? Good. Let's do it. Fair fight. $10 million each, that's it. It's unfair if I have$100 million because I will always beat you.

1:09:40Do you worry, though, that those types of systems are limited by how well the government is running at that time? And this is what I mean. And I love that idea and I've always been pro it. But then sometimes I go, oh man, if the people running have to get their campaigns funded by the government, and then the government is in the hands of somebody like a Donald Trump, who then pulls every lever as we've seen. I mean, like Donald Trump has made me think a president is way more powerful than we were ever told they were. You know, like when Biden was in power, when Obama was in power, they always said, oh, there's only so much a president can do.

1:10:15And then Trump goes, no, no, no. There's everything a president can do. This man has spare keys that open doors I didn't even know existed. And so I wonder now, in that system, do you ever worry that then it means the government is in control of who can get into a race? How do we find the balance? Well, look, there's always manipulation and illegal activity. But everything being equal, and it exists. It exists here in New York City. You have public funding of elections. It exists in other states. Not in a whole lot, but it does exist. Bottom line is, if you can demonstrate, I mean, each state and community will do it differently.

1:10:52But if you can demonstrate, you have a certain amount of support by getting X numbers of small contributions. So you're not a flake, hey, give me$9 million. I'd like to welcome the mayor of New York City. You've got to show support. I think that can be administered fairly. And I think that's the direction we've got to go. Public funding. The next one you were going to say was? Oh, well, I mean, it essentially make the American people know that our goal is a vibrant democracy, making it easier for people to vote, not harder, and making it clear to people that government can act in ways to improve their lives.

1:11:28So it's what we would call a progressive agenda, whether it's health care, education, a fair tax system, you know, dealing with many of the crises that we face, climate change, etc. But what I think people don't see is an agenda that they can nod their heads to and say, yeah, that makes sense to me. Yeah. I want to support candidates who will move us in that direction. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. Feeling short on smiles? Does your frown need to be turned upside down? We got the perfect dose of comedy. 30 minutes of scrubs. Zach Braff, Donald Faison, Sarah Chalk, and the rest of the gang at Sacred Heart are back for a brand new season.

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1:13:04One of the things that people always use against you is they'll say, well, Bernie, you say all these things, but, you know, your bill doesn't get support. Or Bernie, you say this, but you can't bring the Democrats along. And I was wondering about this the other day because we have these blips in these moments where some of the most progressive politicians come out and they always bring up your name. you know so whether it was AOC or now you have Mamdani they'll say oh Bernie inspired me and I'm now doing this because of Bernie and it made me wonder to borrow from basketball is like when you came into the game were you trying to be Michael Jordan who wins all the rings or do you think you were trying to be like Allen Iverson who changes how the game is perceived a lot more more iverson um look what i have always believed is it's not a question of great leaders it's a question it's a question of large numbers of people participating at the grassroots level and trevor that is in fact how change always takes place right it's not one person it's the leaders follow the people when the if you had millions of people saying you know what you're running for office, you damn well better give me healthcare as a human right, and I want that in the first month of your presidency.

1:14:19You know what millions of people say? You'll have it. If people are dormant and not active, they won't. So our job is to create that kind of movement around an agenda that speaks to the needs of working class people and an agenda that is really prepared to take on the oligarchs. You know, I was wondering about, when I was looking through your history, and I see all these pictures of you at rallies, at gatherings, like throughout time, you know, being arrested, you name it. There's one thought that came to my head. I was like, man, I wonder if part of the problem and not the only problem, but just like one of the problems that, you know, progressive politics has in a way is that progressives are very distracted.

1:14:58And what I mean by that is if I look at, you know, when I do comedy shows around the country and I go to what people call a red state, I mean, to be honest with you, I've seen states have everyone in them but they'll go red state i'll find oftentimes people are more conservative they they go to church they're in like tight-knit communities they're they're in groups that bring them together around ideas and oftentimes those ideas then spill into politics or they overlap somewhere and you know and it feels like progressives have less and less of that they're watching their own tv they're listening to their own music there's no more big gatherings no one's going to church and i wonder how much of that you think affects good movements.

1:15:35I think you're right. There was a time, well, let me just tell you what we're trying to, what I'm trying to do in my own state. We're a small state. We only have 630 ,000 people. I have had, and we pay for this out of campaign funds, I think a dozen events. You know what They are foul shooting contests, and we give away free basketballs. Okay? And we've given away, I don't know, well over 1 ,000 basketballs. Good basketballs, I should say. Why do I do that? Well, I want kids to play ball and be active, right? Boys and girls. But you know what else we do? When we do those events, the whole community often comes out.

1:16:20So there'll be 100, 200 people coming out into town, right? And people getting together. we have had now two, we're going to do this more often we had a walk in Morrisville, Vermont small town do you know how many people took a walk a couple of mile walk on a beautiful rail trail 600 people 600 people just went out for a nice walk we had some music, we had some discussion went out for a walk we do dances I'm a United States senator that sponsors dances and we have hundreds of people coming out dancing. Why do I do all these things? They're nonpolitical. There's no political, no partisanship, no nothing.

1:17:04It is to bring people together in a time when we desperately need community. And what worries me very much, we didn't even get into it, and it's a huge issue, is AI and robotics. and some of these guys are almost prepared to replace humanity if you like and i worry very much that at this particular moment for so many reasons we need each other we need each other we got to come together and when we come together you know what you talk to people and again you know i go to most of the rallies we've had i've been in conservative areas people understand the healthcare crisis and they understand the education crisis and they understand the importance of us being there for each other yeah so you know what i've never understood when you talk about the ai and robotics thing is i don't understand if i'm maybe too stupid to get it or if the people who run these corporations have a different idea of what the world would be because i don't understand and the end goal.

1:18:11They want to build a factory full of robots, and the robots will do the work. The robots will pack the boxes, and then a robot will deliver the thing. And then a robot will be cleaning a house, and then a robot will be reading an email, a robot will be responding to that email. And then an AI will be advertising, and then an AI will be responding to a social media post. And then I go like, well, if all of this is just like a loop of the machines, when are people getting the money to buy your product that's one of the issues do you know what i mean when are people actually involved in the equation i often use and to be honest with you it's an issue that needs an enormous amount of study and i haven't had the time to get into it as deeply as i should but this is what is pretty clear to me uh number one uh robotics and artificial intelligence are going to replace millions and millions of workers in this country now the contra argument is well bernie you're just a luddite you know yeah the blacksmith went out of business right but you had an automobile mechanic replacing him right it's an evolution that's the way it is i could be wrong i don't think so no it's funny you say that because we had um mustafa suleiman on who uh found a deep mind one of the first ais that you know beat um the champion at AlphaGo and AlphaFold for the proteins.

1:19:34He said that on the podcast. He said, I don't know why everyone's lying about this. There will be a mass displacement of jobs. Now, so that's number one. And that's kind of easily understood. A robot is going to do the job in a factory, not a worker. You want a young person and you want an entry-level job. AI is there and you're not going to get that job. That I think we can understand. What are even the greater threats of AI? Again, something easily understood is that AI requires an enormous amount of energy, electricity, and water. You're seeing these data centers being fought in community after community.

1:20:19People's electric bills are going to go up for the privilege of losing their jobs. What that does to the environment is, and a lot of young people are conscious about that. Then you got the other issue. You asked me why. And it's not just your point is you're not going to have anybody making money to buy the products. Yeah, I don't get why they're doing it. That's a good point. But I worry even more about human action. I'll give you an example. My office is in the Dirksen office building in the Senate. And it just happened to me the other day. I go down to the cafeteria every now and then, and it's quite a good cafeteria.

1:20:59And the people behind the cash registers are really nice people. And I enjoy seeing them. I know them. I've known them for years. Well, guess what? What do you think is happening? They're being replaced. You got it. Cashless registers. You got it. And you know what? I miss that. I know their families. Yeah. You know, a woman there has been there for years. Her grandson died. I heard about that. That's a human interaction. I used I used to in Burlington Airport. I used to drive out, say hello to the person, pay my fee and all that stuff. What does it mean really deeply? You go to a restaurant. A robot comes up to you and says, you know, what's your order?

1:21:35Thank you. Gets cooked well, comes back. What do we lose without having that human interaction?

1:21:44Is that something we should be thinking about? So you go to a nursing home and you'll have robots turning you over, changing a bed. Is that the same as having a smiling face and another human being there talking to you? So I worry very much. And these guys, like Musk and Altman and all these guys, that's not their things. They are not what I call terribly sociable people. They are into it, the point you raised, efficiency. Yeah, it's all about efficiency. All right, great. It reminds me very much of that well-known saying, the operation was a success. Unfortunately, the patient died. You can have the most efficient operation in the world, but humans will become more and more alienated and more and more in pain.

1:22:33And already in America, we have a major mental health crisis. Everybody knows that kids are struggling. COVID was part of that, but it's more than that. so the goal is not just economics is how do you create a human society not easy but those are the questions we got to ask yeah i think in many ways it it oftentimes for me means we've forgotten the purpose of something you know like i i remember watching you in one of the debates this was when i was at the daily show we'd watch all of it obviously but i remember turning to my team this is when i was first in america and i said how does anyone know what's real or not because we had a fact checker in the building but i remember going what is the point of this and they said well so that american people can watch and i said yes but one politician can stand up there say whatever the number they want and if you're at home you don't know which number is right or not there's no you know what i mean i was like what is the purpose of a debate and then you extend that further and i go business is an example even when people talk about capitalism i say oh capital i go but yes if you go back and even read it what was its purpose all right you know good now you're asking a deep question.

1:23:37Yeah. All right. So you start off with, what is the goal of human life? Now you're getting pretty deep, right? Exactly. All right. Is it to make, I mean, for the trumps of the world, you can lie, you can cheat and you steal. And the goal is money and power, right? That's what it is. Money and power. That's what these oligarchs love. I don't know that most people are there. I mean, people want to be comfortable, but I think people want to live long, happy, and productive lives. Now, what the hell does that mean? But that's what I kind of think, but that's the kind of discussion that we have. Do you want this ultra efficient society, which by the way, will make the musks of the world even richer than they are right now and cost working people their jobs?

1:24:23Is that really? Who determined that that's the goal? Really? You know? Yeah, we've made it the only measure that defines how people are successful. Exactly. So you have this insanity, which drives me crazy, and I mention it in the book, is you're a billionaire. You made your money no matter how you made it. Maybe you stole it, corrupt, whatever it may be, or you made it honestly. And you are a wonderful human being. And you are, think about this, a kindergarten teacher making, you've been a teacher for 30 years. You're making$50 ,000 a year. You know what you are? In the Trump world, you're a loser.

1:24:57Damn. Imagine spending 30 years working with kids. You're making$50 ,000. Meanwhile, you've enriched the lives probably of hundreds and hundreds of children, right? Yeah. I think that's important. Yeah. You know, it's funny you say that. I remember talking to someone who was pro-crypto. And remember when NFTs were big? They were touted as the next new thing. Oh, NFT this. And it was little monkeys. And everyone was, do you have a monkey? I have a monkey. And everyone was like running around. And I was talking to somebody about NFTs. And I said, you know what? I actually don't think NFTs are terrible.

1:25:26but it's interesting that you'll have that idea for digital art but you won't have it for everything else in life because I always thought it would be great if teachers had NFTs like why shouldn't teachers get a tiny fraction from every child that goes on to do something in their lives because they've invested in you they've gone on to do something shouldn't they get some sort of it's it's I always think it's crazy to what you just said how many teachers go through their lives impacting i wouldn't be here without my teachers and then i go like who are they where are they why do we not think about those people and giving back but then i'm more than willing to pay a subscription to an app or to a service and you know to jeff bezos and amazon prime amazon prime i'll go like yeah of course i should pay him but if you said to me trevor pay your teacher subscription i'd be like i don't know that that seems a bit crazy but it shouldn't be but now you're back to very basic questions.

1:26:18I mean, really deep stuff. Who does more important work? Some guy who gets up four o 'clock in the morning, looks at the stock market, sees what's going on in Japan, starts selling and trading stuff. You can make$5 million in a day, right? Doing all that crap. Or somebody who is a primary care doctor who's out on the countryside helping you know keep young kids healthy and alive yeah we have got to this gets back to a value system it's in the midst of everything else yeah the value system is backward teachers do other teachers primary care doctors you know these are some of the most important people in our country society stops functioning without them of course it does yeah they enrich us so we gotta you know there's so much to rethink, but that's the kind of debate and discussion that we need to have, which is hardly ever having.

1:27:14And I'm glad to have the opportunity to at least raise some of these issues with you. Before I let you go, there's one thing I wanted to ask you because I think it's really important. Bernie Sanders, the man, was once Bernie Sanders, the boy. And when I look at the images of you and I've gone back and seen footage of you on a kid's show talking about these ideas and these ideals and see you trying to inspire young people. I'd love for you to talk to young men who are disillusioned, young men out there who are isolated, young men who feel like the whole system has failed them and they're angry and they feel like nothing works.

1:27:53What would you say to them that isn't just a platitude? Because some people would just say to them like, oh, be your best self and do your thing. What would you say to them that they could do today in their communities and in their systems to try and make the world better because they feel so angry about what they're not getting. People have a right to be angry. The system is broken. Just one, let me throw out my umpteenth fact here. Everything being equal, the younger generation will have a lower standard of living than their parents. Damn. Buy their own home if they're lucky at a later age than their parents.

1:28:28People have a right to be angry. Young people have a right to be angry. Nothing wrong with being angry. but know who you're taking your anger out on. Be smart. Okay? Okay, just don't lash out at anybody and everybody. And also understand what makes you happy and what makes you feeling fulfilled. And my personal experience is that, and I always got to fight it. If I isolate myself, I'm not out with people. Sometimes you got to force, oh God, do I really? You probably do that, right? Do I got to do the show today? Oh, please. Give me an excuse, Bob. Write me a note, right? I mean, it happens to everybody.

1:29:09But ultimately, when you're out there on the playing field doing what you do and you're with it, at the end of the day, we are human beings. I need you. You know what? You need me. We need each other. Yeah. That's the bloody world. And each of us sitting back looking at the bloody computer all day long and AI and all that stuff, I ain't going to do it, I don't think. I'm not anti-technology. But, you know, we got to work together to figure out what makes us feel better as human beings. That's what I would say. Yeah. You know, to that last point, I was talking to my younger brother about this. Obviously, we play video games.

1:29:48I've loved it my whole life. And my brother said to me, do you think video games is the problem for young men? They stay at a video game screen all day. And I said, no. You know what? I find the differences, funny enough, to your point. it's the it's the way the money has started to work back in the day you bought a video game you owned the video game you played the video game and it was done now they give you the video game for free and then they loop you in and they start draining your money and they start draining your money and you see kids playing fortnight you see kids playing call of duty and they just keep draining that money slowly and they keep you hooked in an addictive cycle and the worst thing it's i'm so glad you brought up the point about walking together going to community spaces and listening to music shooting basketballs together is because that's the thing they rob you of they've made it so that you cannot afford to be part of a community and if we don't find ways to get back to the idea of a park in brooklyn the idea of like a you know a little rec center the idea of a basketball court that's free for people to go and play together and look i played when i was a kid I did play a lot of basketball.

1:30:56You know where I played? Aha, I got you. You got me. I did. I admit it. I played, actually, I was on a very good team. We won the Borough Championship. We played after school in an after school program, a city of New York after school. You know what you cost? Nothing. Yeah. All right? Right now, you want your kids to be a basketball player, you know what you do? You know, it's all kind of private thing, cost a thousand bucks a season or more or whatever. Every bloody thing is commercialized. Yes. Everything. Yeah. And that's what we've got to take on. Well, Bernie, thank you for spending your time with us.

1:31:30I appreciate you. And let me just say this. Thank you for what you do. You allow your listeners and your viewers the opportunity to have here a serious discussion about serious issues. So keep up the great work and thanks for what you're doing. Thank you so much.

1:31:50What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jess Hackle Rebecca Chain is our producer Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown Random Other Stuff by Ryan Harduth Thank you so much for listening Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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