Why The Best Leaders Make Wrong Decisions | What We Don't Know with Matt Brittin & Hayaatun Sillem

24:30So Matt, come on, we've got to dwell on some of it more. Give us an insight into the discussions you're having around the leadership table right now.

24:37Matt Brittin:Well, firstly, what I'm doing is talking to the local team. So I think my first rule of leadership is always listen. What actually is the situation? So in the period I'm talking to them and trying to understand where things stand, And the authorities visit our country manager and our head of YouTube and basically ask, who can I arrest? Now, I won't go into all the details about how these organizations operate, but our decision making on policies about what we do and don't have on YouTube is made globally across countries. It's not made by somebody in country, but it was a very clear signal, you know, we are looking to act on criminal charges.

25:16Matt Brittin:So that was one concern. Anyway, basically, my kind of listening and observing what was going on summary was our team is going to be locked up. Our bank account is about to be seized. We've got a lot of notices that we're not in compliance with in terms of what content you can find, particularly on YouTube. And we're not going to be able to pay our suppliers or work with our customers. I mean, this is this is the sharp end of leadership. Right. And so we had all that stuff. And then I talked to lots of peer organizations, you know, who were facing sanctions, having to move out. We also had sanctions in other countries about what we could say about Russia.

25:52Matt Brittin:So it was a very, very complicated situation. And again, what I found incredibly helpful, having got that intel, was I talked to our senior colleagues in California, particularly Ruth Porat, CFO. I don't want to go into too much detail of it, the why's and where for. But with the CEO, with the CFO, with our senior kind of product teams, I would come and say, right, this is the situation. here's all the things i have to tell you i don't think i can mitigate any of those risks you know you know and keep the operation running i just can't see a way to do that and they asked lots of very smart questions made some sensible suggestions but in the end concluded we just have to do what the right thing to do is and for me the right thing to do is number one people uh number two the operations and number three the services so we were able to help our people get to safety if they wish to some tough decisions for employees like many companies you know if you stay we can't guarantee we can pay you because our bank account's no longer in our control so um there was that kind of side of personal security and tough tough choices for the people on the ground there many of whom left um and then keeping our services running we decided that we had to hold to our standards we weren't going to comply with government requests but strangely enough i think because of the popularity of youtube in russia uh it's still running there to this day with no people on the ground.

27:10Matt Brittin:And that's, I think, a helpful thing because many people in Russia can access BBC, Al Jazeera and other news services. But the leadership lesson, if I come back out of the detail, for me was in those moments of huge uncertainty, clarity around the sort of mission and values and alignment with our leadership team, which took virtually no time at all, actually. I'm really grateful to be in a company that could do that. It really helped us. Wow, that is a very sort of, it's an example that really focuses the mind. It's an example I would call acute uncertainty. I think what we're now experiencing is a period of chronic uncertainty.

27:49It doesn't go away. So you have these acute peaks, but actually you're living with chronic uncertainty. And I'm interested in what you do as a leader to make sure that doesn't lead to a kind of erosion of your ability to keep on being the shock absorber. because often in a crisis, people can step up and manage their way kind of through. It's like we'll find our inner hero at that moment. Well, not all of us do we find out whether there is one. But, you know, that's a different thing from day after day, finding there's this relentless news cycle that the scale of risk seems to just get bigger and bigger, like the frame of reference grows all the time.

28:28And so when you have to live through chronic uncertainty, what have you done to try to make sure you still have fresh legs?

28:35Matt Brittin:I think this applies to kind of anybody in this world of chronic uncertainty. Don't forget, you know, whether you're a boss or you're just trying to scrape together, you know, enough money to keep your family fed. And many people are in that situation. You go back to sort of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And I think I learned a lot about my physical health requirements from being an athlete many years ago. You know, in elite sport, I knew that if I didn't sleep well, if I didn't eat well, you know, food is fuel in this context. and I didn't look after myself you know having friends and other people I could draw on when I was down then I wasn't going to perform and I think the same applies in the world of organizations and work and particularly for leaders I think what's different for a leader for me is everything you do every gesture every time you're a bit snappy when you look tired people pick up on those signals it's amplified through the organization so it's even more important to sleep, to eat, exercise in my case, to try to stay healthy and stay grounded with friends.

29:40Matt Brittin:And I think about that in terms of a sort of personal boardroom. You mentioned earlier, you turn to your mum, you turn to colleagues when you needed help. And I think I have that sort of sense as well. Personal boardroom in terms of people I can trust from the business side, I think I'm getting this wrong. Can you give me a view? My colleague, Yonja, who was my marketing director, she was the yang to my ying, if you will. She would tell me when I was being an idiot. She would watch out for me if I started to look like I was tired in those times and was really, really helpful. So having people like that who you can rely on, I think, really, really helps.

30:14Matt Brittin:But it starts with the basics of trying to make sure you sleep and eat and stay healthy. Yeah. Gosh, my head's going in three different directions because I want to pick up on a number of things you said. But if we stay with your example of Yonche, I think that is also something that when you think about how you cope with uncertainty is super important, which is to have cognitive diversity around you. So I have always valued having people who sit alongside me who just, all their instincts, same value, same integrity, but their instincts are a little bit different to mine. You know, if you are all agreeing all the time, this is not a good sign in your leadership group.

30:53And so when I think of those times when we've had real dilemmas, So sometimes uncertainty, it's like background noise. You can actually just carry on doing what you're doing. And sometimes that uncertainty really, really requires you to listen and engage with it. And in those times, I've always thought it's very important to sort of segment your life and make sure there is one segment where you can have the totally honest conversation, where you can go to your darkest place. if you look worst case scenarios in the eye, they're automatically a bit less scary than they were before. And you need to have people that you can do that with because unless you do that, you're not really doing the right thing by the organisation.

31:37Matt Brittin:Can you give us an example of one of those moments, if you're happy to share, where you look that in the eye? Well, say, I mean, you know, it's always difficult when you want to talk about worst case scenarios because not all organisations want to have those ventilated in public. But if I think of a couple of times, but it's been a real financial consequence of something. So you're in a position where the worst case scenario really could be quite serious. People might not get paid, for example. Suppliers might not get paid. Staff might not find there's money in their account on payday. Those kinds of scenarios.

32:06Be able to talk with a small number of incredibly trusted people about what you will do even if that scenario arises and then track back and think about all the things you can do to stop it arising. you are in a much better place than if you have the same conversation but never really confront well how bad could it be and so I always think that that is a another useful technique to use when life has chronic uncertainty you've got to be in that kind of chess mindset where you look at all possibilities you think about if this then what um and I always think you know if you look your problem in the eye, straight in the eye, it's a bit less powerful over you.

32:47Matt Brittin:Quite often sort of thinking about what's the worst that could happen and having somebody play that out is helpful, I agree. But there's something else you mentioned there, which I think is essential in leading in uncertainty, which is dissenting voices. People, I mean, my example is people who tell you when you're being an idiot. And one of the jobs I think of a leader in today's world of uncertainty is to create an environment where it's okay to ask challenging questions of the leader so what do I mean by that if you're asked a challenging question in a public forum you can get shirty sort of close it down or whatever or you can say you know what that's a really tough question for us and I'm not sure I've got a good enough answer for you but I'll tell you what I'm going to do I'm going to come back and really want to engage with that that's good and even better you can celebrate the question and say can I just say thank you for saying that's not easy to say those things in these forums and And I think because the intelligence you need is all around an organisation, you need people who can tell you what's going wrong, particularly on things to do with culture where it's very intangible.

33:49Matt Brittin:So I think creating an environment where you can get confronting scenarios or dissenting voices or people who tell you when you're getting it wrong, really important. Do you know, Matt, having listened to you talk about that, and now that my emotion feels a little bit more under control, I'd like to revisit that story I told you about how I experienced this moment of I'm not okay during the pandemic. If you're happy, let's go. Great. So I got to this point in 2020 where I could just feel I wasn't myself. You know, your internal radar says, I do not feel the way I'm supposed to feel. And I couldn't put more colour or structure on it than that.

34:27And then I started finding myself asking, is this really worth it? Do I need to be in a leadership role when it's this hard to, it takes this much effort to get up each day and to be fine for the purposes of the people that need me to be fine?

34:42Matt Brittin:How was that manifesting itself day to day? Were you just not wanting to get out of bed? What was the... No, I've got a real sense of duty. So like clockwork, I would show up, be present, be fine. but the interior experience was getting more and more threadbare and I felt I guess you could say depressed I felt despondent I felt this this this lack of belief in what I was doing and it got to the point where I knew that I was on the brink of unraveling and so I raised it in a group that I have benefited from for many years which is a group of peer coaches people who have sort of comparable life experiences are all out there doing big jobs in the world and where we've built up a kind of trust and understanding amongst ourselves I'm a huge fan of peer coaching and I can remember it was one of these wretched zoom calls which of course were just such a feature of life and I said to them I'm not okay and it had such an effect because I am not the kind of person that ever ever says I'm not okay I might say I'm having a real really difficult time I'm this is such a pain but I'm never anything other than okay so for me that was like an apps it's like you know sending out a flare out in the ocean and of course my wonderful peer coaches responded to that so what happened in that moment so you say that you're on this call is there a moment of silence and then somebody let in what happened no there is that moment of people just gathering you up in their arms has to be virtually in that context and telling you that it's absolutely okay that you're not okay and that you've done the right thing by saying that.

36:27And I had a similar conversation with my mum who just listened. You know that thing where someone just listens in that very active, open, empathetic state.

36:39Matt Brittin:Not easy for a man to do I'd say but yes I know people who do that and they're almost all women well interestingly I think the fact that I am a woman and an outlier in terms of people in leadership roles in my world was a key factor in why I didn't ask for help sooner you felt you needed to demonstrate strength I felt that the whole experience of being in a leadership role as someone who was multiply underrepresented it meant that I had to signal strength not strength that wasn't my strength strength is consistent with who I am but I felt that by saying I'm not sure I'm coping it would lead to a kind of reinforcement of stereotypes that I was not prepared to put up with but interestingly that's also what pulled me through because I went through this thought process where I said to myself I'm very good at debating things in my own head we're learning this it's it's it's you're going to hear more about my inner voice over time um i said to myself if i step away from leadership because i don't need the kind of dopamine hit that comes from being a leader my ego does not require me to have the fancy job title and to walk into a room knowing that i'm the ceo if i if i step out of leadership because i don't need that who's going to be left who are the people who will stay in leadership when it's really tough and i said i'm not prepared for that to be the reason i stepped down.

38:04If I step down, or if I get to the point where I choose not to be in a leadership role, it's got to be for a positive reason. And that pulled me through along with my wonderful peer support network.

38:14Matt Brittin:So you reconnected to that motivation. But can I just ask you, you know, you shared when you said it's not okay to your peer group, to your mum, how quickly did the inner feeling that you had change after you'd said that? Instantly. Instantly. It broke the spell. By saying I'm not okay and realising it was absolutely the right thing to have said that to it almost it's like a moment of clarity that I just needed and also because then I was able to prioritize myself and some self-care which I had totally neglected throughout the pandemic um it was a bit of time off then oh no come on um everyone will do it in their different way I just it was just the point at which I then started to articulate what I required from people in a different way and to create some space to invest in my well-being.

39:08So yeah I think the lesson from that okay what what I know now as a result of that experience is you have to get help self-monitoring if you're in a leadership role because sometimes you're thinking so hard about everyone else's needs that you just stop being alive to what your own needs are and the way I talk about it now in terms of when I'm sharing that experience with other people is I say if you're a leader you're saying I'm prepared to go up front and drive the bus so I need to ask myself am I safe to drive the bus and so we all need these little hooks that will help us to focus on what's important and that's one of my hooks am I safe to drive the bus if I'm going to say I'm I'm going to effectively be responsible for other people's welfare.

39:54I've just got to check in on myself first and make sure I've got other people who help me do that. So that was my learning.

40:00Matt Brittin:Thank you. That's a really personal and very vulnerable thing to share, particularly, I think, as you say, given that you're an outlier leader as well. Can I ask you, though, in the years subsequently, have you found yourself, therefore, asking for help more easily? Maybe it hasn't been as extreme, but is that part of your sort of leadership repertoire now? I think proactively asking for help has now become part of my, as you say, leadership repertoire. So the marvellous thing about asking for help is that I have always, always found, you people can't help you, they're kind of happy you asked.

40:33And so I actually have almost gone full circle where I start thinking at the outset, you know, who can I ask for help when I'm facing a new challenge? So I've learned to love that side of life, but it took me a while to pivot from that is showing a vulnerability that I don't dare to show because I want to demonstrate that I've got this to the point where I feel it's a strength in leadership to ask for help. Anyway, do you know what, Matt, I feel like we've had a very deep and serious conversation about leadership. Leadership has its fun side. So come on, I'm going to switch it up a bit. Tell me, where are you getting leadership inspo from at the moment?

41:13Like, are you watching something? Are you reading something? Have you met somebody that has given you a new angle on leadership?

41:21Matt Brittin:Well, I'm in a strange place because I'm on my gap year. You know, I stepped down from a big leadership role 38 years late into my gap year. So actually, I've been enjoying not sort of leading, but I have been reflecting quite a lot. and you know one of the lovely things I've had more time to do is connect with people who've maybe gone off to do startups that I used to work with or old friends and people are all kinds of different stages and I almost became a bit of a go-to person for sort of midlife career crisis conversations and at the same time my two kids who were in their early 20s were starting out in the world of work and they and their mates were sort of asking for it well it's such a huge question for that whole generation i mean it's and you know the thing that the thing that has occurred to me uh through this about leadership sort of inspirations and lessons learned it made me think about what you know who were my mentors who did i learn from and um i've told you this before because i said it at a leaving party i had what i realized i looked around the room and we had all these people who had become you know like you friends over years of sort of working together and going through some of these tough times together and i realized that you know i'd learned from all of them And so I said, you know, I'm an LLM, not a large language model, but a leadership learning model.

42:36Matt Brittin:And what I've done is I picked up all kinds of things from all kinds of people, you know, through my career, not just senior leaders, actually. Quite often, some of the more junior people with their curiosity and their tough questions and their kind of being demanding. And I think that was really helpful to me to understand that, you know, I've not really had like a single mentor. There are individuals that have really inspired me, people like Susan Majiski, a fantastic woman who led YouTube, sadly, no longer with us. Carolyn McCall, who became a friend in a sea of EasyJet and of The Guardian and of ITV, really one of our best sort of business leaders and all kinds of people in between.

43:15Matt Brittin:So I think for me, that sort of leadership learning models, part of the reason I want to do this with you is I think it's all about listening and learning all the time. Yeah, well, in that spirit, I have been ferreting around in the world of different things to read and different sources of inspiration. So I think the fact we're having these kinds of conversations has, I guess, helped me to put a leadership lens on things that I hadn't previously thought about in that sense. I want to ask you about this, though, because I know you and I have talked about sort of literature. Yeah. The stuff you can read about leadership.

43:48Matt Brittin:And I quite often have found, you know, bits and pieces like a magpie and all those different things. and I quite often recommend different things, but you generally don't find a lot in those books. Oh, you're exposing me now. This is very early in our conversation to expose me. I must say I'm not the biggest fan of books on leadership and management. So I do read them and I'm sure anything you read you can take something away from. But what I have found nine times out of ten is you're not speaking to me. if I took this advice it would not have the effect that it would have seemingly for the person that's written the book so it might just be I'm very arrogant I'm very unimaginative but it might also be that I do have a different experience like experience of life my mind is different people have worked in leadership roles where the only previous vote were brigadiers and rear admirals but to but to prove that that i'm i'm not a one-trick pony here right so i i've been reading a book um by zach brown so zach um first name terms we're not actually first names but i'm going to call him zach for now um why not he's an informal kind of guy so zach for those who don't know uh leads mclaren racing one of the formula one teams um that has had an amazing turnaround in its fortunes and Zach has been at the helm, no pun intended, driving that transformation.

45:16And so because I have an interest in Formula One, I was reading this, it's an autobiography, but telling the story of how he's managed to deliver, as I like to call it, the papaya dream. So again, for anyone who's wondering where papaya comes into this, papaya is the colour of the livery for McLaren. And this year, McLaren delivered not just the driver's championship, but the Constructors' Championship too. And this story takes it up to the 2024 Constructors' Championship win, which had been the first time that McLaren had won that in decades. And what's interesting is, like, Zac Brown is not a person that I would ever think of as, you know, that's my personal leadership role model because we're so like each other.

45:59Matt Brittin:He's quite an alpha male sort of character. I don't know if he's an alpha male, but he's certainly a man. And he's certainly a strong personality, a big presence in the paddock, you know, not afraid to share his view, you know, kind of. But also somebody who's a people person, I would say. But what I really loved about reading the book, I don't think you would primarily read it for its literary merits. It's very much written in his voice. And what I loved about it was that he was just so unapologetically himself. Right. There's no airs and graces. says no I've tried to transform myself from this into that it's I'm me and I've learned how to get the best out of me by working on myself yes but by leaning into my strengths and surrounding myself with people who are totally different in order that my weak spots can be compensated for by theirs and that we can sort of tension off each other and actually it's very charming in that respect and I think very authentic.

46:58So I found it quite an uplifting read and an example of if you truly, truly embrace you, I do me, you do you as leaders, it can get you a long way. But I was also very inspired by his values around loyalty, around treating people well, around fairness. And Formula One, it's so fiercely competitive that you don't talk so much about that side of it. But that came through really clear. You could sort of feel him always shouting those. And then just to show the diversity of sources that you can get leadership lessons from, I'm going to give you my other literary example, which I've just read. And it's about as different as you can get on the spectrum of literature.

47:44So a very good friend of mine said, this is a singular book, you must read it. So it's Jacqueline Hartman's book, I Who Have Never Known Men and I don't know if you've come across it I haven't it's a dystopian novel quite haunting, quite affronting I don't want to say too much about it because I think it spoils it if you know what's going to be there in terms of storyline and things but it's a very, very unusual stimulus to think about leadership and it's a so I'll sort of set it up for you you meet these women who are living effectively imprisoned by silent men who wield all authority now it's it's got nuance in it don't think this is just about you know a feminist voice it clearly is a very feminist book but it's it's it's a really startling piece of writing that I would highly recommend but what's so fascinating is it shows how entirely leadership is decoupled from power and it shows you the that leadership is also not about delivering an outcome necessarily you and I in our working life must have spent so much time thinking about how do we deliver impact how do we live at the bottom deliver the bottom line and this is about leadership for the sake of humanity leadership for the sake of just living well or living better and it's also a story that is quite interesting from the perspective of talking about or prompting thoughts around self-empowerment and self-sufficiency.

49:23So often as a leader, you're looking to other people to validate your leadership. But actually, this puts a really different spin in it. So I just thought those are two completely wildly different examples of interesting books that have prompted my leadership musings. Anything in that category for you?

49:41Matt Brittin:Well, I mean, firstly, I think it's brilliant and it illustrates something I think is really important, which is, you know, you need to be a kind of magpie. And one of the things we do know about leaders and CEOs in particular is they tend to read a lot more than the average person. I think that's certainly true for me as well. So I love those two. And I'm going to make sure we put them in the show notes and I'll read both. A different one for me. We touched on this earlier. Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker. and actually had the privilege of interviewing him some time ago. You can look at Younger Matt on YouTube with him if you like.

50:18Matt Brittin:But you shouldn't read it if you're a parent of young children. But other than that, everyone should read it because it tells you what we know now about how sleep plays a role in our health, in our emotional well-being, in our problem-solving capabilities, in how good-looking we are. And I just found it fascinating. I read the early research and started, as my kids were growing up, to try to put some of those practices in place in terms of going to bed earlier, sleeping for longer, cold bedroom, no screens and stuff. And I found it transformative. I wish I'd known it when I was an athlete. So I find that that's kind of helpful.

50:54Matt Brittin:Again, that's the sort of thing I read. It's not kind of, this is how to be a leader. It's like some human stuff. And I think right now we need leaders to be the best humans we can be. Yeah, we need leaders on a good night's sleep. I mean, there's enough dodgy leadership out there right now to wish everyone a good night's sleep. but hopefully no one is getting sleepy listening to this and I would love to hear from some of our listeners actually because, you know, I do really enjoy talking to you, Matt but this is not about me just talking to you and you talking to me. This is about a wider conversation.

51:22Matt Brittin:What are these people doing? Yeah, so I'd love to hear some thoughts from some of the people who have been listening to us and going on their own leadership journeys. Yeah.

51:35Right, let's take some of our audience questions.

51:37Matt Brittin:And so here's a great question. When you're overwhelmed, how do you stop your fear leaking into the team? Great question. I love that one. Always a good rule of thumb. Control the controllables. Focus on what you do have control over. So there are lots of things that will be adding to your stress. Zone in on the things you do have control over. and also remember that any problem no matter how big can be broken down into a series of smaller pieces and so if you can independently make sure that you're going through that thought process and then figure out which of those chunks you should work through with your team and which of those chunks you need to take away and deal with someone sorry I'm just waving this if you can work out which of those chunks you need to work through with your team which of those chunks you need to take somewhere else where you're going to get help and support.

52:30I think that helps create the feeling that you do have some agency, you do have some control. And so that takes away the sense of overwhelm.

52:38Matt Brittin:So break the problem down to stop it overwhelming you. I guess I'd add, remember the signals you send unconsciously to the team and try to kind of keep that sort of calmness because what you do amplifies right through the organisation. Oh yes, very important. Okay, time for another question. I was going to ask a question. Time for another question, Matt. One for you this time. Is decisive more important than being right? Wow. In a world of uncertainty, I think most of the time taking decisions faster is more helpful than being really deliberate. Two types of decisions. One's where you can't really row back.

53:17Matt Brittin:So you're committing to a big capital investment. You're doing M &A. You're deciding whether it's It's time for somebody to move on, whatever. Hard to reverse them. You've got to commit and make them work. And then there are other decisions, many of them, where you can say, well, let's try this. And if it doesn't work, we can try that. So I think recognise the title of decisions. But right now in uncertainty, being decisive is pretty critical. Sometimes an act of decision not to do something or to delay is also a good decision. I have a caveat. When it comes to people decisions, being right is more important than being decisive.

53:50Matt Brittin:Ah, OK, this is a really good wrinkle. I think on values questions that set the tone, you're so spot on. And hiring. We've all been there. Yeah. The most high impact thing you can do as a leader is hire great people, isn't it? So getting that right. OK, so some decisions around people we've concluded are extra important. OK, time for another question. What's the difference between resilience and denial in leadership? Wow. I don't think you ever want to be in the denial space as a leader. I'm a big fan of look your scariest problem in the eye and it's less scary after that. And really, to be resilient, you have to have confronted downside risk as well as upside opportunity.

54:36You cannot live with your head in the sand as a leader. Bad things will befall you.

54:42Matt Brittin:totally agree um denial is absolutely useless you've got to understand the facts you've got to confront them and you've got to ask for help in order to come up with the best way forward and this is even more important in this crazy complicated world we're living in okay great i have another one from our audience um i'm a leader but i'm not confident i know where we should go where we should be heading and i don't know how to tell my team that i don't know um this is something I really see a lot when people move into a leadership position particularly if you're appointed from amongst your peers and I think the temptation is always to feel like I need to show them I've got all the answers because I'm the leader and they're looking at me and you know they won't respect me if I don't have the answers I think the reverse is true I think that when you say I don't know how we're going to do this or I don't know quite what the answer is here and I need your help it creates the space for the team to step up and it creates a sense of trust that this isn't somebody who's going to spoon feed me everything.

55:40Matt Brittin:This is somebody who I'm going to be able to help. And I think that brings teams together. So I think it's really an essential ingredient. It feels scary at the time to say, I don't know. And how can you help me? And if you flip it, there is nothing more toxic than a leader who visibly thinks they know all the answers. You will not have a team in five minutes. When I was a consultant years ago, we were working for a big industrial company, let's say. And the story of the CEO was he was flying in their corporate jet, never a good sign, and they were flying into a storm and he told the pilot how he should be flying the plane.

56:15Matt Brittin:And I just thought, I think I know him. I think I know this guy. There's a company I don't want to work for. OK, let's take another audience question here. How do you stop one crisis decision from defining your whole leadership story? wow, I hope this person hasn't had to take a crisis decision and now feels that's all they've got. Yeah, it's so interesting because actually when you navigate a crisis, almost whether you succeeded or failed, people want to hear you talk about it. So if you're not careful, you can be known as that person associated with that crisis. So I think you really got to ask yourself, why am I here as a leader?

56:56And if you're here as a leader to continuously deliver good things with and through other people, your story should naturally evolve so if you're finding that that's how you're pigeonholed I think it's time to take a step back and ask yourself are you really focusing on what's important in leadership and then if you feel that what you're doing is great but the story's not getting out get yourself some great PR.

57:19Matt Brittin:That's a really good really good advice something that occurs to me when you're talking there is a lesson I learned from some actors once which is get your attention off yourself. You might think it's your whole leadership story. Other people have got plenty else going on in their lives and they probably aren't paying as much attention. So sort of over worrying about things sometimes can be a real challenge. I'd say get your attention off yourself, focused on being the leader you want to be. Yesterday's news is gone. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this episode. Please do subscribe and follow us on socials.

57:49We'd love to hear from you and you can get involved via the audience Q &As and our audience polls, and we look forward to hearing from you. Thank you so much.

57:57Matt Brittin:And if you want to listen to more episodes, make sure you subscribe. Thanks so much for joining us. And see you next week.