Breaking Tradition with cellist Anastasia Kobekina

0:00Let's be honest. Most people think classical music is just good to relax to. Or play in the background. Or, well, for old people. That's why Anastasia Kobachina may be one of the most important young musicians of our day. Yes, she was a child prodigy. And yes, she's an award-winning cellist who has soloed with some of the world's most prestigious orchestras. Unlike most of the other arts, classical music as an industry seems to be working hard to stay elitist and out of touch with the modern world. But not for long. Anastasia stopped by to tell me what she's doing to make it relevant for a new modern audience.

0:39And how she's doing it may surprise you. She also kindly brought her cello with her to play some tunes from her remarkable new album, Venice. This is a bit of optimism. Anastasia, I can't tell you what a treat it is to sit down with you. I invited you onto the podcast as an act of total selfishness. because I'm a huge fan of yours. And to be able to sit with you with your magical Stradivarius cello is such a treat. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for your invitation. What a treat for me. I'm a huge classical music fan. I grew up listening to it. I have friends who are musicians.

1:22And one of the things that's confounded classical music more than I think most of the other arts is how to keep it alive and keep it fresh for young people. You know, one of the big challenges that, you know, some of the big orchestras have is their subscribers are just dying. Yeah, but on other side, imagine you are turning 65 or 70 or 60. Your kids are already grown up. Where would you go? Rock concert? Maybe classical concert. Yes, yes. It's the place where you would spend your evening. But this is something that I think that you are doing that's actually very important, which is how I discovered you.

2:00I discovered you in a very modern way on the Instagram. And you were playing the third movement of Vivaldi's A minor cello concerto. And you did it differently than it's usually done. You were banging on your cello and you were giving it a youth and a vitality that is uncommon. You don't bang on your cello when you play it. That's not normal. and I posted it, I reposted your clip and the number of people who fell in love with it and then your album came out and I sent that piece to a lot of friends and the number of people who aren't into classical music who fell in love with that piece I think is a gateway drug and so I think you're doing, I don't know if you even realize this if this was your intention but you're opening up classical music to people to appreciate that it can be fun that it's not always serious.

2:58Because classical music is fun, just as any other music. It's just how to find the approach. I think, in a way, in classical music, there is everything what you find in the pop music. There is beautiful melodies, haunting harmonies. All content is there. It's just the form. Sometimes symphony is 40 minutes, concerto. And, you know, there's a lot of certain frames and rules that sometimes make difficult to new public to access it. So I want to talk more. But I think for people who don't know what we're talking about, can you play that movement and have as much fun as you want to have? Well, it's a movement with an orchestra.

3:44I know it's with an orchestra, but we're going to hear the cello part. Oh, it starts.

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4:22Oh, it's such magic. I have to believe that in Vivaldi's time, that was rock and roll. Yeah. Well, we don't know how it was, but the energy of the music, the pulsation, the, yeah, these carrying waves of music, they're almost physical, yeah. Yeah. And it's... Oh, it's the best. It corresponds to us, the humans of today. Yeah. Yeah. When did you start banging on your cello? Because I wanted to play a percussion instrument and it's just, you know, that just came naturally. We were jamming with the orchestra and recording this movement and I didn't know how it would turn out. Because everybody just suddenly we got into this flow of improvisation.

5:08And the violins were adding some thrills over there and suddenly I found myself just doing... And, you know, it was just the music that was inviting us to add more, to get free of the rules of the frame. So how old were you when you started playing cello? I was four. Four? It was a baby cello, and I didn't like to play with a bow. It was too boring. So I was just playing the pizzicato and singing to it. And your dad's a composer, right? So you grew up with music in the house, obviously. And did you want to play an instrument, or did they sort of highly encourage you as a four-year-old to play one?

5:55Well, it was just fun of making music. So you enjoyed it? I enjoyed to sing, to dance, to play a little bit of cello. I didn't practice, you know, repeating the piece until it gets perfect. And then when did you start, how old were you when you started actually realizing that you were good and that you were actually taking it seriously? Maybe at the age of nine or ten. Okay, so still pretty young. Yeah, I think the pieces just got more complicated. So I realized to be, to feeling good on stage, I maybe need to start to practice, first of all, just maybe before the concert, just a little bit, then maybe one day before, two days before, yeah.

6:36Wait, say that again. You only practiced two days before the concert? Yeah, I realized that to be good, I have to maybe start a little bit in advance. Oh, yeah, two days, a little bit, sure, yeah. So, I mean, I think that is fair to say, and I think this has been said of you, that you are a prodigy or you were a prodigy. Because to have that kind of talent that you practice two days before the concert and still pull it off. At the age of 10. At the age of 10. Yeah. I think, you know, there's an inherent raw talent in there that is exciting and rare. I think it's a lot of environment and the support of parents of course what the others see in you as a child and then you of course focus on this and you see that you can be different you can get more love also with playing cello all little humans are of course seeking for the love and attention And cello was also my tool of getting this.

7:41Be different. And I had fun. It was not hard work for me. So you're from Russia. Yeah. You live now in Germany. Yeah, about 12 years. 12 years in Germany. And you live a life as a solo musician, a soloist, which means that you perform as a guest usually. You're not in an orchestra. You don't have a regular day job in an orchestra. It's a hard... I mean, what I know of that life, it's a hard life. You're on the road a lot, right? Because you play by invitation. Yeah. And the invitations come from all over the place. And then you'll play for, what, three or four days? You probably go a little earlier to rehearse.

8:17Yeah, there is one day of rehearsal and usually next day there is a concert. Of course, because I remember you don't need more than a day or two before. Stay just like this. So you come for a day before for rehearsal. Obviously, if it's a difficult piece, you'll do some work before. And then you have the performance, which is between one or three performances. Something like this, yeah. And then you leave. Yeah. That's a very short encounter. You have to find the chemistry between 80 musicians in the orchestra and the conductor. You have to find the way of approaching this piece because, of course, we studied, everyone studied this at home.

8:52Yeah. And then we meet, we have the scores, and there is a conductor, and you have to find this common language. But it's the lifestyle that I'm interested in because the only other profession that has that lifestyle are comedians. where your career requires you to just be on the road all the time. How does that affect you? How does that affect your energy, your social life, your ability to maintain friendships, relationships? You know, just like the desire to play music and the lifestyle that is required to play music, to perform at least. They don't seem insimpatico. One is about being present and the other one is being on the road in airports and trains.

9:34Just tell me a little bit about sort of the life that you live. I don't think people appreciate how difficult it is to be a soloist in classical music. Yeah, probably when you're doing this every day, you're not very much looking at this from a side. And yeah, I think the everyday challenge is, for me, is this preparation to the concert. You know, I want to be in my best at the concert moment. When I come to the public, I want to feel my strengths. I want to feel the desire of being open and sharing the music. But sometimes I just wake up and I feel introvert and don't feel like leaving my bed.

10:18And also psychologically preparing myself for the concert because every time it's never the same. I have, of course, my doubts and weaknesses that I know I have. But in the moment of the concert, when I perform for the public, I have to feel just so open, you know, just feeling the light that is going from my chest, this desire of sharing all these emotions that are in the music. It's like one way from one concert to another, the preparation. There is certain point that I'm approaching and I feel how I approach with it, you know, how I get anxiety or how I get my heart beating faster towards the concert, how I feel today about standing there, vulnerable, open, desiring for this connection, desiring for communication with the people because often people think that being in a concert, it's a passive thing.

11:25Not at all. I can exactly tell how people are listening to me. It's like telling a story to someone. You can tell how the other one is listening. Maybe every third word or half a year or is it really intensively somebody goes with you. I always desire for this connection and the people in every place are so different. You're 29, right? Yeah. You're young in your career. You've got a long career ahead of you and so you have the energy to do it but and i can relate to what you're talking about you know when when i started speaking a lot i can always tell as you said i can give the same speech over and over and over again like you can play the same piece over and over again but it's different every time because it's the audience and that's true actors talk about the audience you know how you how do you do a broadway show the same time the same thing every day eight days a week eight times a week and it's it's the audience and the desire to connect and bring my message and be fully present with the audience and the there was excitement leading up but then i always remember coming home it's just like oh and i just want to stay home and i never wanted to leave my house because i was out all the time that being home was magical but the difference is i think the last thing i wanted to do was speak when i was at home the last thing i wanted to do was have you know where you do you play for yourself by yourself sometimes less less but less yeah Of course, I have certain deadlines, the pieces that I have to, like an athlete, you know, build the strengths, build the muscles for this certain performance.

13:01And I have to, of course, catch up. It's different pieces of music, so I look how I prepare them over the next months. Yeah, and get them in your fingers. Yeah. Let's play a little more music. Is that okay? Yeah. I'm going to choose another piece from your album because I love it. It's another short one, the Canto della Buranella. Canto della... Yeah. So this is... How old is this piece? It's from the movie Casanova. Oh. So it's new. Yeah. Oh. But since it's for two celli, you know, for two instruments. I know, you have to pick the one. And I have made a little version when I sing and accompany it to me, like it was at the very beginning when I was a kid.

13:45wonderful

14:29So good. Just a little Vinician song. the thing that is unusual about your album as a classical music album is it's rare to have one movement on an album usually it's a whole piece a whole piece so classical music a symphony usually has four movements a concerto usually has three movements is that right? usually, not always and the three movements one is fast, one is slow, one is something else and you don't necessarily like all the movements, but they always make sure you have all the movements on the album. You didn't do that. Like that Vivaldi, for example, you didn't put the whole piece. You put one movement.

15:14What was your thinking to be so selective and not push out, you know, this? I just took the best, what I thought was the best. Because, you know, in classical music, this is what I was saying about the old mentality. It's sacrilege. It's considered a sin to break a piece, you know, To only play one movement and not the whole piece. But at the times of Beethoven, for example, they had the separate pieces. Or for example, Chopin, he never performed his piano and cello sonata as an entire piece. He chose the second and third movement as his favorites. And you see it from the programs, there was just movement, separate movements.

15:54I didn't know that. So it's actually their old tradition, which is now seen a bit like, oh, this is not, no, no. we play the whole the entire thing we play the whole piece but this is why I think you're important and going right back to the beginning of our conversation which is I think you're very very important for classical music because I think you're coming at it from a young person's point of view you're bringing Instagram I learned about you on Instagram you know you're bringing social media you're changing the pieces to make them suit your mood you're banging on your cello you're singing along you're putting one movement on an album because you like that movement better you know And I think what you're allowing new audiences to classical music, what you're showing them is you don't have to be a snob.

16:39You don't have to like it all. But if the musician herself says, no, I'm putting this one movement on my album because that's the one I like, then why do I have to listen to the whole piece? I can just go listen to the one movement that I like. And I think you're making music accessible. I really think what you're doing is probably bigger than you realize. Indeed. I never thought about this. I was just doing what I felt was fun for me. What you said about the album, it's like a playlist. You put these things that you like. And I took this album as a playlist also to create something, a little Venetian portrait of music that I thought was presenting it.

17:24That's genius. That's exactly what you're doing. In a playlist society where we don't even buy albums, we buy songs we don't even buy music we stream it yeah and we make playlists of a piece here a piece there we break things up we mix genres and we we are a playlist society we're not an album society anymore and classical music is still stuck in an album mentality when i go to the symphony they play the first symphony then they play the next symphony after the intermission and i have to listen to two albums but i i don't even know i've ever been to a concert where it's just a movement here and a movement there unless it's you know a pops concert or something and i think what you're doing is is is so important which is you're bringing you're modernizing the way we listen to music and as you said this is how they used to do it anyway it's a playlist mentality for a playlist world ah brilliant we just found a new term yes where do you go when you play uh it's the one thing that i've always loved about great musicians when you see a soloist there's something about a soloist or a great musician where and this is you could say this is a rock and roll as well or pop music where they get completely lost in their music when they start playing they go somewhere they're not just playing they're not watching their fingers they're not watching the bow I mean you you close your eyes and I lose you while you're with your cello do you know where you go or do you just become like what what happens when when you start playing I think it's like with other activities in life it's catching the flow when you're in this moment of presence you're just in the now and not in the past or in the future you're in this precious moment of now because this is the only way of making music I play the music that is written already but I improvise because I can shape something in so many different ways.

19:20And like saying one phrase, like saying one phrase. Like with a text, you have so many things. And for example, the first, especially with music of Bach, it's really eternal and you can play it in millions of variations. For example, the first prelude, which is probably the most famous cello piece.

20:03And I can play it completely different. I can play it...

20:24Or some other, shaping it differently, you know. That's what is beautiful about the music, about these timeless pieces, You can always find reflection of your today's feeling of your life situation in the music that you play. And you connect to your emotional world. And this is also the beauty of music, beauty of listening music or making music, because you connect to your emotions. And this, I think, is a very necessary thing. Are you better at telling us your emotions when you play cello or are you good at it with your words? Like if you're trying to express anger or frustration or love to someone, are you good with your words or is it better that you pick up your cello and know how you feel?

21:14Probably I'm more clear with the cello, yeah, because the words are always tricky, you know. You can always hide your intentions with that. So what is a Bach prelude when you're angry? Well, it's hard to shape probably the first brilliance with everyone. Of course. It's luscious. It's so peaceful. It's so... Of course. You find the music that fits the mood. Yeah. Of course. Of course. Oh, Shostakovich. It's always...

22:11Yeah, Shostakovich is the best release, the energy. I think what you're capturing here is, you know, it's always been a pet peeve of mine when I say to people, oh, I love classical music. And they say to me, oh, I love classical music too. It's so relaxing. And I was like, no, like, no. Oh, like, yes, some of it is relaxing. Some of it is lovely. But the stuff that I love, the stuff that I love, I don't like pretty music. And this is what I think is so magical about classical music, which is it's so broad. And there's so much there. There's stuff that's easy to listen to. There's stuff that's difficult to listen to.

22:46There's stuff that you can put in the background because it's just pleasant. Like, pachabel, blech. Major key. and there's stuff that literally you have to concentrate because it's really hard Shostakovich is hard to listen to if you're just learning classical music for the first time you don't start with Shostakovich it's too hard, you start with Mozart but at some point you get rewarded and I love taking friends to the symphony for the first time and I always tell them you don't have to like every piece you don't have to like every movement I love the Beatles, I don't love every piece on every album you find the things you like and it's like going to an art museum You don't have to like every piece of art in the art museum.

23:23Find the piece you like and say, I like that one. And then find out who made it. And then go look at more of their work. And then find out who is making work at the same time and go look at... It's the same with music. Absolutely. It's an exploration. Exploration to find what is reflecting in you, what is awoken your memories, your emotions, how this music corresponds with you. Classical music is a bit behind some... The other arts. Yeah, the other arts. And there is a lot less experimentation on a big stage. Yeah. Because maybe classical music is a definition of tradition. And there are some good things about traditions.

24:05But there are also, I think this is the good balance of... There needs to be a good balance between mixing the tradition with a new race, new approach, new ways of presenting it to our modern times. I think you said it best, which is before we turned on the microphones, before we went live, we were talking about your cello. And your cello was, remind me again, the year it was built? 1698. So the cello was made in 1698 by Antonio Stradivarius, and it is a beautiful, beautiful cello. And Stradivariuses have great reputations for their sound. They just sound, you know, musicians will tell you, we don't know what it is, they just sound better.

24:46And what we were talking about before the microphones went on is that you said that modern instrument making is so good that if you close your eyes, it would be very hard to tell the difference between a modern cello that was made last week and a Strad. But you said something about why you keep playing an old instrument that I thought was magical. Yeah, it's... Piece of art, piece of history that is carrying it so much and this ability of interacting with it every day and to share it with so many people. You said to me you were playing history. And I fell in love with that. I'm playing history.

25:28I mean, can you imagine the number of people who have played on this instrument in hundreds of years? And will be playing. And will be playing it on hundreds of years after you. Yeah. You know, good ones and bad ones. And you're playing a piece of history. it's not just the sound it's what it represents which i think is magical but you said it right which is and we have to update it you're banging on a strad you know as well you should you've been so gracious to play a few things that i've asked um what do you what like when i write books i don't have any desire to write unless i completely obsess about an idea and when i'm obsessed it's all i want to talk about it's all i want to think about it's all i want to read about then i was like oh i'm probably going to write about this at some point do you obsess about a piece do you become because i can become obsessed about a piece like i've listened to your your vivaldi the third movement i cannot tell you how many times i've listened to it on over and over and over and repeat and like i'll go a week and that's the only thing i'm listening to over and over and over again it's obsessive because it's so good and you're and by the way i went and listened to other versions yours is the best it's so good right it's improvised it's so good whatever It's so good.

26:39Do you also become obsessed with a piece or a phrase that you just can't? Yeah, of course. Something that is, I think it's very much about how I feel in this moment. Because we find that, how to say, like a music track of the life, you know, of a certain period of life that is just fitting the best. What are you obsessed with right now? What's the piece that you, whether you're performing it or not, whether you're recording it or not, it's the piece right now that you, when you pick up your cello and you're just sort of getting ready and you're warming up your fingers, it's just the piece that you, you kind of...

27:24What's the piece that is stuck in your head right now? Maybe you don't have one, but I'm so curious what's stuck in your head right now. It's also the piece with a bit of singing by contemporary composer Petris Vasques.

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28:30Oh, oh, oh.

28:59Ooh.

29:21Wow. That is hauntingly beautiful. In the different acoustics, it sounds so different. in the church. I just played another concert two days ago in the church and I played it and it gave me goosebumps. Wow. I hope you record that. It's really good. One day. Can you tell me a story from your life? Something you were part of, something you did. it doesn't matter if it was commercially successful or not but something you did that you loved being a part of it and if everything in your life was like this one thing you'd be the happiest person alive