In short
Episode topic: Tele-ICUs (remote critical care teams using video/audio and data monitoring) and what patients can expect in life-or-death moments, including safety, staffing, informed consent, accountability, and ethical tradeoffs. It opens with Connor Hilton’s death after treatment at a tele-ICU in Connecticut, then discusses how tele-ICUs work, their potential benefits, and risks.
Guest backgrounds
Dr. Nandita Nadig, pulmonary/critical care physician and Northwestern Feinberg associate professor; has researched/worked in tele-ICUs. Paul Melito, RN and Director of Nursing Services for eMedicine at UAB; helped build UAB’s virtual nursing program; serves on American Telemedicine Association acute/critical care group. Julia Kolak, PhD bioethicist/philosopher; Assistant Director of Research at Hastings Center; previously clinical ethicist in ICUs.
Key claims
Tele-ICUs are “expertise extension,” not bedside replacement; models vary (continuous vs intermittent, proactive vs reactive, autonomy vs collaboration). Evidence on safety/benefits is mixed and ethical questions hinge on consent, privacy, transparency, and responsibility. Tele-ICUs may expand access where intensivist coverage is lacking, but adoption is often limited by infrastructure/cost and can raise equity concerns.
Notable examples
Wisconsin Ascension satellite hospitals using remote intensivists via video; Connor Hilton case (family sued; alleged no on-site doctor, delayed escalation, lack of disclosure/consent); audience accounts of impersonal remote assessments and unclear accountability; discussion of AI/algorithm alerts and “black box” accountability.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOConnor's Story and Tele-ICUs
0:32 to 2:05
Discussion of Connor Hilton's case and the tele-ICU system.
“Overnight, he was transferred to critical care where he died.”
Understanding Tele-ICUs
2:21 to 4:25
Guests discuss the definition and operational aspects of tele-ICUs.
“She's a pulmonary and critical care physician and associate professor at Northwestern University's Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago.”
The Role of Tele-Nurses and Doctors
4:25 to 7:11
Exploration of the responsibilities of tele-nurses and tele-doctors.
“Just explain what kind of training that doctor gets.”
Ethical Considerations in Tele-ICUs
7:11 to 10:51
Discussion on the ethical questions surrounding tele-ICUs.
“Nadik, you've worked as a critical care doctor in a tele-ICU setting.”
William Hilton's Experience
10:51 to 11:08
William Hilton shares his perspective on his son's treatment in a tele-ICU.
“But coming up, we hear from the father of Connor Hilton, a 26-year-old who died while being treated in a tele-ICU and was pronounced dead by a remote doctor.”
The Tragic Outcome
11:08 to 14:01
Details of Connor Hilton's case and the family's legal actions.
“William Hilton, a dentist based in Connecticut, was in the room when his son Connor was pronounced dead.”
The Night Conor Entered the ICU
14:01 to 14:40
Learn about the critical moments leading to Connor's ICU admission and the family's concerns.
“Conor had no ability to make any decisions for himself.”
Legal Perspectives on Medical Malpractice
14:41 to 18:04
Explore the legal case against Bridgeport Hospital and issues of informed consent.
“We were never told that he was getting worse.”
Patient Advocacy and Transparency in Care
18:05 to 21:32
Hear about the importance of transparency and communication in medical care.
“But that information was never provided.”
Remembering Connor: A Father's Memories
21:33 to 24:16
Listen to Bill Hilton share memories of his son and the importance of patient care.
“We've spoken a lot about that final, those final hours of Connor's life.”
Show all 25 chapters
Expert Insights on Tele-ICUs
24:17 to 28:03
Experts discuss the role of tele-ICUs and the need for better protocols and care.
“But the truth of the matter or the reality is, you know, only about 40, 50 percent of, you know, ICUs, right, in the United States, right, meet the leapfrog, you know, group standard.”
Telehealth in ICU and ER: Opportunities and Risks
28:03 to 28:31
Explore the potential and challenges of telehealth in emergency care.
“When used as part of a system with well-designed support and guardrails, they can offer assistance in the delivery of excellent care.”
Introducing Our Experts
28:37 to 29:03
Meet the panel of experts discussing tele-ICUs and their impact on care.
“and associate professor at Northwestern University.”
Understanding Non-Tele-ICUs Operations
29:04 to 29:56
Insights into how non-tele-ICUs function and the challenges they face.
“Often, depending on what time of day you're admitted to certain units, you can go a full 24 hours without ever having that MD be in the room with the patient.”
Concerns About Patient Assessment
29:57 to 30:24
Discussion on the limitations of remote assessment in telehealth.
“by not having a hands-on provider physically assessing a patient.”
Virtual Care Support in Short-Staffed Situations
30:25 to 31:32
How virtual care can alleviate staffing shortages in healthcare.
“that there is something lost in that lack of physical hands-on contact.”
Tele-ICU Adoption Patterns
31:33 to 32:24
Examining why large hospitals adopt tele-ICUs more than rural facilities.
“But if you have that connection via a virtual AV system or a tele-ICU, that gives you access to those physicians you would not have access to.”
Equity in Access to Tele-ICUs
32:25 to 34:06
Discussing the equity issues surrounding tele-ICU deployment.
“I think if you look at the literature on who has adopted Tela ICU, it is large academic medical centers or large hospital systems.”
Defining Tele-ICU Models
34:07 to 35:28
The diversity of tele-ICU implementations and their effectiveness.
“It doesn't refer to one discrete model or form of intervention.”
Cost Considerations of Tele-ICUs
35:29 to 36:45
Analyzing the financial implications of launching tele-ICUs.
“We don't need to say, you know, recruit more critical care physicians to get them into those settings where their support is needed.”
Measuring Tele-ICU Effectiveness
36:46 to 37:58
Evaluating whether tele-ICUs improve patient outcomes or serve as cost-saving measures.
“They just moved several ICUs to a remote model with no critical care doctor on site.”
The Role of Patient Perspectives
37:59 to 38:37
The importance of including patient views in telehealth discussions.
“For instance, in classic ethics dilemmas, right?”
Accountability in Tele-ICU Settings
38:38 to 39:38
Exploring the complexities of accountability in tele-ICUs.
“Nandita Nadig, a pulmonary and critical care physician, and Paul Melito.”
Navigating Responsibility in Tele-ICUs
39:39 to 42:00
Examining how to establish clear responsibility in tele-ICU models.
“There may be an on-site nurse, an on-site hospitalist who doesn't specialize in critical care, a remote intensivist monitoring many patients at once.”
AI in Tele-ICUs and Physician Accountability
42:00 to 43:46
Explore the complexities of AI integration in tele-ICUs and its impact on accountability.
“I mean, I think, yes, things will fall into place.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00New shows, new music, new movies, keeping up with pop culture sometimes feels like a full-time job. Thankfully, over at Pop Culture Happy Hour, it's literally our job. We break down what's actually worth watching, listening to, and pretending you already knew about. So the next time someone says, did you see that? You can say, yeah, obviously. Follow NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour wherever you get your podcasts.
0:31In August 2024, 26-year-old Connor Hilton checked into Bridgeport Hospital in Connecticut with severe abdominal pain. Overnight, he was transferred to critical care where he died. Only after did his family find out that Connor was treated at what's known as a tele-ICU. Connor had a lot to live for. Connor worked very hard to get where he was. And to have that taken away from us the way it did doesn't sit well with me. That's Connor's father, William Hilton. We'll hear more from him later in the hour. Connor's story puts a spotlight on a practice that's been around for two-plus decades, but still lacks substantial research, hospitals using telemedicine critical care, or tele-ICUs.
1:17They vary widely, but what they have in common is that at least part of the patient care is handled off-site by remote doctors, nurses, or specialists. Up to a third of ICU beds in the U.S. are in tele-ICUs. That's according to a study using data from the American Hospital Association. Take Wisconsin. As of May 1st, critical care physicians are no longer physically present in the ICUs of several Ascension satellite hospitals. They remain available via video call to help bedside nurses and on-site hospital medicine doctors known as hospitalists who do not specialize in critical care. Tele-ICUs do present an opportunity to expand and improve the health care people receive, but what are the risks of providing remote care in the most critical life-or-death moments?
2:04I'm Jen White. You're listening to the 1A Podcast. We'll be back with more after a short break. Stay with us.
2:15Welcome back to the 1A podcast. We're talking about the use of tele-ICUs in hospitals and the kind of care patients can expect. Joining us from Chicago is Dr. Nandita Nadig. She's a pulmonary and critical care physician and associate professor at Northwestern University's Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago. She's researched and worked inside tele-ICUs. Dr. Nadig, welcome. Thank you for having me. Joining us from Orlando, Florida is Paul Melito. He's an RN and the Director of Nursing Services for eMedicine at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Health System. He helped build UAB's virtual nursing program.
2:52He also serves on the American Telemedicine Association's Acute and Critical Care Special Interest Group. Paul, welcome to 1A. Hey, thanks for having me. And we have Julia Kolak with us from Garrison, New York in the Hudson Valley. She's a Ph.D. trained bioethicist and philosopher who's currently the Assistant Director of Research at the Hastings Center for Bioethics. That's a think tank. She also worked as a clinical ethicist in ICUs. Julia, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me. So Dr. Nadig, help us better understand what a tele-ICU is and what it isn't, because that term can cover a lot of ground.
3:27Yeah. You know, as you, you know, alluded in the show earlier, tele-ICU really refers to healthcare delivery for critically ill patients, right, by an intensivist from a remote location using electronic transfer of information. And it typically involves, you know, interactive, audiovisual platforms or systems. And I think in layman's terms, I think the way to best explain tele-ICU is it's an extension of critical care expertise, but not a replacement for bedside care. It allows ICU teams to support patients, bedside clinicians, hospitalists, most often in real time. particularly when critical care resources are unevenly distributed.
4:25You use the term intensivist. Just explain what kind of training that doctor gets. Yeah, so an intensivist is typically a physician who has had either training in internal medicine, anesthesia or surgical specialties to start off, And then on top of that undergoes, you know, subspecialty training in critical care medicine. So essentially taking care of, you know, patients in an intensive care unit where, you know, patients are typically connected to heart-lung machines or breathing machines or require, you know, support, you know, significant support. So, you know, in simple terms, I would say, you know, the sickest of the sick in the hospital are typically taken care of in an ICU.
5:18Now, Paul, you built and run a virtual nursing program at UAB. What does it look like when a tele-nurse is involved at an ICU? I think people most often think about nurses as being very hands-on. Absolutely. You know, I tell people the easiest way to visualize it is if you've seen the movie Iron Man. When Iron Man's in his suit, he has the AI technology Jarvis, right? And Jarvis will put all this stuff up on his visor. He can tell him where he's hurt, make predictions, make phone calls, and give him all data information. But Iron Man does all the physical work. That's really the relationship the virtual team has with the bedside team.
5:56The virtual team is Jarvis for the bedside team being Iron Men and Women. So the nurses, the non-nurses, physicians, they utilize computer intelligence technology and sometimes an AI overlay, depending on where they are in the program, that uses algorithms to pull data from different platforms, from vital science software, from trending software, from different places like that. And it gives them real-time visual alerts for things that are outside the norm. These are experienced nurses, usually 10, 20 years of experience, that are able to look through that data and those alerts and pull up those programs and say, okay, is this patient's oxygen dropping because they're wiggling their finger and they've got a bad connection to the device, or is this truly an acute change in their condition?
6:42When they have gone through that and they've looked through the chart, then they'll initiate a two-way audio-video experience, a camera assessment, to where the patient, the patient's family, the clinicians at the bedside can see and hear the virtual nurse, and the virtual nurse can clearly see all of them. And the technology is very sharp. They can zoom in so tight they can see the pupils on a patient's eyes. So it's very clear. And they get a global view of what's going on. they communicate in real time, it allows all the clinicians involved to be more proactive in care than reactive. Well, Dr.
7:11Nadik, you've worked as a critical care doctor in a tele-ICU setting. What does the job look like for tele-doctors compared to working on site at an ICU? You know, there are certainly aspects of it that are, you know, similar, right? I mean, you're taking care of critically ill patients, right, in an ICU, albeit remote, right? But there is a lot of information that can be obtained, right, from electronic health records. While you're reviewing these patients, right, in the ICU, you have the ability, as Paul mentioned, right, to call in and talk to the patients, the family, right, the clinicians at the bedside, the nurses at the bedside.
7:53But I think, you know, the aspects that are, I would say, are unique are, It depends what the level of involvement of a tele-ICU physician is. There are certain models that are continuous models where the tele-ICU physician is involved 24-7 versus some others that are intermittent overnight or something along those lines. And then, as Paul was saying, there's the proactive model where there is continuous assessment using risk prediction algorithms and so on, or they're reactive, right? When called upon, right, you know, you intervene. And then in terms of scope as well, right, there's full autonomy, right, where you have a collaborative model with the bedside team and, you know, are involved in the day-to-day decisions of, you know, the patient, where, you know, there are some models that are in minimal discretion.
8:46So it really depends on what the partnership looks like between the local bedside hospital or ICU and the remote tele-ICU team. Well, we got this text from one of you. My 83-year-old mom had a tele-visit one time when she was in the hospital with pneumonia. It was very impersonal, and if I wasn't there, she probably would not have understood what was happening. We all need advocates when we are being treated for a serious illness. The telehealth guy for my mom basically came on a screen and looked at her, didn't even talk, and I had to ask him, what's up? I think I scared him because he wasn't expecting me to be there.
9:23Julia, as an ethicist who really studies ethical questions in medicine, what are the questions that come up for you around telehealth, especially in a critical care case? Yeah, so I think tele-LCUs are neither inherently ethical nor unethical. Like many tools and innovations in medicine, the facts do not determine or settle the ethical questions, but they're certainly contributory to the ethical analysis. And I think what's so tricky about tele-ICUs, as I see it at least, is that there are a number of foundational empirical questions about how they're defined, how they operate, what their safety profile is relative to standard ICU care that have not been sufficiently answered to meaningfully weigh whether there are potential harms incurred with respect to their adoption and how those tradeoffs should be weighed ethically relative to their prospective benefit.
10:12I think there's also a number of commitments firmly ingrained in the foundations of medical ethics, like informed consent, autonomy, and privacy, that require careful analysis and reflection to determine how they translate to the tele-ICU setting. As that audience member just reported, I think a lot of people, when they know that their loved one is in a hospital, in an ICU, they immediately assume certain things about the level of care being received, how it's being delivered. And I think patients can feel betrayed, sometimes confused about what tele-ICU care delivery means in terms of what they have a right to expect from their physicians.
10:50Well, we have to go to a break. But coming up, we hear from the father of Connor Hilton, a 26-year-old who died while being treated in a tele-ICU and was pronounced dead by a remote doctor. That's just ahead.
11:07Welcome back to the 1A Podcast. William Hilton, a dentist based in Connecticut, was in the room when his son Connor was pronounced dead. But it wasn't a doctor in person who did so. Rather, a face on a screen, a doctor working remotely in what's known as a tele-ICU. Connor Hilton died in August 2024 at 26 years old, a day after being admitted to the hospital with severe abdominal pain. This March, his family sued the hospital where he was treated in Milford, Connecticut. It's part of the Yale New Haven Health System. The case raises questions about standards of care in tele-ICUs, which account for up to a third of U.S.
11:46ICU beds. We spoke to William Hilton and his attorney, Joel Faxon, earlier this week. Here's Dr. Hilton. I took Connor to the hospital August 14th, and two days prior to this, he wasn't feeling good. We thought it was a stomach bug because that was kind of going around my house. so we decided well actually he called me when i was at work and he's like will you take me to hospital really don't feel good and that's just what kid wants his dad to take him to hospital so i went home and picked him up we decided to and this is in north haven where i live north and we decided to take him to milford hospital um because well number one is a yale facility so So we assumed we would get great care.
12:37And also, we thought that we'd have less of a wait time. We got there just after 11 in the morning. And we were there pretty much the entire day. My wife and I, visiting hours were over that day at 7. He got his dinner around 6.30. We were talking about dental school starting the next day and about his getting a parking pass. And so I left at 7. It's the last time I saw him alive. The medical malpractice lawsuit you filed in March accuses the hospital of negligence, specifically in its use of an intensive care unit overseen remotely by an off-site doctor. When did you learn your son was being treated by a doctor who was not on site?
13:23We found out afterwards. I mean, you have to imagine, like we were shocked at so many different things, right? uh i've had nothing but time to look at what has happened in the past and uh the more time that goes by the more it's unsettling because we never we never would have allowed this to happen so number one we had no idea that that connor was you know decompensating and was was getting worse around me we had no idea and the thing is this connor was at that point he was in pain so connor was incapacitated. Conor had no ability to make any decisions for himself. What do you do in that situation?
14:07We needed to be called. We were never called. So he goes in the ICU just after midnight and he's in there for four hours. He's never seen by a doctor. No physician ever saw him until he coded. I would think there was time enough in four hours, time they probably could have let us know that our son was in the ICU. But no, I got a call at 4.45 in the morning, basically telling me that this is it. And I just, I mean, so no, I didn't know this was a tele-ICU. We were never told it was a tele-ICU. We were never told that he was getting worse. There's no way in the world that we would have ever said sent him to an unmanned ICO.
14:56And as I have found, this model is so flawed because, in my opinion, it's a father. Because not only is it remote, but their first responder is a hospitalist. So you have somebody who crashes, who maybe needs an airway, And their first responder is a hospitalist who doesn't intubate. For those unfamiliar, just explain what is a hospitalist. A hospitalist is basically like an internal medicine doctor. They're not really critical care trained, so they don't really intubate. So, you know, the people that are ER docs, those are the guys that are usually the ones who intubate. In this model, the responding doctor can't render life-saving airway management to my son.
15:49They have to then call a second person who is the ER doc who is qualified to intubate. So there are built-in double delays. I don't know how you would call that a true ICU. out. We did reach out to Bridgeport Hospital, part of Yale New Haven Health System, for a response to the lawsuit. Here's what they shared with us in a written statement. Our priority has been and remains providing safe, high-quality care to our patients. We remain committed to continuous review and improvement of patient safety practices. Because this is active litigation, we cannot comment on specific allegations, and we'll address the claims in the appropriate legal forum.
16:32Joel, I'd like to bring you in here. What is the legal case you're making in the medical malpractice suit against Bridgeport Hospital? This is, again, a suit you filed at the beginning of March. Yeah, so there's two components to it. One is the malpractice element, which is a failure of the hospital to render an appropriate level of care to patients. And in this particular case, Connor Hilton. And also, the second part of it is lack of informed consent, because at a very basic level, there's no patient or family of a patient that would consent to sending a critically ill person to an intensive care unit that doesn't have a doctor.
17:16And from Bill's perspective, all he needed was information so that he could make a decision for his son. And that information was never forthcoming. So just for some context, Yale is in New Haven. Milford is about 10 miles from New Haven. And then Bridgeport Hospital is down the road a little further in Bridgeport. So there are two fully staffed intensive care units owned by the same hospital system that are within less than 10 minute ambulance ride either side of Milford Hospital. So there is no need for what I've called a fake ICU in the middle. If a person decompensates to the point where they need that level of care, it's incumbent upon the hospital to provide that level of care and at a very minimum at least disclose to the patient that the care that they're going to get if they stay at Milford Hospital is going to be substandard or inadequate or potentially life-threatening because of the fact that they don't have adequate staffing.
18:22But that information was never provided. What kind of remedies are you seeking in this case? Well, I think there's many things that can come out of this lawsuit. And I think Bill can speak to this, but I think the main thing that he wants to accomplish here is to shed light on the fact that there is a growing area of medical care where you really don't get any medical care. So there's important areas that legislatures across the country could participate in here to mandate minimum staffing requirements and minimum disclosure requirements. So that's position number one. Obviously, in a lawsuit, unfortunately, the only remedy that the legal system provides in all 50 states for something like this is a financial payment.
19:08But I think from the perspective of the Hilton family, they would just simply forego any kind of financial payment if there could be a structural change where a hospital tells the patient exactly what the medical care is going to be, tells them that it's going to be on a screen so that they can make a decision, and furthermore, that there should be intervention by public policy makers, lawmakers, about these kind of disclosures so people can make informed choices. Bill, I'd love to hear from you as well. I'm hearing two things from Joel. One, increased transparency for patients around treatment at ICUs, these telehealth ICUs.
19:53But what other remedies would you like to see? Well, I will tell you, the way I guess I would respond is, if I back up, I've learned, I mean, I didn't think before this happened, that I would have to be such an advocate. I mean, you always want to be an advocate for your loved one. But I guess I didn't ever think that I would have to ask basic questions about basic levels of care. But I was floored that I now know that I have to. This happens again, and we're in the hospital. I have a whole list of questions I'm going to ask. I'm going to ask who's there, who's covering, what is the treatment plan.
20:35So I want this whole thing to change. If this hospital can't handle a patient who has to go to the ICU, well, you transfer them. But before then, you have to let the family know that there's even a situation brewing. I mean, it seems very basic to me that the hospital should have to tell the family what's going on with their loved one, Especially if, you know, at Conor's lowest point, Conor had like zero voice for himself. Like it breaks my heart. Not only did he have no voice for himself, we had no voice either. Were we given a chance, you're darn straight we would have had him transferred right away.
21:18They have specific ambulances that can transport people from ICU to ICU. There's things that could have been done. And I do think the whole informed consent thing is so important to me because that did not happen with us. We've spoken a lot about that final, those final hours of Connor's life. But Dr. Hilton, how would you like people to remember your son? I mean, tell us about him. Connor was a kid who had so many dreams. Like he basically picked out a house that he wanted to buy when he had grown up money after he became a dentist. right he wanted to be a room criminal specialist so he had a car picked out as well connor had a lot to live for connor worked very hard to get where he where he was and to have that taken away from us the way it did doesn't sit well with me well i want to thank you both for speaking with us and sharing your story with us we appreciate it thank you thank you very much That was William Hilton and his attorney, Joel Faxon.
22:26They spoke to us from Connecticut earlier this week. Now, an investigation by the Connecticut Department of Public Health in July 2025 found Bridgeport Hospital, quote, failed to ensure quality medical care was provided. That's according to the Harford Current. The Connecticut Hospital Association told the Current this about tele-ICUs, quote, different than telehealth and other care settings, it is designed to enhance care for critically ill patients by adding another layer of expert oversight, not replacing bedside care, end quote. Let's return to our guests. We're here with Dr. Nandita Nadig, pulmonary and critical care physician and associate professor at Northwestern University, Paul Molito, director of nursing services for e-medicine at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Health System, and Julia Kolak, assistant director of research at the Hastings Center for Bioethics.
23:15So we just all heard from William Hilton about the night his son Connor died at a tele-ICU without knowing more specific details. And of course, we're not asking any of you to litigate the case. What went through your mind hearing that story, Paul? Yeah, I think we need to be transparent. We need to communicate and let people know that patients know exactly what's going on, that our physicians and the virtual team are just like you said, a supplement. We're not a replacement, but in those cases where you don't have the physical hands, you help. You give your expertise and then you work as a team, just in any other case.
23:54So I think that's one thing that we want to make clear to our patients and our community is none of us are here to replace. The virtual team is not a replacement. It's adding that extra layer of support to enhance the care. And, you know, we all want the same thing. We want the best for our patients. Dr. Nadek, your thoughts? You know, I'd say that a majority of the ISUs now have, you know, of some intensivist involvement, right? But the truth of the matter or the reality is, you know, only about 40, 50 percent of, you know, ICUs, right, in the United States, right, meet the leapfrog, you know, group standard.
24:29And, you know, what the leapfrog group is, you know, it's a national nonprofit organization, right, that collects information about, you know, hospital performance and quality and safety and sort of so on and grades hospitals, right, based on, you know, a number of things. And one of the things that they look at is, you know, the intensity model of, you know, intensivist coverage for all of their patients. And, you know, the reality is only about 40, 50 percent of hospitals in the United States actually, you know, meet, right, the grade A level of, you know, intensivist coverage. And so I think tele-ICU is there to help expand, right, access, right, for, you know, those 50 percent of hospitals that don't have it, but clearly not, you know, does not, you know, replace, you know, bedside care.
25:12like bedside care, bedside protocols, or communications. We got this email from Ruth who says, I'm a nurse practitioner working in telemedicine in an ICU with limited access to ICU-trained physicians on site. As I live in a rural area of South Dakota, sometimes weather does not permit transfer of patients in critical condition. I have found the access to telemedicine essential. But Dr. Nadig, it does raise the question, in a tele-ICU setting, if there's a specific procedure required, that would be handled by an intensivist, but that intensivist is remote, who handles that procedure? Yeah, no, that's a very important question, right?
25:47I mean, you know, if there are interventions, procedures that need to be done, and I think this is sort of where it's important to think about, right, how the partnership between the remote, you know, intensivist or the tele-team and, you know, sort of the bedside has been, you know, organized. You know, I think there needs to be tele-ICU protocols, right? If there needs to be an intubation, right? Who is your go-to person, right? If there needs to be a procedure, you know, those need to be spelled out during the onboarding process and the implementation process, right? Communication, right? You know, sort of, you know, what is our communication pathway, right?
26:27And as, you know, mentioned earlier, right, we need to be transparent about, you know, the tele-team that does, you know, interact with the patient and family. So it really comes down to collaborative rounding models, agreement on triage systems, agreement on escalation pathways between the local hospital and the tele-team. Julia, we heard William Hilton saying neither he nor his son consented to his son's treatment at a tele-ICU. You mentioned informed consent. What should that look like in practice? Yeah, so I would start off by saying that the legal and ethical concept of consent is related, but it's not identical, right?
27:14So classically, you can have satisfied the legal standard of informed consent by issuing disclosures about risks, benefits, and alternatives, even if the patient potentially misunderstands what they're agreeing to. Whereas I would argue you have a pretty austere ethical obligation that goes above and beyond the legal obligation to ensure patients really process and comprehend what you're saying to them so they can assess whether or not they want to participate in treatment. And I think, you know, as a mediator, I can imagine patients or family members feeling betrayed about not being given an opportunity to opt out by requesting transfer.
27:50We have a standard of what a reasonable person would want to know. I think in this case, the reasonable question is, am I going to have care delivered through an ICU? We have to take another quick break, but before we go, we got this text from one of you. Telehealth for ICU and ER care presents opportunity and risk. When used as part of a system with well-designed support and guardrails, they can offer assistance in the delivery of excellent care. I did, however, hear a director of nursing say at a meeting that new ER nurse practitioners did not require intubation competency because they could be monitored during intubation via telehealth.
Read the full transcript
28:26We'll be right back.
28:31Back to our conversation about tele-ICUs. We're here with Dr. Nandita Nadig, pulmonary and critical care physician and associate professor at Northwestern University. Paul Melito is also with us. He's director of nursing services for e-medicine at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Health System. and Julia Kolak, Assistant Director of Research at the Hastings Center for Bioethics. This message came in from a physician assistant in Washington, D.C., who works in a hospital setting, and she wanted to talk a little bit about how non-tele-ICUs often operate. I think there is this kind of assumption or belief that everyone gets seen by the highest level MD or attending on the team very kind of quickly.
29:12When in actuality, that's not the case. Often, depending on what time of day you're admitted to certain units, you can go a full 24 hours without ever having that MD be in the room with the patient. That's not to say that the case isn't discussed extensively behind the scenes. And you get seen by other members of the team who are supposed to know how to kind of communicate and escalate that. And this is especially the case overnight. There is less people working. Yes, the hospital is a 24-7 building. but a lot of it runs like your typical sort of nine to five. Thanks for that message. We also got this email from Ashley who says, I'm an ICU nurse of over six years and have seen an increase in telehealth providers.
29:56I've also seen a lot of things missed by not having a hands-on provider physically assessing a patient. This happens in hospitals even without telehealth. Physicians carry heavy patient loads and rely more on labs, scans, and data than they do physical assessments and spending time with them and their families. Paul, I want to come to you because a lot of what we've seen in the messages we've gotten from our audience about this issue is just a feeling that medical practitioners cannot fully assess a patient if they're not in the room, that there is something lost in that lack of physical hands-on contact.
30:36even if you have great technology, even if you have people in the room sort of acting as your eyes and ears for you. Yes. So, well, that's true and very good question. You know, as a nurse, I was taught you have to put your hands on a patient. You've got to see the patient. And that doesn't go away. That's why we keep reiterating that, you know, this is not a replacement. So one of the big things that we want people to know and that we keep talking about is there are lack of resources out there. Patients or hospitals aren't staffed to the ideal staffing, and it's not because they don't want to be.
31:12It's just because the staff isn't there. When you have the virtual assistant of having a virtual nurse, having a virtual physician there, they are able to help in those cases where people are just short-staffed. So you don't necessarily miss everything. You're able there to give that extra support, that extra access. If you're a patient in a very rural place that doesn't have a physician like a stroke-certified physician or a critical care-certified physician, they're not going to be able to show up in 30 seconds when you get there. But if you have that connection via a virtual AV system or a tele-ICU, that gives you access to those physicians you would not have access to.
31:55Now, it doesn't mean that they will not transfer you if the need is there. But sometimes that need isn't available at the moment where you can still have the virtual access and still have a professional look in on you and check in on you. And that goes for nursing and physicians. Well, Dr. Nadig, it's interesting. The data on where tele-ICUs are located shows something that seems counterintuitive. It's large, well-resourced nonprofit hospitals that have adopted tele-ICU at the highest rate. Rural hospitals, the ones arguably most in need due to a lack of staffing, are among the least likely to have it.
32:31Why is that? That's a very important aspect to note. I think if you look at the literature on who has adopted Tela ICU, it is large academic medical centers or large hospital systems. You know, and the other end, you would think it's actually the rural hospital, right, or the community hospital or the smaller hospital that needs it. But that has to do actually with the amount of infrastructure, right, and the staffing and the processes that are needed to help deployment of tele-ICU. It's a financial infrastructure as well and the financial implications which are available for large health systems or academic medical centers, while for rural or community hospitals, that financial burden is not tenable.
33:24And that's the reason why we have a higher propensity of adoption of tele-ICU at academic medical centers. Well, Julie, I would love to hear your take on this because tele-ICUs have the potential to extend specialist care to those rural and underserved communities that would otherwise go without. But the equity case for tele-ICU assumes that technology flows toward the communities that need it most. If that's not what's happening, what does that tell us? I think it tells us that our intention doesn't match reality, and I think that's ethically significant. But I think there's a broader problem here, right?
34:06Because the same way ICU, what counts as a tele-ICU looks different, right? There's a lot of heterogeneity. It doesn't refer to one discrete model or form of intervention. It can mean anything from remote monitoring to alerting to tele-intensivist consultation to remote clinicians with continuous monitoring and real decision-making authority. All that's meaningfully different, right? So the evidence is going to be mixed. And we know that the evidence is quite mixed on its efficacy safety profile. but it also means that how it's deployed in real cases is going to be motivated by different factors, right?
34:39If you have enough in-person support on the ground to make it more of an ideal bridge case where you're sort of topping off care that's already adequately in place, that's going to look really different, right? And so I think we need to have a candid and frank conversation at the national level about where it's appropriate to implement a tele-ICU and in what capacity, in what form. Not all cases are created equally. I think there are real questions we have to answer. For instance, what minimum bedside infrastructure must remain physically present for a unit to legitimately function as an ICU? So I'm all for an equity argument about improving access in places that are remote, where it's hard to bring that staffing to bear.
35:21But I think we need to ask careful questions to make sure that that doesn't shade into a kind of creep where we're saying, well, maybe it's good enough to have the tele-ICU. We don't need to say, you know, recruit more critical care physicians to get them into those settings where their support is needed. Well, Paula, I want to make sure we talk about money. How much do you tele-ICUs cost to launch and maintain? How much money do they save a hospital? Loaded question. You know, it depends. It depends on the program. It depends on how it's set up. You know, there can be agreements between the group that is manning the tele-ICU and the hospital that's receiving it.
36:02So it's hard to say. I honestly couldn't put a number on it. It is not cheap. I will say that. And that in itself is one of the main reasons why the rural hospitals are slower to adopt it. If you go and ask the rural hospitals, the rural communities, they want access to those physicians. They want that virtual care availability because they don't have those specialty physicians there. They don't have the experience that they need. But the cost is a thing. So it's something that we're all working on. And that's part of the excitement around certain things like rural health transformation and Big Beautiful Bill to hopefully supplement some of those costs to get those specialty care there.
36:43Julia, if we look at Ascension, Wisconsin, it's been climbing out of years of operating losses. They just moved several ICUs to a remote model with no critical care doctor on site. Is there a way to assess when a tele-ICU program is being built to serve patients versus as a cost-saving measure? Yeah, I think that's a fascinating question. And you're right to point out that, you know, the motivation is mixed, whether it's being designed, for instance, to shorten length of stay, which is a metric you see a lot in the literature, versus, for instance, reducing mortality. I think one sort of cursory way to do this is to sort of separate what it is that we're hoping to achieve with tele-ICU.
37:26If it's, for instance, improvements in mortality, improvement in patient outcomes, I think that's reasonable to foreground. I think that's reasonable to celebrate. But the boundary condition can be a little bit tenuous, right? How much cost a hospital is shouldering is not ethically irrelevant either. So it can be really difficult to tease these things apart. I think it's important that we do that. But again, I think there needs to be more dialogue also with patients, right? Stakeholders, people who are affected. What counts as good care delivery? We know that that's not always exhausted by medical outcomes, right?
37:59For instance, in classic ethics dilemmas, right? Beneficence often pulls against autonomy, right? So having good outcomes medically might mean that you have to override patient autonomy. And when those two things come up against each other, often autonomy actually prevails. So knowing that we have certain kinds of benefits in terms of medical outcome also doesn't win the ethical argument. I think it's just an opening to a deeper and more sincere conversation about how we should weigh those tradeoffs relative to one another. And I think patient perspective has to be central to that deliberation.
38:32and clinical ethicists as well need to be part of that national conversation. We're speaking to bioethicist Julia Kolak. Also with us, Dr. Nandita Nadig, a pulmonary and critical care physician, and Paul Melito. He's director of nursing services for e-medicine at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Health System. We got this from Julia who emails, several years ago, my adult daughter was being treated at UAB Hospital for rare cancer. Overall, she received outstanding care there. But one night, the nurses had a hard time waking her up, so the telehealth doctor was contacted. He came on the TV screen, sounded bored, and said she's just over-medicated.
39:09Give her Narcan. I was shocked, and after the call, the nurse said, no, we're not doing that. That makes no sense. Turned out she was in kidney failure and died two days later. While there are good outcomes with telehealth, to have a distant and tired doctor make a quick diagnosis and then sign off without taking questions is inexcusable and dangerous. Technology is great but limited and only as good as the practitioners. When something goes wrong in a tele-ICU, the question of accountability gets complicated. There may be an on-site nurse, an on-site hospitalist who doesn't specialize in critical care, a remote intensivist monitoring many patients at once.
39:50Julia, is there a clear understanding of who is ultimately responsible? From my standpoint, no. I think tele-ICU systems undoubtedly create layered accountability structures that complicate moral responsibility, right? You have bedside nurses, hospitalists, remote intensivists, respiratory therapists, administrators, command center personnel, and then also the in-person remote schism in terms of professional discretion. It's not clear how liability should work, what the risk legal profile entails when a physician who's safe, present at the bedside with the gestalt of seeing the patient in the room and a physician who's remotely monitoring disagree to say nothing of the complex decision making conditions under that kind of distributed workflow.
40:35So I think there's more work to be done there in terms of figuring out theoretically how we should go about processing accountability and responsibility. But it's imperative, I feel it's incumbent upon me to mention that medical ethics presumes the attending physician is the authoritative locus of decision-making. Everything flows from that, right? And so I think there's a human dimension, a sort of human puzzle about who we want to be responsible and whether or not that translates to the technical reality of how tele-ICUs are implemented in practice in these hugely variable ways. Dr. Nadig, to your mind, how do you build clear lines of responsibility into a virtual care model?
41:19Yeah, you know, I think to your point, you know, standards of professionalism, you know, are standards of professionalism, right? I don't think they are different for, you know, the bedside team versus, you know, sort of the tele-ICU team. And I think that, you know, is, you know, sort of the foundation, right, of, you know, care and delivery, right? I think, you know, in terms of boundaries, right, I think, you know, spending as much time as possible, right, during the adoption implementation phase is important, right, to figure out, right, who is responsible for what, right, coming up with, you know, sort of contingencies, right, and I'll tell you as an intensivist, as a practicing intensivist, right, we're always, you know, sort of hoping for the best and, you know, sort of things go on as planned, but what we're also always doing is, you know, preparing for the worst, right, and I think that is sort of, what should be factored into when you're implementing any new program.
42:18I mean, I think, yes, things will fall into place. You learn, you iterate as time goes on. But if things don't, what are our backup plans for every patient-related scenario is what needs to be thought of as you're implementing tele-ICU. Well, Julia, as many tele-ICU platforms are using algorithmic alerts, It's AI-driven tools to flag changes in a patient's conditions. As those tools become more central to decision-making, how do you think that shapes our approach to physician accountability? I think this is a hugely complicated and important question. You know, I think AI in medicine is a powerful possibility, but unfortunately it often means that we're relying on intrinsically opaque systems.
43:05So, you know, my opinion as an ethicist is that their use in any context in medicine is often going to fail to meet transparency thresholds that I think clinicians require for moral accountability. We often talk about the black box problem in AI. But in healthcare, that blurs accountability. That's a huge part of a medical legal concept of moral responsibility for decision making that's used from that tool. We expect attending physicians to use their expertise to make decisions. And if we don't understand how they're making those judgment calls because they're relying on systems we don't understand, I think that really does blur accountability in a meaningful way.
43:46Well, lots more to discuss, but we'll have to leave the conversation there for now. That's Julia Kolak, a PhD-trained bioethicist and philosopher who's currently the Assistant Director of Research at the Hastings Center for Bioethics in New York's Hudson Valley. Also with us today, Paul Melito, an RN and the Director of Nursing Services for eMedicine at the University of Alabama-Birmingham Health System. He also serves on the American Telemedicine Association's Acute and Critical Care Special Interest Group. And Dr. Nandita Nadig, a pulmonary and critical care physician and associate professor at Northwestern University's Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago.
44:20Thanks to you all. Today's producers were Avery Jessa Chapnick and Thomas Liu. This program comes to you from WAMU, part of American University in Washington, distributed by NPR. I'm Jen White. Thanks for listening. We'll talk again tomorrow. This is 1A.
From the publisher
It was only after his passing that his family found out that Conor was treated at what’s known as a “tele-ICU.” His story shines a light on a practice that’s been around for decades despite a lack of substantial research about its outcomes.
A tele-ICU is a hospital unit where patient care is handled off-site by remote doctors, nurses, or specialists. Up to a third of ICU beds in the U.S. are in tele-ICUs. That’s according to a study from the American Hospital Association.
In Wisconsin, as of May 1, critical care physicians are no longer physically present in the ICUs of a few Ascension satellite hospitals. They remain available via video call to help bedside nurses and on-site hospital medicine doctors, known as hospitalists, who do not specialize in critical care.
These facilities do present an opportunity to expand and improve the health care people receive. But what are the risks of replacing in-person care in the most critical, life or death moments?
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