Why Does It Matter If We Matter?

16:25Michael G. Thompson:So that's one concern of yours. What other data tells us that mattering affects mental health?

16:33Megan McGinnis:Well, you can look at road rage. You can look at online attacks. You could look at school shootings as desperate cries saying, oh, I don't matter. I'll show you I matter. So people will go to great lengths to prove that they matter.

16:53Michael G. Thompson:You talk in your book about life transitions and how they can be these really destabilizing forces. That could be anything from moving to another city. It can be marriage or divorce or the loss of a loved one. How do transitions affect how we feel about our value?

17:16Megan McGinnis:Yeah, transitions are, I wish I had known this when I'd gone through a few rough transitions in my own life, that transitions by their very nature are difficult. We matter in a specific role to certain people in a specific way. And so when those roles fall away, empty nesting, grief, divorce, relocating, losing a job, it's natural for our sense of mattering to take a hit. But in the people that I interviewed for the book, so many of them talked about how they got through these transitions. And the first was realizing that they weren't alone, that others had gone through similar transitions. They looked for role models, people who had gone through these transitions in a successful way.

18:02And then they harnessed the power of invitation, both accepting invitations and also issuing them in their lives.

18:10Megan McGinnis:Many people, when you're going through a rough transition, and this included me as well, you feel like you don't want to reach out until you get your life in order. But there's actually research called the beautiful mess effect, which talks about how we often overestimate how perfect we need to appear in order to be worthy relationship partners. And then in fact, our authenticity, our vulnerability is what attracts people to us. So if you're going through a hard transition, say yes to people when those invitations come. And if you're not getting the invitations, I interviewed a woman who went through a terrible divorce and she was complaining to her therapist about her social life had just collapsed overnight.

18:53Megan McGinnis:The couple of friends were no longer asking her out. And her therapist said, well, you have agency here. You can invite people into your home, into your kitchen, start issuing those invitations. And that's how she built back her social network and her sense of mattering.

19:08Michael G. Thompson:We got this email from Hannah who says, I'd like to hear how this pertains to people with disabilities and chronic illness. My sister is facing a new chronic illness diagnosis that severely limits her physically and mentally with brain fog, anxiety, and depression. She can feel the gulf between what she has to offer and what she can currently offer and doesn't know what her future will look like. Her isolation and disability have made her feel like she barely exists as a person in the world, let alone mattering. That is so hard.

19:40Megan McGinnis:And I spoke with many people who were grappling with similar issues in their lives. What I will say is what a wonderful sister to be thinking about this. And we can be, you know, people who can try. You can't force someone to feel like they matter. That is a felt experience. but you could set them up to feel those feelings, to ask for advice. I mean, one of the greatest and richest sources of self-esteem that we have is when people ask for our advice. So even in small ways, asking for advice, letting your sister know you rely on her, that you care about her, that she's significant in your life, that you appreciate her, and that you are invested in her well-being.

20:27Michael G. Thompson:Yeah. And I would just offer here, having been through an illness with a sister who unfortunately didn't survive her illness, just spending time sometimes is enough, time that doesn't require them to really do anything. I remember her going under treatment and I would just, I said, you know, do you want me to just sit with you? And she'd say, yeah, because it was just about the company and knowing that she was seen. So I would just offer that from personal experience.

21:02Megan McGinnis:As you're speaking, you're a first, I'm sorry about your sister. No, it's okay. Oh, thank you. But as you were speaking, I was thinking about one of my favorite studies, which proves your point. The researchers had people standing at the foot of a hill. They asked them to estimate the steepness when they were standing there alone and when they were standing there with someone they cared about. The hill looked less steep when they were standing there with someone else. So, you know, the idea that having someone in our life going through these things with us make life feel less hard.

21:37Michael G. Thompson:We got this really interesting question from Martin who says, The question, do I matter, itself sounds very American and rings slightly odd to non-Western ears. As an Arab immigrant, my sense of self-worth has always been defined collectively, not individually. I don't question whether or not I matter, but I do question whether or not I'm contributing my best effort to the groups to which I belong, my family, my circle of friends, my house of worship, and my country. My matterness matters less to me than knowing I'm meeting the expectations I have for myself. What do you think about that, Jennifer, that this is a Western question?

22:16Megan McGinnis:I think he is making a wise point, which is it is certainly very much a preoccupation of people who live in hyper-individualistic cultures. And there is a difference when you are living in more collectivist cultures. But I would argue that Americans, we have outsourced this hyper-individualism into other countries through social media, through technology. and so others around the world are feeling these pangs as well.

22:48Michael G. Thompson:Here's another email we got from John who listens on WITF in South Central Pennsylvania. For our prehistoric ancestors, the desire to matter was a key motivation in the struggle to run, hunt, gather, and survive. So the desire to matter is a part of the basic desire to live. The question is, how can that drive to matter help us survive today in these uniquely dangerous times? John, thanks. We'll talk more about that coming up. But Jennifer, you write about how there were societal systems in the not-so-distant past that supported feelings of belonging and being valued. You said, you know, here in the U.S., we've outsourced some of this work.

23:25Michael G. Thompson:What happened to those systems that used to exist, even in Western culture?

23:30Megan McGinnis:Yeah, they've broken down. I think it's why we're seeing an influx of people going back to religious institutions. we have really, in my mind, stretched humans to our capacity to go through life individually, and it's not working. We are reaping what we have sown, and it is time now to really thread back these communities that baked in these signals that we matter to each other. Did you find any efforts to fill those gaps now? Oh, I found a lot of efforts. There are certainly, and David Brooks has talked about weavers in his work, there are so many wonderful people around the country who are working hard to rebuild this social fabric.

24:18Megan McGinnis:But also, I visited workplaces. And I would argue workplaces are a lever that we could really be thinking about how best to pull it so that adults can feel like they matter, especially in Western countries like ours where so much of our identity is based in our workplaces.

24:37Michael G. Thompson:Let's bring another voice in now. Dr. Rebecca Neuberger-Goldstein has studied mattering for decades. She's a former professor of philosophy and the author of another recent book on mattering called The Mattering Instinct, How Our Deepest Longing Drives Us and Divides Us. Rebecca, welcome to the program. Hi, Jen. Happy to be here. So you've been studying mattering, as I said, for decades from where the instinct comes from to how it manifests in society more broadly. So let's start with that first part. What do we know about where this instinct comes from on a basic biological level?

25:14Jenn White:Yeah, it really is the laws of nature that have shaped us. And so I actually start with physics, go to biology, and to our very, very special brain, the most complicated object yet discovered in the universe. Our brain has a tremendous capacity that we call self-reflection. We're able to step outside of ourselves and consider ourselves as if from the outside, as another object. we notice how much we matter to ourselves and we ask, do I really deserve this? I spend the great amount of my time, and this is true for all of us, thinking about ourselves. And when we're fantasizing, what are we fantasizing about?

26:05Jenn White:Ourselves. and we have that capacity to question and to ask for some sort of justification for this self-mattering. We want to know whether we deserve it and that's how I define the mattering instinct.

26:24Michael G. Thompson:Well, it's interesting in all that self-reflection, your research finds that people generally fall into one of four categories that you call mattering projects. In other words, we all feel the instinct to matter, but how we try to matter is different. So just briefly walk us through those four categories.

26:42Jenn White:Yes, and it is, I think, the deepest difference between us. So there are what I call the transcenders, and they are those who see the purpose of their life. their mattering coming from a transcendent source, whether they call it God or something more spiritual. But for them, their mattering is cosmic. They were created for a purpose. They have a role to play in the narrative of eternity. It doesn't get much bigger than that. And, you know, it used to be, as Jennifer Wallace had said, that this was how most of us pursued our mattering. There are, and we live in a less religious age now, there are those who are socializers, and this is mainly what's been spoken about so far in the show, those who see mattering in terms of mattering to others.

27:45Jenn White:That is their purpose. We all need to matter to others. We're a gregarious species, evolve from gregarious species. We all need to matter to others. But if you collapse this need to justify your existence and yourself mattering in terms of mattering to others, this is to be a socializer. The need for fame, for example, is also, I categorize them among socializers. If they matter to hordes of strangers, that will convince them that they matter. It's ultimately ourselves.

28:19Michael G. Thompson:So, transcenders, socializers, what's the third pocket?

28:23Jenn White:The next one are heroic strivers. And these are people who have, it's not mattering to others, it's not mattering to God. They have certain standards of excellence in mind. Could be intellectual, artistic, athletic, ethical. They need to feel like they are approaching these standards in order to feel that they matter. I'm an academic. Most of the people I know are heroic strivers. Last of all are the competitors. they understand mattering in zero-sum terms to the extent it's just a psychological feature of them to the extent that they feel that they matter they need to feel that they matter more than others it can be on an individual basis it could be on a group basis that they believe they belong to a superior group and and and that is very important to their sense of mattering and get very incensed if other groups that they consider they matter more than arise.

29:24Jenn White:One of the people I interview, I also go into many stories, one of the people I interviewed was an ex-neo-Nazi.

29:32Michael G. Thompson:We are discussing the concept of mattering and what it tells us about ourselves. We're hearing from so many of you. Peter in Shelburne, Vermont says, I started a very successful natural food store. I felt like I mattered because I provided food for people and I gave employment to hundreds of people. Having spent a life in chaos, I felt needed. Now, I only matter to me. It's my time. Reading or hiking or watching the birds at the feeder matters to me. I'm all done seeking my meaning outside of myself. And still to come, how we can foster a sense of mattering, including in the workplace. That's just ahead.

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30:41Megan McGinnis:This message comes from NPR sponsor Charles Schwab with its original podcast on investing. Each week, you'll get thoughtful, in-depth analysis of both the stock and the bond markets. Listen today and subscribe at schwab.com slash oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts. This message comes from the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, recognizing extraordinarily creative individuals whose ideas, solutions, and discoveries expand people's expectations of what's possible.

31:13Michael G. Thompson:MacFound.org. Let's get back to our conversation about mattering. We're here with Jennifer Wallace, author of Mattering, The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose, and Rebecca Neuberger-Goldstein, author of The Mattering Instinct, How Our Deepest Longing Drives Us and Divides Us. We got this email from Kim in Farmington, Connecticut. I am a mid-career surgeon who works with breast cancer patients. Sometimes I feel like I matter too much. How do you deal with this? Jennifer, your thoughts?

31:44Megan McGinnis:I have a whole chapter in the book, actually, on the idea of mattering too much. And I argue that that's not true mattering, that true mattering is a balance between balancing our own needs with the needs of others. And that can be very hard in caring professions like this woman who wrote in or caregivers or parents. It's something that I had to learn how to do for myself, which was to prioritize my own needs, just like I prioritize the needs of others, to create that kind of balance.

32:17Michael G. Thompson:We also heard from David, who says, I'm a 68-year-old man who has spent the last 10 years caregiving my mother and sister. They both passed away now, and I'm left with an absence of purpose. It's a new world I've reentered, and reinventing myself is very difficult. And this gets back to that transition time we were speaking about earlier, Jennifer, and how people have to maybe figure out a new equation for mattering, especially after, for instance, caregiving for loved ones for years. And once they're past that stage, they find themselves left, like David, with this absence of purpose.

32:55Megan McGinnis:Yeah, I heard this over and over again in my interviews and the people that seemed to find a way through it had a similar formula almost as you put it, which is finding a need in the world, in their community, in their neighborhood, and then using their time or their talent or their treasure to meet that need. And that is how it was in living a purposeful life and looking for those small needs and finding small ways to meet it, that these people got themselves through the rough transition.

33:27Michael G. Thompson:Now, Rebecca, your book title is The Mattering Instinct, How Our Deepest Longing Drives and Divides Us. And we've been talking a lot this hour about this need for connection. But when you describe these four categories of mattering, so the socializers, competitors, transcenders, and heroic strivers, you argue that that instinct to matter can also divide us. How?

33:54Jenn White:Well, it is so core in us, and it is we stake our life on the kind of mattering project that we choose to push us into the future, to give us the strength to carry on. And this is how the whole notion of meaningfulness and purpose and a coherent life comes from. And there's a great tendency to think, look, that the way I am doing it is the right way. It's not just arbitrary. It's not just my way. It's the right way. So I call this the urge to universalize. And it's a kind of religious people are often accused of it. But in fact, I see it all across what I call the mattering map. That includes all of these different ways that we strive.

34:45Jenn White:That's one of the ways that we really, it divides us. You know, certainly there have been religious wars, but there are wars in the academy between the scientists and the humanities. Like, which ones really matter? And in many, many ways. You know, I have spoken to mothers whose mattering project is the flourishing of their children and have told me, you know, that people who don't have children have meaningless lives. I've spoken to scientists who say the lives that really matter is discovering the laws of nature. We are matter discovering matter, what matter really is. That matters more than anything else.

35:27Jenn White:So among all different ways of striving after mattering, there's a tendency to universalize it and to think that other people are doing wrong. They're not doing it the right way.

35:40Michael G. Thompson:Well, Jennifer, that connects to something in your book that really resonated with me. And it's that at the end of the day, what people really want is to feel like they're seen, that they're seen fully as who they are. And that could happen again in big and small ways. But for me, this connects to work because, you know, we spend a lot of time at work. I'm thinking of the thousands of people who were laid off just in the past year, sometimes with just, you know, an impersonal email without acknowledgement of their value in an organization. You hear at most offices about these issues around silos and how, you know, this department doesn't know what this other department is doing or doesn't value what this other department is doing.

36:31Michael G. Thompson:What have you found in your research about how the workplace plays into our sense of mattering, considering that we often spend so much of our time and our lives at work?

36:42Megan McGinnis:Yes, I went in search for the book of what are some of the jobs that you just know you matter, right? Firefighters, they risk their lives to save ours. And then I spoke with a fire chief named Greg who told me that even firefighters can question the value of their work. And so I think this story of the firefighters really is applicable to all of us. So I don't know if you know this, but firefighters are often the first to arrive at the scene of a car accident or a medical emergency. They stabilize the person and then EMS takes over. And the firefighters never know what happened next. Did the person survive?

37:17Megan McGinnis:Did they ever walk again? Did their efforts make a difference? And so Greg, this fire chief, created a system to change that. He tracked the outcomes of rescues so that his firefighters would know when their actions saved a life or eased someone's suffering. And I thought, how often do we all go through life, not just in the workplace, but very much in the workplace, but also in our personal lives, wondering, did that advice I offer ever work? And so what I argue in the book is one of the best ways, both in the workplace but even outside the workplace, that we can foster a sense of mattering in each other is by connecting each other to our impact.

37:54Megan McGinnis:I think of it almost as connecting the dots, connecting the dots of what you do. Let's take it at the workplace. What you do at work to how it impacts your team, to how it impacts the company's bottom line, to how it impacts the clients, to how it impacts society. We can draw these, connect the dots for each other and connect each other like the firefighter did with his fire people, firefighters.

38:21Michael G. Thompson:So that's in a work context. But we got this email from Sharon who says, I honestly don't feel like I matter. I live alone away from family and I only see my significant others a few hours a week. I don't have a large social circle. I also work retail and that will make you feel like you definitely don't matter. People can be very rude to cashiers. What keeps me going is the fact that it would greatly inconvenience my coworkers and partner and sister if I do disappear. Sometimes the feeling of obligation is all that keeps me going. How would you respond to that?

38:55Megan McGinnis:I would say that this is a common thing that I heard in my interviews of people really feeling invisible. and one of the things that seemed to work for people and it's a practice that I've adopted in my own life is that at night when I go to sleep, I think about one small way where I added value in the world and one small way when I felt valued. And so I would offer that as a practice for this woman who wrote in. We are all wired by what researchers call a negativity bias which means the negative in our lives are stickier. It's stickier to our brains than the good. And so what this small 30-second practice does is it helps us.

39:39Megan McGinnis:It opens us up to the good that's in our lives, and it helps us to override that negativity bias. So I would offer that as an exercise to try to bring to the surface the small ways that you do matter.

39:53Michael G. Thompson:Rebecca, given what you've learned about the different ways we all seek to matter, those four categories we talked about earlier, What advice would you give to people who are struggling to feel like they have value right now?

40:04Jenn White:You know, I think that almost everybody is struggling to feel that they matter right now in some way or other. It's not just a matter of this fear of AI that's looming over all of us. But in fact, there is, you know, we talk about the great inequality in our society, income inequality. There's a mattering inequality. And there are certain models of people, of the way they're living their lives, who are set up as they are the people who matter the most. And it turns out to be the very, very wealthy, the very famous, the very powerful, often located in one and the same people, these three. And that leaves out the majority of humans.

40:56Jenn White:And maybe we don't. I know I certainly don't want to be very wealthy, very famous, or very powerful. This is not how I go about trying to attain my mattering. So when there is such a disparity between a sense of mattering, who are the people who matter more, the whole notion of people mattering more. One of your readers had written in that we all matter. To be human is to matter. And that is true in every ethical theory, every philosophical ethical theory. It's a basic that we all matter. We are born with the right to live lives of mattering in whichever way. And there are so many different ways of seeking it.

41:45Jenn White:So this is a deep societal problem. It certainly hits certain people much harder. So when your social relations are deteriorating and when your work just seems meaningless, yes, this is a particular problem. And there are ways to try to contribute to society. But in general, there is a kind of mattering malaise that is hitting all of us.

42:17Michael G. Thompson:Stephen E. Mills, you've got me motivated to revisit all of my principles and grievances from the perspective of mattering. Thank you so much for bringing this concept to light. You now matter to me. Thank you, Stephen. And from Christina, who says, I have struggled with feeling like I matter my entire life. I am the eldest of three, but always felt like the spare child, the one who wasn't good enough or enough, period. I've spent years working on this with counselors. I'm slowly making progress. My work life has been all about being someone who matters to others. My passion writing helps me to matter to myself, knowing I have a talent that many others don't, but I still crave affirmations, still need to know I matter to others.

42:56Michael G. Thompson:I'll definitely be reading this book. Thanks for addressing this topic. So we've been talking about life transitions, and I've been very, very, very, very, very, very fortunate to have a really close circle of friends. There's seven of us who formed this circle of sisterhood. One of them happens to actually be my sister, but I asked one of those friends to tell me how she sees the role of friendships in mattering, especially in challenging times. Here's what my friend Liz had to say.

43:25Megan McGinnis:I have been connected to these ladies for more than 30 years. I met them when I was in undergrad. And over the years, we have weathered every kind of storm you can imagine. Everything from what am I going to major in in undergrad to being wives and mothers and going through divorces and illnesses, being caregivers for our parents. And we also have had to stand side by side and lay parents to rest. when you are part of a group that is so supportive, you always have someone who is reminding you of how valuable you are, how significant you are, that you matter.

44:11Michael G. Thompson:Jennifer, this message actually took me back to a conversation we had about men and friendship. And I'm curious what you're hearing from men about your book. It's interesting that the people who are writing me the most are men, are middle-aged men, are young men in their 20s, are retired men, talking about how mattering gave them a language

44:38Megan McGinnis:to communicate what they were feeling. They mattered and then they didn't matter anymore. I heard so many men, actually empty nester men, who were talking about how they mattered so much to their kids. And now they don't, or they don't matter as much. And so it's been very gratifying to hear that mattering offers a language to put into words what we are all feeling universally.

45:07Michael G. Thompson:We got this email from Quentin in Caledonia, New York. From years at veterinary school, we learned that having a pet was the single strongest predictor of longevity. When my father died, the first thing was to buy my mother a dog. And Gail says, I think dogs are a critical element to life. When you're feeling you're worse and that you don't matter, all you have to do is talk to your dog. I absolutely matter to my dog. Jennifer, in your book, you really focus on human relationships and interactions. But what's one way you'd like to perhaps see our language around mattering change, whether it's about agency or the way we think about what constitutes community, what do you hope shifts?

45:51Megan McGinnis:Well, I hope people do understand that not only do we have agency, but as humans on this earth, we have a responsibility to matter. It could be very hard when we're going through a painful life transition, but there is mattering on the other side of that. we can build that back again. And hearing your friend, Jen, talk about your 30-year relationship, I just thought about how, what decades worth of resilience research finds. And that is our resilience rests on our relationships, on deep nourishing relationships.

46:26Michael G. Thompson:Well, we'll leave the conversation there for now. That's Jennifer Wallace. She's the author of Mattering, The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose. Also with us today, Dr. Rebecca Neuberger-Goldstein, author of The Mattering Instinct, How Our Deepest Longing Drives Us and Divides Us. Thank you to you both. Well, remember, your stories and questions matter to us. We always want you to be a part of the conversations here on 1A, so email us or send a voice memo to 1A at wamu.org. Today's producer was Alexandra Bote. This program comes to you from WAMU, part of American University in Washington, distributed by NPR.

47:06Michael G. Thompson:I'm Jen White. Naila Boodoo will take you through the week's news on the Friday News Roundup. Hope you tune in. Thanks for listening, and we'll talk more soon. This is 1A.

47:34Megan McGinnis:This message comes from NPR sponsor Charles Schwab with its original podcast on investing. Each week, you'll get thoughtful, in-depth analysis of both the stock and the bond markets. Listen today and subscribe at schwab.com slash oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts. This message comes from Rosetta Stone. Rosetta Stone Sapphire combines immersion with the latest technology. Get unlimited access to all 25 Rosetta Stone languages and Sapphire learning tools. Visit rosettastone.com slash NPR and receive 20 % off.