The Imposter Feeling Every Leader Faces (And How to Beat It) | Natasha Frangos

0:00So as the first female doing the role as well, you kind of, I've definitely felt a sense of, it's alright guys, I do know what I'm doing. Founders struggle when there are other stakeholders around the table and so being open to the fact that there is another voice at the table and how to interact with that is really important. I think there's all sorts of little bird life and whatnot going on around. Little creatures and the odd bird flying around and a really hard working trail of ants that I'm observing on that leaf. Teamwork. That's teamwork. What has Coco Chanel taught you about leadership?

0:33So she... Hi, I'm Hyalton and welcome to What We Don't Know, all about better leadership in a chaotic world. We are here at Anthropi, which is taking place in Cornwall, the Eden Project. I'm sitting here in the Rainforest Dome and it is full of wonderful noises, creatures, sound effects. It's pretty hot in here, so bear with us if you have a slightly misty camera lens or you can hear the sound of gushing water. Hopefully it will all add to the experience. I'm flying solo once again, so stay with me and keep me company. I'm going to have a really, really great conversation with somebody who is a very inspirational leader.

1:15She's called Natasha Frangos and she's a managing partner at Hayes Mac. One of the things I love learning from leaders is how to show up with energy and enthusiasm and to just, you know, get comfortable in your own skin in the workplace. So if you are interested in that too, you're going to love this conversation with Natasha. She's bubbly, she's dynamic and she's done a really great job of creating positivity and excitement around a mid-tier accountancy firm at a time when there are just so many headwinds. We're going to hear about what Coco Chanel can teach us about leadership. We're going to see what we can learn from a parade of ants.

1:52We're going to be hearing about why being the managing partner should basically be called chief herder of cats. But we're also going to be learning about why the theatre is a great source of leadership energy. We're going to be hearing about why it can be so valuable to get a mentor from right outside your sector. And we're also going to be hearing about why there's value in sometimes forging a career in one organisation, even if it means you don't get the breadth of experience you might get somewhere else. So it's a masterclass in positive leadership. So if that sounds like something that you want to know more about, stay with us.

2:26So Natasha, welcome. It's a very warm welcome because we are in a rather unusual setting here in the Rainforest Dome at the Eden Project in Cornwall, because we're both here for the Anthropi Conference. But I'm so glad that we're grabbing some time to hear more about you and your story into leadership. So I think let's just start with what you're doing now. So what does it mean to be a managing partner at Hayes Mac? Tell us a bit about what your life involves professionally. Yeah, thank you. A pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on the podcast, Hayeson. And what a beautiful environment that we're surrounded by at the moment um so i've been in post for coming up to four years actually um but i've been at the firm for 25 um and since being elected into managing partner role i've got the responsibility of essentially running the business setting the direction of travel the strategy and then implementing that of course with the support of my management team and many others throughout the organization so it's a real privilege leading the firm and i've been you know it's lovely to see how much we've achieved in those four years with still more to come I've actually just been re-elected last week for the next four years.

3:39Oh congratulations. Yeah it was exciting. Well I think it's going to be really interesting to understand a bit more about what leadership means in a partnership context but before then I would like to take you right back to the beginning and I'd love to hear a bit about your upbringing what was it like in your household how did your start in life set you up for the roles that you've gone on to play? um my family environment and where I grew up and and the culture I was surrounded by has definitely shaped who I am and the type of leader that I've become um so a Greek Cypriot heritage and I grew up in a household that was very busy lots of people in it lots centered around food or the kitchen and my gran lived with us so I was raised on two languages Greek and English and she is a like massive inspiration for me so she was widowed very young with four children in cyprus um she came over to england not knowing anyone not speaking a word of english worked in factories with four young children my mum was like not even one at the time um and kind of created a living for her daughters essentially you can imagine the resilience that that must have involved exactly and especially at a time when it was tough to be a woman then you know you couldn't really open your own bank account without a man being with you.

4:59So she relied on the generosity and support of the men in her life, like her family that were here to help her get through that. But she was a very strong woman. And so I think having her and being raised in a house with that influence absolutely shaped the person that you grow up to be. My dad had his own practice. So he also came maybe when he was in his teens and worked in bars and restaurants and did his training as an accountant and then mentally set up his own practice. And so I guess I've always grown up around like finance and accounts. And, you know, I remember helping him sort out his VAT receipts, all the rest of it for his clients.

5:41Great training, both of the role you now play. But what I saw and observed about my father and his relationships with his clients was it was, it was really he was a trusted sounding board for them not just in business but also in life like he was the godfather to the children of some of his clients for example and he's now still in touch with the multi-generational um individuals that have come out of his client base so i think that kind of gave me a really good perspective on what a trusted advisor looks like and how you create that really sticky relationship and then of course my mum my mum is like my biggest supporter we all need mums like that yeah exactly so she um loves fashion she went to the london college of fashion as a fashion designer and so i love fashion as a result it's starting to fall into flame and i still rate her wardrobe for all the things that she has bought over the years and are now in my wardrobe excellent so that's really good um well i would say that my parents were slightly different to maybe some other families in that Greek community in that they always encouraged me to kind of get as far as I could in my career you know getting married settling down having kids never really came on the agenda it was kind of you'll go off to uni you'll get a really good job and then you could think about all of that later on in life you know and that was quite rare yeah and and I I could see that other individuals in either I was growing up with in the greek community weren't following the same path there were a lot of women that got nothing wrong with it but got married very young and started having children very early on so i remember feeling that i was perceived as being a bit odd yes because i wasn't following that path and almost sensing some judgment towards that yeah yeah and i think you know whether we like it or not we are products of other people's expectations to some degree and i can definitely relate to the um Aren't you leaving this a bit late question?

7:45One of my aunties, and I was about 24, saying it's all very lovely that you're educated, but isn't it getting a bit much? It's enough now. PhD! So you grew up in this sort of very strong sense of, you know, a loving family, but in a broader community context. and with people who clearly had aspirations for you. They felt that you could go on to do things in your career that would be rewarding. Did you have a self-belief? Did you feel, I could lead something one day? Did you have leadership experiences as a young person? Yeah, I think I always had a sense of wanting to aim high and kind of wanted to achieve something in life and feel like I was making a difference to people around me.

8:41And that also came from the kind of the friends that I have, you know, like, so I'm still really good friends with a couple of old school friends and they have absolutely shaped and kind of have all supported each other. You know, one of my best friends, she was told by our headmistress that she would not get anywhere in life. And then she got four A's and her A levels went off to Oxford, she's got to do her PhD at King's, is now in San Diego, is a biochemist. And so you just think, oh my gosh, like you totally bucked the trend there. And I think being surrounding, I was very fortunate to be surrounded by, you know, not many, just a handful of great women that we've grown up together and we've kind of empowered each other.

9:28Yeah, I think it's that sort of feeling of having fellow travelers along the way is so valuable. and sometimes they'll fight harder for you than you'll fight for yourself which I think is another beautiful dimension of those you know like peer coaches, peer champions however you want to call it so we've just taken a quick pause for those people who are listening there are some very interesting sound effects going on here in the rainforest biome so we've tried to get rid of a few of the odd jingles and jangles going on but there's a limit to how much we can do and I think there's all sorts of little bird life and whatnot going on around us and the odd bird flying around and a really hard working trail of ants that I'm observing on that leaf.

10:07I'm sure there's some leadership lesson that we can change from that. Teamwork. That's teamwork. Okay, fantastic. Right. So going back to you and your career, talk to us about how you then moved into your first leadership role and your kind of career path to get there. Yeah, so I, my first leadership role was head of creative media and technology at the firm. So it was the first time the firm had gone down a sector focus. Up until then, it was a relatively traditional partnership, whereby everybody had their like business kind of thing. And we realized actually to accelerate growth. And we did use an external consultancy firm to help us on this journey.

10:49How could we make what we were talking about more relevant to an audience? How could we grow the accounts that we had and that's when actually this concept of becoming sector experts emerged so we looked at our entire client base identified well where do we already have a bit of a foothold and then what are the areas that we want to grow and when then we created our sector teams around that it wasn't always the case that we had the foothold some was just driven by a passion so for example today one of our most successful sectors has been our hospitality sector. We are very well known that for lots of household names, pubs, restaurants, bars, hotels.

11:30And that we didn't really have any hospitality clients. But one of my fellow partners at the time just loves that sector. So he was like, I'm going to go off that sector. And I was the same. We do really have a lot of retail. And I was like, I want to go off the fashion industry. So it was a mixture of passion and really having a genuine interest in talking to these businesses. And I think that really does make a difference when you are an advisor and also where we already have an existing specialism and because i've done a lot of work in that creating media and tech space um i was asked to lead that i love that role what an interesting sector and actually also it was a very vibrant time wasn't it you took on that role um what did you what have you learned from that exposure to companies that had a very particular kind of entrepreneurial drive and had that sense of being disruptors Do you think that was something that influenced the leader you became?

12:22It absolutely has. You know, so what I observe is they were obviously moving at a certain pace. I observed founders who were coming up with new ideas and then using a team to help them implement that. Not worrying about what had happened too much or how we've done things in the past, but I'm thinking about how could we improve what we're doing. um and so i'd say i've taken lots of those learnings and i've seen what good looks like and i've seen what bad looks like you know i've seen some you give us some examples yeah both please um so i've seen some um individuals who have um raised money very successfully and had a clear plan, but then it's almost like something happens when that money is raised.

13:15And then the focus that they had on the plan that was to be delivered, I've actually seen it almost go to their heads in some instances. And before you know it, the money is spent not in the way that was planned. And obviously that's kind of difficult to watch. But I've also seen it when some businesses have taken that money and then applied it in exactly the right way but also thinking about testing like are we spending it you know we had this plan but actually are things going the way we want them to should we revisit how we were planning on spending it and taking counsel as they do that along the way and I think that's what good looks like and using you know it's difficult often I've seen founders struggle when there are other stakeholders around the table and when there is maybe an individual from a PE firm around that table because money has been raised or a VC fund and so being open to the fact that there is another voice at the table and how to interact with that I would also say it's really important for those individuals that come to that table post-investment to ensure that their culture fit is aligned and that actually the values of what the business stands for and what they're here to achieve is aligned to how that external investor wants the business to run as well and I've seen friction arise and that hasn't always been aligned.

14:38It can be very hard at the start of your journey in growing a business maybe your first time founder to even know what what culture and values is it you know that I want to hold true to me and when you've got lots of voices around you it's difficult to navigate that isn't really difficult to navigate and also of course you've created this business haven't you and you've and you know you've taken it so far and then you've kind of opened yourself up to the external world and external viewpoint and so I completely agree it's really difficult to navigate and also the leadership team changes doesn't it because you have people that come with you up to a certain point of a business's journey and then the c-suite sometimes changes to be that next level to help business get to the next phase well that's a good point to come on to the transition that you made getting to the next level of your career so um i so having headed up the critical leader and tech team for a decade or so um i was then asked by the then managing partner to join his management board it was then as head of corporate so that was kind of looking at the corporate sectors that we are in and working with the sector heads in the overall market plan of how we go to market that was my first firm-wide leadership role and it was tough because we did most of that term in covid so it was the first first firm-wide leadership role and we were doing it remotely and I had four-year-old twins running around in the background and like yeah a nine-year-old daughter who was studying remotely so it was kind of all a little bit chaotic oh my gosh yeah this is bringing back stressful memories uh but four-year-old twins that as well as a nine-year-old that's that's intense and touching yeah it was um hard is what i would say and chaos um but i learned a lot yeah so so how you know we look back and it seems a bit mad that we did have to suddenly collapse all the different parts of our lives into a little home office or something if we were lucky enough to have that um what what what from that period has you have you taken with you that's still relevant to the way you lead now or the way that you balance the different parts of your life now um i would say that um we were under a lot of pressure to cut jobs from people in the business and I'm really proud that we held firm and didn't um and that was the right call to take because we then got very very busy and we needed all of those people so the lesson that I learned was it's you need to take risks sometimes um and you know uh you might not have everybody completely aligned but if you and your management team and you've considered it fully and come to that decision um take the risk and because it was absolutely the right call to take of course risks don't always pay off but that was a really great example of where it did yeah and then you move from that to even headier heights uh yes so as we did that for three years and then I was elected into the managing partner role um like coming up to four years now so and is it true that the the real job title for managing partners should just be chief herder of cats yes 40 plus partners to come on yeah right for those of us who haven't experienced this give us a peek into what this is really like so be honest with us I love I so you know I do think partnerships are special okay like we are so proud of the business that we have created you know and that means we're all incredibly passionate about our business and have a view on how it should be run and on the direction of travel the problem is not a problem it's it's a good thing to have we're 650 big now and so and we're 40 plus at partner level so it's impossible to run a business as founders and CEOs in corporates will know, to run a business taking insight and, you know, a view from everybody.

19:05And so we have had to kind of change our governance and how we're set up. And they did a little bit of that. You know, my predecessor started some of that and then I've continued it in terms of how we make decisions, but making decisions, you know, with the right consultation and then making sure the comms after that decision have been made are appropriate so everybody understands the why. and also talking about the debate that was had along the way and why there were other options or routes we could have gone down but actually this is why we chose this route but that is so critical in a partnership which is something that you don't necessarily see in a corporate environment.

19:43I mean maybe it's good practice anywhere but you certainly don't have any choice about it. Yeah, no, you don't, yeah. It's a really interesting transition when you go from being in a peer group to being the boss almost whatever the context it's still one of those seminal changes in your career did you find that a comfortable thing to do it was um the most uncomfortable bit of it started when I had to be elected so I went from being like a really like I will say I was a successful a partner in the market i was winning loads of work you know cmt was the largest sector in the firm it was also a great media and tech yeah creative media and tech um it's the largest sector it was also a great um sector where we were bringing lots of talent through so it was creating a lot of the leaders of tomorrow through that sector um and so i went from being there to Please vote for me.

20:44And this is why you should. And it was really uncomfortable. So yeah, that's where it started. So I'm thinking maybe, you know, now you've got the hang of this, maybe Korean politics might be next to you. Oh, I don't know about that. Yeah, I don't know about that. So once you get over the awkwardness of having to persuade people, kind of like campaigning. Yes, exactly. And it was the first contested election ever. Oh, really? Oh, even better. Even better. So once you get past that bit, when you were elected to the role, did you feel, OK, I've got the mandate, off I go? Or was that also something that took adjustment?

21:22That took adjustment as well because, so as a first female doing the role as well, you kind of, I definitely felt a sense of, it's all right, guys, do you know what I'm doing? So I felt like I had to do a little bit of that. But I also knew that to do the role, I wasn't just going to do it to hold a mantle and pass it on to someone else. I wanted to make some changes. I got a lot of insight because of the roles that I've had, you know, because I was at the head of corporate on the former board that was running the business and head of a sector. And so I kind of had a view already of the changes that I thought we should make to ensure that we continue to achieve our great growth trajectory.

22:06you know the business has grown 65 in four years so not just an average four years yeah

22:16so but we had to change to enable that growth and that's what being organic as well is the other thing to say so what does that mean it meant that we needed to ensure we were creating an environment where our top talent felt supported could be promoted was given the space to go to market we had a culture that where people could try new things and it was okay to fail but just try them anyway because if we don't try them we're not going to innovate we're not going to change um I was really focused on making sure we raised our profile I felt like we were flying under the radar compared to some of our peers how do we you know be bolder about what we've got to offer and that meant sort of I was like okay I've got to put myself out there a little bit as well and that can be a bit uncomfortable as well too um so yeah how did you get comfortable with all these things because you know you've obviously managed to do it was it just you know build the muscle by practicing or um i had i got a mentor actually that was really helpful and a mentor that wasn't from the professional services world right that and and he challenged like how we how we show up and how we stand out from the crowd and what kind of a leader are you going to be?

23:29And you know, so that was really your mentor then. It was it was actually a recommendation from a contact that I've known for many, many, many years. Right. So and at the time I was like, oh, I don't know if this is right because he's never been in the professional service as well. What's he going to know? And I was so wrong. I mean, it's like when you have an outside in perspective, you know, you know, you know, know your world yeah you need someone else to come with fresh eyes yeah and that was it was really great um we also i was very fortunate that the partners at that time also agreed we should bring in um non-execs for the first time so we bought we hired our two non-execs a few months after i was in post and they've it's been great having that external you as well so our chair steve is like ex-kpmg so just having someone that's come from that big four world you know i know we're not big before but we could say there's loads we can learn as we grow and scale and having that insight has been super helpful as well yeah non-execs also in a great way bringing that kind of cognitive diversity and range of experience absolutely so that you can draw on the best of all of those well yes indeed you you've been created as saying um growth is never done yeah and it's a really interesting phrase that i gather you use repeatedly tell us what that means to you so um first of all it's important to say that it's not growth just for growth's sake so and i always say this to the team that we're not just striving to hit a top line it's always working with the clients that we want to work with you know in the sectors that we are experts in in a profitable sustainable way and in a way that doesn't harm our culture or the the kind of environment where our people can grow and develop in their careers it's really important that we keep sight of all of that but you know if you're not aiming for growth, then might as well go home.

25:21Yes, I feel like it's really important to not, yes, we are doing well, but we can always do better. And there's always things to learn. And there are always, you know, improvements to make. And we don't know it all. So I also feel like I'm still learning. I'm learning every day. And I think it's really important that everybody feels that. Yeah. I love the, you know, the drive and the energy you bring to even the way you're talking about that what sometimes happens is when you have a ceo or managing partner who's got that kind of um natural momentum that other people around them don't necessarily share that to the same degree how do you create that kind of the shared energy level the shared appetite yeah to keep on growing to keep on evolving it's a really good point titan because um i do worry that it's like just also quite exhausting isn't it you know and like more change and like you want more exactly so i am where um but i i think it's really important to talk about what's in it for you yeah as well because if we are an organization that is evolving and improving then what does that mean for the associates for the partners um it means that for the associates that hopefully we're working with better clients we've got more lnd opportunities we've got career progression you know i'm really proud that we are an organization that promotes people when they're ready not based on time served and so to be able to do that we've got to have resources and the platform to enable that growth in space so that's what's in it for the associates coming through and what's in it for the partners well ai and automation is just around the corner well it's actually here on our doorstep innovating what our industry is doing and so the realization that we have to change otherwise we risk becoming irrelevant to our clients and they will find someone else to serve them that's the reality of it when you put it like that i mean i'm trying to get distracted by the fact we've got a robin now sitting on our camera that is pretty special we don't get that in our recording studios back in central london um but i was just listening to you thinking one of the ways I was framed it when I was in my CEO role was that there's a lot of sort of wariness about change but everybody loves progress yes I love that so it all depends on um you know how it actually feels to be going through that change um so you've actually spontaneously talked about culture quite a bit and I think it's fair to say I know it's a stereotype but when people think about accountancy they wouldn't necessarily think about people and culture first if they don't know much about what it's like to be in accountancy tell me about why people and culture is so much to the fore of what you talk about as a managing partner as a leader in this sector um yeah it's so important and i do talk about it a lot we're ultimately a people-based business.

28:23Yes. And so if we don't have an environment which brings the best out of those people where they feel that it is a safe space to raise a view or to bring a new idea and that they will feel listened to, then we are not going to be able to retain our top talent. You know, we've got a really great track record of like the majority of our partners are homegrown. We've got And that's, you know, we mustn't lose that. And lateral hires, bringing in people from other firms is great because it brings new and fresh perspective. But also the homegrown talent is super important for us as well. And so that's where the culture comes into play.

29:07And also I find that I strongly believe that values and culture are like hand in hand with growth and success and innovation. because you're creating the environment for all of that to take place. That's almost like the output in a way. And culture can sound a bit nebulous. So what does it mean to you? How did you go about defining the culture that you wanted Hayes Mac to be known for when you stepped into the managing partner role? Yeah, so I think how does it show up for us is definitely accessibility of anyone in the business. We are literally open plan. We just sit at desks in both our London and our Cape Town team.

29:58So anyone can walk up to anybody and have a conversation. And I think that says something about culture, being able to just have a conversation with someone or raise a new idea, creating different forums for people to be able to speak up, whether that's through their department their sector to our people team so i think that's really important you know to raise a concern or to raise a new idea um i think the idea that you and i talk about this a lot is um you know don't be afraid to try new things try them and and fail that's fine so saying that on repeat um and because what we have found is when people do that it often leads to a new opportunity and also the idea that you you might have come into the firm to train to become a tax advisor but actually because of the type of environment that we operate in feel free to get involved in our DEI initiatives feel free to run a fundraising campaign or you know create a new L &D program and you can see that happening around the bit So we've just launched two of our directors have just launched an initiative called Connect Her.

31:13So it went live on LinkedIn yesterday. And that's they're creating an ecosystem to create, to connect the next generation of like female founders with advisors, with investors. And just to create this ecosystem and community where people can have a conversation and start to build their own networks. and that came, it was their idea, and we're just creating the platform to help them launch it. Okay, so that's really helped with kind of bring to life what it feels like to work in the organisation. You've been doing this against the backdrop of extraordinary technological change. Yes. So how is that keyed into what we're discussing here and to the growth challenge as well?

31:59Yeah, no, it's that is like top of my agenda at the moment is sort of planning, you know, how do we change, you know, the talent, how we train our talent essentially to be able to use these tools in a way where they don't feel, you know, my job is written. And then there definitely is anxiety amongst some of our team, for sure, in that, you know, I've done this role, this compliance role, completing this tax return. That's all I've known. And how is AI and automation going to impact that? And it already is in some departments where we're using these automation tools. And so I guess the approach is twofold.

32:42One is talking about the fact that we encourage people to look for new solutions to help their area of business, because we have people that are just genuinely passionate about these automation and AI tools. So they're encouraged to go and see what's out there. So we have like our AI community. And then we have our AI committee, which is recently formed, which is like somewhere where they can filter because there's so much out there. we can filter that and ensure that we're linking up because somebody in the private client team might be looking at a solution that could also help audit for example and how do we bring that learning so that we can get the benefit across the business so we have that in operation but then we've also revamping our lnd offering um so lnd meaning learning and development learning and development absolutely so um we're going to roll out soon on everyone in the organization like prompt training and so i would just i feel like our approach to ai and automation needs to be twofold one is to level up everyone to a certain level you know and how to use it on a day-to-day basis and almost sort of say this is how we should be running our meetings now with copilot whatever it is that we're going to be using and taking the notes summarizing it and so people daily are seeing the positive impact that that has and it is positive because it's saving you time on the mundane task so that you can spend more time with your team, with the client, looking at the insights that it's giving you and then following up on the actions.

34:15And then also you have then this other layer, which are like the innovators and then creating a forum for them to be able to trial and explore and then create solutions that are then going to enable us to evolve the service and how we deliver it to our clients. But there's so much to do. hot in there. Yeah, it does. I mean, we know we're still at the foothills of what this journey is going to look like. I think probably we get a lot of attention on the big companies because then you get the sort of headlines of shedding X many thousand jobs or closing the graduate scheme. And then you get the anxiety about what's happening to small companies.

34:48The mid-sized companies get less attention. Yeah. What does it feel like at the moment to be a sort of mid-sized company having to compete in a in a very complex environment what's the case for us giving more focus to mid-size companies or do you want us to leave you alone to just get on and grow as well yeah um i would say we've got the ability to be able to move quicker so we're never going to have the resources of the bigger firm to be able to develop our own solutions like a lot of like the big four developing their own technology. We don't have those resources, so but but partnerships are really powerful for us.

35:29So and that's how we've been going on our journey is finding and we've often been early adopters. So like we were one of the first firms to adopt Inflow, which is like a fantastic audit platform. And now we can see all of our peers are following. But we're probably 18 months ahead of where they were in adoption of that. But we again, it was probably a risk taken because we were one of the first to do it but as a result of getting in with them early we were able to create a very strong partnership and still have a very strong partnership with them um and so i would say that's how we are responding to the challenge of knowing that the bigger firms have got deeper pockets i would say it causes some anxiety because i also feel like um those tools will level the playing field for those larger firms to be able to service the types of clients that we're currently servicing and so we've got to be mindful of right well if they're going to be coming after our market what does that mean for us and how are we going to price our work add you know talk about the value that we bring as sector experts as you know really personable you you get your partner access um and so that's and how do we evolve our service offering do we need to think about what our future market looks like and how it might extend to businesses that that maybe we had previously thought we'd outgrown.

36:50So kind of there's all that thinking that I've got going on as well. And then also looking at, of course, all the PE consolidation that's going on in our market. And I guess we can't finish without talking about that and us sort of being quite vocal about, we've spoken about it as a partnership group and we want to remain an independent partner-owned business. We're really pleased with the strategy that we've got and want to continue implementing it, But it will mean that we have to keep up with this pace of innovation. That's not an easy task. How do you sustain your own energy level, Tash, when you've got this kind of relentless pressure?

37:29It's never going to go away. No. No matter how much you love your job, that's still a lot of responsibility to carry. yeah how do you make sure that you have enough in the tank to keep on providing that confident um direction for the the organization it's a really good question i have um i my family kind of replenish me like i love being with my kids and um my bigger family we've got family um and my friends so that kind of refuels me if you like and re-energizes me something about mind switching that's actually a very good way to detox from all of the work anxieties completely agree with you um i am i do yoga once a week on the same time every week and i've done that for four years at the same that's impressive every week and i can't um apart from you know when i'm away like this week and I'll just change it but but that I need that every week I know that I'm dependent on that sort of just that moment to pause and reset um and my yoga therapist is fantastic um and then coming to places like this and just meeting people I do I I think meeting new people and having conversations outside of the office yeah putting yourself in new environments that really kind of re-energizes me as well yeah um and just working with my team i love working my team yeah you're a lot of good human connection yeah you've done lots of first you know you talked about bucking the trend a bit in terms of say wider community expectations and the first uh woman to be managing partner of hazemac do you do you ever feel a pressure that comes with being held up as a role model?

39:21Yes. Are you comfortable with the concept of being a role model? I don't really like it no. Is it not the first thing you say to everyone hello? I don't like it so I'm just doing my job. Do you know who knows where it comes from though? Yeah it kind of makes me cringe to be honest.

39:50what would you hope that for your daughter the workplace is like that's different from the one that you entered um i hope that well actually i hope she does find a space you know it was it i was fortunate enough to find a business that gave me i felt like i had autonomy and space to grow and space to try new things and i hope my daughter finds the same sort of space and actually that they're more plentiful um and that she is heard and listened to and is feels that she can voice her views and i from what i can see she'll have no problem doing that yeah so i feel very much same about my daughter i'm still learning from her actually so um so interesting so you've done a lot already what haven't you done yet that you would love to have the chance to do professionally so what I haven't done yet and I would love to when I have a bit more time like and my children a little bit older is um you know doing some mentoring outside of my business so I do lots of that in the business and you know working with my team and um developing that next generation of leaders but I'd love to do that um later on um externally um and also I would like to do something later on in life which goes into early years into schools and because I do feel that it starts that early on and so just being if I if there's any way that I can help shape some of the new talent coming out of schools in how they think about business and why it's a good thing to go into business with confidence and talking a little bit about your personal story and why a point of difference is a good thing that you should talk about if i could do any of that that would be great i'll try not to mention the fact that you would be a very inspiring role model to do that but let's just uh let's just move on from that um we're in a really complex time in the world uh there is just not a day that goes past when we don't think okay right that's another layer of challenge we have to deal with or that's another example of something that you know has ramifications for us personally professionally when you look ahead at the coming year what is it that you're excited about and what is it that you're going to have to you know be giving real attention to in the context of hazemack to make sure you're across so i oh there's quite a lot of big things that are that i'm focusing on this year.

42:29So of course, the big topic that we just spoken about of how we were going to move on on our automation and AI journey and equipping our team with the skills to use it, finding the right tools, thinking about how that evolves the service that we offer our clients and that client experience, thinking about the best client experience that we can deliver and the different ways our clients will want to engage with us and how we're going to be able to um you know evolve to be able to to meet those expectations how we talk about value and pricing you know that we are going to be in a world where hours times charge rate equals fee is is going to be an irrelevant concept so how do we equip our team with the confidence to talk about the value they deliver to clients and to business um our international offering growing that um and sort of making that a stronger um offering amongst a backdrop of lots of consolidation of smaller firms internationally as well and p money going cross-border um and then of course retaining and developing our top talent, you know.

43:48So ensuring that we are diversifying the range of services that we have in the business of bringing in new talent and promoting existing talent. What are you most looking forward to from that huge to-do list? All beyond it. Most looking forward to. All of it. I love that. I like naughty things that need to be addressed. So kind of that's what keeps me driven. Well, that's lucky you sound like you're definitely in the right job then.