Revisited: The First Steps To Reducing Your Anxiety with Author Mel Robbins

10:07Mel Robbins:Well, because people only change when they feel like it. And this does not, to me, sound like a compelling enough reason in terms of your why. And I don't think you're committed to changing it, so I don't think you're going to do it. If you really wanted to do it, you're a smart enough person that you would solve this problem. See, I think the issue is -

10:23Simon Sinek:I don't think it's a question of intelligence.

10:25Mel Robbins:No, I don't either. I think it's that you listen to your emotions in the moment and you allow them to dictate what you do. I think it's, I think it's, nah, I think it's, I think it's routine.

10:37Simon Sinek:Like when you're in a routine, it's hard to get out of it.

10:39Mel Robbins:But do you agree?

10:40Simon Sinek:Like if I'm working out on a regular basis, it's very hard. So when I used to run a lot.

10:43Mel Robbins:Okay. And when I was running a lot, I just loved running.

10:49Simon Sinek:And I was in the routine and I would, I'd like, I'd be, it'd be the afternoon. I'd look at my watch and I'd be like, I don't have a meeting for another hour. I'm going to go for a run. I would just go for a run. Like when I, when I was in the routine, I loved being in the routine. And so I'm in the routine of not working out. That's my routine. So I think it's hard to change routines. True. And I'm in the routine of not doing.

11:12Mel Robbins:See, I believe people only change when they want to. Yeah. And that if you don't feel like doing something, you're not going to. And the truth is that waiting around to feel like doing this or waiting around for you to be motivated or inspired to break your routine, that's not enough. yeah and it's not a matter of will it's a matter of skill and it is a skill in life to be able to feel what you feel and then do what you need to do now one of the most famous taglines in the world is nike just do it sure what's the most powerful word of those three words the do no the just yes if their tagline had been do it oh yeah you would have hated that

11:56Simon Sinek:I would have, yeah.

11:57Mel Robbins:Yeah, of course, because pressure. It's aggressive. Well, it's not only that it's aggressive. If you look at basic brain wiring, that type of pressure doesn't motivate. It actually creates resistance to change.

12:10Simon Sinek:Yeah.

12:11Mel Robbins:Because it is an assault on your fundamental need to control yourself.

12:16Simon Sinek:Yeah.

12:16Mel Robbins:But the tagline, just do it, appeals to your humanity. it's acknowledging something we all struggle with which is that moment of hesitation that moment of self-doubt that moment where you're standing on the sideline aching to jump in the game but you are holding yourself back the just is everything and that's what the five second rule is it's acknowledging that we all have this habit of hesitating in the small moments this bias towards thinking, where we consider how we feel about the thing that we're about to do instead of doing the small thing that we need to do. And for me, it was the moment of hesitation when the alarm rang.

13:03Mel Robbins:And I knew I needed to get out of bed. I knew I needed to get the kids on the bus. I knew I needed to get a job. I knew I needed to not drink so much. I knew I needed to stop screaming at my husband. I knew I needed to ask for help. I wasn't doing any of it. Because in that moment when that alarm rang and I knew what I needed to do, I stopped and considered how I felt about doing it. And when you stop and consider how you feel, your brain is wired to do what's easy. We naturally move towards it. We are also wired to push away from what feels hard. And the reason why it is so difficult to break patterns is because the patterns that you're in feel easy because you know them.

13:41Mel Robbins:Lying in bed is easy. That's why we do it. Picking up your phone and scrolling on social media, it's easy. That's why we do it. In order to change anything about your life or to replace any pattern in your life, you have to work against basic wiring in your brain and you have to develop a skill of being able to ignore how you feel and choose to take action even when you don't want to. And that's what the five second rule taught me. You know, when I look at the success that I've built and the things that I've done since even the TEDx talk or that moment in my life 14 years ago, I don't think I'm particularly special.

14:21Mel Robbins:I just did what a lot of people won't do. I got up on the mornings when I didn't feel like it. I did the boring ass, tedious, grueling crap that needs to get done every day. And I refused to quit. and it is a skill to learn how to feel what you're feeling and then align your action with the thing that you know you need to do that's good for you were you always like this

14:46Simon Sinek:were you always a type and like in school like what was your what was your oh i was a walking

14:50Mel Robbins:red flag for a long time what does that mean uh that means that i was like i struggle with a lot of stuff i think this is why i'm obsessed with helping like it's why i'm obsessed with uncovering any kind of shortcut or any kind of knowledge or tool that can help you create a better life or solve a problem. Because I spent so much of my life hurting myself or hurting other people because I just didn't know. I mean, there's so many examples of this from trauma in your childhood to I had dyslexia and ADHD. I had no fucking clue I had those things. And part of the reason why I had no clue is because when they were researching ADHD in the 70s, they only looked at boys.

15:34Mel Robbins:And we now know that girls have ADHD just as much as boys. They just have the opposite symptoms. And if you're in a classroom and your brain doesn't learn the way that public school or whatever school is asking you to learn, if you don't address dyslexia, dysgraphia, ADHD, what develops on the surface is anxiety. So there are generations of women, I am one of them, who got diagnosed with anxiety in their late teens and early 20s, who were medicated for anxiety.

16:06Simon Sinek:The wrong thing.

16:07Mel Robbins:The wrong thing.

16:08Simon Sinek:Yeah.

16:08Mel Robbins:And I didn't discover that I had ADHD or dyslexia until I was 47 years old. And you want to know how I discovered it? I discovered it the same way the majority of women discover it. Because one of my kids was going through the process of getting evaluated by a neuropsychologist for school. And as I looked at his profile, I'm like, well, that looks like me. and then I went through it and lo and behold, it explained everything. I didn't know. And suddenly knowing gave me a completely different vantage point about the things that I struggled with, about the things that I did that I regret, about the opportunities that I squandered.

16:47Mel Robbins:You know, I recently had on our podcast, a really incredible guy by the name of Dr. Stuart Ablon. He's a psychologist that's been practicing at Mass General Brigham for 30 years. And he had this thing that he said just a week ago that I will never forget. He said, people do well when they can. And if you're not doing well, or if somebody in your life is not doing well, it's because they can't right now. There's a skill. It's not a willpower issue. If somebody is expressing challenging behavior, there's typically some sort of skill that is missing. There's a problem underneath the behavior that hasn't been discovered.

17:24Mel Robbins:And so what I've found in my life is that I have struggled silently. I have felt very stuck in patterns of behavior that I didn't feel like equipped to be able to replace or understand, which only leads you to feel worse about yourself. Like how can I keep doing this to myself? How can I keep making the same mistakes? Why am I so damn hard on myself? And so when you don't know what's going on or you don't understand kind of the trap that you're in, then you have no ability to get out of it. And so for me, it was a revelation to understand that simply counting 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, it allowed me to not be ruled by emotion.

18:11It allowed me to not let the patterns of my past

18:15Mel Robbins:dictate the person I was in the present. And when you start to gain that kind of control over yourself, it's liberating. So no, I wasn't always that person at all.

18:29Simon Sinek:But were you sort of, did you have always have a lot of grit, sort of work hard at school?

18:33Mel Robbins:Yeah, because I was like super competitive in like a lot of people. I got a lot of positive attention when I got great grades or when the track team won or when I was elected president of whatever. And so, yeah.

18:46Simon Sinek:So it was not that you had the skill of grit and motivation and you lost it. And the 50321 helped you?

18:55Mel Robbins:See, I don't think it's an issue of motivation.

18:58Simon Sinek:Go on.

18:59Mel Robbins:I don't because I think motivation is complete garbage. it's never there when you need it and that's the paradox of it is that we're all sitting there waiting to feel motivated yeah and it's not coming yeah because basic wiring of the brain is that you will always default to what's easy and you always push against what's hard and if motivation were available on demand we'd all have a million dollars in six-pack abs and so sitting around waiting for motivation is the kiss of death because it's in the action

19:29Simon Sinek:that you dissipate the emotion and it's in the action that you actually prove to yourself through

19:35Mel Robbins:the action because you see yourself operating differently, that you are a different person, that you are not defined by your emotions. I mean, emotions are just chemical reactions that explode within six seconds. And the research shows that if you can learn how to let them rise and fall like a wave, most emotion dissipates in 90 seconds. Instead, what we do is we feel it and then we think the emotion needs to guide our response to it. And it's actually the opposite. You can choose your response if you understand what emotions are. And I felt trapped and I was a hostage to my emotions all the time.

20:11You can either be sunny and you can be a storm cloud.

20:14Mel Robbins:You get to choose. And for a large part of my life, I was violently oscillating between those two things. And learning how to be in control of the actions that you take and learning that you do have agency and that you don't have to wait to feel like it, that you're not going to sit around and wait for motivation, that you're the kind of person that is building the skill of doing what needs to get done. And that's an incredible thing.

20:42Simon Sinek:But do you allow yourself then to feel sad?

20:44Mel Robbins:Of course. Absolutely. Absolutely. But I get to choose how I sit with it. So give me an example. So being sad is a mentally healthy response to situations in life. And the thing about it is that there's going to become an amount of time that being in your sadness is helping you process grief or helping you process heartbreak or helping you process disappointment. Like for me, the last time, the thing that comes to mind is when we moved, so we lived outside of Boston for 26 years. And then about four years ago, we moved to Southern Vermont. And so at the age of 52, all of a sudden I'm in this tiny little town and I don't know anybody.

21:32Mel Robbins:I don't have any friends. I was very sad. I was very lonely. And I sat with it for quite a while. And I think that I over-indexed on sadness for probably six months too long. And at some point, there's this tipping point with your emotions where you go from needing to process something to truly drowning in it. And that's when I think you need to do something.

22:04Simon Sinek:Where do other people factor into all this? the idea of asking for help or having a support network. You know, I hear everything you're saying and it's true and inspiring. But where do other people fit into this?

22:20Mel Robbins:Other people are everything.

22:22Simon Sinek:Because, you know, we're social animals and none of this works in a vacuum.

22:27Mel Robbins:Correct.

22:29Simon Sinek:So even in your story, at what points would this not have been possible if there wasn't another person involved? I mean, there's only so many times you can say 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Yeah.

22:41Mel Robbins:So 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 changes your relationship to yourself.

22:44Simon Sinek:Right. You asked me, like, what's the reason you want to be in shape? Yes. Right? And, you know, service is the greatest motivator of all. Your family, your friends, whatever it is, the greater good. And I said, I'm okay letting myself down, but I don't want to let other people. I won't let other people down. And I also know that my ability to deal with stress, discomfort, whatever, whenever one needs grit, skyrockets if I have at least one person in my life who says, you got this. They don't have to go on the journey with me. Right. But if I can call them at the end of the day and be like, I'm not so sure.

23:23They're like, yeah, I believe in you.

23:25Simon Sinek:And if it all goes south, I'm still going to love you. And then all of a sudden, I'm golden. Of course. Where is the person sitting next to you? Like you were there for your husband who was going through this debt with you. You know, it's his restaurant, right? I just want to know the role that other people play or need to play. They're everything.

23:43Mel Robbins:But here's the thing. So that changed my relationship with myself. Yeah. And it made me acutely aware that I'm responsible for creating what I want in life. And I'm also responsible for doing the work to make it happen. So self-reliance. Yeah. And the thing that changed everything when it comes to relationships for me is what I discovered two years ago, which I call the let them theory. And the let them theory flipped absolutely everything on its head about the way that I approach relationships. And I've been married for almost 30 years. I have three adult children. I have now a great friend group and I realize looking backwards on my life before the let them theory that I was approaching relationships and approaching other people in the exact opposite

24:48Simon Sinek:way that I should have been and I think most people are for example well I think that most of us

24:55Mel Robbins:waste too much time and energy worrying about managing and trying to control other people and change them. And when you learn to let other people be, and you learn to love people as they are, and when you learn to let people heal when they're ready, and when you learn that people are who they are and people change when they're ready to change and do the work to change, and when you understand that the best way to love somebody is to not try to change them, but to actually see them as they are and see them as they aren't. And then instead of pouring all the time and energy into trying to fix, manage, worry, change them, you just let them and you detach from the control.

25:41Mel Robbins:And then you say the second part, which is let me, let me, instead of controlling them, let me focus on what's within my control, which is there's only three things that you can control. You can control what you think in response to something, you control what you do or don't do, and you can control what you are going to do with your emotions. That's it. That's it. And ultimately, as you know, we all have a very hardwired need for control. And when we don't feel in control, we feel unsafe. And every person that you know has the same need for control. And what happens is that in our need to be in charge and in control and to feel safe, we end up trying to control things that are not controllable.

26:23Mel Robbins:And number one on the list is trying to control what other people think, trying to control people's emotions, trying to make sure everybody's not disappointed or let down by you. We pour so much energy into that, that we are giving power to other people and we are creating friction for ourselves and stress for ourselves. And we're creating friction and frustration in relationships. And you don't have to live like that. And so I used to be somebody that was micromanaging my kids, trying to control everything that they did. I had massive opinions about what people should be doing. I bent over backwards to try to make sure people weren't disappointed or not letting people down or that I matched everybody's expectations.

27:07Mel Robbins:It's absolutely exhausting. And not only that, you actually will never be able to control the thought that somebody is having in their mind. You are never going to be able to control the emotions that somebody feels in response to what you do. And it is not your job to do that. And so learning to allow people to be who they are and learning to allow adults to be adults has created a set of boundaries. and it has also created space for true connection, love, and mutual exchange to happen.

27:45Simon Sinek:What happened that you came to this theory?

27:47Mel Robbins:So I was at, I can't believe this is where it happened, but I was at a high school prom. And I had gone, now I discover all this life-changing stuff, and this is the single most important thing I've ever discovered, by far. This is the legacy I will leave on this planet. I'm at a high school prom. I have had, mind you, two daughters who have gone through high school prom. So we have done the dramatic five months of bullshit, picking out the dresses, the spray tans, the limos, like the craziness. So I figure, okay, we got this on lock. I know what's going to happen. I thought Oak was going to be a breeze.

28:20Mel Robbins:It was the worst because he didn't know if he was going to go. He was really nonchalant. So I couldn't get, like, I didn't know what was happening. And then 48 hours before prom, it's like, I'm going, I'm like, oh my God, where are we going to find a tux in Vermont? Like you want those tennis shoes? Like it was a last minute scramble. And so we get to the night of prom and we go to the party where we're taking all the photos before prom and everything is different in Vermont than it was in Boston. So I'm starting to be like, what do you mean? Like you're driving, like you're driving. Isn't there a bus?

28:55Mel Robbins:Like what? And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, it starts to pour rain. Like the storms roll in. It's pouring rain. Now all the parents are kind of milling about, what are you guys doing for dinner? I'm like, you don't have dinner reservations? What do you mean? And Oakley's like, well, I think we're just going to the taco stand. And for me, that was just like the end of it. Like I'm like, taco stand, rainstorm. You're not going. You're going to ruin it. And I start to just lose it. And my daughter was home from college. And she reaches over and grabs my arm. She's like, Mom, you're annoying.

29:26Simon Sinek:Stop it. And I'm like, but, but, but they're going to get soaked.

29:30Mel Robbins:And she's like, let them. And I'm like, but the restaurant's not bad. Let them. But he's going to ruin his tennis. Let them. But her hair, let them. Mom, it's their prom, not yours. Let them do what they want. And there was something about the moment and her saying, let them in this cascading fashion. that every time she said it, it was like a sledgehammer hitting my nervous system. And by the time she said it the last time, let them do what they want. I felt this instant peace. And then it occurred to me, why the hell do I care about this? Why am I not worried about where I'm meeting? And so I walk up to our son Oakley and as I'm, he's like, what?

30:21Mel Robbins:You know, cause it's been so annoying. I'm like, nothing dude, it. Here's 40 bucks. Go have fun. And you could see him relax. And, you know, they run out the door and of course they splash mud right up her dress and shoes are ruined. Who cares?

30:36Simon Sinek:Yeah.

30:36Mel Robbins:And so the next morning I wake up and I'm at like a garden center buying some plants and I'm standing there in line and you know how you're in line and there's like five people in front of you and it's like beep beep beep chit chat for small talk and then you start to feel the stress rising and then you start to think why don't they have another cashier and you start to get irritated and now you think that you can run the garden center better than everybody else and now you're fidgeting and you're looking and you want to turn to the person and you're like let them they're doing traffic they're doing construction on it let them your mother's disappointed, you're not coming, let her be disappointed.

31:17Mel Robbins:It is extraordinary how often other people's behavior or their opinions or what people are doing pisses you off, stresses you out or upsets you. And you have zero control over it. So why on earth would you want to give your precious time and energy to something that you have zero control over? And as I went through my day. And, you know, I get home from the garden center and the dog has taken a dump on the like front walk. And I'm like, what is, let him, like, I can't control it now. Why would I let this now get me, let him. And it was so interesting to just watch how many times I was pulling this lever, how many times I was allowing things out there to get in here.

32:02Mel Robbins:And this is a really big deal because if you look at burnout, if you look at chronic stress, if you look at how overwhelmed people feel right now, how people are, they don't have any time, they're exhausted at the end of the day. I'm here to tell you, if you feel that way, the problem isn't you. The problem is the power you give to other people and things outside your control. And as I started to engage with this, like, wow, there I am. I'm like giving power to people's opinions. Oh, wow. I'm worried that that person's in a bad mood at work and it must be my fault. And so I better be extra nice or help them out so that I can, now let them be in a bad mood.

32:37Mel Robbins:Why is it my job? That doesn't mean you're not supportive because here comes the second part. Then you say, once you detach, let me, let me remind myself of my values. And if you're a supportive person, if you're a compassionate person, maybe you are going to offer support. But if you're exhausted and you've already spent all this time taking on too much, maybe right now is when you say, you know what, I'm going to let them deal with themselves. And I'm going to let me take a step back because that's actually what I need to do based on my values and my priorities. And so I experimented this with this for like three days and I was so blown away by how peaceful I felt, how present I felt, how I wasn't triggered by a particular person in my life who has a kind of narcissistic personality style because I could just let them be who they are.

33:25Mel Robbins:If your friends don't invite you out this weekend, let them. If the person you're dating doesn't want a commitment, let them. If your kids don't want to go to the flea market with you this week and let them. Stop worrying about managing and stressing about other people. Stop forcing them to change. Let people be who they are because they are revealing themselves to you and they're revealing their priorities and what matters to you. And then you get to choose. You get to choose how to respond. And that's where your power is. I used to struggle with guilt all the time. I desperately did not want to let anybody down.

34:00Mel Robbins:Didn't want to disappoint anybody. So if the holidays are coming up, my parents live in Michigan. If we're not going to go home to Michigan, they're going to be disappointed.

34:09Simon Sinek:Let them.

34:12Mel Robbins:Because let's think about disappointment. Isn't it good? I mean, isn't it a good thing that people want to see you? That they're disappointed that you're not coming home? I mean, doesn't that mean they love you? of course it means that they love you. I mean, what's the alternative? Thank God Simon's not coming. He's a dickhead. Like, I don't want him here. So let them be disappointed. And then you say the second part, which is let me. And you ask yourself, well, what do I value? And if you truly value family and it's important to you, then make a decision to go. Not because you don't want to let them down, but because it's for you.

34:54Mel Robbins:Because if you operate from a model of, I don't want to let other people down. I don't want to feel guilty. I don't want to disappoint them. You make them the villain.

35:02Simon Sinek:Yeah, yeah.

35:02Mel Robbins:And you give your power away.

35:03Simon Sinek:And you're doing everything for other people. The thing that I really, I mean, you may have already come to this realization, this conclusion. Those two ideas are the same thing. They're two sides of the same coin. It's accountability.

35:14Mel Robbins:Yeah.

35:15Simon Sinek:And one is taking accountability, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And the other one is ensuring that they have accountability, that you're not taking accountability for them and their actions. Right. It's one is being responsible for yourself and making sure that they're responsible for themselves. It's the same thing. Yes. which I think is really powerful and it doesn't surprise me that you came upon both ideas. I learned this a long time ago and I had a similar experience many years ago. I mean, I was doing consulting and I cared that my clients did well, obviously. I took their success personally because I wanted to support them.

35:51Simon Sinek:And I'd give them advice. I have objectivity that they don't have because I'm an outsider. I'm not emotionally connected to whatever it is their business. Right. I can see things much more clearly than they can, not because I'm smarter, just because I'm on the outside. And I would give advice and they would fight with me. And I'd be forced to defend my advice. And I would be passionate about it. I have sleepless nights because I really wanted them to succeed. And I realized, same thing. I'm like, why the hell am I getting upset over his business? Like, I don't care. And so the next day I shifted accountability.

36:20Simon Sinek:I gave some advice, gave an observation, and he fought with me. He's like, no, that's not what we should do. we should do this. And I said, look, this is your business. If you are wildly successful, or if you go completely bankrupt, I just want you to know, I don't care. I'm going to sleep well tonight, regardless of the decision you make. Every decision you make is going to be the right one because it's your decision and it's your business. And I'm just here to show you stuff that you maybe can't see by yourself. So take my advice or ignore my advice. And he took your advice. And of course, the minute, and I realized what was happening is the reason I got emotional is because I was taking on accountability, which is why I defended the idea, because I'm taking accountability for the decision.

37:04The minute I pushed it in his court, all of a sudden he started taking the advice.

37:09Simon Sinek:Yes, exactly. All of a sudden he started listening more.

37:13Mel Robbins:People need to think it's their idea.

37:15Simon Sinek:I just think that the reason people fight, I think the reason people fight is because they're trying hard not to take accountability. Because if I take accountability, that means I'm responsible for the outcome. But if I can blame you for the outcome, you know?

37:31Mel Robbins:I actually think it's deeper than that. Go on. Well, if you have a hardwired need for control and somebody pushes, it is an assault to your agency.

37:44Simon Sinek:I'm not the one pushing.

37:46Mel Robbins:You are by challenging an idea that makes them uncomfortable.

37:50Simon Sinek:I think that's how it plays out some of the time. You know, some of the times it's like, hey, we did this research. I recommend you do this. Sometimes it's very, you know.

38:00Mel Robbins:Well, you might have just been dealing with somebody very argumentative.

38:02Simon Sinek:I mean, but that's just it, which is that argumentative defensive person. And that happens in relationships as well. Yes. Which is we become argumentative because we're triggered by something or we're defending ourselves on something. But the minute the accountability is shifted, and that's what let them does, it shifts accountability, which I absolutely adore. And let me, like 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, is me taking accountability, and then there's the relationship in between. And so if you take accountability for you, and I promise to take accountability for me, I guarantee we're both going to be happier and more relaxed.

38:31Mel Robbins:Yes. And if you stop focusing on things you can't control, you're going to feel less stressed and frustrated in your life. You're going to see that no matter what the situation is, you always have power because you can always focus on your response. And if you look at the word taking responsibility, it's your ability to respond.

38:48Simon Sinek:Yeah.

38:49Mel Robbins:And, you know, the other area where I think you might be very interested, where this has had a huge impact in my life is it's changed my entire approach to adult friendship. And I know you've been talking about this a lot recently. And I have a philosophy about friendship that when you are 20 and under, friendship is a group sport. Your entire life is organized so that it is easy to spend time with people your age. And every milestone in your life is measured at the same time. You move through one grade to the next grade to the next grade to the next grade. You are able to locate yourself in space and time because you are with people your age all doing the same thing.

39:34Mel Robbins:And so the conditions for friendship are set up. And you also have a tremendous amount of time with people going through the same things. and then all of a sudden your 20s hit and what I call the great scattering happens and nobody sees it coming. And friendship goes from a group sport where everybody expects to be included because you've always been included on teams or in classes or whatever to an individual one. And what people don't understand is that there's a massive shift from expecting to be included, expecting to be best friends, expecting it to actually having to create it. And understanding that there are three things that have to be present in order for a friendship to happen.

40:19Mel Robbins:Number one, you have to have proximity. And the reason why proximity matters is because time spent with people matters. And they've done studies on how much time you need to spend with somebody in order to become a friend. And it's a huge amount of time. To be a casual friend, to study something like 70 hours. To be a close friend, it's something like 200 hours. This is why you easily made friends in college because you were living with people, you were eating with people. So the conditions of proximity were there. It's also why you weren't friends with the person at the end of the hall. They've done research on this too, that if you study who you're friends with in a dorm, the people across the hall or next door are more likely going to be your friends.

40:58Mel Robbins:Why? Proximity matters. The person that you don't see much who's at the end of the hall, you're not going to spend that much time with. The second one is the timing of your life. And so if you're now in your 20s, the timing of everybody's life is very different because some people are going to graduate school. Some people are going into the military. Some people are moving. Some people are getting married. Some people are chasing the corporate ladder. Some people are traveling. So the timing of what's relevant for you is off. And it used to be the same because you're all moving through grades, right?

41:34Mel Robbins:The third is energy. Sometimes energy clicks, sometimes it doesn't. And friendships in your adult life are going to come and go for the rest of time, which is why you have to have a very flexible approach to friendship from the moment you turn 20. You have to learn to let people leave and let new people come in. And if you don't understand this, you start to think that you're the problem. You start to think that you're being left out. If you have a friendship that starts to fade, I want you, before you X them out, before you judge, before you judge yourself, I want you to ask yourself, are the three conditions present?

42:19Mel Robbins:Or is proximity changed? Or has the timing of our lives changed? They've gotten engaged. I'm still single. They're in graduate school. I'm across the country doing something else. Has the energy shifted? Because that happens too. If you're suddenly not drinking, the energy is going to shift with you and the friends of yours have partied all the time. And what I love about understanding this is that it makes it not personal. And when you understand that friendship is also now an individual sport and it's yours to create, it allows you to understand that the whole tool is not let them create my social life, not let them keep up with the text chain, but let me figure out what I want friendship to be and let me go first.

43:03Mel Robbins:Let me be the one that's making the plans. Let me be the one reaching out, not because I'm expecting them to respond, but because this is a value of mine that I want to create for myself. And what you'll find when you shift this perspective is that you find your people.

43:19Simon Sinek:Tell me a specific story, something you've done in your career, that if a project, something you were involved in doesn't have to have been commercially successful, but that if every project you did was like this one, you'd be the happiest person alive.

43:36Mel Robbins:I loved actually writing this book because I did it with my daughter and it healed our relationship. It allowed me to see my daughter in a completely different light. So my daughter had never wanted to work with me. And I respect that. She wanted to have her own path in life. She wanted to do her own thing. And when she graduated from college, she went and worked for this huge cybersecurity firm and was in the marketing and analytics department. And then after a couple of years of doing that, she went on a solo backpacking trip in Asia and came home from that broke, moved in with my husband and I, and was looking for a job and looking for a restaurant job so that she could save up a bunch of money and move to New York and then go on with her life.

44:30And so I said to her, you know, I'm about to hire a research assistant

44:35Mel Robbins:to research this thing that I'm calling the let them theory. And you need money. And I know you don't want to work for me, but if you would like to make some money, I can have you work with somebody else. You don't have to talk to me, but it's like a three week long project. Here's a podcast episode. Here's a couple YouTube videos. Here's some articles. And here's about 15 ,000 Commons. Why don't you dig into all of this and come back to me and kind of tell me, give me some sentiment analysis. And so she said, fine, fine. Okay. Okay. So 36 hours later, she presents a 27 page Excel columned, color coded drop down menu, source linked guide to all of her research, including a two page like distillation of everything she had discovered with a gigantic warning that she didn't think that I should write this book because she was deeply concerned that she was seeing a lane of people who were saying that the theory was making them lonelier.

45:52Mel Robbins:Because when you say let them and you allow people to be who they are, you start to realize that you have a lot of friendships that are fake, or you have a lot of relationships in your life that are one-sided, where you're putting in a lot of effort and it's not getting returned. And when you see that somebody doesn't reciprocate, you then start to feel like, my God, my siblings, they don't ever reach out. My friends don't reach out. Now I'm really lonely. And so she said, you can't write this book unless there's a second part. There has to be a part, mom, where this flips and you feel empowered again.

46:28Mel Robbins:And it was her and her research and her brain that created the second step, which is let me. And it was a extraordinary experience to have her hand me that 27 page document because it was the first time I understood her brain. And she is a extremely like driven human being. And it made me realize, oh my God, like she's got a computer processor upstairs. And I now understand for the first time that if she doesn't have something big to aim it at, she aims it at herself, which is why she's hard on herself. And it had me see a side of her that I never fully understood. It was extraordinary. But the bigger thing was as we worked through all of the different aspects of writing this book, and you know, like you've written unbelievable books.

47:28Mel Robbins:It's a bitch to write a book. We had to say, let them, let them, let them with each other every day, all day long. And we were the kind, we had the kind of relationship where we're really close, but there was just this like invisible distance. And I think there's a lot of relationships like that where you want to be closer. You want to have more fun. You want to feel like the tension or whatever the things are that you start to get irritated with one another, that they would just disappear. And every one of us has somebody like that in our life, whether it's a parent, or it's an adult child, or it's a sibling, or it's somebody that you're a friend with, that there's just sort of like this, like...

48:14Simon Sinek:So of all of the amazing things you've done in your life, what specifically is about this one that you cling onto it and you want to talk about it right now? I asked for you for a single example of something you love that is everything you did in your life was like this thing, you'd be the most fulfilled person in the world. What specifically is about the story that stands out amongst all the other things.

48:33Mel Robbins:It allowed me to clear out the friction and bullshit between us. Okay. It allowed us to create space for both of us to be and for us to truly give like, you know, because look, people are irritating, especially the people that you love. I often think that family is around so that it teaches you to love people you hate sometimes. And when you're working with somebody in the trenches like that, there are going to be things all day long that piss you off or frustrate you. And when you say let them, you don't have that death by a thousand cuts that start to build up the resentment, the frustration, the annoyance.

49:14Mel Robbins:You create space for the other person to be human.

49:17Simon Sinek:Okay. Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory, something I can relive with you, something specific.

49:22Mel Robbins:Oh, boy. um childhood memory um when i grew up in uh north muskegon michigan and it was back when winters were really bad although the winters are bad now and my mom used to shovel off a big ice skating rink and my best friend and i would go down is this one memory you're thinking of is this something that recurred oh no i'm thinking of a particular day okay good and my best friend and I, Jody Bricken, we would trudge down there. And I have this one memory where I have this hideous, like when I think about what my daughters look like when they were 14 versus me with my buck teeth and braces and middle part and feathered hair and hideous acid wash jeans and my like leg warmers and just ugly ass cord, like what the hell?

50:11Mel Robbins:I looked like a troll. And so we had this big boom box and we had i think it was journey on it and uh jody and i would sit out there for hours and create ice dancing routines brilliant okay what i think is so interesting about the memory

50:30Simon Sinek:that memory and the story you told about my daughter's daughters um and writing the book with her is in both cases there's a clearing that happens right and you said it you said as much you said it cleared a space it created a space for us right it relieved something and it's not too different than your mother creating the space for ice dancing to happen and in in some way you have become your mother where your theories clear snow off the ice so that other people can go create do be whoever they are live their best lives and uh this is this is it all makes sense to me everything we've talked about in all of your theories are about you are shoveling snow away.

51:31Simon Sinek:You are creating space. The storms and snow that we add to our brains that don't allow ourselves or other people to go create ice dances. And this living best self by let them or counting down, all of it is shoveling snow.

51:46Mel Robbins:It makes perfect sense.

51:47Simon Sinek:It's a great visual. And this is who you've become your mother, where you're this minor character in a big story. A minor character that does a big thing so that other it all of your stuff is very very simple like shoveling snow it doesn't require a lot of a lot of effort doesn't require a lot of skill it is a skill it is an effort you got to do it it's something to be done but when that snow is cleared when that space is made the only thing that happens is joy and happiness is clarity and ice dancing and certainty and accountability and all of it and and i i that has been the constant theme in everything that you've said today.

52:29Mel Robbins:It's a beautiful way to wrap it up. And you know, what's funny is that this morning, my mom sent me a text. And it was she was in a Chico's. Of course. And it was a photo of her with this awesome woman between my mom and my dad. And she wrote me this note that said, hey, I'm in Chico's and this is Ellen. And she's a huge fan of yours. And she wants you to know that because of your podcast, she has gone back to singing opera, something she hasn't done in 15 years. And it's let them and the five second rule that have cleared the path for her.

53:15Simon Sinek:To go make ice dances.

53:16Mel Robbins:Yes.

53:19Simon Sinek:this is who you are you've devoted your life and you are your best self and you're probably your most fulfilled when you are clearing space for other people to go take accountability for their own lives and do be their best selves however you want to put it yes and uh like i said it is small things that have big impact these little little little rules that can be applied so

53:41Mel Robbins:quickly and so easily yeah because i feel like one of the things that is missing for most people is hope.

53:48Simon Sinek:Yeah.

53:48Mel Robbins:That it's easy to listen to you or to me or to read our books. But if you don't

53:56Simon Sinek:think it's going to work for you, you won't do it. Yeah. Well, I think this is the thing that I think you and I have in common, which is I work, I've really practiced over the years that I don't say you, I say we, I don't stand on stage and say, you know what you need to do to thrive. You know, like who the hell am I? Right? I say, you know what we need to do to learn how to thrive? We need to be better at taking care of each other. We need, and I always include myself as do you. And both of our stories are not because we're smarter. Both of our stories is because we had no choice. Like, like you had no choice but to come up with something.

54:38Simon Sinek:Otherwise, who knows what would have happened. My story is the same. Like all of the discoveries I've made is not because I'm smart. It's not because I sat down and like, Hmm, I'm going to think about things that have an impact on the world. Not at all. It's because I had no choice. Like, like a kid with ADHD who couldn't read a book and ADHD wasn't a thing when I was a kid. I was just hyperactive, selfish, and unfocused. That's how I was described. But I couldn't study and I wasn't good at school and I was going to fail school unless I figured out ways to pass school. And so I learned how to ask really good questions and be a really good listener because I had no choice.

55:19Simon Sinek:And I'm a great believer that the solutions we find to the struggles we have in where kids become our strengths as adults.

55:25Mel Robbins:For sure. Or they become the prison you're in as it felt.

55:28Simon Sinek:Or they become the prison. Yeah, 100%. 100%. and I love the way you speak. I've been captivated this entire time taking in every word, not agreeing with all of them, but taking them in.

55:41Mel Robbins:Let them.

55:42Simon Sinek:Let them.

55:43Mel Robbins:I don't care.

55:45Simon Sinek:But it's not a question of caring. I like the intellectual pursuit.

55:49Mel Robbins:Yeah.

55:49Simon Sinek:It's not that I disagree because I think you're wrong. That's not what it is. No, you can tell your mind is like,

55:55Mel Robbins:I want to understand the nuance. You can tell.

55:57Simon Sinek:It's not that I want to be it and I want you to be wrong. That's not what it is. It's a question of really wanting to understand all the nuance that goes with a really beautiful, rich idea. Because I love ideas. And I love understanding how the world works. And like you, I believe we overcomplicate things. And some people overcomplicate things because it makes them look smart. And some people overcomplicate things because they can't help themselves. But if you really boil it down, human beings are pretty simple, pretty predictable, pretty consistent. and if you understand some basics of sort of anthropology and human biology, it all kind of just makes sense.

56:35Simon Sinek:And this is why your ideas are so elegant. They're so elegant in their simplicity. They're so elegant. I walk away richer having had you here. Thank you so, so much.

56:46Mel Robbins:Well, thank you for having me.

56:48Simon Sinek:Such magic. Such magic. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. lovingly produced by our team Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford and Devin Johnson subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts and if you want even more cool stuff visit simonsynic.com thanks for listening take care of yourself, take care of each other