'If You Can Keep It': Donald Trump And Election Interference

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0:31Today, how might lawmakers respond to election interference ahead of the midterms? That was the primary question being asked during a meeting earlier this month between top Senate Democrats and election experts. It all happened just weeks after President Trump signed a second executive order on elections. It gives the U.S. Postal Service, part of the Trump administration, drastic new control over who gets to vote by mail. And it's facing legal challenges as well. But that's not all. the president has continued to spread unfounded claims about the insecurity of U.S. elections, including in the recent California gubernatorial and mayoral elections, which he's called rigged.

1:09He's characterizing his new order as a means to shore up trust in voting. And remember, it's about voter integrity. We want to have honest voting in our country, because if you don't have honest voting, you can't have really a nation. Trump's Department of Justice and FBI have also seized 2020 ballots from key voting district and launched investigations into voting rights groups. He's also installed election denier Bill Pulte as the acting director of national intelligence. So how is the president using his power to undermine the electoral process? And what's at stake for our democracy if election interference succeeds?

1:48I'm Jen White. And I'm Todd Zwilly. You're listening to the 1A Podcast. For our weekly politics series, If You Can Keep It, we ask how is the president using his power to undermine the electoral process? And what's at stake for our democracy if election interference succeeds? We'll be back with answers to those questions and more after this short break. Stay with us.

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4:02Welcome back to the 1A podcast. It's the latest installment of If You Can Keep It, our weekly politics and democracy series. With us now in studio is Ambassador Norman Eisen. He's the former U.S. ambassador to the Czech Republic. He's also the co-founder and executive chair of the Democracy Defenders Fund. That's a nonpartisan coalition working to protect and restore American democracy. Norm, welcome to the program. Thank you for having me. Also with us in studio is Eileen O 'Connor. She's a senior counsel and manager in the Brennan Center's Voting Rights and Elections Program. She's also a former trial attorney in the voting section of the Civil Rights Division at the Department of Justice.

4:42Eileen, it's great to have you. Thank you. Norm, let's just start with what the Constitution says about elections. It gives states and Congress the power to make laws governing elections, not the president. How does the Constitution define the scope of that power? The president's power to touch our elections is extremely limited by the Constitution. And that principle has been the case for the entirety of our two century plus history. We have just reaffirmed it in a case that we at the Democracy Defenders Fund, together with the Brennan Center and others, won last year when Donald Trump tried to impose his first executive order taking over American elections.

5:32And the court noted the president has no such power. Now we are litigating his second effort to take them over together with these interferences around the country, seizing ballots, investigating jurisdictions just last week, subpoenas in Ohio, all illegitimate. Let's take those two executive orders that you mentioned piece by piece real quick. Norm mentioned two of them. Eileen, what was the first one? What did the president attempt to do there? The first one, he attempted a wide variety of things that he had no authority to do. And as Norm mentioned, it's almost entirely been blocked or will be blocked, I think.

6:17It ranged from requiring passports or birth certificates in order to vote, trying to get the EAC, the Election Assistance Commission, to implement that in their voter registration form that they mandate. It tried to have DOGE and DHS review state voter files. That was also blocked. Tried to implement actions against states that had mail ballot grace periods, so states that allow ballots to be accepted and counted, even if they arrive after Election Day, if they're postmarked by a certain time. Tried to do that both through the EAC and through DOJ, and all of those have been blocked. So that was March of 2025.

7:00This March, President Trump's second executive order on elections was issued. It would give the U.S. Postal Service unprecedented control over mail-in voting. Explain how, Norm. Well, the executive order includes provisions that if it's allowed to take its full effect, could let the Postal Service withhold ballots that do not – essentially ballots that do not meet a series of criteria that President Trump and his executive branch are seeking to impose. The Postal Service – Well, for example, if you do not align with a list that the federal government is attempting to build, a highly flawed list of permitted voters in the country, The federal government should not have the power to use the Postal Service as a gatekeeping function on these flawed, this so-called save database in the federal government of who is and is not a permitted voter.

8:17Norm, is the Postal Service even tooled to do that, even if it were legally permissible? Are they geared up with the staff and the expertise to take a list of voters per the White House essentially and say this one gets mail, this one does not? Absolutely not, Todd. There's legal obstacles. There's constitutional obstacles, but there's also logistical obstacles. Over and over again, we've seen the federal government attempt to create these interlocking databases, essentially, that would allow President Trump to pick and choose which voters' ballots can be accepted. Now, we are litigating this also, as are my colleagues at Brennan and many other civil rights orgs and others, the political actors who would be affected.

9:08And the result of that litigation has been to expose just how difficult this would be to implement. And at the moment, there was a big win in one of the cases last week, allowing that case to proceed. At the moment, we're skirmishing about whether the cases are ripe. That is, whether the federal government has moved far enough along down the path to implement. But make no mistake, this would be profoundly, once we reach the merits, profoundly illegal. So that executive order gives the Postal Service sweeping new oversight into who gets to vote by mail. Second executive order also, this is an additional part, directs DHS, the Department of Homeland Security, and the Social Security Administration to create and send a list of all adult citizens living in each state to each state's chief election official.

10:11And a list like that wouldn't replace voter registration rules in any particular state. But Eileen, what would a state do with a list like that if they got it from the feds? What are they supposed to do with it? That is a great question. And one of the reasons that this whole enterprise that the administration is undertaking is so damaging is it's really designed to just throw chaos into it. There's so many unknowns. There's so many questions of how would states deal with this? Some states might take the responsible approach and follow the state laws and federal laws that are in place and ensure that they don't remove eligible voters from the voter lists.

10:51Some states may just send lists out to their counties and their counties just remove voters from those lists. We don't know. There are no procedures in place because this isn't how it's supposed to work. And so we just have no idea what states would do if they got these lists. Well, I want to hear from each of you on what I think is a really important question to ask, because even if the courts don't rule in the president's favor, you point it to the chaos that these executive orders are creating. But what does this ongoing baseless assault on election integrity have on the public's belief that our elections are secure?

11:29Eileen, I'll come to you first. I think the whole purpose behind this is to erode the public's trust in our elections. The first executive order, you know, as Norm explained, it was so outside the bounds of anything that the executive has the authority to do. There was seemingly no way any of it could have been upheld. So what is the point of it? The point of it wasn't actually to get those changes in place. The point of it is to erode the trust that the public has in our elections. And similarly, this mail-in ballot, or excuse me, the mail voting executive order, this more recent one, is also just designed to throw chaos in and to just make Americans not trust our election system so that if the results don't go a certain way this year, 2028, then there is room to challenge that or the administration would see that there's room to challenge that.

12:27Norm, your thoughts? Both of the executive orders have a common focus on who is and is not a citizen entitled to vote. There's a disinformation campaign around the false claim that non-citizens are voting. In fact, the Extremely Conservative Heritage Foundation says that happens so infrequently that it amounts to zero statistical incidents. Coming up, Senate Democrats and top election experts met earlier this month to plan responses to election interference scenarios. What that meeting reveals about the health of our democracy. We'll be right back.

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13:47Now the U.S. and Iran say they have a roadmap for peace. We'll have the latest on any overnight developments. Plus, it's another week of primary elections. We'll discuss the results and what they mean for November. Listen to Up First every morning for the top three stories you need to know to start your day on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Recently, cybersecurity researchers discovered a striking computer virus, seemingly related to the conflict between the U.S. and Iran over Iran's nuclear program. Everything about this thing screams special. A cunning cyber weapon meant to gaslight nuclear scientists?

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15:09Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop. No spam calls, no hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over$1 ,300 a year. Switch with confidence. Download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai slash npr today. Let's get back into the conversation. We're discussing potential threats to election security during the midterms. Ed in St. Louis messages to say, I worked as an election protection volunteer with Missouri Voter Protection Coalition. We monitor polling places on Election Day and assist voters who require special assistance to vote. Since 2016, I've noticed a major uptick in attempts to intimidate voters at the polls.

15:51In 2020, as I was working at polling places, there were groups of men driving by in trucks with large magasigns. They would yell at voters and the police never intervened. Well, last week during a confirmation hearing for nominees to the USPS Board of Governors, Michigan Democratic Senator Alyssa Slotkin questioned Jeffrey Brodsky about the president's executive order on mail-in voting. He's one of Trump's nominees for the board. Do you believe that the U.S. Postal Service has a role in adjudicating who gets to vote in this country? Mr. Brodsky, do you want to start? I think the Postal Service needs to receive the ballots and deliver them as quickly as possible.

16:28And I have to get your approval as board of governor members to vote in my own state? We will follow the law. And as far as I know, that's not yet the law. Norm, just plainly, what's the likelihood that President Trump's executive order on mail-in voting survives all of these court challenges? Like his first election takeover EO, the second one focusing on the Postal Service is going to fail. Well, we've seen preliminary indications of that in most recently in the ruling last week allowing the case to proceed. The courts may want to look at the actual implementation because it's such a crazy Rube Goldberg machine that the president has built with this second EO.

17:26I think voters need to know that free and fair voting will be vigorously defended. We've been through this now together as a nation since 2020, including things like those trucks driving by that Ed wrote you about. And we will all work together to make sure votes count. Voters can be confident, but it is going to be a big fight. 2020, you're referring to, of course, January 6th, the attempt to overturn that election. Even since, up until the very last month, Trump administration nominees come before the Senate for Department of Justice, U.S. attorney, ambassadorships. They get asked by senators who won the 2020 election, and person after person, they won't answer.

18:18So it's still in front of Congress even today. Earlier this year, the FBI seized 2020 voting records from key swing districts in Georgia and Arizona. The Trump administration has also requested confidential voter files from nearly every state. And earlier this month, this was mentioned a little bit earlier, in Ohio, the FBI seized documents from a group that supports voter registration efforts in that state. So, Eileen, Ohio, Arizona, Georgia, these are all midterm battleground states or states that have battleground districts, at least. they could help determine the balance of power in Congress in November, of course.

18:55How are you interpreting the administration's actions in these states, all the way up to these Senate confirmation hearings that I mentioned, where would-be officials refuse to say the fact that we all know to be true, Joe Biden won the election? I think there are a couple different ways to look at it. One is the backward-looking obsession with who won the 2020 election. And a lot of the Department of Justice and the administration's actions are motivated by that, just unable to let go, just unable to accept what the results of the 2020 election were. You know, that's the raid in Fulton County to get those ballots was based, you know, the affidavit underlying the warrant was based on, you know, lies about the 2020 election.

19:41the fact that folks who come before the Senate, you know, refuse to answer that question. Again, that's just this obsession. But then the forward-looking is the efforts to undermine American confidence in our electoral results that we've seen, but also really sinister, I think, efforts to tamp down civic engagement. And so what you saw in Ohio was really outrageous, This attack on a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization that registers voters, gets them out to the polls, does all the good work that is necessary to keep our democracy robust, to keep people engaged, to make it accessible for voters in Ohio.

20:28And so attacking them, and presumably that may be the first of several, that's sort of sending a message to folks who do this sort of work, you know, watch out, we're coming after you. And so that's another, in addition to trying to damage electoral, the confidence of Americans in our system, also making, trying to make people scared to do the engagement that's necessary for a robust democracy. Well, one of you has a question about that raid in Fulton County. Zach emails earlier this year, former Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard was part of the FBI raid of the Fulton County Georgia election offices.

21:06I haven't heard much about any fallout of what happened there. Have there been any legal challenges, executive orders or other consequences either for the administration or elections as a result of those actions? Eileen, any updates? So I believe that Fulton County is still engaged in a legal dispute with the Department of Justice over that raid. I do think one effect of that, which we've seen in courts across the country and federal courts across the country, is that the Department of Justice is no longer being afforded the presumption by the courts that they have done their homework, that they are being honest and upfront, that they are doing the high-quality work that until last year was expected of and received from attorneys of the Department of Justice.

21:56As you know, the staff at the Department of Justice, the career staff, has undergone a huge shift, and you no longer have the same folks who were doing the hard work, administration after administration, Republican, Democrat, doing that work now. And it's damaged the Department of Justice's reputation and indeed courts across the country and other jurisdictions outside of Georgia are questioning what attorneys from the Department of Justice are saying and looking much harder at what may be presented by an FBI agent for a warrant than they would have previously. I just want to mention briefly here that we recently had a conversation about the Justice Department's use of the grand jury process and some of the corruption that's been unveiled in the midst of their, let's say, the change of approach to how they're using grand juries.

22:51You can find that conversation over at the 1A.org under the If You Can Keep It series tab. Meanwhile, you mentioned the FBI, DOJ election deniers installed in important positions, both public and not so well known in agencies like that. Kash Patel, who directs the FBI, prominent election denier. Janine Pirro, U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, famous for her election denial rhetoric on Fox News before she was hired by Donald Trump. And you just mentioned or Zach just mentioned Tulsi Gabbard, the former director of national intelligence. And she's gone now, but the new acting is Bill Pulte.

23:28We've talked about him on this show before. He worked in the Federal Housing Administration, helped Donald Trump prosecute some of his enemies. He's an election denier too, a very public one. And now he's in charge, at least acting as DNI. Norm, how do you think people in these – I mentioned the high-profile ones. There are many dozens in less high-profile positions. As a former DOJ official, you would know about them. But how does that affect any races that the president might claim are going to be fraudulent in November if he loses them? Well, the installation of Mr. Pulte is a very important example at Democracy Defenders Fund.

24:07We represent Dr. Lisa Cook. We've litigated that case all the way up to the Supreme Court. that attempted termination of Dr. Cook was based on baseless allegations that Mr. Pulte made about Dr. Cook. They were, as a result, enjoined by a federal court. That injunction remains in place. Having a – and Pulte has been involved in so many others of these cases. Attorney General Tish James, for example. That's a case that was thrown out by the courts and then grand juries refused to charge that case. So having somebody as the director of national intelligence acting who's shown such a propensity without foundation to attack the president's perceived enemies is concerning.

25:04Again, the good news is in all of these cases, powerful pushback. We also represent Fulton County, where there's an effort going on now to obtain the names of election workers. And we've moved to quash that subpoena, and that's being litigated in court. So voters should know, as bad as the election denial surge is, all of us in the democracy movement are working together to push back on it. And what stands out to me, though, is that we hear a lot about the president's actions. You hear about the subpoenas. You hear about the indictments. You hear about the grand jury convenings. And we hear less about the work pushing back.

25:47Part of that is because President Trump is one of the largest bully pulpits in the world. And so how are you thinking about the importance of not just doing the work you're doing, but also making sure the public is aware that you're pushing back in this way, Eileen? That's a great question. The Brennan Center does a lot of communications work, and that's definitely one of our core modes of doing the work that we do in the democracy space. We're not the litigators usually, but making sure that people do understand what is happening. So we do lots of podcasts and writing and things like that, but also a lot of work with election officials and helping election officials also get their messages out because they are the ones who can best explain to all of their constituents, yes, these are safe and secure elections.

26:37And here are the ways you can engage and here are the rules. They are the professionals who are running those elections. So our work with election officials is also very helpful, I think, in reassuring Americans that these elections will continue. They will continue to be safe and secure, and there will be little bumps here and there, but they will continue. Norm, same question to you. And I just want to remind people that the Democracy Defenders Fund is a nonpartisan organization. So you're not working on behalf of a political party. You're working on behalf of the American people as a whole.

27:11That's right. And in fact, we are comprised of those right, left and center. A number of notable conservatives work with us or serve on our board, whether it's Judge Michael Ludig or Stephen Risher, the former Republican, very conservative Maricopa County recorder, Bill Kristol, many others who do this work. And we think of it as being work that you do in the court of law where we have over 300 cases in matters, including focusing on elections, but also in the court of public opinion where it's very important to talk about them. And I will say that in both of those courts, these efforts have suffered substantial losses as happened in the attempted coup of 2020.

28:09And since, we have not had a single successful incident of election sabotage. So as bad as it is, as a former ambassador, this is something I'm used to seeing in totalitarian regimes, not our own country. But as bad as it is, the pushback has been strong to defend voters. And they should know, turnout, your vote will be free and fair. And in fact, we have seen record high turnout over the past 17 months since January 2025 as voters express their opposition to these kind of anti-democratic moves. Well, let's talk about California. We're looking forward to the midterms, but there have been primaries already.

28:53California just recently had mayoral race in Los Angeles gubernatorial elections, as Jen mentioned earlier, and President Trump attacked California's historically slow vote counting process as rigged. He got right in there, and because his chosen candidate didn't win, he called the whole thing rigged. Now, here's House Speaker Mike Johnson fanning those flames for Donald Trump in the Capitol. Listen. Some of these efforts are so diabolical and so far upstream that it's impossible to prove. But I think everybody knows instinctively something is wrong here. This is tennis without the net. So far upstream and so diabolical, you can't possibly prove it.