ReThinking: Malala Yousafzai on redefining resilience and prioritizing joy

0:00It would be easy for people to assume that you're spending all your time just trying to save the world. And I think one of the things you've done for a lot of people is you've role modeled. It's actually okay to take risks and try things that might be frivolous. Yeah, I mean, I do want to clarify. I'm not recommending everybody climbs a rooftop. Like, that's not the point. Imagine like, oh, Malala inspired me. Doing what? Study? No. Climb rooftop.

0:28Hey, everyone. It's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

0:46My guest today is Malala, activist for girls' education and women's empowerment, and the youngest Nobel Peace Laureate in history. I've known her for over a decade, so I wanted to bring you a more personal look at how her life has evolved. Malala became a public figure when she was still a child. and her new book, Finding My Way, is her effort to take control of her own story again. We talk about how she navigated sudden fame so young, why she changed her mind about marriage, her struggles with saying no, and her thoughts on a shared interest of ours, magic.

1:22This has been my childhood dream, to be able to do magic tricks. It just amazes me that you can make people believe in magic. I love the feeling when you know that something is impossible has happened. So yeah, I love card tricks. Card tricks are really impressive. In all the time we've spent together, how have we never done card tricks? They're my favorite too. I know, but I'm under a lot of pressure when I'm with you because I know you will know what trick I used. You'll question too many things. So no, I need to better prepare myself. I look forward to our own magic camp, which will be the nerdiest thing you've ever done.

2:02So there's something that's puzzled me for a long time, Malala, about your life. On the one hand, you won a Nobel Peace Prize. On the other hand, you fight with your brothers. What's that about? Yeah, I mean, I have two younger brothers. And it was, you know, when we were still young. Now, you know, now the dynamic is quite different because they're also older now. I thought you were anti-violence, though. So like I remember, they were at the time like 11, you know, 13. They expressed their love in different ways. And sometimes they believe that to annoy your sister is a form of expressing your love.

2:38I disagree with that, but that's what they say. Why do you disagree with that? I think we should cause less trouble and do not annoy people. As simple as that. I'm sure you would agree on that. I don't know. You know, there's the term in psychology that I think describes what they're trying to do. It's called pro-social teasing. where you might poke fun at someone that you really love as a sign of endearment, or you might purposely get under their skin because you enjoy getting a reaction out of them. And you know you can only do that with people that you're really close to or truly love. And so you reserve that for your most important relationships.

3:15I like it. I'm guilty of it from time to time. Change my mind. Tell me why I shouldn't be. I think there is a threshold for it. I think as a sister, like I give enough signs to my brothers to let them know that like enough. And sometimes they just don't understand. All right. I could get on board with that. So you're okay with pro-social teasing as long as they stop when you tell them you've had enough. Yeah. Like three times enough. Okay. No more than that. Fair. So let's talk about your new book, Finding My Way. I thought it was a very powerful way of reclaiming your narrative in some ways, because I think the world got to know you when you were a kid.

4:01And I'd love to talk a little bit about sort of what reflection you saw in the mirror and how you wanted to change it. I remember the first time I was profiled on a much smaller scale. My editor told me that anytime the media covers you, it's like looking at yourself through a funhouse mirror. did that capture your experience? I had a few challenges. One was the fact that I became this public figure at a very young age. And when you are still a teenager, you do not know who you are and what you want to be. So to get this recognition at a young age affects that process of growth for you, the process of learning for you about yourself, about who you are as a person.

4:45And then at the same time, you know, when I was attacked and I was still in the hospital in coma, I was receiving this global recognition and I was getting titles like, you know, being the bravest girl, the most courageous girl. But I did not know what that actually meant. And I somehow thought maybe because of this incredible place that I'm in right now, I have survived and now I can advocate for girls globally. This might mean that I have now a responsibility to live up to this recognition. So in the middle of all of that, I just lost that sense of childhood. And I also lost this right to define myself.

5:30And it was in these later years in my life that I got an opportunity to reclaim how I wanted to be and redefine myself. So what did you want to redefine? I think this is not an easy question to answer because I had to write a whole book about this. In this book, I am sharing my journey. You cannot explain it in one sentence. It is your everyday life that you are trying to find out who you are. And I remember when I was joining university, so I got admission into Oxford. I received an email from our college principal saying that he wants to send out an email to all the new students to mention that I will be in college and that they need to maintain their distance and respect my privacy.

6:25like I froze I said no no please don't do that because this is what had happened in school as well so when you know I was brought to the UK for my medical treatment after the attack I joined a new school here and you know the students just did not know how to approach me I was unaware of this like new culture there was the language barrier so many things and I just did not want all of that to be repeated in university as well so university was that new starting point for me. I was so glad that the principal did not send any email to anybody. And I remember like I was walking like any other student in that freshers week, the opening week, and I was bumping into people.

7:09I was saying hello, asking them their name, what degree they were studying, which college they were at. And that's how I met so many incredible people. And I got an opportunity to introduce myself as a student. And you sort of, you know, you find the right people. I assume all you wanted was to be treated like a regular college student. That was my whole plan for college. Of course, I am passionate about studies as well, and I do advocate for education. But college was a time when I thought that I need to think about learning outside textbooks. And I remember in the early months at college, I was sitting in the library, looking outside the window, just seeing these friends chatting with each other, giggling, laughing.

7:55And I looked at my textbook and I said, I can read this anytime. I can come back to this. But the moments I can have with these friends, I will treasure forever. I want to be in the gardens. I want us to talk about love life and just gossip about things, just complain about the academic pressure. So I closed my book and ran off and spent time with my friends. But this was my life. Then every week I would have essay crisis and, you know, somehow I'd be really frustrated with myself that, you know, why did I end up going to all of those events? And why was I going to every dinner, every speaker's event, every Diwali or Eid party?

8:40but you know in sort of in the middle of the night when I'm figuring out how to finish an essay that's supposed to take me a whole week in just five hours and submit it by like 8 a.m in the morning at the same time I would feel that it was worth it because I do not feel alone I have so many friends and they are giving me these memories that I will treasure with me forever. That's great to hear. It seems like ever since that experience of wanting to be a normal college student, you have made a strong effort to try to show the world that you are a regular person and you live a somewhat normal life despite the extraordinary impact you've had in the world and the unusual experiences that you've had.

9:26And I think one of my favorite demonstrations of this was maybe the best Instagram post I've ever seen when you posted about the Barbie movie. I have to ask you about that. So I took my husband, we watched Barbie movie and in the cinema, there was just like, you know, the Barbie doll box and you go inside and you take a photo. So yeah, we took a photo. Then I posted it on Twitter and Instagram and I said, this Barbie has a Nobel prize. He's just Ken, so. How did Asr feel about that? Does he feel like he's Kenaf? Yeah, I think he claimed that title with pride. That cracked me up. It was so funny.

10:08So clever. Okay, so let's go back to you and your evolution. I think one of the big themes in the book is you, on the one hand, you know, want to enjoy your life as a 20-something. and on the other hand, you have this tremendous sense of responsibility and pressure. How did you deal with it early on and how has it changed over time? I would say that early on, when I was starting my new journey of activism in a new country after the attack, I had accepted this external expectation. and I thought like I'm supposed to live how people expect me to live and it meant like sacrificing on small things so in school I remember that you know I would sit quietly you know in the corner I wasn't talking much because I just didn't I just thought nobody wanted to talk to me so that's how I felt that I did not even have a choice that it just happened because of the circumstances so it's really hard to process with that so I thought okay like you If you become an activist for a cause you believe in and people are telling you, yes, you are somehow the change maker, well, that means you cannot have any friends.

11:30That means you will not be loved. You cannot find love. And you cannot expect a normal life like marriage or family, friendships, going on a holiday, talking about anything other than work is not going to be your life. So like in college, when I was experiencing some of these things for the first time, my college friends were so shocked when they were finally understanding that I like had never hung out with friends and heard like swear words. That I had that like I had never heard people talk about boys and and, you know, where they were last night and what happened last night. And so in college, I was like, nobody's watching me.

12:16It's just me and me and me. So why not try a few things? And even though I wanted a normal life in college, I felt it became a bit too normal, you know, a bit more than normal. So what do you mean too normal? Like I, there was a point when I realized that I was doing more than what my normal friends were doing. So I remember one day in college, I see this mysterious student and he tells me about rooftop climbing. And I said, wait a second, there's a whole thing going on in college and like students who get in trouble do it. I want to do this too. My friends were rolling their eyes and they were a bit concerned, but I said, who cares?

13:01This is one opportunity. So my friend and I at midnight joined that stranger. She stepped back, actually. She said, you know what, I don't want to get in trouble. And I said, well, I think I'm going to take the risk. And this is a very risky journey to make it to the rooftop because you make it to this small room on the fourth floor. Then you sneak out through the window. There is this narrow pathway that takes you to the roof, but there's like many, many steps to it. And on this narrow path, you can only put like one foot at a time. That's how narrow it is. and one misstep, you would fall from a four-story building.

13:40Like your life is at risk. And you have to like take this jump to make it to the next part of the roof. And quite a big jump. Somehow I made it through the journey and I remember sitting on the rooftop under the bell tower, looking down at the college building, looking at these rooms. Some lights were still on and I was wondering what the students were doing. And I was just breathing in this air of peace around me. And in that moment, I just felt a sense of accomplishment that I cannot describe to anybody. I thought that I had overcome something, that I could do what I wanted to do. And it's hard to explain to somebody like, oh, like rooftop climbing is my mission.

14:23Like, no, it's not my mission. But it felt like I was living my life and I did not feel that I was limited, I was restricted, that I could be myself. I think it would be easy for people to assume that you're spending all your time just trying to save the world. And I think one of the things you've done for a lot of people is you've role modeled, it's actually okay to take risks and have fun and try things that might be frivolous. And you might fall flat on your face. And that's entirely fine. So talk to me about the decision to learn to ski and ride a bike. I think it's really important for all of us to try new things.

15:05And for me, it was really important. If somebody had asked me two or three years ago what my favorite activity was, I would have said sitting. I would always just be finding a spot to sit down. That's how inactive I had become. When I married my husband, who is a very active person because he comes from the sports world, especially cricket. But then I was introduced to all of these different sports, including skiing and golf and paddle tennis, gym, like running. I go to gym more passionately than him now. Everything has changed. I was under the assumption that I was just somehow not capable of doing any of these things, that I could not run, that I could not lift weight, that I could never do golf or ski.

15:53And once you give it a try, you know you can. And it has just completely changed my perspective. I think there's a very powerful message for girls and women out there, especially because we are oftentimes told that certain things are not for us. We are not capable. And that's why we never give it a try. What I have learned from my experience so far is that give it a try. You might be the best at it. You never know. I love that. I also am reminded of some research that speaks to what happens when people take on a hobby outside of work and they're able to master it. They actually get a confidence boost in their job because the experience of learning a skill, even if it's just for fun, reminds them of what they're capable of.

16:38So I guess I wonder, was there a spillover effect? Did you find that as you learned to ski or figured out that you could lift weights and run, did you find yourself navigating your work differently? 100%. And when I started looking after myself and when I started focusing on my physical and mental health, I realized that I was doing better in my work as well. I was not of this view before. I thought that it was a sacrifice you had to make to be more responsible in your commitment to a cause. and when I started like looking after my physical health, go to the gym, go for a walk, run, play golf, learn something new, do a new activity, just go for a dinner with friends, I realized that I was in a much better shape.

17:28I felt fresher. I felt healthier. I felt more focused. So the time that I was giving to work, you know, is now like even more productive. I feel like I can get more done than before. So it's like the complete opposite than what you expect. I think it's part of the work. Like we need to just change our approach and see it as part of the work. I think so too. I think so many people look at exercise and hobbies as a distraction or a diversion, but they're actually great sources of energy and confidence. Yeah, for sure.

18:08One of the things that I think many people around the world look up to you for is your resilience. The way that you've faced adversity that most of us can't even imagine in our lives and come out of those experiences stronger. And I'd love to know, what have you learned about building resilience? I would rephrase that question because I do not think that out of all of the tragedies and the circumstances that I faced, that I came out as a resilient and strong and brave person. This is like what I thought I was supposed to be. And I thought, you know, that I had recovered from a bullet injury. I have done all of my surgeries.

18:52Like this is it. This is what recovery means. But it was seven, eight years later in college that I started getting flashbacks and panic attacks. It was not something that I could just like undo in a day, you know, to say, okay, like one panic attack and now I'm going to be the normal person. No, like true bravery and courage is when you still get up, even when you feel scared, even when you feel there's not much you could do or you feel hopeless, but you still get up and you go out and you do it. So I have tried to redefine bravery and courage for me, because in those moments when I was going through the mental health challenges, the trauma, all of these feelings, I somehow felt that I was losing this battle of resilience, that I could still stand up to the Taliban.

19:48but why would small things like the word murder or killing trigger me and and I you know I could have like you know like my heart would be beating fast and I would be like sweating and I just could not concentrate and I you know I could not sleep at night and and like why was I going through these different panic attacks and it's just to say that you cannot fully control your mind and you just do not know when a trauma can affect you. So now for me, it is looking after myself, prioritizing my physical and mental health, getting therapy. It has now become part of my life. And I would now call this the true resilience when despite all of that you go through, you are still on the journey working for the mission that you believe in.

20:40Wow. This is something so many people misunderstand about resilience. It's also something I got wrong about resilience. Resilience is not about the speed of your recovery. It's about the strength of your resolve. Such an important message. So one of the things you write about in the book, and it was one of my favorite parts of the book, this traces back to the transformation you were talking about that you went through at Oxford. In college, you thought you might never get married, or at least you were afraid of getting married. Why? I was afraid of getting married because I thought marriage means compromises for women.

21:18And growing up, I had seen many girls lose their future and their education because they were forced into marriages. Child marriage is a reality for millions of girls every year around the world. And at the same time, like the more you understand your rights, and your financial empowerment and your independence, you become more aware of how these institutions have historically taken from women rather than giving to women. And in the middle of it, I thought as an activist for women's empowerment and for girls' education, somehow that I might be giving up to an institution that has been historically patriarchal, that somehow that I was failing or like, you know, that I'm sort of like submitting to something.

22:10So I thought, you know what, another person in your life, marriage as a whole, the best approach might be to just never get married, just never have the problem. You never have to think about it. So this was my approach in college. Why did you change your mind? I changed my mind about marriage because I fell in love with a guy. and then I was so confused I was I was stuck between this dilemma of wanting to be with this person forever because I could not imagine my life without them I I loved Asar he was the right person for me he was good looking he was charming he was kind he was funny he would laugh at my jokes like what else could I have wanted I thought he was he was the right one and such a secure person.

22:59Like he, I don't know, I thought he was just like a unicorn. And so I wanted to be with him. But then at the same time, I knew that in our culture, like you could not just be, you know, living with a person, you have to be married to be living with them. So it's like part of our Pakistani culture is part of the Islamic culture as well. And you have to get your parents approval. So then this like whole new journey started for me where it was a bit of a battle to convince my mom. And also at the same time, like I was trying to understand, you know, like that I want to live with him, but what does that mean for my identity as a women's rights activist if I finally accept the institution of marriage?

23:46Wow. Okay. I need to interrogate your description of Aser for a second, because when you described all the things he had going for him, the first thing you said was, Not that he was kind, but that he was good looking. Malala, I would never have expected you to be that superficial. You know, there are a lot of kind people, but, you know, just kidding. I think it's important. It's important that you have affection for each other. For me, kindness is one of those things, but also good looks, a good smile. Okay, the other thing that jumped out at me is you reversed the common gender stereotype when you were talking about sense of humor.

24:26So in the research on how men and women think about sense of humor in relationships, you see this pattern that I think is really sad. Okay. Which is when men say they want a sense of humor in a woman, they're looking for a woman who laughs at their jokes. And when women look for a sense of humor in a man, they're looking for a man who makes them laugh. And I love that you flipped that and you said, he's funny. And by that, I mean, he laughs at my jokes. Yeah. No, this is true. I laugh at his jokes as well. I think it can be both ways. I think, and it should be both ways. But I believe that he finds me funny and he laughs at my jokes.

25:08I've seen it, definitely. But everyone laughs at your jokes. Oh, thank you. So I feel like you might have missed a calling as a stand-up comedian, but I think the path that you've landed on is pretty meaningful. Never too late. Never too late. Would you do stand-up? Once I'm done with the book, who knows? You know, it could be that I become a magician or I become a stand-up comedian. Oh, I can't wait for the Malala Magic Comedy Show. Yes. And, you know, who knows? I might take over the Rethinking Podcast by Adam Grant. Who knows? You're welcome anytime. Thank you. Okay, so let's go back then to this marriage dilemma.

25:47Why were your parents skeptical and why did you push forward anyway? I think on my parents' side, it was just completely unexpected that I introduced a guy. This was now like a love marriage situation. So they were worried that they did not know this guy yet. So my parents really wanted to know them. But then on my mom's side, I understand her concerns a bit more. Her own childhood was very different. She understood marriage in a different way. My mom didn't go to school. And in her community, a lot of most of the women, to be honest, every woman there could not complete their education. So for my mom, like marriage was a sense of security where they thought that if they find the right guy who is respectful and kind and, you know, ensures that you have a good time, like that's a blessing, like be grateful for it.

26:43So for my mom, marriage is a sense of security for women. But then she was like that I should get married according to her preferences. So I was like, okay, mom, we can agree on part of it, but then we disagree on the other part of it. Wow. So she expected you to agree to an arranged marriage? I wouldn't say that she said that, but yes, like that's what it appeared to be. When they're like rejecting the proposal that you are bringing. So, yeah. And what was it that made you want to push for this? Because you articulated really clearly why you thought marriage was a problematic institution. What led to that change of heart?

27:22My view on marriage for myself changed with time a bit because I realized that some of these institutions have a whole history of patriarchy, but we ourselves are also redefining them. and in the end it's this mutual agreement between the two people who decide to live together and when they are both in agreement and on good terms like you can break down the expectations and the barriers that are unfair to women so Asar was the right person I mean like we both can talk about anything I realized that he was actually more open-minded than me because in this whole like pre-marriage period, I would sometimes send him these silly questions at midnight and ask him on WhatsApp, what is your opinion about four marriages in the Islamic context?

28:18And he would just send a funny reply like, oh, I think I'm getting four personalities in you already. Why would I have a second wife? Or sometimes I would say, what if your wife is earning more than you? do you have a problem with that? And he would say, I would be blessed if my wife is earning more and I don't have to do anything. And I, you know, like we, that we have like everything we need. So I thought, okay, like he is just so secure and he answers everything with such charm and intelligence. So yeah, like I got to know him and I knew he was the right person, but it, like when somebody asks me about marriage now, I do not recommend that marriage is the right decision for every woman out there.

29:05And I'm also not saying that it is the worst decision a woman can make for herself. I think we have to acknowledge the reality of how still like tens of millions of girls are becoming brides when they're still children. They're losing their future. We have to talk about how there is this inequality and this imbalance of power when it comes to this. But I think we are also capable of redefining these institutions and redefining these norms as well. So I hope that it opens up a conversation where people can talk more openly and just think about it. Like, how can we make it better? How can we redefine it?

29:44Well, I loved one of the ways that you did that, which is you told Aser that you wouldn't take his name, but you were happy to offer yours. Yeah, more than happy. The offer is still on the table. Good to know. Mala, I have to say this image of you grilling him at midnight via WhatsApp is hilarious. It sounds like you were testing his feminist credentials in a way. Yes, yes. I think he is. He's a feminist. He doesn't just talk about it. I think he proves it through his actions. And And I think we need feminist men, women who are showing us how to be feminists by action. One of the things I admire most about you is the courage that you show in standing up for yourself and for women and girls.

30:31We saw it when you first burst onto the world stage, standing up against the Taliban. We saw it in this little example of, you know, standing up to your parents and to your now husband about, you know, what kind of marriage you wanted to have. There's one situation, though, where you are a coward. It's with your friends on your honeymoon. Wow. You know what? You are the first one asking about that experience. Because there are so many topics in this book that, like, this is just a small part of the story. So basically, yes, I was on this honeymoon with my husband, of course, because a honeymoon should be with your husband only in Turkey.

31:15and a friend of mine asked where I was and they said, oh, like, you know, it's a friend's birthday. It would be nice to be together. And I said, well, I'm in Turkey. Feel free to join if you can. No. And they did. They did. Six of my friends showed up on our honeymoon. It was fun. Wait, how did this snowball from one friend to six? And why did they think it was okay to join you on your honeymoon? The other friends want to come. And then before you know it, it's a whole group of like eight of you then. So I remember like we were taking a boat ride and we were visiting the beautiful mosques in Turkey.

31:50And in every photo, there's like eight of us. And yeah. I know. Asher was traumatized. Asher is like, you know, I don't know. Why didn't you say no? I have struggled to say no my whole life. I think there's still some work to do on this front. I think it sounds to me like you were trying to give to your friends, but you were taking from your husband. Yeah, well, I think you should do a separate interview with him. I think he has a lot to say about that. I think on this point about giving, I was just thinking about it recently that time is limited, time is precious. The things that you want to make come true also need so much of your focus and attention.

32:33So I try to remind myself of the bigger picture and that time is a limited resource. I think it's a really important point that it's impossible to please everyone. And the best you can do is make sure that you're disappointing the right people so that you're clear on who you want to show up for first and foremost. And if that means letting other people down, so be it. Yes.

33:01I think it's time for a lightning round. Yes. Okay. What's the worst advice you've gotten? One thing that I have heard from people, especially from Pakistan and from like my own community, is that they tell me that they're so proud of me and that I represent them. It's such a heavy word when somebody tells you that you represent them because you have to think about that identity and how you reflect that in the way you do your work, in the way you dress up, in the way you talk about different causes and different issues. So I stay optimistic, but then it's really quite heavy to hear a response like that where people ask you to be a representative or an ambassador for like a whole community or culture or, you know, or a belief.

33:50It sounds like a more extreme version of the cultural pressure that so many women face to be caregivers and supporters and nurturers and either subservient to others or to constantly be sacrificing themselves to serve others. So your best advice would be to not do that. Yes, I think it's so important for us women to know what we want. And if there's so much noise around us and we keep listening to what people expect from us, I think we will lose a sense of our identity. Okay. How about you're arranging your dream dinner party? Who's at the table, alive or dead? Mary Curie, Benazir Bhutto, the first female prime minister of Pakistan, Malala Effmaywand, the Afghan heroine.

34:43My father named me after her. I mean, the list is just so long. I really want my college friends to be there. And I want to bring so many of the girls I have met in my activism and advocacy from like, you know, girls in Afghanistan to Nigeria to Pakistan. And it could be like a really fun group of young women who come together and just chat about life problems and astrology and love life and anything. Anything. I just want that dinner. I love everything about your answer except the casual mention of astrology. Oh, I knew it. I knew it. The trigger word. Please, you can't possibly believe in this.

35:28It's made up. Okay, I mean, there's something about it. Come on. Like, do you believe like billions of people follow astrology and they can nod and they can say, yeah, I think this makes sense or like I can relate to it. How are you rejecting this evidence of billions of people, Adam Grant? Oh, Malala. Billions of people have believed false things many times in the past throughout human history. And I form my beliefs based on science, as you know. And Jackson Liu did this massive study of over 170 ,000 people in China, finding a zero correlation between your zodiac sign and your personality traits.

36:14and there's not even a way that the position of the sun and the moon and the stars when you were born could possibly affect your psychology. Adam, what is your star sign? I can't tell you that because it's meaningless. Are you just baiting me right now? You know what? Because your answer might explain why you think that way. You know what I mean? No, this is pro-social teasing right now and I don't like being the victim of it. I know. So my husband is a Virgo and he also like rolls his eyes when I talk about astrology. As he should. And I was like, oh, such exactly that's what a Virgo would say.

36:48So, yeah. I'll send you my rant about this, but I just have to add one thing here, which is even if you believed in astrology and ignored all the evidence that it has no bearing on who we are or what we're like, we all have the wrong signs. because the astrological charts are 2 ,000 years out of date. And so Astor's not actually a Virgo. Okay, Adam, what else do you want, huh? In your campaign against astrology? You know what? If people do it for fun, I'm fine with it. But I do worry that it's a gateway drug to believing other false things. There is evidence that people who believe in astrology are more likely to believe that the moon landing was faked and that 9-11 was an inside job.

37:34And I think that we need to stand for critical thinking in the world. Okay, I agree. I think we should draw a line. So you can like read about your star sign or just look at, you know, the compatibility of the potential partner you are considering. But I think there are other things that make a lot more sense than the astrological charts. So we agree on a lot of things. Yes. But I would not fully dismiss it. Yes. Well, we can differ on that one. But I'm glad that you think we should stop making life decisions based on our horoscopes. And we should stop discriminating against people based on their birthdays.

38:13Yes, Adam, you said that very strongly with a lot of passion. Well, thank you for making me suffer through that. All right, I'm going to go back to the lightning round here. Just give me in one sentence, do you have a hot take, an unpopular opinion that you're eager to defend? I mean, I have been defending it already. It's good to look at the boys or the girls star sign before you go on a date with them because it will give you an idea. Boo. Boo, yes. Who invited you? Okay, tell me, is there something you changed your mind about recently? I wouldn't say I changed my mind, but I think it has reaffirmed the way I see activism right now.

39:00I have just realized how important it is for us to focus on collective advocacy and collective activism, to know that unity and becoming one voice is a key driver to change. I think us individually can start a movement and we can begin a new conversation, but for the real change to happen, we have to join hands. Great. And what's the question you have for me? So you have a daughter who might be joining university in a few years. What is your message to girls that age and what is your message to their parents in how they can be more supportive? Wow. Oh, that's a great question. Probably the first message that I would give is you don't have to choose a practical major in college.

39:50We've reached a point now where in most westernized countries, at least, girls are outperforming boys in education. And with that opportunity, I think, comes both the aspiration and also the expectation of accomplishing something big professionally. And with that comes this pressure of, oh, I need to have a practical major in college so that I can have a successful career. And the reality is nobody has any idea what jobs are going to exist in 10 or 20 or 30 years. And even if you try to choose a practical major, you might miss the mark. And so I think the best thing you can do in college is to study something you're truly interested in and let your curiosity guide what you learn.

40:31And of course, if you do that, you ought to build a set of thinking skills and communication skills that serve you well in your career. And my message to parents is stop pressuring your kids to choose a practical major. Even if you look at the data from the last couple of decades, you know, if you look at software engineers, for example, of course, they get an early advantage when it comes to their starting salaries. But by the time your kids are in their late 20s, English majors have actually caught up. And there's a premium on being able to explain your ideas, being able to think creatively, being able to communicate effectively.

41:06And so I think parents should back off when it comes to that kind of pressure. Yeah. I mean, I would just simply add, don't be shy and try new things. Have a lot of fun. And this is going to be an amazing time in your life. So go learn. Learn through friends, learn through books, learn through everything that is around you and have a lot, a lot of fun. Okay, just a couple of last things I want to get before we wrap. Malala, what's the most important lesson you've learned from your parents? My dad, I'm really proud of my dad because he showed to me what it means to be a feminist person. And he was a feminist man before he had even heard the word feminism.

41:52And what that means is just understanding the privileges that you have. understanding how society is limiting and restricting women from equal opportunities. Simple things like allowing his daughter to be in school was a major, major thing that he did differently for his daughter, because a lot of parents were not doing that. When I became an activist at age 11 in Swat Valley in that community, he did not stop me. And I'm often asked by people, you know, how was my story unique? I just remind them that there was nothing unique about me. The only thing unique was that my father was allowing me and the other girls who wanted to be activists were stopped by their fathers.

42:37So men can play a huge role in dismantling and challenging patriarchy. They can play a huge role in redefining gender norms and expectations. They can be our allies as well. And so, yeah, this is how I talk about my dad a lot and the same way about my mom. You know, my mom and I have a tough relationship, but she's been such a strong and incredible woman. She restarted her education when we moved to the UK. So I'm just really, really proud of her that she's determined and she does not give up. That's amazing. Lala, I want to say, although I booed you earlier when you brought up astrology, I can't think of anything more worthwhile than cheering for the work that you do.

43:23I think you're an incredible role model for leading a meaningful life and also for leading a joyful life. This was so wonderful speaking to you. Thank you.

43:35Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glazer. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winnick. And our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hailash, Banban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivang, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hansdale Sue and Alison Leighton Brown.

44:04One day, you know, we'll see if I can convince you on this whole astrology thing, but that's a conversation for another day. Not going to happen. Think again, Malala. Think again. Think again. Okay.