Most replayed moment: Ice Baths: Science or Fad? | Susanna Søberg & Prof Tim Spector

0:00Dr. Susanna Søberg:Hello and welcome to Zoe Recap, where each week we find the best bits from one of our podcast episodes to help you improve your health. Today, we're diving into one of the most requested topics we've ever had. Cold water therapy. Cold showers, ice baths and wild winter swimming have exploded in popularity over recent years, with supporters claiming a range of health benefits. But are these claims actually backed by science? Or is it all just another wellness fad? I'm joined by Dr. Susanna Soberg and Professor Tim Spector to break down the studies and discover if we could all do with a bit more ice in our life.

0:44Dr. Susanna Søberg:The cold plunge. What happens when I'm thinking about my own personal experience of going into the sea in England, which I've done once because it was way too cold. it's very unpleasant what's going on in your body as you do that yeah a lot of things are going on

1:01Prof Tim Spector:in your body when you go into the cold water it's very different from a cold shower also but we can get back to that so emerging yourself into cold water will mean that you will put this very very big stressor on your body because the body is in a natural temperature you don't want to get too cold, but this is so potent because it surrounds your body immediately with no air, of course. So the potent of activating your cold receptors in the skin is like 100%. And that is like a huge stressor sending a rapid signal to your brain that now you are definitely in a situation where you are in danger, actually.

1:45Prof Tim Spector:So the body acts as if you are in danger, even though you do it deliberately. and sends a signal to the brain to regulate your body so that you can better survive this. So it sends out noradrenaline to activate your brown fat.

2:00Dr. Susanna Søberg:And Susanna, can you explain exactly what is brown fat?

2:04Prof Tim Spector:We have two kind of fat tissues also in the body. And one of them is the white fat, which we know it's on our belly, it's on our thighs, and we want to get rid of that because it can grow and it's so difficult to activate it and get rid of those fat pearls, you can say, because it's all fat pearls just stuck together. So that stores our energy in the body. Quite opposite to that, we have the brown fat. The brown fat actually increases our metabolism. So the brown fat can burn the white fat. So it's kind of like a good fat. And we could say that white fat is a bad fat, but we also need some of that white fat.

2:44Prof Tim Spector:But the brown fat we want to increase so that we can have a higher metabolism or energy expenditure, both when we are purposely activating it, but also when we are just sitting here or when we are asleep. The more we have of the brown fat, the better. It's just like you can compare it to the muscles. So we all agree and know today that it's good to have a lot of muscle mass because there's a lot of mitochondria in the muscle fibers. And the more we have of those, the better it's functioning and it increases our insulin sensitivity. And it's the same with the brown fat cells. The more we have of brown fat cells, the more mitochondria we have, the better insulin sensitivity we have.

3:29Prof Tim Spector:And also it can burn more fat in our body, not only when we are activating it on purpose, but also when we are just like sitting here. So our basic metabolic rate will actually go up if we have more brown fat. Brown fat has been one of these research areas for hundreds of years that we have known about, but it was not until actually the millennium that we discovered that a little bit of cold exposure could actually change our metabolism. So our glucose balance and our insulin sensitivity in humans. And this is so fascinating. It's a study from 2014 showing where the researchers had people who had a bad insulin sensitivity, and some of them were obese and some of them had type 2 diabetes.

4:20Prof Tim Spector:And they had them sleep in a room which was 24 degrees Celsius for a month, and then they measured their brown fat. Then they slept at 19 degrees for a month and then again measured their brown fat and also insulin sensitivity. And what they found was that sleeping in a room at night at 19 degrees Celsius actually increased their insulin sensitivity and their glucose clearance got better. And when you then looked at the measure of the brown fat, you can see that it had increased. And that was just from sleeping at 19 degrees in a cold room for a month.

5:00Dr. Susanna Søberg:Susanna, I'd love to switch to actionable advice now. So if someone's listening to this, they've never done it before, they didn't grow up in Scandinavia, so they weren't wild swimming and jumping into a sauna the other time. How can they integrate this into their lives? And I'm also very interested in how can they start if they might be a cold sissy like me?

5:24Prof Tim Spector:Yeah, so if you are a cold sissy like you or me, I think the best thing you can do is don't think too much about it, actually. If you want to try it out, then go and try it out, but don't have expectations like I have to sit there for a while. This is not a competition. Cold exposure is an inner journey. So you use some kind of cold exposure. I would say a cold plunge is definitely a good place to go if you have that, the ocean if you have that, or if you don't, then a cold shower is also fine to get started. So a 30-second cold shower, use your nose to calm your nervous system. So breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth if you need to.

6:16Prof Tim Spector:and if you can switch totally to nasal breathing, that will help your nervous system to calm down as well. And you can use that also with cold plunging. So breathe in through the nose to calm the nervous system and never do any hyperventilating breath work before or during your cold plunges. That is also, I think, important to note. And head dunking, please don't do that because that would just decrease the blood flow to the brain. And it actually also increases the risk of fainting. And we also don't want that. And you have no extra benefits of putting your head down in the water. You can splash some water to the face, which will activate the vagus nerve.

7:02But dunking your forehead down doesn't do any health benefits for you.

7:07Prof Tim Spector:So take it slow and feel what is good for you. Breathe through 10 seconds and that is fine. but try to get over the cold shock. That is the goal.

7:15Dr. Susanna Søberg:So try and get past the first 30 seconds.

7:18Prof Tim Spector:Yeah, I think the cold shock is, it might actually be a little bit longer than that for new people. It could be up to one minute and for some one and a half, depending on, yeah, how cold adapted you actually are in the first place. So back to the question that Jonathan asked. So how different is this from people to people? And it can be actually very different. So if you are used to being much outside, for example, then you get very quickly adapted. But if you are not very much outside, an outdoors person, then you would take a little bit longer to get adapted to the cold. So be gentle to yourself and don't compare yourself to others.

7:57Dr. Susanna Søberg:And I like to have a sauna first, but does it make much difference, do you think?

8:02Prof Tim Spector:You can, Tim, start with the sauna. And I mean, people should do it the way that they feel is best for them. But if you start in the cold water, you will have that increase in oxytocin, noradrenaline, dopamine will change how you sit in the sauna because it's sort of like a place where you meditate also.

8:20Dr. Susanna Søberg:In order to get the health benefits, do I need to combine a cold plunge and a hot sauna together?

8:27Prof Tim Spector:No, you don't have to combine them. The thing about alternating between one extreme temperature and the other, like this cold plunge in the sauna is that you push your cardiovascular system and that is a workout for all your blood vessels. That is one thing, but also going from one extreme to the other will push your cells to either activate to generate heat or to shut down. And that is also a workout for your body. So in that sense, it has benefits doing it together. But if you just do cold plunges on one day and saunas on other days, that is also getting the benefits. It's just more like divided, you can say.

9:08Dr. Susanna Søberg:Susanna, can I ask, our US listeners will know all about cryotherapy. And I was in Los Angeles recently, and every shopping mall has a cryotherapy center now. So you can just hop in and do your three-minute cryotherapy session and go back to work. So it's incredibly practical. You don't have to find a lake in the middle of a city and shiver away. And it's reversed because you go in and the first 30 seconds are quite fun. And then it gets progressively colder because it's minus 100 degrees in this freezer. And you come out after three minutes. This last 30 seconds are tough. But I got a similar buzz after it.

9:53Dr. Susanna Søberg:But I wonder, is there any science behind the difference? Is it as impressive as the cold water stuff?

10:00Prof Tim Spector:So there are studies showing that the cryotherapy also activates your cold receptors, which means it also activates the brown fat. And I think that it's the three minutes with these extreme temperatures, it would definitely help on your metabolism. But of course there are differences because when you submerge into cold water, you also have that hydrostatic pressure from the water, which...

10:28Dr. Susanna Søberg:Yeah, and I didn't feel I was going to die either. That was the other thing. So I didn't get the gasping or the sort of life-threatening feel of it.

10:36Prof Tim Spector:It's not because the body needs to feel like it's dying in order for you to get the benefits. You do get some benefits, and I do think that the cryo actually has benefits. It's just another modality. It's just another dose that you get. But you can say when you submerge into cold water, that is surrounding yourself with like the 100 % molecules around your body in cold. You cannot be packed more into cold. So that's, of course, more potent to activate your metabolism and of course, also all your chemistry in the brain.

11:06Dr. Susanna Søberg:So we had another common question around this, actually, which is, does a cold shower work at all or does it need to be like a full plunge into icy water?

11:17Prof Tim Spector:So cold showers work because you do get cold, of course, and you activate your cold receptors. There's a study, a randomized control study from the Netherlands showing that if you do that for 30 seconds, end your showers on 30 seconds cold showers, you will have less sick days at work. It might be that it's not because you actually get less sick. It might actually be that you just get more energy to go to work. I'm not sure about what exactly is going on there, but it's definitely not a bad thing that you feel fresh enough to go to work. So it will activate your cold receptors, your brown fat.

11:56Prof Tim Spector:It will also activate noradrenaline and dopamine, and you will get that increase in your sympathetic nervous system. But it's probably not going to activate your parasympathetic part of your nervous system. And that is kind of what I would like people to experience, that they have this kind of stress up and also the stress down.

12:16Dr. Susanna Søberg:As you can imagine, hosting this podcast, running Zoe, juggling family life, it all keeps me pretty busy. So I try as best I can to stay energized and show up well in all those parts of my life by fueling my body with the right food, by exercising, and by adding a scoop of Daily 30 to my meals every day. If you haven't heard of Daily 30 yet, it's the gut supplement designed by our gut health scientists here at Zoe. It's made of over 30 high quality hand-picked plants, including seaweed, fungi, and different types of fiber. Better yet, it contains ingredients that support gut health, digestion, and energy, which is ideal for packed calendars and busy lives.

12:59Dr. Susanna Søberg:Simply add one scoop a day to any meal for an extra boost of fiber and plant diversity. And because it tastes delicious on just about anything and adds a satisfying crunch, it quite quickly slots into your life, becoming a daily healthy habit you'll always have time for. By the way, whenever we talk about Daily 30 as a good source of fiber, we're required to say that it contains four grams of total fat per serving. Obviously, that's all amazing healthy fats from plants. so order yours today at zoe.com daily 30 thanks for listening and see you next time