America 250: One Nation Under God?

0:00This message comes from NPR sponsor Charles Schwab with its original podcast on investing. Each week, you'll get thoughtful, in-depth analysis of both the stock and the bond markets. Listen today and subscribe at schwab.com slash oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Nyla. A quick note before we start the show. Today's episode of the podcast was taped live in front of an audience at American University in Washington, D.C. on May 19, 2026. It was a fun one to do. I learned a lot. All right, let's get into it.

0:38I'm Nyla Boodoo. This is 1A. And this is what the National Mall in Washington, D.C. sounded like on Sunday. Woven into the fabric of America is a deep and persistent belief that we cannot persevere on our own, that we need God. This is God's country, and you can't celebrate God's country without celebrating God. There's no better way to kick off the birthday than this. So God bless America. That is so important, this divine reset. I came in from Texas just to be a part of this. Whatever walk in life or whatever denomination that you are in, it's good to be an American. So we know what God can do.

1:24But here's what we are to do. Sanctify yourselves. thousands attended a day-long conservative prayer gathering billed as a rededication of the U.S. as one nation under God for our nation's 250th birthday. The event was a public-private partnership backed by the White House and notably absent non-Christian voices of faith. Apart from one Jewish rabbi, all the speakers were Christian, most were evangelical, some were Trump cabinet members and lawmakers, which has us asking, what does one nation under God mean today? How should we understand the separation of church and state and freedom of religion and what our founders intended?

2:05Does the America of 2026 represent what our founding fathers wanted it to be? For today's show, we have moved out of the studio and we're coming to you from the Katzen Arts Center at American University. We're in front of a live, in-person and virtual audience in partnership with Religion News Service. Welcome, everybody.

2:30Thanks to all of you for being here. To start off, let's break down the events of the weekend with Jack Jenkins, national reporter for Religion News Service based in Washington. He covers the intersection of religion and politics and is also the author of American Prophets, The Religious Roots of Progressive Politics and the Ongoing Fight for the Soul of the Country. Jack, thanks for being here. Thanks so much for having me. Jack, Sunday's program included Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, Vice President J.D. Vance, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, House Speaker Mike Johnson. I was there for much of the day, as were you.

3:00And I will say, when I heard many of the Christian pastors, with a few notable exceptions, taking pains to say that they supported diversity in other religions, the politicians that were there, including Senator Tim Scott and Speaker of the House Mike Johnson, who gave a prayer, had much more pro-Christian and overtly Christian messaging. From your perspective, what was the overarching message of the day? Yeah, I think it was very clearly, you know, the comments that you had earlier, those clips, I do think are emblematic of both what was conveyed from the stage and what was received by those in the crowd.

3:35It was this linking of religion in general to the American founding and the American story, Christianity in particular, and conservative Christianity even more in particular to that American story. That's why we heard several, like you mentioned, the politicians, Pete Hegseth actually recounted a story of George Washington kneeling and praying at Valley Forge. That story has actually been dismissed. Not factually accurate. Right. It's been dismissed by historians for a long time, but he was linking it as, oh, like, just like George Washington, we should pray like this today. We heard similar comments made by Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, and as you mentioned, Mike Johnson, just kind of linking American history to Christians in particular and faith in general as this sort of melding of American identity and a religious identity.

4:23And I should note that most of these comments were delivered from a stage that had a giant projected Christian cross in the center of it. So who, there were thousands of people in attendance, I will say, for a very hot day. It was in the 90s, and people were there out on the mall all day. What did you hear from the people you talked to? Yeah, so the people who I spoke with had come from all over. Folks had flown in and driven in from, you know, far-flung states to be a part of this. You know, I spoke to three women outside who were waiting in line. You all had One Nation Under God shirts on. And when I asked them why they were here, they mentioned that they thought that rededicating America to God was, in fact, long overdue.

5:02They saw this as an important step. But I'll note it was really interesting that they followed that by saying, I'm here to support my president, referring to President Donald Trump. And that came through a lot, that there was a lot of MAGA hats and things like that that were also sprinkled through the crowd. And that was happening alongside folks who had very emotional religious responses to this, who said that they believe that this version of history resonates with them both as an American but also as a Christian. That what they hear preached in their own pulpits about American history links to their own personal understanding of faith.

5:41And so you saw people as they were walking into the crowd with hands raised in prayer. We saw people kneel together to pray together. And while they were wearing clothes, they were emblazoned with red, white, and blue. So it was really kind of a synthesis of that that I was hearing from any number of people in the crowd. We're also hearing from you. Gemma emails, the issue is not whether America should be a Christian nation, but whether the president appears to be leveraging the support of the Christian church without meaningfully engaging with it. At times, it seems he is so confident in that support, he does not feel the need to show up or participate, or even to convincingly demonstrate his faith.

6:15I should note, the president was not there on Sunday after touting this event. Organizers played a video of the president reading a passage from the Bible that he had recorded for another event a few weeks ago. We will get to more of the president in a moment, but who else was notable for not being there? Yeah, I mean, the speakers who were on the stage were overwhelmingly evangelical Christians, both faith leaders and pastors who were evangelicals as well. And a lot of those evangelicals, I should note, were often advisors or supporters of President Trump. And many of the government leaders were also evangelical Christians.

6:53There was some Catholic representation. We had one cardinal and one bishop who were on stage, as well as some entertainers and political figures who were Catholic. But you didn't see any mainline Protestant figures who were up there, which is interesting given that this is supposed to commemorate the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, and disproportionately represented in the signers of the Declaration of Independence were actually what we would call now mainline Protestant denominations. There were black Protestant speakers, but leaders from traditionally and historically black Protestant denominations were notably absent.

7:27In fact, the Progressive National Baptist Convention, which once claimed Reverend Martin Luther King as one of its members, actually issued a statement the day before suggesting that the event was emblematic of white Christian nationalism. So you didn't see those. You also didn't see much representation, if at all, from members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is actually one of the most reliably Republican religious groups in the country. And of course, you know, there was one Jewish rabbi, but you didn't see anything of any representation from Muslim Americans, indigenous spiritual practitioners, Hindus, what have you.

8:03It's very much overwhelming, not only Christian, but evangelical Christian in particular. So this was part of Freedom 250, which is not to be confused with America 250, which is the bipartisan and congressionally mandated that sponsored actually another event on Saturday called the Good Neighbors America event, which did have many faith groups and did not get as much attention as the president's service on the mall on Sunday. What should we know about that and other things that happened over the past weekend, other ways we saw faith groups coming out? What I think is really interesting about this as a religion reporter is like what gets counted as a religion story, right?

8:43As you noted, there were definitely faith leaders there. There was also a significant protest in March that was faith-led in Selma, in Alabama, pushing back against the gutting of a provision of the Voting Rights Act that happened recently. And that was, you know, the Civil Rights Movement, even people said at this Freedom to Rededicate 250 event, mentioned this religious elements of the Civil Rights Movement and how crucial faith was to that effort. But there wasn't any mention, for instance, of the fact that the Voting Rights Act had just had a significant provision gutted, and the Voting Rights Act is, of course, one of the seminal achievements of the Civil Rights Movement.

9:21So it's interesting that this event is covered as a religious, gathering and that this is where religion is happening in America, as it were, whereas the gathering you mentioned, as well as these protests, don't tend to get the same level of attention as religion stories. Now, that's not true at a religion news service, of course, but I think that it is equally as notable to me that the religious actors are operating in those spaces as well. We just have about a minute before we go to a break, but I wanted to quickly ask you put a quote to you about the U.S., saying that the U.S. is, quote, more religious than secular Americans claim and less religious than Christian nationalists would have us believe.

10:01That's from Matthew Avery Sutton, a professor of history at Washington State University, who spoke to RNS's Bob Smintana about this. I wonder if the data backs that up. Yeah, we have seen that for quite some time. More than 60 percent of the country is Christian in general, and other other percentages are religious. But we do have a substantial population of religiously unaffiliated. I've often joked with Democrats in particular that when they run for office, they often have to politic to the most and least religious Americans at the same time. And while Republicans have a significantly higher percentage of religious Americans in their clientele, people who self - identify as Republican, they actually have a significant sliver of non-religious Americans as well.

10:45The reality is that it's significantly more complicated than any of these tidy narratives would want us to believe. So we are going to get past some of those tidy narratives and go into some of the nuances of that. We do have to take a quick break. We're going to be back with more to come with Jack Jenkins, national reporter for Religion News Service. We're also hearing from you. Nicholas emailed us, we have freedom of religion in the U.S. Our country was founded where everyone can worship however they feel. And Tim says, I'm a devout Christian and a full-time youth pastor. I found the National Prayer Service event to be an absolute disgrace.

11:19I'm a firm believer in the separation of church and state. And the event this past Sunday was just idolatry on full display. Keep the questions and comments in coming. You can email us 1a at wamu.org. Coming up, legal and government scholars from several faith traditions are joining us. Stick with us.

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13:01Support for NPR and the following message come from ID Tech. ID Tech is where kids ages 7 to 17 find their people. The battle bots, game design, and more people. Go to IDTech.com and use code IDTech to save$150 this summer. This message comes from our NPR sponsor, Fort Myers. Islands, beaches, and neighborhoods. This summer, follow what feels right, like embracing your playful side on Fort Myers' white sand beaches. Direct flights arrive daily. Plan your trip at visitfortmyers.com. Welcome back to the 1A podcast. There's a long-running debate over the founders' intentions for religion in the United States, and it's once again been thrust into the spotlight as we approach the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.

13:49This weekend, on the National Wall in Washington, D.C., the White House organized a national jubilee of prayer, praise, and thanksgiving, and a ceremony that overwhelmingly featured conservative Christian religious leaders and members of the Trump administration. Here are J.D. Vance, Marco Rubio, and Speaker of the House Mike Johnson. The morality and religion that formed the American consciousness were decidedly Christian, founded upon the principles and the divinity of Jesus Christ. America is still a young nation measured against the record of history. And from the beginning, we have carried the belief that our country represents something new in the world.

14:28But the soul of our nation has always been rooted in an ancient faith. We hereby rededicate the United States of America as one nation under God.

14:42But what does that mean for Americans of non-Christian faiths? And is the president promoting Christian nationalism rather than religious freedom? We're broadcasting in front of a live and virtual audience from the Katzen Auditorium at American University for this special show in partnership with Religion News Service. Here with me now, Asma Udine is a scholar of religious liberty and Muslim identity in America. She's an assistant professor of law at Michigan State University and also the author of When Islam is Not a Religion. Asma, thank you for being here with us. Thank you for having me. Mark David Hall is a professor at Regent University's Robertson School of Government.

15:17He's also the author of Did America Have a Christian Founding? Separating Modern Myth from Historical Truth. Mark, welcome. Thank you. And Jeffrey Rosen, CEO Emeritus of the National Constitution Center, a professor of law at George Washington Law School, and a contributing editor of The Atlantic. Jeff, welcome back to 1A. Great to be here. So there's no specific reference to any religion in the Constitution beyond the date, quote, in the year of our Lord, 1787. It does forbid religious tests for office holders, and the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights guarantees religious freedom and forbids establishment of any religion.

15:54We're going to get into all of that, but I'd love to just first hear your reaction to what we heard from the vice president, the secretary of state, and the speaker of the house, given especially the lens all three of you have as scholars of American history and the constitution. Asma, can I start with you? Yeah, I mean, you noted that I wrote a book called When Islam is Not a Religion, and it was rooted in, one, my work on religious liberty, including at the Supreme Court and, you know, absolutely an advocate for broad religious liberty, but at the same time noticing that there was this pattern where religious liberty was being, at least outside the courts, being advocated for one religion or certainly thinking about certain faiths that were going to be excluded and sort of came to me most prominently, like, most clearly when I was working on a case that essentially talked about Islam, but the argument in court was that Islam is not a religion.

16:46And so land use protections do not extend to Islam. And once I kind of noted that in its explicit form, I noticed the many ways that it was coming up in sort of less explicit ways. And I think when I hear this clip, that's exactly what I'm thinking about. Like, in the one hand, you have these, like, very sort of obvious attempts to carve out who gets protections and who doesn't. But then you also have this language that is more structural, right? When he's talking about, morality in this country is largely rooted in one religion. It's rooted in Christianity. I mean, the quote by J.D. Vance, he said exactly that, like singling one out.

17:21It basically says, we're rededicating this country to this particular vision. And those are the people who belong, and everyone else is just a guest. And I think the incident in San Diego yesterday and many other incidents tell us that not a very welcome guest. We did just get this email from Susan, who said the prayer event happened on Sunday. On Monday, a shooting occurred at the San Diego Muslim Center, killing three. Why are we not surprised? Susan, thanks for sharing that. Mark, your thoughts on what you heard from that clip we just played. Sure, I think if we want to understand the American founding, we have to understand the context.

17:57In the late 18th century, about 98 % of Americans of European descent are Protestant, 2 % are Roman Catholic, and you have about 2 ,000 Jews in four or five American cities. and for them they're just assuming a Christian environment. Jim Hudson of the Library of Congress used to speak of the founder's syllogism, that if we want a Republican form of government, we must have a moral people. If we want to have a moral people, we must have a religious people. In their imagination, religion equaled Christianity, but I think it's broader than that and we're obviously a far different country today and it's very reasonable to ask, is it not possible that other religions, other faith traditions can generate the sort of morality necessary for a Republican form of government.

18:37I think that it certainly is. The founders clearly wanted a robust understanding of religious liberty that protects all Americans. So we have Article VI, Prohibition of Religious Test. You have George Washington's wonderful letter to the Hebrew congregation in Newport, Rhode Island, where he makes it crystal clear that Jews in America have a right to the free exercise of religion. It's not a grant to the civil state, it's a right. Jeff, your thoughts on what you heard, and then I want to just ask you the big question, right, and have everyone else respond as well. Were we founded as a Christian nation?

19:09No, we were not founded as a Christian nation because the core value of the Establishment Clause is that it's not permissible to favor Christianity over any other religion. Now, the founders disagreed about exactly how to treat the question of religious liberty. and Madison, whose views were reflected in the First Amendment, insisted that the government should be non-cognizant of religion. And he developed this view during the central battle of his early career against religious establishments in Virginia. Patrick Henry wants a tax for all citizens to have to support the Christian church. Madison says the tax violates our natural rights of conscience, which are unalienable.

19:53There's a shift during the Enlightenment from the old view that we got our ideas of truth from the Pope or the King or centralized authority to the new view that citizens have to make up their own minds, and in order to do that, they need a variety of views about religion and politics to create a plausible marketplace of ideas. And Madison says, the opinions of men, being dependent on evidence contemplated by their own minds, cannot be controlled by other men. In other words, I can't give you or anyone and the power to control my thoughts because my thoughts are the product of reason and persuasion, not force or violence.

20:30So that is why religious freedom of conscience is unalienable. In the debate over the Bill of Rights, Madison thought about whether that broad view of religious freedom, which led him not to issue Thanksgiving proclamations, should, how broad it should be. And people like Roger Sherman, the Puritan theocrat theocrat who Mark David Hall has written the definitive biography of, and I really recommend to you, Sherman likes test oaths in Connecticut. He likes the idea of established congregationalist church, and he doesn't want Gouverneur Morris to serve as ambassador because he's a heretic. But Madison wins that debate.

21:08It's language from Virginia, from George Mason and Madison. So the central idea, this is the most important of the unalienable rights protected by the Declaration of Independence, that you can't tell anyone else how to think, and even if you want to, it won't work because we're products of reason, means that no one religion can prevail over another. Mark, I want to ask you about this. Your scholarship has challenged the idea that, you know, in the, you say that like in the mid-20th century, there was a consensus that most of our nation's founders were deist and created a godless constitution because they wanted to strictly separate church and state.

21:46Your scholarship has challenged that in a way, and I think there's a nuance that you like to talk about, whether we were founded as a Christian nation or founded by Christian people. Why do you think that's important, especially given, why do you think the idea that we are a Christian nation in that sense is so important, and why do you think that nuance needs to be talked about? I really do not like the language that America was founded as a Christian nation. But it sounds as if America was founded for Christians, and maybe we'll put up with non-Christians, but maybe we won't. The founders were crystal clear, and I've already mentioned evidence, Article 6, a letter to the Hebrew congregation.

22:23What I argue, and did America have a Christian founding, is the founders were influenced profoundly by Christian ideas in addition to other ideas, classical Republican ideas, Enlightenment ideas, and they created a nation that was to be open for all Americans. In their imagination, I don't think they could imagine and America would become as diverse as it is today. And if they were to come back, I think they would be shocked and many would be pleasantly surprised. I think they consciously built a nation that would be open to all, people of all faiths and no faith at all. Osmo Mark, I would love for you to respond to this question that we got from our Zoom room.

22:57Connect the dots for us. Why would this administration want to emphasize the connection between Christianity and democracy? What story are they trying to tell? Well, I can't, I mean, I can't sort of comment on the specific connection that they're thinking about, but certainly it's that, I think it was exactly what I had noted before, that there, in order for us to flourish, our idea of, like, who belongs is limited to a particular sort of conception of Christianity. I mean, even within Christianity, we're talking about, you know, Christianity versus Islam, but the people, mostly on the Mall, were conservative Christians, most of them were evangelical, And so it's saying, and to the extent that maps onto partisan divides, it's also noting that there are progressive Christians and a number of different minority interpretations of Christianity that are not included in this idea of what America is and what the image or idea of what we want it to be moving forward is.

23:55Yeah, Mark, can you connect the dots? And I know that many people think the idea that we're a Christian nation is a central tenant of Christian nationalism. So I want to acknowledge that as well and ask your thoughts on that. Yeah, so there's a lot I could say about that. I have a book on Christian nationalism. I think most of the critics of Christian nationalism vastly overstate the threat. But I think the promoters of Christian nationalism, the Stephen Wolfe, Doug Wilson, are profoundly in error. So I, as a Christian, has critiqued them on biblical and theological grounds, in addition to constitutional and prudential grounds.

24:28I have no idea what exactly the Trump administration was thinking or the officials from the Trump administration was thinking in putting this together. I do think, you know, to the extent to which the founders could have come back and participated in the events of Sunday, probably would have been surprised that there were two Catholics and a Jew speaking. Again, of Americans who are involved in political activities, going to state legislatures, drafting constitutions, ratifying constitutions. They're basically all Protestant. A couple of Catholics in Maryland, all Protestants. And they would have been shocked to see a bishop and a cardinal featured as well as a Jewish rabbi.