More Thinking About Thinking with Brené Brown and Adam Grant: Part Two

0:02What you're about to listen to is part two of a two-part series of a conversation I had with Brene Brown and Adam Grant. It will be interesting to listen to, but I recommend you go listen to the first part first, because we make all kinds of references to that first part. I hope you enjoy part two of my conversation with Brene Brown and Adam Grant. This is a bit of optimism. People are so shocked by their own values. And people want to be people don't want them. They want to orphan. Give an example of that. Give an example. They want to orphan them. Give an example. I'm learning this value about my worldview.

0:46I'm okay with it. Okay. So what we do is we have a list and there's like, I don't know, 150 things on there. We just reverse engineering. So we started, this was the research that started like 15, 18 years ago, where we found that some of the most transformational leaders really had two values. They didn't have 20. They had two. And they had a lot of things were important to them, but there were really one or two where everything else was forged. And so they circle 15 or 20 and they're like, we're not limiting it. We're not limiting it. And I said, which two here are essential to you getting out of bed, to you functioning?

1:25And this is where they get super irate because they, the majority of them do not want to take family out. and so like my two my two values are courage and and faith right and and i've really struggled for many years about curiosity as a value but what i realize is that i'm my bravest when i'm curious and so that curiosity for me requires a lot of courage and so we do this exercise so they come up with these two and then they operationalize them into behaviors then they have to find indicator warning lights for misalignment from these. When have they stepped out of them? What do they feel in their bodies?

2:11When did they live into them? What did they feel in their bodies? And people are just really frustrated because when you know your values and you understand what, and I don't think they mean anything. I feel the same way about corporate values. If they're not operationalized into observable behaviors, they mean they're just bullshit to me. Just writing on the wall. Right. Yeah. And so once they see these values operationalized into behaviors, they go through like a Kubler-Ross grief thing where they're like, wow, have I been an asshole because I'm living outside of my values around this issue?

2:51Oh, it's so good. And I'm like, I don't know. What do you think? And they're like, yeah, I'm completely misaligned. Every indicator on the dashboard is going off, but I keep showing up the same way. This is so good. And it goes back to the old thing, like we don't learn anything when things go right. We learn things when things go wrong, right? Oh, for sure. It's like all the metaphors. You can't judge a crew by how the ship performs in calm waters. You can only judge a crew by how a ship performs in rough waters, blah, blah, blah. It's the same thing here, which is things going wrong reveals.

3:24And I love this exercise of going through not when I nailed it, but when I got angry or frustrated. And the anger one is particularly interesting because I'm not a very angry person, but when I get angry, it hurts. When I hear your story about – it reminds me of Stephen Covey. Was this book written like 30 years ago, Seven Habits? I don't even remember. But like the guy who takes up two parking places or the person who's shitty on the train. And I remember that story he tells about being on the train and someone saying, wow, your kids are really out of control here. And the guy kind of looked at the guy who was being critical and said, I'm sorry, we're on the way home from the hospital.

4:15My wife died a couple of hours ago, and I think my kids just don't even know how to show up right now. And it just reminds me so much of being in my values when people are not behaving as I need them to behave. I'm just struck. Brene, at first, I thought you were going to tell us a story about people wanting to change their values once they discover they don't like them. And it's quite the opposite, right? That people are discovering their behaviors are not in line with their values. Yes, that's exactly right. That's the variable that moves. And one of the most amazing processes that we use with teams is we have everyone write their name on a big post-it, like one of the 11 by 17 post-its, write their name, write their two values.

5:05And then everyone on the team fills out a sticky note with a story about when they saw that person living into their values and what it meant for them. And so like everybody in our office has a big sticky note. I mean, I have mine on the side of a file cabinet that has my name, my values, and what it looks like from other people when they see me in them. This, you know, this is also speaking to you, which is when people make lists of like, what's important to them in relationship. Like, what are the five values you want in your partner? Like, what are the five, you know, like, make a list of the things you want.

5:39And if you make the list, you'll get them and blah, blah, blah, you know. And I've done these exercises. And I'm a professional at failed relationships, by the way. Like I've taken the advice of people, like write the 10 things that are non-negotiable in your partner, right? And I've done that. You can't, first of all, I'm not getting all 10, nobody ever does. But I'm realizing from this exercise that what I need to do is I need to make that list two things. Like what are the non-negotiables that if this person doesn't have these two things, then no go. Because, and it goes to the, and it goes, it speaks directly to the executives that you're dealing with, which is we human beings are gifted with the remarkable ability to rationalize anything.

6:23I can rationalize how much I'm spending because I can tell you how much I'm saving. My favorite one is people who sell their company. They built good companies. They're triple bottom line, take care of their people. They have a bazillion dollar exit and they sold it to some awful private equity company who's milking it, destroying it, breaking it, and undoing everything. And then I say to these CEOs, how can you say you wanted to build an impact company if you sold it to them? Why not take less money? Did you need 300 million? Maybe 250 was enough. Like you sold it to that company and they broke it.

7:04How can you call yourself an impact CEO? and they can rationalize the shit out of it to make themselves feel better for taking the money. And I think when you get it down to those two things, whether it's who do I sell my company to, who do I date, how do I lead, who am I? I think I find this unbelievably powerful, the just two things. I think that makes so much sense. I think I'd be comfortable with three to five. That is a lot. But there's a little bit of a paradox in here. At minimum, I think they have to be rank ordered so that you can figure out what your priorities are. But the paradox is - Five in ranked order.

7:49Great. Do 10, do five. Doesn't matter. It's only one and two that matter. Well, okay. So let's say you have your rank order list of two or three or five or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The question is, what happens when you have to assess those relationship specific? So we've all met narcissists who are great to their distant interactions, their acquaintances, but then horrible to the people who are close to them. And we also know people who might show up as kind in relationships with us, but treat others really poorly. Do they have to embody your values in all relationships, or is it enough for them to be that way with you?

8:32no yeah no i don't yeah i don't see it that way yeah i i don't see it that way because i want to know their character yeah and i think yeah i think there's a i want to know that because we've all experienced it we've all been treated nicely because we're the keynote speaker or the blah blah blah yeah yeah right and then you see the way they treat their staff I don't want to be there. Right? Like I want, you know, what did Dave Barry say? You know, did you notice that? Did you notice that? I remembered who said it. Keep going. Credit is due. Like Dave Barry said, nice people who aren't nice to the waiter aren't nice people.

9:10Oh God, yeah. It's the first thing I taught my kids about dating. If you see someone mistreat someone in the service industry, run for your life. So to me, the consistent application of values or the consistent values alignment is character. Yes, I agree with that. I think where it gets more complicated, the hierarchical part of that is easy, right? If they're treating people differently based on status or power, like, no thanks. I think where it gets more complicated is when it starts to, I guess, spill into in-group, out-group dynamics. Are they kinder to people that they feel more comfortable with or, you know, who have something in common with them?

9:48And then do we have to care about how they treat people that they, you know, they might not have any kind of connection with? That's where I struggle more. I've been dealing with this recently. And whether this is right or wrong, this is where I'm at, which is I actually adjust my standard with someone's age. so somebody who's in their 20s and you know we when we were younger we all said stupid things to fit in you know made it puffed ourselves up were unnecessarily mean about somebody who wasn't there we've all done it because we wanted to fit in and feel included right by your 30s like you should be learning some of that stuff but maybe some of those insecurities creep back in 40s you're entitled to like a mistake or two.

10:38But when you start getting older, you should be aware enough that if you're feeling insecure, just shut up. Right? Like, and I now hold older people to a higher standard because they've had enough life experience that they should know better. Younger people, I show a little more grace. So this gets really complicated in the, let's take a specific example. Your kids are friends with somebody who's great to them. But maybe not to other kids. No. Do you tolerate that? No. And I don't have an age ranking. I have a full application all times, all groups, all people. It doesn't mean I excuse the behavior.

11:23It doesn't mean I excuse the behavior. But I allow for the fact that there's a learning curve happening. And that – I mean I didn't shoot. For example, the kids. The kids who are nice to your kids but not nice to other kids, you'd find a way to have that conversation to teach the kids that's that's the grace you're offering right and i think the thing is that like okay let's take this wider and i'm not having a conversation with a 50 year old like you should know better you know and i think i would never want to be dismissed by someone i'm in a relationship with a colleague a partner a child, a friend, because I have operated or behaved outside of my values.

12:06And so it's not like one step outside your values and you're dead to me because I'm outside my values. I mean, I struggle with it every day sometimes. But I think if I've got a child and they've got a friend who's very kind to them, but is unkind to other people, that's going to be problematic. And we're going to talk about the ramifications of that. And we're going to talk about what that means, how that makes them feel, what happens when they observe that and not saying anything is outside of their own values. And so I think it's, I don't think values are situational. I think the expression of behaviors are situational.

12:52Oh, very good. Good distinction. Yes. Very well put. Very well put. And I'll tell you one thing, Adam, that I think about a lot too, to your question. And this is like a hard thing, but very early on, I started thinking about compliance versus commitment with my kids. So my youngest sister graduated from high school. He's off to college. My daughter is 25, getting her PhD. They're spreading their wings. In the early days of parenting, it's all about compliance. You don't go in the street because I said you don't go in the street. You don't watch, you don't play these violent video games. But at some point, if there's not deep discussions about values and friends and things, when it's time for compliance to turn into commitment because you're not controlling that, you will really struggle.

13:43And I think the same is true. I hate to use parenting because in work it infantilizes some, but I think the same is true when you're building a team. If you have to have a team operating within a set of values as compliance, you're just dead. Which is ironic that there's entire departments in certain companies called compliance, right? Right. As opposed to ethics. Yeah. Right? They don't have ethical departments. They have compliance departments. But I think this is a great distinction about the values versus the behavior because the behaviors are excusable. and we all step outside our values.

14:24And I guess what I'm getting at is the character where the people who perhaps I show a little less grace to, not that I humiliate or shame, I don't. It's just sort of, you just sort of take note in your mind. It's not a behavior that I'm reacting to. It's a clue about character. And I say clue because one example is not enough. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Have either of you ever read the Samuel and Pearl O 'Linner study of Holocaust rescuers and bystanders? No. Amazing project by sociologists. So basically they got a big sample, hundreds of Christians who rescued Jews during the Holocaust and compared them to their own neighbors who did nothing.

15:10and they wanted to know what made these people into humans of such extraordinary character that they were willing to risk their lives for somebody who didn't share their fundamental beliefs. And there were a lot of interesting findings in the study, but one that has always stuck with me was the rescuers compared to the bystanders were less likely to be punished with consequences and more likely to be punished with explanations. And I think this goes to the heart of, Brene, your distinction between compliance and commitment. Wait, explain? As kids. Explain, just explain? Yeah, let me explain a little more clearly.

15:46So growing up, the people who went on to become rescuers, when they did something wrong, their parents didn't punish them. They explained to them why the behavior was wrong. So then instead of just learning to comply with what authority figures did, they actually internalized a set of values and principles that they carried with them. Oh, you just gave me goosebumps. Yeah, me too. That's compliance versus commitment. In a nutshell. Wow. And this is now nature versus nurture too, which is – oh, and I remember a study that I read that I couldn't tell you who did it. That'll tell us. Thank you. I was studying when I was writing Leaders Eat Last.

16:29I was, I became very interested in, I read a whole bunch of parenting stuff. And one of the things I remember reading is that, I think they talked about values, but our values don't come from our parents. You know, there's so many influences in our lives and like two kids who are brought up the same way. You know, one goes one way, one goes the other. And apparently across cultures, universally, there's only two things everyone always gets from their parents, which is how you treat yourself and how you treat others. That's interesting. And Adam, this would speak to that, which is when you make a bad choice and you get an explanation that you're learning to treat others in a certain way and yourself.

17:11For sure. And yourself with that versus getting punished. You're going to treat yourself or others in a different way. So good. This goes to Leadership 101 as well. Let me tell you why we don't do that around here, you know, and why the decision you made. I want to explain to you what's important about that decision, like why we don't do it that way. So good. It's so good. And I would imagine, I mean, I don't know if they got to this, Adam, did they? I would imagine when it was consequence versus punishment, I would imagine – this is so interesting. I would imagine that consequence would be a lot of lessons in empathy about how someone's actions affected other people.

18:01Exactly. Where punishment is more shame-driven. Yes. I mean, literally, I think they were doing your research. Yeah, the parents explained the consequences. Like, here's why, you know, stealing your sibling's toy hurts them. Imagine how you would feel if someone stole your toy. This is so good. Instead of shame, they get guilt. I did a bad thing and I need to now prevent it moving forward. What is the one emotion or affect that shame corrodes? Empathy. Shame corrodes empathy. Empathy cannot survive shame. Shame is so self-focused. In shame, you start to believe you're the only person in the world.

18:51Yes. Right? Because it's about preventing me from getting in trouble, which is a very selfish disposition, versus recognizing that I live in the world and my words and my actions have impact in the lives of others. Yeah, self-focused versus other-focused, yeah. The self-versus, the other focus. But I think it works the other way as well, which is it's not just punishment. It's also the reward. And you look at a corporate environment. Look at Boeing. Let's just look at Boeing for five minutes. What a clusterfuck that is.

19:30And incentivized to move fast and hit numbers, punished for slowing down the system. But it's not just the punishment. It's also the incentive. We're incentivizing the wrong behaviors and we're disincentivizing the pro-social behaviors. And it all goes back to selfish versus selfless, which is, do you live in the world by yourself or do you live in the world with others? And I'm going to parent you to recognize that you are one of many versus parenting you that you are just one. You follow the rules because it's just you that needs to follow the rules. and what that leads you to is taking actions to protect your reputation as opposed to improve your character yes or improve your behavior yeah yeah and it's so interesting to you because y 'all y 'all talked about narcissism and that's why like i think i don't know remember what book it was in they not was it atlas of the heart i think it was dare to lead i said i think this is my own That was written by Renee Brown.

20:38That one I know. Thank you. This is all the matter, Simon, just get mine right. But I think I think it was a dare to lead that I said to me, narcissism is the shame based fear of being ordinary. And it's so funny because people think that narcissists are, you know, have these huge egos and it's about grandiosity. But I do know, not from my research, but from other people's research, that there's no kind of continuum on the personality disorder continuum that's more shame-fueled than narcissism. Yeah. People are so afraid of being ordinary. I do think there's something very shame-based, very self-focused, very just scared to death on the inside of that.

21:33Yeah, yeah. I wonder how – so I think about narcissism much less in terms of the personality disorder and much more in terms of normal personality. We all know some people who are more narcissistic than others. A set of – a collection of behaviors, yeah. Exactly. Like a tendency to have an inflated ego and be entitled. And I think this makes me wonder, like, is this part of the difference between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism? Those two flavors that often come out where the grandiose is the larger than life, I'm more important than everyone else. And the vulnerable is the, like, I'm afraid of, you know, of any criticism.

22:10I wonder if these are different strategies for managing shame, that the grandiose narcissists build themselves up and the vulnerable narcissists retreat. Oh, 100%. And by the way, this is what I think one of the things that makes human beings so fascinating. I'll make it a more base example. That just reminds me of college, right? Which is somebody who's very, very social, excessively social. Could be because they're so insecure, they have to be really, really social, or they're so secure, they can be really, really social. Or somebody who never goes out. They stay at home the whole time. It's because they're so insecure, they can't go out or they're so secure.

22:47They can't, they don't want to go out. And I love the fact that the behaviors can be the same, but the opposite motivations, fascinating. And for me, part of the fascination of like the, the, the, the anthropologist in me has always been to try to find the subtleties and nuances that I can spot the difference because they exist. Well, we, we had this over the weekend, Simon, you actually displayed this in Stockholm. Brene, I was noticing two conferences in a row. Simon is the first person to leave the party to go to bed. And at first I was like, Simon, are you more, I thought I was more introverted than you are.

23:31Are you just getting overwhelmed early? Are you sleep obsessed? And then at some point it hit me, you're secure enough that you're not staying around out of FOMO. I, there, a lot of people with loud noise is about the worst thing in the world. Oh God. But it's not, I feel that way too, but it's not just that. You also have the confidence to walk away and say, look, you know, I don't, I don't need to stick around in the hopes that I'll make a connection in the next hour. Yeah, that's true. That's true of you. I've been around you. That's true of you. I mean. Yeah. I you know I it's kind of a life no no no it's just my it's sort of a life philosophy which is which is things will come my way because I'll randomly find myself in places and I will miss things because I didn't show up and I have to be okay with both yeah and because I understand that if I try and be everywhere it actually won't actually necessarily dramatically increase the odds of me getting more.

24:46And so I'm just okay that, you know, it's kind of like we always say, we say this with our friends all the time, like, you know, let me buy dinner. No, no, let me buy it. Don't worry, leave it out in the wash, right? Like over the course of time, it's like, if I flip a coin a hundred times, it's going to be 50-50, right? And so my attitude is like, in a vacuum, yeah, it's probably lopsided, but over the course of my life, it'll even out. You know, win some, lose some. So I, yeah, I've never met a party I couldn't leave too early. God, same. But Adam, so I, as an introvert, if you're fine, because if you're actually uncomfortable with the crowd and the noise, what is the motivation that you choose to stay?

25:34Well, I really like people. So you're not an introvert as much. No, I am. I just at some point get overstimulated by the noise and interaction. But I think that – I don't like people. We know. We know. Secret is out. Simon – well, I'm going to talk about you in the third person. Brene, I think Simon does like people less than you and I do. I'd be shocked if he liked people less than me. I'm just going to be – I mean, humanity I love, people in general. I like persons. I like persons. Fair. I mean, let me just say this. Y 'all, the difference between me and y 'all is I will not even be at the party.

26:22Like contractually, there is – and every contract I sign, there is no dinner. There is no meet and greet. Same. There is nothing. Wait, wait, wait. Same. No, no, no. Do y 'all go to those? No. By the way. No. No, we're talking about – I've never been to an after party because I don't understand the point of them. I went to the damn party. Why do I have to go to the party after the party? I will see your party avoidance and raise you. By the time I was a senior in college, I convinced my roommates that we should have board game gatherings, which were called people overs, because I didn't want to have to leave our room or go to a party.

27:00I was in college and my suite mates would throw parties. And the rule was every suite maid had to contribute money to pay for the party, 50 bucks each or whatever. I would pay my 50 bucks and then go out. I didn't go to the parties that I paid for. This is why y 'all are my people. I mean, this is really why you're my people. I mean, I just – yeah, for me, it's very, very, very difficult. And I – yeah. I want to go back to one thought because I wrote it down. I just wanted to say something that may be controversial, but I think it's an important thing to add. And it goes back to looking for motivation.

27:40And it goes back to the grandiose narcissism and the vulnerable narcissism. I would argue that no matter the behavior, self-focusedness, someone who's super self-focused will be, no matter how it's expressed, is equally painful to other people. I think it's very dangerous to buy into the idea that a grandiose behaving person that has narcissistic tendencies is going to be more hurtful than someone who has those tendencies and is vulnerable. It just shows up different. But in the end, when you're self-focused, there's going to be some empathic fails that are going to be hurtful to somebody. But yes, and we also have to consider the audience, right?

28:40Which is, I agree with you that there is impact from both behaviors, but some people are more resilient to one of those behaviors and some are more resilient to the other kind of behavior. I don't agree. So like if somebody is grandiose, I may say, meh, whatever. They're just grandstanding and I'm not hurt or affected. But if somebody is despondent, it's like my own insecurity is like, oh, my God, did I say something wrong? So where somebody else might be the opposite. And it goes back to what we're saying before, which is the motivations and behaviors may be different. So how I respond may look the same but be differently motivated.

29:23Yes, I think – If the whole point we're making is that we live in the world, we can't just consider the person who's behaving. We also have to consider the person on the receiving end of the behavior. Seaving end. Yeah. I think you're right. I think when I see grandiosity – I mean like Trump is a great example in my opinion. Are we allowed to say that? I keep it apolitical, but it's an example of grandiosity. It's fine. Yeah. You can see that coming. And some people find it offensive and some people find it seductive. Right. And it doesn't make one more right than the other. No, but I think when the behavior outwardly, I don't know, I just find in leadership, with leaders I've worked with, that vulnerable, quiet self-focus can be absolutely brutal on direct reports.