How Anna Guerrero is changing the way we cook

27:20I mean, it was the ultimate test, really, you have to completely earn your stripes, you know, from scratch, I was working in a job, I had very little experience in a language that I had very basic proficiency in, I didn't have a network, which I've realized since was is one of the most valuable things that you can have in any kind of life circumstance. And what that brought up was a lot of kind of indecision and at times regret of like, why did I do this? Like, you know, what was there an alternative? Was there an easier way to figure out what I wanted to do next? But also what it did give me was this, I guess, very kind of clear mirror to answer some of those questions of what do I want to do?

28:04What are my skills? How can I add the most value? And, you know, what could the next chapter look like? So, you know, it can be, I think it can be really easy to look at everyone's highlight reels, whether that's on LinkedIn or Instagram or whatever it is, but, you know, behind those decisions and especially behind the decision of not knowing what's next is a lot of low points, a lot of kind of, you know, loneliness, doubt, and also in a way you kind of, you have this really fun backlog of feelings to think about, which you kind of put on pause when you're in a really kind of high growth, chaotic job as well.

28:42So, yeah, it was huge, but it did kind of feel like the dots kept connecting. You know, I talked about that example of I definitely didn't go over there with the plan to work in a restaurant. And after like a few months of being there, I was working in a restaurant, which was just crazy to think about. And I also think it's such a good reminder that you really can't plan everything. I used to really be an obsessive planner. I was like the kind of student that would overstudy on everything and try and kind of control every outcome. But, you know, I think it's really important to not underestimate the ability to just point yourself in a direction and trust that dots will connect and you'll kind of figure out your path as you go.

29:25I love that. And maybe I want to touch on what you said where, you know, you kind of made the decision and something that really stood out was not having a network. Yeah. And I want to talk about the importance of relationships. It's something that comes up for me a lot. I tend to say relationships rule the world because I found that to be true in so many different ways, personally and professionally, and the importance of that, especially as you navigate a career change, you navigate building a thing from nothing, from an idea, much like you have. Talk a little bit about your pit crew in that journey.

30:00So, like, who did you surround yourself with that made you feel enabled, made you feel empowered to do this really hard thing, arguably very hard thing? Yeah, it's such a good question. And, you know, of course, I was kind of keeping in touch with friends and family back home. But in that day to day, you know, no one, almost no one knew like what Canva was, because it was a totally different industry. A lot of people were like, where is Australia? Again, actually, it was really like going back to basics with who I was as this random person. But I think something that did surprise me was how quickly I built a network when I was there.

30:39So, you know, in culinary school, the program that I was doing was an international program. So there was people from different countries, which was really great, because we could, we were all kind of in the same boat. So we connected and it's such an immersive experience that, yeah, we would cook all day and then we would hang out at night and we would explore the town. And I made some amazing friends, if you guys are listening, shout out. and yeah I guess that continued as well at the restaurant so you know the experience at the restaurant was even more intense because I was living with everyone that I was working with which is kind of the setup often at Michelin restaurants and so we were living together working together cooking together you know before and after work and I think I remember this moment when I think it was about a week and a half in, it was my birthday.

31:29And I was, you know, I remember waking up being like, no, like, where am I? What am I doing? But, you know, it had only been a couple of weeks and just really connected with everyone there. And, you know, we went out for pizza and as Italians do. And yeah, I just remember having a really great night and having this feeling like, oh, well, these could be, you know, friends for the rest of my life. And so I think it's important to remember as well that, you know, your network does ebb and flow over time. And it's really important to think about what you bring to that and being really, you know, open to people and experiences.

32:06And I think probably the thing that's helped me the most in that experience, but other times in my career as well, is just being curious about people. I love hearing people's stories and learning about them. And like, I kind of just get obsessed with people quite quickly. And, you know, I was fascinated by these people that were working in this restaurant and had come from all these different regions. And so, yeah, I think the power of kind of asking questions, staying curious and realising that actually people are really open to help you and everyone's on a journey and almost everyone that you think is intimidating and, you know, professional and scary and shiny is actually just a really funny, great person that worries about things and, you know, has hopes and dreams and all of those big things.

32:56So connecting with people just as people and at a human level will not go out of fashion. And I think we'll stay with you throughout your life and career. Coming back to the topic of people, but with clove, I liked something you said just then, which was, you know, we cooked, we slept, we spent days and nights together. You were truly like in the trenches in this restaurant situation. But I feel like the analogy is natural there with a startup. And when you're building something from the pre-seed, seed stages, you truly are in the trenches together and you're figuring this out together. Talk a little bit about how you're thinking about, I guess, one, magnetizing the type of people that you want in the trenches with you.

33:38and two, as that builds out, how you start to set the cultural tone at Clove internally, like the internal dynamics that are important to you off the back of those experiences you've had. Yeah, absolutely. What I've really kind of come to think about a lot more is that you can't underestimate the ability of leading by example. So the best way to set the tone in a smaller company when you're not always leaning on super clearly defined values and principles and all of this structure is to kind of work in a way that you that reflects the kind of people that you want to work with um and so you know at clove it is such a creative product it's there's so much in terms of um you know such an intersection between art and science that i think really you know everyone that builds a product is so creative so smart and really has that kind of owner mentality and that kind of full stack, I guess, way of thinking about things.

34:36So yeah, leading by example. And I think also not being afraid to course correct. You know, every company, every product, every stage of a business is so different. And I don't think there's a right or wrong just because you don't fit into, you know, a mold at one particular time. It doesn't mean that it, you know, you don't have great skills and it's not a fit. So I think being really kind of clear about what kind of company that you know you do want to have how you want to work the skills that you need and really kind of steering and bringing people along that journey and um yeah and also being kind of aware that that the kind of people that fit on that journey will change over time which was a lesson that I learned um at Canva time and time again and that is kind of part of growth and evolution.

35:22Maybe it's a quick fire question off the back of that, what is your instinct on the highest signal elements of an individual that would be a great fit for Clove specifically? Because there is, like you said, there's the uniqueness of it is incredibly creative, also very product centric, has a few stakeholders in the business on both sides of the marketplace. And so it is a unique environment and it is a unique type of business. Maybe, yeah, what comes to mind when I, when I ask sort of the top three signals in a person that you would, you know, auto hire on the spot? Yeah, there's actually two that really come to mind as you were speaking.

36:02So one is incredibly strong initiative and the second is low ego. So to talk a little bit about those two, you know, there are a million things that you need to do in a startup and you cannot delegate every task or kind of, you know, you can't wait for, wait to be told what needs to be done. So people that can think critically about the problem and come up with solutions or ideas themselves is so helpful to push ideas forward and to kind of drive impact towards users. And then the second piece in terms of ego is there is just so much learning in a startup that you really can't get attached to an idea or a project.

36:42And you need to be very willing to always do what's best for the business and not get attached to something that, you know, might not be in your skill set. Like you can't steer a project towards something just because you're good at it. You need to be like, actually, we need to do this thing and we don't have the right person. What do we do? And so always kind of, you know, being open to learning can be a great way to kind of bridge that gap and being quick and curious and a fast learner is awesome. But yeah, I think ultimately knowing that the mission of the company is something that you're very connected to and you're willing to kind of pivot and learn and kind of be a key part of driving that forward along the way is something that we really look for.

37:22So you've made a lot of big decisions over the last few years. Talk a little bit about how your mentality has shifted through each of those decisions and where it stands today as you build Clove, as you bring this idea to life. Yeah, so I think one thing that's been a constant thought throughout the journey has been, you know, when I kind of made that big decision to leave, how terrified I was of the unknown. unknown and really it's like hard things some in some ways not that hard but it's not knowing what to do that can be the most terrifying feeling and so you know we're building clove it's amazing to see it in the hands of users and to be at this phase of getting it out there but at the same time there are still so many unknowns and so I think in some ways the biggest learning has been to settle into that feeling and not let it stop you from taking action like a lot of people do approach me now and, you know, ask that question of like, I don't know what to do next.

38:24Like, what should I do? And my advice is always just keep doing things until you figure it out. Don't just sit in fear because there's nothing worse than I guess that feeling. And if you just keep doing things and point yourself in the direction that, you know, you think is ultimately right for you, something will fall into place. Talk a little bit about the ambition you have for the company and what it looks like in, say, five years' time to be really that go-to hub that we all think about when we go to cook? Yeah, absolutely. Cooking is this funny space where it's so noisy. There's so many different apps that do so many different things, but at the same time, there is this huge gap when it comes to one winning consumer product, when you think of, what am I going to have for dinner?

39:09Where do I go? And one of the reasons is that all of these different apps and products, they solve a really specific part of the cooking process. And what we're trying to do with Clove is really integrate all of them into one kind of clear process that will help you throughout that whole weekly cycle of cooking from inspiration to, you know, action and all of the kind of, I guess, just admin that comes with the process of cooking. And so in terms of ambition in five years, so, you know, we have this goal of a billion recipes being cooked through the platform. And I'd very much like to see that happen.

39:45You know, we're starting off clove in English speaking markets. There's a huge global opportunity. Cooking is so universal, as you've said. And so really, when someone thinks, what should I cook? Or I have, you know, an empty fridge or a full fridge, I need to know what to do. We want them to clove it, I guess. I love that. So on.

40:08That was too lame. It just came out. I love it. I love it. We should definitely clove it. That's going to be the new tagline, clearly, at least between you and me. They say you should be building a product that solves a problem you have. Talk a little bit about your experience using clove and what has delighted you in that. Yeah. So there's been two experiences that have really transformed for me. So one, I fit into that category of people that because I like cooking, it's always been my job. And sometimes that's great, but sometimes I just want to get home from work and I want there to be dinner on the table.

40:48And for the first time, actually, that has started happening, which I'm very excited about. So I'm building Clove with my co-founder, Sam. And, you know, for someone that never learned to cook and was very daunted by the whole experience now with Clove, he feels like the recipes are simple, they're easy to understand, and he can approach them. The second piece that's really transformed is because cooking is such a hobby for me, I'm always buying cookbooks and saving recipes on Instagram. It's my whole kind of discover feed. But then I never go back to them, and I never do anything with them. And so for the first time, just one simple click to go send to clove, it's suddenly part of my backlog.

41:30And then the next minute, it's being recommended by this smart plan. And I'm actually cooking more and cooking a bigger range of things. I am starting to branch out from pasta, which is good news for everyone in my household. Can you really get enough pasta? Do you cap out at some point? I used to ask me a year ago and I would have given you a different answer, but no, it's such a delight to try a new cuisine. And when we have a new creator on the platform, I always try and cook from their work. And I'm just learning so much and falling in love with so many different cuisines and topics. And yeah, just becoming really a more confident cook, which is a lifelong journey.

42:13And, you know, even as someone that's been around, I have such a long way to go. And it's fun working on it every week. Sounds like Sam is also becoming a confident cook, which is awesome. Shout out, Sam. I tell you, coming home to that iPad in the kitchen, it's just a joy.

42:32Hey, listeners, quick note before we jump back in. This next bit is a follow-up I recorded with Anna a couple of weeks after our original chat. The Clove beta had just launched, and I wanted to check back in now that thousands of people had started using it. We talked about what that first wave of feedback has been like, how people are using, well, my favorite feature, recipe import, and what it's been like for Anna and Sam, her technical co-founder, Behind the Scenes. Here's that conversation.

43:05So, Anna, it's been a couple of weeks since we recorded and you've been hearing from thousands of beta users since then. How's the first wave of feedback been? Yeah, it's always this crazy feeling when you put something out into the world and you've been working on it for what feels like forever and people are seeing it for the first time, which can be very daunting, But we've had such an incredible reception from our early home cooks who are cooking in a whole new way and also our creators who are seeing more people cook their recipes through clove as well. So, yeah, it's been it's been such a fun time and so rewarding for the whole team who's been putting so much thought and care into so many small details on the platform.

43:45And then, yeah, I guess one of the funnest parts of it as well is really seeing which features resonate and, you know, what you've built is really sticking and it gives you ideas for where to go from there. Talking of features that resonate, I love, and it honestly feels magical, your recipe import feature. Yes. Basically, you can pull in recipes from anywhere. I'm one of those people that is so guilty of saving hundreds of Instagram recipes, but not coming back to them in any meaningful way. Walk us through the recipe import feature and the traction you've been seeing. Yeah, so something we always wanted to achieve with Clove is really transforming that whole weekly cycle of cooking.

44:30So everything from finding recipes to making a plan, shopping them and cooking them. and you know the reality is is that recipes have been around for a lot longer than we have and so we know that we need to plug into the existing workflows that people have and that's really where recipe import comes in so the way that it works is that it allows anyone to take a recipe from almost any format whether it's something on social media like Instagram or TikTok even kind of a clipping from a magazine or a handwritten recipe. And in a few seconds, it gets imported and converted into our really simple and smart cooking format.

45:08And really what that means is that, you know, instead of it just being an idea and something you saved, but you never actually get around to it, you can have it top of mind, you can add ingredients to a shopping list instantly, add it to a plan. And what's been so exciting is to hear people say, I'm actually starting to cook the recipes that I've saved for so long. So yeah, so that's been really, really interesting to see how, you know, much love there has been for that particular feature. One of my favourite stats that we have so far is, you know, of users that are using import, on average, they're importing at least 10 recipes, which is just incredible.

45:47And, you know, I think if you can think back to, you know, you mentioned your personal Instagram recipes, and I have the same problem, you know, we're drowning in recipes really. So yeah, so it's been such a kind of great step forward. And, you know, we have made little decisions that have really helped to make sure that we've also built the feature in a very thoughtful way for creators. So, you know, once someone uploads a recipe into Clove, it's all attributed, it links back to the original source and we make sure that it's only ever available privately. So you can kind of organise these recipes yourselves, but you can also discover awesome recipes on Clove as well.

46:29As ever, creators are at the core of everything that Clove does, which leads me to think, well, you've had some great traction on the home cook side in the last couple of weeks. What have you observed on the creator side since launch? Yeah, so I guess what's exciting about these two, I guess, ideas coming together is that what this has validated is that people are really looking for a new and simpler way to cook their recipes. And so one way you can achieve that is by importing recipes into Clove. But of course, the other way is by just publishing them on Clove in the first place. And so we have grown and we're still growing, but an incredible early creative community.

47:11We have almost over a thousand recipes, over 40 creators and people that are, yeah, using our tools to equally publish recipes in a format that is really designed for cooking. And, you know, what we've heard from our early creators is a lot of excitement that, you know, they're getting more notifications than ever, too many in some cases, about who's, you know, saving their recipe, cooking it. The reward, I guess, of knowing that someone is following through and actually cooking is something we keep hearing, you know, unlike maybe putting something out on Instagram and you get the likes, but you don't really know what happens from there.

47:48So yeah, so I guess this feedback loop is starting to kind of emerge of, you know, creators are publishing, home cooks are discovering these recipes and really the magic will come together if we can keep that kind of flywheel going and keep both sides of our kind of product really closely engaged. Give us some examples of these creators that you've mentioned, maybe one or two that you're really excited about and a little bit on how you actually found them in the first place. Yeah, for sure. So, you know, 12 months ago, we did not have any creators on our platform and it was a very daunting place to start.

48:21And so, you know, in a lot of previous kind of tech marketplaces that I've built, they were very digital, very online. I would pick up the phone, send an email and we would kind of go from there. What I found with food, which seems really obvious in hindsight, is that a lot of people that love food and cooking are in the kitchen. They're hands on, they're offline. You can find them in lots of wild and wonderful places. So when we were starting, I really just found myself jumping in Ubers all around Sydney. You know, some of our first believers whose recipes have become incredibly popular, you know, one is Alex from Cornersmith.

48:59She had an incredibly loved cafe for several years and made the difficult decision to shut it down, but had this really loyal fan base. And so I approached her, walked into her cafe. thankfully she she met with me and we had lunch and spoke about you know what she was doing next where all that knowledge was going and she was really interested in the idea of clove and you know now she has recipes from her cookbooks that she's published on the weekend on clove and her audience is loving them you know someone else that comes to mind that's been with us right from the beginning um i've always loved going to cooking classes surprise surprise and someone that runs incredible cooking classes locally is Karima from Sunday Kitchen, which is an incredible mother-daughter duo who are not only just sharing knowledge about cooking, but sharing their culture and their unique history as well.

49:52So Karima has the most incredible Lebanese food. I've been totally converted. And, you know, ever since I tasted it and met her, and I think she came to cook for us for an early team lunch, we spoke about getting her recipes onto clove. And, you know, she's, she often kind of speaks to how simple the process is compared to other recipe publishing that, you know, she does. So yeah, it's really exciting to see people with growing communities be on clove and their communities start to get value from their recipes in a new way. And, you know, those are a couple of examples, but we really, you know, I mentioned we've got 40 people, they are really all incredible in their own way from nutritionists, bloggers, everyday cooks, you know, know, people that have run cafes, educators.

50:36So yeah, it's really, really quite an honour to be bringing together this, I guess, really kind of diverse community of people that love food. And really what they do have in common is this, is this kind of love of seeing their recipes cooked and wanting to share their knowledge. So that's been a very exciting time. And it is just the beginning as well. So, you know, working on the next phase of our creative program is one of our next big goals that we're really excited to share more about soon. Amazing and very cool to hear the diversity of the creator set that you're seeing. Well maybe give us a teaser of what you have in store for the creator program.

51:16Yeah I'm so excited so you know today it is free to set up an account on Clove. Anyone can publish recipes and we do curate and I guess handpick what gets featured on the platform. But it is this kind of, you know, thing people are doing to, I guess, just get their knowledge out there and see their recipes cooked. But next, we have plans to think about how we can also leverage our kind of tools and our platform to not only help creators to share recipes, but also to earn from their work that they've put so much love and care and time into. So yeah, we're We're working really closely at the moment with an early kind of group of creators to really tease out what this could look like.

51:59We want to solve the problem that creators do have today, the frustrations that they have. And, you know, we have learned all about this. We've got, you know, you've got people that have so much great knowledge. They're putting so much work into the recipes they're sharing. And often it can feel like there's just this need to create more content or they're not really kind of getting the recognition that they feel they deserve. So we're really wanting to kind of launch this next phase in collaboration with our early community. I'm so excited to share what that could look like. And what it will mean for Home Cooks, which I'm personally excited about, is that you could see more of your favourite creators on Clove as well, which is really great.

52:38So, you know, think of clove as a place where you can use it to organize recipes from all the wild and wonderful places that you get them from, but also a one-stop shop to discover new recipes that are really simple, really clear and really kind of perfect for home cooking. Amazing. Let's take a step back before we close out and just reflect personally, like talk about for you and Sam, your technical co-founder in these last couple of weeks. How's it been? Has it been for you both? How's it been for the team? Yeah, it's been so much fun getting it out there. And, you know, I mentioned before you have this feeling of you've been working on these details and when people see them for the first time, it almost feels like it's the first time that they're there.

53:22But there is so much hard work that's gone on behind the scenes. So our whole team has been working incredibly hard on so many little details that you can see in Clove all the way from the tech to the beautiful food and the content and the community. And so I guess we've kind of come at it from this angle of, yeah, like Clover is really a reflection of our team. We have great people across all of those different areas. And I guess in a lot of ways, it's also a reflection of Sam and I. So, you know, I'm someone that I've always loved cooking. I've kind of, I have a tech background, but really have a fire and kind of, you know, love for all of the kind of food side of what we're building.

54:05And Sam is very different. He was very intimidated by cooking when we first started. He's a very scientific person. He's a software engineer. And so he's brought such an incredibly, I guess, thoughtful and structured lens to the product, which I think has really come through in a lot of the early feedback we've gotten. in comments like this is the easiest to use cooking platform that I've seen or I've never seen recipes so clear and little things like making measurements dynamic, which seems like such a simple little engineering problem is something that makes such a big difference to home cooks.

54:43So, yeah, so I think we're feeling really, feeling super proud of what's out there. It is just the beginning. I think the other thing that you struggle with when you're building a company is you always know what's coming next and you're always like, oh, it's not ready. We can't get it out yet. But we have been really, really happy to kind of get early feedback and validation and are really excited about the next few months and what we have coming next. You said you're feeling proud as you should. No, truly, it's been so fun to check back in. It's clear that Clove is landing in a way that's exciting and it's real.

55:21So to end, to anyone on the fence about trying clove out, what would you say to them? I would say that you definitely don't have to love cooking to try clove. We've had such a huge range of people sharing feedback from, you know, people that have been cooking for years and have just, it's become almost boring and monotonous. And for the first time, they're finding it exciting and fun and stress-free. But also people that never thought that they could cook. Interestingly, a lot of people that have said things like, you know, I've always struggled with just attention in general. I have ADHD and cooking is such a written process and for the first time it's visual.

56:02So really what we're trying to do is create a platform where anyone feels like and anyone can cook. And yeah, I guess Sam always likes to say if he can do it, anyone can do it. So would encourage everyone to give it a go. We all need to cook and you all feel, you feel so great once you do. So yeah, we're looking forward to continue making it as easy as we possibly can. Great. Can't wait to come over for dinner. Thanks so much. Okay, cool. That's the latest from Clove and you can hear it in Anna's voice. It's real. It's out there and people are using it in ways that matter. Big thanks to Anna for making time to come back on.

56:47and if you're curious or sitting on the fence, Clove is live in the app and Play Stores right now. Give it a go. That's it for today's episode of Wild Hearts. A huge thank you to Anna for taking us inside the Clove story, past the recipes, past the hype and into what it really takes to build a company that wants to change how we cook at home. If you want to check out Clove, the beta app is now live in the app and Play Stores. Just search for Clove Kitchen. Go save a recipe, make a plan and maybe even fall back in love with your kitchen. And if you're a food creator, keep an eye out for their upcoming publishing tools.

57:24The space is about to heat up. As always, if you loved this episode, hit follow, leave us a review and share it with a friend who's juggling dinner plans or a startup idea. Thanks so much.