The Manosphere & Men's Fashion Over 40

0:00Romesh Ranganathan:Hello and welcome to the Wolf and Al email special. I'm trying to introduce it more quietly. You're doing a wonderful job. Please could you like and subscribe and follow us wherever you get your podcasts as well as the fact that this drops on the old YouTube. YouTube. YouTube. Watching as you listen and listening as you watch.

0:35Romesh Ranganathan:this is an email special we're going to be interacting with listeners emails and there's no videos are there today but we were asking for videos aren't we still no videos still yeah i just think that puts a bit more pressure so i don't feel like you have to send a video even if it's just you doing a wacky impression you know when you get you know when like on your phone when they go can you just do a quick question to the Olympics team I have to do that seven takes minimum I'm not that for anything that I do on socials I think you should kick off you're the best one at reading so it's a beautiful thing for you to Dear Wolf Alcatswan and the Squirrel this email has been sitting in my draft since Ramesh's special was released last year on Sky every time I rewrite it it becomes an essay when really all I want to do is tell you both how much I love the podcast and send you a silly little comic I drew of Ramesh after watching his hustle special oh wow after watching it I drew this comic depicting a routine that left me teary with laughter but also left me feeling vindicated reassured and seen is this my standard it can't be at the time I was working at a place that was slowly crushing me with each shift not really knowing which direction I wanted to go career wise but watching your special was a reminder I needed that the job didn't fucking matter I don't want this to be my legacy I was reminded it was okay to turn up do the bare minimum and leave it at the top and I did that until I found something different I'm now working somewhere I enjoy with people of supportive kind and become real friends.

1:51Romesh Ranganathan:Oh my God. This is lovely. This is nice. You're both making a difference even if sometimes you don't believe it. That's wonderful isn't it? Should we see the comic? Yes have a look at the comic. This is exciting. Wow. Oh God. So it's actually literally a comic of my stand up. If you're lucky enough to be doing a job you love oh God this is actually my routine. If you're lucky enough you're doing the job of your dreams then sure work as hard as you possibly can but if you're not pause he's done the eye workers he's been really good not to do the eye and then he's gone for the eye but actually do you know what some people overdo the eye in cartoons and he's actually he's done it just right hasn't he so there you go we're being presumptuous we think this is a hey it could be a she that's true actually that's a good point thank you so much for you that's so lovely that is amazing by the way his artist his drawing is incredible well you've made an assumption yeah okay there sorry there yeah the tom tit okay again nothing given away That's really sweet, isn't it?

2:49Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, it's very nice. Thanks, Tom Tit. It's really nice. You know, you sort of don't think that your stand-up's going to... I mean, I'm not saying that Tom Tit got a new job because of my stand-up. Well, it sounds like you did. Or she. Or she. It sounded like they did. It's what's beautiful is they've left there and something you've said has had such an everlasting... It's really nice. It resonated with them. It's really nice. Do you get proud of your stand-up? My stand-up? No. Oh, yeah. Look, I'm actually being very... I think with stand-up, I'm always in a place that it could be better. and I can need to push myself harder and harder, which is actually quite a negative way in what they're talking about and watching you on stand up.

3:24I think, you know, then talking to you is a different thing. But no, because you're very hard on yourself too. And I'm by nature very hard on myself.

3:31Romesh Ranganathan:Because everything I've done is average. No, no, no. Subpar. Mediocre. Getting away with it. Pilot high, sell it cheap. Welcome to the wolf and owl. I don't think that's true. I think you're being very... No, no, but the truth, I am being a prick. I'm deliberately being a prick there. but I do think like you know I remember you saying me saying this was quite depressing but I do I do love doing stand up it's my favourite thing to do but every time I do a stand up show I think that wasn't the one yeah but can I just say and this is the thing and what they're saying here and I said this about your last special and I think I've said it to you and I've talked about this on other podcasts when I saw that special I actually thought like that's you're getting to a level where you are saying stuff that isn't just funny that has also a meaning yeah and that's what that routine you're right it isn't funny No, it was really funny.

4:18No, I'm joking. But what I'm saying is someone's taken that, laughed at it, thought it was amazing, but actually it's changed how they thought about life. Yeah. That's where stand-up's incredible. I don't think that's necessarily going to happen with me comparing myself to Tyson Fury as a boxer. And so my point is, and that's what I've now gone, I try with my show, is how do you make something different? How do you talk about something, make it funny, but it also resonates and actually has a meaning?

4:44Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. It doesn't have to, though. No, it doesn't have to, but it's good. It's an incredible thing when you watch, like yourself, and people are, you know, Kev does it a lot, and then you see, you know, obviously the best at it, Chappelle, Rock, whatever. I mean, I know Chappelle's become slightly controversial because of the trans stuff. When, I didn't, I didn't know if you watched his last special. Yeah, I did, yeah. It's not as funny a special, I wouldn't say. No. But there is something about him. Yeah. Like, when he talks, you do want to listen, and he's just got this kind of thought-provoking, his way of you know I think like really good comedians they open up a door and go this is how I see the world and you definitely get that with Chappelle yeah I feel like it's kind of magic I actually think like now it's a shame that all the stand up you see online and I'm not criticising anybody that does this but it's all fucking crowd work because you sort of think about the best stand up it's a different medium though that is I know but the problem I actually think it's damaging I actually feel quite strongly about this I get why individuals are doing it i do get it and and actually i respect it because you and i are both talking as people who are privileged enough to have tv commissioners and broadcasters pick us up and put on their on their things right so if you're not if you don't have that that level of luck or privilege or being in the right place at the right time you've then got to think to yourself how do i get myself out there and online is the way right and the appetite for it is is voracious so you've got to keep putting stuff up writing stand-up is difficult so crowd work is the easiest thing to generate yeah the problem is is if you're a punter who doesn't really know about stand-up and you look up stand-up comedy online all you're seeing is is stand-up comedians ripping the shit out of like some guy in the front row whatever and then you're obviously going to think that's all it is and you then you think about the really great routines like i sort of think about you know fucking everything from like richard pryor talking about his grandma flushing his coat down the or or him flushing his coat down the top.

6:41Romesh Ranganathan:Those things are crafted and beautiful and amazing. And I think that's a shame. But my thing is, though, when I say the different mediums, in the sense that I think that the specials in which you watch and you sit and you're going to watch a special, and you talk about Chappelle or when Bill Burr dropped his last one or whatever, and you're sitting and watching that as an hour. I sit and I go, that's an hour of comedy I'm going to sit and watch. That's a different thing from sitting there. And like you said, there's some people out there now, who like you know it's dog eat dog and they've got to get noticed as people are sending out arenas on the basis of crowd work and shout out to them because they're doing what they've got to do and i respect it it's a different it's a massively different thing to go like that's my special of what is routines and tight work routines and and maybe it'll be an evolution for that person when they go i personally i find crowd work really difficult because i find at times like walking the line of, and also I try to constantly, I might do new material based on the place that I'm at, like, you know, this, I'm at this place.

7:43So I have a few jokes about that area. I have a bit of a laugh about that area, but I find having too much crowd work starts. I did it the other night. I ended up chatting to someone and it completely just took the, took the whole act down. It's a show. It's a very different thing. When I got into comedy, it was like stand up. It was like the people I wanted to be like told stories that had jokes, that had routines. That was always what I've tried to be. And it's a very different thing. And I think that, you know, but I also then think the game is changing. You have to release more. So you have to show more stuff.

8:17It's like, yeah, you, but we're now in a situation. If you have got material, you kind of got to burn it before the tour's even gone out. Because actually once the special's out, you're like, you're onto the next thing and the next thing after that.

8:29Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. But I also think with your special and my special, I've heard it very hard to then cut out clips from that special with callbacks or whatever you're doing. Mine's such an intricate web. It's like Game of Thrones. To sort of select one little 30-second observation and put it out there is disgusting. You know? What are we doing? Chopping art into little pieces and throwing it to the fucking pigeons. You should do it like one of those little minute-long things, the dramas that the Chinese people are doing. They, like, you put out a clip. Yeah. It's just so... Can I say, by the way, but me and you, we're like dinosaurs now.

9:09It's the basis that we think too much about because we've been conditioned in a world where we've thought about and we've written stuff and we've made stuff. The world has changed. And actually, people...

9:19Romesh Ranganathan:Just shit it out. Yeah, but that is true. Just shit it out. Quantity over quality, my friend. Absolutely. People just put out any other stuff. And that's coming from me, Mr. 22 TV Shows.

9:32Okay, should we do the next one? Talking of TV shows, you've actually been quite entwined in it. I'm just looking over here and I can see what it's about.

9:38Romesh Ranganathan:Well, we're about to talk about Inside the Manosphere. How am I fucking entwined? No, no, no, no. But your interview with Louis Theroux, I think actually is one of the best interviews I've seen in a long, long time. I thought it was fucking fascinating and brilliant. Oh, thanks, my G. I was talking about it with some people. I was up in Glasgow. What people? Sort of influential people? Yeah. Industry people? No, no, no. I was out with Ed Matthews and HS Tik Toki for a couple of bits. No, it's Tom David. No, he's not a pedo. I didn't say that. I knew you. Hi, gents. I'm currently struggling to sleep after watching Louis through inside the Manosphere.

10:07It's honestly left me raging in this one and a half hour doc, Louis follows male influence who preach sexism, racism, homophobia, and more. The fact that these absolute morons have enough of a platform to profit with their garbage is one thing. But the fact that so many young lads are being drawn in towards their content is terrifying on the other hand i've listened to your podcast for a long time and couldn't be in more admiration you're both the sort of gents young men should be looking up to your promoting of love equality morality will be making a huge difference my question is as guys how do we best promote the right messages for young lads and what what can we do best to undermine stupidity coming from these podcast pillocks thank you uh for all you do the uneasy

10:47Romesh Ranganathan:eagle uh thank you for your message uneasy eagle yeah uh have you watched inside the manister yes I have yeah okay what's your take I think firstly it's it's um I mean it's nothing more different really than snake or salesman right that's at the heart of everything is a money-making scheme and then trying to make money I think that I think that the worry I think the worrying thing for me one of the biggest things I was aware of these people for quite some time because of what we do for a living and you're on social media so you see these these people out there and what they're doing and also weirdly have seen the evolution of it just from, you know, from clips where you go, okay, they've started with, you know, pranks and about, and then it's becomes a little bit more dark and a little bit more, uh, you know, uh, it has that edge, but what, what actually I thought was more worrying than everything and credit to you and Louis when you were chatting and Louis through it and the documentary in general, is that how many people were completely unaware of it.

11:45I think the first thing that that signals to me is, how many people I talk to who have got children who had no idea that this was happening. And to bring something like that mainstream so more people are talking about it, I think is a conversation that's worth having. I think there's also a side of this which is also very much like it feeds into something that is generationally, and going back a long time, the fact that how many people are lost and looking for answers. and actually when I was watching that as a documentary and now sitting here as a 46 year old man who has been for a lot of different things in my life and everything but actually the way that that is done and the way they speak out to each other speak to people who are lost people who have sort of society has cast aside or people who haven't got any hope or haven't got anyone anyone who's people who are looking for to find their place in life the fact that they pick on a vulnerability of a person and and i look at it and go wow actually you know what in my younger years when you know having you know being the person i was in the life i was i would i have been susceptible to that i've had to ask you have to ask a question because you know if you're not seen or you're you know there's you know there's an element of it that is reaching it's very very cleverly planned out it's very cleverly mapped um so i actually weirdly think in your email the thing of, I think when you hear certain people talk about people call them stupid or whatever, then I think there are a lot of things.

13:16I don't think they're that. I think they're very manipulative. I think they're, and I think hopefully what this has done now is shown more of a light on what they're doing and how they're working. And actually, I think what we should be doing as society here is not, is working out why this has happened rather than, you know, being aggressively judgmental or it's just like work out what has gone wrong. if you look at someone like hsttok you went to a private school what is the situation he's found himself in this and and also people are searching out for answers from him people are then trying to beat him into a place to go what you know what you know you shouldn't do this you shouldn't feel like that the thing i think we should try to be doing is going how do we rectify the situation this isn't a problem in the future and how is this this this becomes less of a thing that happens and And it raises a lot of questions as to, like I say, forgotten people.

14:08People aren't doing well at school. People aren't particularly, haven't got good jobs. And that is a thing that has been coming down the pipe for quite some time. And I think societally, we have to get together and go, right, this is an awful part of society. This is an awful thing that we've kind of let happen. We've let it grow very slowly and manufacture itself into what is now a multi-million pound business. that is not only, you know, taking money from young men, but it's also giving them a moral compass that is completely wavered in the wrong direction. So I just think, yeah, as scary as it was, and it was a horrible thing to watch, I think everyone should have to sit and watch it.

14:46And then I think instead of aggressively shouting at these men, I think we should go, right, how do we come together and how do we try to resolve this in a way that this isn't going to be something that we're dealing with in 10, 20 years?

15:02Romesh Ranganathan:really well put beautiful, eloquent I thought you displayed a level of attractiveness that I admired as you were delivering all that really really nice I didn't really feel angry watching it I've got three boys and I'm fortunate enough that they think these people are knobs basically but it might not have been like that they might not have done but I was sort of thinking about why our boys don't aren't looking up to those guys and you sort of look at the people that Louis was chatting to in that documentary and they're all pretty disenfranchised and they're all like you know they feel disconnected and that's often where people like these sort of influencers is often where they can profit is by picking up those people that have sort of fallen through the cracks they feel like they've been let down etc etc and so that these people put an arm around them and go, hey, man, you're supposed to be a fucking hero.

16:01Romesh Ranganathan:And these people are, you know, these people are letting you down and all this shit. And I think that the truth of it is, is I wouldn't advocate a ban on these sort of people personally. I think, you know, if they want to say those things, they want to say those things. If you're asking me, I mean, first of all, I don't think Tom and I are role models and I don't think we should be. No, no. I don't think. But it's very kind words. But I think what you need to do in order to combat those sort of people is to try and stop those people falling through the cracks. And, you know, a lot of the time, you know, people, it's young men that are falling victim, for want of a better phrase, to these influencers.

16:46Romesh Ranganathan:and I think you want to make sure that they feel supported enough and you instill them with enough of the right attitudes that they are able to reject those kind of ways of thinking about women and queer people and minorities and all of those kind of things. I think that it's about instilling enough of those values. It's the same way when you're sending your kids off into the world. they are going to face horrible shit yeah and what you've got to do is you know i think about the fact that you know my parents i was never under any doubt that my parents loved me but i got some shit and i've you know you get involved in some horrible stuff that's the thing like that you're in this email they're talking about me and you talking now and like you said we're not role models but if i look back and think of me in my 20s and the you know person i was trying to work out who I was you know were you susceptible to people who were like you know alphas and people who almost fought against the system yeah you come up against them so so you so you and also I don't think I was ever strong enough back there as a character to fight back against that so probably was more of a sheep than I would be now as a 46 year old man who's been through quite a lot in my life and but had to make some mistakes had to have things in my life that didn't go right I had to be put in situations where I was vulnerable or that those people would let me down.

18:10And I think that's the thing, exactly what you're saying. But I think it's a really easy thing to sit here as two men at the age we are who are old. It's very easy then to just cast a judgment to people who are in their mid to late 20s. Also, by the way, I think in that, I think they said some abhorrent stuff about homosexuality, sexism, racism, but there are also an element of it that it's just for clicks. And that's the other thing that we've all built in this situation.

18:41Romesh Ranganathan:But I do think like, it's like Theo, my eldest, he knows that it's just for clicks. Yeah. So he sort of sees it as like they're just chatting in the old shit to get some attention. Yeah, of course. And he doesn't see them as relevant. But that I think is, I'm not saying that I'm, you know, I'm not saying I'm a great parent, I'm not, but I think Lisa's a great mum but I think that is because Theo has been talked to about positive attitudes towards these people and for all of his life and he's got those morals and values and stuff instilled in him so that he's able to take he's got a degree of separation between himself and what he's watching and not everybody has that and in answer to your question I think it's about reaching out to young lads and making them feel part of something and making them feel valued because when we let them down as a society, I know that sounds a bit worthy, that is when they'll head in that direction.

19:38Romesh Ranganathan:That's when they'll gravitate towards these people. So, yeah, I mean, look, the answer is I don't have the answer. But, you know, I'm just sick of men being fucking held down. You know, all we want to do is fucking eat a sandwich. Am I right?

19:55Romesh Ranganathan:Hello, Tom and Rom. Sorry for the lack of animal intro, but I can't think of an animal for myself so I thought I'd go old school on the names. Anyway, the last few pods you've spoken about style choices in midlife. I'm 48, of a similar age to you both. With the 90s being my most important years for fashion, my style hasn't changed much. Baggy jeans. I mean, that's very, very on trend. Did I say that out loud? It's very eggy, friend. It was very eggy. And a bit of skate trainer porn with a carefully selected t-shirt or vintage buttoned up shirt. I love this. Oh, that's a good look. I live in a sea of skinny jeans and poor skater trainer choices for years and now all of a sudden the kids are dressing like it's the 90s and I've got the choice of stuff I want.

20:32Romesh Ranganathan:But, I unfortunately look like I'm going through a midlife crisis and keeping up with the kids. Not really asking advice but wanted to show solidarity in your pain of approaching 50 fashion. I say stay strong brothers. We own that shit first and you both look sharp. Love and peas. Ben. Do you know what? I want to, well you go first actually. Well I think number one is, I think. Fuck the haters man. But I also think there's a great in Instagram where a guy does a thing where he's like you shouldn't wear this in your 40s and then he wears it and he's like who the fuck who makes that choice but I think there's I also like to Ben's point I got sucked into the skinny jeans thing far too much far too much embarrassingly so and now actually weirdly whatever the fashion is I feel like I've now actually come to okay this is something the clothes in which I wear I'm very comfortable in.

21:29I think I care less about people going, are you trying to not your age or whatever? I'm kind of just, I found, I navigated into a place where I actually felt, probably for the first time in my life, actually, this works okay for me. Skinny jeans was the worst thing, especially also I was probably about seven stone heavier than I am now in a pair of skinny jeans with a big muffin top. It was, yeah.

21:56Romesh Ranganathan:I loved it. I look back at some of those looks but I think you should just do it and I say this to you brother yeah I genuinely do think if you just own it whatever you want to wear just wear it you're looking drippy as you're looking drippy as can be boy thanks you've got a level of drip like the baggy jumpers look that you were wearing the other day wow very nice, sexy but what I would say is I think you just pick your look own it actually part of it is the way you carry it off most people don't give a shit what you're wearing anyway so just wear what you like no my mum I remember my mum saying to me when I was younger and I was going out for a night and she went no one's looking at you anyway which was pretty much indicative of my smile for you that doesn't feel I don't think that's I mean I don't know how with the tone in which it was delivered but that doesn't sound that positive no no no but it was in a sweeter way than that I'm probably being near harsh but I think, yeah, just run your course, baby.

22:56Run your course, baby. Look how you want to look. Do what you want, wear what you want. Can I say? I might wear a skirt on the next episode. I feel like the same, but John, our guy John, the producer John, he's got a look, man. I look at his look, it's a good look. He's almost certainly got, he's definitely got a look. Yeah, but I look at John, he wears a look well. He's got a look, yeah, he's got a look. He's gone, you know what, I stick on this. Yeah, I don't give a fuck. This is my line in the sand. I don't care. This is what John is doing. Yeah. I don't care if tradition was fake. How old are you, John?

23:2434.

23:25Romesh Ranganathan:34. Why are we even talking to John? I'm just saying at 34, I was... He's fucking 13 years younger than us. What he doesn't need. He's not thinking, I hope these two old c*** give me validation. He doesn't give a s***. No, but I'm saying when I was John's age, I was wearing like, yeah, skinny jeans. Yeah. Vest tops. You weren't wearing vest tops. No. I think I had a vest top. I went for a vest top with a shirt over it, face. yeah studded caps I had so many Von Dutch caps do you remember I did yeah and then overnight it just went out of fashion yeah just dead yeah well I went past the Von Dutch shop the other day yeah it's coming back is it though yeah it's coming back if you held on to that Von Dutch stuff dust off the old camo cap anyway that's all we've got time for on the Wolf and Owl email special please do email in wolfowlpod at gmail.com remember to like and subscribe if you want to send videos you can if you want to send a voice note you can picture picture you can comic we had our first comic yeah we had our first comic that comic will be released and it will be out on our Instagram page that is the Wolf and Out we haven't got permission to do that or anything alright well if he gives us permission if they give us permission get back in touch yeah we'll see you next time motherfuckers keep well

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