Special Call-in: What Does The U.S. At 250 Mean To You?

0:00This message comes from Rosetta Stone. Rosetta Stone Sapphire personalizes your language learning. Get unlimited access to all 25 Rosetta Stone languages and Sapphire learning tools. Visit rosettastone.com slash NPR and receive 20 % off. Hi, it's Jen. Just a quick heads up before we start the show. We opened our phones live for a special call-in show today. Our phones are now closed, but we'd still love to hear from you. You can always email us at 1a at wamu.org or leave a voicemail at 855-236-1212. And as always, stay up to date with all the latest news by listening to your local NPR member station and by visiting npr.org.

0:49We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 250 years ago this week, the Founding Fathers adopted the Declaration of Independence, the document that declares those famous words. This July 4th, two and a half centuries later, has the United States lived up to those lofty ideals? Is this anniversary a time for celebration or for reckoning or something else entirely? Whichever way you see it, it's definitely a moment of reflection. I'm Jen White.

1:28And I'm Todd Zwilling. You're listening to the 1A Podcast. We'll be back with more after this short break. Stay with us.

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2:20That's why he chooses Grainger. Because when a drive belt gets damaged, Grainger makes it easy to find the exact specs for the replacement product he needs. and next day delivery helps ensure he'll have everything in place and running like clockwork. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. Welcome back to the 1A Podcast. Let's get to our conversation about America's 250th and what that means to you. Joining us from New York City, Eddie S. Glaude Jr. He's a professor at Princeton University and author of the new book, America, USA, How Race Shadows the Nation's Anniversaries.

3:01Hi, Eddie. Hi, how are you? Great to have you. And joining Todd and me in studio in Washington, Mona Charon. She's a syndicated columnist and host of the podcast, The Mona Charon Show, from The Bulwark. Mona, welcome. Thank you. So to start, I would just love to hear from each of you what one or two words you would use to describe the feeling you have about America's 250th. Mona? Worried. Um, there's, uh, there's reason to, uh, celebrate, of course, but look, I would be lying if I didn't acknowledge that this is a particularly fraught year in our history, particularly difficult time to feel full-throated patriotism because of the situation in, uh, our government, because of what our nation's capital, where we're all sitting, looks like right now, uh, with, uh, a gladiatorial contest.

3:55and a reflecting pool that is full of algae and big, huge signs of Donald Trump hanging from the Justice Department. It's all very dispiriting. And those are the minor things. The bigger things are the nature of the challenge of authoritarianism. And so, though, we do have things to keep in mind about the enduring strength of this country. And the most important thing is that we were built on an idea. And recently, the Supreme Court just reaffirmed part of that idea. That is birthright citizenship. We are all equal. And that is a very powerful concept, something to think about as we mark this anniversary.

4:44Eddie, what about for you, one or two words you would use to describe how you're feeling? Enraged. Here we are in the 250th year of the country, and the Voting Rights Act has been gutted. Voting districts are being redrawn. Districts are being redrawn in the South, throughout the South. You see the Supreme Court decision around TPS, Delaney, Hall in terms of immigration policies, ICE. and even with the birthright citizenship decision, it was a narrow decision. And we've heard since then the political machinations of J.D. Vance and others and even the CEO of the Federalist Society suggest something more noxious.

5:31So I'm enraged that white nationalists have seized control over the government. Well, let's go to the phones. We have Walter calling from Philadelphia. Walter, what are you thinking about on this 250th birthday of the country? It makes me sad. But I never lose hope because I pray to a mighty Elohim. And for those who don't know, that's a term for a creator. It just makes me very, very sad. And everything that young man just said, I concur with, with the voting rights, the gutting of such. And Bernie Sanders said something the other day that I concur with. He said he was, I believe it was, he's embarrassed about the way the nation is, and I share that embarrassment.

6:23I'm embarrassed that 77 million people thought that this was the alternative to hire this young man. And it's not like he lied about what he was going to do. It's not like he pretended he was something else. He shared and showed us what he was. And someone smarter than me said, if somebody tells you who they are, you should believe them. But 77 million Americans decided he was an alternative to what was else on the table. Well, Walter, thank you. Thank you for that call. A lot of ambivalence in the room. There's rage. Walter is feeling sad. I think it's fair to say, Mona, that you're highly ambivalent right now.

7:08What is patriotism now, do you think? How are you feeling about patriotism? On the one hand, all of the ambivalence in the room, and we don't need to recount it. On the other hand, just this week, a Supreme Court, like you said, that upheld a core constitutional principle that applies to everyone. A World Cup tournament where despite how Americans are feeling about themselves, it appears that a lot of people from around the world are feeling great about American culture. At least, you know, my algorithm says so that they feel really amazing about Americans and what they have to offer. There's different things going on.

7:47Yeah. Wasn't that great hearing all of those people saying we love America? And many came saying that they were wary at first and didn't know what to expect and then were greeted so warmly. So, yes, that was encouraging. Look, you asked what is patriotism, and I don't know what it is for everybody. But for me, it is bearing in mind that though this is a difficult moment, there is so much in our history that fills me with inspiration. There is, for example, the founding principles, which were absolutely new in the world when our founding happened. It was a world of princes and emperors and dictators, and we introduced democracy to the world, and that is a huge gift.

8:36And yes, we have imperfectly implemented it in our own country, but we have made tremendous strides. And the progress that we have seen in other very fraught times is a source of encouragement. Let's not forget that even though we have a lot of corruption to deal with right now, there was a reaction against corruption that we experienced in the late 19th century, the Gilded Age, which led to a huge reform movement called the Progressive Era. And we don't know what might be coming around the corner. Right now, we're in the midst of the corruption. There could be a huge reform movement coming there too.

9:21We heard from Janine, who emailed, while I'm not presently feeling especially proud to be an American, I'm still hopeful that I'll regain that national pride in the future. So I plan to celebrate the holiday with my family and take it as an opportunity to talk about our history and trajectory as a nation with my kids. Eddie, your new book, America USA, argues that big national milestones like the 100th in 1876 and the 150th in 1926 have historically been moments of erasure when the country forgets its history of racial exclusion. Just explain more about that argument. Yeah, so part of what I'm trying to argue in the book is that America suffers from a kind of divided soul, a double consciousness.

10:03We imagine ourselves as a beacon of freedom and as a white republic, and that has been present since the founding. So I appreciate Mona's appeal to those principles, to that story, but that's the kind of storybook version of the country that secures our innocence and ensures that we're always already on the road to a more perfect union. What the milestone anniversaries reveal, though, is that every time we have to tell ourselves a story about the founding, we are awash in the contradictions of the country. So 1876, of course, is the collapse of Reconstruction. 1926, that's the decade of the Klan.

10:381976, that's Watergate, Vietnam, the Black Freedom Struggle, the women's movement and the like. The nation really is deeply skeptical about its prospects. And so in each of these moments, when we have to give an account of ourselves, we have to grapple with what actually has us by the throat. And we often do that by appealing to the storybook version of the country, that somehow our founding principles will get us through. And part of what I'm arguing in the book is that we need a much more mature approach to our past so that we might release ourselves into a different future. Let's go back to the phones.

11:13We have Wendy in Florida on the line. Wendy, what's on your mind?

11:20Wendy, are you with us? Okay, I think we might have lost Wendy. Let's go to some of your emails. Ian says, I would say that we all should keep in mind we should not let the perfect get in the way of the good. We should celebrate how far we have come in this country in 250 years and not dwell solely on the sins of our past or the struggles of the present. I plan to celebrate accordingly. But Will has a different take. Will says, I'll be celebrating July 4th at the No Kings rally in D.C. There is no better way to celebrate 250 years of independence than by protesting a mentally unstable tyrant who is mostly concerned with enriching himself and his cronies.

11:56So, Eddie, how do you take that on when you look at the other milestones that you write about in your book? We could spend an hour or two on America at its 250th and what's going on right now. Every milestone is a chance to check in. And we're at a moment where the authoritarianism is on the rise. Right. And I think in so many ways what we have to do is to kind of claim those principles and try to imagine the country differently. So we're in a moment where we have to kind of, shall we say, be as courageous as we can in telling the truth about who we are. We're speaking to Eddie Escalade Jr. He's the author of the new book, America USA, How Race Shadows to the Nation's Anniversaries.

12:41Also with us, Mona Charon, host of the podcast, The Mona Charon Show from The Bulwark. Still to come, more of your calls. Keep them coming. We want to hear from you. 855-236-1212. I'm Todd Zwilling. And I'm Jen White. This is 1A from WAMU and NPR.

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13:40BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2 ,000 Americans and found that 85 % believe getting support is wise, yet 74 % say society discourages people from doing so. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash NPR. This message comes from the podcast Pod Save the World. Hosts Tommy Vitor and Ben Rhodes break down the week's most impactful foreign policy news with digestible expert analysis. Listen to Pod Save the World wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube. Welcome back to the 1A Podcast. Today we're asking what America's 250th means to you.

14:23How are you marking the day, if at all? We're taking your calls at 855-236-1212. 1212. And joining us for the hour, Eddie Glaude Jr., Princeton professor and author of America USA, How Race Shadows the Nation's Anniversaries. Also, Mona Charon, policy editor at The Bulwark. And of course, we want to hear from you. Let's go back to the phones. We have Melissa on the line. Melissa, where are you calling from and what's on your mind? Hi, I'm calling from Greensboro, North Carolina, the founding city of civil rights. and I am not going to be celebrating this year. I was raised in a family with a very deep history, 13 generations in North Carolina, and it was all about protecting each other and being kind and standing up for what's right for everyone.

15:13And with this recent administration, I feel like it has caused this, I'm so disheartened and I'm scared, I'm embarrassed. It has given an open door to people with this ugliness inside to just speak what's on their minds. And it's become a fearful place for people of mixed cultures. My father came here from Turkey in the 1960s, and he's an American citizen. And I just feel like it's been taken away from us. Everyone be kind and everyone try to support the country. Melissa, thanks for that call. Let's go to Kurt. Kurt, where are you calling from and what's on your mind? I'm calling from Fayetteville, West Virginia.

15:57And yeah, it's really hard to be excited about this 250th anniversary. You know, we've really lost the ability for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And it's really being replaced with a complete oligarchy society. And it's just really hard to be psyched about what's going on. It's just horrible. Well, Kurt, thanks for that call. We still want to hear from you. The number is 855-236-1212. Mona and Eddie, I want to hear from each of you whether there's a story from your own family or community that's shaping how you think about this anniversary. Mona? Well, I would say that my family history has always informed my love of country because my family came from Europe.

16:51We were Jewish. And if my grandparents had not been given admission to this country, then I wouldn't be here. All of the people who were left behind were wiped out in the Holocaust. And so I've always had a sense of gratitude about this country. But it isn't just personal. It's that this country has been a haven for oppressed people for a very long time. And that is something that we should be proud of. It's something that is a mark of shame that this administration has pulled back from. But a haven for the oppressed is part of what gives me my feeling of patriotism. Eddie, what about for you, a story from your family or your community that's shaping how you're thinking about this moment?

17:42Well, you know, it's really funny. You know, growing up, the 4th of July was a time where we gathered, we barbecued, we fried fish, because I'm from the water on the coast of Mississippi. And, you know, we just reveled in the joy of each other. It wasn't really wrapped in the flag. It was an occasion for us to just kind of replenish in the love of the people who made us who we are. And I remember fondly those days. And I think it's really important for us to understand that, you know, you asked a question a bit earlier about what is patriotism. Todd, I believe, asked that question. And I think it's really love of people.

18:21It's love close to the ground. and even when people are skeptical of the abstractions, skeptical of the current state of the country, there are folk right in front of us who give the country meaning. And so my fondest memories are those cookouts with good music and watching the old folks dance and just revel in each other. So even though we're in these dark times, we got a day off, let's enjoy. Let's enjoy each other. Let's enjoy each other. It's Eddie Glaude Jr. on the line with us. Vicki is in New York, Pennsylvania, from my part of the world in central PA. Vicki, go ahead. Well, good morning.

19:01Thanks for taking my call. I have a very different opinion. I am very proud to be an American, very proud of this country for all its flaws, for all its troubles. Politics doesn't make us Americans. We have a lot to be proud of. We have a lot of fabulous history, sad history, tragic history, and glorious history. So again, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don't look for perfection. Look for the good. Look for your next-door neighbor who's helping you out when your car breaks down. Look for those small indicators that what we have to offer is still a beacon for the rest of the world, and people are lining up to come into this country.

19:44Vicki, how are you celebrating this year? I am going to be in Philadelphia, where our country was founded. I plan to go to every event. I plan to take advantage of all the free museums that are being offered. I plan to fly my flag proudly, and I will debate with anybody why I'm doing that. I have no disdain for this country at all. That's not to say that I am always in favor of everybody who's been president of our country or been elected to office, that's very different for me than what I think my patriotism or my country has to offer. Vicki, thanks for that call. Well, we have large forces in this country.

20:28We have systems. We have leaders, both of which are very strong. We have a democratic system that withstands a lot of assault and a lot of efforts at reform at the same time. We also have a leader right now, Mona, who I think is fairly described as anti-democratic. Donald Trump doesn't believe in elections. He tries to overturn them. All the rest, we covered it a lot on this show. How do you think those two things are in tension? How well do you think we have a system that can withstand a leader or leaders and systems in tension with each other that sort of govern the trajectory that we're on here?

21:07So that is the great question that we've been grappling with for 10 years. In many ways, the institutions of our country have not performed particularly well in the face of this challenge. We saw, for example, at the beginning of this administration, many universities, law firms, other institutional forces sort of bending the knee, and that was dispiriting. On the other hand, it is the right to vote and the freedom to vote is so deep-dyed in our DNA that it would be exceedingly difficult to truly steal an election in this country. And as long as the people maintain the right to vote and hold that as a kind of holy thing, it will not be possible, for example, for Trump to try to serve a third term.

21:57It won't happen because people are too wedded to the idea that they rule here. And let me just point out one quick other thing from abroad. You notice that in Hungary, even though they made every effort, they had an authoritarian leader who made every effort to corrupt that country down to the floor, they still had the right to vote and they did oust him. Let's go back to the phones. We have Mike on the line from Chelsea, Michigan, Michigan, my home state. Mike, what's on your mind today? Hello. Happy Fourth of July to you. I am wary about today's government in this country. I feel it's ironic that we're celebrating 250 years of democracy with a man in a party who seems to lean towards authoritarianism.

22:56But I am still proud of this country. I agree with many of your callers that have made their comments. And I want to say that 1776 was a revolutionary war. I think 2026 could be another revolution, a voting revolution, where we can vote out the people that are leaning towards this authoritarianism and go back to our traditional democratic practices. Mike, thanks for that call. Eddie, I'm really curious to hear your thoughts about how much of American democracy, as it's been expressed so far, is about the leaders doing the right thing, and I'm using quotes there, the right thing, versus the strength of the system itself or the strength of our own voices as voters and members of this democracy.

23:55Yeah, it's a combination of all three, right? There is a sense in which we need statesmen and women who can in so many ways lead the country, especially in moments of crises. You think about Abraham Lincoln, you think about Franklin Delano Roosevelt, just two moments, the Civil War and, of course, the economic crash of 1929 and the wars, of course, and what that means. And of course, then there are systems, systems that can hold off varied interests that seek to capture government. I mean, Madison is right about those interests and the need for virtuous leadership in order to hold off the interest of big money that may seek to seize control of government.

24:38And then there's the everyday ordinary folk. I think when we think about American democracy and the power of this country, it really resides in we the people. It's just we're not very clear about who those people are. We've been fighting over that since the beginning, right? And that's all we need to do is look at the history of immigration law from the Naturalization Act of 1790 to today. There's been this idea that the country belongs to a certain group and the rest of us should just simply shut up and be grateful. And so I think it's really important for us to understand the kind of intimate relationship between the democracy of the people and for the people and by the people and the ways in which there are varied interests that seek to capture government for their own ends and purposes, right?

25:23And we have to be mindful of those systems and the danger we find ourselves with the recent slaughter decision that has enshrined the unitary executive that threatens Madisonian democracy at its core. We're in a dark moment, and I understand people's faith, but we're in a dark moment, and we need to understand that in this 250th year of the country. Let's take another call. We have Richard on the line from Baltimore, Maryland. Richard, you have a question for Eddie. Go ahead. Yes, I do. The topic basically is about assimilation, black attempts to assimilate to the culture, to the country after Reconstruction, et cetera.

26:02And the question is, do you think we'd be better off had we taken Booker T's route versus the attempt to blend in with American culture, political, civil rights, et cetera? And one more thing, if you recall, I'm sure you've seen it, the Thomas Nast drawing, painting back from 18-whatever with the capitalists, I think it was, and the immigrants from Europe, they both had their foot on the back of the black man who's on the ground. So I just want to get those things out real quick. But the issue I want to question you is about assimilation, black attempt to assimilate into the culture here. Richard, thanks for that call.

26:38Eddie, your response? Yeah, you know, I don't want to concede to the terms of the question. I really appreciate it. And that is the question is assimilation. No, I think, you know, America is an argument. It's more than an idea. It's an argument. and I think we can argue our possession of this place, not to assimilate into any perceived understanding of what the country is, but to be our full selves because who we are, who I am, the tradition that made me who I am is deeply and profoundly American. I don't need to leave that behind to assimilate into anything else. What I need, more importantly, what I think is needed is for the country to understand how complex the very meaning of America is And that includes me because my great-grandmother is buried in the soil of Mississippi.

27:26This place is mine as much as it is those who claim it as their own. Could I just underline that myself? I mean, the idea that African Americans would have to assimilate into American culture, there is no American culture without African Americans who've been here from the start. And it's inconceivable that we could have an America without them. So it's really, I think the question misses that in a sense. We're talking to conservative columnist Mona Charan and Princeton University professor and author Eddie Esklaw, Jr. And we're taking your calls. What do you think the founding fathers would make of America today if they could see what America is going through at 250?