'If You Can Keep It': The Fight Over Redistricting In Texas

0:07You're listening to the 1A Podcast. I'm Jen White. And I'm Todd Zwilich. An extraordinary fight is underway in Texas over redistricting. It's turning into a showdown that has nationwide implications. Today's conversation isn't just about redistricting, something that happens every decade or so in dozens of states across the country. It's about the House of Representatives. And it's about a president who has been vocal about his desire to consolidate power and shore up GOP prospects in the 2026 midterms. Here's what President Trump told CNBC last Tuesday. We have an opportunity in Texas to pick up five seats.

0:42We have a really good governor and we have good people in Texas. And I won Texas. I got the highest vote in the history of Texas, as you probably know. And we are entitled to five more seats. Republicans are entitled to five more seats based on the results of the last presidential election, the president says. That's not how representation is decided in this country. So what kicked all of this off? Last week, Republicans in Texas moved to give Donald Trump what he demanded. They executed a highly unusual plan to use their majorities and simply redraw state congressional maps to GOP advantage in the middle of the decade.

1:23And last week, more than 50 Democratic lawmakers in Texas fled the state to break quorum and prevent their statehouse from voting on those new redrawn congressional maps. The Democrats' revolt, threats of retaliation, and Texas Governor Greg Abbott's threats have intensified the fight. For today's installment of our politics series, If You Can Keep It, we talk about the fight over redistricting in Texas and what it means for the state of our democracy. That and more after this short break. Stay with us.

1:56Let's get into it with one of our favorite political experts, Reed Wilson. He's the founder and editor of Pluribus News. Reid, it's always great to have you on. Hi, Jen. Thanks for having me. So just about every election cycle, we discuss congressional districts, but they're not fixed, nor are they natural lines. Like borders of all countries, they are man-made. They are influenced by partisanship, bias, vested interest, and they are a right given to state legislators under the Constitution. Now, some states do have independent commissions to draw these lines. Most do not. And this fight has drawn plenty of confusion.

2:27Here's Barbara with a question that echoed many in our inbox. I'm confused on what the Texas laws are. Are they required to wait every 10 years, and that's what they're going from the census to the census, and that's what they're trying to break the law? Or is that just a common practice and not something that's required? And Kathleen emailed, what population stats is Texas using for this? If it's the 2020 census, why would it change? Did they just make it up? Okay, so Reed, the Texas legislature was not due to redraw the map this year. Where did these maps come from? These maps came from the state legislature itself.

3:02Governor Abbott and the House Speaker and the Lieutenant Governor created special redistricting committees that then drew up new proposed map lines. And the new map lines would shift at least five seats from Democratic control to probably Republican control. I mean, the elections still have to happen, but they would give – they would create five new districts that President Trump won by more than 10 percentage points in 2024. and this is not unusual for Texas. Let me say that a different way. It is unusual for a state to redraw district lines in the middle of a decade, but it's not unheard of.

3:40And in fact, it happened for the first real time in 2003 in Texas when then House Majority Leader Tom DeLay inspired Republicans in Austin to redraw map lines after they claimed control of the Texas legislature. Back then, 51 Democrats fled to Oklahoma and stayed there for a small hotel in Ardmore, Oklahoma for a couple of months. Senate Democrats then fled to New Mexico for 46 days. But at the end of the day, the governor kept calling special sessions. The Democrats eventually returned and the maps passed. And again, to Kathleen's question, what population stats is Texas using? They're still using data from the 2020 census.

4:17Excuse me, 2020 census. Yeah, there's no necessary reason to redraw these maps mid-decade, But there's nothing in the state law or state constitution that prohibits lawmakers from doing so. We're going to draw a line between what's going on in Texas now and what's been happening more broadly with the democracy and the one person, one vote principle in this country over the last 10, 20 years. But for now, let's talk about the maps themselves. Here's Democratic Texas Congresswoman Julie Johnson talking about the proposed news district lines in Texas. They have divided it into seven new congressional districts.

4:53Two that go all the way to the Oklahoma border. Two that go almost from Dallas to the Louisiana border. And then the others in a mishmash of rural Texas. Reid, Representative Johnson there is describing what's known as a gerrymander, a partisan gerrymander. What can you tell us about this specific map in Texas? What areas are Republicans changing and why? So they're focusing on sort of three distinct areas here. The first is the Rio Grande Valley, which is largely Hispanic. Republicans have been making inroads down there for the last several years. There are two Democratic-held districts, both of which went for President Trump by narrow margins in 2024 but elected Democratic members of Congress.

5:37Both of those districts would be redrawn to further advantage Republicans. There are a couple of districts, including Representative Johnson's district in the Dallas Metroplex, that they have redrawn those seats so that those two members, two Democratic members of Congress would face Republican incumbents in districts that are much more heavily Republican than the ones that they currently hold. And then they focused on Central Texas, basically the corridor between San Antonio and Austin, where there are two Democrats, Greg Cesar and Lloyd Doggett, who Doggett has been there for a thousand years.

6:13Cesar is a relatively newer member. They have redrawn those two members together, sort of consolidating two Democratic districts into one. And then there will be another district in Houston that is changed a little bit. That district is currently vacant. Former Congressman Al Green passed away earlier this year. Excuse me, former Congressman Sylvester Ray, Sylvester, I'm going to blank on his last name now, passed away earlier this year. But that would be another, the fifth district essentially. So when we talk about the voters most impacted by these proposed maps, and we know that minority voters are often at the heart of questions about whether redistricting maps are fair and representative of the people in that state, what do these maps do to the strength of those votes?

6:56So interestingly enough, these maps actually create more majority minority districts than the existing maps do. So under the current lines, there are 22 districts that are white majority in Texas, seven that are Hispanic majority, and nine where there's no particular racial majority. Under the new proposed maps, there are 24 white districts, so two more, eight Hispanic majority districts, so one more, and two black majority districts, as well as four that would remain with no particular vote. However, the changes in demographic voting patterns mean that some of these districts, even though they are more Hispanic-heavy, are going to favor Republicans more than they do currently.

7:35Well, let's go to our inbox. Here's listener Jack in Tampa, Florida. I appreciate all of the thoughtful analysis on, you know, the census and how often this should be done and what our practices are. But I think you're missing the most obvious picture here, and that is that this is part of the ongoing slow-motion coup. This is fascism in its legal phase. And if they fail to use methods like this to retain control of Congress in the midterms, you will see accusations, you will see a replay of January 6th. You'll see election fraud accusations and you'll see actions taken and whatever means necessary to not seat democratically or elected Democratic legislatures.

8:18So the Republicans retain control of Congress. Jack, thanks for that message. And that's a sentiment shared by Representative Diego Bernal, a Texas lawmaker who fled to Illinois. Here he is on MSNBC on Friday. Even if it does result in arrest, remember this, they're not arresting us to take us to jail. They're arresting us to take us back to the House floor to vote on maps that benefit them. If that's not fascism, I don't know what is. Reed, Jack in Tampa draws a line directly from what's going on in Texas back to January 6th, that Republicans no longer want to compete in elections. That's what January 6 was about.

8:56Donald Trump lost, tried to overturn it. Elected Republicans supported him and continued to support him in that effort. I get that gerrymandering happens on both sides all over America, but this situation is different in Texas midterm. Donald Trump said, I'm doing great in Texas. We deserve the seats. I think the difference is that Donald Trump said the quiet part loud. This is a practice that you mentioned gerrymandering. That comes from Elbridge Gary, the governor of Massachusetts who signed a bill that created a salamander-like district. Somebody called it a Jerry's salamander, a gerrymander.

9:29That's where the word comes from. That was back in 1812. In the very first election for U.S. House, Patrick Henry, who controlled the Virginia House of Delegates, created a map that pitted James Madison against James Monroe in an effort to keep Madison out of the U.S. House of Representatives. You know, back in the day, the Burton brothers, John Burton and Phil Burton in California, redrew their maps to favor the Democratic Party. So the quiet part loud, though, what's the quiet part? The quiet part is that drawing map lines is an inherently political exercise. And you're doing it, the people who control it will do it for their own benefit.

10:06So this is, I don't see a lot of difference here between what John and Phil Burton did in California in the 80s when John Burton would call it, some of these crazily drawn maps. He'd call it my contribution to modern art. So this is redrawing maps itself. I don't, you know, this is something that's happened throughout American history. This is just the most egregious example of it because they're saying we're doing this to win five extra seats, whereas most people don't actually say that out loud. Coming up, we speak to a Democratic lawmaker from Texas who fled the state to stop Republicans from implementing the map by denying the legislature a quorum.

10:42That's just ahead.

10:48Let's get back to the conversation with this message we got from one of you. Hey, this is Evan from Wisconsin. I think we need to rework the whole system. It seems like every time a party gets in power or has a majority, they redistrict, making it unfavorable for the other party to be able to regain the majority. Something that maybe needs to be considered is maybe we just need to start over with the maps and have it a little bit more fair for all. Thanks for that message. Now let's add another voice to the conversation. Texas State Representative Ann Johnson is among the dozens of state Democrats who are currently in Illinois.

11:22Representative Johnson, welcome to 1A. Thank you for the invitation. Honored to be with you. Now, Representative Johnson, you're facing a daily$500 fine for each day you're absent, plus a pro rata share of what the statehouse sergeant at arms spends in their efforts to compel you to return to the Capitol in Austin. There have also been bomb threats at the hotel where many of your colleagues have been staying in the Chicago area. As we know, the Texas House again failed to reach a quorum on Friday because Democrats refused to return to the state. The House reconvenes today, Monday. They'll try again.

11:53How long do you plan to fight this move? Well, right now we are in the first called special session by the governor, and our goal is to defeat this particular special session. The governor decides what's important for us to debate or talk about on behalf of the people of Texas. And despite the fact that we have had a devastating flood in central Texas where at least 137 people died, he has made it the priority that what we're supposed to do is redistrict mid-decade. It's actually a violation of our Texas Constitution. Our Texas Constitution says we only do this once every 10 years. And it is to the benefit of Trump.

12:33They want to steal five seats. And so when we should be debating other issues that are good public policy for Texans, they've got us there for this. And make no mistake, he has put 18 items on the call. He's put flooding on the call. They're talking about flooding now. But everybody needs to look at the fact that we were there for two weeks. There was only one bill that was actually brought up for hearing. That's redistricting. And they have sought our arrest on one bill and one bill only. And that's redistricting. Well, again, but Representative, how long are you planning to stay out of the state?

13:08Yeah, so the end of this session is August 19th, and that is our goal. Our goal is to be gone through this special session and defeat this special session. Governor Abbott gets to decide what happens next. He gets to decide if he calls another special, what are we brought in to talk about? And so it will be his move next after we get through this special session. Representative, the governor has also threatened to add, this is a quote, six, seven or eight new seats to GOP drawn maps as a as a punishment for what you and Democrats are doing. Texas Senator John Cornyn has said the FBI is coming after you, although I don't know if we've seen evidence of that.

13:46And other Republican representatives who will who we will hear from have urged the state to come and come and get and even arrest you and your colleagues. Is there a consequence, an incentive that will be enough to bring you back to the state now, aside from an end to the session? I mean, one, I think you're seeing how desperate they are. I mean, this is a virtual temper tantrum by the governor and now a U.S. sitting senator who is trying to get the FBI to come and get us. They have threatened our leadership positions. As you mentioned, the fine. We make$600 a month. We are a part-time legislature.

14:21and my Republican colleagues want to not only find me$500 a day, but as you said, they want me and my colleagues to pay the tab for the police officers they're putting out front of our houses, even though they know we're all out of state. Talk about a waste of taxpayer dollars. And now they've asked their supporters to hunt us down. We are receiving threats. And so as my colleagues sit on their hands silently and say nothing in this moment, in the manner in which they are doing each and everything they can. Literally to drag us back, as Representative Bernal said, they just want us to sit in our seats.

14:57They want us to sit, shut up, and have them pass this bill. But if they do, you silence the voice of voters. Just as you said, Governor Abbott's now saying, okay, now it's no longer five. I'm going to do more. They are telling Texans that they are going to rig the system before this next election to determine who your elected representatives are before you even walk into the ballot box. That is offensive to everybody, Republican and Democrat, and why I think we are grateful to spark a national conversation around the fact that we ought to do it differently. Let's eliminate gerrymandering. Let's go back to an independent commission to redraw the lines and let the people pick their voters.

15:37Well, Representative Johnson, Todd and I spoke just a little while ago to one of the Republicans who's fighting to push through these new congressional maps, Texas State Representative Brian Harrison. He represents the 10th district in the Texas House of Representatives, and we asked him to explain his reasons for this redistricting push. Here's some of what he shared. I have lots of reasons that inform my desire to do this. I'll rattle off just a few. I mean, number one, the laws have changed and Supreme Court cases have come out with regards to the way the law treats coalition districts. Number two, the Census Bureau itself has admitted to massively undercounting the population in the state of Texas.

16:16So there are people down here not getting the representation they deserve. Number three, we have had literally millions of people flood into the state of Texas since that census was conducted. Number four, we have had significant changes in voting trends here among Texas voters, particularly among Hispanic voters down south in the Rio Grande Valley area where voters have been fleeing the failed liberal policies of the Democrat Party in droves. So I have lots of very substantive reasons. And it's past time the state of Texas gets these maps done that more adequately reflect the will of the voters of the state of Texas.

16:56So you've been outspoken in wanting Democrats to be forcibly brought back to Texas for this redistricting vote. You've also called for their arrests. How do you expect arrest warrants to be enforced? Well, I don't exactly know. I mean, there's lots of legal machinations happening on that point right now. But, I mean, the easier solution would have been to stop this from happening in the first place. I mean, quite frankly, if elected Republican leadership in Texas had been bolder or actually wanted to stop it, they had all the tools available to stop it before they left or to have arrested them before they left the state.

17:30So it's admittedly much harder now that they're in another state's jurisdiction, but we need to be pursuing every possible means to have them arrested and brought back to Texas. I think that by now they've been gone one week. We should add one more Republican seat to the map for every week they're gone. I want to add one more Republican seat to this map. It's impossible to overstate the stakes here. I mean, they couldn't be higher. We're talking about the controls the United States Congress in next year's midterm elections. So the implications are, I mean, they can't get bigger. Representative Johnson, I'd love to hear your response to what your colleagues shared there.

18:09Yeah, there's a lot to unpack with Brian's statement there, but I think the first thing that scares the hell out of me is his suggestion that they want to redo data mid-district redistricting and pull seats from other states into Texas, where you now know Texas Republicans will bend the knee to whatever Trump's wishes are. And that should scare you, because you all recall after the election in which he lost, Trump picked up the phone, called Georgia Republicans and said, boys, I need you to find me 12 ,000 votes. And to their credit, they said, no, sir, that's a line too far. We won't do that for you.

18:46Problem is today, Trump is calling Texas Republicans and Governor Abbott and saying, boys, I need you to find me five new seats. And they said, does July work for you? It is only because Democrats stood up and said, no, we're not going to let you rig the next election that now we are in this position. That now they know that these Republicans will do anything he wants. The fact that they're talking about trying to change the system is what should scare everybody. He said it. They want to control the outcome of the next election. and it's about who controls it. Do the voters get to go to the ballot box in November, 2026 and fairly decide who they want as a check and balance on this administration?

19:31And Republicans out of Texas are saying, no, they're saying we'll take as many seats as we want because they think they can. And so we're standing up against it. I'm very proud of the Democrats, not only in Texas that are doing it, Democrats around the nation that are saying, look, if Texas is going to cheat like this, if they're going to go try to steal the next election, we're going to step up and we're going to respond. And you know what? They don't like that now, because now you have Republican congressmen out of blue states now trying to pass a law to say that we shouldn't do what Texas is trying to do right now.

20:05Well, let's hear from some of the governors in blue states who are responding to Texas Governor Greg Abbott and your Texas colleagues. Kathy Hochul of New York is one. Gavin Newsom in California is another. The ultimate determination will be by the people of the state of California. We will offer them the opportunity to make judgment for themselves again, only if Texas moves forward. They've triggered this response and we're not going to roll over and we're going to fight fire with fire. We also got this comment from Peter in Pennsylvania. Peter says, I find it ironic and disingenuous that the Democrats are painting themselves as defenders of democracy when they are the champions of silencing dissenting voices.

20:50They're guilty of gerrymandering. They wanted to eliminate the filibuster when they were in the majority, and they proposed stacking courts to impose their own policies on the rest of the country. Representative, that's what Peter has to say. I will just add that Democrats did not end the filibuster in the U.S. Senate. There were some who wanted to. They also did not stack the courts, although there were some who wanted to. But in the broader scope, hearing Governor Newsom and hearing from Peter there, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, I disagree with Peter and the idea that the Democrats have tried to do something around the filibuster or not played by a fair set of rules.

21:30Democrats, we notoriously will take the high road. Don't forget Republicans, when Merrick Garland was nominated for the United States Supreme Court, said, no, we can't elect him because we're in the middle of the election cycle. Hold the tape. We'll never do this. When Ruth Bader Ginsburg passed away, Republicans raced at the last minute to try to replace her with Amy Comey Barrett and did it without a filibuster-proof vote. And so I think that's where we are right now as Democrats. Republicans have been fine with playing by their own set of rules, whether it's pushing nominees onto the United States Supreme Court and not allowing the same rules for Democrats, or here, where we're not supposed to do mid-decade redistricting, but Republicans have decided they will because Trump a few weeks ago said, it's a simple draw, go to Texas and you can get me five more seats.

22:24I appreciate that Governor Newsom has said he will only do it as a trigger, meaning a response to Texas. If Texas goes forward, then Democrats are saying we're going to fight back. It is up to Republicans if they're going to go back to the normalcy of the system in the process to allow the existing lines to maintain through this decade. Our Monday shows, Representative, are focused on the stakes for our democracy. And we got some other messages. Joe emailed us. Texas is just doing what the Democrats have done over the last few years. Rick says Oregon has been in the same situation, the difference being Democrats were in control.

22:58We've seen gerrymandering used by politicians on both sides of the aisle. But we're at a point when it feels like the stakes are higher right now. So to your mind, as a state legislator, what is the answer? I mean, I have thought the answer is an independent commission to redraw lines for a long time. That's legislation that I've offered multiple times and my Democratic colleagues always support it. We can't even get a hearing in Texas. And so I understand that you have states that are more red and more blue. And none of us like the idea that it's winner take all. And if it's a red state, then all your representatives are Republican or same in the blue states.

23:40And so the only way you can get around that is if you do some kind of a national commitment to independent commissions to redraw the lines, meaning you don't have me as an elected official drawing my lines for my next election to determine the outcome. You get an independent commission of citizens to draw the lines and then have us go compete on fair ideas and policy. And I would add in there, let's also add campaign finance reform because in Texas, we have zero limits. And so there are complexities to making this system more fair and we should absolutely do it. But it has to be commitment nationwide.

24:17You have between roughly nine and 15 states, including California, that have already done this. But when everybody's not playing by the same set of rules, it's not fair. And so I do think, hopefully, that is the ultimate spark to what's happening here in this debate where people are seeing and saying, whether you're Republican or Democrat, nobody likes gerrymandering. Nobody likes it. So let's get rid of it, but let's do it nationwide. I want to go back to our inbox. Here's a message we got from Kim in Kansas City, Missouri. My state, Missouri, everyone's been, both parties have gerrymandered lines.