Former WPP Boss on Return to Office Backlash and Doing the Right Thing

25:36We say to people, make sure you have a successor. If you have a successor, you can get promoted. If you don't have a successor, everyone says, I'd like to promote Matt, but there's no one to take over. I mean, it's never going to happen. Whereas you go, oh, I can promote this person. Matt's going to get a new job. So don't be insecure about your succession. View it positively. In a way, I was both well prepared, but nothing can prepare you for taking on this job when you never know what's going to happen.

26:03Matt Brittin:And a couple of words you've used in describing it, you know, you sort of said a bit, you know, it's quite a lonely job because suddenly, you know, everything's on you and all of those shareholder, board, staff, customer relationships are on you. were there some sort of rituals or ways of working that that we wouldn't know but that helped you to cope with that you said you know needing to project confidence when you didn't always have it managing that complicated global business how did you sort of cope I mean it's just helping I tend to stay on top of my inbox right you know and just use my inbox to make sure I was dealing with the things that came through the door I would try as much as I could to talk to and spend time with people inside the business and clients and they that's hard because there's just so many people actually one of the joys of covert was suddenly realizing i could communicate with thousands of people using video we went from sending emails to doing you know video based town halls and things done very quickly and i do them at home and that actually helped a lot trying to you know talk to people in the lift reply to people quickly i think i think getting back to people quickly is a very important discipline you know if people send you an email and you take 24 48 72 hours to respond they you know their conclusion is you don't actually really care about what it is that they're saying that must be tough though because you had you know thousands of clients who might want to get in touch with you a hundred thousand employees who might get in touch with you could have spent the whole time doing email i did spend most of my life doing emails basically um i remember sitting in conferences so answering emails running like am i actually doing my email or listening to the person speaking so i tended to like do my emails while watching television at night i'm quite good at doing two things at the same time i've realized probably i'm better at doing two things at the same time than i am doing one thing at the same time so watching tv and doing emails is okay until i asked my wife what was going on in the program.

28:00You'd tell me off and not paying attention. I do think that's a good discipline, but electronic communication can't replace in-person communication. And, you know, the challenge in any job is balancing, you know, that famous matrix, the important and the urgent. You spend all your time on the email, you deal with the urgent, you don't deal with the important as well. So you have to be able to abstract yourself enough, understand, you know, what's important. I just want to come to a slight tangential, but I'm interested in the fact that we have so many of the sort of visible CEOs appear to be extroverts.

28:36What do you think are the advantages of being an introvert as a CEO? I mean, I'm not that totally introverted. I mean, I do like public stages. I'm quite happy to talk to people. And were you always happy on a public stage or did that come over time? Oh no, that definitely came with experience. Just, just learning by doing. experience. Classically, an introvert sort of gets their energy or reboots energy by solo time,

28:58Matt Brittin:and an extrovert needs to, like me, talk to understand what they think and be surrounded by people the whole time, which annoys introvert types. I remember Jeremy Bourne was saying to me, Jeremy hated speaking in public, but was one of the world's best, one of advertising's best public speakers, but he was always very well prepared. And I think you learn, if you know your topic and you know what you're talking about, generally you can say things that are interesting enough to people did you invest in trying to build out some of the areas that maybe your predecessor was better known for or did you come into the job thinking this is me and i'm just going to do it as me and you know i'll get better over time in any case honestly once i started i i really didn't worry about martin you don't have time to think about it it was like a total it would have been a total distraction so i just did what i wanted to do i mean one of the great things about WPP is it's an amazing company with amazing people and clients and partnerships and we have relationships the world's biggest media companies I was lucky enough to fortunate enough to you know interview Elon Musk in Cannes or Shonda Rhimes or Jensen Wang and you know these people you build relationships with.

30:09Matt Brittin:Shame you didn't make a podcast out of all of those. Well I do you don't need the competition. It's very generous of you. But what a privilege to be able to meet and talk to people like that. And I remember you interviewing Elon Musk and it was, I think, just before he started to be so influential in the world of politics. So how do you approach something like that? And what did you learn from those interactions? Are you trying to get show notes and tips from Mark? Our PR people told me in no way should I ever do it. Don't do it. Yeah. They had a complete heart attack. I just thought he's someone that we should listen to.

30:39Matt Brittin:Yeah. And I spent a long time preparing. I listened to, actually hadn't done that many interviews by that stage. I listened to all of the interviews he'd done. And I spent a bit of time with him over the years. I just kind of asked him the questions I would want to know the answer to, to be honest. But I was quite well prepared, I would say. You have to be well prepared to get good insights out of people. What was your biggest insight that you took away personally from that? I think he has a vision for what drives actions that people don't necessarily understand. So why did he put Starlink into space?

31:17Not because he wanted to build a set of communications challenges, but because he wanted to build reusable spaceships. And why did he want reusable spaceships? Because he wanted to fly to Mars. Why did he want to go to Mars? Because he wanted to have a second colony for human life so we could prolong existence. So it's kind of interesting, the sort of vision of someone to think, actually, I want to sort of prolong human existence by going to Mars.

31:40Matt Brittin:Oh, and I'm going to build communication satellites that means, you know, and that is what you get on the West Coast, isn't it? People with big visions about big thinking, thinking in big ways that solve both big and small problems. So going back to kind of Mark, the CEO, you started to digitize communication in COVID and video. but as you said there's no substitute to showing up and you had people all around the world so you have to balance the travel yeah and then also you also had to set the tone on returning to office which i know you were sort of at the leading edge of in some ways a bit controversial tell us a bit about how you thought about where to show up and also how to get people to balance that sort of showing up versus remote yeah i sort of had this view that if you have people that work for you and they don't see you once a year they're sending you like a dividend check or a paycheck like they most people should try you should see or try and see most people once a year now WP had a race in 100 countries that's actually impractical yeah but one way or another you can see them in conferences events and people can fly in and you can do things to try and see most of your senior team in person more more than once a year so that's what I tried to do COVID your first thought was COVID was a blessing oh my god I don't have to travel anymore yes I'm stuck at home but actually we all found out that things work much better than we could ever have manager i mean you and i had conversations at the time matt about are we going to send people home and i think i think we should both be proud of that actually both our company we sent people home 10 days two weeks before yeah sort of the official countries mandate and i think that helped a lot whether things should have gone on in that way as long as i think a totally different question but we learned that we could communicate on video with people in very in very different in very different ways.

33:25I do think you have to use all of the channels. I mean, very open. I don't want to be very accessible to the press. I always want to, you know, I try to see all the journalists in person when I can. I think it's much harder for someone to write something rude about you when they've met you. So try and meet them. I'll write that one down. Try and meet them, you know, hiding away. The press don't write things necessarily generally because they make them up or they don't like you. They write them because they're news. So having, being accessible and available would always lead to better coverage than pretending that things are not going to.

33:57I remember my first, actually this is a funny story, he said my first ever TV interview, I did a bit of sort of media training for this, was CNBC, Andrew Ross-Walkin on the beach in Cannes. And I sort of got my schedule a bit messed up. I turned up wearing shorts and a kind of polo shirt, no socks. And Chris, our PR person, looked at me and I didn't know what he was saying. You know we're going to do this CNBC.

34:23Matt Brittin:that's fine. And apparently he thought whether or not he would lend me his trousers or not, decided not to lend me his trousers. So I appeared on CNBC. And when you're in Cannes, it's completely normal to wear shorts, although my view on shorts has changed since that day. So I have here in every like trading, and it's two o 'clock, which is like peak 7am trading outlook in New York. I'm sitting on a beach in Cannes in my shorts. And his first three questions were like with that company in crisis what's it like and i'm sitting there in my shorts anyway that's a formative moment it was a very formative moment it makes me happy that we're having a closing conversation with a male ceo yeah i just say yes well that's quite often people ask about that it's good that your fashion is some something that moves markets i guess so look i think again my view on that changed a lot actually over a period of time i think when covid first happened i think i thought we could be much more flexible but over time i realized that wpps are creative company.

35:20I think that people thrive off working with each other and that makes the work better. And I actually felt for middle management and to some extent senior managers who are struggling to get people back into the office that needed them there because they didn't have support from the leadership. I have to say not all of my executive committee agreed, which made it harder. What was the mandate you wanted to set? Well, I wanted people to be in the office at least three days a week but i realized if i said three days a week they'd only be in there two days a week so i said four days a week and then we asked them to be in there this was because of the property department at least two fridays so that we could spread people out over the week so it was a question like the property department put these two fridays in which i think was the thing that wound most people up and i had a petition i think 20 000 people signed the petition i said to jamie diamond so i got more people signed my petition than signed your petition i don't think by the way all of it i know for a fact that all those 20 000 did not work for wpp because there was no method to check so i have no idea what percent of our people signed this petition and i understand why people you know to some extent found life easier but i think that it was the right thing to do for the business and actually i think it's the right thing to do for people i mean i think at a time when talk a lot about mental health and people spending time together i think it's good for people, frankly, to get out and spend time together and be together.

36:44I think one thing I miss not being CEO, actually, is spending all that time I do with people. And so, you know, honestly, maybe people think it's sort of paternalistic to say what's good for other people. I get it. Some people move the long way away. Some people have childcare. But the policy we have is very flexible. You know, we were perfectly willing. If people want to take their kids to school, I understand I have kids. We have to care for a sick parent. I understand that happened. you know we have people have sick parents so i think we did try to be we wanted to say we want to be a predominantly office-based culture and that's right now what's interesting is i mean you have to hand it to david solomon and jamie darman who had one policy very quickly and stuck with it and you look at other organizations you know take facebook i read instagram what people in five days a week four years ago they're saying no one needs to come in ever it was definitely the right thing to do it definitely did not make me popular with lots of people but then you realize being co is

37:40Matt Brittin:not a popularity contest when you get a petition from 20 of your workforce saying you're wrong do you sit there and go oh my god have a dark night of the soul i need to reverse the decision or do you sort of go no i made it for the right decisions i'm going to stick stick with what do you say of those 20 probably half of them didn't work for us at least so you say it's only 10 thousand so you rationalize half of it away like that and you say you know i know that people aren't going to like it but i still think it's the right thing to do and it's something that we have to do to we handle it perfectly no you know i wish actually you know i sent it out in an email at the beginning of the year because it was sort of an efficient way to do it we should have done the town hall we should have engaged people and when actually we did you know sort of six or eight later start to do town halls and I talked to people and we had panel discussions with our leadership about it it was good I think too much of it fell on me and actually our leaders to some extent wanted me to do it and I also I wanted to do it because I wanted to take responsibility for the policy which I knew would not be popular could we have handled it better of course you can always handle something's better but I I still think it's the right thing to do and I think it's the way the world is heading.

38:52You said you had disagreement within your exec team or your leadership team. Did that, you know, gradually converge over time or did that remain? And how did you handle that? One or two people left not connected to it. That made life easier. And I think some people came around and we weren't totally aligned by the end. But, you know, being the CEO, you're not going to ever get total alignment around every single decision. when you're implementing a you know a sort of policy where there's significant pushback it does make a difference when you do yeah but also i think that you know there's data to prove both things you know we looked at we looked at the data we found actually that offices with higher attendance had higher client satisfaction right they had higher uh revenue growth so it was pretty clear when you looked at the offices where people were coming in more often they were doing better you know if the companies where people weren't coming in so often they were doing worse now you know you can say is that correlation or causation i don't know but i think making people if if people don't want to come into your office to do their job they don't enjoy their job in some sense they shouldn't be doing it you know i mean i think people want to you want people in a company that are really motivated to succeed do you mind if i just build out from there the question of how leaders can cultivate cultures where creativity thrives in an ever more complicated world and obviously one where technology is playing a bigger role than it was when you implemented your return to office policy.

40:21What are your views on what leaders should be pulling hard on right now? People is the single most important factor in every business success and having people who are positive and optimistic. I much refer optimistic people to pessimistic people we have this profession about radiators and i can remember it's radiators and sinks or radiators and drains but anyway you know there are people who when you spend time with them you come out with energy and if we spend time with them you come out with less energy we're not going to name names but we know exactly so we want people in a business who are going to radiate energy and make things happen because i think business ultimately should be a positive force in every respect.

41:03I'd say that we are about to go through the biggest transformation of work driven by AI. And there are going to be a lot of people who feel insecure about it naturally. And there's going to be a massive change in work. I think in the short run, it's hard to see exactly where that is and what it is. But I think all of us that use these models can see what the potential is to know quite how far they're going to take things. I think the reality is that only businesses that the businesses that embrace them the most will be the most successful. So we have to embrace them, even if collectively, it's going to lead to a lot of dislocation.

41:42And so just to underline it, tell us what you think the case is for being optimistic about creativity continuing to thrive in an AI economy? Machines don't tend to know what a good idea is and a bad idea is and they tend to answer questions quite literally. So I'll give you my favourite example of this. So we did some work in Australia for an egg company and they make these free-range eggs and the chickens run around these enormous fields and the client came to us and said we'd like to have a poster campaign in Sydney to tell people how happy our chickens are and therefore how good the eggs are.

42:17So they went briefly into the creative department and a young woman in the creative department said, well, we could do a poster. She said, but did you know in Australia you have to print the date the egg was laid on the side of the egg? And what if we could also print the number of steps the chicken took? And so she designed a Fitbit a Fitbit for the back of the chicken, the Fit Chick. And so they strapped this Fitbit on the back of the chicken and it would count how many steps. The first one was shaped like an egg because it would be good for filming, but then the other chickens thought it was stealing the egg from the coop so they chase the chicken all around so we would create created this thing and printed like 5 452 steps on the chicken now it got a lot of press coverage or a pr coverage they they would have a thing on strava for how the chicken ran around the field if you go to ai and ask it for a question it how do i create a poster campaign it's going back with a very good poster campaign it's not going to say actually the answer to your question is strap the fitbit on the back because of the chicken.

43:14So I think there's still a role for creativity in business. And I think AI can beat that process up. It's going to give us more ideas. It's going to give us more options. It's not necessarily going to know what's a good option and what's a bad option. And for that, we're going to need human judgment. Brilliant. And I've never expected chickens to feature so highly in the answer to that question. Matt, back to you.

43:35Matt Brittin:We've got a variety of bird life in here today. You set up WVP under your leadership to be about creative transformation. And with AI accelerating, just as Hayati mentions, we don't quite know what that is going to look like. How do you think about creating a culture where creativity can thrive? Because I think that is going to become more important for every company to adapt to this changing world. You're needing to be creative and collaborative and curious. And that's what WPP was all about, despite having lots of different countries, 100 different countries and many different companies. How did you think about creating an environment where creativity can thrive?

44:13Look, there's a theory that smaller businesses are more creative than larger businesses. And it's probably easier to make a smaller business creative than a larger business creative. That's probably true. I think it's about celebrating creativity. It's about having people who are, to some extent you have to have some people who are responsible for it, but also recognize that it's everybody's job. I was never allowed to have a creative idea myself, but I did have them sometimes. When we won Creative Company of the Year in Cannes, I went on stage with all those thousands of creators. I like to think that they thought I was part of the reason that we won because I thought that this was important.

44:52I think it only comes from the top. I was fortunate to have Rob Riley as a creative partner. Rob is the type of person, like a magnet for talent. You have to have people around you that are a magnet for talent. And then you have to make some, to some extent, some irrational decisions. Irrationality in business is often, do I invest in this? Do I hire this person? Do I take a risk? Do I do this? You know, irrationality is often underestimated. Have you seen the iPhone in China has taken off because there's an Hermes orange version? Now, first thing I looked at that when I saw the orange, it was an Hermes iPhone.

45:23So clearly, although apparently it's like a different, slightly different Pantone, you're very perceptive to figure it out. So I think that ideas really matter in business, and they're the only thing that differentiates us from the function.

45:36Matt Brittin:I want to bring in another animal here because you alluded to this. I wasn't allowed to have a creative idea, but the highest paid person's opinion, the hippo, I always thought was one of the things that crushes creativity and ideas and innovation. Because if you sit in a room and go, well, hang on a minute, we should do an orange iPhone. Everybody else goes, oh, yeah, of course, we should do that. and the space for ideas to breathe is not there. So are you sort of kind of conscious of that in the leadership role? Or was it because you're an economist that you were not allowing yourself to be creative?

46:05I don't know. Maybe many organizations, the creative person is the highest paid person. So maybe they have that. We're learning something about the pay structure. Maybe they have that opinion that it matters. I think you have to let people have their wings to some extent, you know, and run with ideas. You know, we did this great event stream, as you know, in WPP, which was sort of with Yossi Vardy. It was an unconference. So it's like Alice in Wonderland. There was no agenda. You didn't know what was going to happen before you went. And everyone thought up ideas and wrote them on the board and talked about discussion.

46:39So I think it comes back to a little bit to what we talked about by kind of counter-establishment point of view. I'm quite happy to be in that situation.

46:48Matt Brittin:So as you step down from WPP, seven years as CEO, which is a long stint by anybody's yardstick, what's your reflection on the role of leaders today? We're talking to people who are aspiring to be leaders and people who are kind of leading large organizations in this really turbulent environment. What's your sense of the challenges that people face and any advice that you would hand on to the next generation? Yeah, look, I think it's very easy to say it's harder than ever. We can all think of all the reasons that it's harder than ever. you know, growth is hard to find. Technology is very disruptive.

47:23Everything you do is being corded. You've got podcasts to appear on and YouTube videos to do and speeches to make. People are judging you and can sign petitions very easily. There's lots of sort of, lots of reasons to say it's harder than it. I don't know whether things are ever harder than it. It's always been difficult for different reasons. I always say to people, choose your job carefully. You know, often, the key to success is job selection. You're going to be in an industry that's got the wind behind it or the industry the wind ahead of it. There are some people that love doing turnaround jobs and there are some people that love doing growth jobs that's something difficult.

48:00So I think that just go into things with your eyes wide open about what you enjoy doing and what needs to get done. And I'd say your first sort of three months in the job, you have biggest opportunities to establish yourself and to be successful. That's when you see things the clearest. It's easy to make difficult decisions. People will go along with you, trust your instincts as much as your analysis. You can do what you need to do because that's when things are easiest to do.

48:32Matt Brittin:Because you've got a fresh mandate and a fresh pair of eyes. What makes that? With a fresh mandate, you've got a fresh pair of eyes. Things that you do, the things you do earliest have the greatest chance of being successful over your tenure as CEO. when you're doing things two, three, four years in, it's always harder to justify them. Or why didn't you do that earlier? You know, I can look back and say there are decisions that I would have made differently, things I would have done earlier. Of course, there have to be, or you're not very reflective as a person. That first period is the time, you know, where you can really have a positive impact on the organisation and build momentum.

49:10Matt Brittin:We've all three stepped down in the last year from jobs, and that's put us in reflective mode. We're sitting in podcasts. That's why we're here. Yeah, because we've got to have a podcast to talk about that stuff. But what's next for you? How are you thinking about the next chapter? Well, I have thought about doing a podcast. But, you know, when I said that I was 58, so I'm sort of, I think, not old, but also not young. Experienced. Yes. Is that resonating, Matt? Yeah, that sounds good to me. I'm ready to think about what's there the next 20 years of my life. My father's still working at 90. so time to go what i want to do next and i think trying to recreate the past never a good idea so you won't be starting your own agency to compete with your previous i'm not going to compete with WPP no so i'd love to do some work closely linked to like a big technology company in the us as a non-executive or you know advisory role that's one thing and do some work in private equity i've taken on chair of canton media is a very interesting business as tv audience measurement all around the world.

50:11And I'd like to start to sort of advise some startups in the AI technology area. I'm doing some, starting some things there. I'm ready to sort of give advice, to move from sort of execution to advice. People want to take it, they can take it. If they don't, they don't have to. I think when you run a public company, and I don't want to sound defensive, but every single thing you do is about making that company successful. From the moment you wake up till the moment you go to sleep. Actually, do I fly here for this? Do I make the sacrifice? Do I do this? Do I do that? All of a sudden, I'm in the luxury.

50:44My algorithm is different. You know, it's not just that. And it was a privilege to do that. But it's actually somewhat different. You know, my kids are 14 and 16. I can spend some more time with them. And I can work with people I want to work with and help them solve interesting problems. I'm also a trustee at the Natural History Museum. It's an amazing organization doing a big fundraising drive at the moment. So I'm sort of trying to build sort of a set of things to do that keep me busy, keep me stimulated, keep me connected to young people and technology and things that are going on at the whole face.

51:20So Mark, we're excited to see what you do next in this next chapter. Those all sound amazing, actually, quite a lot. We're really hoping you're not going to start a podcast. You don't need any more competition. You've been very generous with your answers. I'm afraid there's one more round to go.

51:38This is the quickfire round. This is the bit I hate the most. It's going to be fun. I often love this. We're going to start in a very easy place. So we're looking for kind of maximum one or two sentences. What's your go-to snack on a busy day? Nuts at the moment. Any particular nuts? It used to be popcorn and it was replaced by nuts. So that's an upgrade. Okay. What's the cleverest campaign you've ever seen? You can make it chicken-related if you wish to, not compulsory. Oh, I still love that old HSBC ad with the eels in China, set in Hong Kong. Might need to go and look that up. What lesson do you wish you'd learned sooner as a leader?

52:15I think probably take a little bit more risk with my career. It didn't end up badly, but, you know, the things I could have done earlier would have been a bit different. You've done all right so far. What about your most embarrassing moment as a leader? Probably that CNBC interview, now I look back on it. At the time, I thought I'd done brilliantly. What makes you laugh? People. When you're doing your emails and trying to watch TV at the same time, what are you watching? A lot of, sadly, this is subscriptions to Netflix, Amazon Prime. Well, you go through the list. So a lot of that. Matt's very sad you didn't say YouTube, but never mind.

52:56YouTube. I'm over YouTube. Which leader, alive or dead, would you most like to have dinner with? Nelson Mandela. What would you like to discuss with Nelson Mandela? How he stayed so sane for so long and so generous in spirit. I think that's an amazing note on which to end. My final question for you is, what should we have asked you that we didn't? I'm not going to give you the answer to that question. Oh no, we'll just leave in suspense. But thank you, that has been amazing. we've really enjoyed learning from your experience and we certainly know a lot more now than we did at the start, Matt

53:33Matt Brittin:whether it's beachwear, chickens or other animals thank you very much, Mark Reid thanks both of you, thanks very much and thanks everyone for listening I was so honest, it wasn't Matt I mean, you know Mark so what did you make of that? well, I've known him for a really long time and I've sort of really seen him grow through those stages so it's fascinating to hear his reflections particularly about, you know being in the centre and then being an operator about that transition to CEO and then just the intensity of the job of running an enormous public company in 100 countries and what's behind the scenes.

54:05Yeah I thought it was quite interesting as well he sort of almost indicated at the start he was a bit diffident and talked about being an introvert very early on but actually he came across as somebody who had a very clear sense of self and actually quite a lot of self-belief despite what he said when we asked him about that and I think you know that kind of clarity and confidence is part of why people look at you and think you could be a leader so he did seem to have that sort of i don't he's quite he was quite relaxed about he's quite relaxed about decisions he'd taken that had been maybe controversial at the time he could see the line of thought he was happy to stand by that happy to admit where things hadn't been executed the way he you know looking back would have liked to i thought you know that

54:49Matt Brittin:assurance really came across to me yeah i think for me uh you know what came across and what we know now about mark is um that point of leading by being yourself you know he followed somebody completely different personality wise who totally shaped the company and he jumps in and he does it his way and he doesn't try you know i don't try at all to hate my predecessor so everybody knows i have to do it my way and he is actually really personable and connects well with people at a at a small level, he mentioned he had to learn how to do the larger scale communication. And then another thing I found interesting was his insights on running a creative organization, which I think we all need to be.

55:25Matt Brittin:So how do you unlock that creativity and create the space sometimes by being irrational to do that and not crush things through leadership? And then finally, for me, he shared about how important the early stages of your leadership are. That's the time when you can see clearly, you can take some of the tougher decisions, people aren't sort of second guessing where you're going, and that opportunity to reshape things quickly came across really powerfully. Yeah, I think those are great points. And I also was really struck by his confidence around why we should be optimistic in an AI era. And this notion that, you know, human judgment is not something that's, you know, easily automated away.

56:07I mean, I think, you know, there are times when that's going to hold up better than others but actually I thought that was quite encouraging I loved his chicken example I also thought it was some very sage advice around banking that portfolio of experience early in your career he'd obviously done it without a plan but really a CEO job is a generalist job so when you do have within your kind of stable of experience quite a few of the different functions that you might then need to go on to lead I think it's actually a huge advantage so you can do it by being a deep specialist and then broadening out but I tend to agree with him that it's easiest if you've just had a little bit of an opportunity to see how the different corners of the sector or organization work before you have to sit in the top job.

56:51Matt Brittin:Final thought for me I think he touched on how difficult it is to prepare to be a leader in today's organizations you're running a division or a silo or even at a small scale a part of an organization, when you step up to leading the whole thing, you've got to know everything. And that's a really difficult thing to prepare for. I'd love to explore that more as we go through this series. Great. I look forward to that. Great. Well, thanks for listening, everyone. I hope you enjoyed that as much as we did and look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks so much. See you next time.