No.1 Protein Scientist: Are you eating enough? | Prof. Stuart Phillips & Dr. Federica Amati

23:54Dr Federica Amati:I'm assuming enormous amounts of protein at this point. But remember, you're very small, right? That's true. So grams per kilo, it's actually sort of about 1.2, 1.5, something like that. So at the time of your life that you experienced the biggest and best growth you ever had, you did it with a pretty low protein intake. Is that breast milk that you're describing to us? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Nature's got it right, yeah. That's a fascinating way to start with it. some of our listeners won't realize, but this is a really charged debate. So if you're really into nutrition science and you talk to a lot of people, this is one of those areas where people get really worked up about this number.

24:34Dr Federica Amati:I feel that there will be a set of people listening to this and saying, oh, but those numbers, they're clearly too low. And I think about like my first experience going to the gym and my trainer, I was in my thirties already. I'd never lifted anything. It was like, okay, well, one of the critical things you now need to do is eat two grams per kilogram in order to get any benefits. Why is there this debate and where does this come from and why are you so confident? And maybe also why, on the other hand, you feel that 0.8 number was too low. Maybe just give us a bit more of this because I think that will help us all to feel confident in the answer?

25:13Sure. It is charged. I think that there's a lot of people who, myself included, have invested a lot of time into doing investigations and sort of looking for the answer to this. I think starting out with the recommended dietary allowance, recommended nutrient intake. So it's established with a method called nitrogen balance. And it's essentially exactly as it sounds, the balance of nitrogen, which is that we've already decided the essential thing that makes protein protein or amino acids amino acids and it's how much you take in all your food and all your drink and how much you excrete and so i do think and i could be wrong here that i may be one of the few people who's still active in doing protein who's actually done a wonderful nitrogen balance experiment and we collected everything we collected urine we collected feces we did sweat wash downs on people after they had exercised it like it's so much fun They're delightful studies to conduct.

26:10And the balance of nitrogen should be, if your protein in and out, it should be zero. The problem with nitrogen balance is that from a physiological standpoint, there is nothing that I can say about your physiology when you're in nitrogen balance. And there is this issue of if we give people more and more and more protein, that the balance of nitrogen gets increasingly positive, which should mean that you're retaining more and more nitrogen. We've already said we don't do that, so we can't really explain why that happens. We've got some ideas, but those two, I'll just call them observations to me, really indicate that the methodology is not particularly good.

26:57So, you know, fast forward to 2025, we've got some methodologies now that I think are better. The problem is in science is coming to some degree of agreement about how good those methodologies are. And I'll be honest about that. So not everybody agrees. But we do have some observational studies looking at people's protein intakes. And if they are a little bit higher than the RDA, as people get older, they tend to have better muscle mass, they tend to have better mobility, they tend to be a little bit stronger, and they maybe have a small survival advantage. But is it so high that the protein intakes that are twice the RDA are better?

27:43I don't think that's the case. So the RDA, I think, is too low. Higher than the RDA is better, but how much higher? That's really difficult to determine. And I think it's the difference between what do you require, i.e. need, and what is optimal, what is better. And nutritionally, to give you another example, I'll say it the British way, vitamin C, not vitamin over here, but vitamin C was recognized for a long time for its ability to obviously prevent you from getting scurvy. And who wants to get scurvy, right? No thanks. But the recognition was that consuming more vitamin C over and above what you needed to prevent scurvy was good.

28:27And that was added to the intake to say, this is good. You get better immune function. Smokers need more. But that extension hasn't happened for protein. And there's probably lots of reasons for that, not the least of which would be the disagreement about how we replace nitrogen balance as a method to determine protein requirements.

28:49Dr Federica Amati:That's super interesting. I think what's also important is that our ability to maintain nitrogen balance changes over our life course. And when we're challenged with lower protein intake, our bodies become more efficient at maintaining the nitrogen balance. Because protein is so important, our metabolism adapts to make sure we get what we need. And so actually, there is also evidence to show that if you decrease protein availability in the diet, if you're under the age of 65, you still have this metabolic flexibility to maintain nitrogen balance with lower protein intake. You've used this word nitrogen balance both of you a couple of times, and I haven't followed the link between that and the amount of protein.

29:32Can you just unpack that? Well, so in simple terms, it's protein in minus protein out. So if protein in is greater than protein out, it means that you're retaining protein. So we can forget about nitrogen and just call it protein if you want. If protein in, protein out are balanced, we're good. Like we're eating the right amount and we're excreting the same amount, all good. The negative situation, protein out is exceeding protein in. We're losing protein from some pool. Chances are we're losing it from muscle. I think as Federica has already said, cancer, weight loss, GLP-1 induced weight loss, for example.

30:08And I think in those situations, you have to realize is that muscle is lost, but then, you know, maybe some other processes and leaning on a term called adaptation are being sort of down-regulated and we're able to then come back into nitrogen balance because we have this amazing adaptive capacity to withstand, if you like, lower protein intakes. Probably, again, realizing the essential nature of protein for normal physiological function.

30:40Dr Federica Amati:So if I'm in protein balance, which was your nitrogen balance, does that mean I am getting all the protein that I need? That's correct. In situations where maybe I am getting less protein, my body might make adjustments so that actually it can now cope with this lower level of protein. I'm in balance. So you're saying both of you actually have not really got a problem. It's like I've sort of become more efficient somehow at using this. For some time, right? But then if you prolong that and you don't have enough protein for too long, then you start to run into troubles where you don't get enough protein.

31:15Dr Federica Amati:But your body tries really hard to maintain balance for as long as it can. Some of the studies I've seen is like about six weeks. Is that about right? Yeah, I mean, we reestablish when we're in negative protein balance, we reestablish zero protein balance pretty quickly. And so what that means to come back to the Lego building block analogy is that the processes that are using those building blocks have kind of slowed down. And you probably have a period of time where you're flexible and you can withstand that. It's not a big deal. But if your protein intake goes too low for too long, then that's when these adaptive processes become, if you like, an issue and you begin to tap into proteins that are in your muscle and maybe immune function gets a little bit lower.

32:03But I think that it's probably fair to say that the RDA is pretty good. I'll just call it a baseline estimate. And I'm not suggesting that it's two, three, four times the RDA, which I think a lot of people are out there saying this is where you need to aim. But it's at least, I think, about 20 % to 50 % higher than what most people recommend.

32:25Dr Federica Amati:I'd love to talk about different groups now. Maybe firstly, are there particular groups that are at more risk of not getting enough protein and where these numbers of sort of you were saying 1.2 maybe is too low? Yeah. So as we mentioned earlier is children. So children have a high protein requirement. So where there is no access to food, children are at real risk of protein malnutrition. I will say again, this is really only really seen in low income countries. So children in the UK and the US luckily have access to food to get enough protein. And then later in life, it's after the age of 65, you start to see that there is this increased requirement for protein intake.

33:08Dr Federica Amati:And it's a combination of, as Stuart said, like sarcopenia, so muscle mass loss, reduction in appetite. Also, we become a little bit less efficient at absorbing it, a little bit less efficient at like getting it into the tissues it needs to go into. So the whole picture then means that actually increasing that recommendation in these groups is important. And then within older the people, those who have chronic illness, so people who have a higher requirement for their immune function, if they have higher inflammation levels, that also requires additional protein. And we've touched on cancer patients, which is actually a group where not enough protein can actually be the difference between life and death quite a lot of the time.

33:48Dr Federica Amati:Yeah. Those groups, I think, have I missed anyone? No, I think that's a pretty good summary. You know, to come back to Jonathan's 17-year-old son, the belief there would be, of course, because you're gaining so much muscle is that somehow protein is going to, you know, be the limiting step for that. You know, we've done a lot of work in this area and I can say with pretty good confidence that the big driver and by big like capital B-I-G is lifting weights. Like protein never really limits your muscle gains unless you're preparing for a bodybuilding competition. So they're desperately trying to lose weight, but they're trying to hang on to their muscle.

34:27And, you know, that's a scenario, but it's not the scenario that most people are in. So let's just say weightlifting is the big thing as opposed to the protein.

34:36Dr Federica Amati:I was just describing the scenario when I first went to the gym and my trainer says, you know, you need to eat two grams per kilogram. And it's not like he just made that up off the internet. So this is like very strongly embedded in a lot of physical trainers. So I'd love to discuss a bit more. When does this cutoff come to? So what is the number that you are saying if I'm going to the gym? And is that like, if I go to the gym three times a week, what about if I'm going every day? Like, what is the number that actually you should be hitting? Yeah. So to be really, really clear about this, going to the gym and lifting weights, if you're trying to gain muscle, or if you're older and trying to prevent the loss of muscle is the categorically the primary stimulus that's going to result in muscle growth, or retention of muscle as you age.

35:30Protein helps, but the analogy I like to use is that lifting weights bakes the cake and protein is that thin layer of icing, as delicious as it is across the top of the cake. Or maybe it's even the sprinkles on the icing, I'm not sure. So it's a small dressing on top of that. If you're one of these hardcore folks and you're doing CrossFit and you're hitting the gym three and four times, maybe that you do have an increased requirement for protein. There's a lot of wear and tear that goes on in your body that you probably need to replace some of those damaged proteins. And I think it could be as high as about 1.6 grams per kilo.

36:10So that's twice the RDA. And I know a lot of people will say, wow, that sounds like a lot, but recognize that it's much below the two grams per kilogram or traditionally the 2.2 grams per kilogram, which the bodybuilders would say is the almost folklorish level of one gram per pound. And when we talk about overcooked concepts, then you asked me about things I changed my mind on. And this is one. We performed two, what are called meta-analyses, where we looked at a lot of the literature. And I remember one student of mine, he came back and he showed me and I'm like, that's not much at all for the extra muscle.

36:50And it really was one of the, I don't know, it was an epiphany moment, but it was this gradual realization that a lot of what I've been cracking the whip on, I'm like, I don't think that's actually right. And now, you know, it takes time to undo learnings, my own included. I've tried to get the message out that it's probably overdid it. But now that the, you know, the horse is out of the stable now. And so things have sort of gone radically off in terms of recommendations and intakes. And I think without any good science that backs it up. If you're anything like me, you feel your best when you've got a solid routine.

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38:39Dr Federica Amati:Be sure to sign up for the four-month subscription, not the 20-pound Daily 30 trial. And be quick. Our previous offers have sold out fast. are you saying by far the most important thing is like how hard i'm working in the gym absolutely for determining my ability to put on these muscles and as long as i'm not sort of really really deficient in protein actually it doesn't make a very big difference you know if i was eating one gram per kilogram i'm probably still going to get a lot of the muscle gain from the You may get all of it at one gram. It might take you a little longer, but I'm actually, you know, the thought experiment is how much difference that number makes.

39:23And I'm, you know, I'm sheepishly saying it maybe not as big a deal as we once thought.

39:29Dr Federica Amati:And you're saying it sheepishly because if I'd interviewed you 20 years ago, what would you have said 20 years ago? The younger, maybe better looking version of me, Les Wrinkle definitely would have said, no, no, Jonathan, you need to get, you know, this intake and it would have been at the higher end. I'm less and less convinced that's the case. And more with the aging population where they're retaining muscle and everybody's sort of aging wins. And it's the question of whether you age like this with muscle or you age like this. And you only require a little bit of protein to make that happen.

40:02But once you begin to lift weights, it's like, it's the magic that makes you really hang on to muscle or if you're a young person to gain muscle.

40:11Dr Federica Amati:So if you're not going to the gym, there's like no magic to like eating more protein than most people have. You're not going to get any benefit. If you are going to the gym regularly, so I think you were saying three, four, five times a week. Well, the recommendations are two sessions of resistive exercise. Your 150 minutes, that's the WHO. It doesn't matter where you are in the world, that's universal. So, you know, you've got to do both. I'm more of a lifter than I am a walker or a runner, but you definitely have to get both to get all the health benefits. And if you want to get like the optimal return out of that effort, and I have to say as someone, I don't love going to the gym, So I do feel like I'm definitely doing it for the benefits.

40:53Dr Federica Amati:I do sort of want to get - You're a mere mortal. You're doing your stick. I'm doing that. Then you're saying getting up to 1.6 grams per kilogram, if you're really working out that much, will get my optimal benefits on muscle. But actually what I'm hearing is like if I was down at one or 1.2, it might be a very small difference. And so I shouldn't obsess about this versus other things. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I'm just trying to make sure I've understood. I think that's a pretty good summary. I mean, the other analogy I've used is, you know, you dip a cloth in water and every time you turn it, the water that comes out is a benefit.

41:30So this is you going to the gym, the first sort of three, you know, lots of benefits. And the last little part here is that's where the protein comes in and you got to twist it pretty hard and you get a few drops out and that's the protein layer on top of all of this.

41:46Dr Federica Amati:Can I ask one last question on this? Yeah. Which is your own diet. So you do still go to the gym. I can tell that you work out for people on audio. You know, Stuart is in much better shape than you might pick up from his self-deprecating comments. How many grams a kilogram do you go for? I'm probably around 1.3 to 1.4 on most days. I definitely don't focus on protein. I do have a protein heavier meal, which like a lot of people is probably, you know, your dinnertime or suppertime meal, your last meal of the day. Give it the global definition. I think about it, but I certainly don't weigh things or obsess about it.

42:25I'm definitely a very mediocre athlete slash whatever, and I'm a mere mortal these days. I'm not training for anything other than to age well.

42:35Dr Federica Amati:And we haven't talked about one important thing is that the majority of adults get around 1.2 to 1.4 grams a day without trying. Like our diets have protein in them. But at the end of the day, most of us who are eating enough food, and I have to stress that. So if you're getting enough food, you're getting about 1.2 to 1.4 grams a day. Like that's the average for US and UK. This actually came up, I think, in one of my podcasts where someone said to me, you know, when you do exercise, do you find you're hungrier? And I was like, oh, I do. And they're like, what happens when you're hungry? And they're like, do you eat more food?

43:10Dr Federica Amati:And I was like, yes. and I assume out of this, just as a consequence of what you're talking about, that I'm gonna eat more total amount of protein as part, is this? Yeah, you're nodding. This is where Christopher Gardner and I, good friends, we agreed to disagree on a few things, but he makes a great point and it's a good one to sort of maybe keep in mind. You know, he's at Stanford University, so big US university and North American football players. So they eat a lot of food. I mean, these guys, they're big men. They're eating 3 ,000, 4 ,000 calories. And even if you ate 10 % of your energy intake at that sort of caloric intake as protein, and as big as these guys are, they're hitting 1.7, 1.8 grams per kilo without even trying.

44:00But Christopher's fondest saying is that there's a lot of protein supplements and everything. So then they are into the 2.3, 2.4 grams per kilo range, none of which I think is useful or doing anything for them, but other than reinforcing the belief that that's what they need. But it's almost without trying that it happens for, you know, very active people, particularly those that are, you know, trying to sort of bulk, if you like.

44:27Dr Federica Amati:Also, I do think, to your point, a lot of people think they're in this group. A lot of people think they're pro athletes or that their requirements are super high. And it's really a very small percentage of the human population that has these specific requirements for very hard to obtain goals. Earlier you said, Jonathan, if someone's not active, if they increase their protein, will that do any good? Not only will it not do any good, right, because it's not going to grow muscles for them if they don't move, it could actually be doing harm, especially in midlife. So what is quite consistent in the literature is that if people between the age of 50 and 65 get more than 20 % of the caloric intake from protein, they're actually at higher risk of chronic diseases, especially cancer.

45:07Dr Federica Amati:So if you're essentially not active at all and you're in that midlife zone, increasing your protein intake with supplements or just because you decided that steaks are the best food in the world, you could actually be doing way more harm than good. If you were confused about protein before you started this episode, you can be sure that your friends and family are in the same boat. So why not share this episode with them now? Then they can finally understand their own protein requirements to support their health as they age. I would like to move shortly into like, how do I turn all of this into practice for real around lunch?

45:43Dr Federica Amati:Before I do that, there are also lots of questions around sort of the timing and spread of protein. And I think that's also, again, encouraged by all of these big food manufacturers sort of suggesting that I need to have protein in everything now. And thinking back also to my first experience of going to the gym, I realized also, as well as the two grams per kilogram, the other thing that you said is you absolutely need to eat protein. I mean, I'm slightly making this up, but I feel like within 10 minutes of leaving the gym, because otherwise all of that hard work would be completely wasted. I'm cringing because that was probably me telling you that at some point.

46:16Is that right? It was your research from 20 years ago. To some degree. Unwittingly, I think we've contributed this narrative. And it's not just me. I'd name other names, but I'll let them remain innocent for now.

46:28Dr Federica Amati:Well, now I'm having the opportunity to sit opposite you, Stuart. So what is the advice around the timing of eating protein compared? Because you've already said you have to do some exercise with something heavy. So priority one is we got to go to the gym. If we don't do that, as Frederica mentioned, absolutely spot on. Nothing happens when you eat more protein. People talk about a satiety effect. I'm pretty lukewarm on that that happens unless you really ramp up your protein. So, you know, let's sort of forget about that for now and say, go to the gym. Then your daily protein intake, I like it in that 1.2 range.

47:07We can agree. Most people hit that. Some people don't, but most do. After that, the timing is this sort of, you know, and I hate to use the in the margins expression or, you know, majoring in the minors. It's one of these other, it's the last little twist of the cloth that you might get a couple of drips of benefit out. But it's certainly not something that would make me say, you know, immediately post-exercise, you need to get your protein. That concept, which was given the name probably about 15 to 20 years ago, the anabolic window, was tied more to the replenishment actually of muscle glycogen, which is muscle stored carbohydrate, than it was to protein metabolism.

47:53But a lot of us did some work in this area to try and see whether this was true. And there's a good friend of mine named Sean Arendt, who's down at the University of South Carolina. And he's written a paper called, instead of the anabolic window, it's the anabolic garage or garage door. So it's open for a long time and it's really, really big. In other words, it's probably open for about a day or a day and a half.

48:21Dr Federica Amati:So I can go to the gym first thing in the morning, eat very little protein until the evening. And if I ate something with lots of protein then, then I would still get the benefit from the exercise I did that morning. Good to go. Yep. Wow. You can tell my trainer straight after this. I know. I know. And I know as soon as I've said that, I'm like, God, am I going to upset some people now? All the post-workout shakes. I know. I just, and I run into these people and they're like, I heard you on that Zoe podcast. And I'm like, it's just science. I'm just telling you the science. Stuart, can I try the counter then?

48:55Dr Federica Amati:Because she'll say, sure, that's like fine. But like you're working hard and you want to get the best benefit. and so actually why wouldn't you take you know the extra few percent yeah so what if he said that would that change your advice and i think that's the writer uh you know i had the privilege of working with some very good athletes and you know for them it is it's all about the detailed details and so putting a medal around your neck and standing on a podium is not who this advice is four who might be sort of more pragmatic to begin the so-called recovery right away. And I get that. I understand it.

49:34For most folks out there in regular society doing regular things and just hoping to get to stay a little bit healthier, that type of detail and nuances, I think, it's an inefficient message. The big one should be just get enough protein, go to the gym, continue, carry on. I'd love to talk about protein sources now.

49:55Dr Federica Amati:Yes, I was about to say. Federico has been very patient on this, exactly. You told our researcher that this was something that you changed your mind on during the course of your career. Could you tell us sort of where you began and where you are today? Yeah. I mean, I think it's pretty self-evident. There are two, what I'll call the major scoring systems for protein. Essentially, they come down to how digestible the protein is. So there's a digestibility issue. And how many of these essential amino acids each protein has? When you look at it from that perspective, animal source proteins would be superior.

50:37In other words, they would have a higher score than plant source proteins. And everybody goes, oh, game over. You know, it's got a higher score. These, you know, they're the winner easily. And that was me 25 plus years ago. So fast forward, soy protein was the main plant protein that we had probably 15, 20 years ago. And we noticed that that's just not a whole lot different than, it's usually dairy-based proteins that we're converting and comparing. And now we're in a world where you've got access to a lot of plant-based protein sources. And the diversity is extraordinary compared to what it was 25 years ago.

51:17and we're beginning to conduct experiments. And we see very little difference between what happens with plant source proteins and animal source proteins. I would say that these are purified protein sources when we study this. And so we haven't studied whole diets. Well, actually, that's not true. We have, but I can't tell you about that yet. You know, have me on in another year, I'll tell you all about it. Definitely. Yeah. And I think it's fair to say that when we do that, that even exclusively vegan diets are, if you're judicious about how you plan your protein, you're covered. The closer you get to the RDA, however, and the older you are, then it could be problematic.

52:04And I think we sort of agreed is that those are populations for whom we probably need to pay attention anyway. Okay. So plant-based diets are, you know, just, it requires a little bit of planning, but for younger, middle-aged, especially active people, the differences between plant source and animal source proteins is, like, it's trivial. Another deep in the margins issue, in my opinion.

52:31Dr Federica Amati:Yeah. And this is, so we're talking about quality earlier in the quick fire question. So the The experiments that Stuart's referring to are like soy protein isolate, whey protein isolate. So these are like the pure protein. But when we then look at the protein package, when we think about foods, it's a combination of plant foods that then provide this digestible, indispensable amino acid score. I wrote it down. They actually provide the same score as, say, a chicken breast, right? So the key is combining plants that then gives you this really good score. And then we take a step further and we think, okay, when we're combining plants and when we're eating like legumes and nuts and seeds, you're not just getting those amino acids, you're getting the fiber, the bioactive compounds, the complex carbohydrates, which you don't get from the protein package in an animal protein.

53:24Dr Federica Amati:So actually now we're in a place where there's so much evidence, and this is where I get excited, right, that shows that if you switch some of your animal protein to plant protein, you're actually prolonging your life. You're increasing longevity. You're decreasing your risk of chronic disease because of this protein package that plants come in. People say that plants have incomplete proteins. They're poor quality. That's not true. The science is very clear. The importance of combining plants is where the magic happens. If there's a myth to be busted, and Federica just touched on it, and I hear this a lot too, and Christopher Gardner would tell you all about this, is that people say plants are deficient in these amino acids, and they're not.

54:04They might be low in certain amino acids, but they're not deficient. In fact, it's really hard to find a plant source protein that is deficient in amino acids. I find it fascinating to go around the world and in, I'll call them, food insecure regions or regions where there's not a lot of animal protein consumed. Regions of Southeast Asia, India, South America, the Caribbean. Everybody figured out that a grain and a legume together were good. I'm so glad you're impressed because I tell that to my undergraduate students and they just glaze over and look at me.

54:40Dr Federica Amati:I think that's fascinating. Could you help to explain it? Because I also slightly glazed over as you said. Could you help me to understand what you just said? It's the magic of food synergy. It is. It's incredible. I mean, it can only be that so many people in disparate geographic areas of the world have figured that out because there's an evolutionary pressure for it to happen. Like you survived. And so I'm trite when I say this, but the undergrads seem to resonate with it, is that grains are low in an essential amino acid called lysine. legumes are pretty rich in lysine but they're low in amino acids that are that contain sulfur there's two of them methionine and cysteine but grains are high in those and when you eat them together you're good to go you get the lysine that you need you get the methionine and cysteine that you need and so this is like mixing like beans and it's my beans and rice right it's it's lentils lentils and rice.

55:36Dr Federica Amati:Barley and lentils, it's spelt and your bolotti beans, right? So another thing that we've had a lot of listener questions about is the idea of an upper limit of protein absorption per serving. Is there truth in this? Do we need to spread out our protein intake? Oh, we contributed to the noise in this one. We can absorb a lot of protein. I mean, a lot, like hundreds of grams. And so there's no sort of upper limit on absorption. But we did publish a paper at one point that showed that when you ate 20 grams of protein, that was all that your body could efficiently use. When we doubled the dose and we went to 40, your body used a little bit more, but it was by no means double the response.

56:25And so everybody walked away saying, oh, well, 20 grams is all you can digest and absorb. And that's not the message. You can digest and absorb a lot more. Your body just can't utilize it. And when I say utilize it, I mean your muscle couldn't utilize it. So we probably confuse some people with that. But people have taken and run with the concept. But we can eat a lot of protein. I think, Federica, you mentioned that we're very good at absorbing protein. Rarely does it not get absorbed. There's a little bit. But as we get older, it does go down.

57:01Dr Federica Amati:if I ate lots of protein in one meal and not a lot later, actually that is going to deliver all the protein I need for my muscle growth and everything else over the next day. So this is like 20 grams. This is more to do with some sort of optimal thing, but actually I'm going to be able to use it all. Yeah. If you ate it in one big meal or you ate it in three meals, I don't think there would be a lot of difference. I think the advantage would go to the three meals. We do have a study going on that. And so again, a year or so from now, we'd probably be able to give you the answer. But the truth is you can digest a lot of protein.

57:38It's not capped out at 20 or 30 grams.

57:42Dr Federica Amati:Now, Federica, we have a lot of our older Zoe members who ask for advice on how to eat adequate protein without having to eat more food than they find actually they have appetite for. Do you have any simple tips for them? Yeah, increase nutrient density foods. So make sure that you're eating foods that provide essential protein and essential nutrients. So when I think about this, I think about things like beans and tofu and nuts and seeds and Greek yogurt. They're very nutrient dense, so they don't take up too much volume. When you have reduced appetite, that can be really helpful. I would love now to actually turn all of this advice into really clear, actionable advice about what I can put on my plate.

58:24Dr Federica Amati:maybe start with that, like the healthiest sources of proteins, what should our listeners be eating? Look, I mean, the traditional protein sources, everybody, I think could rhyme it off. They probably first say eggs, meat, poultry, fish, great sources of protein, lots of other nutrients in there. Awesome. I think eggs have been on the dirty list for too long. I think they're still a pretty good source of protein, affordable, lots of good nutrients in there. But I think we can now begin to talk about plant source proteins, so legumes, beans, pulses, these sorts of things, as a bioequivalent form of protein.

59:04You might have to eat a little bit more, but probably not so much more that you would worry about it. I think a meal where people, I don't say under consume protein, but that tends to be carbohydrate heavy is breakfast. And the trend these days, I'm sure it's the same in the UK, US, Canada, doesn't matter, Australia, is that there are lots of ultra-processed foods that are available at breakfast that really are doing everybody a disservice. I like to teach students that if we shopped on the outside of the grocery store, up the produce aisle, meat and dairy, grains, and stayed away from the middle where all the good tasting, highly addictive.

59:48High protein cookies. Yes, exactly. The protein ice cream, protein water, et cetera. We'd probably be a lot better off. So we eat real food, whole food. From that standpoint, then, I do like to talk a little bit more about protein at breakfast. My superfood at breakfast is Greek-style yogurt. So a little bit higher in protein than the regular yogurt. Probiotics, and it's a good breakfast food. Throw some nuts, throw some seeds, throw some fruit in there. It's probably my go-to breakfast just about every day. Yeah.

1:00:21Dr Federica Amati:And if you have Greek style yogurt and you add 200 mils of kefir, kefir is exceptionally high in protein, actually. Then as Stuart said, you have two teaspoons of chia, protein and fiber powerhouse plus omega-3 ALAs, some nuts and some fresh berries. You have got yourself between 20 and 30 grams of protein in that breakfast in a regular sized bowl. And it's such a great way to start the day. And so back to your point about eggs, eggs are great for breakfast too, right? And if you combine those with a bread that has whole grains in it, or even like a pumpernickel style bread, you can add some beans to that.

1:00:57Dr Federica Amati:You've got a great breakfast that packs protein, other bioactive nutrients, and fiber at the same time. So I think pivoting to thinking about how can we include not only protein, but also fiber, also probiotics, so fermented foods, all these things, then go back to this protein package. How can we make the most of these meals? And I think what's important to note is if we think about protein in a hierarchy of health impact, okay? So like at the bottom, you have these plant-based proteins. That should be the majority of where we get our proteins from whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts and seeds.

1:01:30Dr Federica Amati:And Federica, we've said this word legumes and pulses off. often. Beans and lentils. Chickpeas. Chickpeas, yeah. Peas, green peas. Navy beans. Edamame beans. But if you think about it, that's the majority of your protein. Then the next level up is kefir, yogurt. So fermented dairy is a great source of protein and it's good for us for lots of other reasons. Then the next level up for me is oily fish. Oily fish are the healthiest animal protein. So they have the omega-3 ALAs. They are consistently shown to improve longevity, cognitive function. They improve a lot of things. Then above that, you have eggs.

1:02:06Dr Federica Amati:So eggs are good for us. They're just not quite as good as fish, in my opinion, for a protein source. And then above that, you have white meat. Right at the very top, occasionally, you have red meat. And kind of off the pyramid to the side and should not be a source of protein every day is processed meat. I'm quite alarmed by the rise of beef jerky and other processed salamis as a healthy protein source. Processed red meat in no world is a healthy protein source. Processed red meat is a class one carcinogen, and it's consistently shown to be detrimental for health. So it should not be a daily protein source.

1:02:41Dr Federica Amati:So I think think about it in that order of how well is this going to serve me for longevity and for decreasing my risk of the long-term chronic diseases that really we're all trying to avoid, right? That's, I think that's a good, I've made that pyramid up, but I love it. I have no issues with that pyramid. I'll say about jerky is that if you're worried about your sodium intake, it's, yeah, stay away from jerky. I think what's interesting is that while the amount of protein that you're suggesting is higher than I think, you know, it has been the standard guidance. It's interesting that it still seems to line up very much with what we end up covering a lot on this podcast around like the ability to eat that with a diet that's really supporting your gut health and things like that.

1:03:24Dr Federica Amati:So I feel that's actually very positive. I would like to directly talk about protein supplements because I think that many people jump to protein supplements. And again, like when I first went to the gym, the consequence of all of that advice was, well, you need to eat all of this protein really fast and you've got this really high number. So, you know, start taking this protein supplement straight afterwards, which I did for a number of years. Now I really worry about it because I look at it and I see that like Zoe says, this is a high risk processed food. I gave that up as I started to understand in the last few years, like all these issues around processed foods, but obviously it gives you a lot of protein.

1:04:05What are your thoughts on that, Stuart? So pros and cons, the pros of a protein supplement, it's just protein. If it's protein powder and you don't have, you know, a lot of people are like, well, I don't want fat. I don't want carbs because, you know, they're going to kill you and et cetera. So yeah, I'm being trained, But you get my point. And maybe there's a time and a place for that. It's convenient. And when I deal with a lot of athletes who are in sort of different places, they don't have access to the foods that they would normally eat. So I'm like, check. Outside of that, it's really hard to think of too many pros.

1:04:40The cons are, as you point out, it's processed. It's stripped of other nutrients. I mean, I love your pyramid. I mean, the other part is we put the big umbrella over the top. I'm like, it's pretty delicious too, right? Like, you know, I mean, I think that we've lost a little bit of sight of food is an enjoyable commodity that we spend, you know, our time cooking and eating and with friends sometimes. And we focus on nutrition and its ingredients. But we all eat food. And I think maybe we've lost sight of some of the enjoyment that comes with eating food. So from that standpoint, when you look at some of the bars that are out there and you look at their contents and you look at the amount of sugar that is in them, the amount of sodium that's in them, I'm okay with those if you think that that's, you know, a snack.

1:05:29But, you know, just let's be clear that it's not a free pass and it's not, you know, a lot of people say, oh, it's healthier than a chocolate bar. And I'm like, well, if here's the chocolate bar, this is how much healthier the protein bar is. It might be a small nudge, but it's not like, you know, this is a free pass and this is super healthy. And, you know, hopefully we've made the point clear that that window and everything else is sort of overhyped in terms of its importance. And I know it's boring, but a food-first approach is going to serve you a whole lot better than any form of supplement will.

1:06:05I work with athletes, and I will say is that they go to supplements. and the number one reason for it is convenience.

1:06:11Dr Federica Amati:If you're having like a whey protein isolate or a soy protein isolate added to your smoothie that you're making yourself, there's less risk. But a lot of these supplements are high-risk foods. So if you have a Snickers bar, it's a high-risk candy bar. If you add protein to it, it's a Snickers bar with protein, but it's still a Snickers bar, right? Like it's not actually a good source of protein. The data is also really clear that the more of these foods, these high-risk processed foods you have, the more you're decreasing your chances of living a long and healthy life. So the study I love, the Tessiratel study in Nature, they calculated that ultra-processed food and high-risk food consumption gives you a 32 % lower odds of healthy aging.

1:06:51Dr Federica Amati:So when we think about protein supplementation, are you just adding whey protein isolate because you're an athlete? Or are you eating protein cookies? If it's B, if it's the protein cookies or protein Snickers bar, you're actually possibly actively reducing your healthy life years. It's not a good idea. So protein supplements, I think, is too broad a term nowadays. It's gone from being genuinely just added isolated protein to junk food that has got a protein health halo sprinkled on top. And that to me is just a no. I mean, the thing that I'm struck at the end of this is, once again, there's been a big role of big food companies into this story, right?

1:07:31Dr Federica Amati:Because you've talked about these individual foods has been really bad. And both of you are very aligned on that. But it's not just like randomly happened that you get the Snickers bar that says high in protein or the ice cream or any of these. And I think they play incredibly strongly to why there are so many listeners who contact us and ask. Because people see this all over the supermarket. They're like, oh, wow, I must be short of protein. And also, oh, so if I get the thing that's high in protein, that actually means that this food, whatever it is, is going to be good for me. And it's incredibly cynical.

1:08:06Dr Federica Amati:And there's usually a markup. People will pay 20 % more for the same product with added protein. Great, great moneymaker. Because whey protein isolate is super cheap. So you add that to your waffles, frozen waffles, and you're suddenly selling them for more money and making more money in the process. It's a complete marketing play, unfortunately. And it's not serving people's health. It's just serving profit margins at the moment. Final questions, Stuart. Like we've gone through lots and lots of advice. If I was going to ask you to speak to the listener and just give one simple actionable tip that they could take away right now that would start to make a change to make them healthier, what would it be?

1:08:50Does it have to be nutrition related? No, no, it doesn't. than exercise. It seems trite, but after years of doing this and essentially believing, thinking based on data that protein was more important than it was, I've come to the realization that it's the exercise that really drives the bus. And protein is a small part of the benefit that could accrue from doing the exercise. And that doesn't matter whether you're a runner or a lifter or anything, that's far more important than getting more protein in your diet. And enjoy food. Like I just think that we've obsessed around ingredients for too long and we've lost the sight of a little bit of what it means to sit down and make and then eat a good meal, whether it's by ourselves.

1:09:44I know it's not always motivating, having lived alone to cook for yourself, but particularly with other people, beginning to, the older I get, I think, you know, meals with friends, those are special times and should be cherished for sure.

1:10:00Dr Federica Amati:I would love people to start thinking about how they can replace some of the protein they're getting from animal foods, like processed meats, red meats, or to your point, Jonathan, snack foods, like protein supplement cookies, to healthier plant-based proteins that we know are going to improve longevity and outcomes in the long term. So how can you integrate more lentils, more beans? Can you try tofu or tempeh? Try different oily fish, like add mackerel to your shopping list, add some anchovies, some tin sardines, and just really see how you can integrate these healthy proteins into your everyday life and get rid of some of the ones that are likely to be doing more harm than good.

1:10:37Dr Federica Amati:I'm going to try and do a summary at least of the key things that we covered. I I think my starting point is the recommended daily protein intake, which is sort of 0.8 grams per kilogram, is too low. And so that is really interesting. The second big thing I'm taking away is you have to lift something heavy to get any benefit from protein. So if you're listening to this and you're not lifting anything heavy, don't get tricked into all of these products saying eat more protein because it's not relevant. The question is, what could you do to lift something heavy in order to use it? But the next thing on my mind, and Federico, I know you've been doing a lot of work on this, is like the right amount of protein for you is personalized.

1:11:18Dr Federica Amati:There isn't just one single number. And that's, I think, part of the reason, Stuart, you're talking about, you know, this recommended daily intake being too low. So you're saying, you know, for regular healthy adult, it might be like 1 to 1.2. So it's like a bit higher than the number that we've described. But in certain cases, and you're particularly talking about people as they're getting much older because it's harder to absorb this and it's so important to protect them, it might be higher. You know, when you're very young, you were describing like what you get in breast milk and it's a bit higher.

1:11:48Dr Federica Amati:But in no cases is it as high as we've been hearing a lot from sort of influences and indeed from the trainers if we go and see them. And so, you know, I think your own intake is really interesting. You say sort of 1.3 to 1.4 and you're obviously serious about wanting to protect your health than going to the gym, if you're working out a lot and you're talking about this is the CrossFit, this is the power athlete, hardcore, the person who's optimizing this at the very best, is at 1.6. So again, like still well below the two. So even if you're aspiring to that, that's sort of 1.6. The big thing that you've changed your mind about is this idea that the only way you can sort of solve for your protein intake is for eating lots and lots of meat.

1:12:32Dr Federica Amati:and that actually that's really a myth. And it turns out that plants are not deficient in amino acids, but you can't just eat one plant. So you've got to eat this sort of balanced diet. The timing is not a big concern. So again, unless you are literally competing for your country, you don't need to worry about eating protein immediately after your workout, which again reduces some of this pressure, I think, to eat these protein shakes. Because if you're out and about, right, then you sort of have to do it immediately. But if you've got more time, then I think it comes into play. And then I think you talked about some really practical things, which I thought was really great.

1:13:08Dr Federica Amati:Like you could think about breakfast where you're probably not eating a very healthy diet and you may not be getting very much protein. Greek style yogurt mixed with kefir, which I had not realized was particularly high in protein as well. But also like eggs, eggs and whole grain bread. That's a fantastic breakfast. So breakfast being one of those things you could really change to like improve both health and protein. And then in general, There are these obvious things we think about being protein, like eggs and maybe oily fish and dairy. Those are good. But actually there are all of these things like legumes and pulses as your chickpeas and lentils and beans that actually have lots of protein in.

1:13:45Dr Federica Amati:And I was worried you were going to tell me I wasn't getting enough protein, but actually I think it sounds like I'm going to be okay. Yeah. The odd part again about the complementation that we talked about, about the grain and the legume or the bean is these days, because in past times when people had to do that, the legumes were the rate limiting thing. They were hard to find. Now we can get them almost everywhere. And there's a variety of different sources. It used to be it was, you know, there were two different types of beans and there were peas. Now it's all kinds of things. So I, you know, I think that that's an important point.

1:14:22The pairing with the grain, it might be tasty. It's actually not necessary if you eat enough legumes.

1:14:29Dr Federica Amati:But it makes a great base for any meal. If you have a legume and a grain, you know, quinoa, peas, beans and barley, spelt and lentils. It's just instant, instant pairing. If we could take the protein out of quinoa, it has the same protein quality score as milk. Huh. Yeah, there you go. Amazing. As you can imagine, hosting this podcast, running Zoe, juggling family life, it all keeps me pretty busy. So I try as best I can to stay energized and show up well in all those parts of my life by fueling my body with the right food, by exercising, and by adding a scoop of Daily 30 to my meals every day.

1:15:11Dr Federica Amati:If you haven't heard of Daily 30 yet, it's the gut supplement designed by our gut health scientists here at Zoe. It's made of over 30 high-quality, hand-picked plants, including seaweed, fungi, and different types of fiber. Better yet, it contains ingredients that support gut health, digestion, and energy, which is ideal for packed calendars and busy lives. Simply add one scoop a day to any meal for an extra boost of fiber and plant diversity. And because it tastes delicious on just about anything and adds a satisfying crunch, it quite quickly slots into your life. becoming a daily healthy habit you'll always have time for.

1:15:50Dr Federica Amati:By the way, whenever we talk about Daily 30 as a good source of fiber, we're required to say that it contains four grams of total fat per serving. Obviously, that's all amazing healthy fats from plants. So, order yours today at zoe.com slash daily30. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

1:16:16We'll be right back.