'If You Can Keep It': The Cracks In The GOP

0:06The Democratic Party has been plagued by infighting, including debates over its aging party leadership and the war in Gaza. We discussed those divisions on the program earlier this month. But today, we turn our attention to cracks in the GOP. When President Trump won the 2024 election, the Republican Party appeared to be in lockstep. Today, not so much. Donald Trump's poll numbers are at near-historic lows, with an approval rating hovering right around 40 percent, and that's helping drive divisions, positioning, and political warfare in the GOP. One example, the falling out between Trump and Georgia Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, who announced last Friday that she'll resign from Congress in January.

0:50I have too much self-respect and dignity. I love my family way too much. And I do not want my sweet district to have to endure a hurtful and hateful primary against me by the president that we all fought for, only to fight and win my election while Republicans will likely lose the midterms. Green also claimed that President Trump is trying to destroy her. She was once among Trump's loudest supporters. These internal divisions within the GOP include backlash over how to address anti-Semitism in the party and the release of the Epstein files. President Trump finally signed the order to release those last week.

1:29For today's installment of our weekly politics series, If You Can Keep It, the cracks in the GOP and what they mean for the midterm elections and the future of the party. I'm Jen White here with Todd Zwilich, and you're listening to the 1A Podcast. We'll be back with all that and more after this short break. Stay with us.

1:51Let's get into the conversation with our guests. Joining us in studio is Will Sommer. He's a senior reporter for the center-right news website, The Bulwark, where he writes their false flag newsletter. The newsletter focuses on the online culture and communities that now run our country. He's also the author of Trust the Plan, The Rise of QAnon and the Conspiracy that Reshaped the World. Well, welcome back to the program. Thanks for having me. Also with us is Kadia Goba. She's a reporter for The Washington Post, where she covers Congress and the internal dynamics and power struggles among Republicans in the House of Representatives.

2:24Kadia, welcome. Thank you for having me. And Andra Gillespie. She's an associate professor of political science at Emory University. Professor Gillespie, it's great to have you back. Thank you for having me. Earlier this month, in a move that sparked a lot of controversy, former Fox host and right-wing commentator Tucker Carlson interviewed far-right influencer Nick Fuentes. Nick Fuentes, thank you for doing this. Yeah, thank you for having me. I wanted to meet you. I've heard about you. I've heard about you. So, thank you. Fuentes' built-in online following around pushing white nationalist ideologies, including Holocaust denial.

3:01And the interview sparked backlash over Fuentes' anti-Semitic remarks. Will, tell us about this interview and why it's dividing the GOP. Sure. So Nick Fuentes, I mean, this is a guy who marched in Charlottesville, someone who really is outside of even the kind of Trumpian politics mainstream of the right, or so we thought. And, I mean, this guy's a Holocaust denier, anti-Jewish, anti-black, all this kind of stuff. And Tucker Carlson, by hosting this interview, they had kind of tangled in the past. Tucker Carlson, by inviting him in for what was a very friendly interview, as we can hear on that clip, was kind of welcoming him into the mainstream of the Republican Party and saying, you know, maybe these ideas can be debated.

3:37Maybe this kind of this racist, anti-Semitic guy is acceptable as a faction within the GOP. And as a result, that upset a lot of people, as you can imagine. Now, President Trump was asked about this interview. He did not criticize Fuentes when asked. And he praised Carlson for having, and I'll quote him here, said good things about me over the years. How are Jewish conservatives reacting to this? I mean, they're very upset by it. I mean, they see particularly even people who are really hardcore Trump supporters who see him as very supportive of Israel, for example. I mean, they're seeing this growing sense of anti-Semitism and kind of neo-Nazism that Fuentes represents and getting more and more attention and clout, as well as some similar influencers.

4:15And that's upsetting them. So, Kadia, earlier this year, of course, and we've covered it here on the show, we saw the Trump administration target a number of U.S. colleges, universities with the claim that it was all about curbing anti-Semitism on campus. So how is that strategy of claiming to combat anti-Semitism, how has it clashed with the movement of anti-Jewish figures like Fuentes into the MAGA mainstream here? You know, I think it's interesting to his point. The reason why we're here is because Trump has always been extremely pro-Israel. But we started to see some of the fractures in, let's say, the House of Representatives when a lot of members, GOP members of Congress kind of sided with other Democrats who didn't want to, I guess, contribute more money to Israel, saying that it wasn't, you know, contributing to wars is not like an America first idea, part of the America first ideology.

5:16So I think you saw, you know, what the administration was doing at campuses contrast with how the House of Representatives or Republicans in the House of Representatives was responding to support with Israel. So for me, that was some of the first public fractures that you started to see with the GOP and Jewish people. Professor Gillespie, to what degree do you think this marks a turning point for the party around anti-Semitism? I'm not sure that it does actually mark a turning point with the Republican Party. I think what we're seeing with both the Democratic and the Republican parties is a reminder that these are big tents just because of the way our system is.

6:04And that while you might see unity temporarily on some issues, there's still a lot of diversity and heterogeneity within the party. And so I think what you're dealing with now is a bit of a reckoning of the fact that MAGA did bring out people who might not have been regular voters, some of whom not all held bigoted views that were stoked actually by political candidates. And now these folks have a foothold and a voice within the party in ways that the establishment has lots of reasons to disagree with. And so whether they disagreed with it for geostrategic reasons, because Israel is an ally in the Middle East, whether it's because they are evangelical.

6:41And so for religious reasons, they are strongly supportive of Israel. They also have to reckon with the fact that they are in the position of power that they are because there have been these alliances that have been made. And I think it's also important to realize that the conservative movement has long had a place for anti-Semites as well. The New York Times just reminded us of this when in looking at this whole Carlson Fuentes story, they, you know, reminded us of the John Birch Society and the anti-Semitism that was held there. So this is something that the Republican Party has struggled with.

7:10It's inopportune now because they want to paint Democrats as being the party of anti-Semitism. And now they're just being reminded of the strains that have always been there for them. You make an excellent point, Professor Gillespie, also that the anti-Semitism we're talking about goes far beyond policy toward Israel. In Nick Fuentes' case, it's anti-Jewish, far outside questions about the war in Gaza or support for Israel. But you mentioned Big Ten, Professor Gillespie, and it reminded me of something Lindsey Graham said earlier this month. He was in front of a gathering of Jewish supporters and voters, and Lindsey Graham said this is a quote, I'm in the Hitler sucks wing of the party.

7:47In other words, count me against these anti-Semites. And Will Sommer, that's an admission of a kind from Lindsey Graham. He's in the Hitler sucks wing. That means there are other wings that are Hitler more, Hitler's okay. Yes, exactly. And I mean, I think he's specifically referring to Nick Fuentes, who said Hitler is really cool, essentially. I mean, that's a quote. And so you're right. I mean, that acknowledges that there is that debate that's emerging within the Republican Party. To the professor's point, I mean, one thing we do have to acknowledge here is that Donald Trump dined with Nick Fuentes and a very anti-Semitic Kanye West three years ago.

8:20So in some ways, this has been creeping into the party. But I think there is this moment that I think Jewish Republicans and people who are just generally not – people, let's say, in the I don't like Hitler camp are really seeing this Tucker Carlson moment as a real watershed. Well, Fuentes' positions and rhetoric aren't just anti-Semitic as you said. well, they're often racist, they're sexist, homophobic, xenophobic. But the anti-Semitic remarks are the source of this pushback within the GOP. Why haven't his other comments received the same energy or attention? I mean, to be frank, I think it's because Jewish Republicans are a significant interest group within the party in a way that, for example, black voters are not seen as a very Republican voting bloc.

9:03I mean, to take one example, conservative commentator Ben Shapiro, who's Jewish, very supportive of Israel, and very opposed to Nick Fuentes, has really been out there, oh, we can't allow this in the party. On the other hand, his own website has run a campaign to pardon Derek Chauvin, the police officer who murdered George Floyd. So to suddenly act as though, you know, oh my gosh, I can't believe there's extremism within the party, I think there are a lot of people who have kind of been looking the other way or promoting racism, anti-Semitism in other ways. Kadia, your thoughts? Yeah, I'll add to that to say, like, Laura Luma also came out and said that she admitted that the Republican Party has a sort of a anti-Semitism problem.

9:43In the past, as the professor pointed out, Republicans have been able to kind of deflect and say that this is, especially right before the 2024 election, to say that this was a problem for Democrats. And now they are in the forefront, especially ahead of the 2026, and answering these questions because I think a lot of Jewish voters, a lot of Jewish donors are particularly interested in where members of the party stand ahead of the election. So I think that is probably why this is, you know, ultimately so pronounced right now. We're hearing from you. Jay writes as an independent, I think it's pathetic that there is no rational party for people in the center.

10:28Both parties are ineffective and have been hijacked by extremists on the left and right. It would be like every professional sports league, only having two teams and then wondering why fans don't get excited. And Pat writes, though it looks dark for the GOP now ahead of the midterm elections, a lot can happen in a year. Both parties will work hard to have a successful outcome. This election will probably see enormous amounts of money spent on both sides. Nothing should be taken for granted. So much is at stake. Coming up, one of the biggest pressure points for Republicans is the economy. We talk about how affordability is causing cracks in the GOP right after this.

11:08Well, rising anti-Semitism is not the only pressure point and fracture point in the GOP. There are others. Concerns over affordability played a major role in recent elections in New Jersey, Virginia, and beyond. Democrats outperformed Republicans in those races. after largely diminishing and dismissing the issue of affordability. President Trump tried to address it last week at a forum for McDonald's franchise owners. And, you know, I just might add, this is also the golden age of America because we are doing better than we've ever done as a country. Prices are coming down and all of that stuff.

11:46And, you know, they talk about different terms for that. But I will tell you that nobody has done what we've done in terms of pricing. We took over a mess. Now, fact check. We should note prices are not coming down in the aggregate. Here's one example. The average price for orange juice is up 29 percent. Prices for ground beef up nearly 14 percent from where they were a year ago. That's according to NBC News's grocery price tracker. Will, as of now, what is President Trump's and the GOP's plan to address the country's affordability crisis? I mean, I'm not seeing anything particularly compelling.

12:23I mean, obviously, even for, I think, a typical administration, this would be a very naughty, complex issue. On the other hand, I think we're seeing, look, I mean, the tariffs are increasing prices. You know, one thing I've been following is there's a real increase after the off-year elections. The right is really trying to focus on housing affordability, supposedly. I've been watching this closely. Commentators like Benny Johnson are saying, we're all about housing now. They have think tanks. But then when I look at what their actual plans are, and we've seen J.D. Vance talk about this as well, it's just keep up the deportations.

12:50Get the get the immigrants out of the country and then everyone will have housing. So it's that kind of same rhetoric. It's the same kind of Trump is policy ideas. I'm not seeing really anything new in terms of what would actually shake up the housing market. Just one example. We got this email from Stefan, who says, as a naturalized citizen and veteran, I participated in my first election during the last cycle. I chose to vote Republican because I remembered that during Donald Trump's first term, the cost of living, particularly groceries, fuel and other essentials, felt more affordable. However, what I and many other Republican voters are experiencing now differs significantly from what was promised.

13:24Aside from allegations of ICE operating beyond its legal boundaries, the administration's emphasis on tariffs has yet to deliver meaningful benefits to everyday Americans. Now, a recent poll from Fox suggests that 76 percent of voters have a negative view of the economy and most blame the president. About twice as many of those polled say Trump rather than Biden is responsible for the current economy. Kadia, what are the political implications of this for the GOP ahead of midterms? Well, there are a lot. As the writer pointed out, that was one of the big promises that President Trump, as well as Republican GOP members of the House and Senate, promised on the campaign trail.

14:07So, you know, not making that a priority. It's not only about prices, right? increase, or obviously that is one of the most significant measures of this failure. But also, it's just the optics of President Trump redoing, from what I hear, voters and members of Congress have an issue with him, you know, redoing part of the White House when people are struggling and on lines to, you know, for food pantry lines. That is problematic. But also, to Will's point about tariffs, that writing was on the wall before, while President Trump was on the campaign campaigning about tariffs. Many members of the House said this would be a problem.

15:05They didn't see that this was the best avenue in addressing affordability or pricing. And yet, you know, the administration pushed forward with it. And now we see that, again, is a problem and prices are increased. So I think it will be definitely the Democrats have taken part of this and made this a mantle. And I think this will be a big issue going into 2026. Well, I also want to just point out, and we have a lot of conversations on this show about how much power a president has over the economy. But there's also what the president says and how people are experiencing the economy. And so for Republican voters who are hearing the president say, we've brought prices down, the economy has never been so good, and then they're going to the grocery store and seeing that, how much those eggs are costing right now, is that creating a sense of dissonance, of cognitive dissonance for Republican voters?

16:04I mean, I think it is. I mean, it's particularly potent, I think, because in the Biden administration, Republicans talked so much about, you know, affordability is everything. Inflation is the most important issue a president can deal with. And now the Trump administration finds itself admired in a lot of the same stuff. I mean, we're looking at, you know, Trump, J.D. Vance saying, you know, give us time. I mean, a lot of it really recalls the Biden administration, sort of this inability to slow inflation. And I do think Republican voters are getting, you know, as we heard from one of the listeners who wrote in, are getting kind of fed up with it.

16:35Professor Gillespie, on affordability, I mean, it's true. Everybody goes to the store, Republican, Democrat, independent, right wing, left wing. We all go to the store, so we all pay prices. It's easy to see how the issue affects all voters. But Will said something interesting earlier. He said that Republican efforts to address affordability now seem to be falling back on the culture wars, right? Just to port more people, there'll be more houses for the rest of us is part of the argument. How do you think the affordability issue, to the extent it's become one, is driving tensions within the GOP?

17:09Well, I think that there are a number of issues. So one, I think the way this comes out, theoretically speaking, is it helps to kind of define what flavor of populism certain people are describing to. I think that that's a lot of the fight, say, between Marjorie Taylor Greene and Donald Trump. Are you going to kind of side with the people demonstrate empathy? Or are you going to deny what people are feeling and then sometimes engage in certain activities that could be optically problematic? So whether it's building a$300 million ballroom or whether it's hanging out with tech billionaires who might be creating industries that could displace a lot of white collar workers.

17:52These are the things that I think the Trump administration is dealing with, but they're also dealing with having to account for the campaign promises that they made, that they were going to deal with inflation very quickly, that they were better able to deal with the economy. You know, most people who thought that Trump was going to do a better job on the economy voted for him. There's evidence or that would suggest kind of that, you know, that hasn't been, that wasn't directly applied. The data that I've seen actually kind of predates the 2024 election, but that suggested that Latino independence in particular could be swayed by which candidate was perceived to be the better candidate on the economy.

18:30So my colleague Derek Wakefield has talked about these types of issues. So I think there were a lot of people who put their trust in Donald Trump because they figured he would do better than Joe Biden did on handling the economy. And this wasn't just kind of some pipe dream. It was also they had remembered sort of better economic times under his first administration before COVID, who are now deeply disappointed at the fact that he doesn't seem to be handling the economy as well or as quickly as they would have wanted him to. Well, Trump's speech at the McDonald's summit received attention for another reason, Will.

19:03Many found it rambling and very difficult to follow. We'll talk more about what a post-Trump GOP could look like a little later, but how important is it not just that the party pin down a firm policy around affordability, but a clear and coherent message around it as well. And who's going to drive that message? Well, I mean, again, it's very reminiscent of the Biden administration where we have a president who is sort of struggling to articulate what the plan is. You know, I mean, obviously, the Trump people call this the weave, essentially, when Trump gets up there and makes no sense or, you know, jumps over all different kinds of topics.

19:41So the fact that they have a, you know, a beloved pet term for it, you know, I think demonstrates how much of an issue it is. And I think, frankly, Donald Trump really doesn't care about this issue. I mean, I don't think when he gets up there and he tells stories about, oh, you know, hanging out with Arnold Palmer and all these other rich people as he's, you know, pardoning people for white collar crimes, you know, building the new ballroom. I mean, there's a lot of things I think that are heightening this potential campaign message for Democrats to say that, you know, Donald Trump does not care about the little guy.

20:08Well, if we're going to talk about cracks in the GOP, we have to talk about the Epstein files. Of course, there was a major vote in the House of Representatives just last week, which almost every Republican except for one voted for the release of the files. But this was only after it became clear to the president and to the White House that as many as 100 or maybe more Republicans might break ranks, go against Donald Trump and vote to release the files. So we're all pretty familiar with the saga of the Epstein files at this point, what might be in them, what might not be in them. I guess we could talk about what is or not in them.

20:43But this was a major departure, Will Sommer, of Republicans. Again, it was only after Trump did the math and knew that he was going to lose this vote that he became for it. Why have the Epstein files divided the party and Trump supporters so much? What's the dynamic here and the tension that's pushing on both sides of this? Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question because we've seen so many other scandals in the Trump administration in less than a year. And we can say, well, why have these not really resonated with Republican voters in a way that this one has? And I think it's because for years Republican voters were told by people like J.D.

21:15Vance, Cash Patel, all the right-wing media apparatus, that the Epstein files really, really mattered, that there was a client list. I mean, Pam Bondi said she had the client list. And people assumed, oh, it's going to be on the right. It's going to be all these Democratic pedophiles. All my enemies are going to be wiped off the map and arrested. And then suddenly Donald Trump says, oh, never mind. And he starts insulting people who are interested in the story. So already this issue was couched in the language of right-wing media as a thing that mattered. And I think that is why we saw so many defections, why we saw the administration realize, you know, this is a freight train and we got to get out of the way.

21:47Kadia, Republican lawmakers have historically been reluctant to criticize President Trump publicly. But for some, I mean, that reluctance has not at all applied to calling for the release of the Epstein files. Why? Well, two things. Will is correct. There's this inconsistency about releasing files that kind of angered the base. But also there's this idea that the administration is protecting, you know, high profiled rich people. And that kind of goes against this idea of Donald Trump running for the everyday man or just middle class voters. So I think they see this as sort of an affront. But I will say, on the Hill, months ago when this started percolating, one of the big things Republicans told me is that they were getting a lot of phone calls from people in their district encouraging them to release the files.

22:46This is before there was even a vote on the floor or before there was a thought about a vote. And it was them, it was their voters who were pushing them, which is why we saw this huge delay, largely pushed by Speaker Johnson, on actually putting a vote on the floor. Because it was clear that there was going to be some fracture and specifically against what Donald Trump was saying at the time. Kadia, I'm curious what you're hearing from Republicans on the Hill, though, on this issue. We all watched the vote and the math worked out just as you described. Republicans were getting calls from the base and from angry constituents.

23:24I don't remember hearing from hardly any, except, you know, Thomas Massey and the high profile ones, from any Republicans objecting to Donald Trump sending the deputy attorney general to interview a convicted sex offender, Ghislaine Maxwell, and then giving her special treatment at a minimum security prison with special privileges and then refusing to say he wouldn't pardon her. Scandalous, scandalous bit of influence with a convicted sex offender. And at that point, I didn't hear anything from Republicans on the Hill objecting to that. It was only when it came to the vote. It's a good question.

24:03I think most of them wanted to detach themselves. But if you ask them privately, I think they would definitely say that they were against that. Because to my point, it gave the impression that he was protecting someone of power. And, you know, they're just going to get pushback from that. Now, I'm not giving them a ton of credit because, like I said, most of them were encouraged to do this or encouraged to vote against this because they were getting such pushback. But ideally, pushback from their constituents and voters. But ideally, they just don't want to go against the president. Just like that is where we have seen GOP lawmakers for many months now and a couple of years, even since the, you know, at the end of the last administration.

24:51So this is something I could say was very prompted by the grassroots. Professor Gillespie? You know, I think the other thing that's really important is that it's very different when there's a vote that can then be attached to you that could be used against you in advertising later versus necessarily making statements here. And I also don't want to discount kind of the motivation behind the concern around pedophilia. So if you think about one of the QAnon conspiracies, you know, that there is supposed to be this sort of international cabal of people who are trafficking children. Right. And it was used so that you could other Democrats and say that those are bad people because they mistreat children.

25:30But I take the underlying concern for children as being something that serious, which is why I think people had, you know, felt comfortable in being able to go against the Trump administration because they were standing on the right side of something that people care about. And I just think that the other sort of issue that comes down here for the vote is nobody wants to get primaried or have a general election ad that gets used against you that says, you know, you voted to protect a pedophile first and foremost. And so, you know, I think people felt comfortable in that way and that that was also buoyed by the fact that you had constituents in the districts who were also articulating their desire to see the Epstein file released.