Andy Haldane: The Jobs Crisis & How to Rebuild UK Skills | What We Don't Know

28:26And having spent many, many hours and days and weeks, months doing that, I began to become slightly better at that active listening. harvesting, harvesting stories from people about what really mattered to their lives that were otherwise lost, because these were largely people without voice, unless you gave them voice. And even if you did, unless you listened very actively and didn't fill the space with your own verbiage, you would miss the point. And the single most important reason why now and again I've been able to spot an issue six months, 12 months, 18 months ahead of time is because it was there, hiding in plain sight, in the conversations, in the pubs, on the high streets, in the community centres.

29:26Unless you put yourself in that space and refine your way of thinking to enable you to listen to what's really being said, the stories that are being offered up, you will miss that. And that's why, as a country, we missed Brexit, among many other things, right? It was there in the pubs, there in the high streets. We weren't listening hard enough. We didn't listen well.

29:51Matt Brittin:We, the sort of central bankers, the metropolitan elite, the media, what do you mean? I think it's right across the... I know very, very few leaders in any walk of life, Matt, who do this well, because you only do it well by practicing. I mean, why did, let's take an example. Let's take Barack Obama. Most would say, justifiably, a towering speaker, a brilliant orator, right? Why did Barack Obama learn his trade? Community foundations in the United States, active listening at the local level. that's how he had the instinct the nose, the sixth sense for what was being said and out of that out of that can come a real sense of what needs fixing what's the single most of the long list of things that need fixing what's the single most important thing for people's lives to make it better and that's the beauty and that is the power of listening well or in my case slightly less poorly than would have been the case 20 years ago.

31:03Matt Brittin:That's fascinating. So I'm in danger of embracing you, which would be awkward because we're too, you know, We nurture the world. Come on. I might have to ring my bell if you do that. My first rule of leadership is listen. And I think it's partly because I'm an extrovert, not an introvert. So I have to talk to understand what I think. And if I don't have that as my first rule to stop and listen, I think I get in my own way. And so I totally agree with you. I love the imagery. You're sort of listening and hearing that there's this mountain that needs to be addressed. And then you're starting to conceive of how you might address that ahead of time.

31:39Matt Brittin:And that's an incredibly unusual talent, I think. Can we take you into those crisis moments at the Bank of England? And as you were talking about leaders and listening, it occurred to me that you work with Mark Carney, who's a leader we saw at the Bank of England, very much like central casting governor of the Bank of England, very sort of straight, clear communicator. But now he's leading Canada with apparently humour and energy and joy and strength that we didn't necessarily see there. So tell us a bit about what you saw in Mark Carney and that sort of transition from somebody who was working closely with him.

32:22Yeah, well, Well, I mean, I had the good fortune, it was good fortune, to work pretty closely with four or five governors. The first I worked most closely with actually was when I was a boy, was Eddie George. He was the governor, several governors ago, and Eddie brought a distinct leadership style. um you know he could be uh quite a presence um but bilaterally was fantastic

32:57Matt Brittin:um avuncular uh one-to-one very friendly but in amazing in the public arena how did you come across well he had a um he had a fairly avuncular external presence uh it was a pretty demanding internal leader, to put it charitably. But you got him, you know, and I was fortunate,

33:22bilaterally, and he was the wise grandfather, right? I remember sitting down. He wasn't long into the role. He wasn't long into being governor, although at the time he'd been there for 30-odd years. And just me and he, I think we're going to see Gordon Brown as chancellor at the time. He said, you know what, Andy? He said, I shouldn't have been surprised about this governor job. So I've worked at the Bank of England for 30-odd years, but I've been really surprised. He said, what I've been most surprised about is I'm never Eddie anymore. I'm always the governor, 24-7. He said, I should have known that, really, but it's really struck me that I'm never myself.

34:01I can't be myself now.

34:05Matt Brittin:Very interesting. What was most interesting, actually, was the next bit. Then he said, so the lesson I take from that is, unless you really, really, two reallys, want to be the Government Bank of England, you really, really shouldn't be. And I reckon that's the single best piece of career I've ever had. You know, it's nice to think, let's keep on climbing the greasy pole to the very top. but careful what you wish for few of those for whom that really suits it may feel like the right thing to do but for many it's not the right thing to do so he brought that Mervyn King, the governor after that I worked very closely with Mervyn academic background deep intellect first principle solutions and I mentioned that in a way as my orientation as well, brought real rigor to the role and of course lived through much of that crisis time.

35:12I mean, truth be told, you know, we're all playing when that crisis broke, almost no one had a crisis in their lived experience. That's we all were playing catch up at the time. It's true across not just central economists, but political leaders, business leaders,

35:31Matt Brittin:Exactly. Exactly. And then Mark, who in some ways was a bit of a blend of the two, but with a much more political, small p political overlay. What do you mean by that? Well, if you take what is a deeply political issue like Scottish independence or Brexit, both of which fell under Mark's watch. I think I can think of some governors who remain nameless who in that situation would have said that's too political for us as a central bank we are apolitical we are neutral we are independents if we want to preserve our independence we say no comment when asked about Brexit when asked about independence Marx's explanation was the opposite of that that as a part of being a public servant it was the bank's job to opine on the economic consequences of both Scottish independence and Brexit.

36:36He wasn't thanked for his troubles in either case, but had the political savvy to want to make that case, because the alternative was probably an unviable position for us. And we've seen that blend of economics and social policy and politics shining through as Mark ascended to his Prime Minister role.

37:00Matt Brittin:You could see the Mark Carney Canada leader in the Mark Carney government of the Bank of England, absolutely. Yes. Yes. I mean, just think the morning after the Brexit vote, who was doing the televised address to calm the nation? it wasn't David Cameron it wasn't George Osborne it was Mark Carney so in some ways I'm not sure if that was Mark auditioning for the big job but anyway he's now got the big job in Canada and you know godspeed to him because that's quite a challenge yeah and then am I right in thinking you also worked with Rachel Reeves well Rachel she's a lot younger than me we overlapped at the bank I didn't nature her well at the bank, but got to nature her fairly well after she had left.

37:52So, yeah, we overlapped Rachel and I, yeah.

37:54Matt Brittin:Yeah. And so you must have, over the 32 years, seen lots of people kind of go through that organization and go on to do all sorts of different things. Not all chancellors and prime ministers. No. But then also, at some point, you come to the realization, having been through multiple crises, you said the last 15 years you were learning a bit less. So tell us a bit more about that and how you thought about your own progression. Just repeat that last point, Matt. Yeah, you said in the last sort of 15 years in the bank, you were learning a bit less. You went on your cycling tour and you were listening, which is great.

38:25Matt Brittin:But you'd seen a load of crises. So how did you think about your own personal development? One of the things our audience is really interested in is how you think about careers and what you do over time. Well, I mean, there is a risk. I mean, because central banking is quite four-cornered, and actually you aren't encouraged to stray beyond the four corners. You mean you're in a box? You're in a box. You know, the bank does a small number of big things, like selling interest rates, which is what I did in the last 10 years of my career, making sure the financial system doesn't fall over, which I've done in the previous 10 years.

39:03But, you know, those being a small number of big things, You weren't actively discouraged, but it would have been unusual to opine on things such as inequality or even the climate crisis until Mark turned up or issues around industrial strategy. but those were all issues that i felt were crucial for we as the central bank not to necessarily dictate policy on but to have line of sight on of course there were crucial environmental factors for us doing our day job so spent an increasing amount of my time strain beyond the four corners And in fairness, my bosses at the time, the various governors that I mentioned, were good enough to give me license to do that.

40:03Matt Brittin:To throw the frisbee from time to time. To throw the frisbee. And I was used by at least two or probably all of them in a slightly outriding capacity. So if I was the person, not whose job it was, but it took it upon themselves to look around corners, to think about what not the issues are of today, but what they will be in six, 12, 18 months' time, and indeed to perhaps even suggest some solutions to them. I always had the lag between me saying things in a speech and it being adopted or not by a governor as between six and 18 months. and that was the outriding role that I was very happy to play.

40:45It wasn't, you know, it was always backed up by having spent, in my case, at least six months, sometimes longer, I'm a slow learner, thinking about it deeply with a group of people, every which way, and convincing myself I thought it through to the stage where I would light on a solution that was the right solution given the problem set. So this wasn't spinning the wheel and hoping for the best. This was born of having set aside a serious amount of time with some serious people to try and problem solve. So towards the second half of my time at the bank, I definitely strayed from the path of righteousness on a whole manner of issues about which I make no apologies whatsoever.

41:35doing more of what I mentioned at the very beginning, actually, which is trying to fuse together disciplines. So I've drawn very, I'm an economist by background, I've drawn very extensively on all the social sciences, and indeed, most of the natural sciences as well, in trying to make sense of the world. It's also meant working on a cross-sectoral basis. So dabbling into the world of charity or academia or business for solutions and for insights about what might be done. One of the things I'm most pleased I did ever was in the teeth of that financial crisis in 2008, 2009, when, let's be honest, economists like me were in the doghouse.

42:25Back to dogs, are we? and rightly so it wasn't just our fault but certainly to a significant extent our fault and that was the moment when um i set up pro-bent economics which is a charity charged with using economist expertise to assess the social impact of charitable activity and that in some ways was an act of redemption for having ruined the world. I mean, not personally, but collectively as a profession. It was our way of seeking remorse or showing that we could do some good if we applied our minds to different sets of problems. And in some ways, my decision to leave the bank, ultimately, because I wasn't loving it, I'll always love the bank deeply and passionately.

43:21You can't not if you've been somewhere for 32 years. It's a long time. But because we're still mountain climbing. And central banks do not contain the right tools to trade to tackle the mountains, the biggest mountains we now face, social, economic and environmental. Thank you, Andy. You're a busy man. You've already listed a number of things you're currently involved with. And for as long as I can remember, you've had a sort of plural career. You've had lots of different compartments. You've had alongside that, of course, family life. You do a lot of public speaking, a lot of media work. How have you learned to live sustainably when you obviously have this passion and drive that makes you embrace these opportunities, throw yourself up the mountain?

44:11How do you make that okay from the point of view of holding body and soul together? Maybe you haven't, Hayatun. Well, tell us. It's really important when people see public figures who just seem to be astonishingly good at doing the things they do to also understand there's complexity to that and things that we need to do as leaders to help make that possible. Yeah. Well, I think in my case, what certainly helped hugely is the very diversity you mentioned. So the fact that you are seeking insights, thoughts, reflections, ideas from as eclectic a range of arenas and people as possible is what keeps it interesting and what keeps me going, to be honest.

45:07So that's rewarding in itself. But at the same time, there's an hours in the day problem. And, you know, I've seen you be doing a meeting with ministers in the morning and doing a day job in between and then going off to do after dinner speeches. Actually, just at a stamina level, how have you found that? How have you found that manageable, made it more manageable? Well, I mean, there's times when that is demanding. But I'm not the only person on the planet to have a demanding job. I mean, in some ways, the more demanding jobs, you know, are those where, you know, people are getting out of bed fearful about whether they'll earn enough to feed their families or to sustain their lives.

45:57And I've been very fortunate in having jobs that haven't meant that that's been a particular concern. I've also been very fortunate in having jobs that have given me a degree of intellectual freedom. Yeah. To look under different stones and to pursue areas of interest. And that is energy providing. Yeah. Can you exhaust yourself? Yes. Have I exhausted myself on occasions? Absolutely. Yeah. And so taking some time to replenish, whether that's with friends or family, is really important. I tell myself, you know, this is the year when I return to playing sport and playing musical instruments. And maybe that one year that New Year's resolution will come true.

46:48So, you know, I think it's been a real privilege to be able to roam around. Take the opposite. during COVID, you know, COVID crushed all of us. Yeah.

47:05But in so many ways and at so many levels. But I hadn't fully clocked how much of a crusher on creativity and energy it had been for me. And not having the stimulus of other people to talk to or different experiences. We know quite a lot about the creative process now and what stimulates it. And different people and different environments and different sounds and different smells are crucial to nurturing the creative process. Starved of that sensory experience, you are starved not just of creativity but of energy. Yeah. And that, for me, is the lesson. I was lucky to have that full sensory experience throughout much of my career.

47:56And that gave me energy and a whole degree of creativity. And that can sustain. An interesting counterpoint to what drains you as an introvert. But I just also want to get to another topic, which is something you're associated with a lot, which is leveling up, as we used to call it. Opening up opportunity across the UK, we might use now as an alternative phrase. So we work together a bit on that as well. And I know that it's something you are personally very deeply passionate about. And within that, the topic of skills is a key area of focus. So if you had free reign, what policy prescription would you write to make sure that we continue to have high quality jobs across the UK in this very complex time?

48:41And also the skills that we need to deliver against that. what would be the the things that you would focus in on if you had free reign yeah heaven forbid um and it's great to work together with you on that and i certainly got a huge amount from you as part of of that we're going to edit that bit out andy so keep going you know you know applause you know i um um i've learned greatly from both of you and you both know that. If I was offered just a single thing to get right, it absolutely would be around the people bit. Sounds obvious in a way, isn't it? But often overlooked. We're so busy, you know, thinking about projects.

49:29I'm not a gin project. I'm all for projects, right? But ultimately, even projects stand up for on people and their skills. So what do you mean by this, Andy? What in practice is that distinction referring to? Well, take an area that you both know infinitely more than me about, which is innovation technology. Why does technology success succeed or fail? Ultimately, it's its application through people and by people. And that's true of everything I've ever come across. And yet we sit here with having underinvested in our people and their skills. over, I would say, at least a generation, if not half a century.

50:15What are the diagnostics on that? Well, they include the fact that we have approaching 10 million people who are economically inactive, the larger number of whom aren't even seeking work or further training. Add to that another 10 to 15 million who do not have the skills they need to be as productive as work as they could and should be. massive skills gap that is getting worse over time because our schools and skills system is not fit, not even close to being fit, for 21st century purpose. So that's our mountain. So how do we actually haul ourselves up that mountain? Yeah. Well, it starts with the reimagining of both of those systems, schools and skills.

51:10It has to include schools because many young people are lost to the world of work before they even reach the world of work. In other words, in school. That's why we've got approaching 1 million 16, 24-year-olds who are economically inactive, othered by, out of the system. I mean, think of the losses that imposes on those individuals, on their families, on their communities, and our economy of having that number of people locked out of the system, most likely, in some cases, on a lifelong basis. That is a failing in our school system, a failing in our skill system. And the solution to it, I forgot about the solution, is a complete reimagining of the school curriculum so that people have built in from the earliest of years a work readiness and an understanding of work.

52:17Business itself needs to be part of that solution by building careers advice and work experience in from the earliest of years. Everyone, everyone should be guaranteed a pathway through to apprenticeship, degree apprenticeship or a degree. That should come as a matter of right that you have that pathway and you get to choose which pathway you will be on. That will require a new social contract between government, education providers and business. It will require a reimagining of what we mean by the curriculum, not just what we teach, but how we choose to teach it. It will require a rethinking by business of pathways into employment.

53:13So much good would come from that reimagining in a way that would, you know, growth is built. Obsession with growth right now, but it's built from the bottom up. Yeah. Growth starts with the individual and putting them on the opportunity escalator that currently too many are being lost from. So if I had one thing, it's a big thing. It's a system re-engineering problem. It's orbiting that different planet I mentioned earlier on. The system's been broken for at least a generation. Given the wave of AI, this system will become even more dysfunctional unless there is that reimagining and reframing of the system.

54:06So we can hear your intensity and the energy you have for this topic. And so it's fantastic that you are right at that intersection between the actors that will need to be part of that system transformation with your role in BCCI, your role in Sheffield and your interfaces in policy. So we're looking forward to seeing how that long sounding mountain can be conquered. It's really important for all of us, I think, that we do make more progress. I only have my little quickfire questions left. Matt, what did you want to cover before we get to those?

54:40Matt Brittin:Just briefly, Andy. So people out there listening to you, seeing you frame that problem, leaders today and aspiring leaders tomorrow, if there's one thing you'd ask them to do as a result of that diagnosis and your deep thinking on this, what would it be very crisply for today's leaders and tomorrow's leaders to make a difference on that? Well, I mean, my one point on that would be leadership is a team sport. We can, and more to the point, need all to be leaders. We place too heavy a burden on the shoulders of our political leaders. And arguably, it's a burden that is too heavy for them to carry right now for a variety of reasons.

55:26That burden needs sharing. all those moments of great transition and transformation in our societies and economies over time the burden of leadership has been shared equally across public private and civil society sectors not to forget academia so i would say that now is the time for business to step up and act as well as talk about what is needed. Now is the time for civil society to speak with a common collective voice and act on the back of it. And now is the time for academia or learning, institutions in many various forms, to do the self-same, to share the burden and to create that fusion across sectors, which, as I say, I think is a wellspring of transformation.

56:19Thank you. Amazing, Andy. we've covered so many really critical topics. You've been very generous in your sharing of career stories and insights that I'm sure will have been really interesting to our audience. Just to round things off with a little light relief. We've got a speed round coming up.

56:44So I am going to turn into ruthless, you know, time management master here and ring a bell if your answers go on too long. I can see the bell. The bell physically exists. Yes. Wow. So just to signal how serious we are about this. So a kind of a sentence answer would be ideal or a couple of words if it's that simple. So we'll start with the fact that you go on this tour of the country. You've been on this tour of the country previously. You're embarking on another one through the Chambers of Commerce. For people who are sort of stuck in their metropolitan elite bubble or golden triangle-centric bubble, where should they go and visit to get more of a sense of what's happening around other parts of the UK?

57:26Well, you know, I'm a grizzled northerner. So I would say head north and walk around. Be specific. The north is a big place. Give us one or two. Well, go to my hometown of Sunderland. Sunderland. Great. And which has been a city that has been at best flatlining for the whole of my working life. but where there's just in the air a sense that the corner has been turned. Excellent. Thank you. Next question. I told you. Ruthless. When you've had a really tough day and the world is grinding you down, you've spent too much time with all these people you don't know, having to get to know them and spend energy, what piece of music would cheer you up, lift your spirits?

58:20Yeah. So almost any music will. because I'm quite eclectic on that front. And indeed, this is not one sentence, is it? No. I'm not playing by the rules. One track. The one track would be Ready Night in Soho by the Pogues. Excellent. Wasn't expecting that. Anything by the Pogues. Hey, hey. I'll start ringing my bell in a minute. Behave yourself, Matt. I'll do a quick round with you later if you want. You scumbag, you maggot. What's the most important economic theory or concept that everybody should understand but probably doesn't? Am I giving you one? The theory of the second best, which says that in a world that is already with failure and distortion, sometimes adding another distortion can make the world better rather than worse.

59:17Wow, that's deep. I have to come back to that. What's your most embarrassing moment as a leader? What experience makes your toes curl just thinking about it? As a leader? Well, I mean, okay, we'll be generous. Share, as long as it's not oversharing. An experience that's been particularly... Embarrassing, humiliating, yes. Well, I mean, humbling. I get humbled all the time and I'm very grateful for my humbling. I think giving a speech to the Occupy movement during the global financial crisis was not embarrassing, but certainly a humbling experience to have that firsthand. Did you get fruit thrown at you?

1:00:09Not physically, but metaphorically, absolutely. And I would say with hindsight, rightly so. What do you hope people say about you when you're not in the room? What do I hate? What do you hope? Hope. I'm more positive than that.

1:00:28I would hope that I'd say that I was approachable. Approachable. Great. And easy to chat to. Easy to chat to. I hope that's what they'd say. Well, we've certainly found that. What book or resource do you recommend to others who want to develop themselves as leaders? Develop themselves as leaders? Well, without naming a specific book, I think there's a huge amount to be had by reading fiction rather than just fact. Name one fiction book that you think is sort of worth a read for anybody. History of the World in 10 and a Half Chapters by Julian Barnes is my favourite author. Excellent. That's almost a fusion of fact and fiction.

1:01:13And much of life is a fusion of fact and fiction. I'm going to ring my bell in a minute, Andy. It's a great answer. It's an act of imagination, right? Failure of imagination. How do you stimulate your imagination? Social, science, fiction is what I do for a living. Lovely. Of all the things you've done, and you've done a lot as we've discussed, what has given you the deepest satisfaction or pride? I would say setting up the charity Pro Bono Economics. Brilliant. And this podcast is called What We Don't Know. So what do you know now that you wished you'd known earlier? Oh, that it's possible, have a modest your background to change the world on its axis.

1:02:04if you pick your moment and if you carry out your patient preparation for that moment. What a perfect place to end. Thank you so much, Andy Holden. You've been fantastic. Thank you for sharing what you know.

1:02:15Matt Brittin:Great to speak to you both. Thanks, Andy. So we had so much that we know now. Dogs and Frisbees, fruit and veg, hearing to perceive a mountain, cycling around the country to cure your introversion and the history of every Bank of England governor in the last 30 years. What a wealth of new insights. Yeah, it was a metaphor and content-rich discussion for sure, which is what you expect with Andy. He's so knowledgeable and so passionate about what he does. That really came across, isn't it? This is personal for him. Yeah, but I think one of the reasons he's been so effective in his career is that ability to deeply think about complicated topics, but then get them across in a way that means something and matters to people and I was really struck by he was doing that dynamically as we were talking as well like the most important job he had was working in a fruit and veg store and you can see how that equipped him as an economist to look for things that were simple enough to make work.

1:03:15Yeah that's right so these are metaphors with meaning which is really important sometimes you kind of get led by the words. I was also really struck by some of the comments he made about things that are sort of societal level issues that he has personally tried to engage with or been impacted by. So, for example, this idea that there's psychological scarring from these series of crises within business, within universities, within individuals, within policymakers. When he says it like that, it sounds so obvious, but I don't necessarily think it's something that we think about as much. And of course, his comments on listening and listening being an area that so many leaders fall down on.

1:03:58I thought, you know, probably with both of us that resonated.

1:04:00Matt Brittin:Yeah, I mean, I really vividly remember he talked about Brexit and how it was a sort of surprise for the sort of leadership class and for many, many people. And as a result of that surprise, we organised some focus groups with Brexit voters and could go and listen to them. And I realised that they've been telling us this all the time. We just hadn't been hearing it. And that was what he was saying, you know, actively listening and really understanding what was going on. Super important. And I think also you mentioned the point about scar tissue and living through those sort of crises. In this world we're in now, what worries me, it's so complex and it's so uncertain.

1:04:39Matt Brittin:The risk is you sit on your hands. And actually, I think the way you find how to go forward is by trying different things and experimenting and learning what's working and what's not working. And that's a real risk for the moment. And then the other thing I think that I could see both of us really reacting to was his assessment of the skills issue facing the country and the scale of that and the amount of systemic change that's needed to move us forward again. Yeah, and some people talk about system level change and you kind of go, it's a bit of a cop out. But you can see that he is thinking really, really seriously and practically and engaging in how to get that kind intersection between public policy, between the education system, between business, between civil society.

1:05:27That's, as he explained to us, where he hangs out. I thought it was quite a wise comment as well, that we risk actually having unrealistic expectations about what political leaders can do. He used the phrase, we're putting too much of a burden on their shoulders. And we often talk about, oh, the failure of political leadership. I think he sort of flipped that a bit and said, hang on a minute, are your expectations realistic? So I thought it was quite an interesting provocation that I'm going to go and reflect on, definitely.

1:05:57Matt Brittin:Yeah, I think, I mean, my final thought would be it was a real rallying call for all of us who are leaders or aspiring to be leaders to rise to the moment. And I think what he was asking us was get connected between public sector, private sector, civil society, different types of people from different types of background. the way we kind of innovate and find a route out of this moment is through that kind of creativity, the human creativity and the skills that we need to do that. So I think inspiring and using the kind of metaphors he does, he makes it seem so clear what we need to do. And that's one of the things which I think we know now is that there's some clarity that can help us move forward.

1:06:40Absolutely. And my final nugget from our conversation with Andy Haldane is that the best careers advice he ever had is that the best... My final nugget from our conversation with Andy Haldane is that the best careers advice that he ever received was think really hard about whether you want to progress into the top job and don't do it unless you're absolutely convinced that you want it.

1:07:05Matt Brittin:You really, really want it. the two reallys. Absolutely. He's the spice girl of this podcast, isn't he? Fantastic. So thank you for joining us and join us again. And of course, we love hearing from you and your questions. So do send us a note on our socials or at whatwedontknowatboxlight.io. See you soon. Thanks for joining.

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