The Business Case for Good Manners with etiquette coach William Hanson

0:00This episode is brought to you by True Classic. I'm so proud that True Classic is a sponsor because I really like their company and I really like their CEO. And I really love their clothes as well. I've been wearing their t-shirts long before they became a sponsor. Do check them out. What are some of the specific things that you have seen that a lot of people get wrong? When you are having a conversation, a networking event, cocktail party, whatever it is, a lot of people, you'll be doing a story about a skiing accident, for example, that you've had. You were skiing 10 years ago, you had some accident.

0:34And most people will listen to that and will be thinking, what story do I have about an accident I've had on holiday? Rather than, let me ask you a follow-up question. Let you have that moment. Whereas people are obsessed with trying to match or beat the story and it becomes competitive. Because we have become so insecure, I think, generally, people feel that they need, or they feel they need, again, to bond. Oh, to bond, I've got to say that I've gone through the same process as you. That's very tiring. It is said that manners maketh the man, and that was also said in the 14th century. So 600 years later, do our manners really say something about who we are?

1:13According to William Hansen, our manners absolutely say something about who we are, but not for the reasons most people might think. William is an etiquette coach from England and the executive director of the English Manor, an etiquette and protocol coaching company. And his latest book, Just Good Manners, is now available in the U.S. So he knows a thing or two about how to use our cutlery and a lot more. Where most people think that good manners is about showing off or trying to look or sound upper class, in reality, good manners are about making other people feel like they matter, which is a very good reason why we should all practice good manners.

1:58this is a bit of optimism we should talk about etiquette yes um i am fascinated that i don't know how to put this politely i'm fascinated that you have a career

2:20thank you well my my family is is stunned i have a career uh because not because there's no need for etiquette it's because it's less it seems less of a thing in our modern day like the victorians talking about etiquette and commenting on someone's etiquette yeah and making sure that you have etiquette was a thing yeah it was very big for them uh and we are a more informal time we're in a more informal time where and i live in america where and i i was raised with the proper English upbringing, you know, where I got in trouble for, you know, elbows on the table. And I learned to use a knife and a fork with, you know, a fork in my left hand cut with the right hand.

3:04And I'm showing up in America and I see people stabbing their steak and cutting it and switching hands. And I was incensed. The Englishman in me was incensed. And have you started doing that? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I eat. Few. No, no, no, no, no, no. We can continue with this interview. No, no, no. I still eat properly. I do put my elbows on the table occasionally but not to eat no i would say it's impossible just just just just just to relax anyway so how how in this modern day and age like how did it begin like how did you announce how did you show up that's i'm going to teach etiquette and people will actually like you know what i you come here i'm going to give you money for that well it was yeah it wasn't i didn't wake up one day and go well this is what I'm going to do I I was this will come as a shock to you Simon I was quite a precocious child and my grandmother gave me a book of etiquette when I was 12 for Christmas and I to be honest didn't sort of leap at the chance to read it but she used to stay with us and would keep saying if I read any of it so I thought right I will go and find it I will open it up in the middle read a bit and then I can tell her I've read it and actually I read the whole thing quite quickly it was very interesting but it posed lots of questions i wanted to know why we had to do certain things and so i bought more books more like the history like the history like how did we end up here or what is the logic behind doing this it was all very well to give me a rule but i wanted to know what's the justification right for doing the rule you can't have a rule for no apparent reason otherwise it makes no sense and so i bought more books didn't really make a thing out of it and then when i was at school when i was 16 my one of the teachers came up to me and said oh could you teach the younger years how to set a table we need uh we need them to learn for various reasons would you do it on tuesday and i said what does that mean i don't need to do rugby and they said yes and i said sign me up and basically my career now 18 years into it has just been one long excuse to not do any sport and nobody's stopped me um i wanted at that time to be either archbishop of canterbury or a spy.

5:10Those were my options. You could do both. I could do both, maybe. That would be really good, actually. Exactly, that's a novel. But anyway, not particularly for any religious reasons, but just I like the robes, and I thought that looked fun. And I thought, how many people want to be Archbishop of Canterbury as well? Two. Two. The guy right before the Archbishop of Canterbury, and you. And me. Anyway, Lambeth Palace are thrilled that I'm not Archbishop of Canterbury or in running for it. So I went off to university, read English, and got some press coverage quite by accident in between school and university.

5:46And the company I now run, the English Manor, run by a lovely lady called Alexandra at the time, who used to work for the royal household, wrote to me and said, well, look, if you're going to do this, I've read about you doing this. If you can do it, come and do it for us, please. For the royal household? No, for the English Manor. She was ex-royal household. She set up this sort of modern day finishing school etiquette consultancy. um so i thought all right and i i read english at university so i wasn't rushed off my feet which for americans that means studied yes i studied english and um thank you for interpreting um in this by by language podcast and um yeah and i was delighted that she sort of so who goes to english manor who pays to learn etiquette we work with corporates we work with individuals we work with royal households elsewhere, all over the world.

6:39And when you say corporates, is it more like executives learning how to use, go to a dinner party and not offend anybody when you have 10 knives and forks? No, we have done that. Well, I'm very proud I know how to do that. It's very easy. Just work from the outside in. Exactly. Yes, that's it. Start on the outside and go in. I would say, I mean, with the corporate work, we do sometimes do C-suite level training with sort of people that need a bit of polish. We had someone who basically they wanted to make their CFO but was terrible at entertaining and conversation was it was could work work themselves around a spreadsheet nicely could do the deal right just had really bad table manners and bad interpersonal skills they don't anymore so were then so so how did this person what were considered bad table manners that were so noise egregious that he was turning people off that he was actually putting his career in jeopardy.

7:34Noise. Meaning we can hear it. The way he was eating. Yes. Yeah. Mouth open. Yeah. Food flying everywhere. Right. Like, you know, glass of water or wine, whatever they're drinking, and just pouring for themselves rather than pouring for other people first. Putting themselves first. And that's really what manners are about, is just putting other people first before you. It's very selfless. And I think it's an excellent habit to get into. This is good, because this is, I think, when we hear the word etiquette, you think prim and proper, you know, little finger out when you're drinking tea. Well, no, well, you do think that, but the little finger out, supposedly there's a little bit of historical evidence to show that that was a sign in Louis XIV's court to tell someone that you had syphilis.

8:17So it's got absolutely nothing to do with being posh necessarily. It was the posh people that were doing it. Because they all had syphilis. Because they all had syphilis, and it wasn't polite to sleep with someone without letting them know you had an STI. I believe we still have the same rule today. And so as a sort of a silent code, whilst they were drinking their tea at the end of a large dinner at Versailles, for example, they would flirt. And if they stuck their finger out, it was me just politely, non-verbally letting you know, well, I've got syphilis. And if you stuck your little finger out, great, because you can't get it twice, and off we went.

8:51I have to say that, if nothing else, this is the most valuable thing you've shared. because from now on anybody who thinks they're being posh and sticks their finger, I'm going to ask them if they have syphilis. Exactly. Yes, get the anti-bac wipe sound. Wipe them down. So you helped this guy. You have to use your skills of etiquette to tell somebody it's pretty awful sitting across a table from you. Yes. Because I've sat across some people who I'm thinking of somebody right now and he's extremely successful and I can't sit at a table with him because is and how so how do you even broach the subject I guess it's been broached by them sending off sending him off to the school yes I mean it's and we have regardless of who is coming through our doors uh or we go to see at the English Manor you have those that sort of have paid the invoice themselves who want to be there right easy and then you've got those you know if we're going into a bank who can't understand why they've exactly or it's a group of graduates and we're having to train them who you know there is a bit of reluctance for the first 10 to 15 minutes because they would rather be somewhere else um so yes it is it is a delicate art um and it's not one that we practice when we're not working i don't sit in front of my friends and tell them right well that's a bit noisy but you do notice things of course the official the official answer is no of course when i'm not working of course i don't notice i'm not working right unofficial answer is yes i've noticed does the world offend you the world doesn't offend me the world annoys me um there's a lot to be annoyed about that's so basic and uh people i just want the best for people basically so i get offended i'm i'm i think it's probably because again i had a pretty standard english upbringing you know yeah um and And I remember when I first moved to America and I'd go to like a coffee shop or something.

10:49Yeah. And the person standing in the line in front of me would go to the barista and say, you know, espresso, you know, I'm just like, please. Yeah. And then they would be handed it and they just walk away and I would say, thank you. And, and I, you know, I'm less pedantic about it, but it does register. Absolutely. It goes in my head, like simple pleases and thank yous. It's not, it's not, it's not pompous. And it's just, I think it's being nice to another person. I guess you're right. It's a selflessness, right? Yeah, exactly. It's acknowledging that somebody is doing something for you and that they have done something for you.

11:24And it's taken no extra effort to tag on a please or a thank you onto a sentence. It doesn't cost anything. It takes no extra time. It's a bad habit that people have fallen into, and probably because no one's pulled them up on it. So if we're polite, we'd say that the world has become more casual. If we're impolite, we can say the world has become ruder. So, A, is that true, or is it just an old person thing? And B, if it is true, why is that happening? There is a passage from some monk in the year 45 BC that has been transcribed, that a friend of a friend has on their walls, that basically translates as the younger generations are getting ruder and ruder.

12:15So I think that is sort of always going to be around. And if they were thinking that however many years ago, we're always going to think that. I actually have, I'm not Gen Z, I'm millennial, but I have great optimism in Gen Z. The Gen Z who come up to me and say hello on the street are so lovely compared to the slightly more entitled millennials. Now, I don't know whether when Gen Z get into the age that millennials are now, I don't know whether that will change or not. It could be an age thing. Could be a confidence or lack of confidence thing. But I think Gen Z are more aware of their actions and the actions of others.

12:53And really, that is all that etiquette and manners are. It's just an awareness that you are not the center of the universe and that there are lots of other people. And also not assuming that you are the most important person. And we also have to remember that these standards of etiquette, they change from culture to culture. Totally. And they change within culture. Because we're talking about English etiquette predominantly. Yeah. Which is different than American etiquette. Well, it's more uptight. It is much more uptight generally. And what I write in my book or say on Instagram or in my lessons, I would hope that in 20 years time, I'd hope at least half of it is completely irrelevant.

13:29because etiquette has got to evolve and adapt and reflect the society that is around us. It would be ridiculous if I was still talking to you about the, I mean, I was just talking to you about the etiquette of Louis XIV, but only with a historical context. But if I was saying, well, in the court of Louis XIV, you had to wear a ruffled sleeve. Simon, why are you not in a ruffled sleeve today? It would be ridiculous. And that's why I think etiquette gets a bad name because sometimes people sort of hold on to these rules and don't allow them to adapt. It's associated with your grandmother. Yes. And fuddy-duddy.

14:04Yeah. And when I was a young person, I had to do this, you will do this, even though that was 60 years ago. Yeah. And they may be right in some instances. I'm not saying they're always going to be wrong, but etiquette has to evolve. Yeah. It has to adapt. And the same with language, right? Language changes and evolves, and the OED, the dictionary, is a living, breathing animal. Yeah. a great book by the way called word by word if you're into the how dictionaries are written it's really a fun read um but and how language evolves and there's a group of people who actually decide what goes in and out of dictionaries but uh what are some of the things that you have seen adapt for the modern day that used to be unacceptable that are now acceptable even in the past call it decade um i would say we've probably softened in our or or changed in our approach to, well, there are two answers that come to mind.

14:57One, certainly in Britain, and I would imagine in America as well, we are eating so much more different cuisines than ever before. We're very lucky. British food, obviously the butt of many sort of 80s and 90s American sitcom jokes. But actually British food now, particularly in London, is probably the best in the world. You can get anything. Yeah, it's great. And it's a very good quality and it doesn't have to cost the earth either. So we're eating so many more different types of cuisine. Now, you can't transpose our sort of quite stiff dining etiquette for Western slash British food onto ramen, for example.

15:33Right, you're going to make a mess. Because it's just not going to work. Right. And so we are having to change how we eat and what we eat and sort of have these different sort of toolkits to use and to apply depending on what we are eating. So certainly our food has improved and our table manners in some instances got worse, but also in others got better. But also the way we approach matters of gender with social etiquette, I would say we are predominantly now more business etiquette focused in terms of introductions. For example, if I had Granny and Annie, Granny is 80, Annie is 18, I would in a social setting give precedence to Granny because she's 80.

16:14So I would say Granny may introduce Annie, the most important person's name goes first. If I was sitting here talking to you 20 years ago, I would also say we would look at gender. So a woman would be given precedence over a man. So I would say Mrs. Smith may introduce Mr. Jones, for example. In a business environment, someone's age, someone's gender completely irrelevant. and so we just don't look at it. We go on rank. So CEO, man, introduce, intern. I would say socially we're moving more towards that where we're looking at sort of position. We do look at age still, but position rather than gender.

16:48So age is becoming less of a factor for the social hierarchy? I think if there is a dramatic age difference, granny and Annie, 80 and 18, then yes. But generally, if we're all sort of in our 30s, we might go alphabetically, Adam, I introduce, Sam. That's so interesting because when I'm thinking, I'm thinking like how I introduce people. And I think - Well, at least you do, Simon, because so many people do things like - Well, I have this, I don't know if it's a disease or I don't know what it is, but I sometimes forget the names of the people I'm with. Yeah. And I always tell my friends, and sometimes I forget names a lot.

17:26I tell my friends when we go to social situations or even if it's work, I say, I will always introduce you to somebody. if I don't please introduce yourself because it's I don't because I don't remember somebody's name because I'm trying to avoid somebody saying to me aren't you going to introduce us Simon yeah and then I'm screwed because I don't know the names yes so uh and the worst is when there's like six people and I know I remember five names and not one I can't introduce anybody so I I sometimes make no introductions yeah out of fear of getting a name wrong yeah because that's worse right Yes, and our name is so personal.

18:00It's the only sort of thing that really belongs to us, mercifully, and so if someone gets it wrong, we can get, some people get quite peeved. I mean, yeah. Yeah, because, especially if we've said it a few minutes ago. But I'm just trying to think, like, when I do make introductions, assuming I remember all the names, I'm trying to think if there's a hierarchy in how I do it. Sometimes I just go in order, just like from left to right. Lovely. You know? Very fair. and if there's a if there's if i'm bringing somebody that i want to like this person's amazing you should all know this person i'll start with them yes but i guess that's some sort of hierarchy well exactly and you have and maybe it's their guest of honor it's that you're hosting a birthday party for them or it's some book launch or whatever then yes there's there's a logic to it one of the english wasn't wasn't i wasn't working for the company at the time but one of the english manor's very first clients the alexandra uh when it was just her running the company she went into pitch for business she'd had a bit of an in at a friend of a friend at a very well-known american bank but it was the london office yeah and uh she went into pitch etiquette training and they had sort of rather patronizingly sort of listened to her but sort of yeah well it sounds lovely thanks very much we'll keep your details on file type thing and they had then gone over to osaka in japan to negotiate some deal for a client on first day of the negotiations, the business itself.

19:25Japanese walk in, Americans walk in, and the head of the American delegation from the London Bank goes to shake hands with the number two from Japan before the number one. And they all walked out, and that was the end of negotiations. It cost them millions. Then she got a phone call. Oh, yeah, we'll have that training now. And it's always the way with etiquette training that we do. It's always most of the corporates that we work with something's happened yeah they won't take a proactive approach right and nip it in the bud some some disaster you're like therapy yes has has you're like therapy which is the relationship has to fall apart first exactly then we should go learn how to communicate with each other it'll affect the bottom line and and then and then but it's like well you know the track and what the training back in 2001 would have been when that was but what how much would have cost but it would have been absolutely nothing compared to losing that business that's really interesting what about So I also know that as the world changes, it changes the standards.

20:20So World War II in the UK really affected the class structure. It broke the class structure down quite a lot. And we know even the way the Queen spoke before and after the war profoundly changed. It became more, I wouldn't say egalitarian, but it did soften the divide between the classes. COVID. Have you seen etiquette changes as a result of COVID? Because we know we were all insanely casual. Yes. You know, we would show up on calls unshaven, hair a mess, everybody in, you know, at leisure. I mean, and I always think to myself, this is the best. I'll never wear jeans again for the rest of my life.

20:59I like wearing sweatpants way too much. Well, I'm pleased to say that Simon is sitting here in jeans. I am in jeans. They're stretchy, though. They're stretchy, but that's fine. Yeah, I think we've, COVID was interesting from an etiquette point of view, as you say. we i think we reassessed who we when we then were able to socialize with each other in real life we were certainly in britain you can tell me what it was like in america we considered who we were greeting and how we were greeting them because i think in pre-covid we had got quite particularly in london overly tactile yeah with people that we didn't really know yeah and we sort of default pulled them in for a hug yeah and it was the first time we'd met them why why the dickens are we hugging them yeah if you're going to hug them on the first time what are you doing the second time you meet them doesn't leave anywhere to go so i think when with the more consciousness of germs and our personal space and distancing i think we're like okay no maybe a handshake or even not even a handshake but maybe just well we've only just met so let's build up some affection and then maybe when we say goodbye or the second time we greet we'll do a slightly more genuine okay real etiquette question now then okay people will come up to me uh and i will shake their hand and this is like in every context social business everything right and i'll put my hand out to meet them to shake their hand and they will say i'm a hugger oh hate it okay yeah and there's no choice if you're a handshaker you are now caught in a hug and i don't know when it became what why it's not rock paper scissors it's not like hug beats handshake yeah and if i say well i'm a handshaker i'm a i'm rude so look i mean look in reality i don't really care you know but i do find it funny yeah that the hugger they can say that is like well i'm a hugger well like well then i guess we're hugging there's no there's no the trouble is i think people it's those i know it's warm it's done with warmth well yes yes but they think it's they think it's warm but the trouble is where we are and i'm glad you because it winds me up as well and i did actually want to say to someone well i'm not when they said i'm a hugger and i hated saying very poetic they sort of like they laughed i sort of said it with a smile and i got away with it but the the the those sort of people thing it's the same as for example if i suddenly we've only just met today if i was calling you sigh for example now i don't know whether you like being sorry i'll correct you or not yeah quite but people think oh i can what i'll do in order to bond with someone i'll just cut out some steps and we'll jump straight to the hug.

23:35I'll jump straight to calling us Will and Si, for example, rather than earning that affection or building up the rapport. I'll just jump straight in. And familiarity breeds content. It pushes apart. It doesn't draw you together. I know a guy who's a germaphobe, and he hugs everybody so he doesn't have to shake their hand. Well, I mean, look, I'm not a microbiologist, but I would say you're probably... No, no, because you can go past someone's head and not breathe in their face. You can hug. And he doesn't want to, because germs are primarily transferred, not primarily, but are very often transferred by our hands, touching door handles and things.

24:13So he doesn't, and it's too rude to do a fist bump anymore or an elbow bump anymore. I mean, it's not rude, it's just ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. It was a time and a place. And so, yeah, he's a germaphobe, so he hugs everybody. Okay. So everybody thinks he's really warm, but really just doesn't want to shake your hand. Genius. Okay. Well, I still think he's perhaps going to get some germs. So it's maybe reducing the number of germs. So let's take this into practical land, right? Which is, I think that, so I've told this story before, but I'll tell you because I think you'll appreciate it, of how I think about etiquette, right?

24:46And some of the things that you're talking about in a professional context, especially. In the early days of Disneyland, the Imagineers who build Disneyland had built what they thought was the perfect animatronic bird. It looked like a bird. It moved like a bird. Perfect bird. And so they couldn't wait to show Walt Disney. They bring him in. They do the demo. It flaps. It moves its head. And they're like, huh? And Walt goes, nope. No one will believe it. And they're like, what are you talking about? It's absolutely perfect. And he said, it's not breathing. And they said, no one will notice. And he said, people can feel perfection.

25:21And he's right. People will look at it and be like, I don't know what it is, but there's something wrong with that bird. It's not real. Right? And I think etiquette is the same thing, which is, they're very subtle sometimes. It's the pleases and thank yous, for example. It's very small, but for some reason, it will elevate the way people think about you, the way they regard you, even though they may not be able to say the reason why. And I think that for me is the reason to learn some of the things that you talk about, and especially in a professional context, is because if it's a job interview, especially, or if you're meeting somebody very senior for the first time in a large corporation, you will stand out for these little things that they won't be able to put their fingers on.

26:05what are some of the specific things that you have seen that a lot of people get wrong that are so easy to correct and get right that will have this impact that will that will be the the breath of the bird that will make you stand out even though you know nobody could actually say the reasons why pleases and thank yous amongst them please and thank yous take it yeah that that's that's a that's an easy one um really ask in in conversations when you are having a conversation at a networking event, cocktail party, whatever it is. Certainly, and it probably is the case in America still as well, but in Britain, a lot of people, you'll be doing a story about a skiing accident, for example, that you've had.

26:44You were skiing 10 years ago, you had some accident. And most people will listen to that and will be thinking, what story do I have about an accident I've had on holiday? Rather than, let me ask you a follow-up question. Let you have that moment. whereas people are obsessed with trying to match or beat the story and it becomes competitive because we have become so insecure i think generally people feel that they need or they feel they need again to bond oh to bond i've got to say that i've gone through the same process as you that's very tiring ask a follow-up question so focus on also i mean i don't love talking about myself i like finding out about other people so ask about the other person ask a follow-up question and it's particularly if you've got a client the client's not massively that fussed what you did at the weekend but the client would love to talk about what they did at the weekend so just ask them questions you you i wish you were around many years ago because you basically described why my dating failed for most of my 20s yeah and maybe 30s uh is i did the opposite which is somebody told me about something they did and i wanted to match it to show look we're the same Yeah.

27:54So the intention was still I'm trying to create common experience. I'm trying to show you that. So it was a good intention. I wasn't trying to I wasn't competitive. I wasn't trying to one up. It wasn't like, well, you did that. I did this. It wasn't that at all. But it was it was hear about your experience. Tell you about my similar experience. Yes. And I've only learned now many years later that that's awful. And and though well intentioned, it was completely wrong. So I think what you're saying is very valuable in a professional context, even more valuable in a dating context. And especially when you're a little socially awkward or insecure and we don't know.

28:29And I think this is such good advice, which is be the journalist. Be curious. And I think it goes back to what you said before, which is being polite and demonstrating good etiquette is just remembering to put the other person first. That if they're telling you a story, let's put the spotlight on them and their story for a while. and since i've learned that maybe a year ago since i've learned that here's what's happened i'm now investigative and asking questions and asking follow-ups to the point where they say i've been talking about myself for far too long tell me and now they want to know about me rather than me trying to tell them about me i'm sorry this is lovely that's lovely what happens when both people are trying to be polite stalemate you look you can talk about yourself you absolutely can talk about yourself that you know that would be ridiculous to never share anything and actually you you do want to share a bit because otherwise you come across as a little bit closed uh and and a bit we might suspicious yeah yeah why are they not saying anything about themselves but as long as you have because they're a spy in the archbishop of cantony that's why exactly but as long as you have sort of focused on them for 80 % of the time, I think it's okay.

29:47This episode is brought to you by True Classic. And this ad won't sound like regular ads, because it's not. Instead, I sat down with Ryan and had an hour long conversation with him. And we pulled out some of the best clips so that their ad is real content. I hope you enjoy. We have a basically an unlimited budget for surprise and delight for people. Well, give me some examples. So a guy in New England, I found out he was a big Tom Brady guy. He had a terrible experience. I got on the phone with them. I worked it out. I went on Amazon and found a signed Tom Brady poster. It was easy. I could mail it to him.

30:20It meant so much to him. This is genius. A customer has a bad experience. Yeah. You get on the phone to personally apologize. In the course of that conversation, you learn he's a huge Tom Brady fan. Yes. You don't just send them like what most companies would do, like, hey, I'm really sorry you had a bad experience. Here's a bunch of our product. Yeah. You go and find what he actually likes and send him what he actually likes. Yes. Nothing to do with your company or your product. Nothing. Just to say, we screwed up. I'm sorry. Here's something I know you want. Yeah, because, like, this is how you got to show up for people.

30:52You got to go way overboard. You know, even if they never buy us again, it's got an amazing ripple effect.

31:02My other sort of number one rule for people in relationships and something that I had to tell my husband to do is that, you know, obviously you're spending your life with them. You probably have heard the anecdote a thousand times before. When somebody goes to tell the anecdote at a party, well, I've got a fantastic anecdote about this. What the husband, wife, spouse, partner should not do is go, oh, this one again. Out loud. They might be thinking that. Absolutely. you've described my whole career just repeating the same six stories yeah but we're all it would be rude for your friends anyone you're in a relationship with to go oh this one again you're flagging to everyone else that is about to hear it that this is not you it's not a good story or it's not new because I'm very good at telling stories to sound like I'm telling them for the first time you've never told that Walt Disney Bird story before thousands of times Yes, no, I know.

32:01And I'm very good at telling the stories that make it sound like the first time. So if somebody ruins the trick, it's like revealing how the card trick is done. I know there's a trick behind the card trick. Yeah. But the joy is that I don't know the magic. Yes. Let me think that it's a miraculous feat of, you know. Or the other thing I think partners do, I mean, thankfully my husband does not do this, but jump in with the punchline just before you get into it. Oh, they ruin it for you, yeah. Or I might have done a, I'm workshopping a new punchline or I've finessed it. What are some other common mistakes that you see, again, going practical?