In short
The 1A Podcast episode examines proposed Trump administration changes to Head Start—cutting over 1,400 federal regulations and shifting decisions to local programs/states—plus a fact-check and reporting on major SNAP (food stamp) changes tied to new work requirements and state cost-sharing.
Guests and backgrounds
Assistant Secretary Alex Adams (Administration for Children and Families, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services) oversees Head Start policy. Mariah Ballingat (Associated Press) covers early childhood. Leah Douglas (Reuters) covers SNAP. Chris Bernard (Hunger Free Oklahoma, president/CEO) leads Oklahoma’s anti-hunger efforts.
Key claims
Adams says regulation cuts will reduce costs, increase access/slots, and rely on statutory protections; he disputes that Biden “cut slots,” arguing costs and staffing drove enrollment down. Ballingat says Biden didn’t deliberately cut slots; enrollment fell due to higher operating costs, teacher shortages, and other state pre-K expansion. Douglas and Bernard argue SNAP reductions are not mainly fraud or jobs; states tighten eligibility to avoid penalties, causing large enrollment drops and longer access barriers.
Notable examples
Children’s Equity Project analysis estimating up to 80% could face higher student-to-teacher ratios; Oklahoma SNAP participation down 14% (147,000 fewer people) with 42% kids and 10% seniors; Reuters notes Arizona enrollment down over 50% and Florida/Georgia over 20%.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOOverview of Head Start
0:31 to 1:41
Understanding the purpose and history of the Head Start program.
“When Head Start was founded, the idea was simple.”
Proposed Changes by Trump Administration
1:41 to 2:17
Discussion of the proposed changes to Head Start and their implications.
“and what happens if those federal standards go away.”
Interview with Assistant Secretary Alex Adams
2:40 to 3:40
Assistant Secretary Alex Adams discusses the proposed changes and their rationale.
“Joining us from the Department of Health and Human Services headquarters here in D.C.”
Regulatory Changes and Local Decision-Making
3:40 to 6:28
Exploring the specifics of the regulatory changes and implications for local programs.
“It outlines how Head Start programs are governed.”
Concerns Over Child Safety and Program Quality
6:28 to 7:50
Discussion of concerns regarding child safety and quality of Head Start.
“If you give regulations in advance to certain special interests, it gives an unequal opportunity for people to comment.”
The Impact of Budget Decisions on Head Start
7:50 to 11:28
Analyzing how budgetary decisions at the state level might affect Head Start programs.
“facilities under a one size fits all regime that's dictated by this building here in Washington, we're saying, I trust these individuals.”
Personal Stories of Head Start
14:00 to 14:53
Listeners share their transformative experiences with Head Start.
“As a child going through Head Start with a single mom who was raising three kids, that was invaluable, not only for her, but also me.”
Discussion with Mariah Ballingat
14:53 to 16:30
Mariah Ballingat discusses the current state of Head Start programs.
“She covers early childhood for the Associated Press.”
Impact of Funding on Head Start
16:30 to 17:31
Exploration of how federal funding impacts Head Start enrollment and operations.
“And some Head Starts I've spoken to have had to cut slots because they really can't find instructors in the classroom.”
The Role of Families in Head Start
17:31 to 20:16
The importance of family involvement and support through Head Start.
“And in this economy, a level funding is a cut.”
Show all 18 chapters
Goals and Outcomes for Families
20:16 to 21:45
Discussion on the goals and outcomes for families involved in Head Start.
“And these changes that are being proposed are only going to affect the quality of services provided.”
Potential Changes in Regulations
21:45 to 23:14
How proposed changes could affect Head Start experiences across states.
“And I think that's part of the reason it's so popular in many communities, Republican, Democratic, is that it's also a workforce development program.”
Concerns Over Funding and Regulations
23:14 to 24:48
Concerns surrounding potential funding cuts and regulatory changes affecting Head Start.
“We got this question from John in Bethesda, who says, The assistant secretary said the federal government will increase the number of children serviced by Head Start.”
Proposed Regulations and Their Implications
24:48 to 25:52
Exploration of proposed regulations and implications for Head Start programs.
“Yeah, I mean, certainly it, in some ways, it is also making it harder for homeless children and for children or for parents who don't work at all to actually get their children.”
Analyzing the Impact of SNAP Changes
28:00 to 30:25
Explore the reasons behind the decline in SNAP enrollment and its connection to economic conditions.
“A lot of it is people taking the program that shouldn't have been.”
Voices from Hunger Free Oklahoma
30:54 to 38:28
Hear from Chris Bernard about the challenges and changes in SNAP programs in Oklahoma.
“Let's add another voice to the conversation.”
Comparative State Challenges
38:28 to 42:00
Discuss the similarities in SNAP challenges across states and their implications for families.
“Like regardless of what party you're in, I think everyone can agree on that and this is detrimental to that cause.”
Impact of SNAP Cuts on Low-Income Families
42:00 to 45:59
Explore the implications of potential cuts to the SNAP program and its effects on low-income families.
“You know, I've often spoken to SNAP recipients or now former SNAP recipients who are having to choose between, am I paying my energy bill?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00What makes a perfect cover song? One that's so good, it completely eclipses the original. On the latest All Songs Considered from NPR Music, we make a case for the greatest of all time. That is what I want out of a great cover. Something that picks out the thing that was in the song, but that was not made explicit. Check out new episodes of All Songs Considered in the NPR Music podcast every Tuesday.
0:31When Head Start was founded, the idea was simple. Give children from low-income families a running start before kindergarten, not just with preschool classes and child care, but with health screenings and support for their families. Sixty years later, it serves more than three-quarters of a million children and their families every year. But the Trump administration thinks the program is too costly and inefficient. Last week, the administration proposed the most significant changes to Head Start in decades. The proposed changes eliminate many of the federal standards for how the programs are run.
1:03Over 1 ,400 regulations are affected. Instead, those decisions would be handed to the states. Officials say the changes will save money and open new slots for hundreds of thousands of kids. Critics say stripping the standards is the first step towards dismantling the program entirely. Later, we look at another federal anti-poverty program under pressure, the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, better known as SNAP. More than 4 million people have lost food stamp benefits since Congress expanded work requirements last year. I'm Jen White. You're listening to the 1A Podcast. Today, we ask who those people are and what's happened to them.
1:40But first, what the evidence says about whether Head Start works and what happens if those federal standards go away. That's right after this.
1:52Attention! A PSA from Shortwave, NPR science podcast. You need to be paying more attention to your poop. I really do think that this deep stigma we have about talking about pooping is tied to these early-onset colorectal cancer cases. What to watch out for and how to decode the secret messages hidden in your poop on Shortwave. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. The Working Class. It's a term politicians throw around a lot these days, but do we know what it actually means? Midterm elections are coming up, and on It's Been a Minute, we discuss who these candidates are really talking about.
2:30Watch the full It's Been a Minute episode on YouTube or listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
2:39Let's jump into our conversation on Head Start with our first guest. Joining us from the Department of Health and Human Services headquarters here in D.C. is Assistant Secretary Alex Adams of the Administration for Children and Families, ACF Overseas Head Start at the federal level. Assistant Secretary, welcome. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here, Jen. So the administration proposed this overhaul of Head Start last week. It would cut more than a thousand regulations that govern how the program is implemented. What are some of the key regulations you're targeting? Well, first, let me back up and say Head Start is a program that is incredibly important to my boss, Secretary Robert F.
3:19Kennedy Jr. His uncles were involved in the creation of the program. So a lot of what we're trying to achieve here is go back to the basic building blocks that you said in the intro. We want children to be ready for kindergarten. We want families to have comprehensive wraparound supports. And a lot of what we're doing is just going back to the statutory principles. The statute was most recently updated in 2007, and it has strong protections. It outlines how Head Start programs are governed. It outlines civil right protections. It preferences children with disabilities, children experiencing homelessness, foster youth, et cetera, et cetera.
4:00And a lot of our message is the statute has a strong foundation. over time, regulation after regulation was added with a prominent rewrite in 2016 and more recently in 2024. And a lot of those regulations drove up the cost of Head Start and as a consequence, reduced access to Head Start. So you said at the beginning that there are 750 ,000 funded slots in Head Start, I'm afraid to say that is no longer the case. It's in the low 700 ,000s and likely to drop in the 600 ,000s. If we zoom out even further, I said one of the major rewrites was in 2016. Just before that, we had almost a million children in Head Start.
4:47So if the goal is to increase the slots, what regulations are you targeting to make that happen? All the ticky-tacky requirements that have been added in over time, hyper-specific requirements on how parent advisory councils are governed and on and on. So what we're doing is we're getting out of the mindset of adding regulations, adding cost, and reducing opportunity. If you look at the Biden administration alone and what they did in 2024, it eliminated 100 ,000 slots. So, you know, for the folks that believe in this program, and I'm among them, you want more kids to be able to access these beneficial services, not just child care, but wraparound support.
5:33The Biden administration eliminated opportunity for 100 ,000 children. So that means today there are fewer children with disability getting access to Head Start. There are fewer foster youth getting access to Head Start. There are fewer children of color getting access to Head Start and on and on and on. This reverses that trend. Well, we spoke to several Head Start associations who say they welcome a review of the existing rules and efforts to improve efficiency in the program, but they say they were not consulted on these proposed changes. Did you speak with grantees and state-level Head Start associations before developing this plan?
6:10So when you propose regulations, they're governed under the Administrative Procedures Act, and it sets up a 60-day public comment period. Proposed regulations are just that. They're proposed. They're not final. So this is our call for consultation for anyone with expertise in Head Start, finance, administration, et cetera, et cetera. If you give regulations in advance to certain special interests, it gives an unequal opportunity for people to comment. So it'd be improper to give the regulations to anyone in advance. That said, we've had conversations with a number of individuals that helped inform the conversations.
6:48I've visited Head Starts both individually and with Secretary Kennedy. We met with national associations that represent providers. We met with consultants. We met with folks who have early childhood expertise.
7:03We on the quality of the program, the services, et cetera, et cetera. So this was calibrated based on the totality of those conversations. You put it out as a proposed rule, and it triggers a 60-day comment period, and we look forward to active feedback to get it right. I will say the thing that is most clear to me as I visited multiple Head Starts, and I'm visiting another one today, is the thing that always comes across is the quality of the staff, the program directors, the navigators, the teachers, the teacher's aides, the nutrition specialist. These are some of the most high caliber individuals I have ever come across.
7:40Their heart is in it for the right reason. They're mission driven. They're purpose driven. And I'm confident in their ability to make programmatic decisions. What the rule does is instead of setting 1600 facilities under a one size fits all regime that's dictated by this building here in Washington, we're saying, I trust these individuals. I trust these program directors. They know their kids better than anyone in my building ever will. And they have these governance structures that are statutorily required that have parents involved actively in those decisions. Parents have more vested interest and stake in their children's future than anyone.
8:18Well, I just want to, we have limited time here, so I just want to point to something a lot of researchers are addressing in this proposal. And this is not a ticky-tacky requirement or regulation. This is about the student-to-teacher ratio. And researchers are saying that the very federal standards you're eliminating, high teacher qualifications, low student-teacher ratios are what produces good outcomes for Head Start. And they also point to concerns about child safety. So, for example, an estimated 80 % of children could see higher student-to-teacher ratios under these regulations. That's according to analysis by the Children's Equity Project.
9:00There are also significant changes to health and safety regulations under the proposal. So how are you responding to concerns that it's not just the ticky-tacky regulations, there are also fundamental parts of Head Start that would change and potentially be detrimental to children? What we're doing is we're taking the foot off of these providers from the federal government. So rather than having one-size-fits-all mandates that apply, whether you're in Boise, Idaho, or in New Hampshire, or in Tampa, Florida, we are providing local decision-making to those local program folks. Like I just said, I've visited them.
9:38I've gotten to know them. I see where their heart is. I trust them. It's unfortunate that people don't trust Head Start directors. It's unfortunate that there's a whole cadre of people out there who see them as bad actors who are going to make bad decisions for these children. That is not right. Assistant Secretary, part of the appeal of Head Start was that no matter where you were in the country, no matter what state, a child who was living in Mississippi in a low-income family would have the same experience of Head Start as a child living in Michigan. And so if we're leaving it up to states and there aren't these overarching regulations that ensure that a child in a different state isn't having a worse outcome than a child in a state one door over, how does removing those regulations prevent that from happening in the overall degradation of the program?
10:27Well, you're starting from the premise that these are bad actors who are going to make bad decisions. I don't agree with that premise. Well, not the educators. Not the educators. but states make budgetary decisions. And if those budgetary decisions also drive these regulations, then it's not that they're bad actors. It may just be that they have to make cuts, and Head Start is one of those cuts. This is a federal to local program. We are returning these decisions to the local programs. The local programs, not states, will make decisions about what the ratio is. The only caveat is they have to live within their state law, which means they can be no more lax than their state law.
11:0574 % of these are already state licensed and ergo live within their state law. We are turning the decisions to those local programs. If a local program likes its ratio, it can keep its ratio. If a local program likes its education, it can keep its education. If a local program likes its bureaucracy, it can keep its bureaucracy. We have about 30. Flexibility matters. I understand your point. I just want to note that several state head start associations say they think these caps will hit small independent operators hardest. They don't have the same economies of scale. How do you address that? What we're trying to do here is we're bringing the administrative expenses down in line with what other federal programs are.
11:45For example, the child care block grant is 5%. What we're trying to do is ensure more resources get to the end of the row and serve children and families like the program was intended. We're going to reverse the slide from both the Biden and the Obama administrations that eliminated opportunities for youth all across the country. We're going to cover more slots. We're going to cover more children, and we're going to provide more resources for children and families. Well, we are in the 60-day comment period for these proposed changes. That's open until October 6th. We'll share the website on our website, the1a.org.
12:17That's Assistant Secretary at the Administration for Children and Families, Alex Adams, ACF Overseas, Head Start at the federal level. Assistant Secretary, thanks for your time. Thank you. Coming up, Head Start has survived budget fights before, but program directors say this proposal feels different. We get to more after the break.
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13:36Stay caught up on the latest news with Trump's Terms, the podcast where we curate NPR's coverage of President Trump in short episodes focused on a single story. Follow Trump's Terms on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get back to the conversation with this message from you about your experiences with Head Start. It was formational for me. As a child going through Head Start with a single mom who was raising three kids, that was invaluable, not only for her, but also me. I felt like it was a great foundational start. I felt more confident going into school, having had pre-K enrichment programs like Head Start.
14:20It's really sad to see that this might be on the chopping block. Thanks for sharing that. We also heard from Brenda, who writes, I attended Head Start in Monroeville, Alabama from 1968 to 1969. My Head Start teacher is still living, and her name is Mrs. Malone, and I love her dearly. I grew up in a poor, segregated neighborhood in Monroe County, Alabama. I learned how to read and write in Head Start. I was also fed while in Head Start. Please don't cut Head Start. I wouldn't have the success that I have today without my foundation, Head Start. Mariah Ballingat joins us now. She covers early childhood for the Associated Press.
14:57Mariah, thanks for joining us. You were listening in to the conversation with the assistant secretary. What were your takeaways from what you heard there? Yeah, he definitely has a very different take on what's going on than many of the advocates I've spoken to. One thing he said, for example, was that the Biden administration cut slots. That's not exactly what happened. What did happen is that it got a lot more expensive to operate Head Starts. and the federal funding has not kept up. And so a lot of operators went to the federal government and said, we simply cannot actually serve this many kids any longer can we cut back the number.
15:35So that is one way that enrollment has gone down. You've also seen a massive expansion of pre-K programs that states have been running. So some children have been going there. And we are also seeing falling birth rates. So there's a number of reasons why enrollment has dropped. There was never a deliberate effort on the part of the Biden administration to cut slots. One of the things that they did do that the Trump administration has since reversed is that they mandated a pay hike for teachers. And that's because there were so many teachers leaving the early childhood workforce during the pandemic when wages for things like service jobs went up.
16:13So you were losing teachers with bachelor's degrees to Target, to Starbucks, to retailers. And so they saw a need to raise the pay in order to at least reach some parity with some elementary schools. That is still a major issue. And some Head Starts I've spoken to have had to cut slots because they really can't find instructors in the classroom. Well, the assistant secretary also said these proposed changes will allow for more flexibility at the local level. What are you hearing for those who work for Head Start? So I have not heard from an operator that is seeking more flexibility. There may be some out there.
16:57I'm sure there's some that really do feel that a lot of the paperwork is really burdensome. Certainly parents seem to be opposed to this. Advocates for Head Start seem to be opposed to this because the kind of flexibility, on one hand, it is flexibility. And he's right that programs do have the option to continue to operate as they are. But they're feeling tremendous financial pressure. And that, combined with the loosening of regulations, seems to be pushing them in a particular direction. Head Start was level-funded this year. And in this economy, a level funding is a cut. Anyone who didn't get a raise this year already knows that.
17:38Yeah, yeah. We heard from Tanya in Woodstock, Georgia. I went from being a five-year-old Head Start student to graduating from Georgia Tech and spending most of my adult life creating opportunities for children and advocating for their well-being. That journey is why I believe we should talk about Head Start not only in terms of budgets and programs, but in terms of real people and real outcomes. Behind every Head Start classroom is a child who has potential, a family trying to create a better future, and a community deciding whether it is willing to invest in that future. When we assess outcomes for students, what are researchers measuring when it comes to Head Start?
18:14Is it academic outcomes, social-emotional development, something else? It's a lot of things. I mean, Head Start was started as an anti-poverty initiative. In many ways, it was way ahead of its time. It recognized that things like vision, hearing, dental care, medical care, those things were all really important to a child's well-being and to a child's ability to learn. But the research has been admittedly very mixed. It's certainly not a slam dunk. I kind of look at the research in two tranches. There's the research that looks at short-term outcomes. So certainly when the kids are in Head Start, they are outperforming their peers in other kinds of early education programs.
18:54But those gains seem to fade in first by the time they reach first and second grade. There are some subgroups, though, for whom the gains persist. But there's also research that looks at even the very early cohorts of Head Start, the people who were four and five years old in 1965. And they do see that they have increased earnings. They were more likely to graduate high school, less likely to have contact with law enforcement. They had better health. There were a number of long-term outcomes that we're seeing. It's a very difficult program to study. The gold standard is the randomized controlled trial.
19:31They published a study in 2010 and then again in 2012. But even there, it was very messy. The control group, some of those kids actually ended up in Head Start anyway. It's a very popular program. And some of the Head Start kids ended up dropping out. So it's just a very difficult thing to study. But certainly it's not a slam dunk. We got this message from Jennifer in Indiana. I have had four of my children through the early Head Start program and then became a part-time staff. and I'm now a full-time staff and a member of management. I'm a home visitor coordinator. So what Head Start has meant to me is that they have supported me through all of life's obstacles.
20:13They have been my biggest cheerleader. The return on investment with our kiddos is astronomical compared to any other business in our state. And these changes that are being proposed are only going to affect the quality of services provided. and I think government needs to really consider what and who they are affecting because it's the families who are most vulnerable in our state that are being affected. Jennifer, thanks for that message. I want to focus on the families part of Head Start because we talk about children and the experience they may have in a Head Start program, but what kinds of additional services are provided for families to participate?
20:56Yeah, I think one thing that a lot of people don't understand about Head Start is that families and parents are not considered secondary. They are like primary beneficiaries of the program. So they have something called, they kind of coach parents. When they meet parents, they do a needs assessment, make sure that they have connections to health care, to dental providers, and things like that. And then they ask them, like, what is your goal? Do you have a goal? Let's like create a goal for you. It could be a financial goal. I talked to one Head Start coordinator who told me a family just wanted to go on a vacation.
21:26They'd never been on vacation. I talked to one mother in Alaska. Her goal was to finish building a home, like herself, with her own hands. And then they coached them through that goal. I've heard so many stories, like the one the caller just talked about, where people have actually gone to work for Head Start. And I think that's part of the reason it's so popular in many communities, Republican, Democratic, is that it's also a workforce development program. And they have encouraged many parents, many women even, to go back to school. I've even talked to high school dropouts who ended up getting their associate's degree and are now master teachers in Head Start.
22:07So as we said, these are proposed rules at this point. If they go through, what could it mean for the experience children have in different states? Because if the expectation is that with the current set of federal regulations, again, a child in Mississippi and a child in Michigan are going to have a Head Start experience. Could that change? Definitely. I mean, I think one of the first places, if any place we would see changes, is that Head Starts currently have pretty low staff-to-child ratios. And now states would be the defining—state regulations would be kind of the ceiling and the floor for that.
22:48So, for example, in Mississippi, a Head Start teacher would only watch something like two or four two-year-olds. That number would go up to 12. I don't think programs are necessarily going to take full advantage of that. But that is one of the ways that the regulations that the administration has proposed that they would get more seats is by putting more children into classrooms. So that is one place that people could immediately see changes if operators decide that they need to start putting more kids into classrooms. We got this question from John in Bethesda, who says, The assistant secretary said the federal government will increase the number of children serviced by Head Start.
23:31He neglected to comment on if the federal government will overall increase funding, which states can use as they see fit. His administration has a history of cutting funding. Any knowledge of how the government will fund the changes? Has the Trump administration said anything about increased funding for Head Start? I posed this question directly to the assistant secretary. He just said, well, we did level fund it this year, but certainly there is a lot of nervousness around this. Head Start advocates have really been on their heels since the start of the second Trump administration. Trump's budget chief, Russ Vogt, actually called for the elimination of Head Start before he started the position.
24:07There was an early budget draft last year that circulated that zeroed out Head Start. So certainly people are really nervous that this is just another step in undermining the program and eventually dismantling and eliminating it. There's also been tremendous layoffs. And they also, at one point, this was halted by a lawsuit, started limiting what kinds of words they could put in grant applications. So they weren't supposed to use the word woman or black or Hispanic, things like that. that have really kind of made things uneasy and uncertain for Head Start operators. And just put this in the broader context of what we've seen from the Trump administration, how it's changing education and social safety net programs.
Read the full transcript
24:52Yeah, I mean, certainly it, in some ways, it is also making it harder for homeless children and for children or for parents who don't work at all to actually get their children. So they're cutting access in certain ways, but they're also using their new regulations or this proposal to actually add regulations in about educating parents on the importance of marriage, educating parents on, you know, adding nutrition education, also requiring all instruction in English. So they actually are adding some regulations along those lines. The rule change does not go into effect immediately. As we said, we're within the 60-day comment period that ends October 6th.
25:36We could see legal challenges to this proposal. But what's next in the process? What are you watching for? I'm really interested to see what kind of comments come in. And there's no legal action. Nobody can sue over this until it actually goes into effect. So I'm preparing to see litigation over this to potentially halt it. the Head Start Act actually requires the administration to write regulations. It's sort of unusual in that way in that it says we aren't specifying everything that Head Start operators need to do. So administration, please write regulations. So it's not, some people have said it's not legal for them to got the regulations because the Head Start Act actually says you need to have regulations.
26:20So that is one piece that is going to be interesting. Well, again, we'll share that public comment website at thewene.org. That's journalist Mariah Ballingat. She covers early childhood for the Associated Press. Mariah, thanks. Thank you for having me. And let's turn now to another anti-poverty program undergoing major changes, the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP. More than 4 million people have lost SNAP benefits since new work requirements kicked in last year. The Trump administration says that's because the economy is strong and people don't need them anymore. Critics say people are being cut off who still do need them.
26:56So here to talk about what we actually know is journalist Leah Douglas. They cover SNAP for Reuters. Leah, welcome to the program. Thanks so much for having me. Now, President Trump's massive tax and spending law on last year put a lot of new SNAP requirements and spending on the state. It changed work requirements, among other things. What were some of the biggest changes? So the biggest changes from the tax and spending bill have to do with shifting significant new spending on SNAP to the states. So historically, states have paid 50 percent of the cost to administer SNAP and zero percent of the cost of the benefits themselves.
27:30The law now makes states responsible for 75 percent of the administrative costs starting this October. And starting next October, states could be responsible for up to 15 percent of benefit costs if they are beyond certain thresholds of efficacy in administering the program. Now, the administration says people don't need these benefits anymore, that a decline and people on the books bodes well for the country. Here's Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins speaking back in spring. We now have moved 4.3 million Americans off of the food stamp program. A lot of that is fraud. A lot of it is people taking the program that shouldn't have been.
28:09And then a lot of it is just a better economy. And here's President Trump talking just last week in Las Vegas. Here in Nevada, we've created over 40 ,000 new jobs and lifted nearly 100 ,000 Nevadans off of food stamps. They don't want to be on food stamps because they've got new jobs. Will you just do a quick fact check on those snippets for us? That 4.3 million Americans off of food stamps and a lot of that is fraud. Let's start there. So as of the latest USDA data, it's actually 5.3, more than 5.3 million people who have lost SNAP benefits since last year. That's of April 2026 because the data is a couple months behind.
28:50And that is the administration often uses the line that it has to do with fraud. Historically, fraud and SNAP is about 1 % of the program. That's always been sort of a shorthand I've heard from advocates. The USDA actually did a study with about half of states that submitted data to the agency about fraud and SNAP. And they came to the conclusion that fraud was about 1 % of the program. So fraud is not enough to accommodate a more than 12 percent decline in benefit enrollment. And then this connection between people moving off of food stamps and people just getting jobs or making more money in this economy.
29:27Any truth to that? I mean, certainly people are always moving off of SNAP because their economic conditions change. But the unemployment rate has hovered around 4 percent for months. And according to nonpartisan groups like the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities that are looking closely at this question, those advocates say it's unlikely that the driver is rising employment. And what other data do we have so far about the impact of these SNAP changes, including who and where has been hit hardest? Well, a few states have been really outliers. We at Reuters did an immersive story on Arizona, which has seen more than 50 percent decline in SNAP enrollment.
30:05But other states, Florida, Georgia, are over 20 percent as well in the last, just since July. And a lot of the reasons that's happening is that states are rushing to improve the accuracy of their SNAP administration to avoid some of those new costs. And in the process, people are losing access to the program. Let's take another quick break here. But just ahead, we hear from the head of a program in Oklahoma, one of the states seeing a steep decline in enrollment. Stay with us.
30:37A lot of us are short on time, but is our time really going where we want it to? They say when your schedule begins to align with your values is when we begin to feel that inner peace. How to take a time audit and other timely advice on the LifeKit podcast. Listen to LifeKit on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
31:01Let's add another voice to the conversation. Chris Bernard is president and CEO of Hunger Free Oklahoma. Chris, welcome. Hi, thank you for having me. So just briefly, tell us what your organization does and how you work with SNAP. Sure, so we are a statewide organization focused on ending hunger, obviously, but primarily through the federal nutrition programs, which make up around 90 % of the food safety net overall. We do that through advocacy, but also through program assistance and technical assistance. So we run a SNAP outreach program with 400 partners and a hotline that helps people get on to SNAP.
31:40We run the summer EBT program with five tribes because our state does not run that program. And we do a lot of kind of support and work with partners to help them help the people they're serving access the programs they need. Now, Oklahoma saw a 14 % drop in SNAP participation between February 2025 and February 2026. That's according to June figures from the USDA. Just help us understand how significant that drop is for your state. I mean, it's huge. We've actually been tracking the drop since January 2025. So we see 147 ,000 less people. That is a massive amount of dollars in terms of food assistance for folks putting food on the table.
32:25to our grocers, to our local economies. And it's a huge burden on our charitable sector. That number is made up with 42 % are kids, which is not a category that was explicitly targeted in HR1. Another 10 % is seniors between 55 and 64. And those are numbers that we can't make up in any other way, right? Like SNAP is the lifeline for those families. Leah, I want to turn back to you here briefly. Last year, the Trump administration canceled a government food security survey, and it measured food across the U.S. and informed decision-making in Washington. Given that, how reliable is the data we have right now?
33:10Do we have an accurate picture of the full impact of these changes nationally, including on children? Yeah, so I spoke to several academics who relied heavily on the hunger survey that the Trump administration canceled last September, and one of the people who had worked at USDA for many years on that survey. And essentially what they told me was that there is no equivalent alternative. There are some private institutions, some universities that do measure hunger with different surveys and different approaches, but the study canceled by the USDA that was run by the Census Bureau was really the gold standard.
33:45So, Chris, when you think about your work since the passage of the new cuts and rules by the Trump administration. What's changed in the last year? I mean, for us, what we see is a level of frustration and, I mean, almost hopelessness amongst like the individuals we try and serve. So our wait times on our phone line, the state phone line that people's cases are processed through has increased almost nine times to three hours and 41 minutes. We have lines that are forming two hours before DHS offices open for folks trying to access SNAP. And we see a lot of people just feeling frustrated. They're getting notification letters about being rejected or something they need to provide in order to get their case after the due date of those documents or after their ability to challenge.
34:36Overall, we're seeing an environment where H.R. 1 made states choose, you know, either keep making sure people have access and risk these massive cost shares. So for Oklahoma, our 15 % would be about$270 million annually the state would have to come up with or start to create restrictions that make sure you're accurate but, frankly, err on the side of accuracy, right? So states do not get punished with a cost share if they reject people who do qualify for SNAP. That is not calculated in your error rate. But if you let a family on who maybe doesn't quite qualify or you pay that family an extra$100 a month because of some miscalculation, you do get punished.
35:25And so the natural response of any state and what we're seeing nationwide is they're going to err on the side of caution. They're going to continue to make hurdles and new restrictions and new approaches that make it harder for people to access because that's how they avoid those cost shares. And the cost is human, and it's massive. We heard those clips from President Trump and Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins just a bit ago. And there seems to be this disconnect between what the Trump administration is saying about why people are moving off SNAP benefits and what you're experiencing on the ground in Oklahoma.
36:05What do you make of that disconnect? act? I mean, I think that's the challenge of the times generally. A lot of talking points used to talk about these programs that frankly are inaccurate or not based in data. And, you know, people hear these sound bites and they just take it as true. And so I think a challenge are partners who serve folks directly and we see generally is how do we get the word out that this is not the reality and this is not the experience, right? Leah talked about the changes and how that's not about fraud and it's not about earnings and unemployment staying about the same.
36:47And the lowest paid workers, their wages are not gaining at the rate a lot of other people's are either. And those are your people on SNAP, right? So it's a challenge we deal with every day. Our political environment, our governor has said some things about SNAP, as have other elected officials that are also not accurate. And we just do our best to correct the record and to support our partners and to advocate both in our state and in D.C. to delay the cost shares, change policies, and increase access. You cited some of the data from Oklahoma, but when you think about the people and the families you work with, Is there a story that really stays with you as you navigate this moment?
37:34I tend not to pick out individual stories, but think about broader what we're hearing from individuals. And we have a researcher here in Oklahoma who talks about hope as a measurement, right? And one of the best ways to get people out of poverty is build programs that give hope. what we hear from people trying to access this program is a loss of hope they feel defeated they feel targeted they feel abandoned the SNAP shutdown didn't help with that during the government shutdown there's a lack of trust but right now they feel like nobody cares what they're going through and that the one resource they knew they could rely on to feed their families is being taken away and that can be extremely challenging if we want people to do what we all want people to do, which is help them to lift themselves out of poverty, right?
38:28Like regardless of what party you're in, I think everyone can agree on that and this is detrimental to that cause. Leah, we've talked a lot on this show about how affordability is a major issue for voters heading into the midterms. To what extent is food insecurity specifically and SNAP changes getting voters' attention right now? It's a great question, and one I've started to pose to folks around the country. I think, you know, there are some Republican candidates for office in the midterms, especially in, you know, toss-up districts, where their votes on H.R. 1, on the tax and spending bill to cut not only SNAP but also Medicaid, is becoming a vulnerability for them because constituents are starting to see the impacts now.
39:14You know, as Chris was saying, this is a very real and live issue for so many people. So I think as we get closer to November, we will see more conversation about that. Chris, before we let you go, I just want to briefly hear from you on members of your community who are facing compounding issues. Liam mentioned the cuts to Medicaid. So if people are experiencing cuts there, maybe they're also experiencing cuts to their SNAP benefits. Are you seeing individuals or families in situations where they're losing more than they're able to make up financially? I mean, absolutely, right? Like, it's a challenge for any family living in poverty.
39:54We talk about a time tax of accessing all these different benefit streams. If we attack them all at once, like, this is, each one doesn't exist in a vacuum. And even with one, right, we saw during the SNAP shutdown in Oklahoma, evictions actually increased as people lost access to SNAP benefits. So this impacts housing. It impacts people's health. It impacts education. And that all compounds into just worsening outcomes. Our state is already worse than the nation at a lot of things, right, education, child food security, according to Feeding America most recently. All of these things are challenges for our state.
40:31And when we start to pull these benefits away, it just makes it that much harder to improve anything. And if I could just add one more thing, like one of the challenges I see is these HR1 was, it had to be balanced, right, for the tax cuts. And one of the ways when they did that analysis, the bill counts on multiple states stopping running SNAP, right? Like the bill is not balanced if every state actually pulls this off and gets the error rates under the cost share requirement. And a bill that contemplates that and even needs it to be balanced should disturb us all, right? And if one of our states actually stops running SNAP, you are going to see a humanitarian disaster in that state.
41:15And that, I think, is a larger view of how individuals are feeling right now as these things are taken away from them. Well, Chris Bernard with Hunger Free Oklahoma, thanks for speaking with us. Thank you. We also heard from John Potts, who writes, I am in Oklahoma and helped several Afghan families. Oklahoma's revisions are draconian. Afghan families have gone from about$1 ,300 per month to about$400. Leah, as you listen to Chris there describe Oklahoma's situation, how much does it mirror what you're seeing in other states across the country? Oh, completely. I've spoken to advocates and, you know, folks working in anti-hunger all over the country, and I'm hearing very similar things.
41:56I mean, the point about the compounding nature of these cuts is absolutely the case. You know, I've often spoken to SNAP recipients or now former SNAP recipients who are having to choose between, am I paying my energy bill? Am I paying for health care? Am I paying for my, you know, child's like education? And all those things are in tension with one another. Chris also makes a really important point about how existential the threat could be to having SNAP in some states at all. The cost, the new cost shares for some states, you know, Chris said in Oklahoma, it's in the hundreds of millions. You know, states have to balance their budgets and new money is not coming, you know, off of trees.
42:35And so, you know, this has really been the time of year. This year and next year in the budgeting seasons where states are really grappling with, you know, how do we make that work? And if we can't, do we need to significantly pare back the SNAP program in general or stop offering it at all? So I've certainly heard that. And you're reporting, are you hearing from states that are actually contemplating cutting this program? I think states are trying to do everything they can to avoid that. So it's not clear. It wasn't clear in this budget cycle that any state had that really on the table. I think we'll see next year when really push comes to shove around paying, you know, because the paying for new benefit costs will take effect next October.
43:20So in the next budget cycle, I think is when it really will, the rubber will hit the road on that. When you take a look back through history, how would you compare this administration's take on the social safety net and anti-poverty programs like SNAP, like Head Start, versus what we've seen in decades past? This is the most significant cut to the SNAP program in at least 30 years, if not more. I mean, really in current memory. This program more or less has been stable and serving a more or less similar population for many decades. And that is part of the reason why it has been so – it's created so much upheaval for families, for advocates, for states, because there really was no other plan for how to administer food aid.
44:09This has been the safety net program that feeds low-income people, period. So it's really a historic change that we're seeing. And low-income people who, in many cases, are working. We got this from Stephen who writes, the idea that people just need to work to get off benefits ignores the reality that workers are paid too little to get by while employers live lavishly on more money than they know how to spend. What we really need are policies that prevent the imbalance rather than programs that only put a Band-Aid on a gaping wound. In your reporting, what are you hearing about not just the cuts to SNAP, but the fact that these are working poor people, People who are maybe putting in a 9 to 5 plus and still not being able to gather enough money to pay for what they need.
44:58Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's the other aspect when, you know, the administration or the president says that people are working. There are many people working on SNAP. And that work may not help them reach an income level where they can support their family. And one of the other changes that HR1 made that's related to this is that it removed, you know, you have to work to receive SNAP by and large. And the law changed some exemptions that allowed places with very high unemployment to be exempted from that. So essentially the law used to say, if you live in a place where there's not a lot of jobs, we're going to understand that and make an exception to your work requirement.
45:36That's no longer the case. So folks may also be looking for work in a place where there just are not jobs to be had. And that further compounds the issue. So very briefly, what are you watching for next? I'm continuing to talk to people like Chris and monitor this impact and, you know, see how it's affecting food banks, retailers, the whole of the economy in some of these states, and how state budgets are going to try to handle these increased costs. That's Leah Douglas. They cover SNAP for Reuters. Leah, thank you. Thank you. Well, remember, if you want to connect with the program, text is the fastest way.
46:08You can find out how to sign up to our text service under the Talk to 1A tab at the1a.org. Today's producers were Claire Muffson and Alexandra Botee. This program comes to you from WAMU, part of American University in Washington, distributed by NPR. I'm Jen White. Naila Boudou is with you tomorrow for the Friday News Roundup. Hope you tune in. Thanks for listening, and we'll talk more soon. This is 1A.
46:51Tanya, I think you did the best interview that I've done. Seriously. Oh, that's a great question. I think I'm going to think about that question for the rest of my life. Oh, good question. This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air, and the questions are only the half of it. Listen to Fresh Air on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. The midterms are coming, and that means the news cycle, which is already intense, is about to get more intense this fall. So this summer is a perfect time to make sure your news diet is calibrated. I'm Leila Fawdel on Up First. We unpack the three biggest stories every morning so you can stay informed and get on with your day in less than 15 minutes.
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From the publisher
Some 60 years later, it serves more than 750,000 children — and their families — every year.
But the Trump administration thinks the program is too costly and inefficient. Last week, it proposed the most significant changes to Head Start in decades. The proposed rules would eliminate many of the federal standards for how programs are run and hand those decisions to the states. They would also cap how much programs can spend on administrative costs.
Officials say the changes would save money and open up new slots for hundreds of thousands of kids. Critics say stripping these standards is the first step towards dismantling the program entirely.
What does the evidence say about whether Head Start works? And what happens if those federal standards go away?
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