What Negotiating With Putin & Gaddafi Taught Me About Leadership | Lord John Browne

26:19Matt Brittin:And I'm interpreting what you said a little bit going back to your time at Stanford. There's an element of the sort of empathy that you bring to the way you listen to these people who've got more experience and more talent than you readily say that now. So that's not necessarily the kind of stereotypical view we'd have of somebody becoming the CEO of an oil company. You might think it would be more macho and more. I mean, I think my view always was to absolutely have the best of people around me and actually allow them to be the best of the best. And so I think the judgment always is we're not to intervene.

27:03We're not to intervene because everyone can intervene the whole time. And also to decide what it is you want to do. I think all of us realized, and I mean the new team, that for BP in the mid-90s, it was either up or out. We couldn't be what we were. We were a two-pipeline company. We'd really just sort of been eventually let go by the government. Many people thought much of BP looked like a subdivision of the Foreign Office. We were very, very good at that, but we needed to be better at some other things. And so we embarked on a path of rebuilding the company altogether. And that included, and amongst other things, looking at what we were doing to the climate.

27:57Matt Brittin:So you had some scaling up things to do, but you also had this big shift to beyond petroleum. That was later. That was a bit later. How did you assemble the way towards that? Well, what we did is we shifted the way in which the company was working. The company, and actually this is an interesting lesson for today because things come around. It was very, very organized in an old-fashioned way. So it was organized by product with functional and regional matrices. It's quite difficult. So we agreed that what we would do is we would decompose it and actually we would give primacy to business units and have the best of the best people running those rather than running regions in head office or some function in head office.

28:54and recognising there would be duplication, but actually the power of getting people being entrepreneurial in business units far exceeded the loss of efficiency by getting everything working, coordinated at the centre.

29:11Matt Brittin:So for people who don't understand, what's an example of a key business unit? So a key business unit would be the southern North Sea gas production. Okay, so things like that. Or actually marine fuels supply or aviation, commercial aviation. Right. So you're thinking about a set of customers. They're all customer oriented. And even in the production sphere, there's always a customer at the end. And you mentioned at the same time, you were becoming aware of the climate impact. Yes. And obviously, you know, big oil is seen as hugely damaging. and you led from an early insight at a leadership level towards this sort of shift in strategy, first in the industry.

29:59The interesting thing is oil companies are filled with very, very good earth scientists, by definition. And we like to pride ourselves. In fact, the chief of that was so demanding. He would look at the people applying for jobs. and really unless they had a string of firsts or a PhD, they weren't even looked at. You know, I mean, he was very demanding. These people observed the world and there was this sort of buzz around saying, you know, something's going on here. We need to look at this. We need to understand what's going on. And so that's exactly what we did. We did a lot of work internally.

30:43There were some differences of opinion. And of course there were because the data is uncertain. And then we overlaid it with a lot of people from outside who came to help us. And we concluded on the balance of probability, on the significant balance of probability, something was happening. And we could begin to think about what we would do about it. So we said, well, let's work out an action plan, things we can do rather than just say, gosh, it's happening. things like reducing the emissions of methane from pipes and stuff like that, putting a price on carbon. So we're aware of what we were doing to the outside world when we were doing a project, investing in renewables.

31:30That was the least of our successful actions because in those days, if you wanted a solar cell, you had to make it yourself. You couldn't pick up the phone and get it from china so costs were crazy can i just ask though because this is a real leadership moment i

31:46Matt Brittin:think because you're running a company that depends on the success of oil in parallel you're seeing that that what you're doing is damaging and that there's a climate emergency others might have decided that i'm not looking at that we need to focus on our core purpose i think we always realized that you know the and remember this a long time ago yeah uh that uh the world was highly dependent on hydrocarbons and the chances of replacing those calories, those joules, with something else in any finite period were very low. So we had to go hand in hand with hydrocarbons and people thought very linearly that, you know, no, it's a switch.

32:30You can switch it on, switch it off. And you absolutely can't. You cannot do that. But can I ask, John, did you feel, despite the kind of clarity of underpinning thinking and the rigor of the work that was going on in BP at the time, did you think this is a risky thing to do, to be the first leader of an oil major to talk about the link between fossil fuels and climate change? Did it feel a sort of courageous thing to do? Well, we felt it was risky to an extent, but necessary to do because it probably reduced long-term risk. And it had some other extraordinary benefits. So setting aside being criticized by the American Petroleum Institute and things like that, what happened was in recruiting people to the company, we had an extraordinary uptick of amazing people who wanted to come and join an oil industry.

33:24And in those days, it was getting more difficult to get people to come and join. They wanted to join the newfangled industries of the future. But we had this massive influx of really good people coming in. And that in itself was really quite important. But we also, importantly, we realized that this was going to be a debate forever. And we wanted to be at the table where our future was being debated rather than being outside. while other people were debating what they were going to do to us. So I think that was a very important move. Well, I would like to get on to your books in a minute. But before then, I think we have to ask you, John, you've negotiated with some very interesting people.

34:09You were instrumental in BP's forays into Russia. I believe you did sit down across the negotiating table with President Putin. Many times. Many times. Any reflections that you'd like to share about those experiences and any stories you'd like to tell about other interesting people?

34:24Matt Brittin:How do you prepare for sitting down opposite President Putin and a negotiation? Well, very carefully, first of all. So one of the things I noticed about Putin from the very first time I met him, which is when he came to London in 99, and everybody said, this is the man to support because he is not Yeltsin and he's going to put order into Russia, which has proved to be true, except it wasn't quite the order people expected. Anyway, so I remember going to see him first and he did something in that meeting, which he did in all the subsequent probably 30 meetings I had with him, is you start by destabilizing your counterparty.

35:19And he did that by, without a note in front of him, telling me about myself, which was an obvious point he wanted to make. And so I proceeded to tell him what we were doing in Russia and why we had a much bigger plan and why he couldn't do it himself. because very simply, we had the technology and the management to do something that he desperately needed, which was to revive the oil and gas industry of Russia.

35:55Matt Brittin:So when you meet President Putin and he tells you about you, potentially things that he's discovered in ways you didn't know he had, you're not fazed by that? You just move on? No, you begin to understand that, you know, I had a Russian, a very interesting Russian partner called Mikhail Friedman, who, enormously intelligent, not very close to Putin at all. And he once said to me, and I hope he wouldn't mind me saying this, he said, the thing about Russia, he said, is you have to remember, we're neither European nor Asian. We're between the two. and he said the way we say hello to somebody when we're about to have a negotiation is to punch them in the face he said just remember that and he was spot on you know so you have to remember that the the opening salvo is one of being unreasonable and being in a position of control and then how do you move that to a point where at least you have a debate and a discussion and that was very important to me.

37:06I like to think that one of the things that works very well, coming back to this question of purpose, is have very clear purpose and a very clear agenda and keep repeating the agenda. You may get bored with the agenda, but you're the only person getting bored with the agenda. Everybody else is probably listening to it. I love that.

37:28Matt Brittin:So there's a great lesson there, isn't there, which is like sometimes when somebody punches you in their face, that's their way of saying hello. It is. And you've just got to come back from that respectively. You do. You do. And others do things like keep you waiting. I remember with Colonel Gaddafi, I went to see him. I had to wait 24 hours, 24 hours to see him. And then we were taken in the middle of the desert and he appeared dressed in orange chiffon over battle fatigues. And it's spent hours just complaining about the West. But they're all like that. I mean, I think I dealt with many, many people, many presidents of different Angola, Nigeria, Egypt, Algeria, and all the Central European countries and China.

38:24Many have been through many, many leaders there. And they're all different. They're all different.

38:30Matt Brittin:Did you find some harder to deal with than others? Was the Stanford course enough for everyone? No, some are very, very difficult to deal with when you're not, when I think they're probably not quite sure what their objective is. And it's very difficult to quite chase through because this is business. It's not just politics. So you've got to find a solution. and if they don't know which way they're going, it proves to be impossible to do a deal. We just don't know what to happen. The other thing is you can be very naive. I think most people, and I like to think that people, until proved otherwise, people are trying to deal with you in a reasonably good faith way.

39:18And I remember having a negotiation, I won't tell you who it is, with a person and we could never make a breakthrough. We had this great deal. And I would go around all my people and I'd say, what do you think? And they say, we have no idea. You know, maybe we're not offering enough. So we offer a bit more. And nothing happened until one day we found out that the guy had been arrested and they had found$20 million in cash tucked away in his water tank and that was the problem that we were not actually adding to that cash of money yes but we couldn't find out quite why so i think there are plenty of occasions when you just have to say i can't do it there's just something doesn't work this is fascinating but i'm determined to get on to your life as an author john so you've written a number of very successful books but I'd like to talk a little bit about The Glass Closet which was a slightly different book from the others and one that marked a sort of watershed moment for business.

40:26Can you tell us how that book came about and why writing it was important for you? Well I know I'll tell you exactly how it came about. Gail Rebug, now Baroness Rebug, was the publisher at Random House. And so I knew Philip, her late husband, and we were chatting. And Gail one day said, you need to write a book about this. Short book, but you need to write it. No one's written a book about coming out in business. You need to write it. So I said, fine, I'll do it. And then she said, no, no, I mean, write it now. And so armed with really basically strict instructions from Gail Rebug, that's exactly what I did.

41:15And I wrote a reasonably short book. It's about 30 something thousand words. Gail had said to me, 15 is the minimum, but it's probably too little and 40 is too much. So I wrote it on the basis of my personal experiences, which I found actually quite difficult to write about. But once having written about it, it was easier to talk about it. And then I went round and spoke to a lot of people who had different experiences. I realised that because when I was outed in 2007 in those days people actually wrote letters and they put them in envelopes and posted them I vaguely remember Could you take us John and video FMA

42:02Matt Brittin:just because I think it was such a different world then it's probably hard for people today to understand what it was like the sort of pressure you personally felt as a CEO So with your private life, very private. Today it would seem ridiculous. It does. And indeed, I knew I was gay very early on in my life, obviously. But my mother had always told me, you know, never tell anyone a secret because they'll surely use it against you. And never be a member of too identifiable member of a minority because the majority always had the minority. Powerful coming from her. And so I thought to myself, okay, when I was at Cambridge, it had only just become legal for two men to have sex together in private.

42:53And actually, there's one thing changing the law, quite another thing changing attitudes. So from the late 60s onwards, things really hadn't changed. So I decided I'd just go straight in the closet and stay there. What I hadn't realized is that even in the 2000s, things were changing a bit, but I couldn't identify it. I had a fixed idea in my head. You know, if I came out, I'd be punished. No one would speak to me. I would lose my credibility in business. Everything.

43:28Matt Brittin:I don't remember there being any business leaders who were out in those days. None. And very few celebrities. It was very, very different. Well, and it was, you know, being gay was a pejorative used by the tabloid press, you know, and they loved that sort of stuff. So by the time I was outed, I sort of said to myself, this was the end, only to find out it was but the beginning. You know, first of all, I had this big post bag, a huge post bag, huge. And I had no idea how big it would be. And I also had old fashioned emails and notes and stuff coming. And people talked, they weren't all gay. I mean, people had been, their marriage had been broken up by the Daily Mail.

44:24So they said, you know.

44:26Matt Brittin:Because you were outed by the tabloid. I was. or on the other hand some people wrote to me and said you know we're so pleased at least you don't have to go to prison because they were in prison you know so I had this vast and I said to myself gosh you know I'm absolutely not alone here and then after having been chased by the paparazzi for three days because that was a very very big story globally because no CEO had ever been gay in their life, as it were. Then I went out on the street and people started stopping me and saying, we're right behind you. We fully support you. And I thought to myself, gosh, that's quite something.

45:08And it turned out there were one or two people who couldn't quite bring themselves to use the word gay and they were my friends and they became just my acquaintances. But the vast bulk of people, I just got so many more new friends. So the book was about that. And it was also about talking to people with different experiences and how difficult it was in business to be gay. I mean, I spoke to this extraordinary woman I remember interviewing who every day she took off her ring. She had no pictures of anybody in the office. And she never went to any corporate event because she was always asked to bring her husband.

45:59She had a wife, or about to be wife, partner. And she said, you know, it's very interesting. She said it's just people don't understand that you can't be yourself because you do not conform on so many different axes at the time. Today, all of that's been swept away. And I hope irreversibly. I mean, you never know. But I think it's a very different life. People don't quite understand this. Well, it's very powerful to hear you talk and to remind us about the personal stories behind societal shifts. I think lots of people now do wonder whether some of the changes are irreversible in terms of the premise of The Glass Closet, which is if your colleagues can't be themselves, then you will not be as successful a business as you can be.

46:53You have consistently championed that thread. Tell us a bit more about why you think it is so important that businesses don't lose their focus on creating spaces where everybody can feel well. So first of all, I think it's important to do this with a little bit of pragmatism. So I'd like you to think about, you know, being in Uganda, for example. Of course. It's all very well. You could be a very modern business and say, I want you to be out and free in our office. And then the word gets out that someone's gay and they go outside and they get beaten up. Yes, absolutely. You have to do it with safety first in mind, safety first for your team.

47:33But it's really important that people can have a proper team dialogue. When there is a barrier between people's life, how they behave as inherent to themselves, it's inherent. And what they do in the office, it gets in the way of everything. It gets in the way of just normal social dialogue as well as team performance. And I do think it adds stress. You know, people can get away with it. I mean, there are still people I know. I still know people of slightly younger than me, but by no means young, who are in the closet. And they say, no, I'm, you know, I'm absolutely not going to come out. often it's religious or it's waiting for their family to to pass on you know but there are all sorts of uh complexities so there's no one rule no i mean i i think to say to people you've all got to come out is super naive but creating environments within businesses that they can come out yes exactly that's very important when we look at your career ton it's almost as if You've lived several lives and you've had amazing longevity despite some extraordinarily difficult personal periods, as we've been hearing.

48:51What do you think has been an enabler of that longevity? You know, what advice do you have for others? Well, I think I go back to my mother. My mother always said, you know, everything can be lost. You are who you are. You just carry on. And I do believe that. I mean, I think complaining about states of affairs is you can do it once, but then you should really spend 99 chances in saying, what am I going to do next? As long as you're healthy. Have you ever struggled with resilience and that ability to keep sort of picking yourself up and finding that positive mindset? Yes, because I think it's not just you do need some support from people around you.

49:37You may not know them, but the support of others is really quite important. I don't care what people say. I mean, I don't think, you know, humans are not designed to be sole performers in an empty stage, I don't think. And having friends around you who say, actually, it's great, you know. But there are setbacks every day. I mean, you know, if there aren't, then it's not really clear what you're doing, you know. I mean, there are lots of problems, but they all are challenges, and you've just got to get over them. And sometimes you just say, the losses are the losses. Let's go on to the next thing.

50:21Matt Brittin:You were outed, and we talked about that personal experience, and stepped down from BP. And since when? You've done an incredible array of things across politics and the arts and the sciences and so on. How did you think about who you wanted to be in that next chapter? Because there were two big identity things, right? Stepping out of a big job, which is very identity defining, particularly for men in those days, I think. It's basically you're a business person. But also you were suddenly this different person who you'd had to hide previously. So what did you do to sort of navigate this world that was new in all those respects?

50:58Well, in some ways, because people were quite ageist at the time, I was almost 60 when I was outed. So in any event, I would have had to have probably retired from BP at the magic age of 60. Those days have passed. Different world. So I was thinking to myself, what can I do? And there was one path which was really closed to me when I left BP because of the way I left BP, which was to go to public companies. We couldn't do that. We were too hot to handle. And so I said, OK, the life is all private companies. Let's do this. And the life is about arts as well. So I started to do just that. and I let it be known.

51:53And I had lots of people come up to me and say, start this, do that, do the other. And I started where I would start. And then I was on the board of the Tate. They put me on the board of the Tate. And then the chairman resigned to become a government minister. And so they said, well, you should be chairman. So I said, well, that's very nice. and so which I adored and so that was my starter kit really and then I was picked up by Carlisle private equity firm to start up a renewable energy fund very advanced in 2008 which was great fun.

52:40Matt Brittin:So you're quickly into two new areas but most of which had passions And then they spread and changed and moved around. I think, you know, we're in a very, I suppose, interesting time in the world. Many, many challenges. You have seen a lot of the world go by over the years. You've been active in business and in these additional roles you've talked about in the arts and so forth. You know, where are you on the optimism scale right now and what gives you ground for optimism? Well, I remain optimistic because I do believe the human race is not going to all jump off the edge of a cliff like lemmings.

53:15We're not. We all have different paths. And in the end, something will happen which will make life better for the individuals on the world. And I want to remind people that since I've been alive, the population of the world has gone up by three and a half times and the aggregate wealth has gone up hugely. I mean, there's much less poverty than there used to be, much, much less. And we forget that. And now we're in the middle of potential local conflicts and things like that. But what's new? I mean, we've been through this again and again. We just have to hope that they're limited to local conflicts, not global conflicts.

53:59And I think sense tends to prevail. I'm optimistic in that regard. I like to think too that we will come back to the agenda globally. I think we still have it, which is to make sure that we don't mess up the climate. You know, I'm still active in that with my fund beyond net zero. And I think so all these things are good. Technology is definitely going to be is always our servant. It always looks as if it controls us. But actually, in the end, we control it. you know we can in the end somehow switch it off if we want to I don't think we should but we need to be very aware of the impact of it on people short term the transition is tough and we can't do it the way we did it with the mills in northern Europe in northern England and we just can't do that sort of thing.

54:59We have to do it in a way which is socially acceptable and I think we'll eventually get there.

55:09So you've done an amazing array of different things. Where have you derived the deepest satisfaction, just personal satisfaction? The personal satisfaction is leading a team to something they can't do, they couldn't do by themselves. Nice. And where or when in your career was the learning curve the steepest? Probably at the very beginning. I had to learn that there were many, many different types of people around the world. and you're deeply involved still in technology and frontier research which avenue of research or technology are you personally most excited about i really believe that the combination of ai and quantum chemistry or ai and very particular types of protein repair these are things which will make a very big difference for us in the future.

56:13And we're really at the foothills of it because it's what happens in silicon and what happens in the wet lab. And they have to go hand in hand. And that's very exciting. Who's the most charismatic leader you've ever encountered? Without any doubt, I learned more with the extraordinary leadership of Andy Grove, the late Andy Grove, who really was the person behind the modern semiconductor. Can I ask a follow up?

56:42Matt Brittin:Of course you can. I know this is breaking your rules. Why? What was it you learned from Andy? Well, I was on this board for a decade with Gordon Moore and Andy Grove. And what I learned was that, first of all, comments should never be regarded as free. They are purposeful and they need to be justified. And even if you were a non-executive director, the CEO could come to you and say, I don't agree. what is your basis for this comment? And I thought that was the most extraordinary thing which reminded you that everyone has real accountability as well as responsibility. Fascinating. Which piece of music or art brings you personally greatest joy?

57:28I know it's difficult to choose. You can give me a couple. I'll give you. So I think the piece of music that always gets me into a different space is the four last songs by Richard Strauss. It's both orchestral and vocal and they are magic. I can hear it in your voice how much that means to you. Go on then, give us a piece of art as well since you are an artist. Well, I think the piece of art that really gives me some excitement because I remember it as such an enormous breakthrough was Hockney's Bigger Splash. Yes.

58:06Matt Brittin:Oh, yes. It sort of reminds me of everything in my formative years where I regarded him as a total hero. Yeah. And he was a breakthrough. Yeah, absolutely. A real breakthrough. What do you find of putting either in other leaders or indeed in yourself? well I find so what I find really out of putting is verbosity I really do and maybe as I get older it's you know and what puts what do I think people I worry very much that the time for experience based on time passing it doesn't have a place today. It's not valued you mean? No. Right. It's not valued and so I think one has to take experience and do something very different to it otherwise I think people really don't really regard it very well.

59:06What has been your most exciting or memorable for positive reasons day at work? The day we announced the merger with Amoco. It was the world's largest merger at the time and we'd kept it secret and when we announced and we had we had 500 people working on it but we told them everything and we made sure that there was no point in them gossiping because they knew everything and it was an enormous shock to the world. I can see the smile and the glint in your eyes still we're nearly there what gives you energy after a tough day? just talking to people listening to music going to the theater going to the opera marvellous and then a sort of final segue our producer has a particular attachment to stories relating to animals but I happen to know you have a rather marvellous dog so could you tell us a bit about your dog and any anecdotes you wish to share in relation to Gaia So I have a great dog called Gaia, named after Mother Earth.

1:00:13She is an Afghan hound. Afghan hounds are wonderful. They do actually come from the mountains of Afghanistan. They were hunting hounds. That's been bred out of her. She's just had a litter of 11. Eight survived. We still have two. We're going to keep one. and the wonderful thing is my partner in the spirit of having Gaia as the mother called all of them after Greek gods so we're left with Zeus and Athena Well that is just the perfect note to end on and if people don't know Gaia is a social media star already and she's well worth looking up she's absolutely gorgeous John you've been so generous it's been a really rich conversation thank you so much for coming in and sharing your story with us

1:01:03Matt Brittin:A pleasure Thank you, John. Thank you. Wow, Matt, where do we start? There's a lot packed in there. He's our first Lord as well. I mean, I was a bit starstruck, if I'm honest, because I remember him as the CEO of BP. And I also remember being quite emotional seeing what happened to him being outed by the tabloid press. And it's so hard if you're younger or if you weren't around at that time to realise how far the world has changed. And I know it's not perfect and that there are still people at work who find it difficult to come out and so on. But he changed everything and it was very painful for him at the time.

1:01:41And it was fascinating to hear what he went through and how he dealt with it. Yeah, he used the phrase that coming out was just the beginning. And I thought, what a hopeful comment to make for lots of us who might struggle with some aspect of ourselves feeling incompatible with expectations socially or professionally. He's very articulate, isn't he, about both his own personal experiences, but also some amazing stories about the world. I mean, we had some really deep conversations about business and how to be effective in business. I really liked his focus on clarity of purpose yeah if you have that clarity of purpose it's much easier to bring people along with you and then he was also very clear around the importance of creating teams where people can bring themselves into that context without fear and

1:02:39Matt Brittin:inhibition yeah I think you know a couple of the themes that we have come back to again and again ourselves you know listening and empathy as a key characteristic of a leader and also that that point as you said it's the clarity of purpose he talks about and the collaboration I was really struck by this notion if you're a leader and you visibly exclude someone the rest of the team is losing trust with you and the moment when he became CEO and he said all his peers were kind of smarter than him and older than him and more experienced but it was easy because of the way he built those relationships um going all the way back to the touchy feely uh yes thank you going going all the way back to that touchy feely course at Stanford you got the sense of that being a real pivotal moment for him yes and good grief did he have some interesting negotiators to practice what he learned on I can't get that picture out of my head of Gaddafi and what it was it was orange chiffon over khakis I mean I was not expecting that um and then of course the stories around negotiating with Putin.

1:03:42Yeah. And, you know, actually just the sort of the different cultural context in which you might end up having to have a business conversation. I thought he was really fascinating on that. Some memorable lines about Putin.

1:03:55Matt Brittin:Yeah. I mean, yes. Sometimes punching you in the face is a way of saying hello. And that notion of like trying to destabilise your opponent in negotiation. I think, you know, he could probably do a series on negotiation that would be absolutely world-class. And I think also that sort of sense of having real clarity of your agenda, repeating it and repeating it and repeating it until even you're sick of it. The other thing I think I was really struck by is this is a man who really knows how to take the long view. And whether it was in the oil industry, realising that climate change was real and that they were going to need to play their part in addressing that and making that a long-term priority.

1:04:36Matt Brittin:I'd say her time and time again taking a bigger picture longer term view as being something that really guides him yeah that prompts two thoughts to me one is the point he also made around the value to the attractiveness of BP as a business when it took what he felt was a morally right stance on climate this reminder that if your business that is perceived to do the right thing the best people will want to come and work with you that was just a really good concrete example of that in action. But I also thought that he did give us a slight warning, despite being clearly a deeply optimistic person about the fact that we've sort of perhaps started to devalue experience and the ability to take that long view.

1:05:18And he doesn't sort of criticise lightly. So I thought that was quite a sobering comment.

1:05:25Matt Brittin:I think that's right. I do think, you know, the big picture is incredibly helpful when you're, particularly when you're dealing with short term crisis and many people are dealing with that sort of thing now stepping back and seeing you know what actually you know we've seen a massive reduction in poverty globally we've seen huge changes in education standards and so on and so forth and going back to him as a child um he referred to her a number of times didn't he you know the powerful figure is of his uh hungarian mother um having um been in concentration camps uh always looking forward and maybe that's where the long view comes from, sort of always looking forward.

1:06:01Matt Brittin:And she clearly shaped his agenda and his identity as a leader. Yes. And this idea that it's who you are that matters. What a conversation. So what do we know now? I think one thing I do know is when you're negotiating with someone and you're not quite sure why you're not getting anywhere, check whether they've got $20 million in their water tank. Brilliant. I'm going to hang on to that one. thanks for watching keep in touch and let us know your questions and suggestions on our socials or on what we don't know at boxlight.io we love hearing from you look forward to seeing you again soon thank you so much for listening