Charlie Gearside: What to do with $1.6 billion

26:59Yeah. It must be extremely validating for the messages that you're sending out to the market that people are actually like, Hey, I'm thinking about this. And it's interesting reading the comments that you get back. Like what are you learning from, because you've chosen YouTube as a particular medium with very clear intent. First of all, talk to me about why YouTube, why that's the place to be and what it's telling you from an engagement standpoint. Well, I used to write a blog years and years ago, and I wanted to get back into writing but I just think I mean sub-sacs are having a moment but in tech circles and I was like what so many people are just consuming video you know I'm not a huge TikTok or Instagram reels guy so then I was like you know what I really like YouTube um I can do my writing and then essentially turn to a camera and deliver it deliver that idea and so I sort of just started there knowing that it was going to be like the first video is going to be super uncomfortable and there was a lot of like phobias to get over.

27:55Yeah. Same more because I mean like the irony is like you, you had this sort of career of like de-stigmatization and like, you know, you would have chosen loads of models and design loads of ads to have people be in the hot seat of like the awkward thing. And now it's you. Yeah. What, what was that like? Yeah. That was the scariest thing I've done in a while. It's like, you can hide behind a brand. Yeah. But when it's you, you sort of. You are the brand. You are the brand and you, and you sort of I've taken a video down that sort of I completely misread the room um can you say more about that yeah it was a video about like essentially how sort of safety culture not the not the company um but a culture of safety obsession is sort of strangling it's like the opposite side of the coin to risk so in a country that doesn't value risk as much uh safety gets sort of lent upon and it really sort of like slows down.

28:53We're talking like OH &S. Yeah, OH &S is a good example. So like, you know, the one that people like to complain about is like why they're like six lollipop ladies on someone filling a hole on the street. And to some extent, that is costing Australia. My video was about that, but the early viewers took it as like, oh, this guy is a white collar that like doesn't understand the real risks of sight. And to some extent, that is true. Like I did undervalue that and did need to do a better job there. Using yourself as the brand and like you are YouTube, like you've chosen this medium that puts you front and center.

29:32Like you are the delivery agent of at times very provocative ideas. It's now more than ever. I mean, you talked about your identity of being a founder. Like you were you to so many people for so long. Now you are you owning your ideas in a really like uncompromising kind of way. I'd love like, yeah, your inside scoop on learning, learning about how to do that authentically and how you found your voice, what editorial decisions you are using about the sort of Charlie Gisside on YouTube, which presumably isn't the entirety of Charlie Gisside, right? No, no. But I'm getting more comfortable with the idea that like, like I'm trying to be myself.

30:13And in a lot of ways, it's very liberating. to align your sort of things that you post from your person. And I find it interesting that like in the future when there's so much like AI content and there's, you know, it's like the humanity of content is actually going to be super important, a moat as it were. And so like being yourself with all the positives and negatives that brings, all the warts and all is kind of appealing. and important. Yeah, absolutely. So, I do want to make sure we give some space to the big ideas. We talked a little bit about property. You've taken issue with the role of certain institutions, in particular universities in Australia.

30:57And we can talk a bit about that, but I suspect many of our listeners are also watchers of your channel. So, I'm actually interested in how you have arrived at this meta vision around what Australia could be and where you want to take it because the sort of former policy official in me is like, so many of the ideas you care about lie in the hands of people who do think about the big picture all day, every day. They are policymakers. They are politicians. You're a very deft communicator. Like, why not just go into politics, Charlie? Look, I personally think that it would be wasted energy right now.

31:36For things to change, I think the culture has to change. Our politicians have pretty consistently shown that they don't have much of a vision for the future and they're sort of willing to listen to read the tea leaves listen to the what's in the news what's in the media and sort of go wherever the wind blows and so i think my energy is better spent in that sort of media conversation how can we change the culture shift the overton window as people are talking about i mean the policy people were already doing amazing work, right, and thinking about this to an amazing level of detail. I'm not going to be good at that.

32:17But if I can help in some way, whatever that is, shift the culture and the conversation to a world where people are actually excited about building things and excited about the prosperity on the other side of building things, then I think all of a sudden the politicians will be like, oh, shit, we actually need to talk about this. You've given them space to do so because it's safer to do so. Yeah, it's safer to do so, which is sad. Well, I mean, one of the other provocative ideas you put out there is that we should be paying our politicians, our senior politicians, a million bucks a year. Say more about why you think that's going to make the difference.

32:55It's a story that always pops up, right? Which is like, why did this politician have this Commonwealth car? And why'd they get this bottle of wine? It's like, the scary part is that they don't get paid very much. we don't attract the best talent it's a hard job it's it's such a hard job the people that have the actual executive function to do well in these positions so i'm talking like the ceos of macquarie bank or you know a head coach of a of a footy team or something like that we're not getting access to those talent because there's no status in being a politician which is fine that's kind of an australian thing but there's literally like no financial reason to do it do you think it's even financial, like surely it's also got to do with the outside scrutiny on you as a person, your family, your choices.

33:44Like there's a pretty narrow window we give for conduct. Now, of course, there's terrible conduct that takes place in politics and everyone rightly should get up in arms about that, but it doesn't really give space for the average human with the foibles and, you know, weaknesses that we all have because you're under the public eye the whole time in a negative media landscape. Very true. But I think everyone has a price. And so if you were paying a million dollars a year, I think a lot of people would cop that. Phew. That scrutiny. Because they wouldn't be products of the party system. They wouldn't be super scared about losing something that they've spent 30 years climbing up the greasy pole.

34:28If you pay them heaps, there's no risk that they're going to go to like some gambling lobby or, you know, a big bank and sit on the board after because like they've made their money. There's no soft corruption. So anyway, I'm passionate about that idea. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like it. I mean, it does feel to me then like I'm interested in, you've got the YouTube channel, you're speaking predominantly to young people, even if your messages are also resonating with others. Where else are you taking these big grand ambitions because they can't just live with that universe. I think you've got your finger in a couple of other pies on this concept of Australia being and thinking of itself as bigger and better and more ambitious.

35:09It's a sort of a media business I'm working on, but a really exciting sort of project that has emerged with some other volunteers who care a lot about these things is Build Australia. So buildaustralia.com is worth checking out. It's designed to be a place where people can pitch ideas, like concrete ideas about what the future of Australia is, whether they're builders, you know, they could be filmmakers, they could be startup people, manufacturing, et cetera. I'm really excited by that because I don't know if you've been watching, but you followed much of the fuel crisis. And there's like dashboards emerging all over of like literally like raw data for Australia's, you know, where we're going to get our fuel from.

35:59And it's those kind of tools and like the way that we make things transparent that I think that's the future and sort of build Australia's where we're going to house a bunch of that stuff. Do you think, what role do you see for emerging technologies actually in making that possible, right? So we've got like concepts of like deliberative democracy and participative democracy, which sort of like tries to stop the like radical intermediation of like here's a person on the street who had who cares about a thing and it takes like it goes through some horrible machine that manipulates that message before it gets to a person who might listen to it and think this should change the way I think about it like the idea of collapsing all of that it has always been exciting to people but technology makes possible the distribution obviously to speak directly to people and have those voices be heard, but also maybe to hoover up data that would otherwise have been impossible to see or speak to.

36:54I'd love to hear your take on that. Yeah. No, I've been thinking about how the plumbing is broken in Australia to some extent. So by that, I mean the way we measure things. I mean, it's very startup-y, but we've got a situation that if I think of Labor, liberals and One Nation is like three sort of product teams in a company. They can't even agree on the metrics in the dashboard. So you see it in like how we measure inflation, how we measure productivity. Immigration is a big one. Everyone's just talking past each other saying, it's actually coming down. And then the others are going, no, it's actually going up.

37:34So like how is a product team meant to ship any features if they are, which we cannot agree on the numbers? Well, an interesting thing to pick you up on that is that I was recently hearing about is the head of the ABS, David Gruen, has made a bit of a name for himself by making possible a lot more data sets than were previously made possible, which sounds all very wonky and Canberra-like, but actually that's allowed a lot of other people to tap in, build APIs into that data and do new and interesting things with it. And it always sounded like sort of this concept of open data, like lived and died in policy circles, but now maybe with AI, there's a possibility of taking public data that has trust and legitimacy behind it because they spend the time collecting it in the right kind of way, but presenting it back in a way that has a different kind of conversational impact.

38:22Yeah. So if it's in policy, how do we get it the next level up? So like, how does the politician, instead of like some like waffly piece to camera, screenshot the dashboard and share that on their Instagram? Yep. And my gut is that they don't have the level of, it doesn't allow them to bend the narrative. What would? Well, I think if we do enough of it, I think one politician will come along and go, hey, this is actually going to work so much better if I just screenshot a dashboard, show the graph. But the problem is that no one actually agrees on the underlying numbers. So they'll just say, you've measured that wrong.

39:01It's like nuclear, right? It's like there's no actual deep discussion about nuclear because one side says that it's so expensive and shuts the conversation down. And then the other side, the libs aren't clever enough to go, well, let me come back with this other metric, right? And I think it's, yeah, it's a problem. Well, it's a bit circular because, you know, they would argue, I'm sure, that there's no mechanism for having a sophisticated, nuanced conversation about any of these topics, right? Like even if you trust that the Australian public is capable and interested to have a meaningful conversation about most topics and acknowledge that most things are grey.

39:39So you've got to take judgment. It's not like a straightforward yes, no. You know, it comes back a bit to, and you alluded to this earlier, like actually all of this ladders up for you. Like Build Australia, your YouTube channel, all of this ladders up to a media product or a media company. And you've talked about shifting the Overton window. So you've talked about changing the conversation. Like talk more about where you're going with this ambition around media as presumably your idea is that's the mechanism for making possible a conversation that hasn't been happening well so far. Yeah. And to be clear, there's a media business in there, but I like the YouTube and the Build Australia family.

40:21Like Build Australia is literally a not-for-profit. but the YouTube is not-for-profit, not without intent. Did you want to monetize it? Like, are you, like, at what point did you decide, you know what, that's not the goal here? Yeah, it's like, if you're doing an Australian-focused channel and I'm sort of coming up to my first year of, like, my first year anniversary, we're, thank you, but we're not doing the numbers that, like, would make this viable. I can see a world where we cover costs, but I don't think you get into this game unless you want to become a course bro. And you don't want to do that?

40:55No. Because your teacher style ones work quite well. They resonate. Yeah. But it's like, I mean, this is part of the problem I have with the universities is like, why pay for knowledge that's like free on the internet? You're shooting yourself in the foot there. I know. I mean, it'd be funny if one day I have to like time, you know, things get tough and I have to do a course. Talk more about the sort of media play, the broader media play. Well, I mean, I can't sort of like, I don't really, I'm not ready to talk about the sort of business side of things. And I think the YouTube thing is like, I'm going to do it as long as I'm like, feel like I'm helping people.

41:31And that's exciting me, you know, get Australia back in a better direction. And, and yeah, I've got grand designs, but I'm in the exploratory phase. What surprised you there? Like, did you, I assume you sort of started out, was it as explicit as like, here are 10 messages. I want to see if they land and you're like systematically testing them. Like, what's the process, what's the creative process you're using for deciding, like, I'm going to do one, you know, bluey. Yeah. Well, I suppose it's like, what are people you ask yourself? It's similar to like creating an ad. It's like, what are people interested in?

42:09And then sort of, it's like a Venn diagram. It's like, what are people interested in? What are the, what are the things that you want to make? Cause you find them interesting or sort of creatively rewarding. And I didn't know what's like what people are interested in at the start. So I'll just try a bunch of different things. Yeah. Have you ever gotten into hot water with some of the things? Like you mentioned one of them you've taken down. Any others where you've like excited the attention of people? There's been a few. Funny, I get called like either woke or like alt-right. So like it sort of oscillates.

42:44By some measure, that means you're doing things well. Maybe. The one that was funny was I suggested that in that Australia rebranding video, I suggested that we change the national sports covers from green and gold to car key. That ended up being the top story on news.com.au. God knows why, but I mean, like, kind of illustrates my point about the media. I enjoyed that suggestion, but I feel like of all the 50 things you were suggesting for the rebrand, including that we invade New Zealand, I'm surprised that that was the one that they thought was worth reporting on. Yeah, the car came one was interesting.

43:15It's like, it just got people fired up. And I was like, oh, this is kind of funny, like Steve Irwin, you know, like how iconic, that kind of thing. And then all the people were just like dragging shit on me and they're like, who the fuck is this guy? So I was like, you know what? You got to take your licks sometimes. Good for you. You've got to have a strong stomach in the line of work that you do. It gets easier, yeah. Do you pay attention to the comments? Is that one way it gets easier? You have to, but I'm getting better at like which ones I pay attention to. It's like in a startup, if you cover your ears and make it so that no bad news gets to you, you have a very ineffective organization.

43:54Good luck. You can't fix things. So, you know, I'm getting a lot of feedback and trying to take it on board. So I want to come back to you and what makes you tick. Like, obviously, impatience is a part of who you are. It's how you've made decisions in the past. Like famously, you dropped out of your second degree two subjects from finishing because you could see that it wasn't going to make a difference to you whether you'd like officially got the piece of paper or not. That's a level of like impatience, willingness to move to the next thing, take a risk that most people don't have within them.

44:29And now you're in this interesting, you know, post-Uke world where the world's your oyster. You can do whatever you want. Like freedom is the thing that's presumably quite clear to you in your life. What does a day look like? You know, have you chosen the YouTube thing to give you something that exists in the week by week to kind of occupy the part of your brain that's used to being very metric oriented? Yeah. I mean, it started out as, as sort of something to, to get me busy and doing stuff again. And it sort of just compounded from there to the point where I'm like, yeah, okay, media is the thesis.

45:03yeah I don't have any problems sort of on what to work on I mean we now have a we're working out of a studio we're trying to shoot every week um working on my other business as sort of CEO and I've got colleagues there now as well so the days are full but when you find the thing that you're that you really love doing it it's the cliche but it doesn't feel like work so I mean that's where it's at at the moment and trying to do all that. And then obviously like be a good dad is, and whatever the definition of that is, is, um, I'm still working that out. When you figure it out, can you let me know?

45:43Yeah, maybe, maybe I won't. What I'm doing right now is kind of funny as I'm working like tradey hours. So I'm like getting up early, working, coming home, and then like tools down kind of thing. That's kind of working for me. You're enjoying it? Yeah. It's very like tactical thing, but it's working. Yeah. I think you have to ask my wife. Yeah. I'll call in a fact checker. I do want to just like, you're not going to tell me everything about your new media business. Fair enough. Maybe you could tell me who's inspiring you in the media space. Like, is there anyone globally doing the kind of thing that you find could be the answer to what you want to achieve here in Australia?

46:20There are a lot of content creators that inspire. I think I look at sort of someone like a Ben Thompson, the Stratechery sort of. For those in the audience that don't know his work, can you? Yeah. So he's like the sort of go-to sort of tech analyst from the US, very, very sharp product thinker and sort of economic writer. Awesome guy. I highly recommend that you sign up to his$150 a year subscription. And he kind of invented that like independent media newsletter model. So from like a product perspective and sort of around newsletters, that's kind of interesting. I think like the guys and girls innovating on that from a product perspective around media are the most interesting to me.

47:05Which format is the kind of key innovation of recent times? It's both the message and who you're gearing toward, but like why it's now all in video format, why we're in video format right now, you know? Yeah. I mean, a lot of that value has been captured by the Googles. the Facebooks, the TikToks, for better or for worse. But the, I think, independent written journalism is really exciting, particularly newsletters and formats that aren't owned but based on internet protocols that no one owns is really interesting. But actually play into that a little bit more because Uke's great success was basically distribution arbitrage, it seemed to me, right?

47:56Like it was always getting six months ahead of where it was expensive to see eyeballs and always kind of finding eyeballs where it was cheap to do so. And so you kind of like danced around various parts of social media as ways of kind of using these different distribution channels and kind of getting ahead of competitors and kind of getting lower cost per click, basically. So is your ambition actually that we jettison, you're going to like sidestep the infrastructure of existing distribution to do something very, very different? Is that your call? I wouldn't sidestep it. I think these social media companies, these big tech media companies are going to be here to stay for better or for worse.

48:47But there's, I think if you, if you learn how to play their game, um, there, there are room for emergent platforms. That's all I'll hint at. Oh, okay. You've piqued our interest. Um, okay. So moving on to the kind of next step for, for you, I want to know, like, what's a topic that you haven't yet covered on your channel that, uh, we might be able to expect or what's something you haven't touched? Cause you've got fear around touching that as a topic. Yeah. I mean, we've been talking about this a little bit. The one that sort of makes me the most scared is talking about education in Australia.

49:25You didn't seem scared taking down the Australian university sector. Yeah, well, I think tertiary education is different, but for me, it's around primary and secondary around private schools and public schools. Yeah. So obviously this is a funny one because I now have the means to afford to send my kids to a private school. I went to a public school. I know that some of the best teachers are leaving public schools. I know that public schools are having to cancel trips to Bathurst and Canberra because they can't afford it or the teachers are struggling to organise it. and so it's this very real thing of like hey I want to send my kids to a public school because this is like everyone should be educated to a high standard but then when it's your kids all of a sudden it's like would I just like be selfish not saying it's selfish but it's like would I just go like I'm not taking the risk and I mean I've seen public schools first hand right albeit like Good ones.

50:32I mean, relatively good ones. Shout out Cliny Hearts High. But I don't know how to tackle that topic, really. Why not? Do you find it actually difficult from a moral standpoint or difficult because you think, like, what is it? I think the stats are now like 38 % or something of kids go to a private high school in Australia. We have, in the OECD, I think the most privatised education system, or it's certainly always been in the top five? Like, is it that you think you're just going to get loads and loads of people offside? Like, what's the awkwardness there? I think the awkwardness is like advocating for a position and then not taking that position.

51:11Ah, moral inconsistency. Yeah, so it's like, I mean, I agree with it. It's completely cooked. Australia, we pride ourselves on having like, we have an amazing public health system. We're not like America that's a private healthcare system. Hey, we've privatised education. and like we just ignore that and not only that it's getting worse and it's creating this like two-class society um so yeah I want to take it down and then at the same time I don't know what I'll do when Jo's ready for school it seems to me that the voice you are cultivating which is the Charlie I have known and and are speaking to now it's authentic it's like you know I'm speaking to you as if we were sitting together in a pub enjoying a beer together.

51:59Like you deliberately don't get things from the kind of policy wonkish sort of didactic standpoint. So there seems to be space for being honest about your own conundrum in that. But I guess what's different maybe is that your other content has a point of view and it sounds like you're wary of being too strict in a point of view at this stage. I think I'll get there. I just need a few or like weeks. Great. Great. Okay. So I do want to be mindful of people listening to this podcast who find your message about ambition for Australia as a function of ambition of young people, really inspiring. So maybe we could do it in two parts.

52:45Imagine I'm listening and I'm a 25 year old. I am like the next, you know, Charlie Gearside in the making perhaps, or I have some of the same characteristics or potential within me. What are the like three things you reckon I could be doing to kind of live the Charlie Gearside way, as it were? Let's start with that person. Three things. Yeah. Well, look, I would say, yeah, it's the practical stuff I think is, there's so much practical stuff. I think it's like, I hate to be the sort of self-help guy, but it's like the mindset is the is the i think the most interesting in three um i think the first thing is i the thing that i always think about is like you you're going to die one day remember that so like tomorrow is not promised because that that actually sort of leads into the next ones and reframes how you think about risk taking when none of it really matters and then i guess the second one is i guess is an ownership mentality which is comes through in a lot of the videos which is like make sure you own things make sure you own part of the company that you are working at make sure you are starting projects where you have skin in the game because it makes you think differently and there's a financial upside yeah yeah and then i think the last one and it's funny because it sort of like balances the first one which is like this idea the first one is nothing really matters this third one is like it's okay to take things seriously and in australia that's kind of rare we like we call those people try hard um but it's okay to be like earnest and like hey it's good to laugh at yourself but it's okay to be hey i really care about this thing i want to change this thing to be to take your work really seriously because at first like people will laugh at you and then after that people will want to work with you after that passes.

54:47So, yeah. Do you think as a founder you kind of learnt that, like having a vision for the future is there's a self-consciousness to that because you're telling people the world can be different in this way and I believe about making it different, but then you realise that's the thing that people are drawn to. Yeah. You have to convince so many people in a start-up. You have to convince Blackbird. and thankfully we did in the very first meeting. And then you have to convince your early hires, especially when you're paying less than market. So you have to truly believe something and you have to take it seriously.

55:28So now let's turn to a different kind of listener. Let's talk to somebody who might not be at that stage in their career. Maybe they've taken some of those same choices themselves and might be a founder. What about your vision for Australia? do you want them to hear? What is it about who they are to this more ambitious version of Australia and maybe also to the people adjacent to them who could change, who could support you in this cultural change? What do you want them to be doing differently? Yeah, I think those people are probably thinking about why they don't leave to SF as the hot thing in startups or why we don't go to London.

56:06I think it's like, to some extent, that's fine. You will probably come back because the lifestyle here is so good. But I would also ask them to consider a parallel universe of like, why not start to stay here? Why not be really proud of what Australia could be? Um, be proud about Australia's potential national identity. Um, so yeah, I would challenge that. A lot of people aren't proud of Australia. I mean, this, this is definitely - It's not very cool to be proud of Australia. No, it's kind of like, you know, in some circles it might be considered a little bit like Bogan, um, to be proud of Australia, you know, their mind goes to like the Southern Cross and like all that kind of stuff.

56:49But we should consider a world where we are proud of Australia and what it could be. And that, that's where, that's the thing worth, you know, building towards and maybe staying here to do so. Okay. Okay. So the third group I want you to get out, we talked young people, we've talked Albert and Brudder, which is founders and people who are like us, like you. What about the kind of listener who might be at a different stage in their career? Actually, maybe they manage a bunch of people. Maybe they have a huge mortgage that they feel somewhat crushed by, but that they haven't lost the spirit around both their own ambition and Australia's.

57:30What's your message for them. Yeah. I mean, arguably, you make a good point because arguably this group has the resources to make the biggest impact. Maybe there's a world in which there's a level of comfort with these people and understandably so they might've bought their house 20 years ago. They might be in a different phase of life. They might be in sort of management positions or at a stage where they're caring about their families or focusing on retirement. I think the question there is like, I mean, it's a legacy question is what kind of Australia do you want to pass down? And, you know, ultimately a cynic would say that humans do, they look after number one first.

58:15And I mean, there's, it's extremely cynical and oftentimes very true, but yeah, it's like if you have the resources and you are comfortable, how can you get out of the way to some extent and sort of pass goodwill down. Yeah, I think there's heaps of opportunity for those powerful people, but those generations, whether they're powerful or not, to aid that. Yep. So, one final question for you, Charlie. What's something you've changed your mind about? Yeah, I used to think that Australia should be more like America. I used to just be an easy thing to think. It's like, yeah, America's good at startups.

58:59Why don't we copy all that? And then you realize that like America's so good at startups because it's literally baked into their culture. It's like your strengths are also your weaknesses, right? And so America's strengths happen to be their weaknesses around social safety nets and that kind of uber free market economy. Um, and I think Australia has a very unique strain of sort of the Western democracy, at least, you know, modern Australia from the last couple of hundred years. And the more history books I read about Australia in the early days of sort of the emergence of this, you know, larrikin rebellious nature, um, it's actually very tightly linked to entrepreneurship.

59:43And like, you look around and you go, what do you mean? Australia's only been around for 250 years. Well, modern Australia. Sorry, put my foot in that one. But it's like, there's so much progress so quickly. It's quite amazing. It's like, we are a frontier success story. And if you're wondering why Australia is sort of struggling and why we're so comfortable, you know, these days, comfortable in a derogatory sense, I think we can take heart from the idea that like, it wasn't always this way. And so I'm not saying Australia should be in America. I now believe that Australia should be, get itself in shape and be old Australia.

1:00:25Interesting. Yeah. Love it. Not in a super nostalgic way, but in a like, let's bring - Take the best of what that was. Yeah. Brilliant. You know, imagine they do that. Imagine like, and it's very timely, right? We're talking, there's a lot of discussion about tax reform in the property space right at the moment in Australia. So maybe we'll get there. Maybe the Overton window is big enough to allow that and the generations that stand to lose a little in that change actually acknowledge, you know, what it's worth doing for the future of Australia. There's also a role that they play as parents, maybe uncles and aunts, like they may have mentees who are the 25-year-old versions.

1:01:08you know what messages and stories should they be telling if they really believe there's a future that looks different for australia what's their role in changing that landscape and that conversation it's actually a really good point because we need to remember that the young people are entering a a world that looks very different to that of what life was like 20 30 years ago sort of pre-internet right and so as parents as bosses as as mentors i think it's being encouraging being open to things like oh i'm not going to university i'm gonna go and get a trade um encouraging things that seem risky maybe because they are different to what has traditionally been done, I think that's going to become super important and valuable because, yeah, this is like a pretty tumultuous time in history, right?

1:02:14And so being a little bit more risk on, I think that's what, yeah, I mean, it gets harder as you get older, but I definitely think it has huge downstream effects. I mean the other way of thinking about it is it's actually risky to apply last year's or last decade's measures of how you get from A to B in a world that doesn't look anything like that right? Yeah That's actually more risky not to adapt to this new set of circumstances that young people like both opportunities and challenges that they face Yeah people underestimate the risk of doing nothing Thanks Charlie Kisai Thank you

1:03:00Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Wild Hearts. If you want to learn more from other ambitious people building, designing and creating the world that we all want to live in, then please hit the subscribe and follow button. This podcast is a labour of love from the Blackbird team and Day One. The show is produced by Camilla Herring from Blackbird. Our marketing genius is Laura Cofford. And our editors are from Day One. Andy Jones Sanjay Chabaria and Georgia Catalan thank you all so much for listening and I'll see you all next week