How to Say the Hard Thing and Keep the Relationship | A Bit of Optimism: Feelings at Work | PART 5

22:05Because now we can both win. That's so good. That is such a great framework. To just admit to ourselves that this one instance, this one tension, all I see is a monster, and I forget everything else that preceded it. And just to recognize that this person isn't a monster, it's just something that happened. They're advocating for themselves, they're doing something in their self-interest, which is fine, whether they did it right or wrong is irrelevant and just recognizing that even that's a relief yeah that's good keep going normally when we're in a conflict situation we look at the person who's like doing something wrong and we locate the problem in them like you are the problem this way that you are yeah we find a character flaw they clearly don't have a capacity for dot dot dot yeah and we really believe that i even just said it to you in in recounting my experience like they have no capacity for listening yeah they don't know how to hold space they're always rational i literally just did it and we believe it because we've been accumulating the proof points i've completely assessed their entire character based on one tension i'm sitting in yeah and so the core perspective is like you are the problem and i am not the problem and so what happens is it's you versus me you're the problem i'm not so when we think about conflict as a team sport what i try to remind myself of is instead of having the problem be in you it's like okay how about you shift to the side of the table that i'm on we're both facing the problem together of like what is the situation that we're like we our intention that is the problem yeah there's something that's going on between us that we both don't fully understand that we can try to understand together yeah and it's it's so beautiful the image that always comes to me is like a river and there's this kind of flow through the river and when we don't bring things up it's like we're putting all these rocks in the water can't flow and we're just like sitting in that every single day and so when we can understand each other and we can remove some of the blocks things can naturally flow and we're doing that at work all the time.

23:52And we build narratives about each other. You know, teams build narratives about their colleagues. We build narratives about our bosses. We build narratives about our employees. Like, we're constantly building narratives and labeling people based on one or two experiences, finding information. And then the problem is, is we perpetuate those narratives. Oh, the lazy one. Yeah. Oh, the stupid one. Yeah. Oh, the angry one. And we triangulate with other people. I think this is another thing that happens a lot. It's like, triangulating is like, oh, there's something that's going on between you and me.

24:17But when we're in a meeting, you, me, and our other coworker, I'm side texting our other co-worker like, oh, can you believe Simon's doing this? Ugh, classic again. And so then we're building narratives. So we're not just accumulating these resentments and building these stories in ourselves, but we're looking to other people to confirm them. Because the more other people I can get on my side, oh yeah, he's the problem. And now what that is, is gossip. And gossip is one of the most destructive things inside a company. I know a company, they considered gossip a fireable offense. And they said, if you have attention, you have to learn to lean into it with somebody.

24:46And don't say anything behind somebody's back that you wouldn't say to their face. And this is different from venting about work and venting like, oh, you know, blah, blah, blah, I was an idiot today. Like, that's fine because it's labeling a behavior that was today. It's not assessing their character. You know, venting about work is healthy, but gossiping about people. We did a thing at work where I recognized that we were building narratives about each other. And I realized it had to stop. What I implemented was I said, okay, here's the rule. I've noticed we've done it at the leadership level.

25:12I'm sure it's happening at every other level. This stops today, which is if somebody says something that assesses somebody's character, They're lazy. They're stupid. They're an asshole, whatever it is, right? I need anybody who's in that conversation to interrupt and say, that may be true. They may be lazy. Or they're tired. They're overworked. They're overwhelmed. And simply acknowledging that there are other possibilities that are creating that behavior makes everybody go, oh yeah. And that technique not only has dramatically improved our culture, but I just think it's just a healthier way of being that we're all taking responsibility for our colleagues and each other and a healthy place to come to work.

25:48So that's been very, very helpful. Because like once one of those narratives gets planted and mutually agreed upon by everyone, it's so hard to unsealt that. And that person is now playing defense for the rest of their job until they get forced out or quit. Yeah. And everyone loses. It sucks for everyone. It's a lose-lose. Yeah. Okay. So the first element of the difficult conversation is the mindset, which is it's me and you versus the problem. and I recognize that you're not a monster. This is one thing that has happened, maybe more or two, but the point is this is not everything about who you are.

26:21There's a conflict that exists with us, not necessarily between us, but it's on a table. Okay, so one is mindset. What happens next? Okay, the next thing is figuring out when is the right time to bring something up. And I think that there are kind of two extremes here. There are people who bring something up while the iron is hot and then they're not able to actually listen and engage. You're really inflamed, you're angry, you're dysregulated. that is not going to be the situation in which you're going to be able to have the most productive conflict. You're not going to be able to be like, huh, conflict is a team sport for mutual understanding.

26:48What an excellent opportunity for me to understand this person who is also a monster. So I think you don't want it to be in the heat of the moment necessarily. And then on the other end of the spectrum, there are people who wait way too long. And so they wait until the heat of the moment passes. But then they're like, well, it's not that important to bring up right now. Okay, well, now it's been too long. And so they wait too long and they sweep it under the rug. Or they bring it up and create a tension that actually, because it's still festering in their mind. But in reality, it's actually dissipated to some degree.

27:15So now you're actually taking the spark and actually pouring gasoline on it and making a fire. So I think it depends on where you naturally are. Like some people don't wait enough time and some people wait too much time. So the point is middle. In the middle, yeah. But just don't do it in the heat of the moment. Don't wait too long. Do it somewhere in between. So for me, I try to wait until it's no longer dysregulating my system. So you're no longer angry or rather you won't show up hot. Yeah, I won't show up hot and it's still alive. It's still relevant. I've had a little bit of distance from it.

27:43I think the key is in that period of pause is to express that I'm taking a period of pause because I care for maintaining something. You need to get yourself to the right place so that you can have this difficult conversation constructively because you can have it destructively too. It's not just taking the time that you need, but it's also communicating that you're doing it because you want to set everyone up for the conditions for it to go as well as possible. So it's like, okay, in this moment, I don't feel like I can listen to you. And I really want to be able to do that. Like sometimes let's say someone's like, Hey, can you talk?

28:13And you're doing your thing where you're waiting to calm down, but you don't respond. I don't think that's that cool. That's the passive aggressive. Yeah. And so I would say, yes, I want to talk. Right now, I feel like I'm too activated to be able to have this conversation in a way that I would want to. Can we do that in a couple days? Yeah. So mindset, timing. Mindset, timing. Another thing that I like to do is come back to my intention for the conflict. Like I'm looking to feel heard. I'm looking for resolution. I'm looking for action. I'm looking. Yeah, it's like, hey, I know that we both care about this thing.

28:40I want to figure out a way to communicate about it so that we can get to this place that we want to both be in. So it's both coming back to my intention and maybe to our shared intention. And setting a goal, right? So knowing the reason you're going in. Otherwise, you're just coming in with the emotion. Yeah. And there's no destination set for the path you're about to journey on. Exactly. And the thing that I think works really brilliantly about this is that it actually does two things. First of all, it knocks me out of the normal culture of like, I want to win. I want to show why I'm right. Cause that's like not actually our highest intention a lot of the time.

29:07It's more like our knee jerk reaction. And so I like to first remind myself of what my actual goal is for this thing. And that changes the frame. So that's the first thing that it does. And then the second thing is that I not only align with myself, but also start the conversation by naming it out loud, which creates an accountability of like, Hey, let's do this thing that's bigger than either one of us is. It like reminds us that we have a shared mission. And then also if I can feel myself slipping into like, well, you're wrong for this reason and I'm justifying myself and this and that, then I can remind myself that I want to.

29:39I want to get to the goal. Mindset, timing, setting a goal. Can I, here's something I do. Yeah, tell me. I make a request for grace. And I've done this before professionally, personally, I need to have a difficult conversation. So I alert somebody about what's about to happen, because what I've learned is otherwise you come in hot. And even if you aren't, that's how it's received. And you get very defensive responses. And so by preparing somebody that this is not going to be fun, there's a beat that they can take a breath. And I ask permission because, you know, we talk about timing. Like the timing might be great for me.

30:09But it might not be great for them. So I need to have a difficult conversation. Can we have it now? And they might go, yeah. Or they go, can we do it in an hour? I'd be like, yeah, we can do it in an hour. I regulate the timing. So I ask permission. I alert what is about to happen. And so in other words, I'm setting their mindset. And I'm making sure the timing works for them too. Because I also want them to show up their best self. Maybe they're tired. Maybe they're dysregulated. Maybe they're pissed off. Maybe they're still angry at me. Simon, I'm still angry at you. I can't do this right now.

30:38Okay. So I need to have a difficult conversation with you. Is now a good time? Yes, it is. And this is why I ask for grace. I say, listen, I know I have to have this conversation with you. I also would rather not. Like it's so much easier for me not to do this right now. For the good of the relationship, I want to see you thrive here. I want to see you do well and I want to be supportive of you. I have to have this conversation with you. I'm going to get some things wrong. I'm going to say some things badly and just work with me. I'm trying. And by asking for grace up front, what I've learned is the times that I haven't asked for grace, if I do accidentally misframe something, say something unclearly, say something wrong, they will latch onto it and now I'm playing defense I'm like well that's not what I meant they're like well then why are you telling me this and so it actually goes sideways and by asking for grace up front when I get something wrong and it and they hone in on it or triggers them I can back off I can be like that I got wrong I'm sorry that was the wrong thing to say I take that back yeah and they go okay because they gave me permission at the beginning and if they forget I'd be like you you remember I said I'm gonna get something's wrong please you know and so I help them get on the right mindset with me.

31:50I check in on their timing. I ask for grace because it is complicated and difficult and I'm not an expert, but I need to do this. And I found that that framing has been immensely helpful. I really love that. I mean, for me, it sounds like you're creating a sense of togetherness of like, we have to have this hard conversation and I'm a human being and I'm gonna try my best. By the way, I'd rather not have this. Like it is so much easier for me not to do this. I can just ignore it. That would be the better option for me. but I'm doing this because I actually really care. And I'm willing to take the short-term discomfort.

32:22Over the long-term discomfort. I'd rather have a lot of discomfort now rather than the slow drip of discomfort for a long period of time. Which is the opposite of what we normally do. Which is because that's actually more cancerous than what we're going to deal with now. Okay, can I share kind of a crazy one? Yeah. But it's my favorite one. I think I've told you, but I spent a few months in a Buddhist monastery in France. They have a lot around. Do you speak French? No, it's mostly in English and in Vietnamese. Okay. Which I also don't speak. Was there wine? That's all that matters. Absolutely not.

32:49What? And it's in Bordeaux. Come on. No wine. What a waste. It's a monastery. I mean, they're French monks, though. French monks drink. No, they're Vietnamese. And monks don't drink. I mean, what a tease to do it in Bordeaux. I know. Anyway, they have so much that they talk about, about conflicts and having hard conversations. It's amazing. My favorite trick of all, it has a kind of insane name, but I'm going to tell it to you because I think it's more likely to stick in your head. But it sounds floofy. But basically, one of their most magic tricks is called watering someone's flowers, which is a very simple but powerful act of telling someone nice things about them.

33:25Sounds so simple. But again, when I'm in the tunnel vision of conflict, it's often impossible for me to think of a good thing about someone. Because there's nothing good. There's nothing good about that. Clearly. Yeah. I like your hair. Okay, that's actually a great example. So, for example, right after I got back, I was in a conflict with my best friend. I have a best friend. She is my soulmate. I think she is the greatest person on the planet. I love truly everything about her. And at the time, this was our biggest fight that we've ever gotten in. And we were in the thick of it. And she was like, Alex, surely you have some tools that we could try to use in this moment.

33:56Like, don't you teach this stuff? I said, okay, let's water each other's flowers. And I explained what it was. The very simple act of saying nice things back and forth to each other. And she said, okay, let's try it. You start. And I was like, Jesus. I like your hair. And I looked at her. Truly my favorite person on the planet. and I could not think of a single nice thing to say. Oh my goodness. And I was looking at her for an embarrassingly long amount of time and she knew that I couldn't think of anything. And I was looking at her, looking at her, until I eked one out. But it was like such a small, nice thing.

34:28And it was like more fact-based than anything. Nice pants. Yeah, that kind of thing. Like I like this, whatever it was. Those are great shoes. Totally. But I said it. And then it was her turn. And she also kind of struggled. and she said one that was like also a little too small but it was also a little bit nice and it softened me a little bit and then it was a little bit easier and you're like they are good shoes you're right i do have good hair and then i said another one back to her and it was a little bit bigger a little bit more meaningful and i could feel that she was softening a little bit and then she said one back to me we went back and forth and then it became more substantive and maybe it took like six minutes and our whole conversation was different and where we were once kind of like steeled up against each other, like you versus me, you're evil and wrong and I'm right and morally justified, all of a sudden the armor could soften.

35:22So here's what I'm hearing, right? And this is really important. So we've talked about mindset, timing. We've talked about having a goal, stating that goal or not, but having a goal, asking for grace. And what I like here is about affirming the other person because conflict is hard. And for some, having leaning into a conversation may be simply fact-based. Like, here's your performance, here are the numbers. And for some, it might be laced with shame and childhood, you know, an aggressive parent who cared only about grades and how people receive information and how people intend the information are not the same thing.

35:55I actually do like the phrase, and I don't like froofy stuff, but I do like watering someone's flowers. I think that is actually a beautiful metaphor to lean over someone's windowsill, you know? Just giving them some affirmation that I think affirms not only that you recognize their value, and I've made this mistake without doing that because I'm like, let's deal with the issue. Without doing that, it does make them feel undervalued, especially if there has been tension. Now this difficult conversation is affirming that I don't value them. And so giving them some affirmation about their talents, their gifts, their contributions to the team and people love working with them is a good level set.

36:31Yeah, and then it allows people to hear the things that are harder. Because they recognize that you don't think I'm a dumbass. Yeah, and I think you're thinking about it in terms of one of the impacts of it, which is how does the other person feel when you water their flowers? And for me, what I've also found, maybe even more shocking, is how it changes my perspective. All of a sudden, instead of only seeing this one piece of the puzzle, I'm able to see the whole tapestry of all the other things that are actually going right. And often when we're having a hard conversation, we're only fixated on the ways in which things are going wrong.

36:57I want to say one more thing about watering flowers is because there's so many different ways to do it. I really love to start my hard conversations with it because I think it just starts us off in a different place. What do I appreciate? What's working well? What do I want to see more of? And just like you said, validating the person as a whole human being, which creates the ability to be listening and to be engaging and to be collaborative and to be creative throughout the rest of the hard conversation. I find that it works really well. So sometimes I'll start it off. And then sometimes I'll also keep it in my back pocket.

37:23If there are these moments where we feel like things are becoming adversarial, I'll either say, hey, can we pause and try something else right now? Or I'll even just spontaneously say a nice thing about someone. Like you don't need to to tango. So I think oftentimes with hard conversations, people are like, well, what if the person I'm having a hard conversation with isn't like this? And the way that I think about it is like you can lead the conversation in the way that you want it to be led. And so if you want it to be led in a way that validates the other person's humanity and creates a possibility for something other than just the things that are going wrong in the dynamic, then you can say that.

37:53Like you can kind of spontaneously be like, okay, well, I also just want to honor that these are the other things that I appreciate about you. Let me throw a wrench in the works here. Throw a wrench. I hate feedback sandwiches. I despise them. Tell me something generic and bullshitty positive, something really specific and hurtful and negative, and then something generic and bullshitty and positive again, because that's what somebody taught you to give a feedback sandwich. And I find it pandering when in a difficult conversation, somebody starts watering my flowers and I can sense it's some technique they've learned or some bullshit they're trying to say to me to make me feel good in this moment, I actually find it very distracting.

38:32And I think it has to be genuine. Because they say, well, Simon, you know, you're a good listener. I'm like, signifying nothing. In this moment, we're talking about this. So thanks for the compliment, not interested. Like that would probably be my response. You know, I find it pandering. And so if you're going to pay me a compliment, it has to be relevant to the conflict. It has to be relevant to the difficult conversation. It has to be also real. It has to be real. It's not a tactical thing. It's not a box that you have to check. It's not a tactical thing. That's also how I feel about the feedback sandwich.

39:07It's like normally it's just a box you have to check to get to the actual thing that you want to say. Whereas this is like you're saying something real that wouldn't normally fit into your perspective in this moment. I'll give you an example how it could work with me, right? Simon, one of the things I admire about you is that you talk about grace. I think you're good at grace. And so because you are good at grace, my ask is, will you make sure to give me grace in this because I know you're good at it? So I'm like, thank you very much. That would be a relevant and good use of watering my flowers because it's relevant to what we're engaged in.

39:41And it's authentic. And it's authentic. And people can feel your truth. We think that we can kind of do the theatrics of things and that it'll work. It'll work if you're doing it authentically. And then that's how it will work. If you're performing it, it won't do anything. And I have one more thing to add to our checklist, which is at any point in a difficult conversation, and you've talked about this a few times, you're allowed to interrupt and reset and say, this is not going well. This is not going as I planned or as I intended. Can we interrupt and just take a step back? And then you can refer to some of your other techniques which is, is now the wrong time?

40:14Or can I just tell you what I'm intending to get out of this? Or like, let me just tell you something that I think is wonderful about you before we go too off the rails here, right? Because it's getting heated and I just want you to know. So you can interrupt and reset at any point and go back to any of the other things and sometimes even start again. Like that works too. I love that. I call it breaking the fourth wall of like when sometimes you're in the theatrics of it and you just need to pause the scene. And so I will often ask to pause and be like, wait, can we stop for one second? I feel like we're going in this direction that doesn't feel like it's going to be productive for either one of us.

40:46I'll also personally ask for like a take back. I'll be like, I just said this, but actually I don't mean it. Can I please take it back? And because you asked for grace up front, you're good to go. Or I just said this, but it's actually not totally accurate. I misspoke. And that's the opposite of what we normally do. Normally, when we say something we don't mean, for some reason, we dig our heels in. We double down. We double down. Because we'd rather not be wrong than take it back. Yeah. I try my best to drop the ego part of me that wants to fight and win. And also, this also works in reverse, right?

41:15Sometimes, I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but you're in a hard conversation with someone and someone says something and you know they didn't mean that thing, but it kind of proves your point. yeah so you double down on it but you both know that that's not what they meant but that's also about winning and like you versus me and not hey i want to understand you and like let's face the problem together and so breaking the fourth wall is something that i try to do anytime even if i notice something that will block me like for example for me something that often comes up is i have the desire for my pain to be recognized first i want them to tell me that they'd mess something up yeah before i'm willing to also admit that i've messed something i'm like that yeah like I want my pain to be admitted first.

41:52So if I notice that's coming up, I'll say it out loud. I'll be like, I'm noticing right now that I want you to tell me that you messed up and to apologize first before I'm willing to apologize. Even though I also, I'm sorry. Oh, I don't do that. I don't do that one. Yeah. No, no, no. I misspoke. I misspoke. That's not what I meant. And I'd like to, I'd like to take back that I said that I do that too. Cause I don't. Yeah. But like, if there's something that I noticed is going to block me, I try to name it as soon as possible. That's so good. So it doesn't block me. So it doesn't get in my way.

42:19I'm like constantly trying to call myself out. And this is also the danger of what we're teaching here, right? Which is everything we're teaching here, all of the techniques in all of these episodes. And there is an element of performative and practice and intellectualizing what should be emotional and human experiences because you're learning. And that's okay. if you never get past that, where it doesn't become innate and natural, and you move past the checklist performative, because you get good at it, right? Nobody thinks about pedaling when you get on a bicycle anymore. And so I think we have to give grace that if you're trying these techniques out for the first time, it will be hyper intellectualized.

42:59It will feel like a checklist. We're even giving it as a checklist, mindset, timing, like we're actually making it a checklist. And that's okay. And if you keep practicing at some point, like riding a bicycle, you'll just get on your bike and ride. So give yourself grace if this is a new thing for you. And if you bumble and fumble it and forget some of the techniques, it's okay. But the most important thing is you practice, you do it. You do it because you want to be good at having difficult conversations, not because, oh, this is part of my job. I'm now a middle management. I have to have this, damn this.

43:29Like you're not doing it because it's some sort of like job requirement, but rather you really want to learn this technique because it makes you the leader you want to be and it's good for you and it's good for the people on the receiving end. I agree. And I think if people can feel that you're trying your best, even if you don't get it right, even if you're not perfect at it, they can still feel you doing it. And so I think that's the most important thing to remember is like all of these techniques are just scaffolding to help you connect and understand and build that trust. And I think that's the perfect way to summarize and conclude what we're talking about, which is though we're making the sound scientific and there is science and technique behind it.

44:07At the end of the day, human beings are messy. Human relationships are messy. Difficult conversations are messy. This process is messy. No two will ever go the same. Just because you nailed it in one doesn't mean it's going to go well in the next time because there's another person involved. And the way you describe these things more as scaffolding. They're there to help prop up what you're attempting to do, but it has to stand on its own two legs. Like these are here to support you because that's what scaffolding is. I would say I'm consistently humbled by how hard conversations are, which is such an obvious thing to say, but I've spent so many years of my life studying these things.

44:42And you still screwed up. And I screwed up all the time. I think humbling is the perfect word for it. The gap between what I know that I could be doing versus what I'm able to do in the heat of the moment when the stakes are high. It's so big. And so I'm just reminding myself that I'm on a continuous journey to become the person who can have these hard conversations with more fluidity and more heart and more compassion and more ability to understand like they're muscles that I built. And so I offer myself not only grace in the heat of the moment, but also just like over the long term horizon of this is so hard.

45:13Yeah. And it can be a little bit easier. And so where we're concluding is you study this and teach this and you're still learning. Oh my God, I have such a long way to go. It's crazy. Alex, we've had a very difficult conversation about difficult conversations. This has been really, really good. I think it's been fun. It's really good. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. Lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsynic.com. Thanks for listening.

45:49Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.