Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks: The rules she never learned and why that's the point

25:07Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:Yeah. So in terms of defining our audience, our audience is predominantly Gen Z and millennial women in Sydney and Melbourne. So like very much Australia-based young women. The millions of them though. The millions of them. but our website is still like very global so I guess that's mainly our social audience too but I would say the one thing I've learned is that there's a difference between like presenting facts about your company and talking at people and storytelling and I think people particularly now like maybe clickbait did used to work but I think our audience right now is very much compelled and drawn to storytelling.

25:48Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:And by that, I mean, you know, presenting your company's mission and the work you're doing in a way that really cuts through to young women. And a lot of that, honestly, what's worked for us has been pulling the curtain up a little and letting people like behind the scenes of your company and showing what's happening in your office. And it's often the content you wouldn't think would work that really does land. What's a good example of like a piece of content that you're like, how the hell, why the hell did that go viral? Even like showing what a day in the life looks like. Like if we were in LA for work and just showed a day, just waking up, going through a day and going to bed.

26:25Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:Like that content, people just love that. Why? And I think it's funny because it's also linked to the book that I've written, which we'll get to. But it's people who just love looking behind the scenes. And I think it also by allowing them behind the scenes of your company and learning more about you as a founder, which is something I've had to come to terms with, like people are interested in the people running the company, is that it helps your audience build trust with your brand and your company. And at the end of the day, that's the most important thing. Like they want to know the people involved in the company.

26:59Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:And that's something that I've only recently learned in the last year, because I've always felt like I should be invisible. Our leadership team should be invisible because we're like a newsroom platforming female like reporters it shouldn't be about us but I think at the end of the day to grow your brand now particularly like for our audience you have to be revealing more about yourself and the company behind the scenes. More generally stepping into what you've learned about media in general like what do you see founders do wrong when they engage media? I think tied to what we were just talking about leaning too heavily into like the corporate media brand and i think what a lot of founders often don't understand is the scrappier the content the better it does like even down to content filmed on our iphones will perform better than professionally shot footage and that's something we've had to build into our strategy so spend less like you don't need an agency to run your content yeah just hire a gen z like the one on our team's brilliant and she has totally redone our entire strategy and has grown our audience by like 10x.

28:10Yeah. So I think there was kind of an era where everyone thought everything needed to look quite shiny.

28:15Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:Totally. Like it doesn't have to be polished. Yeah. And a lot of it also comes down to frequency and how often you're posting as well. So even if it's like lo-fi scrappy content being posted every week, rather than like the polished agency video once a month, that's what lands. Yeah. So, I mean, actually let's go into that because obviously the thing behind all of this is the algorithms that drive what people see, right? Yeah. So you've got to, as a media organisation, manage two things simultaneously. One is like your intuition and your sense from experimentation about how the algorithm is treating missing perspectives content.

28:49And also I'm interested at the same time in your perspective around platform risk. So like you've devised missing perspectives, you've got hands, you know, in lots of pies, so you've got some kind of diversification there. But like as the founder, do you think about managing the fact you're not in control of those distribution channels and there's an opacity to how they operate.

29:11Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:I don't know which founder said this, but particularly with Instagram, you're renting the audience like you don't own them. And I think that's something that really shaped my thinking going into this year. And that's why we're also now going to be building out our podcast offering because that's something that the Daily O's have also done really well. So I think diversifying it even more than we have and picking up streams of work that we'd part for the last two years, like the app that we've built and honing in on newsletter and podcast where we can actually own our audience. And when you own your audience, you also get unique data insights from them that you don't get from Instagram and TikTok.

29:45Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:But what we've learned over the last two years is Instagram and TikTok are so volatile with the regulatory environment that we can't rely on them anymore. So it's absolutely dictated our strategy. So when I talk to people in preparation for this interview who know you really well, one of the things that really shone through that is unique about you, and I love it about you. I'm nervous. Is you're basically unafraid to ask the question. So the way it was constructed to me is like, if you imagine that you have an idea in the morning about like a really cool partner for your given business and someone who could like, imagine if we got a partnership with this organization.

30:24Most of the time you're like, interesting idea. I'm going to write it to myself. I'm going to ponder it for a little while. Maybe I'll draft an email. I'll cringe at the email. I will never send the email. Maybe I'll think about trying to get an intro via a friend of a friend of a friend. And then like three weeks later, you've done nothing with it. And it's sort of the opportunity passes you by. The way it was described to me is like four minutes after the thoughts occurred to Phoebe, she has sent the literal email to the literal person.

30:49Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:I would love I know the example that they're also referring to. So I really want you to talk a little bit about your propensity to send the email and what it brings you as a founder and an entrepreneur. I always say that cold emailing has gotten us so far. And I think part of that is just having your elevator pitch and just being willing to message that person. Because our whole philosophy has been the worst thing is they say no or they don't reply. So there's always something to gain from it and we've always like emailed people, called emailed, had a coffee with them and then they obviously introduced us to like, like there's no downside.

31:31Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:And I think people need to stop overthinking and just be willing to call and email people they don't know because I think that has honestly played such a big role in both the book, like reaching out to the people I did and also the company. Because there's an analog here for, you know, loads of tech founders as well, which is Like I think the piece that you don't give yourself enough credit for is the sort of snowball effect of having done that. So most decisions we like to pretend as individuals that we're like super rational. But actually social proof is huge. Like when you get an email from someone, you might be like, who are they?

32:05You go on their LinkedIn. You're like, oh, they look vaguely credible. Or maybe it's like someone you know has something to do with them. You know, you think about all the ways that like credibility and integrity gets built up around you. Yeah. And actually it's about like who's the first person you've got there that then builds, you know, opens the door to the next one. So whether you're like doing a fundraise or you're building your first set of customers, like how you go about that strategically is really, really powerful. I really want to come to how that helped you with the book. But before we do that, like maybe actually quite tactically, first of all, how do you get that email?

32:41Second of all, I'm sure you've experimented with approach types. Which ones work? Do you think about it at all? Or are you just like the approach is the thing? That you do it is what matters.

32:54Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:Yeah. Looking back, like Missing Perspectives came off the ground because I'd read the Gates Foundation had a report come out called The Missing Perspectives of Women in News. And I literally cold messaged the COO of the Gates Foundation on LinkedIn. This was before I even had like a website or the idea. I just said like, this is the concept I'm playing with. Would you mind if I use the name? And that's when, I mean, she emailed back and said, she got back to me and said, yes, of course. And then I'll link you with the relevant team. And then we ended up getting funding off the back of them to help get off the ground.

33:25Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:So it's so funny that only just occurred to me like the whole origin story came from a colleague. Did you regret not signing a licensing agreement with you? I would say like I tell everyone the best investment you can make as an early stage founder is buying LinkedIn premium because cold messaging on LinkedIn, it also gives you more credibility because they can go on your profile, see your connections, see your work, see your photo and get a better idea of who you are as opposed to like an email where they don't really have that kind of data. So I always say LinkedIn, it's the best platform, but also people linked to that, you shouldn't be ashamed to also post on LinkedIn.

34:02Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:Like I think a part of that, a lot of what, how I approach my work is just not having any shame. So I think it's tied to cold emailing, but also putting yourself out there and posting your achievements on LinkedIn as well. Like I think a lot of it is just removing that, you know, barrier that a lot of founders have and just putting yourself out there in a way that you probably wouldn't. And it's uncomfortable at first, but then you just get used to it. It's pretty clear you have strong social impact goals. You've gone into this. You talk a lot about mission-led, purpose-led. You've got your big vision, but you haven't set up Missing Perspectives as a not-for-profit.

34:44You didn't set it up as a charity. That's very, very deliberate. Demystify for people why this is also a great business. Yeah.

34:53Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:So we are asked all the time, how do you guys make money? And a lot of people do think we are a charity because we're platform female reporting or just we work with young women they think we're a charity like it is something do they not pay attention to where money gets spent in the economy yeah like women are some of the biggest spenders they are the biggest group um so yeah we get asked all the time are we a charity are we a non-profit and honestly at the very beginning we were considering that like whether we go down the traditional public interest journalism foundation funded route. But then we're like, no, women's storytelling is valuable.

35:31Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:What gave you confidence in that? Because, I mean, an example that I love pointing to is Hello Sunshine, which is the company founded by Sarah Harden and Maurice Witherspoon. Sarah's an Aussie. They were acquired for like, I would have to fact check this, but well over a hundred million. And Sarah Harden's also been a massive supporter of ours. And I think she also really encouraged us to pursue this as a storytelling kind of vehicle and media company rather than going down that route. So Phoebe, I also want to turn to another pillar of your work over the last year and a year and a half, which is that you've released a book called The Right Hand, where you interview, I think it's eight chief of staff to world leaders.

36:14So like these world leaders are real people. It's not only the likes of John Howard in Australia, but Jacinda Ardern in New Zealand, Tony Blair in the UK, you know, Kamala Harris in the US, but also, you know, Nelson Mandela. Like, first of all, talk to me about where the idea from this book came from and why is it that you wanted to go, I mean, it's obvious why people would want to hear about those people. It's less obvious why they want to hear about the person behind the person.

36:43Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:The person behind the person. So I would say I've always been interested in politics, particularly in pop culture, like West Wing, House of Cards, and I'd always loved a chief of staff character like Liam McGarry. Who doesn't? Love him. And then when I was working in Canberra, that's when I first met a chief of staff. And when I was working at Prime Minister and Cabinet, it was John Kunkel working for Scott Morrison. And it was so funny because he was essentially the second most powerful person in government, but no one knew what he looked like or who he was. Or like we never met him. And so that's when I became really curious about the fact that they're very invisible.

37:26Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:And whenever he'll kind of like appear in our documents, we knew something important was happening. and then basically a few years later on our Missing Perspectives Instagram, Justin Trudor's Chief of Staff, Katie Telford, started following us and so her and I got to know each other and we jumped on a call and it was honestly the way she would talk about Justin that I found so fascinating because she knew him in a way that no one else really did. She'd worked with him for what, eight years or something? Oh, over 10 years now, yeah. So I pitched the idea to her and she was like, that's a great idea.

37:55Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:So then I hit up – I chose Chiefs of Staff to world leaders that I was genuinely curious about, and I wanted a really good selection across the political spectrum. And so all of them said yes. And I think – I mean, besides Peter Graff. Back to your beauty of the cold email. Back to the beauty of the cold email. And it's interesting, Nelson Mandela's Chief of Staff, when I emailed her, she replied saying, what I love about this project is that a lot of the interviews focus on Mandela, but I love that your series is the people behind the scenes. And so I felt like she fully understood the idea. So, yeah, that's how it came about through Tudor as chief of staff.

38:31Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:And I just got back from Canada doing an event with her and Justin, which was amazing. Yeah. I mean, not bad. Not bad. Didn't you also do an event with Kamala Harris as chief of staff when you were just in the US? Yeah, she was amazing. Yeah. Incredible. So, I mean, there's a lot that gets covered in the book. And, you know, as a political junkie as well, I loved it. But it's, you know, one of the things that's interesting is a lot of these chiefs of staff are working with their principals as they are known. You know, they're kind of principles, whether they are a prime minister or a president, they're known as a sort of principle.

38:58They work with them for like a really long time, decades in some instances. You know, they know them better sometimes than they know themselves. And I'm super curious about what you've learned about human relationships in interviewing these people, particularly in the context of like the kinds of people who live through world events that we all read about and they are living in their everyday, day, like just sort of the crucible, like could there be any more pressured an environment than being in the room when you're deciding are we or are we not joining the war in Iraq, as was the case for Blair, or are we or are we, how are we addressing the COVID-19 challenge as is the case for Jacinda and so forth.

39:40Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:And that's what I loved about the interviews because they were able to really add colour and bring that to light. Like what was it like sitting in the room when you were showing the projected death toll for the first time in the COVID pandemic? So it was that kind of detail and then i would say also learning they kind of shed new light on their bosses that we all thought we knew um and so like a story i love was nelson mandela's team um his chief of staff was kind of saying a he had a team of all women which i didn't know which we love um but she was kind of joking about how nelson mandela was very vain and he would take like a long time to get to meetings because he'd be doing his hair in the mirror but also the impact that prison had had on him and because he was in prison for 30 years he missed the credit card revolution so would still carry coins and they would have to say like you know we have these credit cards now um so stories like that that I just think the news doesn't pick up because it obviously focuses on the events but I think the book and the interview is really brought to light as you said like the human side of these leaders and also the relationships at the heart of that and a issue like attention I loved exploring across the interviews is whether they consider themselves friends with their boss.

40:49Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:Right. Because they all had a different view. Yeah. And I also think I translate, like, it's an interesting conversation to be had about companies as well. Like, whether you should be friends with your chief of staff. Right. Well, let's get into that because actually, you know, outside of politics and the sort of military apparatus, which is really where, like, back in the day, I looked into where the term chief of staff came from. And like, there's as many models as there are people with that title, right? Like, what is a chief of staff means very, very different things in different organisations.

41:17But the sector where they've really exploded in the last like five to ten years is in tech. And so like without being too grandiose about it, there are some similarities between world leaders and like fast growing scale founders. And, you know, partly it's that they have like unreasonable ambitions. They have a sense of personal like capacity to change and shape the world around them. And they are deeply shaped by those macro forces that they are trying to constantly butt up against. They're trying to, you know, create companies that didn't previously exist, go up against incumbents. Like there's a lot of, there's a sense of that pressure that is somewhat analogous between those two settings.

41:59And so it's easy to understand why having a right hand, which is the language you use here, you know, could be powerful for tech founders. I'm really interested in like, I want to get underneath this notion of trust. And what is trust? What is loyalty? Like what is true loyalty that lasts through the ages is, you know, quite clearly not about being a yes person. But, you know, if you're constantly butting up against your principal, they don't trust you enough to give you the hard stuff or show you the hard stuff and you're gone. Like what do you think you learned about what makes those people really succeed?

42:31Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:Thrive in their role. Yeah, I would say one of the biggest takeaways was trust is currency. Like you need the trust of your boss. And if that's not there, the relationship is broken. and I think I write about it at the start of the book, but part of like when the idea was forming was there was a very public falling out between a chief of staff, Sally Rugg, and her boss, the independent MP, Monique Ryan. So that kind of, you know, really... After that, I started really exploring what makes a relationship work and what doesn't. Like Trudeau and Katie Telford, they can communicate via eye contact alone because they've worked together for that long and that trust and loyalty is there.

43:07Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:So many thoughts. What has also been fascinating is a lot of the chiefs and staff have gone on to continue working for their boss beyond politics into, you know, being a private citizen. And I think that really goes to the fact that the loyalties to the person and not, I mean, obviously the public, but they're very much intrinsically linked to the person they were working for. And then I would also say a key theme that came through was that challenging your boss is also a form of care. And someone put in those words, which I loved, like those exact words, because I'm like, it is caring, challenging your boss and giving them that different perspective.

43:46Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:But then I'm like, you can only do that if the trust is there. So it's important to build that trust so you can have those difficult conversations. But all of them kind of said, and this is where it's interesting with political chiefs of staff because they all kind of said at the end of the day you have to remember that your boss is an elected official and you're not but that's why I would love to explore a lot of them talk about like I didn't want to be the story the worst idea is that I'm the story yeah if you're in the headlines it's the worst day of the job but I do find that interesting in that looking at the chief of staff role in tech and business like do they have more power than a political chief of staff because there's not that elected official element which is something yeah I would love to explore down the line.

44:29So actually, like, what do you think you picked up about how, like, imagine someone's listening to this and thinking, actually, like, I do think I would be able to achieve much more. I could be more highly leveraged with a really smart right hand. Other than reading the book and going, like, going through it in detail, like, what would you encourage them to look for in a person? Because, like, you can't test directly for loyalty. You can't test directly for, like, you know, trust over the long term. But what are the sort of things that you might pick up that you learnt through interviewing these people.

44:59Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:I would say the majority of the people I interviewed when you compare them with their boss is that they're very different people to the people they're working for. And Jacinda Ardern's chief of staff is an amazing example, Raj, because he's literally the polar opposite of Jacinda Ardern. Like I kind of went into it thinking he would be very like her and was really surprised. Yeah, super introverted, right? Kind of introverted, like totally different. I think he also provided that different way of thinking for her as well. And that's something when I did the event with Trudeau in Canada, he really spoke to the fact that what he got most out of their working relationship with him and Katie was Katie having a different way of thinking, being challenging.

45:38Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:And that's why he had chosen her as his chief of staff 15 years ago. So he actively sought out someone who just thought a different way and really thought outside the box and could bring that lens to the role. So I think looking for people who just think differently to you, because you don't want to yes men and that's why it was funny going into the tony blair interview because everyone had written about how he had this team of yes men yeah and i asked his chief of staff jonathan about that and he kind of said we were all saying no behind the scenes but publicly you have to say yes which i found hilarious but yeah you shouldn't surround yourself with yes men and that's why in my team like i encourage them to challenge me like the last thing i want to do is them thinking they can't say that an idea I have is terrible.

46:23Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:And that's why it's also been great building out a very diverse team, including with age, like having younger people on the team. Because like even with media and news, it's evolving in a way where you need to have so many different perspectives in what, you know, we're doing in our strategy. So I think, yeah, just seeking out people with a different perspective and different backgrounds is really important. It has to be asked. I mean, you spoke to the people very, very close to these like name-branded individuals that most of us know. Who did you walk away from the interview being like, wow, I walked away with a completely different impression of that world leader than I went in with?

47:01Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:Probably Nelson Mandela's because I think – More vain. More vain, but also the impact that prison had had on him and how that also informed his leadership and also how progressive he really was. I would probably say Nelson Mandela, but, like, they were all – I went away from every interview learning something new about everyone um even tony blair's chief of staff like that for me was one of my favorite interviews because you also forget like what happened during their time in office like how like they had a yeah and like even him talking about the day princess diana died like what that looked like behind the scenes um and they're also a really funny example of like they don't see themselves as friends going back to that conversation yeah um but yeah i mean yet they share shirts i'm like I'm pretty sure if you share shirts, you're friends, but yeah.

47:49Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:And even like learning more about John Howard. So like a lot of the interviews with leaders who were before my time or like I was very young, just learning more about, you know, Port Arsa with John Howard and like what they were navigating. I just found, yeah, it was interesting learning about the insights from those events. So one of the things that we've worked with you on is high agency women. And we both care a lot about demonstrating that the technology ecosystem has already has phenomenal women leaders in it and also we want more. Yeah. Like what's that taught you like in a meta sense as both a woman founder doing that and representing that?

48:27How do you sort of find your unique voice in that whole ecosystem?

48:32Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:I would say like a lot of the narratives around being a female founder, like it's very deficit and negative. And I think that a lot of like that has turned off friends I know from like really pursuing there. Startup ideas, and I just think platforming more women who can talk about their experiences that have also been positive, I think genuinely plays an impact, has an impact. So I would say, yeah, platforming more experiences that are different. You know, we're always reading about the things that go wrong. And I just think putting more stories out there. I'm really intrigued by the kind of story you've built up through this conversation about what it means to frankly build trust and rapport with an audience as a startup founder in this day and age, right?

49:17It is sometimes it's not a case of like your work will speak for itself. You also need to be bringing people along on that journey. And so for some people, it's like, it's the case of, and many people do this very well. Some of our founders, including do this really, really well. They like share a lot about who they are in all facets of their life, both as a founder and outside of being a founder in this like kind of, you know, no holds barred kind of way. And there's very good reason to believe why that would build like a strong connection in a kind of parasocial sense with their audience and the people who believe in them.

49:52Equally, like founding a company is hard enough as it is. You know, there are some days when you don't want anyone to see how hard it's been. You want to like put the face on and the putting of the face on is the way that you get through a tough patch. But those two things can live in tension in this modern world. Yeah, being vulnerable.

50:12Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:Yeah. Yeah. So like both, I mean, you've got this like on so many levels, like as a founder yourself grappling with what you know actually resonates with audiences and you are curating through all of these media like sort of formats this opportunity for people. Like what's the way of squaring that circle or is it unsquarable and it's a case of like do what works for you at the time? I think let's do what works for you. Brilliant. So for a closeout question, Phoebe, what's something you've changed your mind about in this past year? Something I've changed my mind about would be to be really practical.

50:51Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:I think it goes back to what we were talking about before, that audiences want to know behind the scenes of the company and they want to know about you as the founder. So that's something I'd like resisted for so many years because I very much prefer to be invisible. But what I've learned is that if you're founding a company and leading a company in today's climate, you have to be public and you have to be building publicly. And a lot of people would still disagree with that, but I think that's how you get the growth and that's how you build your personal brand and that's how you build your trust with your audience and consumers.

51:24And maybe a related one is what's something that you believe that others don't?

51:29Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:That's a really tough question. it would be that you need a plan and it's probably terrible advice but I think for me really not having a five-year plan particularly when the landscape we're seeing right now is changing so rapidly for me it's better to have not had a plan and just pivot and see where we end up than having like this rigid five-year plan with milestones and I think I would say I'm different in that respect because I just don't think you need a plan. You just need to be able to see what's working, be analysing your data and then kind of having that inform where you're going and what you're doing.

52:09I mean, you can't write a book about world leaders and not be also effectively writing a book about power and effectively also writing a book about ambition. What do you think speaking to the right hands of these world leaders has taught you both about power but also about what healthy and maybe even unhealthy ambition looks like up close

52:31Phoebe Saintilan-Stocks:i think i would say ambition isn't the problem it's whether it's what i refer to as purpose driven ambition purpose led ambition and ego led ambition and i think we've seen relationships and companies where there's that ego led ambition like that obviously fails but as long as the ambition is linked to driving purpose and mission then that's a really positive thing yeah

53:00Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Wild Hearts. If you want to learn more from other ambitious people building, designing and creating the world that we all want to live in, then please hit the subscribe and follow button. This podcast is a labor of love from the Blackbird team and Day One. The show is produced by Camilla Herring from Blackbird. Our marketing genius is Laura Cofford. And our editors are from Day One. Andy Jones, Sanjay Chaburia and Georgia Catalan. Thank you all so much for listening and I'll see you all next week.