Paul Heyman

32:10Yeah. In terms of the character, you know this. You can be sick and you're backstage and you have a ruddy nose and a terrible cold and you had a terrible day and the dog peed on the carpet and the kids just pissed you off and you got cut off in traffic and it's just one of those days where everything goes wrong and you feel like crap. And then you walk through that curtain. You're on. Yeah, it's go time. Yeah, yeah. That guy's never sick. That guy never feels bad. That guy didn't learn like I've never learned from my successes. I don't think there's a success I've ever had that I've truly learned from.

32:59I learned from all my failures. I learned from being so screwed up. I learned from all the things I've been through. And that's where the wise man developed. Experience. Yes. Yeah, that's our best teacher. Through adversity comes greatness. Yes. And that guy has only parlayed his success. He keeps hitting blackjack. He survives. Yeah, he's a survivor. He moves forward. Although that you have in common. What, survival? Particular talent, yes. But that's...

33:41I'm the son of a Holocaust survivor. Yeah. and a street kid from the Bronx who grew up during the Depression on Rochambeau Avenue. So all I know is that no matter what, I got to wake up tomorrow morning. And then I got a fighting chance. And as long as I make it through the day, as long as I don't catch a bullet in the head, I have a shot tomorrow. So no matter how bad today is, if I'm alive tomorrow, old. Everybody better watch out. And when do you think you got that perspective? I mean, was there a particular moment? Were you young? Was there something you saw that, I mean, many lessons that your parents taught you?

34:31Love to hear some of those. When did I learn it? In the womb.

34:41So you're just ingrained in you always. Oh, yeah. Yeah. As much as I might. And with that, I'm sorry, with that, does there go gratitude? Towards my parents? No, no, life. Like waking up, like your whole thing is waking up the next day that you're good to have another day, right? Like is there, is it all about the fight or is there gratitude involved? like what's the total perspective well for for how many years now every time we see each other and i say hey steph how you doing how are you doing what's my answer that you're blessed but i'll tell you when that started is after you had kids of course i mean that's when that's the first time i ever heard you say that you were blessed it was not the answer i was expecting when i said how you were that first time uh afterwards the first time you said that you were blessed and It was beautiful.

35:33I loved it. And you have said it every time we've seen each other since. I don't know how anybody can do a Make-A-Wish visit and go home to healthy children and not understand how truly blessed they are. Do you know the story about the kid who only had a couple weeks to live at the Rumble and made it to Mania? Do you know this story? I know of a few, unfortunately, but I don't know the one that you're talking about. Brock and I did a Make-A-Wish visit.

36:19And it was a young man, he was 11 years old, with the wisdom of this 80-year-old little Jewish man. Like the things he said were like prophetic. And we went to visit him and we were told he's going to get tired real fast.

36:46These are within the last couple of weeks.

36:52And I went to visit him and the kid was so upbeat. as so many of these children are. And of course, the parents, you look in their eyes and you just sit there and say, thank God that's not me. Because the soul has been ripped out of them. It's their child. If your kid has an allergy attack, you go, I wish this was my allergy attack. Imagine that. No, I can't. So we're in the room, and the kid starts talking about Brock's storyline and how much he likes it. He can't wait to see who's going to win the Rumble. And the parents are watching this kid just come out of his shell. And the mother or the father, I should remember whom, but I don't, starts crying and the kid goes, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, we talked about this.

37:47And I look around and he goes, they keep crying. And I was like, wow. And I don't mean to lecture the kid, but I was like, You've got to cut him a little bit of slack. And the kid looks at me and he says, I don't have that much time. And I'm not going to spend a minute of it miserable. I'm going to love every single moment I have. I was like, whew. Wow. Okay. And I'm trying to now keep my composers. I just had children. Yeah. You know, my children. Changes your whole perspective. Babies. And I'm like, oh, my God. Right? And as the conversation goes on, the kid says, hey, when's Mania? And we tell him the date, and he goes, I'll be there.

38:31And this is just one of those moments where you say, well, of course you will be. And I can't wait to see you there. And we did some press panel the week of Mania. And, oh, by the way, how surprising. Brock wasn't asked to be on the panel because we didn't want the reporters to end up with how Mike Tyson was when he was a boxer. That's Brock in front of the media. So I was asked to do the panel, and Brock was backstage. And as I'm looking down, because you never look at the front row, you look at the back row. And I'm looking, and I see in the back row, oh, my God, that's... He made it. The parents.

39:14Oh? It's the parents. Oh, my God, they came to Mania on behalf of the kid. Oh, my God. I have to say hello to them. I have to pay my respects. And as the press conference is ending, I see the mother walk out, the father walk out, and there's the kid. And I'm blown away. To this day, and I'm a fairly articulate man. I don't have the words to describe it. Can't convey how it made me feel. And I grabbed, I think it was Jimmy Tillis at the time, I was our head of security. Could have been, yeah. Somebody, and I just said, please bring them backstage. And I ran to Brock. I go, Brock, the kid's here.

39:58The kid's here. He goes, what kid? I go, the kid from the room. He goes, you've got to be kidding me. I said, Brock, the kid is here. And the kid comes backstage, and the first thing he says, he says, he goes, bet you didn't think I was going to make it to mania, right? And what are we going to do? They go, no. No, we do. Of course you're going to make it to mania. Wow. And the kid, Brock comes in and the kid hugs Brock and he goes like this and he grabs him. He goes, gotcha, right? And as soon as he says gotcha, both parents just start weeping openly. And the kid goes like this. Hey, hey, we talked about this.

40:40And it's like, wow. And the kid looks up and he says, you know, they got to stop doing this. And I looked at him and I went, can I ask you a question so I learn from you? And he goes, absolutely. And I said, why do they need to stop doing it? And he says, you're only as happy as your saddest child. Oh, my God. Oh, my goodness. That's a line. That's it. That's it. Now I start crying in the room. Right? And I could not stop hugging my kids when I got home from that trip. because I never understood how blessed I am. I don't know blessed by whom. I don't know if it's a deal I cut with the devil or if I'm blessed by a God that I don't understand.

41:35But all I know is my children are healthy, and everything else in life is relative to that. So when people say, people think it's a gimmick. Like, when I go, I'm a blessed man. and they go, oh, that's a shtick. It's not my shtick. I know it's not your shtick. I'm a blessed man. Because also every time since your children have been born, that's all you talk about are your kids, which I love. And I love hearing about them and their stories and who's like who and how smart they are and how savvy they are and what Jacob did and what Azalea did and then the dog and the boyfriend. I mean, you know, it's just like I love how much you love your kids.

42:21Yeah, well, they're far better people than I am. I feel like that's the goal as a parent, right? Right? You want your kids better than you. Oh, and they are. Right. I mean, I always said bigger, better, stronger, faster. I didn't really think in any other way. Smarter, of course. Yeah, smarter. My number one goal in life is every day to be worthy of being their father. because biologically that that's the easy so is there ever a moment where that wavered where you realized where you had a decision to make in the moment of something happening that you did or didn't do every day is it up every day well yeah i know we all screw up but i mean like a big something where you're like you know what the me of the past would have done this but i'm not doing that for this reason no no well you know it did that goes to two things One, I've pretty much avoided the really bad parental screw-ups in life because I don't think I'll ever – there's no way in life I'll ever measure up to my parents.

43:25In the parental lottery of life, I hit the jackpot. We have to get back to some of those lessons. Yeah. I just – I had the greatest mother and the greatest father anyone could ever pray for. and I will never never be the parent that either one of them was to me I won't I just I'll fall short of that every time and I just want to be worthy of being their father because that's what they deserve they're my kids so one even if I make a mistake we'll all three learn from it we'll all three benefit like hey did you see that I screwed up Oh, I've always called out mine too. Yeah. Yeah. Do you still love me?

44:09Do you still respect me? Do you still want to be my kid? All right. So you know what you can learn? It's okay to screw up. It's all right. And you're going to. Yeah. Every day. We all do. Just don't do the same one twice. It's so interesting to me because you are this strong, I'm forgetting how you described yourself. You get out there and you're just this one of one character. I assume that's you all the time and that you would be so comfortable with yourself. So you're saying this and I'm just, I can't believe that this is the same guy that everyone listens to. Every story you tell, it just feels, it's surreal to me that you're this, you're uncomfortable.

44:54I'm uncomfortable because this can be analyzed. Yeah, but so what? People are going to say all kinds of stuff. They're going to. I'm not afraid of the criticism. Right. I just don't like presenting it because I'd much rather present him. Right, because you don't care about them analyzing him. Yeah, yeah. Because you're being that way intentionally and everything's, like you said, presentable in some form or fashion. Well, I mean, Stephanie will tell you, I'm not shy in a room. No. I'm not shy in a meeting or I'm not shy in a, I mean, there was one conversation. Leslie's trying to be very, very quiet.

45:36There was one conversation in 2001 when the writing team worked out of 120 Hamilton, whereas Stephanie looks at me, this was one of those times where you had to work till like four in the morning and I just sat on, I was like, I got nothing to do. I'll just hang out on the couch and sit while you work, you know? I'm just sitting there and we're just talking, you know, philosophizing, pontificating. And out of, I don't know, I just said something so freaking stupid the week before about something. I don't remember what it was. And it was just so stupid of me. And you just looked at me and you just said, you know, a little humility goes a really long way.

46:20Right? And I said, okay, where have I not been humble? Where have I been arrogant? And you go, oh, it's not just arrogance, you're abrasive. And I went, wow, why am I abrasive? And you say, you know, you're not always right.

46:40And I'm sitting there going, I'm not? And she's just like, you present everything as if that's it. You're the final answer. you have it all figured out and it's the end all be all and your opinion works and i was like yeah i have confidence in my opinion and she just goes sometimes you need to present it differently it's not that i have a lack of confidence being me i i i i know that's true yes he did until you shot no no yes i am now actually remembering many times that i had tried to call fall down in the room, but it wasn't necessarily with me. I was trying to protect him, but he just would not let me.

47:28So, I'm not uncomfortable being me. I'm just uncomfortable being me and presenting it. It's personal. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's like, you know how... You just want to keep your private self private. Yeah. And again, I don't think anybody pays to see this. I don't... It's the Hall of Fame speech. Well, we're hoping they're going to want No, I was just going to say. Watch it. Change our minds, please. Well, this is more like of an expose of who, you know, deep inside the twisted, messed up mind of Pauline. But it's like the Hall of Fame speech. At the beginning of the Hall of Fame speech, I intentionally went out there, and the first thing I admitted was, I have no idea what to say here, because I don't know how to be me in public.

48:12Because I've never done it. And because I wanted to, you know, it's like the Hall of Fame speech was, with the exception of the line about ECW, the Hall of Fame speech was completely winged. I had the music written, but not the lyrics. I knew the first part was about my children. I knew it was. I knew I'd go on to ECW. you, I knew I'd go on to about the cancel culture and that, because I wanted to talk, because it's, everybody's Hall of Fame speech is always about the past. I went to Atlanta and I went to Memphis and then Vern Guggen.

48:54And I don't live that way. I look forward. So I wanted a lot of my Hall of Fame speech to be to the next generation. Here it is. I get to work with Braun Breaker. I get to work with Rhea Ripley. I get to work with Bianca Belair. I get to work with these fascinating young talents that are coming up. I wanted to be about them as much as it is about me or about my past. And then I knew I'd go home on all the catchphrases because that's an easy way to get out and you leave on a high note. And then it's to everybody else that had to follow. follow that motherfucker you know that's it that's good yeah um i just you know when i started talking about paul that wasn't planned but it was like okay why am i here why did i turned down the hall of fame four times and and i just thought i will never do it while i'm active and my kids always wanted me accepted because they were afraid they were going to have to accept it for me after I died.

49:56That's what they said? Oh, of course. Don't make us give that speech. Yeah, those blunt bastards. I wonder where they get that. From their mother.

50:10And the reason why was, number one, it was WrestleMania 40. Pretty momentous. Number two, I was the first person asked by Paul Levesque with him being in complete control of the Hall of Fame. and to me that was a lifetime honor. Number three, he asked me to headline it, which was also his first Hall of Fame that he's running and I'm asked to headline, what an honor. And number four, we were coming out of a very chaotic time corporately. And no matter what, no matter who had what opinion, this man was doing a magnificent job in steering the ship and someone had to say it publicly someone had to say you know out of chaos one only one person can drive the car out of chaos and it's not just the manner in which he it's not just how he then it's not just how he leads is the manner in which he does it um and then there's Steph wearing an ECW hat and it's Steph's first appearance publicly since she stepped down from the board.

51:22And I told my daughter that day, I want you to watch Steph. Because there was no trepidation in Steph. Zero. She walked out to that seat, first time being seen in public in months, after a tumultuous time in her life, personally and corporately. She walked out to that seat like, bitches, the queen is here. Bow down. Just chin up, chest out, here I come. You know? Take it on the chin if you've got a punch to throw. Worthy of your worship if you choose to acknowledge. And I just said to my daughter, no matter what, that's you. That's you. no matter what anybody says about anybody around you you live and die on your own merits or demerits yours, no one else's and the fact that she's wearing an ECW hat in his first appearance just grabbed me which is where I just came up with the lines Stephanie married the wrong Paul but the whole thing was winged because number one I'm better at improv I didn't try to memorize anything.

52:39I didn't want to memorize anything. I wanted the whole thing from the heart. But I knew the first part would be completely out of character. And when I went out there and I hugged Roman, and Roman said to me, he says, I can't wait to hear this. And he's walking away, and I'm thinking to myself, man, are you going to be disappointed?

53:05And this was the end of the title reign. And this was a very emotional weekend for both of us. Because, wow. What a run.

53:18And as game-changing as ECW was, the bloodline was. The bloodline was a turning point. And we both knew we are within 48 hours of this chapter closing. It's rough. Very emotional for the two of us. And the fact that he was willing to induct me when he was the undisputed, absolute, uncontroverted number one star in this industry was breathtaking to me. And what a beautiful speech he gave. And he leaves and I'm thinking to myself, thank Roman. Thank Joe. Thank him. Thank him. That'll be first. No, wait. The beginning is supposed to be about my children. Thank them. Well, thank them and Joe. Okay.

54:10Oh, shit. What do I say? And I'm out there blank. Oh, no, really? Oh, blank. Blank. Is that the first time that's ever happened to you? No. No. It's happened to me twice. I've had it happen. It's the worst. Yeah, it's funny because then the auto kicks in. Yeah. But for that moment. Oh, God. Panic. Oh, and it's forever. It's at least 10 minutes you're standing out there is what it feels like. Yes. Yes. And I'm thinking to myself, how do I start this? And then I heard it coming from this section, from my left. You deserve it. And then it starts to permeate the entire room. You deserve it. And now it starts to expand.

54:59And also, I neglected to say this, it was Philly. Of course. You know, it's Philly. And I felt that this was ECW's induction into the Hall of Fame. And I thought, this is where we retire the leather jacket and the hat and the headsets and the pants. But like, for example, in the wintertime, I won't wear a long leather trench coat, even if I go out, just because that's that guy. So I'll wear something else. I'll wear a warm coat, but I won't ever put on a long leather trench coat again in my life. Won't. Will you ever use one of those giant phones again?

55:49Yes. Hey, what's old is new again. They may come back into phones. I know. I know. Retro. So I heard it and I heard the chant and I went, okay, that's it. Here we go. You know, you fucking right. I deserve it. And got the pop and I was like, now we're off to the races. I gave the first line and a pretty interesting one for all the fame acceptance. But I didn't know how to start as me. Right. No, it is hard to be yourself out there. Like in WWE. This is why I hate being a babyface too. I think of myself as a babyface in real life. Maybe I'm not. But to be out there as a babyface is so tough. It's so much easier to be a heel.

56:38It's so much more fun. Well. I find. As a babyface, you have to be completely conscious that at every minute you're wearing out your welcome. Yeah, I hate it. I hate it. It's terrible. I mean, you have to sometimes, but man, it's the worst. Right. It's the worst. The worst because everything's an audition. Yeah. Every moment. Like me. How do you get people to like you? Right. Come on. Right. And people are not inclined to like anything. No. Especially not people who are asking for you to like them. Correct. But as a heel, you can do no wrong. Anything. Anything. Anything. You can, you know, and I try to teach this to everybody.

57:20As a heel, you can completely screw up. Totally. And just sit there and say, you've interrupted my train of thought. I'm very angry at all of you. Yeah, it's not your fault. Right, and it's the easiest thing in the world. And then all you have to do is sit there and say, so now, because of that, I'm going to start all over again. And they go, oh, no, oh, no, no, he's not going to do that. Ladies and gentlemen, and they go, oh, my God. starting over again. And it's the easiest thing in the world. You can't screw up as a heel. It's so fun. You get to play with them and their chants. And it's like the things they say sometimes.

58:03I mean, it's really funny. What was your favorite chant? Oh, I've... Well, my most horrifying was She's Got Side Meat. I just love when she says it. I hate that one. It's so mean. Steph's Got Side Meat. It's so mean. And I was wearing something that showed that part of my body. So it's creative. It's mean. No. But Chicago was she's a crack whore. Most everywhere else it was slut. And that was a very long time ago. I'm sure our viewers have no idea currently that that time period ever happened. That you were a crack whore. Yeah, it did. Yeah, it's so aggressive. Yeah, they chanted slut. I mean, right off the bat.

58:45As soon as I turned heel and it was so great. Yeah. I was like, what are they chanting? because that was when you know it was at Armageddon which was December of 99 and it's probably the only date and time I could ever actually quote of anything that happened but um and it was the night that I did the heel turn and got with Paul in storyline not in reality and it like the next day I think where were we we were in Florida and they came with the slut chant and it was the greatest thing I had ever heard. Because nobody else got chanted at that way. Like, slut? I was like, what are they saying? Slut.

59:24That's a good one. I was like, that's fantastic. Arenas of people, thousands of people chanting slut at me. It's the best. That's the greatest. No, I mean, who could say that? Not many people. Only in his business. That's true. Big news, WWE and sports fans. the world's number one sports fan festival, Fanatics Fest, is making its return to New York City. Fanatics is bringing you closer to the leagues, teams, superstars, and athletes you love across four action-packed days in July. Meet your favorite WWE superstars, get your hands on exclusive merch, catch live podcasts, and interact with the biggest names in sports.

1:00:12Tickets go on sale November 13th then fans of the show can get a 10 % discount by using Steph 10 at checkout. That's S-T-E-P-H, the number one, the number zero, at checkout. Want to wear the gear of WWE's most iconic legends? Head over to WWE Shop and check out all the official Legends merch collection. From classic tees to iconic gear featuring your favorite Hall of Famers, it's all there. Don't wait. Grab your piece of WWE history now at WWE Shop and Fanatics. Want to feel like a champion? Step up your game with an official WWE replica title belt, perfect for collectors and fans alike. Available now at WWE Shop and Fanatics.

1:01:03So many people, it's interesting because I heard you, of course, some of the interview on the Logan Paul podcast. And Logan's like just starting to figure it out, right? So it's so interesting to hear his perspective and the questions he's asking you and, you know, having a feel for where he is myself and where I think he can be, which is sky's the limit potential. Right. Like and so I pay close attention to some of the things that he does and says. And so listening to you with him was just it was really fun, you know. And I'm curious, when you have spoken to Logan or some of the other talent that you have carried along the way, what are some of the consistent messages that you present to them?

1:01:54What are some of the things that you say to draw their best out of them? Because I think that's a unique ability that you have.

1:02:09if I'm going to work closely with a talent,

1:02:15the premise is always going to be you have to let me understand

1:02:28all your trigger points how can I make you cry how can I make you angry well that part of easy when it comes to people talking to me how can I make you happy what's going to tear you up in happiness what's did your dog die when you were five and it still bothers you did you have a relative that passed away early where are you most sensitive if you really want this to work if you want to become a star if you want to be the best if you want to make millions and millions of dollars. You're going to have to be more emotionally and spiritually intimate with me than you are with your own spouse. You've got to let me in.

1:03:24You've got to let me know. Because I've got to be able to whisper something in your ear and say something to you that when that camera goes on and it goes, that people look and go, that's for real. That's not an acting tear. She's crying. She's crying out of happiness. How did you feel when Aurora was born? Oh, my God. Boom, the emotions come right out of you. It's happening right now. No, but where I'm actually going is I always tell people that they need to be vulnerable, which is exactly what you're saying, but you're saying be vulnerable with me. Yeah. And my advice is always to be vulnerable in front of them, the audience.

1:04:15But in essence, that's what they're doing. They're just doing it because you're feeding it to them with real life moments like method acting that they can react to. There are things. And I think this way is really interesting because I never describe it deeper than that. I just say learn to be vulnerable. People are probably like, what the fuck does that mean?

1:04:38But there are things that There are things that you and I know about each other As friends That If I'm walking out to the ring And you want a certain emotion out of me That I even Searching my own heart and soul There are things I don't dare think about at work. I just don't. It's too personal. And that you could come and whisper to me,

1:05:15go, okay, and I'm out there in that mindset. Or there are things that I could say to Steph. Little conversations that we've had over the years that I could get any emotion I want out of Steph. Sometimes he does this for fun. It's on this next portion of... Just because I can.

1:05:40But I can get any emotion out of Steph. And there were things that are so personal. Actually, that only you've been there for. Yeah. That I can say to Steph that on her most introspective day at work, she wouldn't dare think about it in Gorilla. There's no way. It's too personal. It's too repressed. And I can sit there and say, hey, remember this moment? And oh, my God. And some of it's very happy, too. It's just some things are so happy, you don't even bring it to work. And some things are so deeply rooted in your own things that you work out in life that, woof, that's where we go. So when I work with, see, Brock, really, we never explored the depth of the character.

1:06:41Brock's character is intentionally very one-dimensional, but the tribal chief wasn't. Uh-uh. What made the tribal chief so different is that at very strategic times, we presented layers. and every time you thought you understood the tribal chief Roman Reigns, we showed you something different. And that's what made that character so breathtaking to watch develop in front of your very eyes. It's like a child star that grows up in front of you. And as much of a grown man as Joe Anawaii, Roman Reigns obviously was, he grew up as the tribal chief in front of the audience every time you thought you know we presented him he became the tribal chief he is the tribal chief otc that's right that's right yeah so um and there were things that he entrusted me with that i don't think any other person on the face of the planet knows about him.

1:07:49And we, whether it was a promo in front of an audience or whether it was one of the things backstage on the couch and he's searching for that layer that he wants to present. And I'll just pull him aside and say this, and he'll just look and go, got it and that's it i know i it's it's tapped into it and you have to trust me to keep that between us and never repeat it under any circumstances even on my deathbed that that goes to the grave with me but to get that greatness out of somebody oh they really have to trust you and for a person that unadmittedly will have a reputation of being untrustworthy, there are things that I will take to my grave about a lot of different people that my own children don't know.

1:08:47Because that's the intimacy that I will have with people that I work with. And if you give me that vulnerability, I'll never betray it. And we will have a personal satisfaction and professional satisfaction of achieving greatness together that two other people can't match. Yeah. Because it's so much deeper. Oh, yeah, it has to be. And it goes both ways, by the way. Sure. It has to, yeah. Yeah, it's reciprocal. Yeah, it's a relationship. someone tells me something about themselves, I give it back. I will say, well, let me tell you something about me. That's my equivalent to your story. So that you know I don't just understand or sympathize with that emotion, I empathize with it.

1:09:49I truly understand where you're coming from because... Here's a running joke that Steph and I have always had. for years, we'd see each other, usually in gorilla. Hello, the obligatory hug, then the obligatory laugh between the two of us, right? That's just it, because we're laughing at ourselves and each other at the same time. Because we're happy to see each other. Very. Yes. Very. And here comes the question. One says to the other, so, can you psychotherapy lately? Right? and it's like no but i need it and i'm like yep i need it too have you gotten it nope don't have time yeah you know what don't have time for it either oh well i guess we got to figure it out all by ourselves you know and that became the running joke for years between us yeah therapy now need it yep get it nope okay that's why we're here yes yeah and that's it it just it if i'm working with someone, it becomes a mutual therapy session so that you know the depths of my stupidity or my vulnerability or my trauma.

1:11:08And you also know the heights of my happiness. And I know the same thing about you. So if we're going to go and try to achieve greatness together, there are no rules it's uninhibited i will say anything i can to you to get that out of you so that when you look back on this 20 years later you go that was the most authentic portrayal i've ever given of this emotion because that was a shoot within within the skin of the character which is always when it's the best. When people say, well, they use the word fake, which I don't mind that word. Everybody hates that word, but I know it's fake, but that was real.

1:11:55That was real. When it's the best. That's what they said about me and Paul. They're really together. I know they've really got to be together. And we weren't, actually. They made it happen. Well, maybe, maybe. but it's such a gift to have that relationship with you actually well the feeling is quite mutual i assure you he's a very unique human being he really is the wise man no he is that's the annoying part but he wasn't so when are you going back to that conversation it's because i was trying to learn from you but i wanted to learn what also didn't work So when you would present everything as a solve and here's what we do, and I'm like, but, and I'd poke holes in it and you'd be like, well, yeah, you can just ignore that part, you know?

1:12:46And then I'd be like, but, and so I, cause I really wanted to understand, you know, I was trying so hard to learn the psychology of the business from every aspect. And I had learned so much of it from my dad on the writing side. And I learned so much of it from Paul, you know, ringside. I never understood at all the psychology of a match before he explained it to me, you know, and would take me through things and answer my questions, you know, because I had so many questions. And that was what I was trying to do with you is understand your psychology and how you would create all these ideas and how you knew which talents actually had it and who didn't.

1:13:25I mean, you weren't always right, but for the most part, you were. You saw things in people that nobody else saw. And when you kept saying it, like, yes, no, this is the answer. And this and only this. And I'm like, no, but riff with me. Nope, this is it. It would frustrate me because I didn't feel like I was learning because you weren't giving me that at that time. But that's okay. Yeah, it's just, it's, it. But that's why I got frustrated because you were bullshitting me and I called you out on it. I was like, would you just stop doing that?

1:14:08It's a mindset that there are no problems, there are only solutions. And even if there are problems and no solutions, you better find a solution or it's going to solve itself and not to your liking. That's right. You won't have any control over it. So I don't know. You control the headline. Right. Yeah. Right, exactly. Yeah. So I don't know if you've ever grown up around anybody who had any kind of control issues in life.

1:14:46But you either take control of the problem and turn it into a solution or someone else will. and then you've got to live with their decisions, oh God, right? Yep. Or number two, the problem in and of itself will work itself out to become the solution because that becomes the trajectory of where it's going to go, which is the downward spiral. So you either grab it and say, here's the solution. Again, being an extreme personality, no pun intended, well, actually all pun intended. If there's a fire. I don't know what you're talking about. We made the same exact face. If there's a fire in the house, okay, and someone says, let's go this way.

1:15:37And the other person goes, let's go that way. Oh, no, let's go that way. You're all going to burn. Right. So someone has to go, we're going this way. you're going with me let's go here we go right or wrong we're going this way and if I burn I burn first you'll all witness this run the other way but someone better make a decision out of chaos only one person can drive the car so I always assumed grab the wheel okay here's where we're going okay no no no no this is the way this is the way okay okay that's helpful That's such helpful perspective. I'm trying to take control of the situation. Right, yeah, but I didn't want you to take control.

1:16:23Yeah, I know you did. I feel like you needed to tell me this. I was in control, and I was reminding you. Oh, all the time. All the time. But you are so tricky, oh my God. Can you imagine I'm like this 23-year-old kid or whatever, and I've got to manage you? Like you, Michael Hayes, like all of these personalities, like Dusty at one point. I mean, come on. this may end up on the editing floor. Okay? Always a good lead in. Oh, boy. But we were pitted against each other. Who, you and me? Oh, of course. Oh, of course we were. Of course we were. We were absolutely pitted against each other. Why didn't I see it?

1:17:02Yeah, well, you know, I, first of all, I just had spent seven and a half years of my life being God of my own universe. Yes. A universe you created. Oh. Yes. Okay. Just, yeah, whatever I decided was it. Yeah. You know, that was it. I was the end all be all. I was in, from 1993 to 2001, the Vincent Kennedy McMahon of my own company. I was the only word that truly mattered. Every decision ran through me. and if I delegated it, that decision had to be approved by me, changed by me, contoured by me, but ultimately it ran through me. Even pay. Everything. Everything. Which was another thing that Stephanie was always fascinated.

1:17:58She looked over, and again, you know, this is the New York territory. This was the place to go to make the biggest money in the industry. and I had the reputation of having the hardest working crew in the business, even more than the multimillionaires that were working here. And Steph always asked me, how did you get people to work so hard for you and be so loyal to you when they weren't getting paid? Always fascinated Steph. Not only that they weren't getting paid, and this I mean with total respect the way I'm going to say it, But you were hustling, right? You were trying to pay them. So you were saying you're going to get paid, and then they didn't get paid, but you're going to get paid again next week, and then you were shuffling.

1:18:47I had to survive the day. Yeah, you did. I had to wake up the next morning alive. So that was more the thing to me, like, okay, the talent aren't getting paid. If they know they're, you know, like, to be lied to about it, which I would think would make them upset. But then still at that time, so sorry. I think my saving grace always was I didn't loot the company. Yeah. I wasn't one of these promoters that took the money, stuff it in my socks, go, oh, there's no money tonight. I went bankrupt too. Right, yeah. I spent whatever I had trying to save the company too. I never paid myself for seven and a half years in ECW.

1:19:25So it's not like I got rich. Oh, yeah. I didn't mean to imply that if I did. No, no, no. No, but you were in it with them. Yeah. And that was my saving grace. Or someone would have killed me. Yeah. Especially one of them. Oh, yeah. It's not like my locker room didn't have felons in it. I mean, if you want prison system wrestling, come to the ECW locker room. I mean, you know. You know, New Jack and Sandman, you know. These weren't people that were just open to, oh, yeah, I'll see you next week. No problem. You know. And I completely took us off topic with that. Where were we? Oh, no. We were talking about paying the talent and conversations you and I had about loyalty and trust and how they.

1:20:15She wondered how. Yeah, how they still, you know, would work for you given all of these circumstances. Oh, but before that. Oh, you and I are pitted against each other. God of my own universe. Okay. Yes. You know, seven and a half years of me just making every single solitary decision. We're back to the part that may be edited out. Oh. And now I come aboard and I'm working for other people. Yeah. And there's an approval process where number one, I was the approval process. And now I'm one of many pitching. and when you are the final decision maker, when you are the chairwoman of the board, when you are the head of the writing team, when you're the mother or father of the household, your decision has to be presented with clarity and, as Stephanie would say, not as a question but as a declarative statement.

1:21:21I got those lectures too. I don't even remember this at all I didn't get that one because you never did that because I don't make the same mistake very kind of me that is why sorry for the audio so this was a whole new life for me to learn because every decision I made in ECW was it and either I had to present it with You can't make a decision like, well, okay, I guess this is the way to go. Hey, how do we get out of this fire? Oh, I guess we jump out that window. We're jumping out that window. Let's go. Here we go. That's it. That's it. And I wanted to be with you so badly, and then it would get shut down.

1:22:10Right. And then I'm like, but why doesn't it work? I don't get it. So when I came aboard, I was told, my daughter runs the writing team. Take her out of her game. I want you to be the disruptor in the room. I want you to be the contrarian opinion. Do not make that easier. There's no nepotism here. She earns that right to manage you or she doesn't get to do it. At the same time, so I'm walking in to be the disruptor. I'm walking in to be the bull in the china shop. I'm walking in to just say, here's the fucking answers. And she's told, God damn it, Stephanie, you got to manage that Heyman guy. He's out of control.

1:22:54He thinks this is his company, and it's not. Reign him in. If you want to be respected, if Stephanie Marie McMahon, if you want people to respect you as an executive and as a professional and as a manager of people, you can't let Heyman take you out of your game. You have to show that you can manage someone like him. This is true. This is all true. I feel like we're completely pitted against each other. I know, but it's like fascinating in hindsight, right? Like, and we figured it out anyway. That was my question. How did it ask? One day, in one of those couch sessions at 120 Hamilton, I just sat there and went.

1:23:37So you're fucking with me at three o 'clock in the morning. I guess I was a little upset. He was there to help. Oh, blasted him. What the fuck is wrong with you? Who told you to make my life so fucking difficult? Your father. Oh, he told me to rein you in. Yeah. Oh, really? You know? Yeah. It was an interesting lesson for both of us. It was. It was. And by the way, not one I bitch about. No, it was great. Great learning. Educational for both of us. Yeah. Because you did have to manage difficult people like me. Yes. And I did have to learn how to work within the system of being managed. So it's like the wrestling business goes corporate.

1:24:26And I have to somehow manage that. That was kind of like what my job was. And that was not easy. But so when do you guys become friends? We were always friends. Oh, I always had the highest respect for her. Always. Even through this whole moment of learning? Yeah, even though he was, well, that's why we ultimately got to the place we did, because I liked him. Yeah. For, you know, for all the hard time he gave me and everything. And then, you know, and I'm getting all this stuff about why I shouldn't like him. And, you know, we just, I don't know. We always. Kind of made you like him more. Maybe it did.

1:25:00Yeah. She was a 23-year-old in an impossible situation, living up to a family legacy that was impossible for a 23-year-old not only to grasp and understand but to master, had a room of difficult people to manage, including and especially me, who thought his job was to make it more difficult for her to manage. Admired her performances beyond any words that I could possibly offer here to tell you from the get-go and i i i respected the way that she ran the room from the first day that i walked into the room and stephanie was in charge my job as far as i understood it was not only to solve problems and and and and lend expertise to the process but to rattle the cage rattle the cage yeah yeah so but i always i always had an indescribable amount of i guess we earned each other's respect you know because as annoying as he could be he made he had great ideas you know and i he was fascinating and i love to listen to him though very disruptive and also people in his business that and i know i'm i'm using a lot of profanity on on a show that oh gosh yeah no it's no problem we do yeah all creative people are fucked up yeah you have to be you have to be to be creative it's part of the creative process

1:26:32it's like the old thing of um you you can't plan improvisation right you can't be creative if you're not somewhat twisted there's not there's no you don't go very deep yeah yeah you have to that's the point yeah you have to tap into neurosis and psycho and psychosis and the wise of things. You know, the dark, even happy things are in the dark recesses of your mind, you know? And you have to tap into those things to be creative. At least that's how I see it. Yeah. Well, I just think everybody's totally fucked up most of the time. You guys hear that? No, I mean, in a great way. Like, it's just, that's who we all, like, we all struggle with the same things.

1:27:16You know, we're, we are all human. We all have the same feelings and emotions. We all have the same basic seven needs, you know, like we are all really the same. But yes, then there's levels, as you say. Levels. Yes. To what degree? Yes. How many levels? How many levels? To Dante's Inferno. Yes. And how much of it can you actually realize about yourself? Right. Exactly. Paul, as you know, we are partners with Fanatics. We are. And Fanatics, of course, is the home of WWE Shop. It is. So today, our friends at Fanatics want you to blind rank five of the most legendary WWE shirts of all time based on the impact they had.

1:28:06The catch is we will go from one shirt at a time and you won't know what's coming next. This is like a new thing. So we're going to put a shirt on the screen? It's the ranking of five things. And you're going to rank it one through five, but you can only rank them once. Number one. All right. And the next shirt?

1:28:29Because it originated in WCW, number five. Wow.

1:28:41I will identify hustle loyalty and respect with John Cena, but the front of the shirt is not one that if you showed me without the back, I could even identify with Cena. So I'll put it at number four, with all due respect to the impact John Cena had on both the company and our merch sales, even to this day. Okay. Like when I saw John Cena on here, I didn't see the actual t-shirt and I thought for sure he was going to be, if not number one, very close. And then seeing that shirt, yeah, I don't remember that guard dog shirt. The wear of the dog? Yeah. I don't remember that one Alright

1:29:33And we've got one more Unless there's an ECF &W shirt coming up I'll give that Is number two still open? Yep I'd give that number two Alright so this last one falls into number three Right? That's number three Sure That's clearly identifiable with CM Punk You know who it is both front and back, the impact that he had as a rebel who became a top star and absolutely a Paul Heyman guy. Oh, yeah. And that's that. So where do we take the conversation now? Well, I would love for you to tell some stories about your parents. Okay. Because they have taught you such amazing lessons. And the way you tell the stories of how you learn these lessons is always so intriguing to me.

1:30:31And I think the audience would love to hear. I was born in 1965, which means, you know, in the early 70s, I was in elementary school. And there was a big thing about ADD. This is when, you know, ADD really came into focus. and they started putting kids on Ritalin and all these ADD drugs. And, of course, I couldn't just be ADD. I had to be ADHD because I do nothing half-ass. Nope. You're all in. Four letters. Oh, yeah. Full throttle. So where I went to school, they interviewed all the kids and they gave you all these tests and everything. And, of course, I got, you know, he's ADHD. and they call the parents in and the child sits in the room with the school and the people and the guidance counselor and the principal and they, well, you know, Mr.

1:31:26and Mrs. Heyman, your son's been diagnosed with ADHD, attention deficit hyperactive disorder, and, you know, we like to put him in a special ed class. And my father's looking at them and he's saying, oh, how are his grades? Oh, he's doing fine. He can read and write, right? Yeah. He does well in this class? Yeah. Okay. So what's the problem? Well, he's ADHD. Attention deficit disorder. My father looks at them and my father says, you look at it as a disorder. I look at it like he, he, he can, he can multitask. He can do many things at the same time. Looks at me, he goes, get the fuck back to class.

1:32:10And I was like, okay, goodbye. And I just got up and walked into the room and later I asked my mother about it and she just said oh he tore them an ass like just why are you blasting these kids for having this thing and part of ADHD is that you can hyper focus so Stephanie as I'm sure you know has conversations with people like this so I've only known to look people directly in the eye like this. It's the first thing about Stephanie that my daughter knows. I see. Is it too much? Am I like too intense? Do I do this all the time? Like I know I look people deep in their eyes. But it's like this. Do the thing.

1:32:52And you know the thing like a monkey with a symbol? Stephanie's talking to my daughter and she's like this. And they're talking about, I don't know, the grass growing. Nothing of like substance that's world changing. And like this. And you could be next to her going this. and that focus does not change, right? Me, I talk to people, and I'm doing this at all times. I've been doing this the whole podcast. I look around. Part of it, because I'm paranoid, I always think someone's coming to come get me. Oh, shit, now I'm scared. You'll see him coming, don't worry. But I don't do this. That's just, I pay attention by distracting myself.

1:33:40I can I listen by looking around the room that I if I sit and like most people will sit and work they want absolutely my mother if my mother was working on something any noise would bother her any noise if she's if she's downstairs and I'm upstairs and I just go like this she'll say I hear that oh my god everything everything distracted her me I I I concentrate by blasting music. That's how I concentrate. I concentrate by distraction. I learned how to play into my own flaws. But it's not a flaw is what I mean, right? Right. It's given you so many advantages in so many other ways. That's what I was going to say.

1:34:28Yes, yes, yes. Why you're so brilliant and creative. But hyper-focus at the same time, the same person that looks around the room while talking in a very in-depth conversation, I considered a computer for 20 hours at a time. And never get up to pee, never get up to eat, which is surprising the way I look. Never get up from that chair. So it can be 8 o 'clock in the morning, my kids come down, they see me, they go, what are you doing? Working on this idea I have, writing out this script. and at four o 'clock in the morning, I'm sitting in the same chair. I haven't moved away from that screen. I'm still working on it.

1:35:15I haven't moved. Hyperfocus. At the same time, it's attention deficit disorder. So - Just because of a word. Yeah, yeah. You know, so that's how my father looked at it. My father looked at it like, no there's an offshoot to this that you're not paying attention to and if he can't concentrate on one thing at a time and he's doing well he's obviously concentrating on multiple things at once he can multitask so whatever he does in life he's gonna have to he's gonna have to be juggling sharks and chainsaws at all time because that's what he'll end up doing because he'll figure out his way right so that that was the brilliance of of my father and that he just looked at things from from that perspective again it's not a problem it's a solution so what i did with my life was something that i could always multitask in that i was just you know i'm i'm i'm so much the product of my parents because these are the things that were instilled in me.

1:36:29What's one of your clearest memories of your mom?

1:36:38Her laughter the day of my bar mitzvah. Really? Yeah. Please tell. Couldn't stop laughing. All day? All day. Every picture from my bar mitzvah is of my mother with the biggest smile on her face. Just so proud. No, happy because the next generation made it. Wow. That's beautiful. Because it wasn't supposed to be. See, my mother grew up in, people call it Ludge. It's Widge, Poland. and Widj became a ghetto. It was fenced in. And the men left. The men left Widj when the Nazis were coming into Poland because in World War I, Germany occupied Poland and they were civil occupiers. women and children were not killed.

1:37:42Men were killed because they fought. But the women and children were treated with civility. This did not happen in World War II. So the men left figuring, we're going to get out of here. We're not going to die. You're going to be fine. They're going to occupy. And then we're going to come back. so there were three brothers Jacob, Zelig and Lieb, my mother's father was Lieb and they left and the women were left behind and now they had to be hidden because quickly everybody realized this was not going to be a civil occupation my mother witnessed 13 of her cousins starved to death my mother witnessed both of her grandmothers starved to death my mother had four aunts two starved to death two were rounded up on the streets by the time the witch ghetto was liquidated it was my mother my mother's mother my mother's sister who was seven years old my mother was it was August 1944, depending on the date, my mother was either 16 or 17.

1:39:00She doesn't know the actual date. She just knew it was August 44. They were put on a train to Auschwitz. When they got off the train from Auschwitz, and this is the defining moment of my mother's life, you know how like when you wear glasses, you see everything through the lens of the glass? I believe my mother saw everything in life, every moment of my mother's life through the lens of what they called the separation. And the separation was, are you fit for slave labor or not? If you're fit for slave labor, you go this way. If you're not fit for slave labor, you go that way. And if the child goes this way, the mother goes with the child because once you kill the child, the mother's not fit for slave labor.

1:39:49The mother just shuts down because the child's been killed. My mother got off the train. My mother was fit for slave labor. She went this way. My mother's mother and my mother's seven-year-old sister went that way. Within an hour, they were in the gas chambers. That was it. My mother was in the march from Auschwitz to Bergen-Belsen in January 1945. However thousand many people started that march, many died along the way. She survived. liberated April 15, 1945 by the British Army from Bergen-Belsen had no family everybody was dead as far as she knew and she was diagnosed with either typhus or typhoid or both she doesn't really know was given a 10 % chance of living she was that much on death's door survived and became a nurse at the Displaced Persons Hospital on Berlin because there was nowhere else for her to go.

1:40:52Now, her uncle Zelig would save his money every year and go back to Poland looking for any members of the family that survived. 51 weeks a year, he saves up those paychecks. Week 52, takes a trip to Widge, tries to find any members of the family that survived. And on the off chance in 1949 that a member of the family was on the march from Auschwitz to Bergen-Belsen, he went to the displaced persons hospital in Berlin and said, anybody here from Poland named Scharf? And they said, we have a nurse. Wow. And her name is Sula Mita. And he said, my God, that's my niece. And he took her back to Canada, and she immigrated from Canada to the United States.

1:41:56And my mother, again, our understanding of each other. Don't know if you've heard this. Stephanie has a parent, rather intense individual in life. My mother was a fierce personality, a ferocious human being who wanted every moment out of life that she could possibly get, which is why I have such an understanding of Charlotte Flair. Because there's not a moment of Charlotte Flair's life that she doesn't live for her brother, that deceased. on my mother's tombstone is not only my mother's name, but her mother's name and my mother's sister's name. And that was at my mother's insistence. Because my mother didn't just live her life for herself.

1:42:56My mother lived her life for her younger sister.

1:43:02So this is the intensity with which I was raised. Number one, it made me fear nothing, which, as Stephanie will tell you, great trait to have in some ways. Not the best trait to have in others, because some things you should fear, and I feared nothing. I don't know. You've wound up all right. But, whew, a difficult person at times to deal with because nothing scared me. Did I scare being fired? I didn't care about being fired. Why? Nothing compared to what my mother went through. Did I care about being beat up? I didn't care about being beat up. Why? Nothing compared to what my mother went through.

1:43:48Hey, these guys are going to kill you. Yeah, okay. Take your best shot. Why? Nothing compared to what my mother went through. So nothing in life really scared me because nothing was going to compare to what my mother went through. And when you are raised by someone that you can look in their eyes and you see what not just they witnessed but what they experienced. Woof. So my mother lived her life through the lens of the separation. so even the happiest moments of my mother's life were tempered by the fact this is what i lived through how happy can i possibly ever be how can i ever be 100 happy when my seven-year-old sister was so was murdered in that fashion um not to compare people's tragedies But if you speak to a rape victim, if you speak to someone whose family member was murdered, if you speak to someone who's gone through a tremendous trauma in their life, they carry that with them at all times.

1:44:58And it's hard for them to be 100 % happy at any given moment for the rest of their lives because they carry that moment with them. And that's what my mother carried. But on my bar mitzvah day, pure joy pure joy in every picture that I look at from my bar mitzvah is this woman consumed with happiness because we made it we survived you didn't kill us I'm here and the next generation has now passed into manhood so we're here it didn't get us we won and and that was always her thing the greatest lesson my mother ever taught me and if you think about it people today would say that's child abuse and it's not it defined me in terms of my outlook on life but people would say that's way too heavy of a conversation to have with a 7 year old my parents would go out every Friday and Saturday night that was their thing Friday and Saturday night was their night out and no matter which one of my cousins was babysitting me or whatever my mother would come to me and she'd sit down it's the same lecture every Friday and Saturday I got this throughout my childhood would sit down and say listen if your father and I get hit by a drunk driver something happens to us if we don't come home you move forward you go on you mourn it and you move on i don't want you 25 years old in the gutter with a needle in your arm saying oh man i never had a chance my parents died when i was seven i want you on top of the world when you're 25 saying, hey, my parents died when I was seven and I was ready.

1:47:07Like with that intensity. And I'm like, okay, hope you come home tonight, mom. I love you. You know? It's this incredibly intense conversation to have with a seven-year-old. Then again, how many kids who are seven years old have lost their parents, and they end up in the gutter because the excuse is, or the valid reason is, I lost my parents when I was seven. How was I going to make it in life? And she didn't want that. For her son, for her only child, imagine those expectations.

1:47:55Again, something else we could relate about each other to. she wanted to make sure if they didn't come home that I was going to be just fine because she prepped me for just what this world could be at its worst at its most atrocious at the depths of hell on earth that she prepped me for that and that I was going to move forward and be just fine that's the lesson that's that's the survive the day and wake up tomorrow and if i wake up tomorrow the world is on notice i'm here and you are all in trouble

1:48:45yeah therapy session no kidding yeah i'll give you an asterisk i'll give you a confession oh keep it going since we're talking about what could or couldn't be abusive of children Oh, great. Keep it light. I know two other children that got raised with a similar speech. Azalea and Jacob. That's what I was going to ask, actually. I thought it was you. I got nervous. No, no, no, no. Told them the story about my... They are keenly aware of the story of my mother. And as soon as they were old enough to understand the concept of no matter what, this is how we go that got instilled in them too always what the caveat is this is what my mother taught me and this is what I'm going to teach you and it's going to serve you in life because you move forward it's awesome Paul and it is a true testament to who you are as a dad I mean you're a wonderful father you really are You want to talk about being great at something?

1:49:58I think you're an amazing father, and your kids are the result of that. They are great kids. I mean, they are. And you know it. Thank you. Yeah. And as a parent, it's okay to brag. Yeah, I'm humbled by them. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. It's amazing to watch. It really is because, I mean, you're going to have kids. You just, you have to love them to death, you know? Love them as hard as you possibly can. And that doesn't mean you don't teach them the hard lessons. That means you do. Yeah. It means you love them enough to teach them hard things so that they can spread their wings and fly. Yeah. Where did your parents meet?

1:50:44At a party in the Bronx in 1960. And they got married six months later. Wow. Wow. They both met their intellectual peer. That's saying something, and you are the product of that.

1:51:03I don't think my mother really was impressed with it. My mother was, again, just a ferocious mind. Just an insatiable appetite to learn because she was deprived of an education as a child. My mother went to Sarah Lawrence College in her 40s with a husband who was a self-proprietor. My father was never part of a law firm. My father was a personal injury attorney in the Bronx. So my father was a one-man business. And so she's running the household on that. and with a lunatic child at home. You know, hey, you've met me as an adult. I know, I just actually thought of that. Like six-year-old Paul. Imagine this.

1:52:00Wow. Wow. And with no self-awareness and hyperactive. Yeah. I wouldn't wish me as a child on anybody. Oh, my God. I would kill for that footage. And my mother went to City College of New York because she just wanted the education. And my mother had three years. She was a year away from getting the diploma. And there was an op-ed in the New York Times written by a woman called Ada Bozeman. And Ada Bozeman was an adjunct professor at Sarah Lawrence College. and she was some sort of delegate or some sort of representative at the United Nations. A very well-respected person. I'm sure she's now about to be Googled incessantly by the online crowd and they're going to find, oh my God, she said what in 1952?

1:53:01But Ada Bozeman was a highly respected intellect and an adjunct professor at Sarah Lawrence College. And my mother read this op-ed and was furious about it. Could not disagree with it more. Okay? We don't talk politics, but Trump and Mondami in a room together trying to settle issues. Not gonna be on the same page. Okay? That's how far apart my mother was from this opinion, from this truly trusted and respected intellect. And my mother wrote a letter to Edda Bozeman that was so scathing. I don't know if I've ever cut a promo on somebody that deep. Really? Oh, wow. Oof. And this letter resonated with Edda Bozeman.

1:53:53And Sarah Lawrence College is in Bronxville. And I lived in Edgemont, which is technically Scarsdale, which is 10 minutes away. And Edda Bozeman wrote back a letter saying, here's my phone number. Please call me. I'd love to have lunch with you. I would like to speak with you. And my mother went to lunch with Ada Bozeman, and Ada Bozeman, after lunch, said to her, if you'd like to come to Sarah Lawrence College, we don't take credit from other colleges, but if you'd like to come here, these are my classes, and you are welcome in any of my classes. Wow. And my mother, who didn't want the degree to go find work, my mother wanted the education.

1:54:34My mother wanted the knowledge. My mother wanted to expand her mind. My mother gave up all of her credits from City College of New York and started as a freshman at Sarah Lawrence College. In her 40s, with a husband building a career and this schmuck at home. And four years later, finished with a 4.0 grade point average on top of her class. Wow. Number one, whipped the crap out of the 18 to 22 that were in Sarah Lawrence. So that was the ferocity of her intellect. So she, I don't know why, I don't know how I got off on that tangent. I usually don't know how I got off on these tangents. Personally, as I said, professionally, my words are more structured, though I always go over my allotted time.

1:55:28I asked how they met. Oh, so I don't think my mother was impressed with any man that she ever met. I just think she looked at him and went, oh, that's a dumb shit. He doesn't understand. He doesn't get it. You know, is he intelligent? Yes. Is he street smart? No. Is he street smart? Yes. Is he intelligent? No. My father was a voracious reader. My father graduated high school at 16 years old. They had advanced him to grades. They had wanted to advance him to more. My father was one of these kids that would have graduated high school at 12, 13, 14. And his parents were like, stop. Let him grow up with children his own age.

1:56:17So my father graduated high school at 16. He had two years of school before he was drafted into the U.S. Navy in World War II. So my father was A, very well-read, very well-educated. He went to, not Lehman High School, went to Evander High School in the Bronx. But still, very well-educated. My father was very intelligent. My father was super articulate and well-spoken, very charismatic, and street smart. He was a street kid from the Bronx. So he checked every box. So everything that she looked at, that everyone else fell short of her expectations and respect, that was it. She wanted a peer in terms of mind.

1:57:08Yeah. That was my father. That's what you want in your partner. I don't know how my father felt. That's what I want too. About any of the women that he dated. Because I'd never really asked him about his personal life before he met my mother. But I would presume they fell short of his level of expectation of a partner. But I can tell you that when my mother passed away. And my mother, we knew her last night. We were told if she makes it to morning, it'll be her last morning. And my father and I sat in a room with her on her final night. And I remember we stayed up all night just sitting with her.

1:58:01And I fell asleep about 5 o 'clock in the morning just in the chair, you know. And an hour later at 6 in the morning, I could hear weeping. And I'm waking myself up because I figure she just passed. And she hadn't yet. And I looked over and my father was crying. Weeping. Just crying his eyes out. And I put my arm around him. And he said, that beautiful mind. That beautiful mind. And your children won't have more access to it. that beautiful mind is about to be gone. It wasn't the love of my life. It wasn't my life partner. It wasn't her. Oh, this beautiful woman. And she was a beauty. But it wasn't about that.

1:58:57It was that beautiful mind. So they met at a party. And I just imagine it was like, and that was it. Sparks flew. Boom, six months later, and they're married. How long after did you come along? Five years. Oh, that's good. So they had some time together. They had some time together. Peace and quiet. I don't... Sorry. Well, actually, the funniest thing is, and this is, again, I'm a product of my parents, all they did was argue. Go figure. All they did was argue. You know, we'd watch the evening news with Walter Cronkite and he'd have one opinion on it. He'd have a completely different opinion on it.

1:59:46And boom. But they loved arguing with each other because they were such intellects. Yeah. You know, it wasn't like someone was making this person's completely right with all these valid points. And this person has the dumb shit approach. They were both so smart. They just saw it different ways. And they respected each other's opinion, but they battled over it. You know? You had to earn the victory.

2:00:20This segment is brought to you by Factor. What conversations did you have growing up around the table? Was there a meal or family tradition that taught you something you still carry with you today? All we did at our dinner table was argue. You never ate. Oh, no, we ate. Hello? So the tradition was just arguing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that worked. We're Jews. And this is what Jews do. So, ugh, I don't know. What a schmuck. But we like to argue. that's what my people do. Awesome. Thank you, Factor. And there goes our sponsorship. If you want to argue with your parents, you take Factor. It helps you concentrate and you don't delve off on other subjects.

2:01:21Especially if you're attention deficit disorder like I was as a child. And they're back. Thank you. all that was missing was my father saying one more volley oh oh i forgot about the volley wait tell us please tell us oh no only paul can tell the volley we were going back to when you know knowing when to stop oh he would have pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed and hard that you can tell there's like a physical reaction that is about to happen and then he'd relent you'd think for the moment and I'd be like okay he's okay and then he'd go one more volley and and it was like every time it didn't matter what he was gonna say from that moment forward it was not going to happen and it was now going to get shut down and twisted and shoved and yeah Then he was ready for the next volley, truthfully.

2:02:26He was. Never one to sell.

2:02:36I didn't know how to top. Yeah. I just knew how to fight. One more volley. And as if presenting it that way made it better. Like, I'm going to say the exact same thing I've been saying over and over and over again. but I'm going to say it with this preface, which makes you listen differently, which it did not. There was one time Steph was tasked with roping me in on these volleys. And she said, I don't understand. Do you actually think you're going to convince someone by presenting the same argument again, just with a different bit of flavor? And of course, being the irritant that I... You better stop laughing.

2:03:20I'm just, this is hilarious to me. Being the irritant that I was, my answer was, I'm not trying to convince anybody. I'm trying to persuade them to which of them, get the fuck out of my office. Just go. Just leave. Come back tomorrow. I didn't yell, though. You're making it like I don't raise my voice. Oh, man, you raise your voice at me. I told them both times. You don't anymore. Okay. Because I don't feel like I'm a voice out of my voice. Well, I don't raise your voice anymore, either. But even as a parent, like, I'm not a voice raiser. Oh, man. I'm not. She's not mad. She's just disappointed.

2:03:57Oh, she was very disappointed in me. Especially as I'm walking out the door. And just to be a smart ass. And by the way, this completely quelled the whole leap. As I'm literally walking out her door, I close the door. You know how Lenny and Squiggy are always like, hello. Like, today's the worst day in history. Hello. You know? As I'm leaving the door, walking out the door, I literally stick my head back in and go, one more volley. And she popped like that. I sure did. And I left. And I left. Because I knew, okay, at least I can come back to work tomorrow. Because when she threw me out, I figure I'm done.

2:04:36Oh, man. I'm walking. Oh, come on. Like, that didn't happen on more than one occasion. Multiple. I just figured the next day I'm walking in and, you know, hi, I'm from Human Resources. And we'd like to talk with you for a moment. here's an agreement. Sounds like you know how that process goes. Multiple times. But I knew when I made her laugh. Leave on a high note. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Some tricks. So tricky. Managing you. Oh, my God. If there is such a thing. I wonder what Azalea would say. Has she heard some of those stories? Of course. What does she say? What a dumb shit I was. I just tell it, these are things not to do.

2:05:24Learn from my mistakes. The greatest lesson in life when you have children is when they start to mimic you. Oh, yeah. The mirror. You learn what the mirror is. And then you sit there and you go, oh, my God, that's how other, oh, man, I better stop them from doing that. Listen, here's how I screwed up. in this particular instance it's not a good idea to yeah maybe you should maybe i'm not the best example approach it from a different reason you know and i like i'll tell my kids now listen i'm 60 it took me to 50 to learn this one learning now at 21 and 23 save yourselves a lot of heartache and headache here you know don't don't be 35 or 40 to learn this one.

2:06:14Most other people will learn it later if they learn it at all. You guys learn it now. Be ahead of the pack. Took me a long time to learn this. So that's why I always say full circle now. I don't, I didn't learn from my successes. I learned from my failures. It's not about who you become once you reach your final destination. It's who you become along the way. Diana Nyad said that. Do you know who she is? No. She's the woman who swam from Cuba to Florida in her 60s. And I read her book. I heard her speak, but I read her book and she started trying in her 20s. It took her, I mean, she took a long break also, but it took her that long.

2:06:57And then finally in her 60s, like what made her go back to actually trying to do that again? I mean, it's remarkable what she did and what she accomplished, but that That was her biggest takeaway. That was her biggest lesson. It wasn't who she became when she reached the floor, the floor, the shore of Florida. It was about who she became during this whole 40 year journey, you know, of trying. You want a great way to wrap? I had one in mind, but yes. Oh, no, I'll go with yours. No, so mine might lead to, let's see, no, no, I think mine will set up his wrap truthfully. because I was going to ask you, we said greatest lessons from your parents.

2:07:42What is the greatest lesson that you've learned from your kids? When my daughter was born, my father said to me, you're going to learn to love something more than yourself.

2:08:02There's never been a micro moment in my life that that's not true. Unconditional love. Unconditional love. That's what it is. Yeah. I tell my kids that all the time. It doesn't matter what you ever do. I might get mad, but I will always love you. I will always love you no matter what. Yeah. That's. I think. I think through that. I think through that, the greatest lesson that I have learned from my children is no matter what self-criticism I have of myself, I did okay.

2:08:56I did something well. I did something good. I don't take what I, it's funny, as seriously and as obsessively as I take what I do for a living, at the very same time I can tell you I don't take it seriously. I don't. Because what I do for a living is just my pursuit of never really wanting a real job in life. but what I do with my children has true substance and meaning and and and that that's the catharsis that that's that's the lesson I don't know how to articulate this but you told me a story and I won't say what it was but it was one night Jacob came downstairs and he said something very powerful to you about you.

2:10:02And I think there must be something in how much our kids love us back, if we're lucky, you know? But I don't think we think about that enough. And when your child says something, sometimes like you think about how much you loved your parents, your kids love you like that. Yeah. You know? And it's like the greatest thing in the world and a true mirror and should hopefully inspire you to be the best, right? As you've said this whole podcast, the best person you can be, the best dad you can be. When I did my Hall of Fame speech, I saw Steph that weekend. and I had my fun in the Hall of Fame speech.

2:10:56I very much publicly endorsed Paul. I took the shot at Steph that she married the wrong Paul. And I didn't know of any, I wanted to make sure this was all okay with her. Because usually Hall of Fame speeches are very just self-centered and I'm putting them out in public in a different forum. And I just said, what would you think? And Steph's answer was, did you see your daughter's eyes? Did you see your kids looking at you? And if not, look back at your speech. Don't even pay attention to yourself. Watch your kids look at you. It was amazing. It was so beautiful. They were so proud of you. They were beaming, both of them, looking at you.

2:11:42Their eyes never favored. They were just happy they didn't have to give the speech. Oh, that's right. That's right. We learned that. That's right. Yes, yes. You want the out? Yes. Okay. The woman that swam. Yes, Diana Nyad. From Cuba to Miami. I don't know if it's Miami, but Florida. Right. I forget. She wound up slightly like askew from her original. Started in her 20s. Yeah. Didn't get it done until her 60s. Yes. Do you know the mindset that drove that? One more volley.

2:12:17That's right. That's right. Drive forward. Never give up. And don't take no for an answer. Well, that's enough. Thank you so much, Paul. Want to continue? No! More volley. And I am not a yeller. I can provoke the most reasonable, rational person. Not anymore. But back then? Oh, yeah. I was so young. Wow. I mean, in a corporate setting, I worked for you for almost eight years. No yelling. No yelling. Yeah, but this was two o 'clock. Eight years. This was two o 'clock, three o 'clock in the morning. Her behind her desk trying to get work done for nine o 'clock the next day. Me just needling her.

2:13:02But now knowing that you were fitted. Yeah, this makes more sense. It does. It actually makes so much sense. My compliments to a worthy adversary. That's the greatest honor that I could ever have. Thank you, Paul. Thank you.