Plant protein and strength: all you need to know | Simon Hill & Dr. Will Bulsiewicz

27:53And we know that cooking, so soaking and cooking grains and beans actually makes the protein significantly more bioavailable. So a lot of those earlier studies from the 70s, 80s, and 90s looking at differences in absorption from animal to plant protein overestimated the difference because the plant proteins were not prepared as you and I would actually consume them. And since then, there's been human studies and although we haven't yet tested every single plant protein, um what the data that we do have suggests that any difference in bioavailability is probably only a few percent and that's written quite clearly in in Christopher Garden's paper but what I would say to people is we can run the risk of getting too reductionist here and thinking about percentage bioavailability and chart it out and say oh you know eggs are slightly better than than tofu so So let's eat more eggs.

28:56Well, I would say, what do you care more about? The bioavailability or absorption percentage, or do you care more about heart health outcomes? So building strength and muscle or reducing your risk of developing a disease. Because when we zoom out and look at health outcomes and you compare a diet that is getting exclusively protein from plants to an omnivorous diet, as long as total protein is high enough, what we'd say is optimal, there is no difference in hypertrophy, so the building of muscle or strength. And there is more than one randomized controlled trial now that has looked at that in both male and female adults.

29:47A study out of Brazil and then another one last year or the year before out of Canada, which has actually changed the view of a lot of the main researchers in the protein space who previously thought at the same protein level, intake level, animal protein would be superior for those health outcomes. So for me, when I'm kind of deciding what protein sources I'm going to have, I'm not getting so caught up in the bioavailability percentages. I care more about my ability to build muscle, recover, and lower my risk of having a heart attack or a stroke. And it's so consistent across the body of research that from a performance point of view, you can get just as good results with plant protein as animal protein.

30:37But the real big benefit, the benefit that's up for grabs here is that as you swap calories from animal protein for plant protein, you dramatically reduce your risk of chronic disease. And so you improve your odds of healthy aging, which brings us back to the beginning of the conversation when we were talking about optimizing for two things at once. Right. And that's an approach that requires no compromise, right? Because basically what you're saying is that you can achieve your fitness goals with an adequate amount of protein intake, yet simultaneously advance your longevity goals, improve your life expectancy by making choices that are oriented towards more plant-based protein.

31:22I mean, I think the message there is really clear, but I haven't managed to land this with my son at all. So Simon, let me paint this picture and I'd love to hear what you would say. So my son is 16, right? So he's sort of going, he's shot up, you know, a year ago, he was shorter than me. Now he's much taller than me. He started to get interested in the gym in the last nine months or something. It's incredibly depressing because he goes to the gym, he lifts some weights, and the following day, his muscles have literally grown. And you were discussing this before, I'm laughing because at this point, I can't put any muscle on at all.

31:55It's not happening. But for him, it feels like it's sort of magical. And he's got really interested. He's really excited by this, which I think is very understandable, that he's starting to get stronger. He wants to be stronger than me or the rest of it. And he absolutely believes he needs to eat red meat because he wants to maximize this sort of growth that's going on. And we eat a very good diet at home, very much driven by myself and my wife in terms of what our Zoe app is telling us to eat. So he eats quite a lot of that. And then he's like, but I need to add steak around the side of it. I guess my question is, what's your message to him?

32:36And how would you be trying to take him on a pathway that reduces the red meat, which tends to come packaged in like a burger with fries, right? So it's like there's a whole package with this generally. And I'm thinking maybe he might listen to you because he certainly doesn't listen to me. Well, first of all, I was him. So I'm kind of speaking to myself here. Okay. And society has taught us if you eat muscle, you build muscle. and it kind of, you know, intuitively it makes sense. We can see that you take the muscle off an animal, you eat that and all of a sudden you're going to be, you know, Popeye, you know, these big bulging biceps.

33:15But what I would explain to him is that when you eat food that has protein in it, whether it is meat, whether it is a legume or tempeh, the body doesn't just absorb that protein. First, it breaks it down into amino acids and then they get absorbed into the bloodstream. So by the time those essential amino acids are floating around in the blood, Jonathan, they're not tagged. Oh, that leucine came from pork and that leucine came from beef and that leucine came from tempeh. At that stage, they're just amino acids. It doesn't matter where that came from. What's important is that you're getting enough of those nine essential amino acids into circulation.

33:58It doesn't matter where you're getting them from. If we're talking about a hypertrophy growing muscle point of view, I believe it matters a lot in terms of chronic disease because of all the other things that come in the protein package that influence chronic disease risk. But providing you're consuming enough total protein, you will be supplying enough of those nine essential amino acids into circulation to support the work that you're doing in the gym. And if he said to me, well, how do you know that? I would point to these clinical studies where they take healthy adults, like in Brazil, they took males in their 20s and got them on a resistance training program, had one group consuming all protein from plants.

34:43and this was a high protein diet, 1.6 grams per kilogram. And the other group, an omnivorous diet, 1.6 grams per kilogram. And they followed these people for 8 to 12 weeks. So they're 8 or 12 weeks. And along the way, they're doing the resistance training and they're measuring changes in muscle size and strength. And throughout that study, there was no significant differences between those young men who were eating an omnivorous diet, so they were getting protein from red meat, as you just mentioned there, and from white meat, fish, versus the group who was getting all their protein from foods like tempeh, tofu, lentils, etc.

35:29And so that's just further evidence for us that if you're consuming enough total protein, you don't need to be worried that somehow if that protein is coming from plants, it's inferior. A legume like an edamame bean isn't going to build muscle as good as a piece of steak. That's a myth. It's a story that we've told ourselves. And I understand how it feels intuitive. And I was there once. But when you understand the physiology, you realize that that's not a fear that we need to hold. All right. Well, I will see whether I can convince him on this. I think when I do, he will immediately say then, well, all right, then I really do need to know though, which of the plants that I need to eat that are going to have those high levels of protein.

36:21Because in his case, I think he is in that rare group of people who is putting on a lot of muscle and is doing quite a lot of exercise, not just in the gym, which I know you've talked about, But also, you know, he's like going off to school, carrying all his heavy books, you know, like he's physically just a lot more active than, you know, I suspect most of us are in our adult lives. So that brings us back to that main food group is going to be legumes. Tofu and tempeh are really protein-dense plant-based foods. Then we can kind of move further along the spectrum to chickpeas and lentils and all the different varieties of beans.

37:03There are some other foods like seitan. If someone is not sensitive to gluten or celiac that contains gluten, that's very protein dense. A lot of plant-based bodybuilders will consume seitan. It's not for everyone, but if you can tolerate gluten, then that might be one that you want to include as well. The plant-based milks and yogurts that are high in protein, you're going to be getting protein from all your fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds as well. And then typically bodybuilders are having a protein supplement for convenience or also from a society point of view. It can be difficult to eat enough protein.

37:48People often feel too full to eat another meal. So in this instance, you'd be swapping out a dairy kind of whey protein concentrate or whey protein isolate for some type of plant-based protein like a pea protein isolate or a rice protein isolate or a blend of the two. And by focusing on those foods I mentioned, plus the addition of a protein shake, he should comfortably be able to get to 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kilogram of body mass as his protein intake per day, which is, you know, the evidence suggests is more than enough to actually help support that muscle remodeling that we were talking about, so to support the training that he's doing and get the adaptations that he's looking for.

38:45But at the same time, all that protein is coming with the fiber, with polyphenols, it's low in saturated fat, doesn't contain dietary cholesterol, doesn't contain heme iron, And it's all of these things that coalesce to provide a more favorable environment or a shift in biomarkers that predict risk of cardiometabolic disease. So he's going to be in the gym competing with his friends, setting records, building muscle, but he's also protecting his future. Yeah. Coming at this as a, as a dad, uh, with kids, sometimes they need to come to this decision on their own. And so you have to sort of put them in a position where they can discover the information that they're looking for.

39:37And then basically like it was their idea. They came up with it in the first place. Um, and I can't help, but think about the fact that all of these foods that Simon is mentioning, legumes, specifically tofu and tempeh, seitan, which by the way, thank you for mentioning that most people don't realize that gluten is actually a protein. So this gluten-rich food is actually protein-based or plant-based milks like organic soy milk, nuts and seeds, all these different things. These are the same foods that are prioritized in a Zoe-oriented diet. And I do think that there is this value where Zoe is not necessarily designed specifically to talk to people who desire to be a bodybuilder, but it helps to give you sort of the nutritional foundation that you're looking for, that you can build from in terms of understanding why you would be eating more plants and that motivation that comes from that, or understanding how eating more plants impacts your gut microbiome.

40:33And earlier, Simon, you mentioned, and I thought this was interesting. I didn't want to interrupt you. You mentioned that there is a bi-directional relationship between fitness and cardiometabolic health. And I actually, in my mind, I can't help but think this way. I wanted to pop in and say, I see it as a tri-directional relationship. The third party is the gut microbiome. And we know that the gut microbiome, and we've seen this in our work at Zoe, is connected to cardiometabolic disease. And we have our method study that shows that by basically changing, I mean, it's a whole package. It's not just the gut microbiome, but we show that we can basically improve these metabolic risk factors.

41:15But there's also an entire body of literature that's completely separate that connects the gut microbiome to our muscle, where we could go so far as to say that there's a gut microbiome muscle axis where they're in communication with one another. And what we see is that like, whether it be mouse models or human studies, a healthier gut is present when people exercise. Also, a healthier gut is associated with muscle mass. And that if you were to deprive, for example, a mouse where it's easier to do these studies, if you deprive a mouse of a healthy gut by giving it antibiotics, it loses muscle mass.

41:56And so I think that there's this broader picture that needs to be seen that you've been mentioning that we get into a tunnel view and yet we have to zoom out and see this bigger picture of we can accomplish all these goals. So to me, one of the thoughts, Jonathan, that I have as I think about your young man in your house is like, he's not going to want to listen to you. That's the reality. And if I were his dad, it's not you. If I were his dad, he wouldn't listen to me either. But I do think that he's someone who does want to do it right. He has that motivation and he has to in some ways find it on his own.

42:29And maybe that's where these types of things can help like Zoe. That's interesting. So really I should get him to do Zoe and then because it's not listening to me. It was exactly the same story with my wife, though. She didn't listen to what I said either until she did Zoe and suddenly gave all this advice and she changed all of her diet. So I was struck that you, Simon, you were talking about some plants that are really familiar, like nuts or lentils. People know what they are. But then you mentioned things like tofu and tempeh, which until a few years ago, I had never heard of. And Will, you were just talking a bit about how someone might be helped to understand how to use this.

43:09How can you be better able to make this adjustment where a lot of the foods that we're talking about are not necessarily the foods that we grew up being fed by our parents and maybe are not the foods we're used to being surrounded by? I would say that the first kind of thing to understand here is that foods like tofu and tempeh, they really are a vehicle for flavor. And often we forget this. So we take out our favorite animal-based protein sources, like let's say chicken, that typically we would prepare a certain way. Maybe we have a favorite marinade or herbs and spices or things that we add to make that flavorsome to enjoy it.

43:51and we forget that and throw some tofu in the pan, maybe with a little bit of olive oil or tempeh, and we expect it to taste just as delicious. And certainly there are people out there who that is how they consume their tofu or tempeh. I like to add spices and cayenne pepper and cumin and paprika or turmeric for a tofu scramble, I think you need to be prepared to bring flavor into the dish to create, you know, whether it's like a Mexican flavor you're looking for or Japanese or Thai. So that is a little bit of a learning process at the beginning, but then you soon get your favorite combos and it's so quick to cook tempeh or tofu.

44:46It really requires very little preparation and cooking time. So that's just something new that you need to learn and just be cognizant of when you're trying these foods for the first time. Yeah, I think don't put too much pressure on yourself. So trying to make a hard transition all at once is quite overwhelming. And I don't know that anyone, like for most people, that's just not the way to approach this. I think that the better choice is to start off by setting very realistic expectations, something that you know you can accomplish and that's quite sustainable. So, you know, for example, like take this week and let's choose one meal and try something new and look for a recipe that you're excited about and that you believe will be delicious.

45:33Many times what I find to be delicious are ethnic-based foods. So Simon already mentioned this, but like there are cultures from around the world that use different spice patterns or different flavor profiles. And yet, foundationally, quite easy to create plant-based foods, whether you're in Japan or in Thailand or in India or in Italy or in Mexico. These are all different food cultures, yet they have plant-based foundations. So leaning into that and then working in these ingredients that Simon's describing, like tofu and tempeh, or just beans and lentils and things of that variety as well. You don't have to necessarily do the tofu and the tempeh.

46:17And you can even create some combination dishes. So perhaps you have your favorite lasagna recipe with minced meat. Take out half of the minced meat and add in lentils, things of that nature. So you're bringing in the plant-based protein sources in a manner where it's not all or nothing. and I think that's an important message here that Will just kind of alluded to. But the average person's protein intake, I mentioned earlier, it's about 1.2 grams per kilogram per day. 70 to 85 % of that is animal protein, right? So only 15 to 30 % of someone's daily protein intake is currently coming from plants.

46:57People can get significant improvements in cardiometabolic disease risk just by getting more towards 50-50. or maybe it's 25 % animal protein, 75 % plant protein. So I think that's kind of an important thing just for people to also keep top of mind. It's not an all or nothing play here. And in that study that I alluded to earlier, just very quickly, because I know we don't have time to dig right into the details. This came out last week, Jonathan. We always love an up-to-date study. Go on. This study came out of Walter Willis Group at Harvard. they enrolled nurses into a study back in the 1970s.

47:39And in this particular study, they looked at 40 ,000 plus women that had been tracked since that time up to today. So we're talking 40 plus years of tracking. And importantly, at the beginning of that study, these were people that were free from chronic disease. They had no memory impairment. They had good mental health, no physical function impairments. And they were able to establish how much protein these individuals were eating and where that protein was coming from. So was it coming from animal protein? They did a sub-analysis on dairy protein, or was it coming from plant protein? Over the 40 years, they completed this questionnaire every four years.

48:22So it wasn't like they just took data at the very start of the study and then assumed that's how people ate because let's face it, our diet changes a little bit over time. So the main take-home point and they were interested in this sort of composite outcome of what they called healthy aging, which was being free from 11 different types of chronic disease, not being physically impaired, not having any type of cognitive impairment and having good mental health. That was what was called healthy aging. And over the duration of that study, people who were eating more plant protein were significantly more likely to not have any of the 11 chronic diseases, to not be physically impaired, to not have any type of cognitive impairment, and to have good mental health.

49:13If they were eating less meat? If they were eating less animal protein and more plant protein. And so they did this substitution analysis and they were looking at what happens to the odds of aging in a healthy manner. as determined by that criteria that I just mentioned. And for every 3 % of calories that you swapped out from animal protein and swapped in plant protein, they increased their odds of healthy aging by 40%. That's the main take-home message from this study, was that overall, just protein in general, was great from a physical function point of view. But when you dig in and you look at healthy aging in a more broader context that also includes not just physical function, but memory, mental health, and chronic disease, plant protein came out far more superior than animal protein.

50:10People that were eating more of the foods rich in plant protein had better health outcomes. Amazing. I think I have two questions and maybe, Will, I'd love to ask you before we run out. One One is we've talked a lot about sort of moving exclusively to plant-based protein. And I'm an example of somebody who hasn't done that. I've reduced the amount of meat that I eat a lot, but I continue to eat eggs and particularly like fermented dairy, like cheese and yogurt and things like this. So I'd love your perspective on that from a health perspective versus an ethical perspective. And I know that one of the reasons one chooses to give up everything that's animal basis for is for ethical reasons.

50:49And the second thing I guess I'd love to ask you about, because this is after all the Zoe podcast, and it feels to me it's a really good example here is, you know, how, you know, being a Zoe member might help you to understand these transitions. Because I think one of the hardest things here as you listen to sort of Simon talking about this is there's a lot of foods that are new, right? and this transition from the way that I've been brought up to eat to something different is, I think for many people, one of the big blockers to actually improving their health. Yeah. So I'll speak for myself, although Simon and I have discussed this sort of question of ethical versus health oriented nutrition advice.

51:30And the question that sort of comes up is what's the place or the role for eggs and dairy within that construct? So there are clearly ethical motivations. Let's put those to the side for a moment. Eggs and dairy, if I were to arrange a hierarchy of protein sources and assign value in terms of what are the more healthful protein sources, among the animal-based foods, they would be up near the top. I would probably put oily fish above them. I would certainly put fermented dairy above non-fermented dairy. And I would put eggs somewhere in this general spectrum. And what I would put down at the bottom quite clearly are things like ultra-processed meats.

52:15So now within this sort of spectrum of protein sources, I would also put legumes above these as well. But most people are not eating a completely vegan diet. and really, I think part of the orientation here, and I actually think it gets into what is the role or benefit of Zoe within approaching this, really, it seems to me that the benefit is improving our dietary quality, period. And there are many ways in which we can accomplish that. There's not just this one path that is one size fits all that's the same for all of us. ultimately we're finding what works for us and um and in doing that for many people it's just a goal to try to elevate and basically make substitutions that are in their best interest so for the vast majority of people by replacing ultra processed meats or red meat with eggs dairy fish products seafood they're clearly taking a step in the right direction would i love for them to consume more beans?

53:19Yes. People are not consuming enough beans. That being said, you can improve your nutritional quality by basically making these substitutions. So to me, this is the big picture view is it's not about the individual food and whether it's good or whether it's bad. It's all points of relativity. What are you replacing with what? And can we elevate the overall quality of our diet? That's what I want to see people do. That's one of the things that Zoe clearly does. and we've shown that in our method clinical trial is that people who followed ZOE improved the quality of their diet. One of the things I've personally got more and more concerned about is ultra-processed food, which is something I'd never even heard of, you know, seven years ago.

53:57And I feel it's a topic that just comes up more and more often as I'm talking to nutritional researchers. We talked about a lot of whole foods here, but Simon, you also did talk, particularly for people who are like sort of weight lifters, which I suspect is a very small fraction of our audience, but I do want to address it. you're saying, well, if they're not eating, you know, any of the eggs or oily fish or whatever, then actually protein might be a challenge. And you started to talk about supplements. And you also talked about, you know, milk replacements that, you know, involved, you know, sort of, you know, what would sound like ultra processed food in terms of like particular protein, how concerned do you think we should be about the sort of potential downside of that ultra processed food versus the benefits maybe of getting a lot of protein?

54:39I guess high level, I'm of the view that ultra-processed foods generally as a category is something that we want to consume less of, but not all ultra-processed foods are equal. So that's the first thing that I would like to point out. We can go and choose two foods at the grocery store that would both meet ultra-processed criteria, but I think most people would probably be able to distinguish between the two as to which one's healthier than the other. I think we have to just think about the current state of the average person's diet where 60 % of calories are coming from the ultra processed food category, which is associated with increased risk of mortality and cancer and cardiovascular disease.

55:24and that's consistent across different populations. But I think that's different to the person that has overall what we would deem as a high diet quality, is getting a good amount of fiber in the diet, polyphenols, plant protein, micronutrients, carotenoids, and then is kind of supplementing that dietary pattern with a few strategic foods that maybe fall under the ultra processed banner, but don't have the added sugars in them, have some micronutrients like calcium that might be filling a gap and helping avoid a deficiency, rich in protein, helping someone get to an optimal protein intake to support their training.

56:14I think in that context, it can be strategic and help someone achieve their goals, avoid deficiency. and there's a net positive. That's a roundabout way of me saying I think context matters and the individual ultra-processed food we're talking about matters. And this is an area that's greatly contested. I think in future what we'll see is the definition of ultra-processed foods will get more refined and there'll be ways of kind of teasing out which are the ultra-processed foods that are really associated and driving disease and which are the ones that technically are ultra-processed but could be featured within a healthy dietary pattern.

56:58I agree with you, Simon. I think that that's completely true. And we do see this play out. I think part of this is, first of all, the acknowledgement that no one's going to be 0 % ultra-processed foods. I think that's, unless you live off the grid, that's pretty much impossible these days. I'm certainly not 0 % ultra-processed foods. Do I consume plant-based meats at times. Yes. Am I doing that because I think that they are the healthiest food for me? No, I make room for food that I enjoy. And sometimes when I'm grilling with my family on a nice summer day, when we're out by the pool, I will consume that food because it is good.

57:34It tastes good and it's fun. All right. And I think that that's okay to like have that in your life. We just don't want it to be 60 % of your life. And we see this play out by the way. I just, I think it's worth pointing this out because it's kind of interesting where motivation and orientation makes a big difference. It's kind of like what Simon's saying about context. So if you look at, there's two, um, well-regarded vegan and vegetarian cohort studies. One in the United States called the Adventist two study, which was among seven day Adventists. Now their orientation is towards bodily health and it's just a part of their, it's a part of their community.

58:14Like this is the way they live. And by the way, this is one of the blue zones. And the other is the Epic Oxford study, which is based in the UK. And this was a population of people that were vegetarian and vegan for ethical reasons. And we see, if you look at the outcomes that exist within these two studies, even though people are describing themselves as vegan or vegetarian in both studies, they're quite different. And in some cases, the vegetarians in Epic Oxford actually do worse than the omnivores. And the reason why is because their orientation is not a health orientation. It is an ethical orientation, which leads to, in many cases, the overconsumption of ultra-processed foods.

58:55So I do think that we need to have awareness of this. If your goal is to be more healthy and you're moving towards more plant-based foods, when they're whole plant-based foods, you're making a healthful choice. Is it going to be 100 % of your diet? Probably not. And it doesn't have to be to be a healthy diet. So I think that's really clear. And I think the only thing I'd add is it's interesting. So I've been really interested in this whole topic since I first met my co-founder, Tim Spector, and we started to create Zoe. And yet what's interesting is that my diet really changed at the point that my wife did Zoe.

59:27She got her results, decided to go for this, and therefore started to use all the recipes that were coming to her, personalized to her, to change what we ate at dinner. because then suddenly I switched from eating a dinner that probably had a center like a piece of meat each night, right? Which is definitely the way that I grew up. And therefore, even though I was maybe wanting to eat more plants, it was sort of stuck around the side to suddenly, I think Justine understanding how she could start to cook all of these meals where actually plants were in the center. That's the first time I had ever knowingly eaten a piece of tofu or tempeh also, Honestly, 36 months ago, I don't think I could have pointed to it on a plate.

1:00:06And Simon is smiling as I say this. And so I think it made a huge difference actually being able to understand that. And even now, I think the new recipes have a huge impact on what we eat because for many people listening, I think you tend to eat what you're used to eating, right? And actually changing your cuisine like what you eat is actually quite a hard barrier. So I think one of the things I never would have guessed at the beginning, we thought this is all about the hardest sciences. How do we give you like these personalized results just for you? And I think it's what's become clear is more and more.

1:00:40It's like, how do I actually understand how to make the changes from what I'm eating right now? What are the tweaks that I can make step by step week by week that are going to make it healthier? And even like the 50, 50, I'd never heard this before the 50, 50 mince and lentil. I mean, I think if you score that on Zoe, you'd see already that it massively increased the score. And sometimes I think people feel like everything is all or nothing. And that's sort of a scenario where you start to get very depressed, right? Because as soon as you do one thing wrong, it's all over. Whereas actually, I love this general thing I've discovered, you know, through my journey over the last seven years.

1:01:14And almost every time you eat something better, like you're making a difference to your health for decades. So you sort of celebrate all the upside rather than constantly focus, which I think comes from this world of calorie counting on, oh, I failed this thing and you beat yourself up. Yeah, I agree. I think it's, I've always said I would much rather be running to something that I'm exciting about than running away from something that's scary. Brilliant. Well, look, I would love to do a quick wrap up and we've gone over a number of different areas, but I think the center of this all the way through has been this idea that most of the things that we've been told about protein are just wrong.

1:01:48So yes, protein is essential, that it consists of like these 20 Lego bricks. We talked about these amino acids, of which we call nine essential because human beings can't make them themselves. We have to get it in our diet. That we all grew up, and I grew up with this idea that you eat muscle in order to get muscle. And hence this idea that you should eat a big piece of steak, which is definitely how I could just think of my grandmother literally putting it in front of me and saying those words, Simon. That critically, we're surrounded by an environment that's constantly telling us we're not eating protein, but the truth is we're not doing enough exercise is what you're saying, that really the limiting factor is the strain, going to the gym, walking up a hill with a bag on your back.

1:02:35And that's really the constraint. There is such a thing as an incomplete protein. So you were saying that if all you did was eat rice, for example, you would be short of one of these essentially amino acids. But if you are thinking about having a really diverse range of plants, it's very unlikely. And as soon as you start to add in other things like eggs or dairy or a little bit of meat or any of the rest of it, this is not a real problem. The reality is that in general, we're living in this, I think you said, a diet where people are having too much protein rather than too little. That this idea about plant-based protein being less bioavailable is something that early research from 30, 40 years ago, people saw as a big deal.

1:03:22Now, the most latest research says, this difference is quite small. So unless you're an Olympic athlete, this is not really something you need to be worried about. And as Will said, every time you're eating that bean, you're getting all this amazing fiber and polyphenols, all of these benefits. So again, this isn't really a big concern. And the critical reason is that once you eat this piece of steak or this bean, your body actually breaks it down into these like 20 little Lego bricks, and they scoot it around your body and rebuild it. And your body doesn't know whether it came from a steak or a bean.

1:03:56And I think that's a brilliant explanation, Simon, for why it doesn't really matter where it came from as long as you're going to get it. And then I think in terms of practicality, Simon, you mentioned a lot of specific plants which are really heavy in protein. You talked about chickpeas and lentils, all varieties of beans. You talked quite a lot about tofu and tempeh. And these are things that know come up in a lot of the recipes that I now sort of understand how to use that I didn't before. Also nuts and seeds. This wonderful thing called seitan that I've never heard of before. So we'll put a link to that in the show notes because I don't think I could find that on the shelf.

1:04:35And then I think what you said was, it's not like you have to give up everything you're currently doing and switch to only plants. Like even a partial shift away from these red meats and meats towards more whole food plant will make a big difference. And you had this great example that, you know, you could even take out half the mince and put in lentils. You're already making that meal much healthier for you and you've still even got red meat in it as a transition. And that, you know, for many people listening to this who are driven more by health than by ethical reasons, you know, fish, particularly oily fish, eggs, dairy, particularly fermented dairy, much better than meat as this transition.

1:05:16things like beans well you would put even higher and they definitely score even higher for me on my app because of all the added polyphenols and lentils but this is a transition so it's not sort of like you've got to be entirely on one side or the other there's a sort of pathway and if I would add one thing it's just that interestingly for me as I have reduced meat in my diet I have become less and less interested in it. So I would have said to you a decade ago, I couldn't possibly give up a steak. I love a steak. And what's interesting is that I don't like it anymore. And I never made an active decision not to eat it.

1:05:54But it's quite interesting to me how your tastes can actually evolve. And I would leave that as a sort of positive sign that it's possible to go with this change towards health and actually feel better with it. I think the point that Will made is one that shouldn't be lost on people in that this isn't about sacrificing your joy for food. It's just about finding new ways to enjoy foods just as much, if not more, that are actually protective and rewarding you with better health in the long term. Yeah. And I think for me, we came into this conversation asking the question, can you replace meat with plant-based protein and still get the same benefits, still accomplish your fitness goals.

1:06:40And my friend Simon here, I think is a testament to this because he's been living this lifestyle for many years and he is a huge dude. I'm just going to tell everyone, he is like a moose. He's a giant guy. All right. So, but humbly over here, I'm almost 10 years older than this guy. And I don't spend as much time at the gym as he does, because I have four kids. And I feel pretty good. I feel pretty good about the fact that I myself made this transition. And I actually am lifting more weight in my 40s than I was ever able to lift in my teens or in my 20s. Much more weight than I could ever do much stronger, definitely putting on more muscle mass and simultaneously looking just as young as Simon Hill.

1:07:29So I feel pretty good about these things. And you have bigger biceps. He definitely has bigger biceps. I'll give him that. But the takeaway for everyone though, and I think that it comes all the way full circle back to the beginning, is that you can accomplish your fitness goals with plant-based protein. It does not hold you back. The key is not what you eat for your fitness goals so much as making sure that you have enough protein in your diet and you're exercising. exercising is like the key ingredient for all of that and i think that the other aspect of this is like let's not lose track of the fact that you can look great on the outside and be rotten on the inside that's not what you want to be we want you thriving on the inside and the outside and plant-based protein is one of the ways in which you can accomplish that i think that's a lovely way to wrap up and i'm already imagining this youtube special combination of the two of you in the gym and then cooking afterwards.

1:08:22So I'll be following up and seeing whether we can figure out how to do that. I think that would be fun. Jonathan, we're going to come to London and we're going to work out with your son. We're going to come to London and we're going to go into the gym with him. I think he would love it. Brilliant. Thank you so much. And Simon, I hope we can get you back again in the future. Thanks, Jonathan. This was great. And you're a great host, great listener. Really enjoyed it. This was fun. Thanks, Will. Thank you. I hope you learned something today and enjoyed the episode. If you listen to the show regularly, you probably already believe that you can transform your health by changing what you eat.

1:08:57But now, there is only so much you can learn from general advice on a weekly podcast. If you want to feel much better and live many more healthy years, you need something more. And that's why each day, more than 100 ,000 members trust Zoe to help them make the smartest food choices. so they could feel better now and enjoy many more healthy years. Combining our world-leading science with your Zoe test results, Zoe is your guide and coach to sustainable improvements to your health. So how does it work? Zoe Membership starts with at-home testing to understand your unique body. Then Zoe's app is your health coach, using weekly check-ins and daily guidance to help you shift your food choices so as to steadily improve your health.

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