What Do You Wanna Talk About? - Brian Koppelman

28:00Wrestling brings you back, as people say. If you're in it, it brings you back, and it brings you back again, and it brings you back again. And as I say, various things brought me back. Becky brought me back, and your story brought me back again. You said Chief J, right? Yeah. Joe, right? Joe Scarpa. Yeah. I wish more people knew this, but today, if you and I are wrestling in the ring, and you hit me, and I decide, no, no more, and I start hulking up, right? and I start moving. He hit me again. Nope, not again. And I start, I wish people knew today that was very common amongst territory, 80s baby, the idea that nah, it's not a not sell.

28:49It's a, I'm pretending not to be heard. Right, it hurts actually, but I'm not letting you feel it. But I'm not letting you know that when as much as Hogan absolutely took over it all, but when he created it as the Hulk up, it's now made it so that this thing is a hulk up which is amazing a credit to him for creating but i wish people knew that used to be every top baby face at a certain point whether it was chief jay of course the warden are are are my old man when it's nope we're done whatever that was your way and it's different in japanese wrestling a lot of people talk about how there's not selling and They don't realize, no, they're selling that they're not hurt.

29:33That's what they're selling. I'm good. I'm good. And then you find out they're not. It's like when you go to the bar and you get drunk, you're not acting more drunk. Right. Trying to act sober. That's that style. And so much of it got taken away because there was one place for it. MTV, like you said, Rockin' Wrestling, then WrestleMania, which were right here now, and everything it would become. I wish more people knew that. I'll ask you this because you're this area. What territory? I mean, you're closest to WWW, which is formerly Capitol Wrestling, D.C., New York. But was there a territory you wish you were close to or you didn't get when you saw these magazines?

30:13Yeah, I mean, to see your dad and Ric Flair. And Ernie Ladd, you know, we'd see Ernie Ladd a lot, but then he would leave. He was my favorite. Big Cat. The Big Cat was like that's a guy I think not enough people really know about how great he was because the footage isn't that great. But I think he and your dad on the stick kind of influenced each other in a certain way. Culturally, they had a similar approach. Thunderbolt Patterson, too. I don't know his. Very similar. And again, there's not enough footage. There's not the magic you're talking about. Ray Stevens in San Francisco. Yes. It's hard to find.

30:50It's really hard to find the footage. And like at the time, Ernie Ladd being 6 '9", an ex-football player, and the thing on his thumb, the foreign object, he was genuinely, you were scared of him, right? You were genuinely believed that guy could do anything. Right. In a way that later that wasn't the case. But what's so cool about wrestling in this era is that everybody plays in it. And I think you got to credit Punk with it some, like what he did that, you know, when he— Yeah, we're a Punk-friendly show. When he really brought that thing into the world, though, and it allowed all the eras to kind of collapse back.

31:25It became the freak show again. I think that's the thing. It's the one thing that I think is hard to put back in is the 10-in-1, the freak show element. That was really a part of it up until rock and wrestling. I have to ask you, because this is such a unique perspective you have on what we do and storytelling. your outlook when you're breaking down an episode, when you're writing something, when you're starting it all. Looking at how you just met one, he just walked by in the hall, and I think he was nervous or terrified about whatever we're going to do tonight, that being Ryan Ward, who helps incredibly with both Monday Night Raw and SmackDown now.

32:05So his workload is intense. Looking at what we do wrestling-wise, if you were to step into the writer's room for a day at WWE, at HQ, is there anything that you would break and change and say no more and is there something you would you would want to see more of you know i'll tell you um i don't have an ego that tells me that i could do another writer's job better than they can do especially you know in in a venue that i'm not expert in i'm a professional wrestling expert fan and I've thought about what you all are able to do and I love watching unreal I don't watch reality tv but I've watched every episode of unreal you like unreal I love it okay I've watched every episode thank you for liking unreal and a lot of people watch it and say they don't like it yeah I mean I can love it I love it and I'll be watching it as long as you guys make it and I love the idea that it presents itself as a shoot and everybody's still working and it's an amazing thing to see that and watch it.

33:15Yeah. That's why I don't get mad at, by the way. They're like, oh, you're peeling a curtain back. I mean, come on. There's 16 curtains here, guys. Yeah, there's so many layers of curtain the whole time. You don't know what curtain. And that's why I kind of, you know, you're just working more. The match is just still on. Of course. That's the thing. If you guys are talking, this is the amazing thing about the era that we're in, is if you guys are talking, you're working. but we can forget it like I can forget that and I can believe it and so I would love to I'd love to go spend a day or two in the writer's room but I read Brian Gewirtz's book and I know Brian a little bit and it's a different era of course but I read the book and understood what he was doing but I think these disciplines I mean it is like if somebody was doing wrestling in Japan there is an adjustment period to come here sure there's an adjustment period uh in any of these disciplines so going from movies to television which is the what i've done or going um writing for different purpose they're different beasts and so sure i can think oh i i know what i'd do but you guys have to put a show on monday night you got to put a show on thursday night you got to set up the live event you got to set up the house show even though not nearly as many you You got to set up all sorts of things.

34:39And every time I think, oh, you know, hitting a referee out of the ring in a false count, I've seen it too many times until I see it the next time and it works on me and it gets me mad. Sure, okay. And then it's like, you know what? They got me. And I think it's really hard. I think it's just really hard to, I think it's a very hard job to be a writer. and I think that Paul and the guys, both Pauls and the guys, do it great. And I think maybe the best thing about Unreal is how it is both, truly I think the most shoot element of it is how uncomfortable it makes Heyman. I love that the camera's been turned on that room.

35:20I think it makes him so uncomfortable. Like he did, when I used to do a podcast, my own pod, Paul and I did like a two and a half hour pod, and it was like one of the first, maybe the first time he ever really truly dropped the character. and it was so hard to get him to do it and so rewarding when he really spoke honestly about his childhood and now he's more comfortable doing it. But that's way easier than getting him to really let you see people making script decisions. I can feel how uncomfortable it makes him because he's a carny at heart. Well, too, I think he's conceded to the idea that, oh yeah, these are good ideas and this is a good grid and this is a good map, but the magic now, and I don't think he'd be offended at me telling you, is he sits up in Gorilla, in the corner of Gorilla, and he looks at what's on paper, and he adds legitimate magic to it.

36:15I just spoke to somebody who said, let's put this together first, then go there. Love it. Then go there. Let's bring him ours and then go there. Because if we go there first, we're not even challenging ourselves as artists. He's the cheat code. And I need the cheat code some nights. Okay, that's a really important thing. So when I wrote you that note, it was because I thought your episode with Cena was like an incredible, I would tell anyone who wanted to break into any part of show business, almost any business to listen to that, because John really chose your show to lay out his entire philosophy.

36:48He did. Also at like 8 in the morning with a live round. And that Christmas suit that David Allen made him that was so nice. and he he he said i want you to have my first words after retirement it didn't work at all and somehow he made it work i thought man you just did you don't have to do this we could it's wrestling right you want to do it the week before of course nope no 8 a.m and it's but it was so great because he if you listen closely to it it gave you a roadmap to be successful at show business how hard you have to work how hard you have to be willing to iterate look at what the data change and what you just said i i just want to translate it for one second is because people all the time want to know oh can i get notes on this idea that i have or this thing and what you said is make it as good as you can by yourself first keep going you know it's not good enough yet do everything that you can see to make something better and then if you have the opportunity to go to someone like Paul Heyman or an expert, then get them to help you raise it to one more level.

37:56But I think people now, because everything's so available in a way you can access people, people write the note too fast, send the script into somebody too fast, try to get the audition too fast, say they should make it up from developmental to the, it's like, do all the work you can and you will be recognized and then try to fight your way to the next level. So you're like, yeah let's get our story together and not have hayman work on the thing not yet and tell us the stuff we'll figure out the next 10 minutes yeah give him the best we can do and then let him elevate it absolutely and there's there's kind of three paths and like branching paths mr hayman might give it a hmm uh i saw this scene once and this is similar and the stakes and what if you said something like that he'll look at it from the the way my dad did we're making movies kid we're making movies kid that was always that we're making movies then if you take it the other way say you can't get that you got michael psa's down the hall p.s is going to take it from the perspective of where does that leave us in the week and then don't you want to get here and that's going to be even better he's taking it from the perspective of the roadmap a little bit more versus that moment in time and then if you take it the other way you take it to bruce pritchard right then bruce is going to speak to you from the perspective of paul bosch and texas and he's got his own the flavors here are so wild that like i said it's a cheat code which some nights you need the schedule can be what it is some nights just hey I've told Kirshenbaum one of our writers there have been one night where I said write it all down I'll say it write it all down most of the time this is my story it's my character I want to get it as good as I can and then you guys fix it up filter it produce it for me one of the things I love about WWE is taking talented people but then producing them.

40:10Producing them and funneling it. And right now, Hunter has a different style funnel, Triple H that being, than Vince had, than any other bookers. He has a different style. That's really fun if you're a player for him to go, hey, I want to be your main guy, but this is my idea. What about this? Try his sandbox, to try and collab and match that idea. Yeah, well, everyone, actors need an actor. Not that you guys aren't actors. You're actors plus athletes plus storytellers. But you need someone to look at it and help tell you, well, this is what it's saying. And it could say something slightly different.

40:50And how would you say it slightly differently? And it's part of the magic of the whole thing. You mentioned the what do you want to talk about. Again, thank you, the Wheatley American Vodka. You mentioned the one with John Cena. I honestly, I'm going to be honest. John has made it a little difficult though because if you work with anyone in the Hollywood side of things who's like, yeah, I worked with John. Oh. Okay, so I'll be first on set by 40 minutes. I'll have more improv ready. I'll be last. He is such an insane hard worker. And I believe in all... I saw this firsthand because we're on an episode of The Bear together.

41:30We're both on the same episode of The Bear. Oh my gosh, yeah. And so I walked on, and I had just heard that morning that John was doing that part. And being, it was, you know, I love being on that show. It's an incredible thing. But there he and I were sitting at a little table before that scene started. And, yeah, he was so prepared and so ready to go and had so many ideas. And everyone loved him. And you're standing next to him. You don't even feel like a person compared to him. He's like, you know, you're looking at this guy who's smarter than everybody and bigger. and works harder and it probably already you know lifted that morning he's it's it's it's a bit of a problem it's a bit of yeah i i'm i'm saying hey there's a few of us who are ready here we always with his challenges why does he have to be so fucking polite i mean he's so fucking polite to people i so the politeness i i mean all of it is the of evolution from the qb spot here like his evolution is so unique to follow and watch i like that i have a little bit of an inside to him before he was fully i guess matured and that that little bit i have is kind of the only way i can remind him like hey bud i i get it you speak all these languages now and yes you're incredibly smart i get it but man like that was why it was so fun working with him was everything i dreamed it would be because he was very hard on me and i thought there was a lot left unsaid yeah but about those car rides i think there's things about those car rides that someone would have to not have microphones to really hear about what was going on with the two of you he was very hard on me when he came back he was very but not in the wrong way I do no service to the title that we brought out here I do no service to the guys I just wrestled trick Williams oh but his first match I do no service unless I have this information he gave me and I try to put it in play and he meant it John meant it when he said the day somebody does all this they can take it the day he meant it and I just hope more guys listening know what that means.

43:45It means all the, he's set an incredible standard and I'm glad you know how this is because you grew up liking the industry. You grew up liking pro wrestling. I always hated its cultural relevancy, how deep it would get its penetration globally. But then the treatment wasn't the same as maybe an actor on a show. It wasn't. And I, to me, you know, my favorite actors, right. Andy Garcia is one of my favorite actors. I love Andy. The other favorite actor I have is my dad. But most people wouldn't know he's an actor. I'm glad that the worlds are starting to come together in a way where it's such a nice thing.

44:22Your dad was also such a good basketball player, right? It's shocking. Just a great, graceful, natural athlete. His whole athleticism, I'll be frank, Brian is bullshit. It's not because he really was. Oh, yeah, it's annoying, though, because he didn't work at it. It's maddening. Him and Harley Race look like big old just barrel-chested heels. They didn't look like they could jump. He had a great jumper, incredible baseball player. My mom always waxes poetic about, oh, he had these beautiful calves. Like all this, I don't know. Athletes were different, but I appreciate that you saw it, because I'm going to ask you too about Bruno and why he was your favorite.

45:09But Dusty, I always am shocked when people think it was his robust and his promo and they don't realize the third part was, oh, he could go in the ring. That was the big. That's what I'm saying. He didn't let you down when you would read about these guys. Yeah. And you would see him and it was as exciting. Well, he had that thing that great natural athletes have. He moved. I think that's part of what he and Ernie Ladd have in common, as different as their body types were. Land on their feet. They both could move. They could move. There was a gracefulness. Big man, who's not a thin big man, who could move with a sense of grace, it's Charles Barkley, right?

45:47It's a fascinating thing to see. It's wild. And you don't often see it. Bruno, can you shoot hoop? Are you decent? Have you seen the video? I haven't seen you play. I'm a good basketball player. So you would be, I don't want you to watch it, because you would be ashamed of me. Oh, no. and so I've seen video of your dad playing basketball that Charlotte police game where he's just sinking buckets uh and leading the team staying in Lex Luger out there no idea what's going on just running up and down uh our friends at fanatics who helped put this whole thing together uh god bless Michael Rubin he wants to do the fanatics fest the games no no lie no hyperbole I missed every shot and Bailey texted me and said is something wrong with your legs I got to see.

46:33Craig, can someone please send me this clip? I got to see. It's so, because they thought like, oh, he's probably got it. Where were you shooting from? Everywhere. It was a, it was a, it wasn't a three-point class. It was just a shoot around. And the guy. Did you have a hoop in your driveway growing up? I did. And I wasn't that bad. But then, so I figured like they've seen it and I wasn't a suit and tie, but it's still no excuse. They've seen it. They shouldn't invite me back. This year, they're like, hey, do it. You're going to do the Fanatics games. Why? I wasn't in the running Put some shots up ahead of time So I think I'm going to go at it again And I think I'm going to try and subvert expectations this time And get close Tom Brady won it last year Put some shots up I played horse with him every day In junior high And I never beat him, ever And one time I got close It was always a hook Always like a little space hook Because he was a huge Dr.

47:25J fan Always the hook Are you ready to hold WWE history in the palm of your hand? Topps is bringing you closer to the action than ever before with WWE Topps Now, highlighting the biggest matches and milestones from WWE shows and PLEs throughout the year. Topps Now is enhancing the fan experience by connecting collectors to the superstars and spectacles that ignite their passion. Featuring stunning event-exclusive photography, each card is made for the moment. And for some lucky collectors, that moment could become the pull of a lifetime. Along with serial numbered parallels, some Topps Now releases offer a chance at rare short prints, superstar autographs, and even pieces of the mat, gear, or other items used during the featured match.

48:14So, which moment will you collect? With each card only available for a limited time, you won't want to wait to begin your Topps Now journey. Be sure to subscribe to the WWE Topps Now mailing list on Topps.com and follow Topps on all social media platforms so you never miss a single moment. You said your favorite of all was Bruno, correct? Oh, yeah. Yes, 100%. So Bruno's favorite. Do you have a top? Do you have, and the worst question that wrestlers get asked all the time, but I feel fair to ask you, and shut it down if you don't want to answer it, Do you have a Mount Rushmore of wrestlers for yourself?

48:54Oh, yeah, I can answer. But it's not going to be the Mount Rushmore. I mean, I've watched all the clips of people. I can't argue with what people say the Mount Rushmore should be. Oh, no, but you're a Mount Rushmore. Obviously, that Mount Rushmore is right. The people who drew the most, they matter the most to wrestling. But coming up in the era I did, I mean, it's the guys that were – it's truly the people that we're talking about. It's Bruno and your dad are the first two people on it. You got to have Ric Flair on there. Great. That's three people. Yeah. And the fourth spot, you know, when you're my age, there were guys on TV who just made you smile like Ivan Putzky, but he doesn't belong up.

49:35You can't put Ivan Putzky up there. Maybe Mil Muscaris. That's a great Mount Rushmore. From back in the day. But if you want to know why, if your question is why Bruno Sammartino. Yeah. And I think he's, you know, in fact, I cared so much that my son, who, and it only matters for this reason, because you'll understand how important studying was to him, not to me. I didn't go to this school. My son ended up going to Harvard. Okay. Yeah, it was great. But here's the thing. His SATs that you can imagine were important to him were 48 hours after Bruno's induction into the Hall of Fame. and I made Sam come with me to the garden.

50:17And he's like, Dad, I have got to really, I have to study for this. I spent my life trying to do this thing. And I was like, no, no, that's true, but it's very important that Bruno's getting in the Hall of Fame tonight. And he's like, I cannot believe you're going to make me. I'm like, well, no, my friends are going to go with me and you got to come with me. And I was like, I couldn't even get into the garden when my dad wanted to take me, so you have to come with me. And he's like, yeah, but I don't care. And then I said, but when you did, I got you to meet Scott Steiner. once and he was like shit you're right all right yeah so um we came together but i decided that night i didn't want to ask any of my friends to get me tickets i just wanted to come here like a wrestling fan i didn't want to be in a special area i didn't want to go backstage i didn't want to i'd locker room i wanted to come like the kid that i was and sit in the bleep like sit in the fucking bad seats and watch bruno get inducted and so i had a bruno sammartino t-shirt and we took the train here and had decent seats.

51:17You know, I sprung for decent seats, it turned out. But Sam, he brought his, like, SAT study guide. And I'm there, you know, I've mostly lost my Long Island accent, but not that night. And I was, you know, fucking Bruno! And I was so excited and fully in character. And he's sitting next to me studying for the SAT. So watching him get in was this incredibly moving thing. And the reason is what you just said about what matters to you, which is never breaking the promise to the fans. Yeah. And there was not a moment. You know, you guys all talked about in the old days. Right. And Paul Heyman's talked about it a lot.

51:54You would protect the business at all costs. And if you were in a bar and someone was acting like a jerk, you guys would have to shut them down. And you get fired. Yeah. Right. Bill Watts would fire you at least. But you couldn't ever acknowledge, you couldn't even allow the question because the business was in jeopardy. And as you know, Bruno's the only guy who never, ever publicly broke, even long after, he refused it. He would tell a story like that when he did Punk's podcast and he told that long story. He still has convinced himself that he lifted up Haystacks Calhoun and that's how he got.

52:33Like he believes he made himself believe the whole thing. And so he made me believe in it. Right. He made he was a lonely guy and he made kids who would have a lonely bad day believe that he was in there for us. Right. Yeah. And when he got betrayed, it was like we got betrayed. And, you know, you go back and look, I'm not a big fan of the perm era. You know, he made like everybody. the guy made him and Ken Patera with the horrible perms, you know, fighting each other. But, um, that guy was a true believer and he rewarded you being a true believer. Yeah. And whether, obviously he knew what was going on.

53:14He, but he, kayfabe was baked so deep into that guy that to his dot, literally to his dying day, he told the story of having a leave to come back and to convince the guy. I mean, he tells the buddy, I think he believes the Buddy Rogers match was a shoot. Like, I think he told it so many times that he believed it. So I still believe it. Like, to this day, I would tell somebody else, you know, Buddy Rogers didn't want to give him the belt. I know it's not true, but it's what I believe in my heart. But, I mean, the man who shot Liberty Valance, you print the legend. And also... One of my favorite movies of all time.

53:54Could be my favorite movie of all time. And I still have a picture of Bruno in my office. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you said he talks about the superstar and how it went down, winning the title. And the truth is, when it's that good, I don't know if they're lying. And that's the beauty. I have grown up in this business. I should know everything for what it is, right? Oh, that's what it really is. There is nights that I still don't know. and that's the one thing I'm so grateful about being a pro wrestler and being in this world is I still have that's why I like Unreal the challenge of Unreal is okay we're gonna show him everything right are we you know like the challenge is uh but also him believing it and I mean to have the soundtrack you hear it all the time now people talk about the chance of Bruno through the garden, the chance of Bruno in Philly, the chance of Bruno being he didn't even need music.

54:58Of course, there was none then, but just the fact that it echoed throughout to be people's... You'll hear this a lot from different wrestling bookers. You'll hear them say, I want to make him my guy. That's my guy. I didn't realize the importance of my guy until later in my career what it really means. It means you are responsible that everyone here had a good time. And if you are beaten up and sad and broken, you still need to make sure that they know at the end of the night, okay, not my guy's night, but it's going to be okay. It's going to be – that's – This is really – what you just said is really – you're getting right to the heart of why this all matters so much.

55:41I don't know if you ever saw Penn and Teller, you know, the magicians. Yeah, I once saw them actually in Vegas. When they did their old show at the West Side Arts Theater, the first show, it had a lot of carny 10-in-1 elements to it. And the end of the show, which Penn doesn't do anymore, but he would eat fire. And he would deconstruct what everybody thinks, you know, cold fire it is to eat fire and why you eat fire and how you eat fire. And he said, you know, oftentimes some guy who's trying to be smart for his date will try to tell them, let me explain to you how this is done. And he said, that's the wrong question.

56:19The wrong question isn't how do I eat fire? That's the wrong question. The right question is why do I eat fire? Yeah. And when you think of it that way, why do you do what you do? Because there is some kid there who needs you to do it. Yeah. who had a day that you can't even imagine today. And one thing after another went bad, maybe very bad. But he can believe in the deal you're making with him that you're going to fight for the good. And it's so important that that exists in a world that offers it almost nowhere. And the fact that every night you guys show up to do that. And you show up because you know that somebody in the...

57:04Yeah, most people, they're just having a fun night out. but for some people and even if it's just one or two people it means the entire world to them and that's the importance of what you're doing it's the thing that a lot of you know maybe people don't understand and why didn't you say well why shouldn't people understand what dusty did in the ring and what he gave of himself and the acting but the people who needed it on that i needed bruno there were nights i mean um when i was 12 and a half and i my closest friend uh committed suicide and you know no one can explain that to you it wasn't an era where there was therapy easily available yeah but bruno san martino was gonna make sure larry zubisco knew that he couldn't betray him yeah and uh it was something to believe in when you couldn't believe in anything else right and that's the that's the incredible thing that uh that cena understands and you understand and the greatest ever do and understand.

58:04It makes me think a little bit about Flair as you're talking because Flair's lived kind of like a live wire. The good, the bad, everything when he's in there. I think I've even heard him say it before. Thanks for needing me. I needed you just as much. I believe it. That's probably, you'll hear me in like a braggadocious sense in media and stuff today, I'll tell people all the time because they talk a lot about, well, Cody's 40 and Punk is this age. And I always say, well, I don't sweat any of it. Like, I don't sweat any of the new class. What I mean is I already know how great they are. I already know the incredible moves and the high spots and the athleticism.

58:45It's like any sport. It's like college football. The speed's been turned way up. I know all that. But until they find the thing that makes you sincerely connect to them, you're just doing a dance with your buddy and and that's not what we're here for and we're in the place that lets you have it for good for bad loudest the longest i mean we're in the garden tonight and i'm excited there's a couple guys this would be their first oh really their first moment oh yeah this is their first moment and to be able to take that and look and and and and i this is a funny thing about baby faces i can always tell a green baby face and i'm not the expert on anything, but I can always tell green babyface, by they come out and they go to slap hands, but they don't look at anyone.

59:32Touch a face, miss a hand that wasn't there, because they're nervous. Because they think this is a thing babyfaces do. Nah, look at them. Look at them. If you only get one, I mean, Sid, he's going in the Hall of Fame. Sid would just do one little fist pound right there. Oh, you could feel it in the whole arena. You wanted to get that fist pound. It's a way to ground yourself to what we're doing, and again, I like you've brought this uh the cena style of why we do this all out um my gosh man thank you for coming on here man thanks for having me what a pleasure this is special um do you miss the old entrance oh no i you know i've been i'm so used to that where i live like i just take the train but i mean the old entrance in the arena you know i know exactly what you're talking about you know i remember the run yes i i have a good story i'll tell you off uh mike about the um there's a lot of stuff I miss about the way things in New York used to be but if you're a New Yorker yeah you have two choices you can like live in this nostalgia of it or you can just move forward at the pace of the city okay so if I think about that I'm thinking about my dad and I'm thinking about coming to those Nick games sure Clyde and Pearl yeah and the crowd chant Bruno and Instead, I'm here with the crowd chanting for Cody.

1:00:51We hope. They'll probably bring me out of the building, one or the other. Yeah, one of those. We're happy with either. Don't suck tonight. We're happy with either. No, don't suck. Just try not to suck, man. And then they'll cheer. It'll be fine. It'll work out. Yeah. I mean, could you just not suck? No, I will. Tonight, I promise you, I give you my word, I will do my best to not suck. There it is. I will do my best. Okay. One more question. Earl the Pearl, what was his manager's name? Oh, the guy who would follow him around was called Dance and Harry. And you could find footage of him. Dance and Harry.

1:01:21And he followed him from Baltimore. And then when he came to the Knicks, it was an incredible thing. He would put a hex on the opposing team, on whoever was playing well or on the coach. And it was like a pro wrestling manager. So we like to do this thing. Wheatley, American Vodka, myself, we consider ourselves the American dream team. And I always want to ask our guests who they consider their dream team. the way to put this is who are you going into a war games with right if you've got five guys or a survivor series match teams of fives strive to survive that's a lot to say with a lisp uh who are you bringing with you to to to those type moments oh that's a that's a good question uh we've had a lot of answers with six people three people two people who who's who's in that circle who's in that orbit honestly i'm bringing becky lynch great choice i'm bringing becky and i'm following her i mean specky came on our show yes and the pressure i've seen professional athletes i've seen uh famous people from other walks of life who all said like oh i'm so i'll never be nervous don't worry i don't have to prepare yeah i'll come in the two people and it's not a surprise uh coach calipari did a cameo and was the same and he's not an actor but he came in cold.

1:02:43He was like, you could give that guy, he was sending me tapes weeks in advance of the speech the character had to give and going like, did I do it right? Is this good? He coached himself up and he was incredible. And Becky was the other one. Becky had a hard scene to do, real acting. And she came in and she had to do stunts and acting. And everybody was freaking out that she was on set and nobody knew what it was going to be like. And she just crushed it. So I would say I would have Becky and I mean you're on there man. Oh I'm honored I think you're the first time a guest has actually picked me for their team.

1:03:17You would be on there. I'm really, listen it's a serious question. Who would you go into battle with? Yes. I mean I gotta stick with folks who I'll tell you I'd pick Paul Heyman too because I want someone to think our way out of the problem. I'm gonna be straight I don't know if he's gonna battle a lot. No no no no he'll stop right before the battle. He'll get us out of it. old school horse commander way up on the hill, you know? Yeah, I think that's my squad. That's it right there? That's my squad. That's a great squad. I think we'd do fine. I'm not just going to throw names at you. I've got to think about who I'd really want in this situation.

1:03:51I mean, yeah. We could add Dance and Harry to curse some people. I mean, I could add a lot of people, but if I'm really thinking about it. I love that. Thank you so much. I'm not just going to pick big guys. I'm not just going to pick, you know, Roman. He's pretty big. I always pick a lot of shooters. like anyone who tells me I'd bring in Chad Gable I'm like yep we'd win you'd pick Brock but then let's say you pick Brock and then the plane there crashes he's going to eat you you're going to be food I've never pulled that thread too far but if you think about it that guy goes out he hunts he could butcher the thing himself you're a fucking dead man he sent me an entire cow that he butchered and cut for the meet and sent me the meet, but he also sent me a photo of him with the cow.

1:04:38You see, yeah, you think that, and that cow thought, I'm good, I got Brock on my side. It's just him with, like, the vest on and just a thumbs up, and it's, I mean, he's an unbelievable, unbelievable athlete. In terms of long-term, you know, storytelling, and when you develop characters for your worlds, is there any time you have pulled from pro wrestling or have a similar approach to maybe how a pro wrestling angle or storyline function in terms of your process creating a character? I mean, I'll answer it really honestly. Wrestling is so deeply ingrained in me from watching it and reading those magazines that there's no way I wouldn't be.

1:05:26But I will say my process, if you're really asking the question, like I'm not very analytical when I do that stuff as a, as a writer, as a, as a, someone working as an artist, I'm really trying to get to a state of flow. I'm not trying to think how can I put these elements together? I'm trying to get to a place where my imagination is just flowing so that when I'm coming up with a character or I'm thinking about what a character would say or feel or think, it's so connected to like, like I, I'm just, you know, there are so many processes I have in place to do that. Like I have to get up, I meditate, I journal, I exercise.

1:06:08So that I'm trying to find a way to trick myself into not letting that analytical part take over so that it's that feeling. I mean, you know it. You know that feeling when you're in a state of flow in the ring. Even though you're calling the mat, you know, whether the heels call, even though you guys are talking and there's stuff coming in. Sure. you're not thinking about the character Cody Rhodes some those the best moments are the moments where you're flying right yes and that's where you know who you are of course you're not but you are in that I describe it as being like barely tethered to the earth but floating but somehow hyper present and I think when you're creating stuff that's the best and so of course um I'm I'm thinking of every double cross I ever saw.

1:06:57And somewhere in me, I'm thinking about what makes a character heroic and valiant. And I'm thinking about everything I've read and come across and watched. And a lot of those formative years were spent during the week. Because remember, wrestling was only on like once a week. Or maybe you could get on UHF, you could pick something up a second time. So you were thinking about all week long. Like, what are those matches going to be? What's Dominic DiNucci going to say? And is Guerrilla going to be? And you were thinking all that stuff through and you were imagining these characters. So, of course, it's in there, but it's not in there in a conscious way.

1:07:32But nothing is really in there in a conscious way. It's all, you take stuff in and then you hope when you're creating, all that synthesizing has just happened and it shows up. Can I have your permission to use state of flow? Yeah, anytime. Because that is me today. Yeah. There was a bunch going on about, well, we could say we need to get here and a little setup for this. And none of it was, why don't we just flow it one time? Why don't we just, we could just pipe dream. What if we say, I love the idea of state of flow. And I feel like state of flow only comes from being prepared. That's what I was going to say.

1:08:09So people can confuse just to follow the Sina thing of trying to give actionable things to people if they're young and they're listening. Yeah. Like, don't ignore all the stuff about, like, the way I got to that place is by doing a whole bunch of stuff. Yes. Meditating, journaling, thinking a lot, reading a lot, watching a lot of stuff. And then you write from a place of freedom. Then you have to rewrite and rework the thing and take those things. And then you apply your analytical mind to, is this strong enough? Is this character real enough? Does the character want something? And I'd say that's the last thing.

1:08:46What's key for professional wrestling? What do these characters in the ring want? And why do they want that thing so badly? And I'm thinking about that in every scene that I write. Because if you think about what does somebody want? Why can't they get it? And why do they need it so badly right now? The rest of it is very straightforward and relatively easy if you're prepared. It's like, what does Cody Rhodes want? And why does he need it now? and what's hurting Cody Rhodes right now that's stopping him from getting that thing? And if he gets that thing, will he finally be all the way home? Oh, no, he won't.

1:09:24He got that thing, but it turns out that other thing moved. And now he really needs that. The other thing always moves, huh? It's got to move. It always moves. Well, it's got to move. Otherwise, it's over. That is an incredible answer. Thank you. My favorite thing here, you might have heard it when I talked to John, But my favorite thing here is I got to learn. I got to sit here and learn just now, and I get to go apply it immediately in the world's most famous arena. Do it. Thank you. This is the Wheatley jingle. I will play it for you, and I will ask you to replace a single word. Baca soda with Wheatley.

1:10:02Wheatley is so good, I drink it. This song right here is for the red, white, and blue. You got good taste, and you drink like it too. Wheatly, so good, I drink it neatly Wheatly, American Vodka So Wheatly, so good, I drink it neatly If we could replace the word neatly with anything, Brian What would you replace it with? Wheatly, so good, I drink it We love that We love that Thank you so much for being here This is an incredible episode And this meant a lot I know you don't do these that often And it's an honor for us to have you. And I say people about the wrestling space all the time. You know, we're here in the garden.

1:10:46It's WWE. But our house is your house. You're part of our family now. Thank you, man. I told myself coming over here that I was going to bring my 14-year-old self with me. Yeah. And I wasn't going to allow myself to be like a professional and cool. And I was going to just be, like I say, bring that 14-year-old, the 13-year-old who couldn't get into the garden. I'm in the garden now, motherfucker. Let's go. Brian thank you guys so much thank you thank you thank you all this is awesome that was great that was really fun man so much thank you dude what a pleasure