Aging and longevity reimagined: Is mindfulness the secret?

25:15So when I go to give a talk, and a long time ago as a young person, and I'd walk into the room and I knew that, you know, if I'm standing with a lot of distance between me and the first row of seats, I'm going to be nervous. So I rearranged the furniture. Most people wouldn't think to do that. You know, so I think we should take everything as potentially changeable to meet our needs. So you're incredibly dynamic and positive, which is very impressive. I think lots of people will still be saying, but can that really affect, you know, real health conditions? And I think I'd love, there's another study that you looked at, which was looking, which I think is called something like the reverse eye charts study.

25:58Okay, so I think your listeners already know that I'm strange, good or bad, okay, but different. So when I go to the doctor and I'm given the Snelling eye chart and we go down the chart and I say to myself, wait a second, because the letters are getting progressively smaller, they're expecting that soon I'm not going to be able to see. So what I did was with my students as a study, we'll reverse the eye chart. So now the letters get bigger and bigger. Hey, the expectation is soon I will be able to see. And what we find is that people can see what they couldn't see before. Could you just explain a little bit more?

26:38What you can see is largely determined by your expectations. Look, if I'm hungry, I can see that restaurant sign from a much greater distance. If I know you're going to be around and I don't want to see you, I see you a lot sooner. There are lots of things that influence our vision. And rarely in the world are we ever asked to look at letters that are out of context. I mean, there's sort of, to me, a big disconnect. Just talk us through. So what were the results of this study? Okay, the results of the study was that when we changed the expectation so that now you think you're going to be able to see, you can see what you didn't see before.

27:17So by changing your expectations, suddenly your eyes can actually read letters that otherwise you just can't read. So your eyesight actually got better. Yes, your eyes were free to see in some sense. That is really remarkable. Are you saying that your eyes change? Yes. Or are you saying that? I'm saying everything changes, everything. And what we do and what these numbers, the medical world gives us, leads us to hold everything still. I'll go back to the eyes, but let me give you another example. The other day in the health class I'm teaching, there's a large lecture and I said, does anybody here know their cholesterol level?

27:54And somebody who's got good cholesterol is waving their hands, please call on me. Yes, and what is your cholesterol level? and she tells us. I said, oh, nice. I said, and when did you have it measured? And she said, about six months ago. And then I said, oh, and you haven't eaten or exercised since? And if you die, you know, without going again, you'll die a healthy person. All right. The point is that all of these measures vary over time, but the medical world, for good reason, can't take your blood pressure, your cholesterol level, test your vision, 20 times in the course of a day. But we, when our vision, our cholesterol level, our heart rate, whatever it is, are given those numbers, we need to realize that those numbers are not stable.

28:41And that, you know, and the number isn't stable, gee, and if sometimes my blood pressure is less, well, why is that? If less is better in this case. And if it can be less at this moment, well, then maybe I can make it less in this other moment. And I'm not a victim of whatever circumstance led to whatever these numbers are. It's the same story with everything. Essentially, we hold things still because we think we know, or in this case, we think the medical world knows. Things are necessarily varying and control over our health and our happiness, over everything. I mean, if your wife - And you're saying there's a lot more control we have over our health than we think.

29:26Because things are varying. So that if we can recognize that they're varying, we say, then why are they varying? Even your relationship with your wife. So what did you say she thinks you are? I can't remember. I mean, annoying. Annoying. I expect was the word that I went with at the time. So if your wife thinks you're annoying, then what will happen is every time you're sort of annoying, she's going to see that as confirmation that you're annoying. right? And that when the way you were could have been confirmation of, you know, 10 other things. If I now think that, gee, you're not annoying, when are you annoying and when aren't you annoying?

30:04And I start paying attention to it. I might find when I don't give you a chance to talk, that's when you're annoying. In which case I'm, I'm part of the problem for me. All right. And then I have more control. So this is back to like being more mindful is like sort of being aware and asking questions rather than just assuming this is and looking for confirmation. Or just noticing, but you can't just look for the thing you think is there because then that's all you're going to notice. You have to also look for when it's not there. You know, this is work that I think actually people should pay attention to.

30:36It's work on what I call attention to symptom variability. And that's just a fancy way of saying mindful. Being mindful, you're noticing changes. All right, so when you have a chronic condition, Most people presume, because the medical world lets us unintentionally in some sense, think that there's no way to control it. There's no way to cure it. We can never prove that you can't remember. So you don't do anything about it. You just assume it's going to stay the same or get worse. And this is regardless of whether you're taking medications or anything else. All right. But nothing only moves in one direction.

31:14There are always times where it's a little better, a little worse. And so what we did was we would call people with major disorders. We'd call people throughout the day at random times, across days, just two weeks, to find out, so how is it now? So Jonathan, you know, how is it now? Is it better or worse than before? Okay, well, as soon as you say it's better, because there will be some, you know, wow, I thought it was always awful. And then I asked the important question, why? So now that does three things. Well, three things happen with this. The first is by saying that it's not always awful.

31:50You feel a little better. Second, by looking for why now. You end up doing a mindful search, looking for things you don't already know. And that is good for your health, as 40 years of our research, 45 has shown. And then finally, I believe that you're more likely to find a solution if you believe there is a solution. So we took people who had Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis, arthritis, chronic pain, stress, depression, lots of big things. And we simply had them in this way attend to the variability by calling them and got positive results across the board. And so this was my answer in some sense to the placebo.

32:36The placebo may be our strongest medication. You take this pill that's nothing, but believing it's something and you get better. So you're making yourself better. So how can we have people make themselves better without the charade? Well, you can't give yourself a placebo because you know that it's not a real drug. Could you just take for a second on this? Because I'm not sure everybody is as familiar with the placebo as you are. And I was actually thinking about that a bit. Could you explain for a minute what a placebo is? Because you just said it might be one of our strongest medicines. But it turns out that we have all these beliefs that lead us to feel better or worse, depending on the belief, and that many of us believe that if you take a medication from the doctor, you will get better.

33:18So you take the medication, you get better. You take the medication, you get better. Well, it turns out then if you take the medication, but now it's not real medication, it's just, for instance, a sugar pill, you'll get better. Now, it turns out also, not my research, but other people's, that the more money you pay for that medication, the better you're going to be. Even if it's still a sugar pill. That's right. Now, if you take an injection, that's not real medicine, just water or whatever. The injection is even better than the pill because the more I suffer, the better I'm going to be. If I do sham surgery, so now I open up your head, you've got Parkinson's, I open up your head.

33:58You as the patient believe that, boy, this is a whole big procedure. I sew you up, you will get better. And so - And not guaranteed to get better, but like significantly better than the control with that. Is that right? For sure. Yes. How does that link back to what you're talking about, the study you were doing with people with sort of chronic diseases? Okay. Before we link it to the chronic diseases, people need to understand it's explained by mind-body unity. So you're doing this thing, believing you're going to get better. and since your body is one in some sense with your mind, you get better.

34:37It's hard to know. People don't know how does this placebo magic work. And it's interesting because the medical world all accept placebos without knowing exactly how it works and yet still are not fully convinced, to a one at least, about how strong our mind is in our experience of disease. But when you take a placebo, and you think it's real medicine, you expect to get better. And if you have a big illness, you don't expect to get better instantly, right? So you start looking for when do you get better and when are you not so better. And in that way, it initiates this attention to the symptom variability.

35:20And so when you're paying attention, I think you were saying that you can actually have improvements in the way that you're feeling? Is that what you are? Well, no, they're separate things. First, we have lots of evidence where we just make people mindful, notice new things. And so by noticing new things, over time, you become healthier. The neurons are firing and it's literally not only figuratively enlivening. That's separate from what I'm saying now, but still operative, okay? So when you're tending to the variability, that's a way of being mindful. and so you're getting that boost. Let me give you an example to make it easier.

35:59So let's say you, Jonathan, think you're stressed all the time. No one is anything all the time, all right? And what happens is you're stressed. Oh my gosh, you're not stressed. You're not paying attention to the stress and then you're stressed again and that intervening time sort of goes by the by. So let's say we were going to intervene and call you periodically. Jonathan, how are you feeling? Okay. And in doing this, we find when you're stressed and when you're not. And it turns out, not to my surprise, but when you're talking to Ellen Langer, you're maximally stressed. Well, then the solution is easy.

36:35Don't talk to me. right you know and so with lots you know you raise your arm you know you're in pain but it's when you're sitting this way you know that it's bigger pain that you know so either don't sit that way or work slowly in that you know tiny movement as i was saying with xeno's paradox so i feel like there's a lot of different things here and i'm probably only captured i think i'm only catching a small part of it so it's part of this that you are not really paying attention to your own body or understanding your own situation that you're in. And so part of this mindfulness is actually just by having a better understanding of what's going on, as well as this thing you're talking about, about the positivity of the approach to it.

37:19Right. Well, it's not positivity. You're not being positive. You're just noticing. And the noticing is good for your health. But let's say you're a garage mechanic, okay? You're a car expert. And you get in that car and you start the car, you're going to hear if it's subtly not as good as it was the day before. For most people, you get, you know, the only time you notice anything is wrong is when the engine falls through the body, you know, okay. So that's what we need to be is more tuned in to the subtleties, which you're not going to be tuned into without realizing that they're changing. And I'm not talking about, you know, becoming obsessively concerned with your body, but you just feel So I do want to talk about one more study before we talk about, I think, what could people do, which I know they want to do, which is you did a study about blood sugar, which I was looking at last night, which I thought was another one, which was both extraordinary and like beautifully put together.

38:17Would you explain just briefly what the study was and what you saw? So we had people who had type 2 diabetes show up to be in the study and we take all sorts of measures. Which means they have very poor blood sugar control. Well, yeah. And now we're going to ask them, for a reason that will become clear in a moment, to play computer games and to change the game they're playing every 15 minutes or so. That's to ensure that they look at the clock next to the computer. Now, unbeknownst to them, for a third of the people, that clock is rigged and it's going twice as fast as real time. For a third of the people, it's going half as fast as real time.

38:55For a third of the people, it's real time. And the question is, is blood sugar level controlled by the perceived time, the clock time, or what people think of as the real time? And the answer, obviously, or I wouldn't be talking about in this context, is perceived time. We can control our blood sugar level. So just to play it back, to make sure that I understand everybody understands it, by changing your perception of how fast time is going, actually the blood sugar that you're measuring independently, which is this thing that's clearly in your body, not in your brain, is actually changing faster or slower, even though in theory that should be controlled by things that have nothing to do with your mind, just because you think it's 2 o 'clock or 2.30.

39:40But I'm not saying that we should control our blood sugar level by getting someone to rig clocks. All I'm trying to do is to show that our minds can control the blood sugar level. And so we're saying, though, but it's a beautiful demonstration of the way in which our mind has much more control over our body than we would think in a way that is super subtle, but, you know, really measurable. So this study you'll like. This is probably the most recent. So we inflict a wound. Now, it would have been very dramatic if I could really hurt people, but clearly I didn't want to. I assume you couldn't get ethics approval for that.

40:19Exactly, exactly. So it's a minor wound, but it's a wound nonetheless. And we have them again. I've become clock obsessed. So they're in front of a clock that's going twice as fast as real time, half as fast as real time or real time. And the question we're asking is, does that wound heal based on whatever we think is real time or based on what we think is real time, the time the clock tells us? And again, the answer is clock time. And so your skin heals faster. So if you were doing a video recording of this, and depending upon the participant's own view of time passing, if they thought the time was passing faster, this wound actually healed faster.

41:01Lots of people listening on to this will say that's surely not true, but you have published and peer-reviewed this, correct? Yes, in fact, yes. But when you go to the doctor, let's say you break your something, you break your arm, and how long does it take, do you know, for a broken arm to heal? I don't know, but my broken toes took about six weeks for the bone to start to heal. So you break your toe and you're told it's going to take six weeks. They can't know this, right? But you come to expect that it's going to take six weeks and six weeks it will take. But we're doing a study now where we have physicians, instead of giving the average amount of time.

41:38So when you're giving an average, you know, there are some people who healed more quickly, some people who took slower, you know, and then we get a mean. and that's what people essentially are told. And we give everybody the fastest healing time. When somebody tells me that something's happened to them and that it's going to take six months, I say, you can do it in three. Sometimes I tell them they can do it in one month. I don't know if they believe me or not. So Ellen, I would love, because I think lots of people listening to this are now probably saying, okay, there's something real about this.

42:08So I'm convinced there is this link now between the mind and the body and they're equal to understand, okay, what could I do? So where would someone who has never practiced mindfulness start? Okay, well, again, mindfulness as I study it, it isn't a practice. Okay. All you really need to know is that you don't know. You know, when I'm doing this in a large audience, I'll ask a question. I'll ask you, Jonathan. How much is one in one? Two. No. Okay. You see, that's what we're most sure of. Okay. That's, you know, you know this better than you know your name, right? Okay, so if you were to, add one wad of chewing gum plus one wad of chewing gum.

42:47One plus one is one. One cloud plus one cloud. One pile of laundry plus one pile of laundry is one pile. In the real world, one plus one probably doesn't equal two. So now, the thing you think you know the best, you see, gee, you didn't know it. Maybe you can generalize some. But let me tell you something that happened to me. It was a while ago now, where I was at this horse event and this man asked me, would I watch his horse for him because he's going to get his horse a hot dog? I'm Harvard Yale all the way through. Nobody knows better than I do. Horses don't eat meat, right? He comes back with the hot dog and the horse ate it.

43:27Okay. And that's when I realized that everything I think I know could be wrong, right? And the point, to me, that was exciting because that opened up all sorts of possibilities for us. You make it sound really easy. Oh, just question everything. But I feel like it's almost like I'm talking to a black belt karate saying, oh, we just do this. And I'm like, well, I don't even understand how to walk into the ring. That's right. It feels like this is too big a step. Let's say someone's saying, I'd like to try and understand this. Help me to understand, you know, like the first steps. How would I start to approach this?

44:01is there? Okay, yeah, there are a few things you can do. The first thing is look around you, look at something that you think you know, and notice the ways it's different. Different from what you expect it to be. Yeah, exactly. All of a sudden, I didn't see that. Notice about somebody you care about. And you know, it's interesting, because as you notice something about somebody you care about, they end up feeling cared for. And it actually, and we have data, improves the relationship. All right, so you just start noticing. And this should build on itself because the act of noticing feels good.

44:33So you don't want to stop. When you're having fun, you're being mindful. You know, if you were to, let's say you enjoyed crossword puzzles and you did one, you're not going to do it again right away because you know the answers. It's not fun. You listen to some, a joke is only funny if you don't know the punchline. All right. So if you're having fun and you tend to be mindful, is that what you're saying? You can't have fun unless you're mindful. So just make sure you're out there having fun. When something happens where you're no longer having fun, then question. Question how it could be otherwise.

45:05How do you know this is going to be the end of the world? Find a way to make it work for you. Can you stop by saying I'm almost like scheduling this? Like I'm going to make sure I do this once a day when I wake up. Is there like a... I think... Because I can see you're saying, oh, I do it all the time. But I think reimagining the way you think about the world, at least for me, it's a bit harder, Ellen, than the way you described. When something negative happens, you know, say you spill the coffee. All right. So for me, if I spilled the coffee, that would be an opportunity. First, it probably wasn't good for me to drink as much coffee, so it wouldn't bother me.

45:41But second, you know, I'd look at the kitchen thing. Why did I spill this coffee? What is there about the mug that, in fact, could be redesigned so I wouldn't spill the coffee? You have all those people who are squeezing these toothpaste and fighting with their spouse who squeezes from the top and you want to get every bit of the toothpaste out. And then somebody said, hey, let's redesign the tube of toothpaste. So you put it on its head. And so all the toothpaste by gravity is going and it's now easier to use. So I'm saying that everything that is. I feel you should be coming up with a lot of patents with this approach to life.

46:19The other day I was thinking about, and I was telling a story about mindlessness, which I'll tell you in a moment if you want. I'll tell you now. This person is seen making roast beef. She cuts off a slice, puts the rest of it in the pan, and cooks it. Why did you cut off that slice first, she's asked. Well, that's the way my mother always did it. So they go to her mother. She, too, is making roast beef. She cuts off a slice, puts the rest of it in the pan. Why did you cut off that slice first? I don't know. That's the way my mother always did it. They go to the girl's grandma and say, we saw your daughter and your granddaughter making roast beef.

46:51They said they make it just the way you do. They cut off a large slice, put the rest of it in the pan and cook it. Why do you cut off that slice first? And without skipping a beat, she said, that's the only way it'll fit in the pan. And that's what most of us are doing. We're not really thinking about things. So for me, I tell this joke and all of a sudden I realize, well, why do we need 45 different kinds of pans? why can't we make the pan, the one pan that gets larger and larger, you know, like a table you put a leaf in and so on. Once we recognize that everything was made by somebody who had, you know, different motivations, desires, biases, size of their hands, everything different from us, it leads to, you know, to redesigning things so that it better meets our needs.

47:36And each time we do that. So each time you're uncomfortable, rather than suffer with being asked, you know, how you can make yourself more comfortable. Everything around you can be different. And what about, because it feels like this is easiest to do when you're feeling calm and quite positive and much harder if you're either overwhelmed with negative emotion or let's say you are living with a chronic disease and actually you're in a lot of pain and things are difficult. It feels like this is much harder to achieve. Is there a... No, there are two separate points here. The first, if you're living with a chronic disease, is you should be very excited that I'm telling you there may be a way for you to reduce your symptoms and even to the point of getting rid of them entirely.

48:18So then you're going to sit up and pay notice and people are going to try it right away. Why not? In the other instance, you know, something doesn't go right. At some point, you relax a little bit about that and you start talking to yourself. Well, you know, why didn't it go right? How can I make it right? And I'm just asking people now to add to that, how is it not going right was actually an advantage in some way. And you can always find that. And we do it with people. Okay. So here's the, here's, I think, the best way to become more mindful. Every time you're comparing yourself with somebody else, you're being mindless.

48:53But every time you say, I'm telling you, Jonathan, you are just so inconsistent. It drives me crazy. I'm being mindless as soon as I call him anything. Now, Now, once I realize from your perspective, nobody wakes up in the morning and says, you know, today I'm going to be impulsive, inconsistent, stupid. So what are you intending? Well, it turns out you're intending to be flexible. Okay. I am gullible. I am so gullible. I can't stand myself for being gullible. But that's because when I'm being gullible, it's because I'm trusting. It's nice to be trusting. And the point here is very simple, although I'm making it sound complicated.

49:32that every single negative way of understanding somebody or ourselves has an equally strong but oppositely valence. For every negative, there's an equally strong positive way of understanding it. And so now we go back to your wife. You and I are together now, Jonathan, and your inconsistency, your stubbornness, whatever it is, you're being too impulsive is driving me crazy. Once I see that what you're intending from your perspective is to be spontaneous. Oh, wow. I don't want them to become less impulsive. You don't want me to become - This is back a little bit when you were talking about reframing.

50:13Exactly. Seeing this in a different, the same behavior as a different, understanding it quite differently. Yeah, so we did a study. We give people about 200 negative adjectives and behavior descriptions. Check those things about yourself. You keep trying to change, but you can't change. So for me, I check gullible and impulsive. Now you turn the page over in a mixed up order is the positive version of all of those. Now the questions, check those things you really value about yourself. Well, I value that I'm trusting and I'm spontaneous. And as long as I value being trusting, I'm not gonna be able to stop being gullible.

50:49Because it comes, they fit together. So we all know when somebody's driving us crazy or when we're casting aspersions. And now if we accept that it's our mindlessness and we ask, how did that make sense from their perspective, our relationships will improve. And the more you do this, the more you want to do it because everything just becomes nicer for you. Very last question I'd like to ask. Do you view this as an addition to sort of traditional medicine or is this an alternative? I don't see it as either one. I see it as a different way of doing everything that's done. You know, that when we recognize that our psychology makes a big difference in our health, then we might approach doctors as partners in our health.

51:39We don't just turn ourselves over to them. When we recognize that any experiment only gives us probabilities, that's good guess. So when the doctor is telling you to do something based on a good guess, you're going to take it indifferently from as if it comes on high, you must take these three pills four times a day. And so you become engaged in your own health care in a different way. Doctors know they don't know. Everybody who is expert at whatever they do knows they don't know. And so it'd be a relief not met with hostility. You know, they should still be respected for what they do know. And knowing best guess is still not having the vaguest notion.

52:20But when we're aware that everything is changing, everything looks different from different perspectives, any business that holds things still, any profession is behaving mindlessly and missing out on all of the advantage that would accrue from this more mindful noticing. Amazing. Alan, I'm going to try and summarize the conversation. This is definitely going to be my hardest ever because I feel like I only understand the basics of what you're talking about. But let me try and do that. Before you do that, can your listeners understand that reading this, when you're reading about someone, you can stop and pause and question yourself, and then it becomes, I think, much more accessible.

53:06At least that was my goal. No, I think lots of people are going to be listening to this. And actually, what I wanted to talk about was, I think there is this remarkable series of studies that you have done that look at this idea of mindfulness, which is, as I'm understanding it, really paying attention to what is going on, being aware that maybe the interpretation that you had might be wrong, or that you don't really understand what is here, that what you are experiencing in your mind has this remarkable impact actually on things that are just measurable separately. And you showed that whether it is your blood sugar responses, whether that's your eyesight, whether it's people perceiving you to be 20 years younger with this counterclockwise example.

53:53And that although that I think for many people sounds sort of crazy, because it sounds like it's complete opposite of everything we're told, actually, you know, there are a whole series of these experiments that shows this, that I think you had a very interesting conversation around some of these studies looking at people living with chronic diseases, where again, if you change the way that you're sort of framing your experience and starting to notice also the times that are better rather than worse, that this can have this impact. And that somehow this is quite linked to something that medical science has looked at for, you know, a hundred years, which is the placebo, where we know from many of these studies that a placebo can have this remarkable impact on people in almost anything that's being done.

54:38And then in a sense, we've accepted that as the impact of the mind on the body, but you're showing that there are all these other ways in which this can affect you. And then I think you are saying it is very easy to do. And I know that you have a book that helps people to understand how to do it. But my takeaway is there is a starting point. You can say, I would like to not just pay no attention to what is going on, but actually, even if I'm just doing this at some particular times, to look and realize I don't know or that the person I'm with is actually different from how I imagine them. And that is what has started to unlock this thinking.

55:11And in part that if you're going to do it, be there. And what does it mean to be there is, you know, you're brushing your teeth, watch what's happening, enjoy it, you know, as silly as that sounds. And this is a bit like being in the moment, isn't it? It's rather than just zoning out. I'm so glad you said that because people, you know, tell people, instruct them, be in the moment. That's an empty instruction because when you're not in the moment, you're not there to know you're not there, right? This is the way to be in the moment. Just simply notice three things about whatever you're doing. Five.

55:45Forcing your attention. And I was going to say, the last thing that I did want to mention, I thought it was fun, is have fun. Yes. Because you said that if you're having fun, you are by definition being mindful and you're in the place. And I love that as something we talk about at work quite a lot. Because I often say, like, what's the point of being at work if you're not having any fun? If we're lucky enough to be in a position, as I think most people are at Zoe, where you have choices of a lot of things you can do, then you should be trying to have fun out of what you're doing at work and hopefully meaning as well.

56:15There's a video that I have that has nothing to do with me, but that I have my students in a health class watch. It's a piano video. I don't know if you know this. So it started in Scandinavia where you have a subway station and you have stairs and an escalator. And almost everybody takes the escalator. And you'll have a young guy who'll run up the stairs. But most of the time, so then what these researchers did was they laid down piano keys on the stairs. So when you go up, it's actually making noise. And in almost no time, people give up the escalator because it's so much fun going up the stairs.

56:52And so what I tell my students is, why wait for somebody to have the idea? I go up doodling, you know, all the time. Virtually everything can be made so that it's at least interesting, if not outright fun. And if you can do that, maybe that's the biggest takeaway right now, that make what you're doing fun and you will necessarily become more mindful. Thank you so much for taking us in and taking us through this. And I have definitely learned a lot in this episode. Thank you. Well, I've enjoyed it. Thank you, Jonathan. It's a pleasure. Thank you, Ellen, for joining me today on Zoe's Science and Nutrition.

57:31This conversation has highlighted the significant role that our mind can play in our physical well-being. And we know from other scientists on this podcast that the food we eat can directly affect our minds and our mental health. So if you want to understand how to support your body and mind with the best foods for your health, then you may want to try Zoe's Personalized Nutrition Program. You can learn more and get 10 % off by going to zoe.com slash podcast. As always, I'm your host, Jonathan Wolfe. Zoe's Science and Nutrition is produced by Yellow Hewins Martin, Richard Willen, and Tilly Fulford.

58:02See you next time.

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