Six Feet Under - Paul Heyman talks Brock Lesnar, The Streak & Roman Reigns

28:20But I mastered this. This is my role. And it's inspired by them, but it's not the same. So when I came back to being a manager, which was in the Dangerous Alliance, I asked to be the CEO of the Dangerous Alliance so that I wasn't labeled a manager. Because I always figured, wow, that's the past. Let's not call it a manager because I'm just reminding people of a role that no longer exists. Mm-hmm. Well, and you've always, I remember you mentioned it a minute ago, like we were riding up down the roads in 1990. But even back then, and you were my manager, Mean Mark. But you did, I always remember, because obviously I was, you know, We were both young then, but I think you were obviously further along.

29:22You'd been in the business a few years longer than I had, so you had obviously a lot more experience. But I remember the little things that you used to take care of. So it's kind of you almost take the approach as it's a shoot. You make things a lot easier on your guys. Like, whoever you're with, there's, yes, there's the TV aspect. But you go, you kind of go far beyond. I feel like that. Like, I've heard that you basically remove all real-world distractions from whoever you're working with, which is so amazing. Thank you. It's about, and thank you for remembering that.

30:12No one's going to pay to hear me say, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Paul Heyman. Or back then, my name is Paul E. Dangerously. Does it help? Yes. Does it enhance? Yes. Does it take it across the finish line? I sure hope so. But no one's going to pay to hear that or to witness it, especially back then. I mean, now, you know, oh, last time you ever get to see him, maybe we'll fill up a bingo hall again. But besides that, it ain't going to happen. We survive as an act on your ability to perform. So if my designation in our act is to just talk, okay, great, and I'm just a performer, and we don't have to gel and we don't have to like each other and we don't have to really give a shit.

31:09But if we look at each other and we say, we're pretty good together. There's some money here. There's a camaraderie that works behind the scenes and there's a flow that works on the camera. And I can tell what you're going to do before you do it because I'm in sync with your rhythm and your understanding of the business. And that comes from being in the car and listening. Should I throw three punches? Should I throw five? Should I throw five? Should I throw three? And once we understand that together, my job is to make your performance the best that it can be. And if you walk into an arena and you go, man, I'm really hungry.

31:52Is there any food that I can get? How can I get food? Now you're not thinking about your match. Hey, you know, why are there no towels in my locker room? If I just had towels, I could take a shower, I could think about the match. My job is to make sure that you only think about the performance tonight. Wow. That's it. Let's go for greatness. Let's do something that other people are not competitive enough to do. Let's seek that, excuse the term, spiritually orgasmic moment that we walk away going, And, you know, that was great. And no one else can do what we just did out there tonight. They can do their own thing.

32:37They can do something different. Maybe they do things that are better. But they can't duplicate what we did. We offered something special. And we can be proud of our work tonight and overall of our body of work. If I don't take that position seriously, that I have the ability to take your chicken and rice will be here at 3.30 as you like it. Your towels are there so you can take a shower. There is the right shampoo. Hey, I made sure you have a toothbrush and toothpaste in the locker room. Don't worry about the rent-a-car. I got the rent-a-car. If you need this much sleep, don't worry about the rent-a-car.

33:14I'll get in before you. I'll pick you up when you land. And you like that kind of hotel? I'll book it for us. All you got to think about is being great. Right. And if it's with the right person, Brock Lesnar, Roman Reigns, CM Punk, you, Steve Austin. If it's with the right, Rick Rude. If it's with the right person. Yeah. There's no telling the greatness that can be achieved. And people can come at you in your life from multiple directions and say anything that they want about you. They can nitpick you to death. You know what they can't take away? The body of work that you put together that screams out greatness.

34:15They can't take that away from you. That's yours. You own that. You earned that. You worked your ass off the sacrifices you made to achieve that. If I can take something off your plate the day of a show, and back then we were doing five, six, seven shows a week. Sure, yeah. But if I can take something off your plate so you can achieve that, look at the ride I'm on with you. Is that where you learned that from? What's that? Doing all that stuff for me all the time. Wow. Taking everything on my face. That's what I've got to work with. And I can't say much. Oh, no. What I would have... I love being in the middle here.

35:01It's always... It's such a great... That's great advice. Dr. Heyman family therapist. So, hello, darlings. Welcome to the show. Today, I have Mark and Michelle, both with an M. We should look into this. Oh, boy. We just come off the rails. Here we go. Are you ready to hold WWE history in the palm of your hand? Topps is bringing you closer to the action than ever before with WWE Topps Now. Highlighting the biggest matches and milestones from WWE shows and PLEs throughout the year. Topps Now is enhancing the fan experience by connecting collectors to superstars and spectacles that ignite their passion.

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36:35Do you, I mean, your reputation and your legacy within the business, do you seek out, obviously you've got to refill the stable now. Do you seek out or do you does Paul come to you and say, hey, what do you think? How do you fill the void that a Brock Lesnar leaves now? I don't know if that's a void that can never be filled. I think now it's the art of reinvention again. You know, it's when in 2020, when COVID hit and the decision was made corporately, we are going to produce live television or live to tape television twice a week. Raw and SmackDown. Here we go. And we're still going to do what was then called pay-per-views, now premium live events.

37:30and Brock's contract wrapped up just as the whole world shut down and Vince made the business decision, we've got to take a break for a while. I'm not going to just have Brock Lesnar wrestle in this cavernous atmosphere that ended up having a digital component, but we knew we were down for at least a year, and who knows? We didn't know when the world was going to come out of this. and the opportunity arose at that time that Roman had taken so much time off and the decision was made for us to finally work together and when I asked Vince his vision for it, he just said, he's the big dog and you're his advocate.

38:21And the first thing I said was, he can't be the big dog anymore. We've run with the big dog since 2012. He needs to evolve into something completely different, and I can't be his advocate. I was Brock Lesnar's advocate. I must be something different to this character. And the examples that I continuously gave were, and this is what sold Vince on it, was the dead man, the American badass. It has to be that shocking of a metamorphosis. And it has to make sense. Sure. The dead man grew into the American badass because times had changed around him. The 90s had evolved and the audience wanted more out of the dead man to where the dead man returned as the American badass.

39:16And even though that's a seismic shift in character, you never alienated the dead man. You incorporated him into an evolved character. It's the same thing. It's a progression. It's a metamorphosis. It's a here's what I have on my resume. And here's where I've been. And now here's where I'd like to take you next. and I need to wear a different suit. I need to wear different colors. I need to have a different scheme of things because that worked with Brock, but what worked with Brock did not work with Roman. Right, yeah. And what worked with Roman did not work with CM Punk, and what worked with CM Punk did not work with you or with Steve or with Rob Van Dam or anybody else that I've worked with.

40:07Everyone's an individual, and we need to create... and act like a marriage, like a professional marriage, that I'm here to, if I understand my role right, I'm the supporting player. And I take great pride in that. A great supporting player makes the main character and makes the main character in such a degree that the main character could not pull that off on their own, male or female. Robert Duvall in the Godfather movies the greatest supporting actor I've ever seen and made those movies and this is what we're talking about look at the cast Brando, De Niro, Pacino and yet Robert Duvall was the glue and made everyone else around him look better and that's the role so I don't know the next step because I have to look at the landscape and see, ooh, let's invest our time here.

41:14Let's buy into this stock and grow it and watch it rise to the top. Are you taking applications? Because I would have given anything to work under your tutelage. I mean, my goodness. Well, thank you. He'll tell you it's not all it's cracked up to be. No one is good and it's bad. Yeah. Mostly bad. No, no, no. Not as much bad as Bruce Prichard. Right. We established that. Yeah, that's a whole other topic, but no. This is kind of off topic, but I love Jalen Brunson. Love him to death. Think he's an incredible player. But I don't know that he's earned the King of New York title. And I told Mark, honestly, I think you should be in the running for that.

42:03She hit me with this on the way over here. I'm going to get a little hot because, I mean, I don't know. I think you've earned. I think it was a compliment. That was a compliment. Yeah. She thinks you're the king of New York. I do. I think you're, yeah, I think you're up there. Well, I am the king of New York. Exactly. I knew it. I knew it. See? And when the guard for the New York Knicks, in their initial babyface run in this decade, steals my moniker. Thank you. At least he's stealing from the best. This is true. I mean, I wasn't going to say. I was just straight up hot about it, honestly. She's trying to stir up some stuff is what she's trying to do.

42:46I'm not trying to stir up anything. I think it's true. Uh-huh. No, no, no. She's definitely team Heyman on that. I am. I think she's trying to stir up some, you know, a little controversy here. I would never do that. He's on a pretty good run right now. He is. Well, they have great writers.

43:07they do uh they do that's what i've heard they get to win the title but not in the garden so that next year when they make it to the finals and then those garden tickets can be even higher can see them win they still haven't won it at madison square garden they mopped a floor with San Antonio. I got that one right. They mopped the floor. Oh, wait. Oh, okay. There you go, San Antonio. My compliments. It was a hell of a season. They mopped the floor with San Antonio and then all of a sudden they get to the garden and the heels inch out of victory. The guy at the free throw line who had a 100 % average or near 100 % average in free throws, all of a sudden he misses at the most critical point not only in the series, but in his entire career.

44:00I mean, my God, their creative team is on. My compliments, NBA. Your writing team is stellar. What a booking committee they got. And this is why he's keen. Wrestling cynic right here. That screams true promoter. True promoter, man.

44:26When you took over ECW, what was it? Eastern, what was it? It was Eastern Championship Wrestling. Eastern Championship Wrestling. So, talking about a metamorphosis, you go into, you know, extreme championship wrestling. Did you always, did you just, did you, do you think that's where the business, obviously that's where you thought the business needed to go, but did you have that vision for a while, or did you just kind of adapt with the times as you started rebranding that? Kind of both. I thought in 91, 92, that the business was evolving to the point where it needed to be more visceral. It needed to be more 18 to 34 male demographic.

45:16It had gotten to kiddie friendly and had lost a core audience. and in chasing the action figures and the Halloween costumes and huge market, but it alienated that 18 to 34 male demographic. It just, it wasn't cool. It wasn't on the cutting edge. It had become very conservative of an industry. And this is not a conservative art form. It's a very liberal art form. I'm not talking politically. I'm talking just in terms of it's progressive. It is young, but not that young. And it always has to move forward. And it always really needs to be mindful of the pop culture that's out there. The culture had become even more so than in 1985 when WWE did the MTV relationship with Cyndi Lauper and Hulk Hogan and Mr.

46:21T and Roddy Piper. It had become very MTV oriented. And not just the network MTV, but the entire concept of that style television. It had become trash TV. Everything was going extreme, and no one really picked that up as a buzzword yet. And that wasn't my original intent of the name of the company when I first took over the creative end of it. I just knew I had to get out of the word Eastern. It was too limited. It was narrow casting, and I wanted to broadcast. Yes. but hip hop was right on the precipice of breaking through and back then it was only on Yo MTV Raps unless Run DMC would do something with Aerosmith because Aerosmith we endorse these hip hop guys come on fellas we'll make you stars MC Light was just the hottest female rapper in the world at the time Roughneck could not get played on MTV except on Yo MTV Rap.

47:32Onyx was just on fire. Wu-Tang Clan was coming out of the gates. NWA, Haruta Dejamaja. You just look at all the different hip-hop artists that were just breaking through in that community but could not get any kind of wide-stream, mainstream cultural pickup. But they were going to. and the entire landscape of what the youth were watching was changing. Those dance shows on MTV were damn near pornographic. All they did was crotch shots and upskirts. This is at 4 o 'clock in the afternoon and you turn on MTV and it's like, whoa, is this even appropriate to watch? so I could tell the culture was shifting.

48:28And also, I was limited in the quality of workmanship I was going to be able to lure into ECW because that type of classic, okay, here's an arm, but we're going to work the arm, going to work the arm, going to work the arm, going to work the arm, okay, going to get a submission on the arm. The old workmanship, those guys were all signed, or they were signed to Japan. So I had to make something with smoke and mirrors. And I don't want to say chicken salad out of chicken shit, because what the guys did was very impressive in the opportunity that they were given. But I had to build characters that were not like the ones that you were going to see in WWE or WCW, and I could never match the production budget, so I had to give something that felt illegal.

49:23And in doing so, and in using the music, and in giving these down-to-street-level but still larger-than-life characters, we found an audience that would say, that's cool. I understand that. Hey, that speaks to me. Hey, that's my generation. And therefore, the disruption of the industry itself was also born out of just the fact that we needed to find something that would let us survive based on the fact that the others couldn't do it or were unwilling to do it or it was not politically correct to do it. or sponsors and advertisers would never be on board with it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing.

50:21I mean, it's a major revolution within our industry. It was so out of the box. It was, you know, kind of going through it, like when you're in a company or in a different company and you're like, what the hell are these guys doing? Right. Right? This is not what we do. Right. And, you know, actually it ended up being sheer brilliance because it did. It gave the alienated a place to feel, yeah, this is my wrestling. Yes. This is where I'm at. And I say this with deep respect for what we did. It's a gang or a cult mentality. This is my family. These people accept me. I'm accepted here. How I envision pro wrestling to be is accepted here.

51:16It's celebrated here. Oh, these are my people. The Sandman is my guy. Raven is my guy. Rob Van Dam is my guy. Taz is my guy. The Public Enemy, the Dudley Boys, these are my guys. I identify with them. They identify with me. You know, the first time I put Public Enemy on the air, I had Ted Petty, Rock O' Rock, say, we are the first generation of American children more afraid of living than dying, which I stole from Newsweek magazine. Because there was an essay in Newsweek, and that was the line. And I was like, that's brilliant. We have to use that. And I wanted a hoodie tag team. and Teddy was 40, 41 years old and Johnny was a Cajun from Lake Charles, Louisiana.

52:14You know, we're building him out of South Central LA. Right. You know, and, you know, here's Johnny Grunge talking like this. And yet people bought into it because number one, they didn't know who these two guys were because Teddy had always worked under a mask. And Johnny had never been seen before because he didn't really wrestle on that many independents in the North. So when we busted them out that way and we gave them lines like that, that people identifying with, you know, again, this was also the emergence of grunge. So this was the disenfranchised, you know, 17, 18, 19 and beyond. So, you know, that age group especially was looking for an identity.

52:59And while in music, They found it through Nirvana and Pearl Jam and Soundgarden and Radiohead and Stone Temple Pilots. In wrestling, they found it through us. Right. Because we were the home for those who were not welcome elsewhere. Was there ever any talk of you going to ECW to work with anybody? Not until maybe the end. I don't know. Towards the end. Towards the end. Towards the end, this would have been a guest appearance. But Vince wasn't letting you out of his sight. No, he kept pretty tight reins. And he certainly didn't want me in your ear.

53:38When we did the Monday Night Raw thing in 1997 to promote our first pay-per-view, that was the first thing I noticed that there was always someone just watching everybody I was talking to. I get that now. I think you said that yesterday. I got it all day yesterday while I was at the arena. Why is he talking to talent? Uh-huh. literally that's so funny you know there are options but it's funny there was a ribbing on the square a lot yesterday but everybody would get a little little closer to see what i was saying to different talent i was like we're all under the same umbrella here it's a this is a family it's a family deal here my father used to say just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the whole world's not against you.

54:26Well, that's weird. Yeah. I like that. That's good. And in this industry, sometimes it's an accurate state of mind. Oh, boy, is it? Are you kidding me? You know, on this show, we talk a lot about the grind, the history, and what it took to build a legacy in this business. Guys like Austin, Rock, Sina, and obviously the women who completely revolutionized the division. Oh, thanks, babe. Nice of you to notice, but you're right. The history of WWE is unmatched. And for the fans who lived through those eras with us, that nostalgia is incredibly powerful. It really is. And if you want to represent that history, WWE Shop and Fanatics have the ultimate collection of official WWE Legends merchandise.

55:12They really do. They have everything from classic graphic tees and hoodies to retro jackets and title belts. And honestly, the women's fits and styles they have now, they're amazing. I went on Fanatics the other day and the selection's massive. You can find gear for all the greats, including, of course, The Undertaker. Grab your Legends gear at WWE Shop and Fanatics today. So we discussed, you know, we talked about your role as far as on-screen talent. You've kind of got an unspoken role, I guess. Unspecified. unspecified, consulary freelance, yeah you mentioned Robert Duvall and the Godfather the other minute it really, it sparked a like you are, you've been referred to as Paul's consulary now?

56:03Well that's what he that's how he described it he put it, you know they came to me on the Hall of Fame and you know I'm sure they asked you the same thing what you want on the ring and I whatever you want to put on the ring, you know, surprise me. I don't know. I'm kind of uncomfortable. Well, put this on, you know. Put goat. Yeah, yeah. Good looking, you know, and you deserve a raise, you know. You know, so I just said whatever Paul wants, you know, and I never talked about it publicly until he did it his own Hall of Fame induction. But he put the word consulary on it, which really moved me when I saw it.

56:54It caught me off guard. You know the old expression, I serve at the pleasure of the chairman, I serve at the pleasure of the president. I serve at the pleasure of the chief content officer. So if he sees somebody and he says they got a breakthrough on their promos. They're in their own way. They're in their own head. Hey, they're an A, but they need to be an A+++. Hey, they're a C, they need to be an A. Whatever it is, you know, find it in them. Help pull it out of them. That becomes my assignment. Now, sometimes that's a one-day process. Sometimes that becomes a life mission. It all depends on the talent.

57:36It all depends on their openness to reach inside and pull it out of themselves, how much they like working with me, if they do at all. And sometimes it's just a quick thing. Help this person through this promo today. And sometimes it's make that your project. Okay. And I love working with really, really talented people that want to go that next step, that want to take it even further. it's like the old thing about Michael Jordan showing up at 5 o 'clock for a 7 o 'clock practice why? Because there's other people that want to become Michael Jordan and he ain't going to let them so if someone's willing to put in that extra time when Roman and I first got put together we would talk on the phone and at times just out of the blue in the middle of a conversation talking about how does your lawn look today?

58:44Completely off topic. I'd say, what did you have for breakfast today? Oh, this many eggs and a bowl of oatmeal. Great. What did the tribal chief have? And I'd want him to talk to me as the tribal chief. And not just for a promo, like for five minutes. Talk to me for a while. Spend a half hour on the phone with me as the tribal chief. Do small talk with me as the tribal chief. Did the tribal chief take his kids to school today? Did the tribal chief pick his kids up from school today? What was that conversation like? So that just he learns how to walk in the skin of that character so much that he's just as comfortable being the tribal chief Roman Reigns as he is being Joe Anawaii.

59:32And once you have that comfort level of understanding who that person is, then you can switch it on and hopefully afterwards switch it off, but that you could switch it on in your pursuit of greatness because you truly understand who that character is. If you walk and go, I wouldn't say that. I don't know. Okay, why wouldn't you say it? What would you say? What would your character say? How would your character approach it? What's the new layer of your character that we can reveal because this is a new situation for the character to be in? And those are the things that I look for when I work with a talent.

1:00:22So if you give me a Royce Keys, for example, who, despite the fact that he's been in the business for 15, 20 years, has no idea how truly talented he truly is. Right, yeah. Or you give me a Javon Evans. Or you give me Jay Cargill. Or even Charlotte Flair, who's been in the business since birth. Right. And you look at it from a different perspective, and you force that person to look at it from a different perspective. it opens up a whole new light for them in their pursuit of something that goes back to walking away with that spiritually orgasmic feeling of, I did something great, I did something special.

1:01:11So, long answer to your short question, forgive me for that, please, and thank you, is I'm here to help in whatever assists the cause of the promotion to move forward. Yeah. As you were talking, and I was thinking of Roman, like he, you know, I've always, people have always come to me, man, you live the character, you live the gimmick. He truly, anytime that I see him, I had a moment with him at Fanatics Fest. we ran into each other real brief, real quick, but he conducts himself at all times as the tribal chief now. You know, and I don't think people understand it. And that's what makes it so good because it comes off now.

1:02:02It's so amazingly genuine that he thinks he is in which he is, I guess. But it's funny when you started talking about the conversation, talk to me. How did the tribal chief take his kids today? And it's obviously paid off. Because, you know, I saw him do an interview. I don't remember who it was that was interviewing him. But, you know, basically he was like, yeah, I am this guy. And I was just like, wow, that's living your character. Yeah. Which not many people do. That's living your character in 2026. Yes. It's the same thing that I did. it's exactly the same it's a different presentation obviously yeah but he's doing it in a in a just a an incredible way and it's just funny you know it dawned on me as i was watching this interview and then listening to you just then it's just like it all makes perfect sense and um that's so you know well done i mean it really is to to be able to to prompt people to do things like that.

1:03:10It's close to home for him, though. Yeah. It's super close. He is the head of his table. He is the tribal chief of that family. He legitimately is. And there always was. For a while, it was Offa and Sika together. Right. And Offa would handle the business, and Sika was the muscle. And then Rodney stepped up. Rodney, yep. And for a while, it was Junior. Junior was the undisputed head of that family for a long time. And it was time for Joe. And you know this. The head of that family takes care of a lot of people in that family. There's a lot of people dependent on the head of that family. And that's Joe.

1:03:57And so the tribal chief was something that we came up with because he was. And he is. and to me that was very easy to fall into as his at first special counsel and then he named me the wise man but it was very easy to fall into that because I looked at him like he was my tribal chief because he he conducted himself like a tribal chief he aspired not only to live the character but he admired the character and the traits of that character and the benefits that that character brought himself, his wife, his children, and the rest of his family to the point where he's, Joe Anawaii looked at Roman Reigns, the tribal chief, and said, I need to be more like that, like him.

1:04:54That guy is worthy of admiration and worthy of the respect that I want bestowed upon me. And he conducts himself like that. He is the tribal chief. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. You see things and you see every day, but sometimes I get disconnected and then I have a moment. And it was strange. It was a podcast or an interview he was doing at Fanatics, and it really hit me like, wow. You know, he's doing what you did in a time where it's incredibly hard. I don't know if it's incredibly hard. It takes an incredible amount of dedication. I would say it's hard, too, but it's hard because probably something y 'all both agree on is that so much is given away.

1:05:45So many phones and so many, you know. That's exactly my point where I was going in an era where people are only these things on TV. Right. You know, that was kind of my, I mean, obviously it was a fanatics interview, but he was still where most other people that were there are their alter egos or are not their alter egos. They're there. They're being themselves. Yeah. He was being the tribal chief Roman reigns. And it jumped out to me like, dude, this is, it gave me a different, it gave me a whole nother respect for him because it dawned, like I said, it dawned on me like, dude, that's old school being applied in 2026 in the new school.

1:06:35Again, it's funny because sometimes I do get a little disconnected from, I have to at this point, but it was fun for me. It felt good. It felt good when it hit me. I was like, okay, I see what you're doing there. Well, he's rooted in the fundamentals of the industry. And, of course, he was raised that way. So he has deep respect for it. New school doesn't mean shit on the old school. New school means take – here's just an example, okay? And I use this with young talent all the time. When I was a kid, I'm talking about when I was 15 years old in the garden locker room, the old-timers, the Bob Backlunds, the Arnold Scolins, the Gorilla Monsoons, the Angelo Moscas, the Don Morocco's and Greg Valentine's and Bob Hortons and Albano and Blassie and the Grand Wizard.

1:07:34They all had an interesting philosophy when it came to baby faces and heels. The heel settles into the heat. so the baby face can blow the comeback so the heel stops the movement because movement is exciting and people will cheer the movement and if you stop if you demonstrate the hero the baby face the protagonist is moving and it's exciting and it's fun to watch and oh i really look at oh man That's a cool move. That's wonderful. Oh, my God. I'm really into this guy. And then the heel takes it away from you, holds him down, and gets the trapezius lock or whatever, the ice pick. Ice pick. Ice pick.

1:08:22Yeah. Remember Heidenreich with the ice pick? I do. Heidenreich would, we're going off on a real tangent here, Heidenreich would grab an ice pick, and he hated doing the ice pick. He hated it. But for some reason, Arn Anderson would tell him, no, you got to do the ice pick, kid. and so why? Why do I need to do the ice pick? And Arne Anderson said because it cuts off the carotid artery. So he would grab somebody in the ice pick and go, I got him in the ice pick. It cuts off the carotid artery. And he's yelling it to the crowd. Like, it's cutting off the carotid artery. I got him on the ice pick.

1:08:59Like, oh, my God. Do you know he was in my first match ever? Oh, my God. Tag match with Don Marie and him and myself and Big Show. Yeah. Damn it, Paul.

1:09:13So, but that was the thing. You settle into the heat. So the heel, the villain, the antagonist stops the excitement, ruins your good time, gives you the match that you didn't want to see, and holds down my hero. So he settles, settles into the heat so that then when the baby face starts to come up and the crowd's going, yeah, yeah, come up, come up, come up. Give me some movement here. This is boring as shit. Right? And the baby face comes up and the crowd is with him. And he tells the crowd, I hear you. Okay, give me more. Give me more. And they're giving him more. And he comes up for that movement.

1:09:50He blows his comeback. That still applies today. That's old school. Start a match, throw a punch, break your hand. Have to keep the hand tight for the entire match. Here we go. The opponent is working on you. You're coming back with kicks and left jabs and everything to protect the right hand. And there in the finish of the match, you finally have the opponent dead to right. You forget that one moment. You come off the ropes. Bam. Oh, God, my hand. Boom. They grab you in a wrist lock, or because you backed up from your own punch, they take you down and score a 1-2-3. Old school philosophy. Just tell it in a new light.

1:10:36Tell that story something different. Don't use the ice pick to hold somebody down. Use something new. Use something out of UFC. Use something that evolves, that elevates, that upgrades, that is inspired by the past. but now brings it forward. New twist. And so if you come in with just all new ideas and have no knowledge of the old school, you won't make it on top. No. There's no way. You might have a flash on top because you're so different, because you're so out of whack, but the fundamentals of the emotion that is generated by this industry remains the same. the manner in which we tell the story changes.

1:11:26Yes. Yeah, it changes with the times, obviously. But it's, yeah, you're right. Everything's rooted in, you know, it's also in storytelling and how you tell it. Yeah. Well, I think I'm going to ask this because we're kind of, I think, on the same page with this.

1:11:46We give too much up today. Oh, yes. Yes, even here right now. Yeah. No, and I do. And I appreciate it. But as these guys will tell you, my crew, I struggle to do interviews anymore because I don't like to discuss out of pocket. I'm just too old school to do it. And I fall in the same deal. You can't talk without giving some of it up. And it's one thing, I think, to be talking about older things. But I think we have things up nowadays that are just, the curtain has just been not only opened, pulled down. I think it makes our product so much harder to deliver. Does that make sense? Yes. When this airs, I will kick myself for saying the words of babyface and heel.

1:12:40I'll hate it. And it's the same thing. It's the old thing. the train is leaving the station. Now, that train is leaving with or without you. It's going. And either you're on that train or you're not. And if you're not, everybody else on that train is going to the next WrestleMania, the WrestleMania after that, the WrestleMania after that. But you're not because you're not on the train. So true. And I don't want to just be a passenger on these trains. I want to be one of the conductors. I want to be one of the people that's on the staff that makes that train go. So I have to be on the train. And this, all of this unreal podcast, open discussion of the art form in our business is part of the modern communication that we offer our audience in order to hopefully build a better appreciation for.

1:13:37I don't think it's just merely an expose. I don't. That would be too embedded in my own consciousness about it. Too protective of an industry that has loosened the grip. So, you know, oh, this just exposes everything. That's not exactly it. There are people that learn from podcasts. There are people that learn an appreciation for the art form that we do. and in this modern communication, it's going to happen anyway. If you were to storm off because we're exposing the business right now, someone else will be in that chair next week and the train will just move on without us. So we have to be accepting of it whether we like it or not and just have to try to find a way to exploit that platform.

1:14:35Like social media. When the first time social media came out, It's like, well, I don't want to put pictures of my children on there. I don't want to put pictures of my wife or my husband on there. I don't want to talk about my, I want to stay in character. So stay in character. So make your social media stay in character. But it's a platform, and it's out there, and it's there for you to not only appease the audience that you have, but expand from that base. So if you learn how to exploit it, you can get someone new interested in you, your character, your matches, your story, et cetera. And I think on some level it gives people just an insider look at what people, that we are humans, that we are people that go through things and that there are people that, you know, may have had a death in the family and go out and work or may have had.

1:15:23And I think that gives a new level of respect in some ways as well for them to see that, you know, we have to perform. Whether you feel like performing that night or not. So I do like that aspect of it. Yeah, and also it's the platform. You know, it's the platform. Now today it's micro dramas and it's streaming. Can you imagine? It's like anybody watches the movie Boogie Nights. Boogie Nights is so prophetic in the changing of an industry, moving on to something else, and everybody that goes along with it is going to profit, and those who don't become the dinosaurs. Right. You know? And this is a new platform.

1:16:10Can you imagine an actor or an actress today or a director saying, my movies are only shown in movie theaters. Really? So Paramount Plus doesn't exist. Netflix doesn't exist. Peacock doesn't exist. All these places. YouTube. YouTube is the largest platform in the world today. hey, if you shoot a movie on a reasonable budget and you release it on YouTube, you can make a very decent profit and build a reputation. All the hot young directors this year come off of doing YouTube shorts, YouTube verticals, or YouTube movies. All of them. All the hot young directors today. It's a new platform, and therefore it's a new method of storytelling.

1:16:53No matter what we're doing here, this is storytelling. Sure. It's just a different way than we're used to. Right. But then again, I mean, I'm sure you remember the days when, you know, when Lou Thez or one of the older guys from a previous generation would come and see it. Just look at the way Harley used to look at where the product had evolved into. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. And Harley would just look, you know, and smoke. What are you doing out there? You know, well, Harley, you know, it's in the audience. Really nice when I do that. Good for them. You know, I was like, oh, okay. You know, just the way that, you know.

1:17:31So you doing this gives you not only access to a whole new audience today, but gives that audience access to you and your history and your stories and your storylines. So it not only promotes your body of work, it's again it's from dead man to uh to american badass to now it's mark right and mark and michelle and here here's our form of communication here's your distribution here's your platform right well i still don't like it i'm with you but i want i want to be on you want to be on the train i want to be on that train and i want to be one of the conductors yeah because it will leave without me.

1:18:19Yeah, I think I want to be on the train. I just don't think I want to go all the way to the end. You're here for the journey. I'm here for a little bit of the journey. My journey, I mean, as our journey. We're a lot closer to the destination than we are from the origin. Yes, we're a lot closer. Yes, we are much closer. 1965. Wow. Full circle. It is a full circle moment, man. Hey, I know you've got things to do. I just want to thank you for making time for us. This has been fun for me. So much history. And just, I love listening to you talk about the wrestling business. Because again, that passion comes out.

1:19:00And I hope you evolve into that next role and the next guy comes along. You have people in, I won't pin you down on a name, but do you have people in your mind that you think might? Hang on. I was thinking, have this guy in mind for one more match. All right, folks. Hey. This podcast was brought to you. Bro, I didn't have one more match on my last match. I did. I got new parts. I'm doing all right, man. Oh, well? Yeah, no. There you go. You even did that in Vince's voice. God damn, you look good. The money. The money. You got one more. Damn it. Man up. Come on. Think about the boys. Oh, my God.

1:19:56Paul, thank you, man. I really appreciate you making time for us. Yes, thank you. Always a pleasure. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Because no matter what you're doing, I swear you're the most entertaining persona on TV. Doesn't matter what you're doing. Doesn't matter Raw, SmackDown, whatever, PLE, whether you're on the sneaker show, whatever that was called. Well, yeah, I'm sorry. Go ahead. The sneaker show. What did you end up getting, man? Like, I've never seen you in anything but leather dress shoes. Like, you get you some Jordans? What did you get? Wait, look. I saw the clip. He didn't get him some shoes because, well, you may not know this, but we have two things in common because I saw it on the show.

1:20:33What? We don't wear sneakers and we don't wear drawers. He said? Do we need to tell people that you don't wear? I'm just saying. He said, did you not say that? This is hate. See, this is why. At this moment, I respectfully invoke my Fifth Amendment writing and self-incrimination. She brought it up, man. He said, I don't wear sneakers and I don't wear underwear. And I was like, see, I knew I liked this man. Always entertaining. You were the guy left in the business that can sell ice to an Eskimo. Oh, there you go. That's the biggest compliment that I can give you. Thank you very much.

1:21:21Hey, this is Hayes Davenport and Sean Clements. We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook. Each week we talk to someone in show business and try to help them with their careers and see what they have to offer us. Everyone has a good time and no one gets mad at their publicist for letting them do our show. We've had a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman, Adam Scott, Danny McBride, Ben Stiller, and a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman.

1:21:55I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:22:24I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

1:23:10Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.