ICYMI: The New Interim Leader Of Venezuela

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0:21You're listening to the 1A Podcast. I'm Jen White. And this is In Case You Missed It, where we bring you some of the week's most important conversations you might have missed. Reuters reports that the U.S. seized a Russian-flagged oil tanker that was being shadowed by a Russian submarine. That comes after a more than two-week-long pursuit across the Atlantic as part of a U.S. blockade of Venezuelan oil exports. And last night, President Trump announced that Venezuela would start sending the U.S. oil. The president has voiced his desire to control the country's vast oil reserves since ousting Nicolau Maduro in a midnight raid over the weekend.

0:57The Venezuelan government hasn't yet confirmed the move, and the country's leaders continue to condemn U.S. actions in their country as they crack down on anti-Maduro sentiment. This begs the question, who is in charge of Venezuela? And what is the relationship between the Trump administration and Delcy Rodriguez, their handpicked successor? Joining us to help answer those questions is Vera Bergengruen. She's a national security reporter for The Wall Street Journal. Vera joins us after the break. Back with more in a moment.

1:36and Tristan Redman in London, The Global Story brings you daily news from where the world and America meet. Search for The Global Story from BBC Podcasts. This message comes from the Pulitzer finalist NHPR team. Their new four-part series, Safe to Drink, investigates one of the largest water contamination events in New Hampshire's history and the people who fought for answers. Follow Safe to Drink wherever you're listening. Support for NPR and the following message come from the Lemelson Foundation, dedicated to improving lives through invention, innovation, and climate action. Vera, welcome to the program.

2:14Thanks so much. So on Wednesday, the U.S. Military European Command said the Marinara oil tanker, originally known as Bella One, was seized for, quote, violations of U.S. sanctions after more than two weeks of pursuit across the Atlantic Ocean. The Coast Guard hasn't yet commented. What do we know so far? We do know that they have been pursuing this, as you mentioned, quite for a while, and that it was starting to be backed by, you know, it was flagged by Russia in an attempt to tie it to itself. And then, you know, it did seem like it was really kind of becoming more problematic to seize it. And it seems like they did make an attempt today to do so.

2:54So, you know, we saw Secretary Pete Hexeth say, Defense Secretary Pete Hexeth say that this, you know, blockade of sanctioned and illicit Venezuelan oil remains in full effect. But, you know, it raises so many more questions as to what they're actually trying to accomplish here and what the long term strategy is. So what about this announcement last night that Venezuela will be sending the U.S. oil from its reserves? What do we know about that plan? We don't know much more than that. But there is, you know, the president said that this would be, you know, partly to benefit the Venezuelan people.

3:26Again, there's a lot of questions about how that actually would work. It's a huge amount of oil. We have sources telling us that this would basically bankrupt Venezuela. And again, it really, there's so many questions about this strategy, which seems like the U.S. is setting these terms. It is trying to extract as much as it can. We saw the president before the Maduro raid say that, you know, he believes that Venezuela has stolen U.S. assets. And he's referring to these expropriated oil assets from, you know, when Venezuela nationalized its oil industry. So, you know, it's clear that he believes that somehow this oil and these assets belong to the United States and that he wants Venezuela to hand these over to be administered by the United States and potentially some of this going back to the country.

4:06But again, I mean, currently we have this kind of interim government, which is Maduro's number two. And it's unclear, you know, what this long term strategy is going to be besides the U.S. just, you know, administering this massive oil wealth. Well, let's turn to Delce Rodriguez. This is the Trump administration's handpicked successor to lead the country. Again, as you said, Maduro's number two. How do we what do we know about how she became Trump's choice as partner? What we do know is that, you know, Trump has always been very distrustful of the Venezuelan opposition. Ever since he feels like he really bet a lot on them in his first term and it didn't end up working.

4:46You know, this this attempt at pain failed. And we have sources telling us that he's since then basically gone very cold on supporting the opposition. He doesn't think that they're strong enough. He thinks that, you know, backing them won't achieve much. Meanwhile, Delce Rodriguez is seen as a pretty pragmatic operator. They think that she's someone they can work with, someone who's going to give the U.S. very preference and someone that they've been very clear, they think they can pressure and manipulate. So one of the biggest aspects of this that we reported a couple of days ago was that there was a CIA analysis that found that, you know, Maria Corina Machado, the opposition leader, you know, just didn't have the sufficient support in the country to just be able to take over.

5:30She doesn't have the support of the military. And that backing Rodriguez would just make a lot more sense for U.S. interests because it would be more stable. And, you know, it's been quite interesting to hear the president. I mean, the president said that Machado does not have the respect or the support of the population. Of course, according to international experts, her movement did win the 2024 election. But it looks like the Trump administration decided, at least for the time being, based on the intelligence they had, that for their interests, it was better to work with someone who was going to give the U.S., like we said, access to oil and what they want.

6:07And that is more important than a democratic transition. We're speaking to Vera Bergen-Gruin, national security reporter at The Wall Street Journal. So Rodriguez is the Trump administration's pick to lead the country, at least for now. Rodriguez gave a defiant speech yesterday. Let's take a listen.

6:33She says here, quote, the government of Venezuela runs this country, no one else. There is no one from the outside. Vera, tell us more about the line Rodriguez is walking between publicly condemning the U.S. but seeming to cooperate in private. That's right. I think it's important to remember that obviously a lot of what she's saying to an extent is for domestic consumption. She's still flagged. You know, there's still some very powerful Maduro security ministers and defense ministers who have a lot of power. And obviously it wouldn't be seen well by the population to be fully embracing, you know, what the United States is doing.

7:08At the same time, you know, we reported yesterday that Secretary of State Marco Rubio has been speaking frequently with her. He speaks to her in Spanish, and he's been the main interlocutor who has been communicating pretty big White House demands that they cut ties with Russia, China and Iran, that they don't sell oil to U.S. adversaries. And a couple of other things, as we mentioned, involving access to Venezuelan oil for U.S. companies. And, you know, at least from what U.S. officials are telling us, she is very much playing ball. She is speaking with them. She is obviously, you know, she's having regular contact with the Trump administration.

7:41And again, we don't have this yet, but one would imagine that the president's announcement last night about all of this oil that's allegedly being given by Venezuela to the United States was part of some kind of negotiation. So she does take a very different public tone. But I do think that the statement she gave the day after Maduro's capture, where she basically said, you know, we will be doing our best to work with the U.S., was quite striking. She seems to be going back and forth depending on her audience. Well, we know Secretary of State Marco Rubio is tasked with the running point for the administration in helping to, quote, run Venezuela.

8:18He reportedly had a secret meeting with Delce Rodriguez this week where he warned her Venezuela needs to kick out China, Russia, Iran, and Cuba, and sever economic ties. What kind of reaction are we seeing from those countries? So far, we haven't seen as much as you would expect. We know that Maduro, I think the very day that he was captured, that day he was meeting with Chinese officials. You know, we have seen them call, you know, denounce his capture that, you know, and what the United States is doing. But so far, we haven't really seen, again, as much as we would expect in terms of any actual backing.

8:53You know, some officials have said that he, you know, he should be returned and that this was an illegal operation. But, you know, even with with Turkey, you know, we had heard that on December 23rd, the last offer that was made to Maduro to to get amnesty and leave the country was to go to Turkey. And even President Erdogan of Turkey hasn't really, you know, he's kind of denying that this happened. So I think now that he's in U.S. custody and standing trial and they see what's happening there, I think, you know, a lot of these countries, while they are publicly denouncing the U.S. operation, you know, there isn't a lot of, you know, backing for Maduro there.

9:30Now, on Monday, you wrote a piece that said the U.S. decision to seize Maduro from his compound in Caracas and fly him to New York, that it, quote, heralds a new geopolitical strategy for the U.S. What's your understanding of that new strategy? We have heard the president be quite blunt about the fact that, you know, this was only the beginning. And when he says that, you know, we've seen the U.S. use quite a bit of economic coercion and other other tactics in order to support sympathetic governments in the region since Trump took office last year. But in this case, again, it was a really stunning military operation to actually go in and depose a foreign leader.

10:07And now we are seeing him raise the issue of Cuba, Nicaragua. We are seeing a lot, you know, Colombia, other countries who have foreign leaders who he believes work against U.S. national security interests. And he basically, you know, he said this a couple of days ago. He said nobody can stop us. And it's a, you know, it kind of goes back to the 1800s, you know, this imperialistic view of American power and dominance in the hemisphere. You know, we don't yet know exactly what shape that's going to take. But we are seeing that the people who support a very muscular U.S. foreign policy think that maybe if he did it in Venezuela, he could do it in Cuba, he could do it in other places and ensure that the U.S.

10:47basically has a firm grip on who governs all of these countries. That's Vera Bergen-Gruin, national security reporter at The Wall Street Journal. Vera, thanks for speaking with us. Thanks so much. And this story continues to develop, so follow the latest on your public radio station or at npr.org. This program comes to you from WAMU, part of American University in Washington, distributed by NPR. I'm Jen White. Thanks for listening, and let's talk more soon. This is 1A.

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