What to do when your industry keeps changing with Manoush Zomorodi

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2:25This is a crazy moment at work. As AI becomes more accessible and more powerful, it really feels like the ground is shifting under our feet. Entire professions, companies, institutions are asking what's happening next and whether they will matter in the same way in five or ten years. I mean, I used to feel pretty clear about how to build a great company, that the lessons I've learned scaling organizations over the last 20 years would be useful to people that I write for and coach and teach. But lately, I've been asking myself, are these skills that I've spent years building still the right ones for what's coming next?

3:06It feels disorienting. Things that used to feel obvious or certain are suddenly up for grabs. For people in fields like software or design, jobs that have felt stable and secure, this is brand new territory. But in other industries, constant disruption and uncertainty aren't new at all. Take journalism. For the last 30 years, journalism has been living through wave after wave of disruption. The internet, social media, the collapse of traditional business models, the rise of independent creators and podcasts and newsletters. The ground beneath that industry has been shifting for decades, and people in media have had to reinvent themselves over and over and over again.

3:50I think there's something the rest of us can learn from that experience as we confront this new AI-driven reality. What do you do when the thing you built your career around keeps changing?

4:08I'm Molly Graham, and this is Work Life. where we untangle the messy human side of work. My guest today is Manoush Somorodi. Manoush is a longtime journalist and podcast host who almost seems to chase this disruptive change, and along the way, she has built a thriving career. Early on, she became fascinated by technology and started reporting on how it was shaping our lives. And she moved into the world of audio long before most of us realized that podcasts were about to become a major platform. She even made a podcast on the blockchain. On the blockchain. We'll get to that, but you see what I mean.

4:48She likes being on the edge. Today, she hosts TED Radio Hour, one of the most widely listened to idea shows in the world. And she has a brand new book out called The Body Electric. In other words, she has built a remarkable career while the industry around her kept changing. So I want to talk to her about what it actually takes to keep moving forward when the ground keeps shifting beneath your feet.

5:14Manoush, welcome to Work Life. Oh, I'm so happy to be here, Molly. Thanks for the invite. I know. Same. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Great. As have I. So throughout your whole career, you've had the ground moving under your feet in media, in audio, and that's now starting to happen to a lot of people in a lot of different industries with AI showing up. So I'm curious, like, what's been the most helpful compass for you when, you know, the map keeps changing? Yeah. So almost exactly 30 years ago, I got into the news business, media business. So I was like, I think I want to be a documentary filmmaker.

5:57And I was living in Washington, D.C. I was going to college in D.C. And I was like, well, the BBC makes documentaries. So I'll call them. So I literally took out the phone book and looked up the BBC's bureau and called. And the secretary, there was a secretary at the time, happened to be out. And so the bureau chief answered the phone. And I was like, hi, so do you guys need any interns? And he said, that sounds great. And I ended up working for the company for 10 years after that. I did not become a documentary filmmaker because they were not making documentaries. It was the news bureau. So I just got, I think, a boot camp in how to tell a story because that really was it was very classic news storytelling when I was there.

6:45And because I was young and when I graduated cheap, they hired me and gave me ridiculous amounts of responsibility. I was the producer for two correspondents who worked for BBC World Service, and those two correspondents did radio and TV. So I really lucked out in that I kept showing up. I was eager to learn. I asked a ton of questions. I think I had a good attitude. I was just pumped to be there. I learned the basics, like how do you tell someone a story so that not only do you get the information across, but you understand the stakes of the information. Why this is important to listen to. You add a human component to it.

7:25You explain the background just enough so people get it. And then you cast forward, like, where is this going next? You know, just sort of the formula that was there. And I think that formula of storytelling as it relates to news and changing things, that is the one thing that has not changed in the 30 years that I've been a journalist. And so every time I've sort of zigged or zagged, it's always come back to the fundamentals. And I feel very lucky in that I like change. So maybe I convince myself that I like change, but I find it interesting. I'm like, oh, so now, you know, we can add AI to it.

8:07That's kind of cool. I know there are a lot of problems with it, but I also find it inherently interesting Because every time you add something or you take it away, you change the creative formula and then you have to figure it out. But truly, the fundamentals always stay the same. It's so interesting because you actually sound like your intention wasn't to become a journalist. It was to become a storyteller. I think that's right. But I kind of roll my eyes at that now because aren't we all storytellers? We're all on social media. We're all telling our own story. We're all marketing ourselves all the time.

8:43So in some ways, I feel like, well, I was just a little early to that party. Like when I started doing videos at NPR, they were like, oh, you're really good at this. I was like, well, I was a TV reporter 20 years ago. It's not that different, really, you know. Yeah. Well, actually, tell me a story. I'm curious, like, if you think back to the early days at the BBC then, like, was there, like a moment when you were like, this is why I want to do that? Like, this is why I'm in journalism or this is why I'm a storyteller. This is like what I was put on earth to do. Like, what was it and what happened?

9:21I just think I like the idea that I'm where history is happening. And that can be in different ways, right? Like, for example, I flew into Belgrade when the parliament was on fire and I was like, huh, there could be a civil war when I land it was fine. Like everything settled down. But I just like the idea that I was where history was happening. And like, I felt incredibly lucky to be watching it for myself. It just felt very interesting and exciting. And this was a moment where things were going to change. And I saw it. That seemed really cool. It still feels really cool. I was going to say, is that still true for you?

10:02Is that still what energizes you? I got tired. It was a lot of running around. And I find that now I like to be around the people who are making history. So my favorite thing as someone who interviews a lot of people but then also explains really, you know, complex science and tech is like I want to be the person who's going to change the way we think about how we live, the tools we use, the way our bodies work. And it's probably really complicated because if it wasn't, they wouldn't be making such massive changes. So I almost see that as my job is like, OK, how do we break this down so that people understand this is coming for them?

10:44Like, it's coming. And how do you make that accessible in a way that often these like, you know, big brains or big researchers aren't necessarily great at explaining why it matters? Yeah, exactly. One thing I heard you say and I hear you say as you're talking is that you actually like change. And it doesn't sound like it scares you. Is that actually right? And have you always been that way? Oh, it does scare me. But maybe I like being scared, as my daughter would say. I was like, why do you like going on rollercoasters? She's like, I like being scared. I was like, oh, OK. Yeah, I find it exhilarating.

11:21I like I think what I've learned is maybe it's not the change so much that I like, but I like building things. That is very satisfying to me. Like, I really enjoy, like, oh, this person's asking this question and this person's saying this and the world of media has changed this way. So we could build this another way, you know. So I'll give you an example. Like, I guess around 2005, my time at the BBC was winding down and I started hearing from people who I'd been in touch with over the years about, you know, international human rights stuff. This is when a lot of those people started to realize they didn't need people like me at the BBC to put out their stories anymore, to communicate with the world.

12:06They could have their own websites. They could put out their own videos. They could do their own podcasts. Except, wait, how do we do that? So they brought in me to sort of help them figure out some of their media strategy and also get their analysts who were great at providing soundbites but weren't necessarily great at the storytelling and the background and the hosting of these things. They were like, how do we do this? Essentially, how do we turn part of our organization into its own newsroom? Not just publicity, but its own newsroom. So that was, you know, super fun to work with organizations like that and to work with the people.

12:46I think some of them are annoyed, right? They're like, I do all this research. I write this long report. And now you want me to tell everyone about it, too? Isn't that your job? Today, we're like, oh, yeah, no, it's all your job. But at the time, that was, you know, new and interesting. And I felt so lucky to be with these incredibly, you know, smart people. And just like your research doesn't matter if no one knows about it. Like it's not going to get to the people who could actually make the policy changes that you're excited about or change public sentiments in any way. And you're frankly irrelevant because you're also not going to get the funding dollars that you need to.

13:23So is it marketing? Maybe. But it was also very much journalism that they were doing. I think it was both. You seem like someone that just like tends towards the edge of things. You seem like you almost seek the unstable next frontier because you were so early in technology and so early in audio and reporting on technology, but also using it and playing around with it. What instincts do you listen to when you're deciding what to latch on to? If I'm puzzled by it or intrigued by it, I know I'm not the only one. And I'm sure you've heard this a million times. Like you write the books that you need.

14:11You do the research that affects your life. But every time I've done that, I've realized I am so not a special snowflake. If it's something that's like bugging me, it's bugging other people. They may just not have had the time to slow down and call it something or, you know, give it a name or dig into it.

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17:13Do you feel like when you were at the BBC and at like WNYC, which is obviously like older institutions that have been around a long time, Did you know that they were being disrupted? Could you feel that? Or were you just like, I'm curious about these new technologies? I think it's the BBC. I saw it happening, but I didn't really understand what it meant to be disrupted. Because it was such a huge organization, I saw the disruption more within the organization, like new teams making new things because of new platforms and people being like, but what about the six o 'clock news? What do we do about that?

17:57And it's like, yeah, guess what, you guys? It's not going to matter. I mean, I was there when they launched their 24 hour news channel. Like, what are we doing? How are we on the air all the time? So I saw the disruption from within, but it didn't, you know, my, I was in my 20s. I wanted to go out a lot and I wanted to meet people and I wanted to try things and see the world, all those things. So I didn't really think about it. But then when I moved, so after 9-11, I moved back to New York. And because they did have a 24-hour channel, because there was the internet, they just started throwing me on air occasionally.

18:33Because, like, you got to fill the time with somebody. She knows what's going on. Throw her on there. And I kind of liked it. My first was, I was on Mount Etna with the correspondent. And we thought the volcano had stopped erupting. So he went home. And I couldn't get a flight. and it started erupting again. So they put me on camera and I was on the morning news, you know? Like, I was like, oh, this is kind of fun. I mean, it's easy when there's lava literally streaming behind you to do a good job. And I do believe you don't know what something is like until you try it, until you do it, until you get your hands dirty and you can say like, this isn't actually that hard or, oh, this is really hard.

19:14This is hard. And it's not for me or I want to crack it, you know? It really frustrates me when people ask me for career advice and they're like, what should I do? Who should I talk to? How do I do this? And I'm like, just go make it. Make it. Because even if it sucks, you will understand it so much better than if you just talk about it. You will ask better questions the next time. You will realize maybe you didn't want to do exactly what you thought you wanted to do or you'll find a new way to do it. And that could be really interesting too. Like just go do it. Just go do it. Don't talk about it.

19:55Just go do it. Well, it's interesting because I actually think it's also just not something that is comfortable for a lot of people to try things that they don't know if they're going to be good at. Lots of people want to know that they're going to be good at something before they do it. What do you tell people that do have that sort of where do I start? I have this trepidation or I'm scared I'm going to fail. Yes, we all do. Go do it anyway. Nobody has to see what you are going to make. You don't have to show it to anyone. Like talk to yourself, sit yourself down and be like, we'll try it. And if I suck at this, it's between you and me.

20:33And you will suck at it, Molly, as we know, like anything that's hard takes practice. Like I really have been meaning to try pickleball. I still haven't. I know I'm going to suck. Manoush, you got to try it. It's really fun. That's what I hear. I am going to do it. There's a new place in my neighborhood. Okay. Well, just to point a point on this, and then I also want to talk about failure and just trying things that don't work out. Do you have sort of a way you recognize, like a ritual or Just a way that you know when you're like, oh, time to go dive into that, like a feeling or just something that tells you it's time.

21:15I can't stop thinking about it. It's like a pair of shoes. You try on the shoes and that's my rule. I'm like, if I walk away and the shoes don't come up again, I didn't need to buy the shoes. If the shoes haunt my dreams, I need the shoes. It's the same thing with ideas. If it just keeps coming back to me and it won't leave me alone. It haunts me. then I'm like, this is the thing. This is the thing. It doesn't happen that often, though. Like, so I've also realized that it's not like this happens every day. I am now patient with the process. I know that like this is a every two to three year thing for me.

21:54And it's a cycle to reinvent yourself, kind of. I don't see it as reinventing because I actually think I stay the same. It's the project that changes. It's the approach. Sometimes it's the vehicle, right? And I really love watching and seeing how media changes. It's like sports to me. I find it fascinating. I read all of the stuff, you know. So, like, it's a pleasure, right? Like, it's scarier now since everybody is media, essentially. But to me, that's like, well, then what is the value of journalism? And if there is an inherent value to it, how do I provide that? I want to continue to be a journalist.

22:36And I think that is still a vocation as opposed to everyone saying anything and everything all the time. You actually sound like you're very clear on either like your life's mission or the work you want to do in the world and you're just deeply not married to the how. I think that's right. Yes, I think that's right. You're like, I'm a storyteller. I'm a journalist. There are ideas and stories I want to tell in the world. What is the next best way to do that? Totally. I think that's absolutely right. Yes. Thank you for that. I know the ones that I'm better at writing a book is really, really hard for me.

23:20And I think that part of the reason is because in my very early formative years as a journalist, I wrote for broadcast. And that just formed my brain in some way that I write very simply. I write very declaratively. I want to let the people I'm talking to, whether that's audio or video, explain themselves. I want to leave space for that. So like talking for three hours, like, you know, a la Joe Rogan, like, I'm kind of like, couldn't you sub it down? It's probably more like 20 minutes, don't you think? Like, we're busy people, you know, like, I get it. Some people like that format and maybe I'll try it.

24:00Maybe I don't know what I'm missing, you know, maybe it's really fun. I'm having a great time right now. So, but I think that's right. Like, I think I, I can also get like stuck a little bit. Like there was a period where I had to do this one seven minute slot on WNYC radio and anything I wrote always ended up being about seven minutes. I could not like get out of the seven minutes. And somebody said to me, they're like, you're like an athlete. You like pace yourself exactly like, you know, somebody just runs the hundred meter. They know how to run the hundred meter. you know how to run the seven minutes.

24:34And I was like, well, I got to get out of that. I got to be able to throw the freaking javelin and, you know, shot put. I don't know how far I can take this metaphor, Molly, but you know what I'm saying? I want to be like, yeah. So like, I think I get really fixated and focused. And once I've cracked it, I'm like, cool, done. What do we do next? Yeah. What do we do next? Exactly. It's so interesting. You sound like you're in constant motion, honestly. Yes. Well, the irony that I've written a book about sitting all the time is kind of rich. But yes, I like to be stimulated, titillated. I like to be with I want to be the dumbest person in the room.

25:17Yeah, because there's all these conversations right now in the technology industry, which is going through a level of disruption that it's never experienced before. You know, software engineering up until about three years ago is the job you would have told every kid in college to go for. If you want to be an engineer, it's stable. It'll be around forever. It's highly valued and highly paid. And all of a sudden, because of AI, it's become so much more accessible. And there's these sort of obituaries to the craft of software engineering on the internet. But part of what I hear you saying that I actually really think is right on, and I was having this debate with my husband last night because he said, oh, are software engineers even going to exist?

25:57And I was like, absolutely, they're going to exist, the question is in what form? And part of what I hear you saying, and I'm curious to hear your reaction to it, is journalism, if you break it down, like what I do, what Manoush is amazing at, storytelling, finding the ideas that deserve to be heard, will always have a platform. The question is just what is the new form? Yes. And how do you make money off of it? The monetization element, for sure, I think is getting harder and harder and harder. I also think what has served me well is like, I like thinking about the business model stuff. I know there are some people are like, I'm a journalist.

26:39Why do you want me to run a business? I think you should. I think I took that lesson very early on, like when blogging started, that people were like, you are your own business. you know, clocking in is not going to last and going home and not having to think about how does media work anymore. I think we all have to be thinking that. Do I like it? Well, I do. Yes. But I think and some people don't, though, and I sympathize, but do not choose media if you're looking for it to be stable, unfortunately. Yeah. Well, it's it's unclear right now what is stable. But I am curious. So like you, you've made a lot of choices to try and experiment with things.

27:20And that's obviously like part of your story and your strength. And, you know, you chose to leave WNYC and go to and build your own production company. And you also chose, I think, a second production company building it on blockchain. So I am. Oh, gosh, yeah. I will. Well, no, but I feel like it's really relevant because not everything you try works out, but sometimes it really does. And I'm like, you have so many different examples. I'm curious what you've learned from the ones that have really worked out or really, you know, sort of taught you something and the ones that haven't. Okay. You're going to laugh, but the reason I'll tell the background is there was an opportunity.

27:57There were these two entrepreneurs who were working with the folks who run Ethereum, one of the biggest cryptocurrencies that there are. And the idea was, you know, there haven't been a lot of use cases for blockchain itself. So the idea was, could we create a journalism collective that existed on the blockchain, as it were, and where it was its own economy within? Not only was it published on the blockchain, but that you could tokenize the information and people could microtip or whatever. There were all these ideas that they were going to build out on it. Tokenization meaning like that you could like almost like pay for individual pieces of content?

28:40Yes, precisely. Like you could have a, you know, a sliver of my Bitcoin because I like your publication. Got it. I didn't, it was all a little nebulous to begin with. But when you're with blockchain people, there's a weird spell that gets cast. You know, you sort of enter this world where you're like, huh, I don't quite understand this. But it's intriguing. And if it works, this could change everything. I also get very swept up. And I'm like, OK, you've got something here. I don't quite understand what it is, but I want to understand it. So it also helped, Molly, that they were willing to give us a big chunk of change.

29:21I basically pitched. I was like, this is the weirdest story I've heard. It has tech. It has media. It also has very strange personalities. regardless of whether it works out, it's going to be one of the best stories I've ever told. And so I was like, I'm in. In it for the story. Oh, yeah. Definitely. I still think it's one of the best stories I've ever told. It was a treat. Because, wait, why is it one of the best stories? Because it was my opportunity to get into the minds of some of the people who really were at the ground zero of building these cryptocurrencies. I would say the whole thing failed spectacularly.

30:04And we documented the whole thing. Like we did an audio. It was it ended up being me and my executive producer, Jen Poyant, who's now at The New York Times. She's amazing. It was like two women trying to parent and trying to birth this weird like media company on the blockchain. Wait, what is the blockchain? So we had to explain like to normal people really didn't know. So like I wrote a song. We tried to make it fun. Long story short, one of the creators of Ethereum, Civil was the name of it. They tried to launch a coin. The coin, there was a whale that came in. If you even know, you know what I'm talking about?

30:39Like nobody knew who the whale was, was the whale actually. The concept of a whale is like, explain it to people. Yeah. The idea is that it's actually like somebody who owns the company buying their own coin in order to drive up demand. So the question was... This feels like a very crypto blockchain. Yes, all of it. And so, you know, that was an episode. What's a whale? You know what I mean? Anyway, so the whole thing imploded. And we had like one big final interview with one of the founders, creators of Ethereum, who had funded the whole project. And even though, you know, He didn't really spell it out, but to me, the lesson was so interesting.

31:21And it was that these people experienced the world in a time frame completely differently. And he had, I don't know, 50, 60, 70 projects just like ours going on in different sectors. He was playing chess on five different boards simultaneously. And we were just one little pawn over here. And he didn't really give a shit. He thought it was kind of interesting what we were doing. And he gave us an interview and we had a great time. We ended up taking it on the road to South By that year and he packed the place. Now we know who I was. It just changed my understanding of the people who build the tools we use.

32:01And that was incredibly formative for me. Like to have that happen at the age of like whatever, 45. Like, I was like, oh, oh, the people who are building this thing, they don't care about the details. They have a vision that they see in the future. And they're just sort of moving things around to see how they're going to get to that. Does that ring true to you as someone who has been on the ground at a lot of these companies? I mean, absolutely. What you were describing is the folks that do actually create generational change. Like if you spend time with, you know, a Mark Zuckerberg or an Elon Musk, it can be like feeling like you're walking into a parallel universe.

32:49Yes. And I think there are pros and cons to that. And you actually experienced both of them. The pro is obviously like these are the people that are imagining the future and are able to like drag the rest of us there. and sometimes they're so far ahead that they just cannot understand today's reality and connect the two and I think that's often a problem the technology industry has and honestly certainly remains a problem I think for the crypto and blockchain and web3 world yeah it was I mean no regrets at all well let's talk about that because like you put two years of your life into this. And the theme that I hear is the pair of shoes.

33:32Like I don't understand this and it's latched onto my brain. So it has to be the thing that I go do next. Yes. 100%. Yes. There was also a zeal in these people's faces that I was like, why are you this excited? You don't seem like you're crazy. You're obviously smart. There's something that I'm not getting. And I want to decide for myself whether this is worth investing, not literally, but being part of or not. Yeah. Time is investment. I mean, you know. Yes. 100%. Yes. What I feel bad is that, and okay, one regret, I am really good at convincing people to try things with me. So I got a lot of people.

34:25They got their money back. But I got a lot of people to be like, yes, I want journalism to not be reliant on ads for money. I want a direct way of doing this. What you've described so far seems plausible and interesting. Nobody was expecting to be rich. Maybe they were. I don't know. But like other than the whale, the people who bought most of the coin were my listeners. So that didn't feel great. But in the end, they're certainly ahead of the game in terms of understanding crypto and blockchain. So maybe they don't have regrets either. We went on a ride together. You went on a journey and you came out someplace totally different from where you started, which it sounds like to you is the point.

35:13Totally.

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38:23so just to go back to something you were talking about earlier and it sort of ties to the software engineering conversation and ai conversation um that's you know related to the the people predicting the death of software engineering because i feel like people have been predicting the death of media and the death of journalism for a couple decades now but you've built this long, very successful career inside of it. What do you say to people that talk about it as dying? I think two things. One is like there are some people who believe that as we enter this era of like, we don't know what's real, we don't know what to believe, that actually there will be a sort of reverse backlash, that people will be like, it matters that you check your facts.

39:13It matters that you have editorial standards. It matters that you know how to do the work you do. I hope that's true. I do also really enjoy the nichification of media. And I think we see that people who feel that they belong and are getting value will pay for it. I think we have to be smarter about not giving all the money to the platforms. platforms. So is bundling the answer? I don't know. I mean, Substack is kind of bundling. That is kind of what it is in its own way. It just feels like it's going to be very fragmented. And if you think back to the history of journalism in the United States, it was very fragmented.

40:01Sure, there was the LA Times and the New York Times and the Washington Post, and every city had its own newspaper and every town had its own. It was fragmented, but it was fragmented geographically. And now we're talking about a fragmentation that is by interests and mindsets. And that is more dangerous, I think, but also potentially the monetization opportunity as well. Well, so and it is interesting to hear you like talk out loud because I can hear you thinking about what does this mean and where do we go next? And it sounds like that's part of your process, which is just letting the cycle do its work, where it's like maybe it's not time to take a leap right now, but clearly change is coming.

40:48Where do I want to fit? What is the business? I mean, literally just listening to you talk, put together a lot of the pieces you talked about, which is like there'll be a moment when you sort of like have an idea or something poking at you and you're like, I got to go do this. But I am curious, like you just wrote a book about the physical body, which is so different from in some ways, like other things you've done. What is the sort of like next problem in the space that you find yourself most drawn to right now? Yeah, I think it actually makes total sense. So 10 years ago, I got obsessed with this idea that we didn't have boredom in our lives anymore because of our tech habits.

41:27So that sent me on this like rabbit hole to understand like what is boredom in the brain? Is it actually a force for good? And then I asked my listeners at the time, do you want to spend a week trying to be more bored with me and tracking your phone time? Because you couldn't track your phone then. I had to find an app and we had to customize it. It's so weird. It's now in your operating system and it pokes you all the time. But back then this was new. So 20 ,000 people signed up and they tried to cut down on their phone time and they tried to be bored more often. So I wrote a book about that and the breakthroughs that they had.

42:01And then over the pandemic, I just felt like shit all the time, Molly. Like at the end of the day, like all the screens, I was like, I'm not doing anything. Why am I so tired? Why can I only like lie down and scroll? And then that sent me on a goose chase to try to understand like what actually happens on a physical level when you sit and stare at a screen all day? And the answers are your cardiovascular health diminishes. Your chances of having a chronic illness go up. Your chance of being nearsighted go up. If you listen to headphones all day, you'll probably go deaf earlier in life. The reason you feel tired and foggy all the time is that you're actually not oxygenating your brain because of the way your posture works and your circulation works.

42:44It was this whole thing. And I was like, but all we're talking about is the mental health effects of being online. Why aren't we talking about these physical effects? Because they're all related. This is a system. We have to talk about the system. And then I found this amazing researcher at Columbia who had done this intervention that had these huge effects in the lab, which was taking movement breaks, like really gentle movement breaks regularly throughout your day. And I went and joined his lab experiment. And like, My glucose levels dropped. My blood pressure dropped by five points. My anxiety and ability to focus.

43:23One went away. The other stayed. It was crazy. I felt like a new person just by doing this dumb hack. And then here comes the new part. Because he was at Columbia, he's like, well, we can make this a global clinical trial. I was like, real science? He's like, yeah. So we went through the whole process. So it's in the midst of going through peer review to be published in a scientific journal. But we had 20 ,000 people try to take these little movement breaks and respond. And it changed people's lives, Molly. Just thinking about what I call the mind-body tech connection, how their technology influences the conversation between their mind and body, people lost a few pounds.

44:04They had new ideas. They felt less depressed. They were less tired. And in this day and age, if you can help anyone feel just the slightest bit better and understand themselves a little bit more, I'm calling it a win. I mean, it actually really ties back to your blockchain story, too, which is like what you love doing is investigating things all the way to the end and bringing people with you. And this is such a powerful example of like your audience becomes part of a global clinical trial and it might change, you know, scientific outcomes or health outcomes. Yes, that's that's huge. I mean, that is huge for me.

44:45Like if that makes a difference, like if there's one school where they're like, we're going to give kids breaks between their classes so they can move more and they see that these kids can concentrate more and they do better in school and they're happier and they like going to school. Or an office where like we heard actually a lot about this, people in their offices where they started incorporating breaks. And, you know, in terms of employee retention, in terms of employee satisfaction, in terms of health care costs as well. Like this is free. This is easy. It makes people better at their jobs.

45:17Productivity rose. It didn't decline despite all the interruptions. I think we have to rethink how we use our bodies in a screen-based world. So that's what I'm all about right now. This was so fun, Manoush. Thank you so much for doing this. Congrats, by the way. We're so lucky to have you in the TED family. Thank you for being here. Thank you.

45:43okay well that was really fun um minusha is just a really fun really interesting person to talk to and it actually left me with a question which is like what would you do differently if you believed that the thing that you are best in the world at the craft that you've developed is never going to go away that people are always going to need it but it just might look really different there's these ideas that poke at you, that, you know, you're like, I want to explore that, or I should explore that. Or really actually also what I heard her saying was, I don't understand that. That's one of her biggest signals for, okay, you need to go explore this.

46:23And I really think in a world where there is so much change and there is so much uncertainty, that's the only thing you can do, right, is to take the next step, to like step forward into the unknown. And for her, it's really served her well that she has been willing to throw her whole body into these areas that she didn't understand, but it's helped her learn and move forward and figure out what the next iteration of her craft is. work life is a production of ted and pushkin industries this episode was produced by isaac carter and leah rose mixing by hansdale she ted's executive producer is daniela balarezzo constanza gallardo is the executive producer for pushkin special thanks to roxanne high lash Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansika Sungmanivong, and Ashley Murphy.

47:22If you like the show and want more, come join the discussion on my Substack lessons. I'm Molly Graham. Thanks for listening.

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