#56 - Txana Tuwe - Amazon Indigenous Elder on Ancient Technologies and AI

0:00The cure that humanity is needing is the cure of thinking. It's not leaving this technology that is ending with the ancestrality, with the technology of ancestrality. We have the medicine that we use. We enter the dimension of the consciousness of nature. is it?

0:24Liv Boeree:Today's conversation is an unusual one because I'm speaking to Chinatuan, who is one of the spiritual leaders of the Huni Quinn tribe, who are located deep within the Amazon basin in Brazil. Now, this is my first ever interview using a translator. Fortunately, he's joined by an English translator. And also, the moderners of modern technology, I have my personal translator, Google Translate, who's also helping out. Which brings me to one of the main topics of this conversation, which is technology, because it's very rare to get the perspectives of someone whose life is so detached from modern tech.

1:02Liv Boeree:As you'll hear, he has very unique perspectives on what technology even means and how he's noticed the influence of it within his own tribe. Also, what I think is most fascinating is his perspectives on what he calls ancient ancestral technologies. In other words, these naturally occurring medicines, plants, drugs, whatever you want to call them, that his people have been using for thousands of years. So on that note, here is my conversation with Chinatuan.

1:35Liv Boeree:Tué, welcome to Winwin. First of all, can you tell us what brings you to Texas? What's your mission here?

1:48It's the purpose of sharing the ancestral prayers of my tradition, these knowledge, these curations for the world and humanity that needs. That's why I'm here.

2:02Liv Boeree:What are the main differences that you've noticed between your indigenous culture and here in America? You say that there is a need for a cure in the world. The cure that humanity needs is the cure of the pens. We are bringing the sacred prayers that can cure the minds of men, the hearts of men who are thinking of destroying, who are thinking of war. and bringing this prayer together with nature, the sacred element, and praying that it can cure the mind of men, the heart of men. And we see that we need to be union, and we need to have knowledge in our culture, in our spirituality, in our medicine, which is where there is harmony, where there is a cure, where there is all the wisdom that there is no war, which is the wisdom of union, of transformation, peace.

3:54Liv Boeree:communities where you would have constant access to the elders and put people younger than you. And the bond between people was through family and it transcended generations. But that seems to be breaking down. And now people feel more identity with people of their same age. They don't care. You know, we call it like millennials. I'm a millennial. Then there's Gen Z. And then there's the older generations. So perhaps you could talk about what it is about ancestral wisdom that is so important and why you think it is that we have become detached from it.

4:52And the medicine is our ancestors. They were people, even these trees, all of them are medicine, they were people, they were also people, they were also ancestors.

5:13And one of the ways to revitalize all the ancestralities, we use medicine. We have medicine in this way that we use, and we enter into the dimension of the consciousness of the nature, the medicine. We have this connection, We have a connection with our ancestors, with the great spirit, the spirit of sacred food, the nature. We have rapé, which is a medicine that we prepared, which is also an ancestral medicine. We prepare and use it to connect with the ancestral and revitalize all this knowledge, the wisdom, the power of the rezo, the power of us to be protected and heal. It is one of the very important sources of doing diet, the sacred medicine, the cantos, We learn the sacred reos that there are, the origins of each nation, each nation.

6:42Each nation has its own ancestrality. So it's very good to have this connection to revitalize our ancestrality, the sacred spirit and always share the good for the world, praying with the ancestors, teaching, and it's also necessary to teach children. And we go, we live until a certain time and we do it. and that's why all these knowledge have to be passed to the children. We also taught them to be taught as children. As children continue to develop these ancestors ancestral knowledge that can't be solved. The knowledge is not to be solved, they are hiding. If we preserve, we are going to preserve them, are hiding each other.

8:15Liv Boeree:the spirit of Mother Earth herself. I so deeply want others to experience this. However, it's not practical. A lot of people will not want to touch such a powerful medicine in the West. And I understand that. And also from a practical standpoint, how would we get it to so many people such that they could start to appreciate the beauty of nature and the need for harmony? What other ways are there for people to access this wisdom? Are there other rituals? Is it meditation? Should we be having more rites of passage for young men and young women at certain ages? I'm wondering what other alternative pathways are there for people outside of the traditional medicines?

9:14our knowledge, our intercambio cultural. Now it's the beginning, right? We're starting to know more families, together, we can have more knowledge with medicine, to seek the knowledge of our ancestors, who are hidden, to pray for each other, that each other has their ancestors.

9:54And so we are here also praying, that we can open up more and to renounce this spirituality of each other, of the medicine. So I believe that this source of our tradition, our medicine will be able to help much more in every rezo of each people, in every ancestrality of each people. In the healing of this incorporation of ancestral, in the seeking to be able to cure. It's all in the ancestors. It's on the earth, it's on the water, on the sun, on the moon, on the forests. It's everywhere. We pray.

11:01Liv Boeree:actually technology. You know, I'm using this live translation AI, which is enabling me to roughly follow along with what you're saying. Like this didn't exist at this speed until just a few years ago. And you almost have this access to an ancient technology through ayahuasca, rape, all of these other wonderful medicines that are naturally occurring on earth. And they're not just in the Amazon, they're all around the world, different ones. And meanwhile, like in my world, I'm connected to a lot of the leaders in technology building AIs like this. And I wonder if there is a way that we can somehow combine your technology and this technology.

11:44Liv Boeree:And yeah, I would love to hear your thoughts. Do you feel that there is potential there? What is your feeling towards technology? Do you feel it is a benefit or not a benefit? And when is it useful? And how should it be used in such a way so that it doesn't pervert or twist the value of your ancient technology.

12:27We need to learn the technology that there is, like the technology that is computer, computer, other things. We need to see the cause of this technology of the ancestrality, that is hiding everything. So it's important that we can have support and all this causes, so that we can't let all our ancestralities, our ancestors, all our ancestors, hide. all of us. How we expand our ancestors' knowledge and how we can be... It's my dream, too, that I want to fund a company also to support the work that I have in my ancestral life, which we work with them, like women, the fabric of line, like this here, the fabric of line, the fabric of mysang.

14:07Here is where the strength and the knowledge of the ancestral ancestors. The Sampo, the Koka, the Rés, the Pakarim, Nukumana and Bobo. These are very sacred, these Rés that come from the ancestral ancestors. So, if I'm going to be a company, it will help me to share all these women's knowledge, the knowledge of the women's knowledge and the knowledge of the masculine knowledge, as I'm talking about the rezu, the knowledge that we do, with medicine, with birds, the knowledge that comes from the water, from the earth. It would be very important, and also a point that could also guarantee that the potential of ancestral revitalization.

15:19Liv Boeree:You talk about that people can learn from the water. they can learn from the birds it's funny because i you know again from my experiences i agree there are almost you can use these medicines as a technology to talk to them but at the same time there are the western mind cannot comprehend this i you know uh i still don't fully quite see how that could be um but i think for most people watching this they would just be like wait what you can talk to the trees you can talk to the water it makes me think of that i know a friend who is developing a an artificial intelligence technology to talk to whales he's using it he's training an ai on the sounds of whale song to understand and decode their language Does that resonate with you?

16:45It's almost like that. But ours is not a pair of connection with the spirit.

16:57But it seems. It's very deep that connection with the balea.

17:05Liv Boeree:Yeah, imagine we could use this to talk to whales. Yes, now it is. Could you explain a little bit what the level of technology is currently in your world? Is it not enough? Is it too much? Is it the right amount? And where would you like it to be?

17:42And now we have. We see that it was good to have internet in the village. Because it's also helping us to spread more and more our work in the village. and the work of education, health, forest, and also our culture, even the work of women. We've been able to strengthen all these areas. We've been able to do it very well, and we needed more technology, Like, we have a structured school, and we work and spread medicine more and more in the way of working, how to apply it, and all that. It will also help us to develop spirituality.

18:56Liv Boeree:From what I understand, even the sort of very remote parts of the Amazon where you're from are now under pressures from deforestation, mining and other extractive forces from, you know, people who are not from the Amazon but live close to it. and I can imagine this is starting to change your way of life there in terms of increasing competitive pressures and I mean, can you explain how bad the problem is or am I misinterpreting it? Sim. Well, this case is very concerning, this case of destruction of forest, of the areas of the indigenous land, mainly. Our land is one of the lands that are well on the border, and we have faced these threats We have our native parents, we have our peruans who make the land from the land, the border with our land.

20:14We see all these threats that happen in the world, like the extraction of mines, like soja, the criação of gado, is what's most affected the Amazon forest. And that's why we already destroyed a lot of nature. So every big farm has done, and then there are different kinds of spiritualities ancestral, like medicine. And those, when they grow, plant salt, they don't grow anymore, they just have more medicine, that's the knowledge, and it's done. And with this, it's a concern that we see, we indigenous, in our area, where we revitalize, We have been cultivating and revitalizing all these knowledge, these medicine, these saberes, these curations of nature, of the forest.

21:31We hope we never can be affected by this case. people extrairem soja invading our territory and for us it's a something that's worrying about and we hope that we can be

22:03seen also by the world by the human by the companies, for the ONGs, also that we deserve to revitalize these knowledge that serve not only for us, for us, for us, serve for the world also, for the human being. We can take an example of all these other countries that we have not forest, not medicine, Here, in a country like this, everything was nature, just forest and land. It was the nature of the birds, but the men who came to do this with their power, with their power to destroy land, forest, water, that comes to building all these big cities, these big cities. And as we see here, where there were only forests and animals, we see that there are big cities, these big cities.

23:22There are these little forest that are in the middle of the city, but it's not just like nature, it's a way to be preserved. So, where we see all this forest, this nature, where we are preserved, is in the indigenous areas. We need to recognize the world, that humanity recognize it, that the ONGs, the companies recognize it. So as they have the power of going to destroy, that is going to happen war and other things that are not worth for the humanity, it is also good to look for this indigenous cause. to invest in money support to develop the work in indigenous areas, in every project that there is.

24:27In the medicinal areas, in the musical areas, in the prayers, in spirituality.

24:34Liv Boeree:I can imagine that this deforestation must be creating increased pressures because it used to be a much larger area, the Amazon, you know, the forest than it currently was. And you have presumably many different tribes. I don't know, is it increasing conflict or anything? You know, because I imagine you have fewer resources. There's less food, there's less medicine. How has that been affecting your relationship with other tribes? And with respect to our living life in our territory, in our territory, which is where we are compartilhando our territory with our native parents, who are not in contact, we have a concern now that our population is increasing, and they also are increasing.

25:34and the peruanans are also increasing, they are affecting from there to there, and they are affecting from those native parents, and native parents are coming to us every time. So, it's a concern for us, because we are parents, but they don't have contact with us, and when they have the most fear, they think that we are a white people, they have the most fear and they don't have contact with us. So we are also facing this difficulty, We fish in the river, we fish in the forest, we also find food in the forest, in the river. And with this concern, it's also affecting the community. We have a concern about them being killed and killed women, or killed or killed a child.

26:50and all that happens, we have a big concern.

26:58They are a very brave people, they are also very brave. When we go to the top of the hill, they throw a flash on us. They throw a flash on us, they almost kill me. and we have a big concern, we are very concerned about this. And so I have the idea of working with the health insurance project, that is the economic economic, sustainable, alimentation of the land of the indigenous people, through this conflict, to avoid this confusion with our parents, and also to avoid those peruanes. That's why I'm working with this project. And it's been a great project to work and to continue to show this project to my people.

28:15Liv Boeree:How can people here in the West support this project? I feel like I need support for the cause that I need to strengthen in this project. I need to strengthen the project, to help the project, help in the creation of fish, help in the creation of fish, help in the creation of fish, help in the plant,

29:16Liv Boeree:So, quick commercial break time, it's not. I just want to use this moment where most people would pimp out something that they're the sponsor of their podcast. I'm doing the inverse. I would love to insert a link right here for you guys. If you're enjoying this conversation, to go and check out the preservation projects that they are trying to build for their communities down in the Amazon to help protect them and to also protect the forest from further deforestation, which is way worse than probably anyone realizes. And the thing is, if the rainforests go, we all die. So it is a win-win to help them.

29:53Liv Boeree:So please do go check out this project and consider donating. Cool, back to the conversation. What is your favorite game you like to play? My favorite game is the traditional dances. The dances. The dances and the traditional dances are my favorite. We also play a lot of flash games. The flash games, kachanawá, and physical games, and the traditional dance. We have different dances. different dance. It's the dance of Kachanawá, which we keep in the circus, and dancing and jumping. And there is the dance of Makacheira, which is everyone sitting, one sitting on the other, like, very strong, just as women have made a line and the men will be able to get the dance.

30:52And the women have to We have to hold firm for the women to not get out. And in a great fight, we take the women to get out of the field. And women also get out of the women. They are called the Arrancação de Macaxeira, which is a Madioca. And we also have the Caxim. This is a game that is a lot of people in the village. The women get out of the women with fire. with fire. They make a fight and they go to pray and they go and they compare them as animals. They don't like them, they go with fire to kill them. It's a very interesting sport. There's a game of the cannon, We hold the chair and women take the men and women take the women.

31:54They will compete there. Who will be the champion?

31:59Liv Boeree:Would you describe yourself as a competitive person? Or is there no space for that? Because as one of the spiritual leaders of your community, I'm very interested in the idea of competition. I'm a very competitive person, I always have been, and I want to understand how it manifests in different people. So would you describe yourself as competitive, or is there no space for that as someone whose job it is to be a spiritual leader in your community? Yes, in all my games, I always want to win. I always want to win.

32:42Even in the sports games, I do my effort to win. I want to always win.

32:55Yes.