The Fight Over Funding The DHS

0:00NPR News Now is your podcast source for updates every hour on the US military action in Iran. President Trump calls it a war and says the goal is regime change. He also says U.S. casualties are possible. With news changing rapidly, listen to NPR News Now. New episodes at the top of every hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:31The Department of Homeland Security has been plagued by a host of allegations over the last few months. One example, that top ICE officials knew as early as March 2024 that federal agents were using increasing levels of force on civilians. That's long before Alex Preddy and Renee Macklin-Good were shot and killed by federal immigration agents in Minnesota. That's according to internal emails obtained by the left-leaning watchdog nonprofit American Oversight. Protests also erupted on Columbia University's campus last week after ICE agents detained student Ellie Agayevo, who was released that same day.

1:06The school alleges federal agents entered a university-owned building under false pretenses, claiming that they were searching for a missing child. This all comes as DHS remains technically shut down over a funding fight in Congress, with the Democrats demanding changes to ISIS tactics before agreeing to a funding bill. While the shutdown has affected ICE, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, and FEMA, 95 percent of TSA officials continue working at commercial airports without pay. The vast majority of Secret Service and U.S. Coast Guard employees have also continued working. Meanwhile, with the U.S.

1:39waging war on Iran, DHS is facing new pressure to fully reopen given national security concerns. I'm Jen White. You're listening to the What A Podcast. We'll be back with more after this short break. Stay with us.

1:57Greenland has said it is not for sale. Denmark has said it can't even legally sell Greenland. And whether Trump can or will or should try to control or purchase a territory that does not want to be sold is one question. But on Planet Money, we are more interested in how we even got to this moment and how we might gracefully get out of it. Listen to Planet Money on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. With the rise of prediction markets, you can bet on anything from whether to what President Trump will say in his next press conference. I'm not a fan of Trump, though I do spend most of my day listening to him and tracking what he's doing.

2:33On the Sunday story, who's winning big on these apps and who's losing? The Sunday story from the Up First podcast. Listen now on the NPR app. I met this guy on the bar train one time and I had my bass with me and he goes, man, what do you want to do? What's your dream? I'm Jesse Thorn. On Bullseye, Raphael Sadiq. He's nominated for an Oscar. He played bass for Prince. And of course, he co-founded Tony, Tony, Tony. Uncle, I want to be in a band with my brother. That's on the next Bullseye. Find us in the NPR app at MaximumFun.org or wherever you get podcasts. Let's get into the conversation and meet our panel.

3:12Joining us to talk about what's going on at DHS right now is Eric Bazel-Emil. He's a national security reporter for Politico with a focus on the Department of Homeland Security. Eric, welcome back to the program. Thanks for having me. Also with us is Priscilla Alvarez. She's a correspondent covering immigration for CNN. Priscilla, as always, it's great to have you too. Thanks for having me. And we should note that we reached out to the Department of Homeland Security for this conversation, but have not heard back. Eric, DHS is often talked about in the context of immigration, but the department oversees much more than that.

3:43What all does the department do? Yeah, so the Department of Homeland Security has an incredibly wide remit. It has everything from the Secret Service under it to TSA, Transportation Security Administration, to immigration enforcement, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which handles all of our disaster response. There's a biolab in case of pathogens. There's a whole host of things. The Coast Guard reports to the Homeland Security Secretary. We have to understand that DHS was created in the wake of the 9-11 attacks as kind of a kitchen sink for a lot of agencies and as a way for there to be better communication between law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

4:19that were not communicating in the lead up to those attacks. But over the last decade, really, the focus has shifted in national discourse to operations around immigration enforcement at the border, in terms of visa processing, and of course, through ICE, the actual process of removing people who are here without legal authorization. So that's over the last decade. What other shifts in direction or focus have we seen in this first year of the second Trump administration? Certainly it has been at the forefront of public messaging. When we look at the DHS Twitter account or X account or their other social media platforms, they're talking about the importance of immigration enforcement as a way to protect homeland security and its indispensability in making sure that what they say is the quote-unquote homeland is being protected.

5:06So more and more this has become a more overt focus. When in the past we would see more discussion of how they're trying to stop terrorist attacks on the homeland, how they're trying to keep airports safe or keep air travel safe. More of the public messaging focus has been on immigration. And we've also seen the Coast Guard take more muscular postures on drug interdiction, more visible roles with our buildup in the Eastern Caribbean and the Pacific. So there's certainly been a lot of shifts since Trump came back. Priscilla, DHS is technically, as we said, been shut down for just over two weeks after funding for the department lapsed earlier this month.

5:39The department employs more than 260 ,000 people. It has a budget of nearly$350 billion. We mentioned some of the operations that are shuttered or still running, but what else do we need to know about how the shutdown is affecting day-to-day DHS operations? Well, one of the unique aspects of this shutdown is that the Department of Homeland Security also received a historic cash infusion from Congress last year through what the president and his administration has called the Big Beautiful Bill. So Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, other elements of the immigration mission, have been able to proceed because they have that different set of appropriated funds that they can pull from to continue the administration's mass deportation campaign, as the president has called it.

6:28Now, it's also true, however, that there are DHS personnel who are not being paid. They continue to work because they are considered essential, but they are not getting their paychecks because of this shutdown. But the moment right now is unique not only because it is a partial shutdown with it affecting DHS and not other departments as people will have experienced last fall, for example, but it does affect the personnel and whether they have to, over weeks and months, have to think more about where they're going to get their money, how they're going to make their ends meet. But in terms of the mission, and especially as you heard there from Eric, the immigration mission has been able to proceed because of that money that was billions of dollars that were provided to the department last year by Congress in a separate bill.

7:21Democrats are refusing to agree to the GOP's funding bill. They're pushing for mask bans for federal agents. They want judicial warrant requirements to search private property. They want independent investigations of agent misconduct. Eric, where does that fight stand right now? We're still at an impasse on Capitol Hill, even though Republicans and Secretary Kristi Noem are really hammering home a point that now in the wake of the Iran attacks, the Iran military operations that the US and Israel are conducting, there's a heightened threat landscape. There's more chances of terrorist attacks against the United States and DHS more than ever should be funded.

7:56We're still seeing Democrats say, this is also a great moment to fund the department and provide for reforms. And so, you know, this has been a really intractable problem, especially because unlike in the last shutdown, everything else is funded, right? Like we're not also having the other leverage points like the air traffic controllers and then ground stops at national airports or international airports. So there's really, this could go on for a very long period of time, especially as Priscilla noted, there's already the funding for immigration enforcement operations. So the administration can keep going through with its efforts to arrest and detain as many people as possible as part of its immigration crackdown.

8:35Well, earlier this year, we spoke to former FBI Special Agent Kayla Staff. She specialized in criminal cyber and counterterrorism cases. And here she is talking about working under the second Trump administration. So the direction started out as we're going to have a few people that will be our liaisons with ICE or ERO. and then it becomes now we need volunteers to do rotations with ICE and ERO. And these are rotations to go out and detain people? Correct, which obviously takes us away from the work that we're trained to do, what we specialize in. So Priscilla, what we heard there from Kayla's staff is that she was taken off of the work she was doing in criminal cyber and counterterrorism cases and her efforts were redirected to ICE operations, to immigration enforcement, before she left the department.

9:30What kind of shift have we seen within DHS in terms of where it's placing attention and resources and where it's pulling back? Well, I'd argue, too, that it has been an entire administration shift. We saw multiple federal departments who were pulled into immigration work or information sharing with the Department of Homeland Security for the purpose of immigration enforcement in ways that we had not previously seen. But to your question about the Department of Homeland Security, that has been a common theme also within immigration and customs enforcement, for example. Homeland Security Investigations is an arm within that agency.

10:08They are typically working on criminal investigations, fraud, but they were pulled into the day-to-day enforcement operations as well. And there was some consternation about that, just as much as there has been in other offices within the Department of Homeland Security. Now, there is some precedent here in that during the first Trump administration, a similar shift happened where much of the department was solely focused on immigration. It is felt more acutely now, certainly from the people I have been talking to, not only because of the mandate within the department and the immense pressure to deliver on the president's deportations, but also, as you heard earlier from Eric, the public messaging on this front.

10:56So there are certainly people who support it and want it to be this way and are grateful for the department putting so many resources behind this campaign. But there's also immense frustration because there's a lot of important work that happens within the Department of Homeland Security. Not all of it related to immigration, but with the White House wanting to deliver on historic deportations, something that has been immensely difficult for administrations to do because of logistics, because of strained resources, that requires that a lot of people across offices be placed on this mission. I think the main concern that you often hear from current and former officials is what work is falling by the wayside and what vulnerabilities are exposed because of that.

11:49And we don't always have the answers right away. And it's unclear exactly where there may be shortcomings with the administration putting such an intense focus on immigration and pulling people from their typical day-to-day work. Well, Eric, as a national security reporter, what are you hearing about where the U.S. may be most vulnerable in the event of direct retaliation from Iran? There's certainly a question about sleeper cells, whether there may be, like at some point in the last couple of years, did people take advantage of vulnerabilities at the border, places where the border was maybe a little bit more porous than others, or misrepresent themselves with falsified documents to cross the US border in the last decade?

12:38And then are they just waiting for direction? That's the kind of big worry. And the shooting in Austin certainly seemed to, raised some more questions about like you know the shooting in austin this past weekend involved a man who had come from senegal but he had an iranian flag he was also wearing a shirt that said property of allah like when he conducted you know the shooting and so it has raised these questions about whether like iran has been able to infiltrate the united states with some degree of sleeper cells like now to be clear right like it there's there's certainly a lot of uncertainty Right.

13:13And, you know, this is now like what FBI and DHS and other agencies are now looking into. And I just want to be clear around that shooting. There has not been evidence presented so far that he was part of a sleeper cell. Correct. 100 percent. Right. Like this is still very early in that investigation. But what was released has like helped fuel more of those fears in Washington. So and certainly we're going to have to see how that investigation plays out. and we're going to have to see what DHS can do to provide intelligence and work with its counterterrorism partners. But to Priscilla's point, a lot of that work has been diverted.

13:48You have people at Homeland Security Investigations that would be doing some kinds of this work or work that's adjacent around this out on the streets. We're seeing FBI agents that would normally be doing counterterrorism partaking in these immigration enforcement operations. People at DEA, ATF. So there really is a human capital problem across the interagency process. because of the focus on deportations. The Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, or CISA, is one of the arms of DHS. And there's concern about Iran's cyber capabilities. Eric, what is the current state of U.S. cybersecurity through DHS?

14:25So a good amount of CISA's staff is currently furloughed as a result of the government shutdown. And that's already come after there were cuts to the workforce as a result of the Department of Government efficiency push earlier this year. There's a lot of concerns, as my colleagues at Politico have reported, about the damage that was done because of the acting CISA director who had failed polygraph tests, had inputted sensitive information to the chat GPT. It was generally seen as a pretty weak leader of the agency. So there are real concerns that Iran can use some of its cyber prowess at a point when, you know, what CISA does is mainly it connects local and federal partners and, like, provides information.

15:03And it allows for information sharing from the private sector to the U.S. government. It allows for information sharing and resources to be distributed to local and state partners that may not have their own cyber operations. So CISA being out of, you know, significantly hobbled in what it can do right now also raises those concerns. And, you know, we've seen already through the Colonial Pipeline hack a couple years ago, We've seen ransomware attacks that have affected hospitals and other critical infrastructure. There are a lot of vulnerabilities. America's cyber defenses are not where they should be.

15:38And that's pretty much a bipartisan consensus at this point. So we'll have to see whether Iran can take advantage of those vulnerabilities or not and what the U.S. government, despite the shutdown, can do to mobilize resources to prevent lasting damage. Priscilla, I want to turn to DHS leadership. Axios reported over the weekend that Secretary Kristi Noem plans to spend border funds on a nearly$300 million luxury jet fleet. The money is intended for border security and a self-deportation campaign DHS is calling Operation Homecoming. She's also under fire for several incidents, including her handling of the administration's immigration crackdown in Minnesota.

16:15As we said before, during that operation, two U.S. citizens were fatally shot by federal agents. Noam is testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee this morning for an oversight hearing. What are you listening for during that hearing? Well, to your question about the airplanes, she was asked about that by Senator Whitehouse during her testimony. She largely skirted the question the senator was asking multiple times, essentially asking for justification as to why a luxury jet was purchased. Some of the photos have circulated with the bedroom in it. She said that it was used for, quote, command and control flights and that there was 737s that were purchased by the department to replace contracts and also to refurbish for the purpose of deportation.

17:03So there has been an exchange so far over the course of this hearing regarding the planes. And as there will be questions from senators about other actions taken by the secretary, Senator Kennedy, for example, also asked her about the millions of dollars that has been spent on advertising by the department and the justification for that. So the secretary going into this hearing, again, before the Senate Judiciary Committee, has been facing a lot of controversy and questions over her conduct and that of senior officials and some of the actions they've taken in terms of money spent. And even rhetoric used, for example, her calling to Americans who were killed in Minneapolis, domestic terrorists.

17:51And all of that has been unfolding since 9 a.m. this morning before the Senate. And it's been interesting to see both Democrats and Republicans really press her on these issues. That's Priscilla Alvarez. She's a correspondent covering immigration for CNN. Priscilla, thanks for speaking with us. Thank you. Still with us is political reporter Eric Bazal-Emil. Coming up, we hear from a former DHS official who oversaw the training policy and programs for all 260 ,000 of the department's employees under the second Trump administration. That's just ahead.

18:30Let's get back to our conversation. We're talking about what's going on at DHS. We're here with Eric Bazel-Emil. He's a national security reporter for Politico with a focus on the Department of Homeland Security. And now let's add another voice. Joshua Etterheimer is an assistant professor at the Center for Public Safety and Justice at the University of Virginia. From 2024 to 2025, he served as the acting chief learning officer and executive director of the Office of Learning, Education, and Development Strategy at DHS. Joshua, welcome to the program. Great. Thanks to be here. I'm happy to be here, Jen.

19:05Good to hear you. Well, we should note we reached out to DHS for this conversation, but we have not heard back. Now, before we get to training at DHS, I want to get to this question we got from Reed, who says, your panelist pointed out the vast responsibilities falling under the DHS umbrella. With this in mind, what justification did the administration offer to elevate Kristi Noem to head this vital agency? To the best of my knowledge, she is totally unqualified. Does Congress have the authority to remove her? Eric, your thoughts? So Congress does have the authority to remove her right through the standard impeachment process.

19:39And we've seen House Democrats initiate what they've characterized as a process of accountability that could lead to impeachment later in Trump's first term. Of course, you know, Democrats are not in the majority. The House and the Senate are both controlled by Republicans. So it's very unlikely that Republicans would remove Noam from office despite their frustrations with some of her leadership and some of her decisions around FEMA or about the tone and tenor of immigration enforcement. and you know when she was nominated the argument was that she had been the executive of a state that she understood large operations i mean she'd been the governor of south dakota before she was made homeland security secretary um and you know this was you know when republicans were going through this in a lot of ways the argument had been the president should get the cabinet that he wants and with few exceptions they didn't interfere with his presidential nominees and they allowed most of them to go forward the exception of course being former representative Matt Gaetz for attorney general.

20:36But largely, they said the president should get to pick the people he trusts to serve in his cabinet. And that was enough for Republicans. Well, you said, though, that there are frustrations among Republicans with how Noam is leading the department. And so, yes, Congress has an impeachment process, but President Trump could also remove Noam. He's so far said he has no plans to do so. But could that change if she loses enough party support? It's a very open question. The president has made it very clear. We first saw this with the SignalGate scandal around former National Security Advisor, now UN Ambassador Mike Waltz, where it was very much clear that he wasn't going to give an inch to the media.

21:15The media broke the scandal. The media had created this news cycle around Waltz's conduct in a Signal chat where top secret information was shared by accident with a reporter. And he was just moved into a different job. There's a clear instinct in this term not to give what he sees as the media getting them a win. And he's gonna try to keep people as long as possible. Noam could always resign. There was reporting in The Atlantic that she's mulled going back to South Dakota to challenge Senator Mike Rounds in the upcoming Senate primary. So far, we've not seen any moves in that direction. She could always resign after the midterms to spend more time with her family or to prepare for a 2028 run.

21:52So there's certainly a lot of factors there. But, you know, and what we've seen in terms of Republican dissension is only a very limited few right now who've always been kind of antagonists, like Tom Tillis, who the president has sparred with repeatedly, or Senator Rand Paul, who has proven to be, you know, a gadfly about specific issues around constitutional freedoms and about the role of government across administrations. Well, last week, former ICE attorney, training instructor, and whistleblower Ryan Schwenk testified before Congress on the state of DHS. For the last five months, I watched ICE dismantle the training program.

22:29cutting 240 hours of vital classes from a 584-hour program, classes that teach the Constitution, our legal system, firearms training, the use of force, lawful arrests, proper detention, and the limits of officers' authority. Now, Joshua, as we said, you oversaw DHS training program and policies for all of its 260 ,000 employees. What's your reaction to that testimony? Tony? Well, I really would want to see specifics. I know it's easy to attack the messenger. I mean, clearly something has happened and there's been adjustments to training. But just to put it in context a little bit, there's so many different diverse agencies in the Department of Homeland Security.

23:19So it's ICE, it's Border Patrol, it's the Federal Protective Service, Secret Service, Coast Guard. I can go on and on. Each one of those entities has a training director and we're coordinated by the office that I led, the office of the chief learning officer. And there's a council. And it's not easy. It's not to be flippant. You can't just change training. There's many things that have to happen. So when I heard his testimony, the first thing I heard was reduction of hours. And then I heard DHS say there was not a reduction of hours. So it is possible. I mean, it is possible to compress training.

24:00If you're teaching eight hours a day, five days a week, you know, which is 40 hours in a week, and you adjust it to what DHS is saying they've done is 12 hours a day, six days a week, that's 72 hours a week. It is absolutely possible to compress training into a shorter period of time. But that's not your, what's interesting is, Joshua, the number of training hours is not your biggest concern. You argue the problems begin with who is hired for these roles in the first place. Tell us more. Well, that I think is a significant concern. But just to go back to your first question, And one of my questions with the compressed training is the instructors.

24:52How are they being trained and do you have enough? If you've gone from hiring several hundred a year to 12 ,000 in a year, who's training them? So that was just one of the questions I had when I heard that. In terms of hiring for DHS. Right, the same question. So if you're hiring several hundred a year and you go to 12 ,000 in a year, my first question goes to who are they hiring? What are the background checks that are occurring? Are they cursory? I'm going to run you through a computer and then finish your detailed background once you've started. And that's what I'm hearing is happening where they're making sure you're not a convicted felon.

25:40And so you get a job offer and you actually start down at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glencoe, Georgia. And then supposedly when you're down there in training, there's a much more detailed background that's occurring. What that looks like, Jen, is you have investigators that are hired and that will go to people's neighborhoods. They will do a much more detailed electronic forensic background. but they'll be talking to people about your background. That's very hard to do when you're hiring 300 people. It's really hard to do if you're hiring 12 ,000 people. So I think that's a huge concern even before people get to training.

26:24Eric, help us understand what we heard from Schwenk's testimony, but also what we just heard from Joshua in the broader context and concerns about the way DHS is currently operating. It all fits in with the idea that they're really rushing to meet what was an ambitious target of, like from Stephen Miller and the president, that they want to deport a million people a year. And when they came in, they realized they don't have the beds to actually process these people. They don't have the actual number of agents necessary. And they also don't necessarily have the number of planes and other vehicles to actually transport them out of the country.