Jennie Rogerson: Work really hard and actually love it

21:06So how big is your team now Jenny? It's around 300. So my team includes the core people specialty of talent and growth and learning and total rewards and all those kind of good things. And then also includes Vibe, which is our workplace experience team and how people feel at Canva. It includes our operations team, which is what they would be known as in the market as chief of staffs, exec assistants, and then operations partners. And then also includes the Canva Foundation team. And so it's a pretty large team of incredibly varied skill sets and incredibly varied skills and personalities, which is fantastic when it all works together.

21:41And something that I am learning is more of that stepping away from the solo responsibility and more how do I bring out the best in my leads, in people, in the team, within people, and then more broadly the team at Canva. And so I think to the point of unlearning, the unlearning is doing doesn't just mean owning. Doing actually means working through your team to ensure that they are able to show up at the best and helping them behind the scenes. So the unlearning is just constantly learning, I think.

22:08Jennie Rogerson:Sounds tiring. Also very exciting. I think there's so much to learn and so many incredible people at Canva to learn from. One of the things that I'm curious about is how you think about motivation. It's clear to me that this is a thing that's like quite endemic to you as a person. Like you sort of read people. One of the things that came up from your team was just how well you read people, read the room. You care a lot about listening. So I'm interested in what you've taken away as Canva's grown in the time that you've been there. So you're five and a half thousand people odd now. Like what truly motivates the highest performers to come and stay at Canva?

22:44Jennie Rogerson:and maybe if you know take it the next level like if you were to flee a proverbial building and take just one thing away about how Canva operates in this way what would it be? I think it would always be so complex to narrow down what motivates 5 ,500 people to one thing and so I don't know that I could or should in fact but what I definitely hear from our team is a multitude of different motivations. Things like I really care about the company I'm working for doing good in the world. I choose Canva because I love the force for good value and I love the good that you're doing in the product or I love the value of what we're doing in pledge 1 % or the fact that our founders have given their equity to their foundation.

23:29The other thing is loving the product. I think people want to build a product. You know, when you say I work for Canva, someone says, oh, my niece loves Canva or oh, my brother's building this on Canva or I spend all of my time on Canva. That really is hugely motivating to build a product that so many people love. Yeah. I mean, there's a quarter of a billion users of Canva, right?

23:48Jennie Rogerson:It's not hard to find someone in your life that's like, hey, if you could just do this, that would be great. But also I think solving interesting challenges. Canva is an enormously impactful product and it has so many different surfaces. You have social media graphics, you have websites, you have forms, you have docs, you have whiteboards, you have video, you have all of these things. There are a multitude of challenges within that. And how do you make that all very simple? And how do you make sure that product really works? And so a lot of what we hear from our team is the interesting thing about working at Canva is that growth side of, I feel like I can really grow my skills at Canva.

24:21I can apply the skills that I've got towards incredible challenges. And by doing so, we'll learn other skills and we'll learn from incredible people. I don't think any one thing motivates any one person. And I think it's kind of this multitude of all of those things together on varying different degrees for different people, depending on what they're personally motivated by. But that's certainly what we hear from our team on what drives them most at Canva.

24:41Jennie Rogerson:So I'm actually interested. I mean, you're an ops person by background. You love how things work. What's maybe a system that you've built that you're really, really proud of? Maybe, you know, something that you think actually holds the sort of culture together. I think perhaps that's two questions in one, because I don't think what holds culture together is ever a system. I think it's the people. I don't think anyone, when you say, what do you love about the culture at Canva, I don't think they would ever say, oh, this system is brilliant. I think they would say the people around me really inspire me and support me and challenge me and all of those things.

25:17And so I think it really is the people when you're moving this fast and things are so complex, the people are what make the system. And also when you're moving this fast, I'm sure so many listeners are building systems the same as us. And then once you've built them and you're feeling really good about it, it's already out of date. It already doesn't work for some reason because the world's moved on or your business got more complex or you learned some other information that then the system changes. And so I think the culture at Canva is certainly in its people, not its systems.

25:48Jennie Rogerson:Is there something you think you do that people in your roles tend not to? Is there something you engage in? I mean, you obviously engage in reading 10 ,000 comments, which I'd hazard a guess a lot of other people in your role. Certainly in the world of LLMs, they're like, give me a summary of that. And I'd love that you read it. To be fair, I do also get the summary. I think it's just there's more nuance in reading the comments individually. Yeah, you pick up emotion when you read people's real words. And nuance, right? I think that's the important bit. Like it's great to have the summaries of anything, but it's much more important to have the nuance and then the conversation.

26:18Jennie Rogerson:So is there anything else that you think like, you know what, I take the time to do this myself that you reckon other people don't. And what does that give you? I spend a huge amount of my time not in the people team. I spend a lot of time speaking to engineers. a lot of the time of what's working for them, what's not working for them. I spend a lot of time with people in finance or people in legal or people in operations or people in product. How do they experience Canva? What does that look like? And solving for those. And so spending a huge amount of time outside of my core home base is something that I spend a lot of time with.

26:51There's always so much to do in a people space in any one day. I just tend to try as much as I can to spend as much time with the people that we are building for at Canva.

27:00Jennie Rogerson:So one of the things then that I kind of wanted to pick up is actually you talk about this concept of in service of your team, which is quite clear. I think one of the other things that Canva and particularly the people team have made a name for is this love of open sourcing tools. You're sort of known for putting the work that you do internally out there for others to use. Can you share a bit about the reason for doing all of that? Yeah, so a few examples of this was we have a grief and loss guide. so how to navigate someone in your team losing someone close to them and we also have a family domestic violence support guide internally so how to support someone in your team who's going through family domestic violence and those came actually from a fix-it we had a fix-it from someone who had very sadly lost their wife and his fix-it was my coach navigated this situation as well as they possibly could coach being manager or someone exactly right so my manager or my coach navigated this as best as they possibly could.

27:57But in retrospect, they did put their foot in it quite a lot. And I would love if we could create some sort of guide to help those people support others. And I just thought it was the most touching fix it form. And I immediately grabbed it and said, absolutely, yes. And so we worked with that person to build out a guide on how coaches or leads or teams could support someone going through a ground shaking loss in their lives and guides on what would be helpful to say what would not be helpful to say what support we had what leave people could take and all of those bits of information that when someone comes to you and says i've had this horrendous loss where do you go what as a coach how do you know how to start and so we just want to put together the starting point and then the same happened with family domestic violence.

28:48And we're currently building one on navigating cancer. And so those kind of moments that are incredibly hard that as a coach, in your coach training or your manager training, they don't often come up or they come up as kind of a byline of like, oh, if someone's going through something hard, this is kind of how to navigate and just taking that down to the next level. Then constantly building on it. They're not static guides. Every time someone goes through it, they can share feedback on it. And at the bottom of each of the guides, it says this is how to share feedback. Please do because each of these experiences can really help us build these better.

29:17and then where it came from on open sourcing was I think someone reached out to me in a role in a people role in another startup in Australia and they said so we had someone from Canva who joined our team and they said this was really impactful could you share it and I said of course here it is and then I thought back to my time working in startups and thought I didn't have enough time I was wearing 10 hats at the time if someone had come to me at the time and said I'm going through this awful experience, I would have had no idea where to start. And so I just thought, I wonder if we just open source them and put them out there, they will be helpful for others.

29:51And so what we did was we shared the Canva link very widely, we put blogs up on how we navigated, how we built it, and then we shared the templates and just said, free of free to make these completely your own. You know, they don't have to come from Canva, but they have been really helpful for us. And if you would like to use them, please do. And just that bit of giving back to the ecosystem, I don't think there should be a gatekeeping on care. I think it's such an important moment to leverage all your learnings and to share as much as possible. You know, we've got an incredible people team at Canva who deeply care and have built these really thoughtful guides in partnership with people going through these harrowing experiences.

30:21And so in my mind, why wouldn't you share those? I think it's incredible to be able to help in as many ways as you can.

30:28Jennie Rogerson:Yeah, it makes perfect sense. I mean, as you say, I think once you get to sort of five and a half thousand people, you actually statistically get to experience like pretty, a pretty interesting cross-section of the like realities of being a human. So, you know, it's very likely that someone in Canva who's gone through it knows someone else who's gone through it and, you know, you can see the proliferation. Absolutely. I think one of the biggest things was when we started building the Family Domestic Violence Guide, I think there was this kind of shock from people who didn't know the statistics on that, that, oh, would someone at Canva be going through that?

30:58Well, at 5 ,500 people, there's probably something, someone going through quite a lot in all of those aspects, right? I think it's such an important thing to be mindful of and a reality of many people's day to day that when they show up for work, they are also navigating a lot in the background and you have no idea what that might be. And so I think raising these really big topics to the forefront is incredibly important just to give acknowledgement of what might be happening in your team or what might be happening to your boss. You never know which direction.

31:27Jennie Rogerson:That's totally right. I'm interested then to kind of get underneath, I think for a lot of people who don't play a people role, it's, I sort of describe, I think people can be a little bit like defense in a funny way, which is like, it's quite a iceberg type role. There's the parts that people see, and then there's all the stuff that's beneath the surface that for a variety of like, you know, confidentiality reasons, or they're frankly like hard topics. They might be like someone's actually going through a thing, but it's not for everyone to know just yet. It could be probation, people not passing or, you know, really tough stuff.

32:00Jennie Rogerson:I think it's probably easy to imagine actually that for those of us on the outside, it looks like actually that might be like loneliness in that job. Do you find that to be true? Like because you know so much more in many ways than what is publicly available to the average camp or not? I think firstly, you're right on the iceberg analogy. I think that's true for a lot of people, not just in people roles, right? I have no idea the depth or breadth of a platform engineer in the infrastructure team at Canva. I'm sure their roles are incredibly complex and I'm sure they're dealing with a whole lot of breadth.

32:32And so I think it's always important to have empathy for any other role, no matter what it is, no matter what you can see. I think there is in the people space, this understanding that because you are human, you can easily do human resources. And maybe I was guilty of that before I joined the people space. I don't really remember how I thought about it, but certainly since joining the people space almost five years ago now, the breadth of topics that any one person in the people team is navigating is enormous. And I think everyone in kind of high growth companies are also navigating that amount of complexity.

33:04I don't think I'm alone in that. But I think the breadth and the gear changing certainly is unique and kind of tricky to navigate. I think in these kind of roles, the buck stops with me on a lot of decisions for five and a half thousand people. And it's a responsibility that I take incredibly seriously. It's so important to have people to just go to and say, okay, how are we going to navigate this and to know them really well and for them to know you really well and just to have that humanizing moment. And then also at my people leadership level, my people leadership team are incredible, incredible people.

33:36And we have this really strong network effect of what we're working on and making sure that we are incredibly tied together in what that looks like. And so I don't find the role lonely. I find it actually incredibly fulfilling and exciting. and the opposite of lonely, in fact. Very, very fortunate.

33:53Jennie Rogerson:I'm glad to hear it. I'm interested, do you think there's anyone who's had an outsized influence on the way you think, the way you work? Many, many, many people. I think the founders of Canva incredibly closely. I think Mel and Cliff especially, who I've worked with really closely. I think Mel on the depth of care. She's navigating a huge amount at any one time, but she deeply cares about every single experience and that has influenced me in a really meaningful way. And then Cliff on a different kind of side of the coin perhaps is like the speed element. Like he is really tenacious on things and incredibly, I can overthink things to the next level and he's always pushing me of just like, nope, come on, done is better than perfect, let's go.

34:36And he said something to me a long time ago that stuck with me. He said, you've got great gut instincts that sometimes you ignore for too long. And just listening to your instinct a little bit more and making faster decisions has been such an influence and such a huge one for me. And so both of them in different ways have influenced me. But at the same time, I think the Canva leadership team has inspired me and influenced me and how they think I'm incredibly close with the engineering leads and how they think about things very pragmatically. But also the Canva team, I mean, you've probably gathered from this conversation that I really listened to the team.

35:07And sometimes when we're building something, I'll think, oh, someone said that in the Pulse a couple of years ago, and I'll dig out this comment that ties into something we're doing years down the line. And I think they influence in a huge way.

35:18Jennie Rogerson:That's beautiful. So I wanted to come to, you know, where we are in the moment right now and where Canva is. I mean, you alluded to like speed of change, you know, you can set up a system and it's already out of date. That is true across not only system design, but that is true across tech, that's true across operations and go to market. You name it, nothing is sort of relied upon, you know, it might've been the perfect strategy last week, but something new has occurred. Canva's made this really interesting and very rare move of going from being a quote unquote pre-AI company to being a company that's incorporating, building AI into its core offering in a way that I think everyone can agree is working.

35:59Jennie Rogerson:God knows there are a lot of tech companies attempting it and not succeeding. So I guess I wanted to understand particularly from your perspective on the people side, how all of that is working and in particular like what it kind of looks like building all of this stuff at speed as it comes out. I know that you've just done an AI discovery week. Maybe let's start there. What was this discovery week? What was its intention? You'll be shocked to hear that it came from our team and I learned about, I thought about it when we had, we did a people pulse and the team told us that they wanted more time to experiment and to learn about AI.

36:37And so that was, it would have been a year and a half ago now when we built our first AI Discovery Week. And what we did, it was essentially people saying to us, I just don't have time to do my job and to learn about AI. And I would love to, but I'm going to have to do it in weekends or evenings or, you know, in the spare five minutes I've got between things. I just don't have the time and I'm not able to go deep enough. And so we intentionally built AI Discovery Week, the first one, to be just this moment where everyone could put their pens down on day-to-day work and truly focus and we brought in external speakers we had internal speakers and so how the week runs is it's three days of learning in a two-day hackathon and so for the three days you have kind of the kickoff and this Q &A session of topics that are really top of mind for people and then we have specialty sessions so learn you know how legal are doing this learn how to build a people agent learn on this certain tool, learn from this certain person.

37:32And we blended those education sessions from external speakers on tooling or systems or how other people were doing using AI in their companies, and then really showcasing the incredible people we had at Canva and what they were doing. And trying to make the learning all very tangible, because I think there is a difference between learning kind of hypothetical and what people are doing and with AI actually seeing what they're building, how they're building it, what that looks like in that more tangible way that then you think, I could do that, or I now understand even how to start, right? If you've got people who joined Canva, and they really were just prompting, trying to take someone from prompting to building an agent is a very steep learning curve.

38:09And making sure that people had that in their hands of how to learn was the driving force behind that. So we built that. And then recently, we did our second AI discovery, which is the same format, so deeper learning level and building people on that journey. And it's been enormously impactful, I think, not only on the learning front. But when we did our kickoff, for example, talking about the emotions that go behind AI, I think is something that's incredibly important that I don't know that it's talked about a lot, but I think it's something important.

38:35Jennie Rogerson:What do you mean by the emotions behind AI? So for example, you can be incredibly excited about where AI is going and also deeply thoughtful or concerned about the environmental impact. And talking about how those things sit together, I think is important. But also, we have a collective women channel at Canva, which is kind of an ERG or employee resource group of this incredible cohort of people. And one of the threads was so interesting of what are the emotions that come up for you when you talk about AI? And one of the responses which really resonated with me was, I equally feel overwhelmed and very underwhelmed on how AI fits into my world and what it can do.

39:15And just having those open conversations of what that feels like and looks like. And with the rate of change with AI of new models coming out or new tools or new systems or new expectations of what it's meant to be and how you're meant to use it, everyone's feeling behind. And then for a moment in time, when you think you've learned something or you have learned something and you are tangibly putting into effect, you feel slightly ahead. And then all of a sudden you're behind again. And that's overwhelming and exhausting and exciting and all of these emotions all at once, often before lunchtime.

39:43And just acknowledging that, I think, has been a big unlock for us. I shared this in the people team, this kind of emotional journey that you might go on with AI. And then I shared it during the kickoff of AI Discovery Week. And actually just talking about that, we heard from our team was just this kind of sigh of relief of not alone in this kind of emotional journey that I'm going on of how we learn with AI and what it looks like and how that operates, which was incredibly important. And that, I think, unlocked the next level of impact that we're able to have. So we had some enormous stats. I think it was like 25 ,000 plus hours of learning hours across the week.

40:15And we had 64 different sessions across varying different specialties and all of those things. And then when we did our most recent people polls, we went up six percentage points in the question, I am happy with the ratio of time on impactful work versus busy work.

40:30Jennie Rogerson:It's an enormous jump. That's really cool. So I'd actually like to sort of unpack another thing that Camper's done quite a lot. Like you've been on a spree of acquisitions. one might say, I think it's something like five companies in the last 12 to 18 months you've brought into the Canva sphere. And for any of the listeners here who have either been through an acquisition themselves or in the acquisitional mode might be doing the same thing, I'd love some of your lessons from a people side, people and culture side. What does it look like to bring in a whole team from another company that's maybe been as intentional as Canva has about how they create who they are and what they stand for.

41:08Jennie Rogerson:Like maybe if you could share some of the thinking you do around acquisitions from a people side, that'd be great. So I think I have a slightly different view on this because I joined Canva in 2019 and there were a few acquisitions that we made while I was in the leadership ops or chief of staff role. And now there's been a few more while I'm in the people role. And so I have kind of two different viewpoints on it. But I think there are a lot of commonalities right through. I think we have been incredibly intentional with how we bring in acquisitions. And, you know, we've acquired these amazing companies that are doing amazing things with these incredible teams.

41:39And something we were very intentional on very early that Malloncliffe are very strong on is making sure that, number one, I think the product direction of both products is going in the same direction, I think is incredibly important as kind of a foundational piece.

41:51Jennie Rogerson:It sounds obvious, but like most acquisitions fail because it turns out there isn't the synergy you thought there was, right? And then I think being very intentional about how you bring companies and teams in. And so every acquisition that we've made at Canva has been slightly different. So we've brought in teams of hundreds, we've brought in teams of two. And so there's obviously differences between those. But something we have been really tried to do very intentionally is to be very intentional and mindful about how we bring those teams in and talking to the founders early on of what means a lot to them about their culture and how does that work.

42:22But also making sure that you're not making changes on day one. I think being slow and intentional about how you bring people in and making sure that the team, you know, you acquired an incredible team like keep letting them run as they are, I think is one of the biggest learnings at Canva. And then making sure that you are intentional and you're having open conversations about, you know, some of the great conversations that I had with lots of the acquisitions needs was what really matters about your culture that you want to keep? You know, what are the cultural tenants that if you took that away from the team, it would feel like a real loss and they wouldn't want to stay or they wouldn't feel like they belonged.

42:57And I think being incredibly intentional.

42:59Jennie Rogerson:Where no matter of like Canva being great is enough to compensate for the loss of whatever they had. And they didn't sign up to work at Canva. They signed up to work at the company they're in. And, you know, people are very excited about joining Canva and there's that side of it. But they did sign up to being part of Flourish or Kaleido or, you know, any one of those other teams. And I think being very mindful of that in, we think Canva is great, but, you know, there are parts of it that you might not or that you're just a bit nervous of or hesitant about. Having your Flourish email address might mean a lot to people because that's something they've got a lot of history on or whatever it might be.

43:30Or we do these Q &As where we are very, very honest and open and people hear directly from me as the founder on what really matters. And I think every acquisition has said something slightly different, but there are cultural tenants that they immediately recognize all three weeks down the line. They say, oh, I thought of another one and I really want to keep this and I want to be very intentional about this. And then working with those companies over time to see what they want to take from Canva, see what they don't want to take from Canva. So for example, one of our acquisitions didn't move into our growth and impact or our performance cycles for many years.

44:00They wanted to run their own. They had a very good way of managing performance and managing team growth and they just weren't interested. Other acquisitions on day one say, oh, we've been meaning to build that. We'll just take yours and do that and integrate immediately. And so I think not trying to treat every single one the same or to apply a playbook to everyone in the same way. And if you've really acquired great companies with great product vision in the same direction and you've acquired companies with incredible founders who are values driven, those conversations are really easy and they feel really natural and there's a lot of give and take.

44:32Jennie Rogerson:Yeah, that's brilliant. So I'm interested then also to kind of think about for our audience, many of them are not at the scale of Canva, five and a half thousand people. If you can cast your mind back to when Canva was smaller, what do you think that maybe a founder listening to this who's scaling, let's say from 50 to 100, 50 to 200, what's one thing you would suggest that they like drop things that feel important now and say, no, this is the thing you need to get right. It might not look like a burning platform yet, but it will be. And you should try now to get your head around it. Goodness, there's so many things.

45:10I think on two slightly different levels, maybe I'll talk kind of company level and then I'll talk founder level. So I think on a company level, your culture is your people. Like that's it. And so every single person that you bring in matters deeply for better or worse in your culture. And so I think being really clear on the culture that you want to build? Like, what are your values? What means a lot to your team that exists already? What means a lot to you as a founder? What company would you be proud of in five years time? Like, what is the feeling that you want people to feel when they're in your culture?

45:41Does that look empowering? What do your values look like? Like, when I saw the Canva values, it's kind of this like light bulb moment of like, that sounds great. To be a force for good, absolutely. Like, to pursue excellence. I love that. Set crazy big goals and make them happen. Like, those values mean a lot. and they are what are the cultural tenets that really matter. And so I think being really clear on the culture that you want and then hiring people that imbue those values and imbue that culture I think is so important. And then making sure that every single person that joins your company is aspiring to that and building towards that.

46:13I think something that I talk a lot about at Culture is kind of no-passengers culture and every single person adds to the Canva culture. And that's really important that you don't join Canva to experience the culture. you joined Canva to be the culture.

46:27Jennie Rogerson:So just want to pick up like really quickly tactically on the culture thing. It feels like we've come, you know, in this space through various iterations. There was the iteration, which was like, the only culture that matters is the one that's written by the founders right at the get go, because it's the most authentic to who they are and the kind of way they show up has this outsized impact on the team anyway. So, and then there was this sort of version where we went through like consult fully widely across the team, everything comes bottom up from the team, et cetera. Do you have a view on like when you speak to these founders and they're like, okay, I really want to nail this like culture piece.

47:02Jennie Rogerson:Do you advise them to squirrel away in a room as a small set of people come up with something and then send it out? Or like, what would your, what would your advice be for them? Something that we did in the very early days was when we were building out our skills framework at Canva, it came from a very small team building a kind of 360 feedback loop and asking everyone you know if you could learn from someone in the company who would it be and what would you learn and then we got this amazing breadth of information on like what were the skills that people really wanted to learn and how did that they want to grow and so our four skill pillars which we still use today come from that but it was uh like craft strategy communication and leadership are the four skill pillars and then underneath each of those are more tangible skills.

47:49So things like rally others or technical depth, or, you know, a number of more tangible things that are measurable. And we built that from the team, but they were guided by the founders, which, and I think it's always a bit of both. And it needs to be, it's a conversation. Again, it's a conversation of what is the company that the founders want to build and what does that look like? But then, you know, they are influenced by the people around them and they've hired these incredible people. And I think there's a to and a fro of that.

48:19Jennie Rogerson:One of the things that strikes me, Jenny, and I think your own story is such a testament to this, but you've also talked about other people, is that Canva does think differently about talent, which is interesting because you're in a position now where you could be extremely selective on all of the same metrics that all other tech companies are, which is like, oh, we're only looking for the quote, best of the best. And you've gone and done X job in Y company and all that sort of stuff. And yet it's interesting to me that you've maintained this like, no, we're willing to take a person who's stacking shelves but has a really active Discord community around them and they're clearly a self-learner.

48:53Jennie Rogerson:So I guess I wanted to come back to for those in the audience who maybe they're already in tech but maybe they're not exactly in the job that they wanted to be or maybe they're not yet but they're curious to get into it. How would you advise them to think about that moment of applying? Like what are you looking for? What do you think someone should use as a sort of guiding principle for the types of roles they put themselves out there for? I think something that does really stand out is being really clear on the unique value that you bring. For example, when I was looking for a role at Canva, I didn't really care what the role was.

49:32I wanted to have a massive impact in whatever it was. I was a pretty big generalist and so happy to put my name in the ring for anything. and just being clear that it was the company that I was excited about. It was the mission that I was excited about and the value of that company and how they lived and breathed those values I think was incredibly important to me. And I see that in candidates too. When they know themselves and they're willing to put themselves forward for things, they do really stand out. And I think really looking at what that unique value is that you have, there is a responsibility on the company.

50:03I wouldn't have applied for Canva. I remember reading the job application and thinking, I haven't done any of that, but I reckon I could or I can actually give myself a shot. And then I saw that line of even if you don't hit 100 % of the criteria for this role, please do put your name in the ring. And it just tipped me over the edge into thinking like, okay, I will. And that is a responsibility on companies to really make sure that they're putting themselves out there in what they want and helping candidates feel like they belong. And another example that we use at Canva is we ask in the job application process, is there any help or assistance that you need through the job application process?

50:37It's something so small. But if there is something that you need, you feel like, okay, I'm not going to have to show up to the first interview and explain it then and feel bashful about it or whatever that looks like. You can just upfront say, yes, I do. I need this. And we can take that into consideration and make sure that you feel like you are set up for success in that first conversation.

50:54Jennie Rogerson:Okay. So a closing question, as you know, we like to do these on Wild Hearts. What's something you believe that others don't? I think I spoke about this a little bit earlier, but it's something that I feel very strongly about. I think spending time with as many people across the business as you possibly can. I think it's always many people's intention to do that, but I actively carve out time to do that, to speak to as many people as I can. And so that looks like on any one day, speaking to roundtables of people on certain topics, it also might mean speaking to the engineering leads about, you know, workshopping.

51:29Do we do this? Do we do this? What are the pros and cons of each? It might mean when I go to our global offices, I do Jenny kind of coffee office hours where I just sit at a table in the common areas and say to the local Slack channel, I'm going to be here from 1 p.m. to 5 p.m. if you want to have a chat. Eventually, I'll stop drinking caffeine. Yeah, I might be highly caffeinated by the end. And I just sit there on my laptop and do a bit of work and people come and speak to me about anything that's on their mind. And just really hearing that global perspective is also incredibly important. and just spending time, as much time as you possibly can with your team, I think is something that I believe very strongly and I don't know if others don't believe that, but it's something that I spend a lot of time doing and I think it's incredibly impactful for how we build.

52:09Jennie Rogerson:Jenny, thank you for being on Wild Hearts. Thank you so much for having me.

52:15Jennie Rogerson:Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Wild Hearts. If you want to learn more from other ambitious people building, designing and creating the world that we all want to live in, then please hit the subscribe and follow button. This podcast is produced by Camilla Herring from Blackbird. Our marketing genius is Laura Cofford. And our editor is Andy Jones from Colour and Sound Creative. Thank you all so much for listening and I'll talk to you next week.