#73 Your Internet Boyfriends Go Deep... on Tip Toe Part 2

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0:47Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA world cup streaming live on Fox one offers a subject to change. See Fox.com for complete terms and conditions. And that's how I feel all the time with straight men who make those like kind of gay jokes. I'm like, you're making this joke, but I think you still hate me. In the last five years, hate crimes based on sexual orientation have increased by 20%, while those against the trans community have increased by 50%. Stats from the Home Office showed up between March 2024 and March 2025. There were more than 18 ,000 hate crimes motivated by sexual orientation and over 3 ,000 trans-related hate crimes.

1:25Meanwhile, research by Stonewall also indicates that less than half of LGBTQ plus people feel safe holding a partner's hand in public

1:35Denis:Okay, so this is the second episode on our series Go Deep We're focusing on the show Tiptoe I'm Dennis Lenn Hello I'm a straight A straight what? A straight man A straight man? Mm-hmm It's very brave I know, yeah I came out when I was born Came straight out Came straight out Yeah, saying, let me kiss a girl Yeah My name is Mark T Cox I'm a homosexual We normally have A bit of a nonsense chat Every week But we felt that this Deserves a bit of a A more A more balanced More focused approach Yeah Because it's important And the show floored us I think I'm allowed Two dirty jokes Per episode That's it Two dirty jokes And me one low hanging fruit And that's it Homophobia Is it on the rise?

2:23Lost half to listeners straight in I was trying to think why these two people are living beside each other why is all of this coming to a head right now compared to 10 years ago which we talked about in the last episode I have loads of ideas about why they behave the way they do because they're not perfect they both have flaws and they both have almost understandable qualities as well there's moments there when Clive the straight man you start to think God yeah You kind of start to almost see his point of view in a way on some of the things he says, which I'll try and clarify.

3:02Denis:No, no, I get it. I get it. Like, you don't have to sympathize with him, but you can see the route to how he might have found himself here, right? I can see why he has become homophobic and transphobic and racist. I know why. I don't agree with it, but I know why. and I know loads of people, thankfully not in my family, I think that's a really hard situation. I have a lot of friends where their brother or their cousin is like that and it's really, really difficult to work with. I don't have that, I'm very grateful. But I have people just close enough who have those feelings and they'll never be changed.

3:40If we're trying to figure out why does he become homophobic, he feels, I think he's a bit jealous, I think he's a bit left out of society His life is not very good Or he has decided it's not good That these two men live side by side Leo, the gay one, has a house to himself Seems like plenty of money Doesn't have responsibilities Doesn't have kids Doesn't have all the weight of grown up life Clive has a wife who hates him Has grown up kids who hate him Has no money And it's embarrassing I think. I loved the scene of Clive in the building site and how small he felt because he was just doing odd jobs for shit money.

4:27His bosses were younger than him. There was like people who he perceived to be immigrants were doing well, taking his jobs, all of this. So he's angry because he doesn't have work. So then he's going to blame all these people. So that was like a little glimpse of one thing that like drives a little.

4:45Denis:All of his talking points as well Were like right wing media talking points Oh yeah But what I found interesting though was He was very well educated on the wrong stuff Well he had all the news So he was very engaged Yeah In this show Clive the straight man Starts to show a little bit of care Or a little bit of understanding on his own And he goes to the bar That was all a bit strange He goes to the bar and I think he's trying to like see what's this all about and he's obviously not very comfortable and he's a bit horrified by everything he sees but then there's there's a bit of a scuffle and he kind of jumps in and he helps save a drag queen.

5:29Denis:Do you see the way they shot that as well? So the drag queen is laying across him. It's shot like the famous statue of Jesus and Mary. I know that drag queen. Dominic Holmes works in the glory used to work in the glory in East London she did a wonderful job i thought the face that she had when she turns in to be protected was amazing yeah that was really good yeah she was only like a small moment of it but her whole story of being like a teacher and hiding from her students and like that was a very good because all the lads all the young lads were coming in and taking the piss and did you notice actually in that and we'll get back to your point in a second i think you bring up something interesting is that this is more of kind of like the tolerance and the workarounds right that have been built into like the community.

6:13Denis:Yeah. Is that they had walkie talkies and obviously you have that in a bar. Oh yeah. But this was happening regularly, right? And they had outs. So they're like, oh, I have to go. And it was just completely understood. Oh yeah, of course you have to go because, you know, you might be like assaulted or you might get grief or you might lose your job. So yeah, you better go. That's kind of what I mean. It's like always being alert and assuming the worst is coming. So if a queer person sees a gang of three lads walking down the street, they could be the nicest men in the world, you're going to take the safe route and assume that they're trouble and you'll cross the street and just not walk into their path.

6:53It's infuriating the power and the control that they have. They don't even realise the control that they have sometimes on people. And the same, like women walking on their own and stuff. No, they do. I can 100 % say that they do recognise the control.

7:06Denis:You do recognise the control you have as a man. 100%. I was getting my hair cut by a lovely friend, Maya. Oh, yeah. She was telling me that she is doing some research and stuff at the moment. And I will do a much worse job of explaining this than she did. Basically on kind of like a minority's tension that they have to live with subconsciously all the time. Yeah. You might not experience it like on the top level when you're thinking, but somewhere you're bracing and you have this tension within you and you have to live with that. I think she was kind of saying to me was that like it has real physical and mental effects on groups but imagine being a Muslim woman walking through London you don't know this man might hate me or might have absolutely no views but you're because of everything that's going on but it's a safer bet to assume that they do right to protect yourself it's a safer bet do you ever watch videos where you know when they do like candid camera things they're very interesting to analyze when strangers go up to strangers and ask them questions yeah the way that some people react compared to if it's like i don't know just like a black girl and she's like i don't know who you are i don't know what you're going to say like i'm on alert here um and then you'll have someone else who doesn't have that built-in like yeah concern and just trusts everybody because yeah i mean we we spoke about it a lot even if you don't mind me saying answer like this was an experience that I had with you which I forgot yeah I was a straight man yeah right in terms right so when I met you for coffee or just met you first like my experience now was like being friends with Mark and Dec and stuff is that you know oh yeah like they know who I am I'm just like a normal guy who's you know a good guy right and has your back yeah but I forget that when I meet new people who are gay that they're going to be figuring me out a little bit and they're going to go, they're going to have experiences or lived experiences that are probably going to be bad of straight white men, right?

9:11Denis:And so when I met you, Alistair, I was kind of coming in I was like a bit tired and I was meeting you for coffee and stuff and I popped in like, hey Alistair, I want to do all these different things and then I could feel you kind of take a step back and I was like, oh yeah, I'm so stupid, like this is I suppose it was a kind of I don't know, a naivety in a positive way, you know, because I was like, oh sure, everyone knows I'm grand. but I forgot I was like I'm not sure like I'm coming from a complete point of privilege here where I need to make sure that people feel okay yeah when they're talking to me and that I'm going to have to earn their trust a bit do you have straight men friends I must do uh not that many these days yeah yeah I think certainly in the conversations we've had I sort of realized how sometimes cynically I can approach certain interactions with people this is something i'm picking up from both of you today right is that we're a bit jaded no no that definitely but no it's that you say cynically or you say i don't want to make an assumption apologizing about it when all of the evidence is there that you 100 should be cynical yeah and you 100 should assume i think a lot of times queer people feel that they have to sort of bend themselves into uncomfortable shapes in order to sort of fit in and sort of be accepted and will almost apologize profusely in order to sort of to do that but it's just that i think the show is maybe saying like maybe it's time to stop yeah apologizing and like actually point out the groups that are causing this it actually drives me up the walls the amount of balance on certain sides of the media where they want to give voices to things that are completely damaging yeah uh that are clearly post-truth not based on any sort of like facts at all and just there to inflame things versus someone who's like you know considered factual and whatever and we're maybe it's just time we started pointing out that like these people are damaging and these people are hateful yeah and stop trying to work around it but clive was kind of getting to a point of like understanding or like trying to to i don't know show a bit of care on his own but as soon as his buddies the lads found out then it was a problem and then he flipped back to being very uh which is the kind of like it's kind of like an old teacher phrase notice it's a mob mentality but sure they wanted the amount of lads in school that were nice to me one-on-one and then on the bus when the other lads are there like a different person they flip when did you like when were you recognisably air quotes out they had an idea there was a swish I had a bowl haircut and I played the organ and I conducted the choir yeah there was and my surname flying all over the place my surname is Cox yeah come on my real name is Cox it's like those people who are called blacksmith who end up being blacksmiths like it was all there Mark and then they'd make up they'd make up little jokes Mark likes Cox is that your name or Mark touches cocks how did you navigate that?

12:19I don't know I mean it was horrible it was horrible boys but they're the boys who did that are some of them are the most horrific men now they're endlessly in trouble for beating up girlfriends and like they've they've just been let down as well by the whole thing and they've awful backgrounds and they're just they feel left out so if you're already a bit homophobic Like, I can only imagine how infuriating the last 10 years must have been for people who are homophobic, because we're everywhere. The flags were everywhere. And when he says, like, I just want to sit down and watch TV with my family.

13:01And here we go again, two men kissing. You're everywhere. You're pushing this all the time. Like, he's because he's angry about other things. And then it just keeps coming at him about pride and about gay people. and if you're a nice person and your life is going well, you think that's great for them, you know, like you, you're like, that's great, good for them. But if you're already like irritated about everything else in life, it's like another little stab.

13:26Denis:But you're like, okay, I can say, right, in the last few years, you know, I went through pretty shit times, right? Yeah. I never hated gay people. I know. I never hated immigrants. Yeah. It's just so strange, like, to have that. I never felt like I was being done out of something. you know i could see i could see it for what it was like as in you know if you're not getting a job or you're not getting paid well or you know you can't buy a house or whatever it is not brown people it's not gay people i know it's it's massive massive corporations and billionaires and now trillionaires so compare those two men 10 years ago compared to now why has it gotten so hot well i think 10 years ago they wouldn't have been siloed off into echo chambers online so algorithms are so unbelievably negative now so then you have like aggressive kind of inflammatory content they just did it on on um that stupid spaceship social media platform i don't even want to say they just did it on that they basically came out and said they're not going to block um the nrp word okay they're just not gonna block they're just gonna be like yeah whatever like sure like that's that's gonna be a great a great thing to do but i think that you've now been siloed off into something that is telling you like you know hey people hey people hey people hey people you don't see the other side of it yeah we see it with our podcast we'll put out a reel and i'll have to say to you oh um where we say gay i'm just going to say community i know because the word we have to put out these things yeah we can get massive engagement on our stuff now and we might get like half the views of someone else saying something horrendous so i think that's the difference i think the problem is is that like maybe in the gay community you're getting what might be very like reinforcing stuff of like being gay is great and blah blah right if you're a straight man you're getting none of that yeah and you're just getting stuff of immigrants are stealing all your benefits yeah and gay people are trying to sexualize your kids yeah they've also just i think there's a sport in like men's social media of watching horrific content like so the scene in the show where everyone else in the street is having a wank do you remember that episode all the sons and the wife yeah and alan next door and they're all watching porn i love the way you say that and the wife the wife's having a wank she was yeah good for her she was and he is downstairs and you assume he's going to be having a wank as well he's watching videos of killings and like if you ever i've kind of just gotten rid of twitter mostly but if you ever spend a few minutes on twitter it is very very easily that you will come across a video of someone dying in the most horrific graphic way.

16:25So this is what's kind of like making these men who might have those little fantasies of, I wonder what that feels like. They're able to see. I never saw a... Do you remember when like Saddam Hussein was killed? Do you remember all of the furry about how do we see the video? How do we see the video? But that was one person and I think I saw, I think I remember seeing a photo or something of that. Is that right? Yeah, it was on the front of one of the tabloids. But apart from that, you were never, because the media obviously censored things like that. And this is just becoming, I was on the train the other day.

17:02Do you remember that poor story of the person who died in the bungee jump accident? Did you see this? I actually don't know, no. It was like last week, there was a bungee jump and they forgot to tie the rope. Jesus. And the person died. And it's all over Twitter. You can see the video of the person. and like I was on the train yesterday and there was a big gang of lads I won't assume they were going to watch football but they had a football

17:28Denis:this is a case in point why don't you assume it they assume everything about you true right they were football and they were having their drinks and they're just taking up space and they're making loads of noise with the intention of making everyone else feel uncomfortable and then one of them took out the video and I think it's a woman I'm not sure the person who died but they were laughing basically about this yeah this innocent person who they don't know and how stupid everyone was big laugh big joke they've like completely detached from this being a person back in the day there would have been one lad in like in school or something right and there would have been a video on the phone it wouldn't even be shared around or whatever yeah of like and this is terrific right so like trigger warning here but like of a beheading.

18:16Denis:Yeah. Right. Something unbelievably bad, you know, and someone like flash it in front of your face and you, you watch it. And you'd be traumatized. So you're watching like a traumatic event. Yeah. Right. On a phone that one time. And I've never, ever forgotten it. Right. And I know you're saying that we don't, we don't take it in. Right. We do. It's, it's how advertising works. Right. You know, like when you're watching a football match and there's a little bit of advertising in the background and you don't really recognize it. Right. Yeah. But when you walk into a shop and you go, Oh, do you know what?

18:41Denis:I might get this somewhere in your subconscious you've taken in that advert so can you imagine what these videos are doing to people all day long but like it is causing some sort of like damage to us you know but you say this stuff and people go ah come on what are you talking about but then seeing it in real life isn't that shocking because you've you've thousands and thousands of references from your phone so but I think that is you can see the same line happening you start watching a person on a bungee jump right it's funny you start watching a car crash or whatever yeah And then the algorithm goes, this person likes watching people dying.

19:15Denis:The next thing is someone getting executed. The next thing is a group of lads kicking the shit out of a gay person. You start watching that over and over and over again. What we've talked about is like, what is the difference between now and 10 years ago? I think a big thing is social media companies and their algorithms just being completely let loose in the population. Don't give a shit. And having your little online mob. And also, it's not just to get them. We have to remember, right? it's not just to get them to stay on your phone it's also to push these different agendas and narratives that help these governments uh who are like on the complete far right and it's not an accident like it's not just to make you addictive they could make they could make men addicted nice things to watching a person power wash a driveway i know if they kept sending that out to men that's all they'd be fucking watching and they do a bit of work everyone might become like extreme power washers yeah but they're not they're doing this because they want to separate you and yeah i mean this is my hot take but like the reason they want to do it is just like a tried and tested thing is like hate the small groups and forget that we're big corporations gathering up all your wealth and taking all the resources it's actually the immigrants it's actually the gay people concentrate on that and forget about us paying no taxes and taking all your money i think there are a lot of powerful people out there now that are giving people their permission to do this right they're giving them permission to say this because they're saying it themselves on the biggest world stages and there's no recrimination for it whatsoever um like there was a ufc fight on the white house right which is you know yeah tacky whatever but one of the ufc fighters when he won his boat he stood up and the thing he said ending his match is michelle obama is a man i didn't see this yeah but that's they all cheered on the white house lawn of a former first lady you know obama's got his own politics that we could talk about as well right but like that's kind of irrelevant just a bit of transphobia that's what you have at the very top level yeah with the biggest like world power and everyone attending

21:14final episode shook i felt actually traumatized by it because it became a horror and i think we're so trained for it to be kind of a comedy farcical the neighbours kind of having disputes and then in 2026 a jovial jolly farcical neighbour dispute ends up with a man being murdered

21:42Denis:so like my reaction to the whole thing was like I suppose I was just pissed, I was really pissed off maybe that's the straight man in me you know, the rage right, I felt rage I was just like, I'm so pissed. And it also came just around the time I'd watched this documentary, which I think everyone should watch. It's called Between a Frock and a Hard Place. It was out in 2015. It's based on Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, on the making of that. Remember I was telling you about this movie before? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Set in Australia. It features a trans person played by Terrence Stamp. Well, this is Guy Pearce and Hugo Weaving.

22:18Denis:Right? But anyway, it's a documentary on that. And this documentary opens up, and this would have been probably footage from the 90s, early 90s in Australia. It opens up with this man, gay man, being carried by maybe about six or seven police officers. He's screaming, and they're dragging him through the streets in daylight, broad daylight. There's cameras on him, so it's not behind closed doors. They smash him through the doors of a police station. and you know when you hear like someone shout at night and you know when it's someone shouting because they're just drunk walking down the street and you know when someone's in trouble and this felt like this was the most harrowing thing to watch where this guy was panicked he was fearing for his life and it's all happening right in front of you and then i watched tiptoe they were saying it's a bit unrealistic right they're saying this would never happen or whatever but I'm just going to read a little passage how it's very realistic and it has happened and been happening.

23:18Denis:The Bondi Memorial Rise is dedicated to all the victims and survivors targeted during a spate of homophobic and transphobic violence from the 1970s to the 1990s in Sydney and New South Wales. The era of Sydney from the 1970s through to the end of the century is a tale of a city emerging as a vibrant economic social and cultural powerhouse and yet for all the glittering images of the Harbour City and its world-famous landmarks, there was also a dark edge to Sydney. It's estimated as many as 88 gay men were murdered and many more members of the LGBTQ community assaulted during this crime wave, but the true number will possibly never be known.

23:56Denis:Many of these crimes were either misreported or not reported at all. The victims ran the gamut from school teachers, university students, and barmen through to TV newsreaders and recent immigrants. The thing they all had in common was that they were gay and targeted as a result. Some victims were also trans women. There was a thing in Australia known as pufter bashing, where groups of men, as a rite of passage, would target gay men on their way home or out for a night, find them isolated, kick the shit out of them, and in one case, throw them off a cliff and kill them. So now people are watching this and then responding on Reddit with all these comments saying bit unrealistic, this was never happened.

24:40Denis:It has happened. The final scene, I think that the steps from lads having a drink watching the football to killing a man, what were the like, what were the two or three things that like pushed that? So they all met up for a football match, drinking, stuff like this, right? And every single one of them was having their masculinity called into question yeah yeah yeah by either a gay joke or one guy like prematurely ejaculating and his girlfriend breaking up with him yeah you know because that's you know it's performance right he's not performing as a male so he's being ridiculed because he's being ridiculed then he throws the ridicule onto someone else to get it off of him and starts revealing that the son is on only fans and starts revealing that the other son is gay or you don't have enough work yeah or yeah all of that all of these things and then it and then it escalates into this kind of well okay who is at the root of all this problem let's attack the gay man i actually have one criticism that i didn't enjoy of this scene one i think people who are watching television and even with this podcast that we're doing now right we can't even cover all of this tv series so there's gonna be people listening to this like why didn't you focus on this character why do you focus on this right just because time in the tv series they also can't string this out for so long to show how this might develop.

26:03Denis:So they show it like a metaphor, right? Of like, this is how it could escalate, but we're not saying that it might just escalate from this one thing. It's like, this is how people communicating within this group of male people, this male network, can escalate into someone being handed off a lamppost. I think the one problem I had with this whole thing was that there was a character in it. And I mean, as an actor, played it really well, but he was almost seen as like the no holds barred evil instigator. The red hair. Was it? The like long hair? The bangs? Yeah. Roddy. Roddy. The bangs have to go.

26:35Denis:Yeah. So he was seen as... That was my comment. The kind of really, really evil guy. Yeah. Whereas the other ones, you could see that they kind of were wavering on whether they should do this or not. Yeah. He's a lost case. Lost cause. He was kind of treated, I think, as your classic incel online, being fed all this evil, evil stuff, right? The reason I have a criticism of this is because I think that we can also sit in a comfort that only evil people do this and that this wouldn't have happened without this evil person. Yeah. And there's an amazing movie called Zone of Influence. I'm going to get real dark here and also strap in.

27:08Denis:Zone of Influence basically makes the case that the people who were in charge of the camps, the Nazis, were not actually exceptionally evil. Yeah. And they were just normal people like all the rest of us. Followed along. And they just went along and they knew what they were doing and they did it anyway. And they weren't these big scary monsters and that's way more terrifying. in in a very light case i bullied people in school i'm sure because everyone was doing it yeah and i thought it was fine yeah like we all did there was always someone in school that people picked on and you kind of if you were on your own you'd feel bad but then as a gang you think well we're all getting away with this yeah 100 i think back on things that i've said to people in school or like at their expense and yeah now that i'm an adult so i'm going like oh god why did i say that you know what was your reaction at the time of watching a game and hang off a lamppost I think I can see the steps that played out as to each man feeling a little bit demasculated little bit by bit and then each of those men have their own problems as well so they're all because and I think the show was very good at like touching on a few of those things of like the cost of living and all the shit that people are trying to to juggle Can I push you on that again?

28:23Denis:I mean, I mean, I mean, your honest visceral reaction. I'm not shocked. I think when I see gangs, lads out in the street down in Shoreditch or whatever, teasing someone on the train or like laughing at someone, it's not a huge jump. if they thought they'd get away with it. I think that's, up until now, there's been an understanding that society has rules and you won't get away with doing something like that. But the more and more we see very, very high influential people in authority, not doing that, but like getting away with saying horrific things. I think that That fear of Getting in trouble Is dropping and dropping It was horrific It was one of the worst things I've seen It was very graphic And I think they like Zoomed in on his face At a really Awful moment Where he knows Like fuck The joke is up Like I think he thought He was the lovable gay And even when they were all Turning a bit hostile He was making a few Little gay jokes And they were kind of like Bantering and playing along and it was it it jumps back and forth like even George like the young kid the gay kid he was getting bullied for being gay and then he kind of made a joke about like oh I've had bigger it's like ha ha and it's like that's how I feel all the time with straight men who make those like kind of gay jokes I'm like you're making this joke but I think you still hate me and it could easily flip back if if enough people joined in That's the biggest criticism I have of people out there right now who might even be listening to this podcast secretly is you are doing things on stage and online and with microphones.

30:19Denis:But you're making little jokes. Yeah. And then the next line you're saying you support gay people and trans people after you've made a trans joke. Yeah. And then you say, but no, I've actually got a really good trans friend. Your audience, they're listening to the trans joke and they're ignoring the bit where you say you have a friend. Yeah. Right. Like, you're making this worse. You're not openly saying we shouldn't celebrate Pride, right? You probably are saying we should celebrate Pride. And then in the next sentence, you're saying something else. Dig in. Stop punching down, because it has actual real consequences.

30:50I meet the allies. I meet the allies week after week. I do my queer history walking tours. And I meet the allies who are convinced everything is fine. The gays are great. Everyone's accepted. and I think it's really important for them and they all mean well but I think it's important that they realize what is actually around the corner but I think and I heard someone else saying this but the people who really need to watch this probably won't watch it like the straight man they won't see it so it's a bit of a waste of time sometimes these things they don't reach the right people but maybe it'll start a conversation the credits at the end as

31:34Denis:which i was waiting for clive's credits to come up and for it to say like he got a life sentence but he is being treated as like a folklore hero of the right-wing parties there's an even darker version where this becomes not the bit where it stops but it becomes the bit where it begins common well leo's credit the gay man when you search his name it says he's a convicted pedophile which is not true but this is kind of how it works that like the victim can just be blamed and a story is created and it doesn't matter if it's true or not we have to talk about the writer so Russell he's documenting queer life almost like every 10 years and all the shows are starting to kind of feed into each other now you could kind of say we started with it's a sin in a way even though that was recent but that's all about the 80s and HIV and the AIDS crisis and the depths of despair that the queer world was in and the stigma and the horrific situations people were living through.

32:44And it's so intense and powerful and very, very important to watch. And loads of younger people watched that, say, when it came out five years ago and were made to realise how recently queer people were facing. such horrors in society. Then, after that, you've Queer as Folk. Have you watched that?

33:06Denis:I've only, like, touched on it. I watched It's a Sin and I loved it, but I've only touched on Queer as Folk. If you were a little gay boy, you would have found a way to watch Queer as Folk because this was in the 90s, about the 90s, and it's probably the first time we saw, like, queer people on TV, out and about, being outrageous. It's all in Manchester. It's all Canal Street. But it's very positive and exciting and progressive and we're moving forward and the 80s are over and it's all about just having relationships and bopping around. And it was very, here we are, we're progressing, we're living our lives, we're dating.

33:45There wasn't so much of the horrors and the struggles. It was fun. And then you had this other series that I don't think you've seen or heard about called Cucumber. No, I haven't. that I re-watched a bit last night even. That was like 2015. And that's like after marriage equality. And there's even like a line in that in the first episode because it's all this gaggle of gays and they're out for drinks. And they're like, why are we not in a gay bar? And they say, well, everywhere's a gay bar. Like 2015, everywhere's a gay bar. We're all great. We're out. Everyone's getting married. Fantastic. Move, move, move.

34:18Pride flags. We're all having a ball. And then the most recent tiptoe, which should be the next step of oh my god how much better could it get and it's just