What Do You Wanna Talk About? - Undertaker

28:44In a live event, you're going to get instantly, okay, that either worked or maybe I need to do this to make it even better, but it's not something like, eh, I'm going to pull this out on Monday Night Raw or I'm going to try this at the paper. You need some place to try these ideas. And I get trying to protect your talent, but I also agree with you that, But not working does maybe lead to, because iron sharpens iron sometimes. And again, I don't think we need to grind like we did, but I don't think you need not to do live events. When I left WWE, I had made a list of all these different independent wrestlers and wrestlers in Japan, all these different people I wanted to wrestle who I had heard were the Bees Knees, just the most talented, amazing, and often very talented, very artistic, great people.

29:34But one of the things I discovered just on mom and pop indies that I was doing is the no rhythm between each other made it so that you were firing the livest of rounds. Right. And I remember I'd be working with people that had been revered as, you know, you hear like, oh, five stars and all. And they were really athletic and they were really great, but we'd never touched before. So all of the thought that, well, we don't want it to miss either, but oh my gosh i had never yeah i had never walked away with so many shows you know boxer cut here something above the eye i'm just thinking what's the issue and i felt like that's something when it comes to raw or smackdown again not to belabor my point about the live events here but that's a thing as far as just getting a little chemistry with somebody because how often do you have that amazing lightning in a bottle chemistry it's not right it's rare yeah so to to get a good flow with people is important.

30:25I certainly miss them. I want to go kind of rewind a hair because something that's always intrigued me, particularly watching, I'd say this 90 to 95 and even into the Attitude Era, this run that you had, who with you growing up and watching and being a fan of the business, who are you most a fan of? Who was your guy when you were watching wrestling? You wouldn't believe it. From where I ended up as a fan. So I grew up in Houston. So we had Paul Bosch's Houston Wrestling, right? NWA Houston Wrestling. So I loved Mil Mascaris. Oh, wow. Yeah. Flying headbutt. Right? Yeah, yeah. And I say that and people look at me like that would not have been who I thought.

31:17I'm going to get a choice for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if it was the mask and how fluid and how cool he was. I actually ended up getting to work, not against him, but on the same card as him when I was with WCW. Crazy story. Sure. I come back. Talking about living the gimmick. Like, people always, like, man, he lived the gimmick. I remember coming back from my match. Mill had already worked. I go in to get in the shower, and there he is showering with his mask on. Oh, I love it. I love it. He had his mask on. It's one of those things, you walk in, I just stopped like, should I be here right now?

31:57Right. And I was like, oh, man, okay. He protects it back here too. And not that I was watching him in the shower, but it's - At this point, it's okay that you were wearing a mask. He's over there and I'm in this corner. Every once in a while, I would just look back to see if he still had his mask on. And I looked back one time and he pulled it off. And he pulled it off and hooked it onto the spigot there or the nozzle and washed his face and his hair real quick, rinsed off, and it put the hood right. I mean, it probably wasn't 20 seconds. Yeah. And then, I don't know, maybe that affected me later on when I started really having a gimmick.

32:41Like, I always thought back to Mill, like, dude, this guy's even got the hood on in the shower. Well, I feel like there's a ton of synergy now that you bring that up. In a sense, it's completely different styles. Lucha Libre. Oh, yeah. You know, like what you were doing. But what you said, that's the efforts he was willing to go. And to an outsider, as Arne Anderson would say, to a civilian, as Double A would say, maybe that seems so odd. But to you, it's not odd at all. It's what we do. Yeah. If you care and this means something to you, you go to those lengths. It's a lesson learned. I'm curious about Houston because I grew up in – I would watch what was contemporary to me, WCW, in the early 90s.

33:32Crockett is when I first started getting into some tapes and so Mid-Atlantic. I didn't know anything about Mid-South yet, a little Florida here and there. But Houston and Paul, who my mother of all people will always go on record that Paul was one of the greater payoff men. And then the custom jewelry that Paul was. I.W. Marks. Right, yes. I have a belt buckle, the cauliflower ear in the corner, the television in the other. It's one of Paul's. You have one of those? Yeah, I have one of his belt buckles, yeah. But I'm so curious, what made Houston wrestling, because Texas is such a wild territorial situation being such a big, big state.

34:09What made Paul and Houston's wrestling so special? Because Bruce, who's been on this podcast, who, when he came on the podcast, I wanted to run through a brick wall. I never felt more motivated just listening to a man talk about wrestling and what it takes and who's, if you're going to be on top and all this stuff. I just, oh. It's amazing listening to Bruce. And once you can decipher what's real, what's true. Sure. You know. Yeah. But, yeah, it's amazing. No, Houston just had that, you know, so back then you got the guys that are traveling, right? You got Andre that traveled. That's the first time, obviously, I'd ever seen Andre.

34:47I think I was 12, maybe 13 when I met, or not met, but like got to shake Andre's hand. You know, you get to see the Sheik and Abdullah, big Joe LaDuke. Wow, okay. Jose Lothario, the Black Jacks. I mean, all those guys come through there. Yeah. Um, Red Bastine, I don't remember if that name means anything to you. Of course. Yeah. It's just, there was just such a, uh, uh, a ruggedness to it. Like it just like these dudes were, you know, even as a kid, you were like, oh, I remember me and my friend from across the street again, 11, 12 in that, that area. Oh man. And the chic, the original chic, uh, is coming into town.

35:37Right. and we're building ourselves up. My mom had got tickets for us, Sam Houston Coliseum. Yep. And that was like a super huge treat because we were both such big wrestling fans. But so the sheik's going to be on the card, right? And the tickets my mom get are right on the aisle. Oh, I love it. Right? So we're going to be able to, I mean, we're going to be right there, right on the aisle by them. So we're building ourselves up the whole week, right? But wrestling, it was Friday night. So we find out maybe Monday or Tuesday we're going to go. We're talking all week long. Yeah, man, when the sheet comes down, man, we're going to say this to him and we're going to do this and I might throw something at him.

36:24So we got ourselves hyped up all week long, man, what we're going to do to the sheet. Yeah. And you have to understand, like you have to go back and realize how scary the Sheik and Abdullah were, you know, in this time period. Like you believed everything that they did was legit. And we were right there, right? So we'd build ourselves up, man. So here we are. Here comes the Sheik, you know, and he's doing his stuff and he's got his walk. and I like my buddy was in front of me and I was like I'm going for it right so I move him out of the way and I start to lean over this barricade and I'm like like and he darts at me oh gosh I damn near took the whole row out yeah running from him he scared the living crap out of me and in turn like I was like I was Hank Snow and I was hang I was getting out of there because I knew he was coming.

37:29He convinced me that he was going to come over that barricade and get me, man. Yeah, I wiped out. I wiped out three or four people just trying to get out of his way. I love the buildup over the course of the week for the show in terms of you thinking, oh, we're going to say this to him. We're going to do whatever. Because I didn't realize until later in my dad's life, his dad, the plumber, Virgil, that's what he liked to do. Friday night in Texas, in Austin, they would go to wrestling. And what he wanted, it was a release for him. He'd try to fight every wrestler. That's what he'd not really try to fight.

38:09But he'd sit there and yell and scream, and that was his whole thing. And I had always thought they just went as fans. You don't hear that as much anymore these days. Like modern fans are coming maybe for different reasons. But I love the idea of I'm going to let them know. I'm going to let that bad guy, I'm going to let that heel know how I feel. Oh, that's – oh, man. And, of course, Sean told me something one time, and I never forgot it. He was saying, being a bit of a lighter heavyweight, that people would say stuff to him, scream stuff in the ring, whatever. He probably heard all. But he'd always just kind of lean back, and whatever was in that eye, he'd want them to know, hey, I'm a psychopath.

38:50It's something like, oh, I could take – no, maybe I can't take him. Maybe not. And I thought that's such a cool way to look at it because it's not so much the size as much as the intent and as much as the belief and commitment to being in there. Oh, man. Yeah. Sean was amazing on so many levels. I think he was before his time and what he could do athletically. But that was only a small part of what Sean did, what he did. What I always loved about Sean is, again, he could bump and sell and do all this pretty shit. But at one moment, at the right time in a match, when it comes to Dukes, right? It should always, to me, it boils down.

39:36You can do all the flying head scissors and all these other things. But when it gets down, it gets to a point in the match where it comes down to Dukes and fighting, right? And regardless of how outsized he was or who he was in the ring with, when it came down, you believed him. Yeah. Right? And that's a gift to have. Because a lot of people, you don't, it's like, eh, eh. Yeah, stick to the high-flying stuff. Sure. But Sean had that thing in him, that dog, I guess, is what you. That dog in him. He had that dog in him. That look in his eye that you're talking about was like, hey, we got to go to Duke's?

40:12Yeah. We're going to go to Duke's. And, I mean, I'd say there's probably no one that I had rather work with than him. Talking about chemistry and all that, man. I could have a match with him. Well, not now. But when we were going, I could have a match with him and just like. It's a night off. Yeah, it's so easy. I always say it's like a night off, but it's a night on. You're discovering all new stuff and everything's hitting as well. You mentioned that dog in them. I think the first guy, as I started looking at the wrestling industry from the, okay, how do we do this? How, what was the makeup of this person?

40:49But someone else who had that dog in them, I didn't realize this was Tully Blanchard. And I watched a lot of, I've watched all these random tag team hot tags this week where Tully met the guy on the ropes and had to fight his way out. And it was just a completely different sense of it. I don't know if I've ever told you this story, but one time Hunter told me, he's like, you've got the same exact thing. He's like, you've got to be able to go for it. You've got to be able to hang in there. It doesn't mean you're not going to take your licks, but you're getting back up. You're coming again. So he told me, he said, at this point in your career, I was a bad guy.

41:22I was doing Dash and Cody Rhodes. He said, don't be afraid to run back in there. Let that baby face know and take one more. One time I ever tried it, one time, was Booker. and uh and booker's in there just doing booker you know what i'm saying and i let him know i'm yelling screaming so because i had last thing i want to do i'm not trying to break the flow of this up you got to hit me and i slid in there and i as it's like it was magic he turned around and that giant booker hand just right here and just eardrum gone right away and i just he hit you with his working punch i mean yeah i went down and uh i went to the back and i remember i just looked at hunter he had he don't remember him telling me that story and i just went well didn't really work you know um you mentioned his uh working punch one of my favorite things with t book ever was i wrestled him when he had come off commentary so there was a little rust for sure but i ain't pointing that out this is that i'm always going to try the the veteran is going to lead that this is anything that goes wrong it's going to be my fault right even if you know yeah i don't think that was but it is my fault right but he was in the corner lighting me up with chops but his head was moving so he wasn't looking at me so he's chop here and then looking back and i i come back full handprint on my face just all scratch on my neck and he was right in front of me and i'll just never forget he's screaming follow that shakespeare he's going on his whole bit and i just everyone i was looking at everyone like yeah yeah guys it got considered considerably better but i'll never forget because now guys get in the corner they go to chop you it's so deliberate and so but man he was literally just flying all over man he was feeling it right he was he was feeling it and it was worth it that he was feeling it you know it was worth it that's funny i i back in the day uh i'd be in the ring with Rock.

43:18And I don't know if you ever noticed, but Rock would love to have your back to the Tron. And we were working one night and he is just wearing me out. He's got me up against the ropes and he is just pounding me. He's not looking anywhere close. He's just watching himself whip my ass on the Tron. It's like this. And I'm like, hey dude, if I will sell for you, Can you at least look me in the eyes while you're beating my ass? And then he popped. He laughed about it. It was just like, come on, man. Oh, he was all into it. Boom, boom, boom. Just kidding. You guys have a giant Tron. Oh, huge. Just the Tron itself.

44:02Oh, my gosh. You pick up everything. It was just, come on, man. Big news. WWE and sports fans, the world's number one sports fan festival, Fanatics Fest is making its return to New York City. Fanatics is bringing you closer to the leagues, teams, superstars, and athletes you love across four action-packed days in July. Meet your favorite WWE superstars, get your hands on exclusive merch, catch live podcasts, and interact with the biggest names in sports. Tickets are on sale now, and fans of the podcast can use code CODY10 at checkout for 10 % discount. Head to FanaticsFest.com to get your tickets today.

44:44You mentioned The Rock. You mentioned The Final Boss, which is I struggle to know how I would ask you this because I don't really talk about it that often because I don't want to ruin what it was. And I don't know if we could ruin what it was, but just it was such a special thing to me. But obviously, we have to talk about WrestleMania 40. and from my perspective i'm very curious as far as your perspective on it but people will look at that and it's i see all the time the greatest five minutes in wrestling history which is hilarious because within the five minutes uh section they cut out it's just me laying there selling so i'm there you know but uh hey sometimes you gotta set the table you gotta set the table i'm in there and then just sit back and look at your handiwork i am in the corner uh but this moment uh i can tell you that hunter uh talked to me a lot about what i was looking at as far as what is what do you want that to be what is what what's what is it and and the rivalry with roman and i is is rather rather real so it's just is one of those things you don't talk a lot about and i i kept telling him i don't it's i'm too close to this all you whatever play you call we're gonna we're gonna run it but I describe it as actual magic is basically what happened in front of me and again John Cena comes down first to neutralize solo Sakoa John rolls to the backside but I can see him he's on the backside he's up against the wall after rocket came out to neutralize John Cena And then, of course, the bells hit.

46:28And the part to me that was so wild, because you know how a blackout looks in the arena. It's not always a blackout in the arena like it is on TV. But you kind of pulled a little bit of a Yoda move where you're walking around backstage real slow and just kind of conserving your energy. And then the speed to which you roll in the ring. You can hear it. You can hear it. It's like listening to a guy at a wrestling school do a roll for the first time and do it right. You sped in there and stood right up. And then when the reveal comes up, there you are. This moment happens. Grab him. Give him a big choke slam.

47:09He goes up for it. Boom, big moment. And then you did the coolest thing is you look back knowing what was happening in the entire match. You look back at me, and of course, I was in a cell, so the moment wasn't what maybe you had envisioned. But you look back at me just to give me a little, like, I got him. It's yours now. I got him. But then you winked. And I tell people this all the time. It went like this. And when you winked, the lights went out. And I remember thinking, he's shoot fucking magic.

47:49And I couldn't, like, I'm going in my mind through the how, oh, did he, did they know? Did they see him do it? No, they didn't because you turned your back to the hard game to look at me and give me that moment. And that moment accompanied by I saw John's eyes and he just watched and kind of just, like, gave me something, you know, just a nod, whatever it is. I'm sure you know, but that did so much, not just for the match and the match as it stands today, not just for the spectacle of WrestleMania, not just for WWE history because WrestleMania 40, it's a 10-year mania. It's everything. It's past, it's present, it's future.

48:37It's all those things. But the amount of people who did honors for me and put me over to go over in that moment, I can never, never tell you enough times how grateful I am for it and how special it was and how honored I was and still am. And not only that, pressure in terms of look at what they did. Don't screw this up. Look at what they did. Don't honor what they did. I say it all the time. Does this honor what we did here? And I don't use it in a political way. I mean it. We did all this. Do we honor it? Am I still honoring it? And I just, if I didn't get the opportunity to tell you in person, I'd be kicking myself.

49:26Thank you very much. I mean, thank you. It was a wrestler's dream to have Hall of Famer, Hall of Famer, Mount Rushmore, guy, everything right there. My childhood, in addition to that, someone who also taught me things, someone who I drove around, all of it. Every piece of it. I couldn't ask. I didn't want to come back and tell my wife. I didn't want to tell her, hey, well, we peaked. I didn't want to say that because I knew like, hey, the road begins now. But I also knew if I never was in that spot again, I was incredibly lucky that I was ever there in the first place. Yeah, no. And the only thank you I think anybody would ever want is for you to do what you've done and continue to grow and grow the sport and take that and go to the next level with it.

50:16I mean, that's the only thank yous that anybody would ever ask for. It was an incredibly, incredibly special moment. Even for us, obviously for you and what's about to happen for you. But, you know, for all of us to be in there again, you know, me and Rock to be in the ring together again, all those things. It was just such a cool, cool moment. And, yeah, I wish I could say that the eye wink and the lights going out were my doing. I know it was. That was just fate. That was a cool, that just happened. But, yeah, man, that was just, again, setting the table for you and an incredible run. And I love the way and how serious that you take this business.

51:04And, yeah, it was just fun. It was a fun night. And the only reason that I moved so fast is because you don't want to screw that up. Yeah, you got to be up for it. Right. You got to be up. They can't do the reveal. Hold up, guys. Hang on. Old man moving in here. Yeah. So it was funny because I'd had just the, probably what hadn't been a year yet, that I had both my knees replaced. Oh, wow. I did them both. So they bring me into the bowl to load me, right? And they brought me in at one end of the stadium, and I had to get underneath a hard camera. Make it as difficult as possible. Where I was going to stage.

51:46Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the sequences are starting to happen. And they're like, okay, we got to hurry. I've never run on my new knees. Oh, my gosh. Never. Okay. And I'm like, okay, here we go. Yeah. And here I am, man. And I'm like, holy shit, I'm running. Yes. This ain't happened in a while. And it feels pretty damn good here, right? So I may have got a little gassed. Yeah. You put those knees to test? Yeah, the knees were like, I was like, holy shit, I can still go. Yeah. No, absolutely not. I mean, in a way, you did. Well, I got to where I had to get. I got to where I had to get, and then I got to the ring and got in the ring and standing up before the lights come on.

52:32So it was all good. Double knees, and after that, no complications, right? You didn't, like, go back to the hospital after that. They're good. Oh, yeah, no, the good. These knees are solid. The knees are, yeah, the knees are good, man. Yeah. My brother Chicken just got the double knee. Yeah, it sucks, man. Yeah. It sucks. I kind of want to mess with him on it. I might even see him later try and challenge him with something that clearly, if he just had double knee surgery, he's not capable of doing. How far out is he? What, a month or two months? Oh, yeah. You can come slap him in the back. Yeah.

53:03He can't catch you. Something like just really frustrating. Yeah. You mentioned, too, taking it seriously, the future of the sport, evolving it, growing it, going through whatever challenges present themselves and just trying to leave it better than we found it. You're very much in terms of looking at the future of everything, AAA, AAA. You were in Mexico City. You're there at the monitor. What are you seeing in terms of what you're doing now and what you want to do with the future of sports entertainment, in pro wrestling and the sport in general? Yeah, helping out with creative and doing some stuff with AAA.

53:45I'm trying to, like my vision is to almost take a step back to step forward. um yeah i'm i'm i'm really high on on the on the physicality and the and the actual in-ring stuff and things making sense um which is which is kind of difficult uh from where i've come from and then working with triple a oh yeah uh you know the the the lucha the the lucha libre legacy is incredible, right? With the mask and then there's so many, like as you are a legacy, there's so many, you know, there's this guy who then has a son, who has a son. So all these legacies and all this culture is in there. So I don't want, what we're trying to do is honor that, but give more production value to the product and help storytell a little better.

54:57I think that's the biggest thing. Talking about incredible athletes and the things that they can do, it's amazing. And the following they have is amazing. So if I can take the best of Lucha Libre and the best of what I know and I can mold them together, I think we're going to have something that's really, really special down there. Yeah. And but that's the key is trying to not I'm not trying to make triple A Lucha Libre. I'm not trying to make it no raw or Smackdown WWE. I'm taking some elements of that, adding it to what they already do. Right. And try and make a product that that everyone will want to see.

55:38And it's an alternative. It's just like the, you know, the other company, raw, Smackdown, all these other, you know, TNA. just to give people a variety and different things to enjoy about wrestling. I was going to ask you a specific question thinking about AAA and what you would tell someone moving into the future, but I feel like I'm going to kind of specify here because I'm actually very interested in this. This is something at my school, the Nightmare Factory, I have yet to figure out how to even address with people because a lot of young wrestlers want to do a big-time gimmick. And I'd say big time gimmick, that's spooky, mystical, artsy, whatever it may be.

56:22And I heard a term the other day about someone backstage. And I thought, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. They referred to somebody as a proper lighting guy. And because basically, they needed all the smoke and mirrors. But they couldn't be seen in this setting. And I thought, hmm, that's not the case with you. in a sense that you were out there full dead man and this is throughout all the runs american badass dead man everything as striking and jujitsu got involved in it and like all your evolutions all that you still were able to be in some of the greatest backstages of all time not proper not proper lighting not and it didn't break the mold right on the character what what do you tell someone who's entering that space of 100 layering on a big time gimmick you know i could say proper lighting but something spooky something mystical something that's really fantastical what would you tell them about how do you get it actually because to me you're this anomaly whenever we talk about this and then bray wyatt an anomaly in terms of they were able to make it work.

57:30The bell rang still and they were wrestlers. So how, what's the secret to that formula in terms of being that gimmick? And I don't want to use the word gimmick, but being that character, but making it translate into all facets of how we do TV. Yeah. As corny as it may sound, like you, you have, you have to believe to a certain degree that you are that gimmick. And again, that kind of goes back, you know, people, man, you live the gimmick. You did this and you did that. It helped me when I was in the airport and I was all in black and people were like, oh crap, you know who that is. Although I wasn't in my ring yet, but it was obvious like, dude, that's the undertaker.

58:13And although it was different, but it was the same. And, you know, my interactions were always very calculated with people outside of our dressing room or whatever. Yeah. I mean, they got to see me, but I was very calculated. So living the gimmick is, but you have to believe in what you're doing, right? You can't just like, okay, I'm this guy now. This is what I am. one you have to find something that that that resonates with you yeah right you you have to have that that that sometimes it could be it's even luck sometimes yeah that whether you find it or whether you don't find it but you have to commit to in my opinion to make something like okay yeah he's different like i knew people that knew i wasn't dead yeah but just figuring it out Like you said, how you would deal with someone in the airport, how you deal with someone.

59:16When you were in full, you figured each and every one out, and it made you more of the character. Yeah. It just gave you more tools. Right. I'd only – Sina explained that one time about when he was doing the rap gimmick, and he was rapping everywhere. He'd go to a station. He'd do local press. And he said that's where he figured out his rapport. That's where he figured out his kind of brand guidelines to basically stay in it all the time. Yeah. To stay in that all the time, but without insulting anyone either. Yeah. To me, that's. And that becomes the difficult part, too. Because, you know, even early on, they would, crazy enough, they would book Paul Bear and I to do Regis and Kathy Lee.

59:59I love it. I love it. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, I'm hearing it and I'm going, why would they do that to me? Yeah. Right? I mean, I can't interact. Yeah. Because you know how Regis was. Yeah. He was a big wrestling fan, and he wanted to have fun and play. And then Kathie Lee was Kathie Lee. Yeah. And, you know, so trying to navigate those kind of waters. And sometimes you just have to, like, I'm going to come off like a dick here to them. Yeah. But my fans and the people that dig what we do are going to totally, like, all right, shit. because so many times when you get into a different genre or a different, you just naturally kind of gravitate whatever they're doing, right?

1:00:46And you let your guard down. So I had to have that mindset like, okay, you're going to, you know. I remember them cutting up. You know, producers come back and, okay, Kathleen's not much into wrestling. She's probably not going to say anything. You know, Regis, it'll all be with Regis. So you get out there and then she starts chirping. Right? She starts saying different things. And it's like, okay. So, you know, I'm just like, you know, I'm like, oh, you're in a bad mood. And where you want to, like the inside of you just wants to be like, shut up. Like, I'm working here. Right? But, you know, obviously you can't do that.

1:01:32But you have to, you know, you just have to make the best of it. But, you know, there were times where, like, I just, like, I had to live it. Yeah. There's layers to live in the character, too. Around the time you mentioned Regis and Cat Lee, and that's, I wanted to ask you, and I thought, I don't want to ask him a question that's. like a clickbaity type question. Oh, here we go. I do feel this era of, this is my childhood, this era of WWE and this era of WCW as well. You, I don't know how many people had the same, your chemistry with Brett and your chemistry with Sean. You were just the, like the trio.

1:02:16I feel like I don't want to ask, but I have to ask, did you have one you preferred wrestling? or was it more what you were doing in the like the creative of it all i i because you hear there's always like an argument now i love them both growing up yeah sean was my guy right but then as i got older i'm like oh no brett's i didn't even see all this you know brett's doing something completely different here and just an appreciation for them both being so great but you got to be in there with them yeah all of you priming up yeah just getting better did you have one you preferred You know what? I could lose a bet in either one of them.

1:02:53You know what I mean? They were both great. They were both so good in the ring. I probably had the very best chemistry with Sean. Yeah. But I tell you what, I've said this a few times about Brett because Brett didn't want to talk about living this and believing everything. Brett did. And I respect that. When Brett was a champion, he was the champion, right? And he conducted himself as a champion from top to bottom. So when I started working with Brett, I was real, real heavy, even in my ring work with the character. Yeah. Right? I was still trying to establish all of that. And there was only so far Brett was going to go with, as he called it, the Frankenstein.

1:03:45Sure. There was only so far he was going to go to put me over with that. And I had to, you know, obviously he was a more tenured guy. He was higher up than me, so not a lot I could do about it. And I wanted to have great matches, and I wanted to work with guys like Brett. So being able to work against Brett forced me to learn how to work within the gimmick. I love it. Yeah. With, and have not just a gimmick match, but to have really, really good matches. And Brett forced me to get out of the comfort zone of the, you know, the Jason Voorhees, the Michael Myers stuff, and actually put on a wrestling match.

1:04:33So for that, I'll always be grateful to Brett because he pushed me and made me become better. Yeah. And then, you know, I've always said this about Sean. Like, Sean may be the only guy I've ever known that could have a five-star match with a broomstick. I mean, he's just that talented. But, hey, I'll give you first pick. I'll take the other guy. Right? Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. The fact that you got to navigate the waters in terms of you had the great matches with both of them. You're very much part of their stories, and they're very much part of your stories. I'd heard you say that about Brett before, and I think that's really cool because at what point does that happen?

1:05:12You're kind of getting hit, always coming back up, getting hit, taking so much to keep you down. For example, the amazing arm in the casket segment, which just selfishly, do you remember who produced this segment? Was it Bruce? Probably back then. Yeah. When we did it, it was probably Bruce. Yeah. I would imagine, yeah. Because it's as modernized and as high res as it is, it's also the most old school thing you've ever seen. Like you felt that you took, oh, what can we do? We can't keep him down. No, we can. This is how we're going to do it. And I thought, oh, poor you had to get just lacquered with this chair over.

1:05:56But it's such a great segment. I'm glad it was Bruce because you know how much your Bruce is everything. You're just Bruce's – I consider myself a bit of a Bruce guy because he came back and got me. He literally found me, got me, and I'm loyal to him. When I came back from WrestleMania 39, it was all so real. Man, I don't know if I'm going to be able to a full year on this chase, whatever. And he was the first one to be there for me. But Bruce, every story relates to something with you. Every story ends up going back to something with you. And I'm sure you know that already. But yeah, that segment's an amazing segment.

1:06:34It was selfish. I wanted to know who's behind it. It felt very much like a Bruce segment. Yeah, Bruce had most of my, those early days, Bruce did most of my stuff. All of the flesh freezing vignettes in the cemeteries and all that crap that we did. I got to ask you, and I didn't think I would ask you, because I try to avoid dusty talk on here a lot. Because you've done Dale Jr.'s pod, right? Have you ever done Dale? We've never been able to hook up on it. He's the best. Yeah. I've heard that. I noticed when I watch other race car drivers and other people, it all ends up being a talk. They talk a lot about his dad.

1:07:08Yeah. And he said one time in a full, basically, you know, like we all do, sometimes you see what the critics and haters are saying. I saw him one time give like a little bit of a prologue in a sense like, hey, guys, we're going to talk about my dad on the show. So if you don't like it, I'm sorry. Right. This is a legendary race car driver who raced with him. And I try to avoid it, but often it's hard to avoid. that your debut in WWE, your debut. Yeah. And I always look at it a little differently because it's your debut. And I think my dad was also on the way out. Yeah. Leaving. Yeah. How was that?

1:07:41Was it fun or was it terrible? No, no. It felt like you're walking through everyone basically and nothing's fully established yet. You know, I don't think we're tombstoning yet or. Yeah, well, yeah. Coco got, ended up getting the first tombstone. Which was very brutal. But my sense, and I could be totally wrong, it felt like it had to be pretty rough. Yeah, well, it was. The marching orders on like, hey, this is what's happening. And you've got some who's who in there. So you didn't have to know at the time, but almost everyone in WWE had been a massive star in a territory somewhere. Right. So they'd done the top for them.

1:08:18And now coming up, it was a different ballgame. Right. So can you speak to that? Because now I'm thinking about my dad takes this like goofy throat chop. I don't even know what it is. Uh, but my early strike was a, was a underhand chopped to the throat. It's a, it's an amazing, uh, the, uh, debut for you. And this is a survivor series. How was that day? Uh, it was nerve wracking, right? Cause I'd had the, you know, I'd had the little, not a run. I wouldn't even consider it a run. So, you know, in WCW and, um, you know, obviously they tell me, you know, they got nothing for me. And, um, so I ended up there.

1:08:58and now I have this incredible gimmick, right? Like no one, like we don't know where it's at yet. We're still trying to, and I'm still trying to figure out what it is that I'm gonna, what this guy is. I just know he's gonna be methodical, slow paced right now. And I'm gonna debut at Survivor Series and in the ring is Bret Hart and Jim the Enville-Knight Hart and Honky Tonk Man and Ted DiBiase, Dusty Rhodes. Yeah. You know, and then they come and tell me, yeah, you're going to pretty much steamroll. Whole team. Everyone. Yeah. And, and again, I think a lot of the guys that were in that ring were finishing up and not, and some of them begrudgingly.

1:09:44Yeah. Okay. And I'm like, oh boy, this is. What a rough day. Yeah. Yeah. This is popping. Like, yeah, I gotta, like, I gotta go out and get myself over. Yeah. I got this new gimmick that I don't know exactly what I'm doing yet. And I've got a bunch of disgruntled people that are going to have to sell for me. Disenfranchised. Disenfranchised. Your producer's probably not helping you that much. You've got to actually do this. Yeah. It was a bit nerve wracking. And then that era of guys, too, they were salty, man. Yeah. Especially if you're getting finished up and moving out of the territory. Sure, then follow the money, too, in terms of if you weren't working.

1:10:25This is a little bit right around guaranteed pre-guarantee time. Yeah, pre-guarantees. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it was a little tense out there, you know. And, you know, you can hear a few guys chirping here and there. Oh, he'll get a sale for this kid, you know. And I was like, oh, brother. You know, here we go. But and then being in the ring, again, like with your dad, who was, you know, When I, he's one of the guys that obviously that I watched, you know, loved his, all the stuff with him and flair and that whole, you know, decades of battles. And then, yeah, you're standing across the ring from these guys.

1:11:01Right. And yeah, it was, it was a nerve wracking day. And eventually, yeah, me and your dad fought out. Yeah. We fought out. We both got counted out. That was how. This doesn't sound like it the way that it's tricky. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they had to get me out. So I murder all these other guys, but then they have to get me out to eliminate me. But they don't want to pin me, obviously. So yeah, me and Dusty get to fight out. And I lose on a count out. Do you remember? Was he difficult? No, no, no. He was great. Yeah? He knew. Yeah. Oh, I love hearing that. No, he knew. His face makes it look like he was being difficult.

1:11:44No, not at all. OK, good. No, no, no, no. Yeah. Come on, keep it up, baby. Yeah? Yeah. No, not at all. Your dad knew business. I mean, it was just what it was, man. I think he had a knack, like you said, and most people don't realize because you look at from maybe the selfish, the whole body of work, a booker, a champ, all these things. But when we'd watch wrestling, modern wrestling, ECW was a thing when I was growing up. I'd always watch him watch it. And that was what you just said was something I realized. he gets business yeah like it might be totally different but he gets like no this is working we're we got to roll with this we got to this is what this is what the direction this is what ear to the ground sounds like and like you're the same like it's crazy lucha libre triple a i mean but then you have mel mascaris that's your guy growing up and now you're down there and you're you're part of that wonderful tradition and you said something that thank you for saying it because i like to take things this is my this is again we don't have the live events i have this podcast So I get to talk to the greatest of the greats and hear something.

1:12:47You said take a step back to then take a step forward. Right. Thank you. What a great, because there's always a challenge. We joked about the record house, all that. Well, those eventually, you know, and then it's your gig to bring them back and to take a step back to take a step forward. It's really, man, it's a really nice way to put it. My gosh. What's old will be new again. Yeah. Right. yeah man i'm so glad i asked about survivor's shoes he wasn't he was he was in a good mood huh yeah oh yeah yeah no it was yeah everything was everything was good man man what a rough run you're coming in and murdering a lot of guys and doing a pal driver yeah i do it yeah so that was you know i've told the i've told the story like i kind of blew it off because i didn't really think it was that bad yeah and i don't really i don't like once i became once i became undertaker yeah Like I watched, of course, I was doing my outside like studying like on Michael Myers and all the, you know, all of the slasher killers and then trying to figure out how to incorporate all that to what I wanted to do.

1:13:55Yeah. But I kind of stopped watching. I didn't know what was going on in Japan. I didn't know what was going on in WCW. I was so focused on what I was going to do. And then I was watching the guys that I was competing with. so i i didn't have a lot of uh you know my knowledge on wrestling is is was pretty small in the sense of what other people have done sure so i i give the first tombstone to coco beware right yeah and we get back and again this is again i think he was one of the guys that was going to finish up i don't think he ended up finishing up yeah he was on the list of guys that we're finishing up so we'll get back in the back and he gives it gets kind of gets in my face which is kind of was kind of humorous too because you know kogo's not a tall guy but uh he's like giving me the riot act in this hallway about hey man if i'll give you my body you got to protect me and uh which i'm yeah absolutely yeah but i'm i don't know like that the two i didn't know that It didn't feel like I thumped him.

1:15:05No, not at all. Yeah. And, you know, and he's like, you got to protect me. You know, he's really giving me the riot act. And I'm like, I'm apologizing. Yeah. Like, dude, that is not my deal. Like, I don't, you know, I want to be safe. And like, if I hurt you, I apologize. Yeah. Right. I don't know what else I can say. And we keep going, you know, and he keeps going. And I guess he's, you know, he's upset and he's got a bunch of other stuff going on his mind too. So it finally gets to a point where I'm like, bro, I've apologized to you. Now, this is my first day in the company. And now I'm already having this issue, right?

1:15:44And I'm like, do we have to go out in the lot? Right. I mean, that's not what I wanted. Obviously, that's not what I wanted to do. But I didn't know what else. You could only cuss me for so long. You've made your point. I mean, I don't know what else I can say. And you guys didn't go in the parking lot? No, no, we didn't. He left. I mean, you know, and we were fine. We were friends and everything was cool. But it was just in the moment. There's not many locker room arguments anymore, but I do find that they all do end at that point. Yeah. Whereas, okay, are we fighting? Like just a classic, are we fighting?

1:16:23Is that, no, we're not. Okay, then you can only say sorry so many times. Right, yeah. I mean, you have to, yeah. Yeah, if, you know, that's just the point you have to go, okay, we got to go somewhere else with this. And nobody wants that. But it's the era, too. It was just kind of like, it was salty. Last fight I remember was Big Show and Khali. That was the last fight I remember watching. It's so funny to hear the different descriptions on how the fight went. You know, like some people talk about hearing the thunderous blows because they were so big. And they were both hitting each other so hard.

1:16:57and then the fight ends because Show fell off the suitcase, right? But then he was upset because it looked like he had lost the fight. Somebody might have told him he lost. He did, so you told him he lost. One of my favorite things in life is I love Show. I truly do. But he has been on the receiving end of many, many ass chewings for me. and all of it out of that love because I knew how much potential and talent that he really had, and I wanted him to use all of it. But he did receive a lot of grief from me. Yeah. And he hit Khali so hard. I had to look behind Khali to see what was holding him up.

1:17:51He ate a right hand. Okay. He ate a right hand from Big Show. Yeah. That's the sound, that sound that, it sounded like dropping a big ribeye steak on the counter. All right. And it was like, ooh. Kali just took a couple steps back, and then they locked up again. And Big Show was getting to him a little bit. But then he trips on the suitcase, and they end up in this little bitty locker, like the wooden locker with the seat. So Big Show falls into it with Kali on top of him. Um, and, and then that's when, uh, when, when Regal gets involved and fishhooks Kali to pull him off. It was so good. It was good.

1:18:33Oh, good stuff. But the show was getting to him, but I never let him know. I was like, oh man, Kali, he, man, he was on top of you, man. Your way you were with show, big show who I love your way you were. I don't know if anyone else has ever told you this. he often will say, Taker told me this, Taker told me this, Taker told me. He was really big on reiterating something you had taught him. And I don't know if I've told this story on the podcast before, but I had a moment with a show that was, it changed my entire career, but I was wrestling him for 10 nights in a row just on an overseas tour.

1:19:13And it was before we had wrestled at WrestleMania. And he was beaten, the first three or four nights we were doing so much ha-ha. Right. hit me. They found this rubber chicken one time, beat me with it and kept asking me to feed up and get hit with it more. And then I had me spit someone's drink in his mouth. It was just a lot of kind of like this vaudeville comedy. And I don't know what was striking me at the time. Again, like there's other stuff going on with you. And usually your dancing partner has to somehow hear about it or feel it because you, it's hard to keep it all contained. But I told them myself, I'm going to go in the locker room.

1:19:50I'm going to tell him, hey, I don't really want to do the comedy stuff anymore. And I'm talking myself up on the bus. And I've got a good relationship with him. He seems to listen to my ideas when I have them. So, OK. And I just told him. I said, hey, I don't want to do Ha Ha anymore. I want to get this to the right place before WrestleMania. And he was not happy. But he kind of, I could tell he looked at me and wanted to probably say something meaner. but then maybe rethought it and he just looked at me though and he goes okay well then you should get over and he left and I thought yep yeah that's right and we did more comedy for the next six nights than we had ever done and there was a lesson in it all because I remember he's like did you hear him out there like when you come back you have equity with this crowd right you entertain them on this random live event show that didn't have a lot of things on it they'll remember yeah they'll remember everything and he was dead on yeah dead right people still talk about silly stuff that we did and like the rubber chicken is still somehow involved in my career to find its way into the ring all the things you've done yeah yeah that rubber chicken yeah i know but are you ready to hold wwe history in the palm of your hand tops is bringing you closer to the action than ever before with WWE Topps Now, highlighting the biggest matches and milestones from WWE shows and PLEs throughout the year.

1:21:22Topps Now is enhancing the fan experience by connecting collectors to the superstars and spectacles that ignite their passion. Featuring stunning event-exclusive photography, each card is made for the moment, and for some lucky collectors, that moment could become the pull of a lifetime. Along with serial-numbered parallels, some Topps Now releases offer a chance at rare short prints, superstar autographs, and even pieces of the mat, gear, or other items used during the featured match. So, which moment will you collect? With each card only available for a limited time, you won't want to wait to begin your Tops Now journey.

1:22:00Be sure to subscribe to the WWE Tops Now mailing list on tops.com and follow Tops on all social media platforms so you never miss a single moment. Have you ever heard my Royal Rumble story about you? I saw a small clip of it. Bro, dude, so much of it is special to me. But there's also this lack of preparation. And then when I go to the garden, there's this feeling of the show. That was the last time that the short entrance was at the garden, the old school entrance. I think it's welded over now. It's impossible. Yeah, it can't even come out the side anymore. But, you know, it was my first Royal Rumble.

1:22:42and CM Punk is backstage. And I remember him telling me, he's like, what do you got planned? I don't know. I throw another guy out, like joke around. I don't know. He's like, well, no, it's like you're 30 to 90 seconds, man. Like, got to do something. Right. So now I'm thinking, what an idiot. I'm an idiot. I should have talked to all these guys because he's getting deep in the day. Right. You know, like I should have come up with something. So I talked to him, like, can we do this? Yeah, of course. Yeah, it sounds great. I'm like, oh, thank gosh. That spot I did with him last maybe nine seconds.

1:23:10Nine seconds. Yeah, it's so quick. and it's like the spot happens with punk where i think it was like a reverse atomic drop and he i almost dump him out which was not a good call because he was a beloved baby face at the time and i was just kind of on the come up but right when that happens it's like they missed production missed that whole spot but then they're like hey it's cody's he's in there he's in the center so it's just me on the video wall right in the center i'm not doing anything now so i have this second or two to think, what could I do? And then you were in the corner. I just remember what Randy had taught me and what everyone else, I thought, yeah, I'll just, yeah, he's the big dog in the yard.

1:23:53So I'll go after him. And I'm not thinking about part two of this. I'm just thinking, they're on me. I can't not commit. I can't freeze. So I run up behind you. And I always tell people, I hit you really super hard. I don't think I did. but I think I hit you hard enough that you could not not sell you could not you had to know someone was at least behind you had to register yeah I had to do something but I hit you in the back and then I saw you flip your hair and and you you started backpedaling again in the slasher style and you're turning I'm oh man oh like I'm the heel now um and they're filming now they're on just us it's a two shot this this looks like it was a pre-call this looks like the spot but this isn't the spot I would have ever prepared.

1:24:38And now I'm thinking, well, obviously he's, you just sell at this point. This is an easy gig at this point. Not my ideal go, but just sell. He's going to goozle you, whatever it may be. And you did. So you goozle me thinking, well, here we go. I'm going up. And this is the era of jump as high as you can, which I wish that era would come back. Like jump as high as you can, try and jump higher than your buddy, all those things. Right. So So you goozled me, but then you kind of shaken me and you said, kick me in the knee. I kicked you in the knee. And I'm thinking, all right, I have no clue. We're in uncharted territory here, but you still kind of half got me.

1:25:16And he said, dropkick me. I do a dropkick. I'm thinking, oh, all right, great. I dropkick you. And you took this big bump. You took this big bump. And I thought, 21 years old, no clue. I don't even know where to get my gear from at this point. I don't even know how I got called up. I know I got called up. I was Dusty's son, and they thought, oh, he's ready long before I was ready to go. But I'm so glad I got that experience because nothing could have prepared me for anything like that. But the best part is you took this great bump, and in my mind, I'm thinking, that's great. Undertaker's cool.

1:25:55He's the coolest guy. But also, what do you do? It's the objective is to throw another guy out. So I'm not going to pick you up. I just kind of go over to a corner and grab a leg. And I think you kind of came and got me. Like, hey, what's up, man? Like, hey, like, hey. And to finish, like, you can't just dropkick me and take a bite. And then nothing happened. But I had nothing else. And it ended up being this great moment. And there's a really great picture. And it's the garden. I got to be in there for a little bit and feel it. And this was the rumble where Michael Hayes was telling everybody to sell for everyone.

1:26:25Fast forward to years later when he's like, don't sell for everyone. Don't sell for everyone. What? Which is it? Freebird? But that was just such a great moment. Thank you, by the way. That was really special. I also, the art of calling it. Right. Never saw it. Just you and Hunter and the talking carny or hair in front of your mouth, whatever it was, magic was not revealed. Right. And I thought, that's just, I got so much out of it. The smallest thing. Yeah. There's times I would choose those kind of instances to do things that, even you. Yeah. You're like, oh, he's going to kill me now. He's going to, you know.

1:26:59I like to create little moments like that in those kind of matches that catch people off guard. Yeah. Right? And then what you do with that after the fact is kind of left up to you. But it's like people are looking around like, what the? Yeah. What just happened there? Yeah. Right? And sometimes it helps. Sometimes it doesn't. It's worth taking the shot. It's worth taking the shot sometimes. It's not going to hurt me. Yeah. Right? But what it potentially could do for you or whoever I'm doing that kind of stuff with, it could potentially turn it into something really good. Cheers to that. Cheers.

1:27:35For sure. Thank you. Cheers. As we wrap up this wonderful speakeasy busy signal in Austin, Texas, I have to ask you, we ask everybody who comes on the pod, Wheatley American Vodka and myself, we like to consider ourselves the American Dream Team. And I like to ask everyone, who is their dream team? And I always say it can be zombie apocalypse. It can be Survivor Series. It can be a man and his dog. It's your number of people or objects or animals. It's who's coming with you. Who's coming with me? Yeah. And how many do I need? Four? Four is a safe spot. Four is a safe spot? Four is a safe spot, yeah.

1:28:20Hmm. My dream team. I'm going to have to start with my brother.

1:28:30Kane has got my back on that. So, hmm. My dream team. I'm going to take Sean with me. Oh, wow. All right.

1:28:46Kurt Angle. Okay. So no one's going to beat this team at all. Mm-mm. Yeah. Already. We're talking like we're talking a wrestling match. It's a dream team, right? Are we talking like going into a bar fight or are we talking about a wrestling match? I think in both settings, this kind of is working because of the fact that you have Kurt. Well, Kurt helps. Yeah. Kurt's helping a lot. We got Sean to get us into the fight. Yep. And we got Kurt to get you out. Kurt and Payne to get us out. Yep. I need one more. Yeah. Andre. Well, that's the forever five-on-five champ for perpetuity. Yeah, we're not doing too many jobs.

1:29:27No, I don't think you're doing any. No, no. I tried to, back in the day, my dad would have me come up with war games teams in the car. He'd be like, what's your team? And he'd always be like, yeah, it's not good. It's not good. And I finally was like, what's the problem with this team? He goes, you got to pick someone who can lose. And I thought, oh, oh, all right. All right, we'll put him in there. Yeah, because I was just picking every awesome top talent. See, that's next level thinking, though. He's thinking as the booker. You've got to be able to beat somebody here. But I feel like those old war games, it was so clearly J.J.

1:30:00Dillon or Paul Ellerin. It was almost like you isolated. Right. Don't get near Paul a little bit. He's holding the zone, but don't get near J.J. There's a whole other psychology to it. Once they do, same with Bobby Heenan in a lot of those settings, right? Here at Busy Signal, I'm going to show you this Wheatley vodka jingle, and I'm going to ask you to change one of the words to it. Here you go.

1:30:36Wheatley, so good, I drink it neatly. If you could take the word neatly and replace it with anything, what would you do? Wheatley, so good I drink it. Nightly. Nightly? That's perfect. Ladies and gentlemen, Paul Famer on what do you want to talk about? And please catch part two as I am coming to your podcast. Yeah. It's happening. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, The Undertaker.