Fix your sleep with the Royal Marine's sleep consultant Dr. Sophie Bostock

23:41Dr. Sophie Bostock:The final part of it is that there has to have been adequate opportunity to sleep. So if you have a young mum of a baby, they probably haven't had the opportunity to sleep. That's not insomnia, that's just parenting. All right, completely different question. Does alcohol help you fall asleep more quickly? alcohol can help to sedate you so it can help you relax and perhaps pass out or get into something which looks and feels like sleep the problem is that when you get into sleep the quality of that sleep can be very disrupted so yes it can make the time to fall asleep shorter but once you're asleep you tend to end up with very fragmented sleep you have this REM suppression so REM is rapid eye movement sleep, often associated with dreaming.

24:33Dr. Sophie Bostock:And it's really important for your emotional balance. And what tends to happen with alcohol is that you get this delay till REM, and then perhaps just before you wake up that you get these incredibly vivid dreams. So you think you've dreamt more, but actually you've had a reduction in the amount of REM sleep. So you might end up feeling a bit sort of irritable and perhaps not quite have the same memory of the night before as you would have had if you'd had a good night's sleep. And Sophia, I have a question And just for me now as I listen to this, so I feel that now, aged 50, if I even drink a small amount, it has a terrible impact on my sleep.

25:06But I'm sure that in my 20s, I could drink and sleep fine. Is that true?

25:14Dr. Sophie Bostock:It probably is true. I mean, there's lots of things going on there. You may well have developed some sort of tolerance in your 20s. Many students, I feel, probably build up some sort of tolerance to alcohol. And we're less likely to experience hangovers in our 20s and 30s. Generally speaking, our physiology is more adaptable, more flexible. Certainly, as we get older, typically our sleep becomes more fragmented, lighter. We have less deep sleep. We also get a little bit less REM sleep. That is an age-related change. It doesn't mean that we can't protect good quality sleep. and with good sleep habits, you often find really good sleepers in their 60s and 70s, but they're more vulnerable to sleep disruption.

25:55Dr. Sophie Bostock:So a sleep saboteur like alcohol can become more powerful as we get older. And so as we're getting older, and if we are trying to have great longevity, sort of maximise health years and just sort of enjoy all those years, right? So show up good through this. What is your perspective on alcohol? It comes back to what we were talking about earlier, that if you're too strict with anything in life, if you're removing perhaps social occasions with family where everyone, I'm thinking about my dad's 80th birthday and everyone drinking champagne and really enjoying that social scene, do you need alcohol to enjoy that?

26:34Dr. Sophie Bostock:Probably not. But if you had a glass of champagne, I don't think you should feel guilty about it either. Generally speaking, from a sleep perspective, if you are going to drink alcohol, drink it earlier in the day. We don't want to be drinking alcohol close to going to bed. I've certainly found personally that I've reduced the amount that I drink because I feel better without it. But I know that there are some benefits to polyphenols, for example. Listen to Tim Spector talk about some benefits of red wine. So everything in life is a balance. And for me, alcohol is a sleep saboteur. If someone was saying to you, I'm drinking a glass of wine every night and I want to improve my sleep quality, what would you say to them?

27:14Dr. Sophie Bostock:I would say, well, let's do an experiment. I'm all about self-experimentation. And if that one glass of wine is had earlier in the evening with a meal, it might not be disrupting sleep. But we don't know that until you try it. And actually, I would say that one of the most useful things about wearable devices, tracking devices for sleep, is I've worked with a number of people who have seen the impact of alcohol on both their sleep quality and their recovery the following day. And they've been like, alcohol really has an impact on me. And it is that objective data that has actually helped them to reduce their alcohol consumption.

27:52All right, let's move on fast to alcohol. what about sleeping pills? Are they a good solution if you need to sleep better?

28:00Dr. Sophie Bostock:There are certain times in people's lives where sleep can become so difficult that I think going to see your doctor and being prescribed a sleeping pill can give people some short-term relief. So I'd very much see sleeping pills as something for severe sleeping problems. You've kind of tried everything. You don't seem to be able to get a handle on your sleep. And under the guise of a medical professional, you take these pills, which for a few weeks, hopefully are going to help you to get to sleep. The quality of sleep that you get from sort of sleeping pill induced sleep is not the same as natural sleep.

28:40Dr. Sophie Bostock:You very often end up with this sort of hangover groggy effect the next day. The quality of the sleep will be not quite as restorative as it would have been without a sleeping pill. We know that in the long term, it can be quite difficult to come off some sleeping pills. Some of them are quite addictive. And there's both a physiological aspect to that, but also a psychological aspect because you've got this solution that you believe is going to help you sleep well. And I actually often talk about the importance of the placebo effect. So we know that roughly two thirds of the effectiveness of sleeping pills on average it's actually down to a placebo effect.

29:21Dr. Sophie Bostock:This is why sleep beliefs are so important that I could give you a little sugar pill and I could say, Jonathan, this is going to help you sleep better. And on average, you will fall asleep about 10 minutes faster, which is not dissimilar from taking a sleeping pill. Usually I will try everything else other than sleeping pills, mostly because behavioural and psychological interventions are more effective in the long term. We were talking earlier about CBT for insomnia and how that's the number one recommended approach for insomnia. So we talked about some of the ingredients, we talked about sleep hygiene, we talked about cognitive strategies, talked about sleep restriction.

30:01Dr. Sophie Bostock:There's also a very specific approach called stimulus control, which sounds a bit more complicated than it is. Really, it's just the idea that you use your bed for sleep and perhaps for sex, but nothing else, just the good stuff. So you only get into bed when you're sleepy. And if you're really not, even if it's two or three o 'clock in the morning, you get out of bed. And this is to break any sort of negative connection that people build up between their bed and not being able to sleep. So if you wake up regularly at two, three, four o 'clock in the morning, your brain sort of learns, oh yeah, your bed is the place where you worry about stuff.

30:37Dr. Sophie Bostock:And to try and break that cycle, take yourself out of bed. And then the final ingredient for CBT for insomnia is relaxation strategies. And these come in many different forms. And I would probably include some mindfulness based strategies here, but whatever works for you in terms of relaxation. So I've skipped there into CBT for insomnia, simply because I know we were talking about sleeping pills, but I would be starting with CBT for insomnia if I possibly could, or even doing that alongside taking sleeping pills and you will find that the more lasting effects come from CBTI. Fascinating. The next question I had actually ties into that, which is, can exercise help you get better sleep?

31:21Dr. Sophie Bostock:Oh yes, 100%. I say 100%. You can take it too far. So for most people, exercise is wonderful. It impacts on the three main systems that I would say influence your sleep quality. So first of all, you've got your circadian rhythms, which I know I've been talked a lot about on the podcast, but this is your 24-hour intrinsic rhythms. We're designed to be active and alert during daylight hours and to rest and recover at night. And the more consistent we can be with our sleep timing, the better quality sleep we'll get. Exercise is one of those things, we call them zeitgebers, that helps to moderate our circadian rhythms.

32:03Dr. Sophie Bostock:So, so long as we're doing our exercise during the day, that helps to send an alerting signal to the brain. And that is going to increase the likelihood that the brain is ready for sleep at night. So, that's one positive of exercise. The second is that increases sleep pressure that I've mentioned already. And this is just the buildup of a chemical called adenosine that helps us feel drowsy. So, when we expend energy, we break down a molecule called ATP. we release adenosine as a side effect and that builds up gradually over the day and helps us feel tired. So more exercise, more adenosine, we'll be sleepy.

32:40Dr. Sophie Bostock:But then the third and final sleep system is the stress system that I've talked about already. And we know that exercise has a brilliant sort of moderating effect on the stress response system. So although in the short term exercise is a stimulus, it's a stressor, it gets the body going, it's that recovery afterwards that helps to decrease the activation of the stress response helps us to relax. So the reason I said 100 % for exercise and then changed my mind is that if you exercise too intensively, too close to bedtime, it can be a problem. And there was a recent study from wearers of the Whoop wearable actually that came up with intense exercise even four hours before bed could still interfere with the quality of sleep.

33:28Dr. Sophie Bostock:But that would have to be pretty full-on exercise, I think, to have that effect. You need enough time to start feeling tired from the exercise you did. Yeah, and for your body temperature to cool. I think that's a big thing. I think about it as a runway towards sleep and a bit like a race car. You know, the faster you've been going during the day, the more length you need to give yourself in terms of time to slow down. Is scrolling on my phone a way to unwind at the end of the day? Some people will say yes, but actually you've still got a mental stimulus there. So it might be a step on your wind down, but this is where I'm really keen that people set a timer for how long they scroll for.

34:09Dr. Sophie Bostock:It's not necessarily a bad thing. It's a bad thing when you're scrolling for an hour and a half and you're meant to be scrolling for five minutes. Well, I've got another one here. Can eating turkey help you get to sleep? Okay, so the theory here is that I think it's the tryptophan content in the turkey which supposedly is going to help you sleep. I believe I read some research that suggests that the amount of tryptophan in turkey that we get would not really be enough to influence your sleep. You'd have to consume 50 turkeys or something to really influence that. We've talked a little bit earlier about generally speaking a healthy unprocessed diet which might include sort of protein some lean meat is probably going to be good news for sleep I have not seen any research specifically on turkey that shows that it improves your sleep what may be happening around Thanksgiving you have you know lots of excitement lots of food as you're relaxing afterwards you've had a very social occasion.

35:11Dr. Sophie Bostock:There's all sorts of things that will reduce your stress response in that environment, perhaps lead to some good sleep. Might not be the turkey. Do you know someone who struggles with their sleep? If so, why not share this episode with them right now? You might just be able to help them boost their mood, their performance, and finally get that good night's sleep. So one of the things that has really surprised me at Zoe, if I look at sort of what we see now and what I would have imagined eight years ago when I knew nothing about nutrition or the rest of it is that people following sort of the Zoe advice from their app and when we did this randomized controlled trial, seeing really big impact on sleep.

35:55And I never would have thought that food had anything to do with sleep. Are you surprised to hear that? And do we have any understanding of why like this shift in diet that's really optimised about health might be affecting sleep really quite fast.

36:13Dr. Sophie Bostock:Yeah, I think this is a fascinating area for research. I think we need to do more research on it. We've got suggestions of why this might be the case. So I think one of the first studies to look at food and mental health, I think it was called the SMILES trial, and they compared just a kind of Mediterranean style diet, I think with some sort of social connection intervention. So both of them were helpful for mental health, but actually amongst people who had an unhealthy diet, this Mediterranean style diet really significantly improved mental health. Now, mental health and sleep, as we've already talked about, have an incredibly close relationship.

36:53Dr. Sophie Bostock:So if you can do anything which is going to improve emotional health, it is very likely that your sleep will improve as well because the two are just so intertwined. in terms of what are the mechanisms what role does the gut microbiome have to play it's certainly going to have a role there's a good sort of indication that more fibrous diets which are going to be good for your gut microbiome are also good for sleep but i don't think we know enough yet to say exactly why what is going on here also we don't want too much inflammation we know that if your body is in a state of high inflammation you're likely to have poor sleep Sleep itself lowers inflammation.

37:33Dr. Sophie Bostock:So it is, again, a two-way relationship. But ultra-processed foods have been linked to insomnia, for example. So we've got lots of indications which suggest that improving your diet should improve your sleep. But I think it's great that you've got some emerging data from Zoe that suggests that there is very much a causal or driving relationship. so final one of these questions and i think it's right in this area cheese because i i grew up everyone told me if you eat cheese before you go to bed you get nightmares so there was a paper that was published i think just a month or two ago on this and it was actually a survey so this was a canadian study and over a thousand students who got credit for taking part in the survey and they asked them about the foods they ate and whether the people thought they influence their sleep and their dreams.

38:25Dr. Sophie Bostock:And out of a thousand people, I think only one percent suggested that dairy influenced their dreams. The study suggested that that population were more likely to be lactose intolerant. So of course, if you're eating something that really doesn't agree with you, it may well disrupt your sleep. What about supplements? The two supplements that particularly came up in these questions were melatonin and magnesium. Okay, so both quite big topics let's tackle magnesium because in a way it's a bit less controversial i think of magnesium as the swiss army knife of supplements really it sort of seems to do a bit of everything it's involved in hundreds of enzymatic reactions in the body there's no question that we need it there's also no question that if we have a generally pretty healthy diet with lots of fresh fruit and vegetables we will probably get enough magnesium in our diet what we don't know from the research is whether magnesium has any impact on your sleep if you're not magnesium deficient.

39:25Dr. Sophie Bostock:There was a study in December last year that looked at magnesium L3 in 8 and that seemed to suggest that yeah help people fall asleep perhaps 10-20 minutes faster, improve sleep quality. So anecdotally I know a lot of people who take magnesium and say it improves their sleep. I think the effects are probably not that strong. But if it works for you, try it. It's pretty inexpensive. It's pretty difficult to sort of overdose on magnesium. We're just going to excrete it out again. So it's one of those where I'm like, well, you may as well experiment with it, particularly if you are in a population that has experienced quite a lot of chronic stress because we know that that decreases your storage of magnesium.

40:08Dr. Sophie Bostock:So any chronic stressor, and that might mean a lot of exercise or going through menopause, there are certain populations who will be at more risk of magnesium deficiency. Thank you. What about melatonin? Melatonin in this country, here in the UK, is only available on prescription from your doctor. I know a lot of people listening will be in the US and other parts of the world where they may well be able to buy it as a supplement over the counter. so the reason that it is only available on prescription here is you know it's a natural hormone it's got very few side effects actually relative to other sleeping pills but it does have physiological effects so melatonin we all naturally secrete from the pineal gland in the brain and if you have regular sleep patterns regular circadian rhythms you'll typically release it about an hour and a half to two hours before your normal bedtime.

41:07Dr. Sophie Bostock:It's often called the hormone of darkness. So if you're in very bright light, as we are recording in the studio, that would really interfere with your melatonin levels. And that could either delay the secretion of melatonin or reduce the amount that you get, which would make it a bit harder to fall asleep. As we get older, we produce less melatonin. So in this country, it can be prescribed for insomnia for adults over the age of 55. But the reason it's not really prescribed for adults below that age is because there's not really much evidence that it helps them, not for insomnia. So what melatonin is good at is changing the timing of sleep.

41:49Dr. Sophie Bostock:So if you've got someone who has a circadian rhythm disorder where they are going to bed very, very late at night, their body clock is delayed by four or five hours relative to most of the rest of us, then melatonin is that tool that can be used to bring the body clock forward. So I would say that it's probably not going to help you very much if you have insomnia. And I think a lot of melatonin is purchased in the US by people who have that belief. The stuff that you buy over the counter is notoriously unreliable when they've done analysis of how much there is in particularly gummies, which often people buy for their kids.

42:29Dr. Sophie Bostock:We know that the amount of melatonin in those is anything from 74 % to 374 % of what is actually advertised. And to get melatonin to actually work, you need to get the right dose at the right time. So if you do think melatonin might be helpful for you, and it might be a circadian rhythm issue, It may be that particularly for children with autism, ADHD, sometimes they have circadian rhythm issues as well. Go and speak to your doctor. I would always prefer that a medical professional is managing the dose, the timing and also the quality of that melatonin that you are taking. Amazing, Sophie. Well, you have answered a lot of listener questions.

43:10I'd love to like pull this together now into sort of quite straightforward, actionable advice. And maybe we could start with this sleep hygiene, because you've used that word many times through this fascinating conversation. And could you maybe describe to me if you were trying to say, Jonathan, this is the sleep hygiene that you or a standard person should have. What is that?

43:32Dr. Sophie Bostock:Let's keep it simple. Start first thing in the morning. Wake up at the same time as often as you can. So set your alarm for the same time each day. When you start to do that for a week or two, you'll find that you don't need the alarm anymore. but try and aim for consistent wake-up time. Aim to get some natural light, ideally within the first hour after waking, that's going to kick-start your circadian rhythm for the day, tell the clock that it's wake-up time. And the advantage of doing that is that if you get this bright light in the morning, it's going to banish the melatonin, so you're going to feel more alert, but automatically, 15 or 16 hours later, you're going to start to feel sleepy.

44:12Dr. Sophie Bostock:Move your body during the day, whichever way makes you feel happy but get physical be active there was some recent research actually suggested that yoga was one of the best forms of exercise for sleep so it doesn't need to be super intensive it just needs to feel good for you take some time out to relax during the day particularly if you're a busy person that goes from a to b at 300 miles an hour just take 15 minutes for yourself, a moment to be and not do. And then as we come towards bedtime, try and have a consistent wind down time. I'm not bothered about whether you get into bed at exactly the right time, but try and have a consistent time where you start to switch off.

44:56Dr. Sophie Bostock:So in that hour of wind down, you know, get done what needs to be done for tomorrow, some form of relaxation, something to look forward to, whether it's a warm bath or reading a book or doing some breath work, listening to music, some intimacy with your partner, with your family. Social connection is often neglected in terms of its role in improving sleep. And then during sleep, you want darkness. Use an eye mask or blackout blinds. Try and sort of banish light from your sleep environment and just let it come. Don't try too hard to sleep. That sounds brilliant. The one thing I haven't heard you mention I'm curious about is use of that smartphone.

45:37Because you said right at the beginning that that's the number one thing that's really changed everything and made this worse.

45:43Dr. Sophie Bostock:In my book, That Wind Down Time, that's when I'd be switching off the phone. Ideally, the phone does not come with you into the bedroom. Buy a cheap alarm clock that has no smart functions. And this is something that actually can be really good for families. So parents will often say, you know, how do I separate my teenager from their phone? Well, if it's something that everybody does, it's just a norm. The phones don't go into the bedroom. That's not where they live. That just is a rule that you can make for yourselves. If I do all of these things, if I'm not in the insomnia, but I'm in that 50 to 60 percent of people are not getting their best sleep, can it really transform my sleeping?

46:21Dr. Sophie Bostock:All of those things might help a bit. I don't want to overdo the sleep hygiene piece because I also know there are some great sleepers out there who have pretty poor sort of sleep habits. They're all part of this picture of positive sleep health. I think if there was anything to add to that, it's just that I would love people to believe that sleep is important, but also to believe that they are good sleepers. A lot of what I do is help people build confidence. So if you do those habits, what happens is that you build confidence that you are going to sleep well. So that helps to ease the anxiety.

47:01Dr. Sophie Bostock:If you're someone who has been anxious about sleep in the past, the danger of this advice is that it's too rigid. And that if you haven't had 15 minutes of daylight within an hour of waking up, you start to get anxious. If your phone's accidentally gone into the bedroom, then you might have a terrible night's sleep. So these are guidelines. They are recommendations. They are not strict rules. What about wearables that track sleep? They're obviously very popular. Can they help? I'd say they absolutely can help. It depends what you're using them for. So I believe they can be a brilliant accountability buddy.

47:41Dr. Sophie Bostock:So if you set yourself a goal around improving sleep consistency, for example, and you are tracking that, that is a behaviour that's actually very easy to change over time that is going to be linked to better quality sleep. I think where they can become a little unhelpful is where people become fixated on the numbers. And there is a very real condition called orthosomnia, which is an obsession with the perfect night of sleep. Ultimately, the most important thing is how you feel during the day. And although wearables can give you some useful indicators, it's really about how you feel is the most important metric that we have.

48:17I was going to ask your own sort of sleep habit. What are the critical things that you try and make sure you do?

48:24Dr. Sophie Bostock:For me, it is about doing exercise in the morning, definitely getting some bright natural light and as much natural light actually during the day as possible. I recently broke my collarbone. And so for at least a week or so, I wasn't getting outdoors as much as I normally would. And I really noticed it. Obviously, I was in pain as well. And that wasn't very helpful for my sleep. But I noticed that as soon as I started reintroducing just walking, not even intense exercise, my mood improved, my sleep improved. So for me, that's an absolute must. But also, I would say just taking that scientist approach to my own sleep, testing, trying new things.

49:03Dr. Sophie Bostock:We talked about magnesium earlier, do an experiment with that. I'm currently trying a sauna blanket to see whether that improves my sleep. You know, I think taking that curiosity, what can I do? Does it make a difference for me because we're all different? Final question. If you were going to say like one thing that a listener could sort of start doing today, what would you say? I'm going to give you something a little bit different here. so there's a technique to help you fall back to sleep called cognitive shuffling i've talked to a few people recently and they've found it really useful so this comes from research that compared what happens when good sleepers fall asleep versus poor sleepers and the good sleepers will describe seeing very visual things which are not rational not related to each other whereas a poor sleeper will often describe planning thoughts, anxious thoughts, thinking about I've got to do this then.

50:01Dr. Sophie Bostock:So to try and promote the mind state of a good sleeper, this cognitive shuffling technique involves thinking of a random word, any word. So last night my word was leprechaun. And then with each letter of that word, thinking of another random word. So my L might have been lemons. Every time I think of that word, I try and visualize it. So I go from lemons to elephants. I wasn't actually quite sure how to spell leprechaun, but I was asleep before I got to the end of the word. So it didn't really matter. But that technique might be useful. Sophie, that sounds amazing. I've never heard of cognitive shuffling before.

50:41So I think what you're saying is I come up with a word like elephant, and then I take like the first letter of it and I try and come up with a random word that begins with E, like eagle, and I think of a picture of it. And then I go to the next one, like L, and I think of lemon.

50:59Dr. Sophie Bostock:It's a simple sort of word association, image association game for your mind. There's no pressure here. It's just for fun. I'm definitely going to try that and see how that works. I'm going to try and summarize, and we covered so many different things. The first thing that springs to mind is I need to go away and do an experiment on drinking alcohol, that self-experimentation on these things is really important. And to see what happens, in fact, when I drink it or not, and you point it out, potentially it's just a component with quite a lot of other things. And we tend to overemphasize maybe one element of the sleep.

51:35So maybe the story I'm telling that it's so bad for my sleep might actually be part of what makes it that way. The other thing that I have really taken away I hadn't understood before is that there's a large number of us who are not sleeping really well. You said like 56%. But then there's like 10 % to 20 % who really have this insomnia. You've talked quite a lot about very specific ways to deal with this. If you have insomnia, starting with a CBT and how powerful it is. And that really made it a bit different from this huge chunk of us who are struggling with sleep. And that the big reason why this is so much more of an issue today than 25 years ago is phones.

52:16Because we've had lights and things like this for a long time, but the phone is a really big difference. And the thing I've understood about this is you're saying, as human beings, our brains are wired to seek information. And these phones are constantly giving us this new information and giving us this sort of dopamine hit. And so it means that we just don't want to put it away. So we have to recognize that, think more about sleep than otherwise. Not sleeping is really bad for us and it can cause heart attacks and all these sorts of things. But actually just in the short term, it makes us really irritable.

52:49And you describe this thing about like sleeping next to like a nest of saber-toothed tigers. You wouldn't sleep very well and you would want to be anxious the next day because there were saber-toothed tigers. But actually now we're messing up with our sleep without that reason. But it means that our perception of threat is higher. And this is part of why we're so irritable with our partners when we don't sleep well. One of the things that you sort of came round to over and over again is how much our attitude therefore matters. How are your own assumptions about your sleep causing problems? And can you be more relaxed about all of this?

53:22And maybe already I will sleep much better. But you were pretty clear, in fact, there's quite a few things that I could be doing about my sleep to make it better. And interestingly, they start at the very beginning of the day. So you said the first thing on sleep hygiene is actually to wake up at the same time every day, whereas I tend to think immediately about the night. And I think like many people, I wake up at a completely different time at the weekend than during the week. Natural light, you know, as soon as possible in the first hour. Try and do some exercise. Try and take like 15 minutes at some point during the day to relax.

53:55And only then did you talk about the bedtime routine, which I thought was really interesting. And there again, it was like consistency was the first thing you said. So like consistent wind down time, an hour, which is immensely longer than I do from like stopping thinking about work to going down. Try and disconnect from the phone at that point and do something else that is going to help you relax. Darkness during sleep, bedroom, like the bed is not for your phone. It's for sleep, maybe sex. And if none of this is working, you gave us a lovely little tip at the end. Cognitive shuffling. Think about that word.

54:32Think about the images. And hopefully you'll be asleep before you get to the end of the word.

54:36Dr. Sophie Bostock:Fantastic. It's an amazing summary. As you can imagine, hosting this podcast, running Zoe, juggling family life, it all keeps me pretty busy. So I try as best I can to stay energized and show up well in all those parts of my life by fueling my body with the right food, by exercising, and by adding a scoop of Daily 30 to my meals every day. If you haven't heard of Daily 30 yet, it's the gut supplement designed by our gut health scientists here at Zoe. It's made of over 30 high-quality, hand-picked plants, including seaweed, fungi, and different types of fiber. Better yet, it contains ingredients that support gut health, digestion, and energy, which is ideal for packed calendars and busy lives.

55:21Simply add one scoop a day to any meal for an extra boost of fiber and plant diversity. and because it tastes delicious on just about anything and adds a satisfying crunch, it quite quickly slots into your life, becoming a daily healthy habit you'll always have time for. By the way, whenever we talk about daily 30 as a good source of fiber, we're required to say that it contains four grams of total fat per serving. Obviously, that's all amazing healthy fats from plants. So order yours today at zoe.com slash daily 30. Thanks for listening and see you next time.